The Best of SBS: NBA's Toughest (ft. Stephen Jackson, Joakim Noah, & Baron Davis)

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

The Best of SBS: NBA's Toughest (ft. Stephen Jackson, Joakim Noah & Baron Davis)

January 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

Live from the Elser Hotel in Miami, Dan Le Batard and crew (with Chris Vernon leading the interviews) deliver an in-depth exploration into what it means to be "NBA tough," digging into the careers, mindsets, battles, and scars of three of the league’s most respected, raw, and complex figures: Stephen Jackson (Stack), Joakim Noah, and Baron Davis. The conversations focus on mental and physical resilience, infamous league controversies, personal growth, and the hidden costs of being a public competitor. Listeners are offered rare honesty, vulnerability, and memorable storytelling from each guest.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Stephen Jackson on the "Malice at the Palace" and NBA Toughness

• Revisiting Malice at the Palace ([02:05]-[07:56]):

  • Jackson recounts the infamous 2004 Pistons-Pacers brawl from his perspective, defending his actions as protecting a teammate rather than instigating violence.
  • He highlights the double standard in NBA discipline and the shift in media coverage from pro-player to anti-player immediately after the incident:
    • "Footage don't lie. That's why when they came down so hard, I'm like, bro, I didn't... He was assaulted twice. And y'all didn't say nothing about neither assault. So I'm... if I'm wrong and you fining me $3 million for defending my team... I know what this is. It's not about right or wrong." (Stephen Jackson, [05:54])
  • Jackson discusses the fallout and how the NBA used the brawl to advance cultural changes, including the dress code.

• Media & League Response:

  • The players were initially defended but then demonized overnight, fueling a narrative about player conduct—an example, Jackson argues, of broader societal biases against Black athletes.

• Legacy and Loyalty ([07:56]-[10:21]):

  • Jackson speaks to his street credibility but emphasizes a deeper loyalty and integrity that fans and media barely see:
    • "You see that I'm a solid guy, but I'm so much more than that... The people around me need to know that. And that's how I live my life." (Stephen Jackson, [07:56])

• Best & Happiest Seasons ([10:21]-[11:43]):

  • Golden State (Warriors) was his happiest team because of the rare "family" chemistry:
    • "We showed up to practice together. We left practice together… went to dinner together, went to the strip clubs together… We were a real family." (Stephen Jackson, [11:06])
  • Best basketball year: Charlotte. Funnest: Golden State—playing with joy, unity.

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Joakim Noah: Pain, Identity, and Recovery

• Mental & Physical Toughness ([13:44]-[17:56]):

  • Noah describes his hyper-competitive edge as rooted in fear of inadequacy and losing. Physical conditioning and emotional endurance were tools to overcome personal doubt.
    • "I played with a lot of fear… just always feeling like, did I train? Like I don't think I trained enough." (Joakim Noah, [13:44])

• Public Struggle with the Knicks ([14:53]-[20:13]):

  • Noah speaks candidly about failing in New York, the depressive aftermath, and losing confidence after injury and public scrutiny.
  • He explores the lonely, very public journey from hope to rehabilitation:
    • "I failed miserably in a very public way and you know, I lost my confidence... how was I going to find that joy out there on the court?" (Joakim Noah, [14:53])
  • He details his unconventional recovery: underwater training with Laird Hamilton and Gabby Reese, spiritual quests (ayahuasca therapy), and finally, rediscovering joy in basketball with Memphis:
    • "In November, when I signed with the Memphis Grizzlies... I'm really proud of that because I came back from a long, long, dark journey and I was able to appreciate the game and just being out there." (Joakim Noah, [20:13])

• Vulnerability, Camaraderie, and Modern Players ([27:38]-[29:23]):

  • Noah values peace of mind and fostering unity but laments the modern NBA’s "too-friendly" culture, believing it stifles competition:
    • "Like you're trying to get to the top. He's trying to get to the top. Like, stop being friends. I don't like that shit." (Joakim Noah, [28:40])

• Dealing with Failure and Moving On ([32:06]-[35:16]):

  • He admits he’s not fully healed from his career “wounds,” viewing both losses and championships with deep emotion that still lingers:
    • "Those losses, I'll live with that for the rest of my life, but I'll be able to talk about it. But I'm not going to lie and say I'm all the way healed. No." (Joakim Noah, [32:12])
  • Noah stresses the importance of adapting to life's highs and lows as an athlete retires from competition.

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Baron Davis: Dysfunction, Expectation, and Ownership Realities

• Inside the Clippers Dysfunction ([37:16]-[50:31]):

  • Baron Davis opens up about the toxic environment under Donald Sterling, critiquing both ownership and the way the story was told by the media:
    • "Donald Sterling is not a racist. He is a hate. Everybody is... He don't understand blacks, Latinos, Asians, white people... he's delusional." (Baron Davis, [39:19])
  • He notes the emotional toll on the entire organization: staff, players, and the sense of being expendable, unappreciated:
    • "The team was just a tool. The players were just tools, right? They were never to be understood by him." (Baron Davis, [40:44])

• Media & Culture Critique ([37:50]-[43:07]):

  • Davis calls out media figures for exploiting stories, and slams performative activism during the Sterling scandal and subsequent boycotts.
    • "If you cared that much, if you was standing up to racism... why the fuck didn't you not play that game? Suckers. They weak... it was weak." (Baron Davis, [41:37])

• Expectations and Disappointment ([44:42]-[46:54]):

  • Davis discusses how he expected the Clippers to become contenders, only to have his plans derailed by Elton Brand's departure and organizational chaos.

• Hopeless Work Environments ([47:22]-[51:46]):

  • The first day on the job, Davis is warned about the owner’s behavior. He reflects on the constant backstabbing, lack of direction, and absence of joy. Competent people had no power:
    • "[W]hen you have leadership like that, it's a circus... I've never seen... I did not think that the NBA, like an NBA team, could be ran like that." (Baron Davis, [48:43])

• Contrast with Golden State and Artistic Freedom ([52:59]-[54:09]):

  • Playing with the Warriors was about freedom and creativity; the Clippers stifled all that.
    • "There's gotta be freedom. For me, it's gotta be freedom, artistic freedom, freedom, creativity. And, like, I know what I'm doing out here... I can't play [if you undermine it]." (Baron Davis, [53:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Stephen Jackson

• "I'm the first one there. And as you see... I was going up there to help my teammate... I was forced to throw that punch. It wasn't... I was going up there to punch people." ([05:10])
• "They was trying to paint a total pitcher of me and Ron... I know the reason now because the picture they wanted to paint and what happened after that, dress code, all that other stuff. We just gave them ammunition to do it quicker." ([09:26])

Joakim Noah

• "You realize this thing goes on with or without you quick." ([29:08])
• "You have to go out there and go through the fire yourself first. And when my body wouldn't let me, there was a lot of lessons to be learned from me for sure." ([17:56])
• "Peace of mind is... just. It's the most important thing is can you be comfortable in the uncomfortable moments. That's what it's always been about." ([27:38])
• "You actually were actually very fragile beings and vulnerable beings... It's deep, you know, and, you know, that's why it's all about how you deal with the highs and how you deal with the lows." ([29:23])

Baron Davis

• "Donald Sterling is not a racist. He is a hate. Everybody is... He's delusional." ([39:19])
• "Everybody else are opportunists in this situation. So when opportunists are mining, I get out of that." ([43:07])
• "How do you go to the gym and not play basketball? Like, we wouldn't scrimmage. We would just talk, run through plays. It became like, who the fuck wants to be here?" ([50:31])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:05] – Stephen Jackson on Malice at the Palace: first-person breakdown of the brawl and its aftermath
• [05:54] – Jackson’s justification, media reaction, and league discipline
• [10:21] – Stephen Jackson: happiest year as a Warrior, best playing year in Charlotte
• [13:44] – Joakim Noah on fear, preparation, and mental struggle
• [14:53] – Noah’s New York Knicks experience: public failure, injury, and recovery methods
• [20:13] – Noah’s journey "back"—rediscovering joy in Memphis, importance of healing
• [28:40] – Noah on competitiveness and criticism of modern NBA culture
• [32:12] – Admitting not all scars heal; living with losses and emotional baggage
• [37:16] – Baron Davis on the toxic Clippers era under Donald Sterling
• [41:37] – Davis on performative activism in the NBA and the failed team boycott
• [46:54] – Davis: Elton Brand departure, organizational dysfunction
• [48:43] – Davis recounts surreal, circus-like Clippers training camp and workplace
• [50:31] – The effect of chronic dysfunction on player morale, competence, and hope

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Tone & Atmosphere

Candid, reflective, sometimes raw and bitter but also marked by humor and hard-earned wisdom. The guests share stories with striking vulnerability and insight, pushing well past clichés to address the human cost of being “NBA tough.” The episode balances confronting hard truths with camaraderie and personal resilience.

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For Listeners

This is essential listening for anyone interested in basketball culture, mental health in sports, and the real stories behind the game’s public dramas. The episode goes far beyond surface narratives, giving you the emotional reality of living—and surviving—in the NBA’s toughest moments.

Transcript

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

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[Chris Vernon]

Your planet is now marked for death.

[Joakim Noah]

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[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

We will protect you as a family. Line them up.

[Joakim Noah]

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[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

That is fant and critics say it's.

[Joakim Noah]

One of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four first steps now streaming on Disney.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Rated PG13 what time has it been?

[Chris Vernon]

It's clobber time. Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm very excited to do this one for a number of reasons. Stephen Jackson played 17 years in the NBA. Unrelentingly authentic, an NBA champion. But so how things escalate. You're surrounded by paying customers, and at some point here, Ron Artest gets hit with a drink. So take me through this from your perspective, what it is that you're seeing and what it is that you're remembering here through this.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Right at this point. Pause. Can we pause it?

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, pause that real quick.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

At this point. So right now, Ron has come on the table. His therapist told him when something happens like that during the game, go somewhere, lay down, or, you know, just try to put some headphones on the block. He did exactly what they told him to do. But at this time, Ben, they. Ben is walking off. Ron is laying down. But it's the players on the other team that's still talking and still pushing and stuff. So during that time, I walk around y' all a little bit ahead, but I walk around, and I pull out my jersey and square up with Rip Hamilton and Lindsey Hunter. Rip Hamilton is a friend of mine. This is a good friend of mine. I just told we was a McDonald's game together, but it's just a rivalry at the time, so we willing to go at each other.

[Chris Vernon]

You did pull out the shirt, and I squared up.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

I squared up. If that's what y' all want to do. Like, we trying to break it up. Y' all still talking, so let's fight. If that's what we. That's what we gonna do.

[Chris Vernon]

You were the only one who pulled out his jersey, though, and squared up.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Like I need to be. I need. You know, if this is what we about to do, right? So I seen that. That's wasn't really what it was. They really didn't want to fight. You know what I'm saying? I'm glad. Cause I didn't want to have that bad blood with Rip. I love Rip Hamilton. That's my real friend. And so I ended up going back to, like, by Ron. And by that time, as I'm going back, the beer comes, and now you can play the tape. Ron goes first. I'm right behind him. But as you see. Pause it, pause it, pause it. As you see, this is another reason why I should get. I should feel like I should get my money back. If I was going in the stands to just throw punches, it's 100 people that I jumped past that I could have punched. I went up. I'm up about eight, nine rows. I didn't hit nobody on my way up there. I didn't push anybody. And going up. What you're gonna see me. I go straight to Ron to grab Ron. I don't punch nobody. I'm on my way to grab Ron. Look, I grab him. As soon as I get to Ron, I put my hand on him. A guy throws another beer in his face, I'm like, come on, bro. All bets off after that. You ain't finna get away with that. And that's when I was forced to throw that punch. It wasn't. I was going up there to punch people. I could have went up there. I could have punched people on the first four or five rows. I'm going up there to help my teammate. Cause my coach is going. My coach got him.

[Chris Vernon]

Yeah, that's where it happens. You're the first one there to punch.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

I'm the first one there. And as you see, like, I was really going to finish. I was going to go stump him out. But my. They grabbed my jersey. My teammates grabbed me, which I'm glad they grabbed me because I was. I was going to hurt that dude. I was really. Because I was that. I'm in Port Arthur right now. I'm not at the. I'm not in Detroit. I'm in Port Arthur, Texas, at a club right now. And I'm in survival mode, as you see. Take everybody grab. I'm in survival mode. I'm in survival mode. But what if everybody grabbing me, though?

[Chris Vernon]

Well, they know who's dangerous there.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Everybody's grabbing.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, but because you're the most enraged.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

And furthermore, my brother, C. Look, my brother, she came. She came up there solely to get me out the stands. He came up there solely to get me out of the stands.

[Chris Vernon]

You're saying you were going up as peacemaker right up until you see a drink right in his face.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Footage don't lie. Footage don't lie. That's why when they came down so hard, I'm like, bro, I didn't. He was assaulted twice. And y' all didn't say nothing about neither assault. So I'm. So if I'm wrong and you fining me $3 million for defending my team and after it's clear that this guy threw a beer in his face. I know what this is. It's not about right or wrong.

[Chris Vernon]

I did think. One of the things I've said this before on our show that was fascinating to watch is that immediately after this fight, the coverage of the media at espn primarily, which Is what I was watching was pro player. It was, the customers shouldn't do that. And then the following morning, all of that changed in a way that I'm like, somebody made a call here. Somebody didn't like the way that was being talked about. And then the whole story shifted because all I heard was people defending players.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Mike Tirico was on air. The fans, they're thugs. It was solely about the fans. The next morning, we getting dragged. All we like, hold up, bro. We was at work. Oh, y' all not gonna talk about them throwing stuff at the bus when we leave. And y' all ain't gonna bring up none of that. Oh, we know what this about. This is about the business of basketball. This is about black athletes with all this money should be acting like this. We trying to change the dress code and change this shit anyway. You know what? We gonna use them as an example. That was dead ass wrong. And they know they wrong. That's. And. And. And that's why I'm glad that the doc. The documentary came out by no response from them or even try to fix this shit. When they see how wrong the league was, that shows exactly how they stand on that side.

[Chris Vernon]

Have you come to grips? I know we started with some of this because it seems bittersweet. This is. You're one of the few people your age who could be on the. On the COVID of what up the. All the smoke is and, you know, be with your arms crossed still at your age. And everyone knows that. It comes with a street credibility and a loyalty. The person that is there, everyone knows feels like they know what he's about, but they know this much about what you're about. If this is all they're using, they don't.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

That's not even 10% the lawyer part of me. Yeah, you see that on me. You see that I'm a solid guy, but I'm so much more than that. And you know what, Dan? I don't care if people that don't matter to me look at a different way. I don't. But because I don't come in contact with you, you're not in my daily life. I care about the people I'm around. I care about the people I work with. I care about the people that I'm willing to do things for and reach out to and do give back. I care about those people because that means something to me. Because I'm around you, because we cross each other every day. I want you to know that you have a loyal person around you. I Want you to know that you have somebody that's going to speak up for you the same way or talk about you the same way when you're not around. I want you to know you have that. I am consider myself the most solid guy ever. I want you to know that's where I stand. But if you don't, if you're not around me, I'm not going to put in that effort to let you know how great I am. Because it doesn't matter. The people around me need to know that. And that's how I live my life.

[Chris Vernon]

Is it something that has its scars on you still? Am I reading too much into it? When I say the interview I saw with you and Matt talking about this, it seemed like you were withdrawing.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

I'm still pissed.

[Chris Vernon]

Withdrawing into yourself.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

I'm still pissed. I feel like at this moment they need to be watching me and you talk about it and be like, you know what bro, we giving you y' all money back.

[Chris Vernon]

Refund.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

It's just that simple. It's dead ass. There's no way that they should have took $3 million from me for that. When I was at work, I was at work. I wasn't in the club. I wasn't just being a thug. I was defending my team. The tape shows everything. Okay. If I would have jumped over the first row and start punching fans right there. Yeah, kick him out the league, Dan. I was not that person at all. So they was trying to paint a total pitcher of me and Ron. They couldn't really do it with J O, you know. Cause Jayo had J O was an all star. He's one of the best players in the league. And Jayo wasn't in trouble. Jayo wasn't that type of guy. Stand up guy, you respect him on the court, but he wasn't that type of guy. So they cleaned it up with him. They dropped his games I think to like five or something like that. But they upheld it with me and Raw for some reason. I know the reason now because the picture they wanted to paint and what happened after that, dress code, all that other stuff. So I knew what they was doing. We just gave them. We just gave them ammunition to do it quicker.

[Chris Vernon]

What's the most fun you ever had in a season? Those eight seated warriors that seemed like fun from a. From afar. The. The eight seed that beat the one, the Mavericks. You had the championship season. This. I mean if you've got this kind of foot pain while being the captain for someone who believes in you, which. Where do you look at the 17 years and say that that wasn't was the best season.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

My happiest and funnest year was definitely Golden State. My best basketball playing year was Charlotte. I should have made the all star team that I brought that team from nowhere to in the playoffs. So playing wise, definitely Charlotte. But the most fun, the happiest I've ever been, the most enjoyment I had playing basketball on and off the court, not even close. Golden State by far.

[Chris Vernon]

Why was that?

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Because we showed up to practice together. We left practice together, we went to dinner together, went to the strip clubs together, we went to family meetings together. We did everything together. Everything to the point where we had the management of our team using some of our slang, you know, our slang words to address each other. So we were a real family. Like I said, I don't think you'll ever find a team where you got four or five guys that all got married and they all at each other's weddings.

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[Baron Davis]

Yours, yours, yours, yours.

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[Chris Vernon]

I'm excited to do this one because I really admire Joe Kim Noah for a number of different reasons. I mean, obviously he's a champion defensive player of the year, top five in MVP voting. But one of the things that I love about you is that I always thought that you were willfully tough in a way that was unreasonable, that you were Playing through a great deal of pain and also that you were a bit of an artist who was always himself in a world where I wondered how he got along with everybody because it seemed like you were built a little bit differently and the world that you occupied was an interesting one to me from afar. So I'm happy that you're going to allow me to explore it a little bit with you today. Respect that.

[Joakim Noah]

Nice to be here.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't think the average person understands the kind of shape that you were in.

[Joakim Noah]

I think being in shape was something that came natural for me. I played with a lot of fear, you know, just always feeling like, did I train? Like I don't think I trained enough. So I was always doing extra because I, I was this fear of losing, of not being good enough. I think that, you know, a lot of it before the injuries and the pain, it's like, it's, it's really mental and it's like what gets you there? What's what emotions help you get through the, the hard part, the tools.

[Chris Vernon]

What are the emotions that help you there? Because you're talking about, you mentioned self work. I don't know when you started doing that. I don't know that the athletic space allows for it very much if you have to be singularly minded about like getting ahead. Did you mention that phrase purposefully or is it, is it something that post career you've, you've had to get tools with?

[Joakim Noah]

No, I think that the self work is something that I had to go out and search for myself, you know, especially when the injury started happening. I played for the Knicks hometown, so excited to come home and you know, I failed miserably in a very public way and you know, I lost my confidence. How was I going to find that, that joy out there on the court, you know, that that was my safe haven. This is where I felt the most at peace. This is where I felt like I could express yourself. But when you're not right, it's a tough place to be. It's a very lonely place. So, you know, I was just therapist and you know, that wasn't really working. Like just like how, how am I going to figure this out? You know, it's just. So I started doing some really unorthodox training and you know, training underwater with Larry Hamilton and Gabby Reese and finding some, some new mentors. You know, they were doing all these underwater pool exercises where you would just a lot of breath work and you know, I even went to the jungle and I did everything, I did everything.

[Chris Vernon]

If I may, because when you talk about your 2018, I don't want to be presumptuous, but I thought from afar that must be very hard, what he's going through, going back to New York with expectations, got the big contract, was super coveted as the rescuer of the New York Knicks. And now his body's not working quite right. What a dark spiral that can be that the dollars don't help you with. When the dream you thought that was your body doesn't let you do it. And now your mind's falling apart. Because I imagine when you say your confidence was wrecked, you're not even just talking about basketball. If basketball is all you are, then what? Then who are you without basketball?

[Joakim Noah]

That's right. That's right. You know, New York is a different place because there's no hiding in that city. You know, I felt like a fish in a fishbowl. You know, it's like you're walking in the street, something you've been doing your whole life. And now all of a sudden it's just everybody's stopping you in the streets, wanted to talk to you, what's going on. But you know, when it's going well in New York, it's the best. But when it's. When it's shit.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Yeah.

[Chris Vernon]

When you feel like you're failing, right. If your self worth is wrapped up in your work and you're walking around and your body doesn't work right. And you want to be known as more than just the body, but you also are using, you're squeezing everything that body will give you out of trying to please these people. Being unreasonable to your body because you. Like I associate you with pain. Joking. Do you know how weird that is? I'm only watching you. But I associate what you were doing at the end to physically hurt. Because it seemed like I was, I was watch you and I'd be like, holy shit, this man is so willful.

[Joakim Noah]

Yeah. I would probably do anything to be out there on the court. And you know what I had, it was some tough lessons during that time, but it was like my mentality, I gotta fight through. And that was the way I was able to, you know, inspire my teammates to play harder as well is just, you have to go out there and go through the fire yourself first. And when my body wouldn't let me, there was a lot of lessons to be learned from me for sure.

[Chris Vernon]

I didn't know whether the man in New York, the man who chose to go to New York, had regrets about going to New York because it became a different thing than whatever it is his identity was in Chicago, which was more warrior, more success than whatever the best version of yourself publicly was.

[Joakim Noah]

Yeah, but I think that, like I said this, that was, it's like that pain that I had to carry throughout my New York experience. It made me better. It made me realize that it's not all about what people think about you. Like, fuck that, you know, you have to move on from that eventually. You know, like the Persona that I had in Chicago, was it different than the one in New York? Like, absolutely. Did I want that back at all costs? Absolutely. But it taught me a lot as well. Just like, okay, this is, this is actually not making me happy anymore. You know, this chase for, you know, for the glory, that's not what it was anymore. So I had to dig deep. I got kicked off the Knicks. You know, I got into it with the coach and I got suspended for drugs. You know, that's all like really heavy stuff on a, in a really, really public platform, but I was able to. And I. When I got kicked off the Knicks, it was February. I didn't make a team. I didn't make a team until November. So for six months I was free. I was getting paid a lot of money and I was free to figure this out for myself.

[Baron Davis]

And.

[Joakim Noah]

It was deep, man. You know, I traveled, I went to, I did ayahuasca therapy. I mean, I just, I went all in and I trained every day by myself. It was not a coach telling me practices at this time, you know, No, I got a trainer. I went to go work out at Laird and Gabby's every day. Sauna, ice, whatever I could find to help me get to what I needed to where I needed to go. And you know what? In November, when I signed with the Memphis Grizzlies, I went by myself and I was coming off the bench. It was a completely different atmosphere, different vibe. And, you know, I'm really proud of that because I came back from, from a long, long, dark journey and I was able to appreciate the game and just being out there and enjoying my 15 minutes a night. And it was just back to the simple things of just enjoying playing basketball.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't think people understand how difficult that had to be for you in that six month period. You're talking about swimming through the darkness, needing some sea therapy and needing some general spiritual healing on. Oh, shit, it's almost over. Like, I'm going to have to really fight to get back. It's. It's almost all ruined. And over. And I didn't have warning. And what do you mean? It's drugs and I'm fighting with the coach, and now I've got to check in on my identity. And who am I without basketball? I. Am I going to be my own man these six months? Am I going to be like. You must be as proud of getting to Memphis as you are of winning defensive player of the year.

[Joakim Noah]

Absolutely. That's. That's deep.

[Chris Vernon]

I will explore deeper. Asking you about what it was like for you at the Loneliest in New York. You go there, Phil Jackson goes to your house to recruit you. They're making you their big free agent priority. You're going home. All of your dreams are going to be made real. You've been defensive player of the year. You're still ascending in your mind to the top of the sport, correct?

[Joakim Noah]

Well, I. I had some. A really bad shoulder injury before I signed my deal with the Knicks, so I was actually, you know, on a hospital bed. And, you know, after. After the. The surgery, you know, just doing a very, you know, the. The rehab was just, you know, rehab is very lonely. You know, guys are out there on the court doing their thing, and you're not being able to be out there and do your thing. Yeah, that was definitely some of the lonelier times.

[Chris Vernon]

It was drudgery there. But when you go to the period where you're talking about the difficulties, the mental tests that were the six months after the season, after everything blew up, where you're feeling like your career is over and nobody warned you.

[Baron Davis]

Mm.

[Joakim Noah]

You know, it's a. It's a very lonely time. It was a dark time. And, you know, I was. It's a time in my life where I probably had to do the most soul searching and find tools that could help me get through this. I remember talking to, you know, sports therapists, things that were just easy for me on the court, very comfortable for me on the court were really difficult. And, you know, I would talk to, you know, all the teams would put me on with a therapist, a sports therapist, and, you know, talking to me, and I just. It didn't help at all. I was just.

[Chris Vernon]

They don't understand me. They don't know what it's like to be me.

[Joakim Noah]

Well, they don't have to be on that court. They're not 6, 11, walk around new York City with a ponytail, where everybody kind of sees. Sees you as the reason why your team is losing. Yeah, it was very painful, and, you know, I had to go dig deeper and, like, okay, what what's my.

[Baron Davis]

Why?

[Joakim Noah]

What are the tools that are gonna help me? I felt like therapy didn't really help. The things that really helped me was, you know, connecting with the right people. I give a lot of credit to Laird Hamilton, Gabby Reese for, you know, opening their home to me that summer.

[Chris Vernon]

How did this all happen? Right, because you're talking about an aquatic training that ended up with you feeling very close to the earth. Healing, spiritual, physical limits. Like, what's the training that you were doing with them and why was it soothing you?

[Joakim Noah]

I think it. It was. It was different than what I was used to. It was an unorthodox style of training. And I remember taking these heavy dumbbells and being under, you know, 12ft of. Of water, and the first reaction was get me to the top so I can get a breath. I feel like I'm going to die. And the more I did the training, the more I realized that I had to, you know, just relax in this immense amount of pressure. Everything in my body was telling me to go up, but you have to just learn to be in a relaxed, calm state. And, you know, as. As the workouts kept going, I feel like I got better and better at it. It really translated onto the court.

[Chris Vernon]

Relaxed amid panic. Your training with one of the world's best surfers and a professional volley player, a volleyball player, you are testing the capacity of your lungs, and it is bringing you healing to test yourself this way as opposed to testing yourself against others.

[Joakim Noah]

It was very healing because it was. There was nobody out there telling me anything. No noise. It's just you and your thoughts. And sometimes the demons are between your ears.

[Chris Vernon]

How did you cope with that? How do you cope with that, the demons between your ears? Because you have told me off air here that the expressing of things is not necessarily for you. It's not necessarily the way that you've been built. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't be somebody aspirationally who'd want to be that. But free spirit isn't a lot in the speech. It's in movement and in energies and peace of mind.

[Joakim Noah]

I think peace of mind is. Is just. It's the most important thing is can you be comfortable in the uncomfortable moments. That's what it's always been about. And things that were comfortable were not comfortable anymore. So how do I do that? You just got to push yourself and navigate the. Navigate just how. How do I get my peace of mind back? I got a lot of my peace of mind being underwater with nobody talking to me under this pressure of feeling like I need to breathe and just relaxing myself and getting through it and getting the job done.

[Chris Vernon]

What do you want to see from young players today?

[Joakim Noah]

I want to see. I want to see camaraderie, you know, I want to see competition at its. At its highest level.

[Chris Vernon]

You're gonna say they like each other too much.

[Joakim Noah]

I want to say too friendly expression. Yeah, but, you know, I don't. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it. Like you're trying to get it. Like you're trying to get to the top. He's trying to get to the top. Like, stop being friends. I don't like that shit. I'm just happy that I got to enjoy playing basketball again because you realize this thing goes on with or without you quick.

[Chris Vernon]

It's hard to see when you're in it, though, right? You think you're going to live forever. When you're in those battles with LeBron and Wade and you're fighting with the cities of Miami and Cleveland, your life is going to be an eternal immortality.

[Joakim Noah]

That's what you think.

[Chris Vernon]

You're never going to get old.

[Joakim Noah]

Yeah, but I think that every kid in his twenties feels that. Feels that way. And then you get older and you realize that you're not immortal. You actually were actually very fragile beings and vulnerable beings. And it's. It's deep, you know, and, you know, that's why it's all about how you deal with the highs and how you deal with the lows. I was an emotional player, and, you know, I got to live it at the highest level. And, you know, when that the NBA was. Basketball was almost taken away from me. And I think that that was a great lesson for me because you realize these games go on with or without you.

[Chris Vernon]

I have a hard time understanding how this person fits with that person, though. They seem like two different entities in terms of how you carry your way through life and who you had to be in the furnace.

[Joakim Noah]

100%. 100%. I mean, I think. I think everybody is. It's. It's interest. Just even watching the games now is. It's interesting. You know, I watch yesterday the Knicks come back, win that game against the Sixers, and, you know, Joel Embiid's gonna have to live that one. That was a tough loss yesterday. You gotta mentally get yourself right for Game three. And I'm seeing him do the interview yesterday, head down. I was like, it's not just about how you're feeling. You're the Leader. In this locker room, you got to conduct yourself a certain way. It's different. As much pain as you're in, the other guys in the locker room can't see you with your head down like that. That's just. I'm just. And you know, it's one of the reasons why I don't love. I'm not saying that to critique. I'm just saying this as. It's just my opinion.

[Chris Vernon]

So careful, so gentle. You're saying that's your. You don't want to be. The man is a little bit broken. You don't want to pile on. On him. But you also want him to represent leadership in a way that you're. Look, you're saying, I've been there. It hurts. You gotta. You got to stick your chest out a little bit there. You got to keep up appearances.

[Joakim Noah]

Head up, head up, soldier. Come on. Big game three coming up. This isn't over. I feel for him because I know he's playing on one leg. Been through a lot. You know, just being able to play the way that he played earlier in the year and to not have your body respond mentally is. It's one of the hardest things ever.

[Chris Vernon]

And now the scars, after all these years, all of them are healed. Everything. Everything. No, not everything is healed.

[Joakim Noah]

I wouldn't say all of them are healed. I mean, I think you. You learn to live with it and.

[Chris Vernon]

And.

[Joakim Noah]

But, yeah, it's. It's not, you know, those. Those losses. I'll live with that for the rest of my life, but I'll be able to talk about it and be. But I'm not going to lie and say I'm all the way healed. No.

[Chris Vernon]

Which are the ones you're thinking of?

[Joakim Noah]

I mean, all those games, you know, ending the seasons, you know, when you're in a routine for, you know, 200 days straight, where. You know exactly where I am, what I'm doing for 200 days. And then season's over, and then, boom. You got three months off to think about it. Those first four or five days are dark. And I'll say that even when we were winning championships at Florida, you know, having, you know, winning the championship, you know, it's like the best feeling in the world. You know, you reach the pinnacle. You know, it's.

[Baron Davis]

You're.

[Joakim Noah]

The highs of living and winning a championship are so real. And then whatever goes up, it must come down, you know, so well.

[Chris Vernon]

But especially when you care the way you do, like, if it's that unreasonable, if you're treating them as near deaths. If we're talking about them 10 years later and you're saying I'm not healed and I'm never and I never will be, and having a certain pride about that, like you don't even want to be. No, I want to live in a higher plane where it hurts like that.

[Joakim Noah]

No, I don't want to.

[Chris Vernon]

You'd rather get it off of you. You'd rather find the healing tools to get it off of you?

[Joakim Noah]

Yes, absolutely. I'm working on that every. I work on it every day. And even doing this, it helps because, you know, you're talking about vulnerable moments.

[Chris Vernon]

You know, but losing's allowed. It's part of it. Like losing failure is routinely a part of it. I've talked the last couple of months here about how bad I am at treating failure as immediately, gently, as Lear. I don't do it well. I wish I could do it well. You're talking about failing publicly. You're talking about failing in a way that hurts you more than. I'm thinking about the things that hurt me. Like you're. When you talk near death about basketball games, you're talking a language I don't understand, that kind of grief. I don't care about things like that. But you're telling me I couldn't be who I was if I didn't.

[Joakim Noah]

That's right. That's right. You know, you just gotta. It's the life we chose. And you know what? That's not my life anymore. I like to try to look at.

[Chris Vernon]

Things.

[Joakim Noah]

A little bit differently. And, you know, I try not to be competitive anymore. You know?

[Chris Vernon]

You know, I've learned. I've learned late in life that that doesn't have a lot of value. It did. It served you well. Exactly.

[Joakim Noah]

But being competitive in the real world, it's. It's. It's tough.

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[Joakim Noah]

I don't even know my size.

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[Chris Vernon]

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[Chris Vernon]

I'M gonna call this man my interview nemesis because he only wants to show you so much of himself. He likes this creative process a little bit. You tell me whether I've got anything wrong here. Baron Davis, two time All Star, but so much more than that. Like, I don't know if two time all star is the least interesting part of his story, but he's got more story to tell here. I really appreciate throughout all of this the intimacy and the vulnerability. Over the course of the years, I have at various times tried to ask you some form in short interviews where you're not in a totally trusting place about the Clipper experience. At least in part because I thought to myself, my God, that could have been and should have been for him such a beautiful story that seems from afar like he expected one thing and it was the complete opposite.

[Baron Davis]

It was like, get out of that thing.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Basically, get out.

[Chris Vernon]

You're being heckled by the owner in the stands. And that person turns out to be very publicly a racist. There are all sorts of reported stories about him bringing people into the locker room and looking at showering basketball players and talking about their beautiful black bodies. You have never shared any of these stories with me because they've. Because you know, they're gonna get aggregated and you know, it's gonna be a whole thing.

[Baron Davis]

Well, the thing is like the people who are telling the stories, right, are doing it for a whack ass TV show, you know what I mean? A whack ass documentary. And you know, I'm a storyteller, so I know who was there, you know what I mean? You know, no disrespect to Ramona Cherbourne, but she wasn't even a fat. Like she was a rookie when I got there. And so I look at that and I look at people and say, oh, y' all just gonna take this story and run how y' all wanna run. Oh, y' all other athletes, y' all gonna take this story and wave a black power fist sign. Man, I'm not with none of that, you know what I mean? Because what I had to do was I had to understand this man, right, to be able to articulate what type of person he was, what type of business he ran and all the people who work for him, right? And what they had to do, right? Whether they wanted to or not, he's the boss. Yeah. And wherever their moral compass was, they was fucked too. So there's a lot of fuckery going on, right? And so when you have somebody, and I have to make sure that people know, Donald Sterling is not a racist. He is a hate. Everybody is. He don't give a shit. He don't understand. He don't understand blacks, Latinos, Asians, white people. He don't understand shit. He's delusional. And so whatever he says to you is like, whatever the fuck he's thinking. And he is beyond ignorant, right? And so when you have that much money and you use the team as your scapegoat, if you use the team as a media play for your other business, like, he wasn't a basketball fan. Basketball was just a real estate holding, right? That he probably didn't even like, but he knew it gave him fame and notoriety and shit like that. I would have to walk into the Clipper practice site and see the person in community relations bawling her eyes out. Now I gotta go to work just like she at work, but I gotta stop going into the gym, getting my shit together to make sure, like, hey, man, don't worry about it. You know what I mean? He ain't gonna do nothing. You know? Like, I became. I became now like the only person who cared about other people. Because I saw with the Clippers, there was no care. Everybody was there telling on each other, snitching on each other, backstabbing people. And the people who were actually honest and working and hard working, that were scared and terrified, they had nowhere to go. You know what I mean?

[Chris Vernon]

They had nowhere to go and people need a paycheck.

[Baron Davis]

And there was no other job coming from the Clippers back then. Ain't nobody hiring no motherfuckers from the Clippers. So, like, you are at the bottom of the bottom in the worst environment, and you worked for him. It didn't matter what the team. The team was just a tool. The players were just tools, right? They were never to be understood by him. And so when you have people like Ramona or other.

[Chris Vernon]

Well, not just that, because they were at the center before George Floyd, there's all sorts of stuff being moved around politically on black, white causes. Doc Rivers has to decide whether to boycott a game.

[Baron Davis]

Oh, man, that's bullshit, man. That's bullshit. That's bullshit.

[Chris Vernon]

I don't know the result.

[Baron Davis]

I went in the locker, I went to that game. I literally went to that game because I wanted to see what they were gonna do, you know what I mean? And when you look at that squad, none of them dudes was playing like, like, all of a sudden oh, you hella woke. Because the media say you gotta be woke now. Y' all gotta, like, if you was that woke, if you cared that much, if you was standing up to racism, if you wanted to make a statement, why the fuck didn't you not play that game? Suckers. They weak. It's weak. It was weak. Everybody in the league was ready to shut down for you. And what y' all do? Y' all turn y' all jerseys over, ran out there, got y' all ass whooped, and asked for people to feel sorry for you. And then here, you know, and then Doc standing out like, you know, like he a black figure. You know what I'm saying? So, like, for me, that's why I don't like talking about it. Because I start. Start picking apart, like, all the pieces and saying, like, the reason why I don't say nothing, because I got a lot to say, and I know what the fuck I gotta say, right? And then everybody else are opportunists in this situation. So when opportunists are mining, I get out of that.

[Chris Vernon]

I've noticed that with you, and I want to give you the space and context on all of it. But what if I were to push back with saying to you, look, basketball players for the Clippers also had to live in the same world that you experienced of. We're all employees of this lunatic.

[Baron Davis]

That's not true. That's not true. That's not. Cause remember, I went to work every day. My problem, right, with all the other players was they didn't give a fuck. You know what I mean? And I could not for the life of me figure out. But that's why, like. Well, when we had the Lob City stuff, when we started that with Blake and DeAndre, when Blake got there, it was different. Cause Blake was different. You know, he was the number one pick. Him and DeAndre were, like, on they way up. And Blake didn't give a fuck about none of it. And so I was, like, finally starting to see, like, hold on. These young kids, they just hooping. I come from an era where, like, I have to deal with owners and deal with all this shit, and, like, I'm seeing everything. They just seeing the gym, you know what I mean? And so it became, like, I started to realize, like, damn, dude, these young dudes, like, I need to be more like them. I need to care less. I care too much, right? Because I really wanted, like, I really felt like, yo, by the time I get three years with the Clippers, like, we will be where the warriors is where the warriors are, right?

[Chris Vernon]

That was your expectation.

[Baron Davis]

That was my expectation going in.

[Chris Vernon]

I wanted to.

[Baron Davis]

Don Levy was the coach, so that didn't work out well. Lord have mercy.

[Chris Vernon]

Hold on. We'll get back to this stuff for a second. But how is it that you could be so wrong? Signing, thinking that the Clippers were gonna be one thing? And is it ego? Is it because you thought you were good enough to be able to be the change you wanted?

[Baron Davis]

No. You know, Elton Brand. I was supposed to go there with Elton Brand, and then he did some punk shit and, like, signed with Philly and didn't tell me that he was signing with Philly. So I had already signed with the Clippers. So I was like, fuck it. I'm going home. I had made my mind up anyway, but I did think that the Clippers had talent at the time. They hadn't. They were literally right there. So it was like if they were playing games, you know, it was like, 8th, 9th, 10th, 7th, 8th, 9th,10th. It was all kind of like us, the Clippers, Denver, Golden State. All these new teams were trying to fight for positions. So I figured Clippers had the talent. And with Elton Brand, you know, you already got a big dude. So I can just. These next four or five years, I can just play traditional point guard shit, pass the ball. He get double team, shoot threes, and, you know.

[Chris Vernon]

So you go in thinking.

[Baron Davis]

I go in thinking, like, oh, man, I get to. We're gonna carry the team. You know what I mean? I don't have to do all the. Like, I just play point guard. Like, I really just want to play point guard and, like, run offense and shit. I don't want to do all this shit. That's why I went to the Clippers. Cause I felt like, all right, they got a big. They got two big dudes. They got Coutino, Mobley. You know what I mean? Like, we got a cool. We got cool four right now. Tim Thomas. Like, we had size and talent and dogs. We just had a coach. You know, once Elton Brandon didn't come, then everything just kind of fell out. Marcus Camby, we traded for Marcus Camby. Showed up to training camp first day, and then don't show up for two weeks. He about to retire. We gotta go. I gotta go find Marcus Camby, sit with him. He like, man, fuck this shit. Like, he. You know what I mean? Cause Denver traded him. So, like, you know, it's just all the shit that people go through. You know what I mean?

[Chris Vernon]

So right from the start, right from the start.

[Baron Davis]

I walk in and play basketball. The very first day of media. The media guy comes up to me and say, look, he pulls me to the side. He said, I know you're having fun. I'm just gonna let you know, when he comes in here, don't get upset. Don't get offended. He may or may not say something to you that'll offend you, or he may say some shit. I'm like, what are you talking. This is media day. What are you talking about? I'm making a reporter. He talked about the owner.

[Chris Vernon]

So he didn't say Donald Sterling. He just said he.

[Baron Davis]

He.

[Chris Vernon]

He might come in here.

[Baron Davis]

He might come in here and say the wildest shit to you. Be careful. Don't get upset. Y' all in a good mood, you know? Cause everybody would say, like, you know, when the season. Like, before I got there, when the season started, man, you know, it's fucked up around here, and, you know, everybody has nothing but negative energy and negative shit to say.

[Chris Vernon]

You didn't know any of this beforehand?

[Baron Davis]

I mean, I. No, not like that. Yeah, not like that. Like, all teams are dysfunctional.

[Chris Vernon]

You know what I'm saying?

[Baron Davis]

I just came from the warriors, you know what I mean? When an owner, you know, he be riding a bike, when he hung over, you know what I mean?

[Chris Vernon]

Like, everybody's got something.

[Baron Davis]

He was a hot mess. You know what I mean? But at the time. But not like this. This was like, with the warriors, like, okay, that's the owner. You know, you like him. You don't like him. It was a separation between, you know, what he does for the team versus what he do for himself. This situation was like, you cannot detach nobody from nothing. Everybody's a spy. Everybody's lying to move up or to save their face. And then Mike Dunleavy has all the.

[Ron Artest (Metta World Peace)]

Power.

[Baron Davis]

So he can literally say whatever the fuck he want to the owner or to anybody, right? About anybody. And so, like, when you have leadership like that, it's a circus. I. I remember in training camp, I was like, man, this is. I up. This is a circus. Like, I ain't never seen no shit like this. I would say that every day in practice. Like, y', all. I've never seen. I did not think that the NBA, like an NBA team, could be ran like that.

[Chris Vernon]

And you'd been some places at that point. You'd seen some.

[Baron Davis]

We had some bad years, you know. Like, I just come off a bad year with Byers Scott, where I got traded, you know, and the warriors was having a Bad year. But like, wasn't like, nothing was like this. This was like, man, Chris came in, we in practice, he grabbed a rope, lasso it around. What's the. Whatever. One of them dudes pull the shit. Just all people pulling each other, pants down, kicking water bottles over. It's like, man, this ain't no fun. This is a fucking circus shit.

[Chris Vernon]

What is the context that people would need, again, with the space to do it? Not worried about. Because I'm so appreciative that we've done this this way. And I hate for you, the entirety of your career. I have felt like the back and forth with journalists isn't stimulating enough to you. Isn't something that appeals to your greatest curiosities. What are the things that people need to know as someone who was in the fire of that, the context that they don't have. When you say that wasn't actually a race war, that was just a basketball team that was stuck under an owner that had an organization of profound dysfunction, man.

[Baron Davis]

It was just extreme dysfunction. Like, it wasn't. It was just every day. It was dysfunctional. Like, you don't know. You don't know what the fuck you're doing when you go to work. You don't know if you got anything. How do you go to the gym and not play basketball? Like, we wouldn't scrimmage. We would just talk, run through plays. It became like, who the fuck wants to be here? This is like, now you talking about stress, ptsd. Imagine can't do what you want to do, how you want to do it, but all they doing is just telling you what to do. It's like groundhog telling you what to do. And I felt sorry for the people. Like, you know, you think like, Jason Powell, he's still there, the head trainer. Like, this dude is brilliant. This dude is doing all that he can, right, to solve a problem. Because the players keep getting hurt and they keep telling him no, right? And so, like, I'm watching none of.

[Chris Vernon]

The competent people have power to do anything crazy, undermine crazy.

[Baron Davis]

And so now you gotta be. You gotta like, everybody gotta be a little sneaky to get some shit done to benefit the players. You know what I mean? Or the players have to go and, like, come back, which you don't care. You gotta come back to the gym to get extra shots. Cause you realize, man, I ain't got no shots in practice in three weeks. And so, like, the environment that was created made you not want to be in the gym. You just wanted to go to work soon. As your shit was over, you didn't want to see nobody. Like, you wanted to dis. Like, imagine being living as a basketball player and not wanting to deal with, like, it was literally like, yo, this is a job that I hate. And when you go to work, like, your other teammates and homies, like, damn, man, what's wrong with you? You all right? Like, you don't look good. And then you playing the game, they're like, yo, what the fuck? Like, what's wrong with you and your homies and your friends here in LA who showing up to the games, they like, yo, we came to see BD play. And it's like, I ain't know how to play basketball no more. This motherfucker talking to me like, I can't.

[Chris Vernon]

There's gotta be some joy around what you're doing.

[Baron Davis]

There's gotta be freedom. For me, it's gotta be freedom, artistic freedom, freedom, creativity. And, like, I know what I'm doing out here. You know what I mean? I can't play.

[Chris Vernon]

Support it. Don't undermine it.

[Baron Davis]

Support. Don't undermine. Then the next year, Vinnie Del Negro. And you gotta think we were. The Clippers were going to have success because DeAndre Blake, your cornerstones were getting better, you know what I mean? The younger guys were getting better. And then Vinny the Snake, I call him Vinnie the Snake. Cause he a lion, motherfucker. Oh, no. Vinny the Snake, you know, he was. He was just positioning to keep his job so he could, like, he knew he had a good team and he could. They started bringing in the right people, like, once I left, but I was like, damn, dude. All we needed was. All I needed was one Chris Paul squad, like the Matt, Jamal, jj. Give me that team. Like, who want to win a championship?

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