The Big Suey: Polishing David's World Series Trophy (feat. Ryan Cortes)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Suey: Polishing David's World Series Trophy (feat. Ryan Cortes)
Podcast: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz
Guest: Ryan Cortez
Release Date: February 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, the hosts delve into the intricacies of team management within the NBA, focusing primarily on the Miami Heat's strategic moves. The discussion is enriched by insights from their guest, Ryan Cortez, who provides a deep dive into recent trades and their implications for the team's future.

---

Miami Heat's Strategic Moves

Trade Decisions and Player Acquisitions

The conversation kicks off with a critical analysis of the Miami Heat's acquisition of Jimmy Butler and the subsequent trade decisions that have shaped the team's trajectory. Ryan Cortez expresses strong opinions on the management choices:

"I have to talk about something that I use religiously. Anytime I'm hosting a big dinner party, I want to impress people."
— Mike Ryan [00:12]

Stugotz humorously introduces his fishing team, segueing into the topic of unexpected team dynamics and trades:

"Believe it or not, guys, I have a fishing team. Really? I'm part owner of a fishing team."
— Stugotz [02:45]

Cortez critiques the Heat's handling of Jimmy Butler, suggesting that while the acquisition was initially successful, current management decisions may undermine Butler's impact:

"It's been an enormous success and I hope one day they do retire his number. But for now, he's dead to me."
— Ryan Cortez [10:47]

Overpaying for Players

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the concept of overpaying for players and its long-term ramifications. Cortez argues that the Heat's willingness to spend beyond the salary cap without adequate return jeopardizes the team's sustainability:

"I say, yes, it's an overpay, but the overpay is in Dalton Connect. It's the first-round pick because it is unprotected."
— Stugotz [29:43]

LeBatard adds to the debate by highlighting the delicate balance between present success and future planning:

"That's the thing. Both of you were trying to... That's the thing. Both of you were trying to..."
— Dan LeBatard [34:59]

---

Phoenix Suns and Comparative Team Management

Phoenix Suns' Organizational Challenges

The hosts compare the Heat's strategies with those of the Phoenix Suns, scrutinizing the Suns' approach to team building and financial management. Stugotz emphasizes the Suns' precarious position due to their recent trades and the potential overreliance on aging stars:

"The Suns are catastrophically run. Their owner, we've done this, of course on Pablo Torre finds out."
— Chris Cody [39:08]

Cortez and Izzy Gutierrez discuss the Suns' potential desperation in securing key players like Kevin Durant:

"Durant might be their only way out in terms of getting out from under this and trying to run this the right way."
— Dan LeBatard [40:21]

Impact of Ownership and Management Styles

The episode shifts focus to the influence of ownership on team performance. Jeremy Tache critiques the Suns' owner, Matt Ishbia, for his management style that seemingly mirrors the pitfalls of past team owners:

"He runs his organization like someone who is familiar with mortgages. He is the mortgage king of America, subprime."
— Chris Cody [39:08]

Izzy Gutierrez defends Miami Heat's ownership, praising Mickey Arison for maintaining fiscal responsibility while fostering team relevance:

"I will not hear Mickey Arison hatred because somehow he's been able to own a team and still be fiscally responsible while allowing Pat Riley to do his thing for 30 years."
— Izzy Gutierrez [44:08]

---

Ownership, Market Pressures, and Team Longevity

Pressure Points and Time Horizons

The hosts explore how ownership's long-term perspectives often clash with the immediate pressures of team performance. Stugotz articulates the challenge owners face in balancing future planning with present success:

"There are two pieces of math here. Piece of math. One is, do we have a realistic chance of success, of the ultimate success, or not to be good, but to win it?"
— Stugotz [21:06]

Cody adds that market dynamics significantly influence team decisions, highlighting how different markets respond to long-term strategies:

"Owners tend to overestimate their rationality and they underestimate how much it sucks to be made fun of."
— Chris Cody [22:40]

Luxury Tax and Financial Regulations

A detailed analysis is provided on how the NBA's luxury tax system impacts team spending and roster management. Stugotz explains the evolution of the luxury tax and its effectiveness in curbing excessive spending:

"Once upon a time, the league said, we're spending too much. We need to curtail spending. How we're gonna do it..."
— Stugotz [42:10]

Tache concurs, noting the parallels between the NBA's luxury tax and previous financial regulations in other sports leagues:

"This is what you tried in baseball was called the cone tax. And the irony is the cone tax is now the Dodgers tax."
— Jeremy Tache [43:26]

---

Humorous Interludes and Tangential Conversations

Throughout the episode, the hosts engage in humorous exchanges and anecdotes that add levity to the intense discussions on team management. A notable segment involves Jeremy Tache recounting his experience with the World Series trophy:

"I brought the trophy to Tiffany wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt, and I was stopped by. Tiffany has a ton of security in the New York store on 57th Street."
— Jeremy Tache [32:56]

These interludes serve to balance the analytical conversations, showcasing the hosts' camaraderie and playful banter.

---

Concluding Insights

As the episode wraps up, the hosts synthesize their discussions by reiterating the complexities of team management within the NBA. They emphasize the delicate balance between immediate success and sustainable long-term planning, underscored by ownership's strategic decisions and market pressures.

"You can't say that to those guys at that age. So they're trying to say, the window's open now, we need to."
— Stugotz [36:14]

Dan Le Batard summarizes the overarching theme by questioning the rationality behind certain management decisions:

"The mistake has been the mistake. Look, the question is why are decisions made and how."
— Chris Cody [28:10]

---

Final Thoughts

The Big Suey: Polishing David's World Series Trophy offers a deep and engaging exploration of NBA team management, ownership influences, and the fine line between present triumphs and future prospects. Through a blend of insightful analysis and entertaining banter, Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, and their guests provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the dynamic landscape of professional basketball.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "If you spend beyond this number, which is way above the salary cap, we're gonna institute a dollar for dollar luxury tax."
  — Stugotz [42:10]

• "The real people living real lives. You can't tell everybody we're just gonna lose and then we'll figure it out."
  — Stugotz [19:32]

• "Nobody. Can we get someone in Miami who will just admit to feeling the deep fear of irrelevance."
  — Chris Cody [13:05]

---

Timestamps Referenced:

• 00:12 – Mike Ryan's introduction.
• 02:45 – Stugotz introduces his fishing team.
• 10:47 – Ryan Cortez's critique of Jimmy Butler.
• 19:32 – Stugotz on the human aspect of team decisions.
• 21:06 – Stugotz on ownership math.
• 28:10 – Chris Cody on decision-making mistakes.
• 29:43 – Discussion on overpaying for players.
• 34:59 – Dan LeBatard on team balancing.
• 36:14 – Stugotz on the Warriors and Lakers' strategies.
• 39:08 – Critique of Phoenix Suns' management.
• 42:10 – Stugotz on NBA luxury tax evolution.
• 43:26 – Jeremy Tache compares luxury tax to baseball's cone tax.
• 44:08 – Izzy Gutierrez defends Miami Heat's ownership.
• 47:00 – N/A (marked as an ad, skipped).

---

Note: Advertisements, introductory segments, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus on the core discussions and insights of the episode.

Transcript

[Dan LeBatard]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Mike Ryan]

Hey, folks, it's Mike Ryan, and I need to talk to you about something that I use religiously. Anytime I'm hosting a big dinner party, I want to impress people. And I get food from some of the most iconic, famous places in the country. You know what helps me do that? Gold Belly. This amazing site where I order from all the time, where you can get all these amazing foods from all across our great country. They will ship free to your door anywhere in the US Of A. Gold Belly will ship you Philly cheesesteaks from Jim's or Pat's in Philly. I'm treating my office right now to a cheesesteak party from Pat's, courtesy of Gold Belly. And on top of that, I threw in some original Buffalo wings from Anchor Bar in Buffalo. You could get Kansas City's most legendary barbecue from Gold Belly. And if the pizza near you sucks, they will ship you New York style pizza from John's on Bleecker. Or Chicago deep dish pizza from Lou Malnati's. I do that all the time. Or even New Haven or Detroit style pizza.

[Chris Cody]

If.

[Mike Ryan]

If you are truly gluttonous, though, they will ship you Guy Fieri's famous trash can nachos, which, I kid you not, are the ultimate game day centerpiece. So if you're looking to host an epic super bowl party, or any party for that matter, go to goldbelly.com and get free shipping and 20% off your first order with promo code DAN. That's goldbelly.com code DAN for free shipping and 20% off your 1st order.

[David Sampson]

You know that sound? It's the sound of money hitting your Venmo account. A friend paying you back. Or maybe it's getting cash back from your favorite business when you pay with the Venmo debit card. Or it's realizing you can pay with Venmo at checkout at thousands of brands. Now there are so many more ways to answer the question, what's your Venmo download? Venmo. Today, the Venmo Mastercard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by Mastercard International, Inc. DOSH cashback terms apply.

[Stugotz]

Welcome to the Big Sui presented by DraftKings. Why are you listening to this show? The podcast that seems very similar to the other Dan LeBatard podcast? I'm sorry. I'm not gonna apologize for that. In fact, the only difference seems to be this imaging. I have been tempted in restaurants just walking past tables to grab somebody's fries. That if they're just there. That hasn't happened to you guys. I've done it. And now here's the marching man to Nowhere Fat face and the habitual liar.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Dude.

[Stugotz]

Okay, boy. You looking good, boy.

[Amin Elhassan]

Is your mind always wondering. It's like me when I go to sleep, right when I lay down, I start thinking about the stuff I haven't done.

[Stugotz]

For the first, like, month that I was taking Adderall, fans were, like, emailing in, saying, wait, what is happening, Stu?

[Dan LeBatard]

Guys.

[Stugotz]

Smarter than Levator. Believe it or not, guys, I have a fishing team.

[David Sampson]

What?

[Stugotz]

Really? I'm part owner of a fishing team. Wow. Yeah. But I do fish. I mean, how about we get a rod in the water? Raheem, let's go. Let's do it. Yes. It's the same guy that's supposed to be going out there golfing with me.

[Chris Cody]

Right?

[Stugotz]

One question was, like, if you could change closets for the day, who would it be with? I said, the Pope. And I said, I'd love to. I love his look. I love to be able to anoint the Pope's look.

[David Sampson]

You should have dressed like the Pope today. That would have been great.

[Stugotz]

The headsets would fit better than that.

[David Sampson]

Well, no, the Pope has the.

[Stugotz]

Oh, you're right. I forgot about that.

[Amin Elhassan]

No, my tattoo. I got to show you my tattoo right here.

[Stugotz]

Wow. So that's the 2025. Even though the game hasn't been played yet, you have so much confidence that you.

[Amin Elhassan]

And then also, I always. I got.

[David Sampson]

I'm reading between the lines. Here's two guys. And Ed didn't say this. He'd never say this, but he kind of said, a little bit easy for Christian. He had all these genetics. I mean, all he had to do was fulfill his destiny. Right. Unlike Ed.

[Chris Cody]

Yes.

[David Sampson]

So Larry Zonka got stuck at sea one time, like, in the Bering Straits or something. They had to come and rescue him with a helicopter.

[Stugotz]

He did. For real.

[David Sampson]

I think Rob Conrad was out, like, on. On a boat by himself. Fell off the boat?

[Stugotz]

No, the boat was drowning. He had to swim to shore.

[Amin Elhassan]

Mike Tyson scared me.

[Stugotz]

When Mike Tyson tells you to do something, you do it.

[Amin Elhassan]

I got up.

[David Sampson]

Yeah, yeah, maybe Buddy system, do something. Don't go out by yourself on the boat. And maybe be careful when you're out fishing, because the franchise does have a history of problems on boats.

[Stugotz]

Well, guess what? I know two guys that's going to join me. Yes. I'm going to leave Levator. You and I are going to start a show. Yeah.

[Amin Elhassan]

No, we are look.

[Stugotz]

About lying.

[Amin Elhassan]

I do it to protect them, not me.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, and sometimes I lie just because I just want to be a part of the conversation.

[Amin Elhassan]

How long you been?

[Stugotz]

Oh, my whole life.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yeah, I've been lying for 31 years. That's how old I am. 31.

[Stugotz]

How much longer are you thinking you want to play? I mean, I got like. And whenever these wheels fall off.

[Amin Elhassan]

Back to you guys.

[Stugotz]

This has been unbelievable.

[Amin Elhassan]

And then behind us saying, wrap it up. So that's what we going to do. We could have went all day.

[Stugotz]

Listen, this is my new co host, Leardard.

[Dan LeBatard]

Bye.

[Amin Elhassan]

Back to you, Dan.

[Stugotz]

This episode of the Dan Leitard show with Stugots is presented by DraftKings.

[Dan LeBatard]

DraftKings. The Crown is yours.

[Stugotz]

Who's editing?

[Chris Cody]

I don't know.

[Jeremy Tache]

He was pitching something. I bet there was.

[Stugotz]

At Radio Roll.

[Chris Cody]

I came in with the stated goal of having more fun than everybody in New Orleans. We're a split squad this week and I. I don't know if we can have more fun than Stugatz was having. Fake laughing at Sean Stellato, agent for Tommy DeVito.

[Stugotz]

Oh, I thought this fake laugh was funny, Marco. Where they're having a fake laugh off. I was like, that's amazing.

[Jeremy Tache]

That guy was Christian McCaffrey's dad. For the record, was.

[Stugotz]

That's easy. Ed McCaffrey.

[Mike Ryan]

Ed McCaffrey.

[Chris Cody]

Ed Mccaffrey in the Big Easy. How about that NFL Blitz legend?

[Jeremy Tache]

Was that guy DeVito? Was he wearing a championship ring?

[Stugotz]

I think he's wearing his Italian sports. Italian American sports Hall of Fame ring.

[Jeremy Tache]

That is a great. You found out. You just did Pablo some justice.

[Stugotz]

We interviewed him.

[Jeremy Tache]

He was wearing the same ring.

[Stugotz]

No, it was like right before. He was about to be enshrined in the entire.

[Chris Cody]

Of course you interviewed him.

[Stugotz]

Yeah. Man, this show. We did it.

[Chris Cody]

I know, of course. Look, shot Cortez. Is he. Is he here yet?

[Stugotz]

No.

[Chris Cody]

Speaking of. Speaking of attention seeking gas bags whose throats I want to hear noises from Cortez.

[Stugotz]

Go on.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, that was. That was not a great intro. There you are.

[Ryan Cortez]

What the hell was that intro? You're a professional podcaster and journalist. I'm embarrassed by that last 20 seconds. I don't know what you're doing.

[Chris Cody]

Where is. Where is your PJ Tucker jersey?

[Ryan Cortez]

Oh, my God. So I just want to.

[Chris Cody]

Where are you?

[Ryan Cortez]

Don't worry about where I am. It's. I'm in Japan.

[Stugotz]

Nice, beautiful background.

[Ryan Cortez]

David Sampson was right. The text I sent you was alarming. It was not meant for air. I Sent it to you at a time where I did not know we had PJ Tucker. That's what happened. And then I found out we got PJ Tucker and everything's okay. Like, today's a good day. I don't like how you guys are talking about this trade. Not only did we get PJ Tucker, we got a lockdown defender. Do you want me to read you some stats?

[Stugotz]

So, PJ Tucker, you just told us.

[Ryan Cortez]

Well, no, no, no. Not just P.J. tucker. I'm going to read you some stats. These are players shooting numbers when guarded by Andrew Wiggins. Luka Doncic, 5 for 16. Anthony Edwards, 7 for 21. SGA, 5 for 12. Donovan Mitchell, 5 for 12. Cade Cunningham, Tony's favorite, 0 for 6. LeBron James, 3 for 9.

[Stugotz]

Not bad.

[Jeremy Tache]

Boy, those are lockdown. This is a big sample size.

[Dan LeBatard]

Well, those are all individual matchups this year as well, and. Well, no, I mean, the sample sizes are obviously small. It's more the idea of going up against the other team's best offensive player, having someone in that starting line of this line. You know what? I don't want to team myself with Cortez.

[Chris Cody]

He's doing something. What I can't get over is I'm not doing anything when Cortez is. What you're doing is moving around, revealing that you're not in Japan.

[Stugotz]

What?

[Ryan Cortez]

It's a Japanese. What are you talking about?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Don't move.

[Chris Cody]

Don't.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Stay perfectly still.

[Stugotz]

Can you look? Look at his glasses. Does that look like the glasses of a man who lives in Japan?

[Dan LeBatard]

I do love those.

[Chris Cody]

Glasses are an incredibly effective upgrade.

[Ryan Cortez]

How is anyone going to score at the end of a game when it's hero, Wiggins, Jovic Bam, and Khalil Ware. How are you going to score a.

[Jeremy Tache]

Point if they have a lead? They won't need to.

[Ryan Cortez]

It's a good point. We're going to have to score on our own, but defensively, it's in the making.

[Jeremy Tache]

It's starting to make hero, though.

[Chris Cody]

I'm sorry, Cortez. I spent most of this week reading your posts, and they were all about how, you know, Pat Riley doesn't have it. Jimmy Butler, you are on his side. This is. Come on.

[Ryan Cortez]

It's been a wild swing of emotions. I have, in the past 24 hours, tweeted about Pat Riley needing a new job. I have blocked Jimmy Butler on Instagram, and I do think Pat Riley's at fault here. I think he should have either paid Jimmy or traded him a year ago, bringing him into this year with no new contract, no new teammates that are any good, not a good idea. But now that we're here, I mean, Andrew Wiggins, go ahead.

[Stugotz]

Amit Cortez, I want to ask because I have to know what your emotional level was like for those few hours where it was, oh, it was Durant. Durant for Jimmy Butler, straight up.

[Ryan Cortez]

Where it got so heightened was I was texting people, would you trade Hero for Durant? Would you trade Bam for Durant? That's how bad I wanted Kevin Durant. I was willing to trade Bam out of bio for him. So, yeah, Pablo was asking, where were you when you heard the news? To me, that was an interesting question. I was watching the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City reunion part three, and I got the news about I believe.

[Chris Cody]

You produced my show.

[Ryan Cortez]

And it was I. I had to turn off the show because what I was trying to do is read text while watching the great reunion. I couldn't do it, so I had to turn it off. But that's what I was doing.

[Chris Cody]

All I'm seeing is Ryan Cortez tweets from 2022 where he asks @kdtray5, have you ever had a guava pastelito?

[Ryan Cortez]

That's not how you pronounce that. Guava Patalito.

[Stugotz]

Ryan Cortez, Minister of Information this is ridiculous.

[Ryan Cortez]

Amin said something interesting to me, too, where he was saying, jimmy and Bernie are masters at making a mess of this. Great point. I think in retrospect, if Dame Lillard had done this playbook in Milwaukee, not only did the Heat get him, but then domino effect. Jimmy no longer wants to leave. And then you've got Dame and Jimmy. At the time this was happening with Dame, I was saying, you need to make a mess. Dan was saying the same thing. It has to be Miami or nothing. And you make a mess of it.

[Stugotz]

That's exactly right. Damian Lillard is the example of professional do it the right way, good soldier. And what happens? He gets sent not where he wanted to be and has been generally miserable pretty much over the who wouldn't want.

[Jeremy Tache]

To be in Milwaukee? I love Milwaukee. Do not impugn Milwaukee.

[Stugotz]

I love Milwaukee, too, but that's not where he wanted to be.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

So, Cortez, can you speak for Heat fans then? And how do we look back on this Jimmy Butler era? Do we feel bad for Jimmy Butler on the way out because it doesn't seem like he'll be embraced as much, or is this kind of the bed that he made?

[Ryan Cortez]

No, I mean, look at this moment. He's a trader and I don't want to retire his number. But there you go. The zoomed out view is obviously it's an enormous success. Zach Lowe wrote two months before the Jimmy Butler trade that the Heat had the bleakest future of any team in the NBA. And he wasn't wrong. I mean, it was insane that they got Jimmy and got to finals. I mean, when they got Jimmy, as Dan has pointed out, that was supposed to be move number one. And then you get two or three guys. So the idea that just Jimmy, it was an enormous success and I hope one day they do retire his number. But for now, he's dead to me.

[Stugotz]

I don't, I don't like sober Cortez.

[Chris Cody]

Cortez put on these circular glasses and he woke up trying to be level headed. And I just am not. Look, I am. The one thing I am not today is fooled by Ryan Cortez.

[Ryan Cortez]

I'm not fooling anyone. I mean, look, I would have preferred to have Kevin Durant. I think if we get Kevin Durant, you get me, me with sunglasses. Today you get a different version. It's hard to put on the sunglasses when it's Andrew Wiggins, but lockdown defender. And what I'm really excited about is PJ Tucker. I can't lie. Like, I like PJ Tucker more than LeBron James when it comes to like what they meant to the Heat. That's a legitimate take that I have.

[Jeremy Tache]

That's not a take, that's idiocy. There's two rings from LeBron. Two. How many rings from P.J. tucker?

[Ryan Cortez]

Well, if you count the one that I count, which is they were up in the first nine minutes of game one against the Lakers in that finals and then bam. And Gordon got hurt. I count that as a ring. So technically they have one. To answer your question, I love you.

[Stugotz]

That's the Cortez I like. I don't like the Cortez. Or he's like giving me stats and stuff like that.

[Jeremy Tache]

I like the very monotone.

[Stugotz]

Well, that's his. That's Cortez.

[Jeremy Tache]

Oh, he seems medicated, but he's always medicated.

[Chris Cody]

Well, he's, he's, he's ooze tanking.

[Ryan Cortez]

Who's taking, bro? No, it is.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

No, I don't.

[Jeremy Tache]

Second round pick row on you.

[Chris Cody]

Can we get him out of here? This isn't. I don't want this anymore.

[Ryan Cortez]

I can't believe before I leave, just mention P.J. tucker more. He's one of the all time culture players. It's a long for the love of Godz 3best he put him down.

[Stugotz]

We don't need to hear this anymore.

[Jeremy Tache]

We're crushing Dan right now.

[Ryan Cortez]

He gets that floater and he just.

[Chris Cody]

Look, nobody. Can we get someone in Miami who will just admit to feeling the deep fear of irrelevance.

[Dan LeBatard]

The deep fear.

[Stugotz]

Let me just tell you that we.

[Chris Cody]

Are not going to care about talking about this.

[Stugotz]

Hold on.

[Chris Cody]

Even a fraction as much anymore.

[Stugotz]

Pablo, hold on. I got to explain this for everybody. Not just the listening orders, but also the YouTube audience because the cameras don't capture everything at the right time. You started your statement. Can we just get someone in Miami who. And Jeremy stood up like, this is my chances. And then you said irrelevancy. And he just had this look like a dog that you faked through a ball for. And it turns and it's like, wait, there's no ball. What happened? Just confused. Just utterly confused.

[Dan LeBatard]

Irrelevance.

[Chris Cody]

We're going to be talking about. You guys got to manufacture gin up PJ Tucker and Andrew Wiggins takes.

[Dan LeBatard]

It's not.

[Chris Cody]

That's what we're doing.

[Jeremy Tache]

No one cares. We've been doing it too long. We haven't spoken about Pete Alonso. We haven't spoken about the Lakers.

[Dan LeBatard]

Nobody wants to show Pete Alonzo stat. That's never happened.

[Stugotz]

Why is he.

[Dan LeBatard]

And they kicked me out of the show. No one cares.

[Chris Cody]

The Lakers have pulled off, by the way. Okay, I have another question for everybody. Raise. Raise your hand if you knew who Mark Williams was before he was traded to the Lakers.

[Jeremy Tache]

I feel like Amin, Izzy and Jeremy have to raise their hand whether they have or not just because that is what they trade in. It's their job.

[Stugotz]

He was a first round pick for the Hornets.

[Jeremy Tache]

Oh, he's not really good.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Turns out you have not seen a Charlotte Hornets game since always injured.

[Jeremy Tache]

Larry, you don't think the Lakers overpaid for Williams? I'm sorry, did the Lakers overpay?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

No. In a win now situation for the Lakers needing a center? No.

[Stugotz]

The reporting was that Luka really stressed to Palinka. I need a lob threat.

[Chris Cody]

That's kind of what Anthony Davis was saying. Hey, can we get someone to play center so I don't have to.

[Stugotz]

But you know. And it's true. If you look at everything that happened for them last year, it happened after they acquired Gafford pretty much to go alongside Lively. So he is. Mark Williams fits that bill. He's an incredible rebounder. He's a body in the paint and he's young. A lot of other names that they were talking about were guys that were kind of over the hill. And if your thing is this isn't LeBron's team anymore, this is Luka Doncic's team, then yes, you go out and you get young. You don't get Jonas Valanchunas, you don't get Nikola Vucevic. Now, the problem is what they gave up is what David is talking about, because they gave up Dalton Connect, who a lot of people like, he's a pretty good shooter. They gave up a 2030 first round pick that's unprotected and then a pick swap as well. Now, when you talk about those things, they're far enough in the future where on the one hand you can say Luka's in his prime. Those picks will never be anything.

[Jeremy Tache]

He'll still be in his prime at 29. Yeah, won't he?

[Stugotz]

What?

[Jeremy Tache]

The 2031 pick. Yes, he's how Lucas, 25? Yes, 20, 25 already. Yes, he'll be 31. Is that past his prime he's done?

[Stugotz]

No, it'll be. It'll be deep in his pocket.

[Jeremy Tache]

It'll be end of his prime.

[Stugotz]

I don't think it'll be end of his prime. I think he's. He doesn't have middle to end.

[Chris Cody]

It does depend on the question of how in shape is he gonna be now and going forward that.

[Stugotz]

But also if he's healthy, he has the type of game that is not really reliant on explosion and athleticism. So he, his game will age better than the way Russell Westbrook's game aged, by way of example. But the problem is when you have an unprotected pick that far into the future, it's a massive futures gamble. We're basically betting. The Hornets are betting. I bet you're going to F this up by the end of this, by the time this pick is available. And the Lakers are saying, no, we won't because we got Luka Doncic. The other part of this is as I look at that roster and Izzy, back me up on this. Luka, not a great three point shooter. He's a volume shooter, but he's not a great shooter. LeBron, good three point shooter, but mostly off the dribble and he's got the ball in his hands. Austin Reeves, not a great three point shooter, obviously. Mark Williams, not a three point shooter at all. So you're looking at this roster, it's like well beyond Rui Achimora and Dorian Finney Smith, who neither of whom are really volume Shooters, where's the spacing for this team?

[Jeremy Tache]

They could use Steve Kerr.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, they could use a 58 year old Steve Kerr. Get him.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

This is me backing you up. That's all true.

[Jeremy Tache]

I mean, Mark Williams 43 games in 22, 23, 43 doesn't sound like 81, but maybe there was something different. 23, 24, 19 games.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

It's box score stew over here. Look, if you've watched the games, you recognize this guy as a talent. He is exactly what Luka needs. There are plenty of people who I believe have been wasting their careers in Charlotte and he is early one of them. I'm glad he's gone somewhere else. But unless you think Dalton connect is going to be, I don't know, even JJ Redick or some sort of, you know, laser of a 2, 3 combo guard or small forward, I don't think you overpaid for that. The Lakers are one of those teams where picks don't matter, just like the Miami Heat picks don't matter. I'm going to be good all the time.

[Stugotz]

It does.

[Dan LeBatard]

That's been the thing, right? That's what's come back in this build. That's actually been what's come back to bite the Heat a couple of times is, oh no, we gave up these picks to make moves earlier on and now what do we do? Come this moment at the same time, you need to maximize. Look, you have LeBron James and Lucas.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

On the team right now. This is the moment.

[Stugotz]

So one of the most honest things that people have kind of made fun of and ridiculed, but I thought it was an amazingly poignant point by Nico Harrison was when he said the future for us is three to four years. Ten years from now, probably won't be here. And it was like, oh my God, I can't believe you said the quiet part out loud. But the reality is that is how the majority of teams do business. Like when Sam Hinkey, your beloved Sam Hinkey was doing what he was doing in Philadelphia. Our good friend Henry Abbott, who is the head editor for ESPN.com for NBA coverage, that's true. Was singing the praises of Sam Hinkey and what he was doing. And I told him, I said, henry, it's all great. The math checks out to too bad Sam won't be around to enjoy the spoils. And Henry told me, no, this ownership group is different. They're from Wall Street.

[Chris Cody]

They understand the mistake.

[Stugotz]

And my thing is, Henry, no, this thing is the same everywhere. Everyone thinks they've got the great Math until their kid comes home from school crying cuz everyone made fun of them.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

You said Sam Hinkey and Pablo has never been more lit.

[Chris Cody]

But the thing Amin just referenced, perhaps hypothetically, was actually a thing that I am told was happening in Philadelphia. Yes, that Josh Harris, his kids were being made fun of because the Sixers were that bad.

[Stugotz]

Pablo. I called it before any of it happened.

[Chris Cody]

No, no.

[Stugotz]

I told Henry, I said, look, this is how this shit works. It's not on paper. These are real people living real lives. You can't tell everybody we're just gonna lose and then we'll figure it out.

[Chris Cody]

But the real people living real lives thing, not on paper. Typically that was an argument made on behalf of the players on the team, which was missing, I think, a through line from the two episodes we've done of this show, the two days we've done, which is follow the money. The owners are the ones who have these pressure points whose incentives should be different from the people they employ to run their front office. Right. They're going to be around in 10 years, but the people they pay to run the team statistically are not. And so the question is always, what's your time horizon? How long is this going to take? Will the people who you pay to be the stewards of your organization act as if they're the stewards of a future or a present? And the conversation right now about like, in the NBA, has it ever been cheaper? Has a first round pick ever felt cheaper? Right, like just like the market value right now?

[Stugotz]

Nico Harrison said, no, it's actually pretty expensive. Only got one, but that's, but it's.

[Chris Cody]

It's a funny thing, right? Mikhail Bridges, right? 5, 5. First round is Rudy Gobert. Go down the list. That is an example of people saying, take our future. The present is what matters to us.

[Jeremy Tache]

But the Nets have been doing that. Back in the Pierce Garnett days, I think the Nets did the same thing.

[Stugotz]

Yeah.

[Jeremy Tache]

And they had it. They motors their future. It didn't work. Then they start again and it hasn't. It's forever.

[Chris Cody]

But the question of who has the ability to start again, right? Which, which teams, which markets allow that? That is a key part of that, of that privilege.

[Stugotz]

There's two pieces of math here. Piece of math. One is, do we have a realistic chance of success, of the ultimate success, or not to be good, but to win it? All, Right? Because that informs. Why, for instance, the warriors will give up a first round pick for Jimmy Butler because they think his addition can give them A realistic chance to get one more of these or to actually prove to Steph Curry we're doing everything we can.

[Chris Cody]

They're betting on themselves.

[Stugotz]

Right. That's one. The other math is the people making the decisions. Do I feel job certainty? The reason why Sam Presti can do what he did was because Sam Presti knew I'm not going to lose my job over this.

[Chris Cody]

Well, and that's where I mean again, when I talk about markets. Right. Oklahoma City versus Philadelphia. Right. Like we're talking about when. When I say who has the competitive advantage, David, of I'm in a market in which the pressure point is not going to feel as painful.

[Jeremy Tache]

Did you hear about the Chicago. The Cubs did it with Theo. They were. They lost 100 several years in a row. Baltimore is a big market. They lost and guess what? They were there, won a World Series. It can be done. You just have to do it. Right. And it's not as market related. Owners don't necessarily think the way you're saying. They don't have a GM in place saying, oh, take me through the tank and I'll fire you right when the tank's done and I'll have someone else.

[Chris Cody]

But I think the argument has been the argument from Philadelphia to Amin's point and to my experience has been owners tend to overestimate their rationality and they underestimate how much it sucks to be made fun of.

[Stugotz]

Their stomach for this. They don't have the stomach for it and nor should they. You just paid billions of dollars to be the cool kid that you remember when you talk about Mark Cuban. There's no way you could sell the team and still run the team. It's all built on that. The reason I'm spending billions of dollars on this is not because I'm going to flip it 20 years from now and make X fold. It's because I want to be the cool kid I want when people come to my parties. How do you have Usher here? Well, you know, he's a good friend. You don't get to be friends with the cool people without this cool entryway, which is I own the team. And so if you. That's your starting point. You own this property because you want to look cool.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah. The opposite of feeling embarrassed then.

[Stugotz]

No.

[Jeremy Tache]

Owners feel embarrassed, though.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

The real winner here is Chris Cody, who now knows what Kyle Anderson and Mark Williams look like.

[Jeremy Tache]

That's two. That's good work. And you were late today.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Why you got to bring that back?

[Pablo Torre]

Crush it.

[Jeremy Tache]

Still bothering me.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax guys taxes was dealing with piles of paperwork and frustrating forms and then waiting and wondering and worrying if you're going to get any money back. Now taxes is easily uploading your forms to a turbo tax expert who's matched to your unique tax situation. An expert who's backed by the latest technology which cross checks millions of Data points for 100% accuracy. While they work on your taxes, you get real time updates on their progress and you get the most money back guaranteed. All while you go about your busy day. No stress, no worry, no waiting. Now this is taxes into a TurboTax. Get an expert now on TurboTax.com only available with TurboTax Live full service real time updates only on iOS mobile app. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com guarantees friends.

[Dan LeBatard]

It'S JerBear and you know that I'm obviously a bit of the romantic type. And Valentine's Day is coming up. And for me, there's only one place that I trust. 1-800-flowers.com Every year I order stunning, high quality bouquets from 1-800-flowers that my wife absolutely loves. And this year I'm partnering with 1-800-FLOWERS to make sure you're a Valentine's hero with an exclusive offer for my listeners. Double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. It's the perfect way to say I love you without breaking the bank. Trust me, 1-800-FLowers always delivers. In the Lebatard Studios, we received a beautiful arrangement of long stem red roses accompanied in an hourglass red vase. They're timeless, luxurious and romantic. A must have this Valentine's Day. And seeing and smelling the freshness of that bouquet as I walk into work every day has me prepared for any hate that Dan may throw my way. To claim your double your roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com dan that's at 1-800-flowers.Com dan.

[David Sampson]

You know that sound? It's the sound of money hitting your Venmo account. A friend paying you back. Or maybe it's getting cash back from your favorite business when you pay with the Venmo debit card. Or it's realizing you can pay with Venmo at checkout at thousands of brands. Now there are so many more ways to answer the question, what's your Venmo? Download Venmo Today, the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. DOSH cashback terms apply.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Don Lebatard there's sunglasses in boxes today.

[Ryan Cortez]

But in my bed in the hospital.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Ending our lives all the same.

[Dan LeBatard]

St.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

It's the final nightgown.

[Stugotz]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats. You were saying, David? No. Owner.

[Jeremy Tache]

When owners walk into a room, they're cool. People take photos. They want autographs. They're not like, oh, my God, you lost 100 games.

[Stugotz]

Why? Why do they want to.

[Jeremy Tache]

They want to be near ownership.

[Stugotz]

No, no. Why do owners get autographs and give autographs and take pictures?

[Jeremy Tache]

Because people want to be near power.

[Stugotz]

Near power of what?

[Jeremy Tache]

Of any of these guys.

[Stugotz]

Hold on. These guys are billionaires, right? So before they own a team, they should have walked in the rooms and gotten photos, Right?

[Jeremy Tache]

Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer is the number one example.

[Chris Cody]

But David, David, David. There are some exceptions to. I think your point, which is, in general, these guys are living great lives. The team tends to outlast all of the temporary news cycles. They get to be a steward of the thing that is wired into people's childhood. Childhoods. But then, of course, I think of, I don't know, what's like to be John Fisher? What's it like to be, at the time, Dan Snyder? What was it like to be Josh Harris when the Sixers were tanking? What's it like to be these deeply unpopular people who get booed? Jim Dolan getting booed.

[Jeremy Tache]

Think in the garden. Jim Dolan does a lot of things. Listen, our owner used to get booed and there were negative things. Me. There were negative things from this very show. Believe me, it did not in any way go into my life.

[Dan LeBatard]

Why are we talking about the emotions of rich people?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Seriously, where did this go wrong?

[Chris Cody]

Mistake.

[Dan LeBatard]

The mistake is why do we care?

[Chris Cody]

The mistake.

[Jeremy Tache]

He's trying to lead the show.

[Chris Cody]

No, the point is a good one that Amin and I have been raising. The mistake has been the mistake. Look, the question is why are decisions made and how? It's because people tend to have a market inefficiency when it comes to. Ah, you can feel embarrassment. Our mistake was asking David Sampson to be a focus group on what it's like to feel embarrassment.

[Stugotz]

No, it's.

[Jeremy Tache]

Is that like a stew laugh?

[Stugotz]

No.

[Jeremy Tache]

What was that?

[Chris Cody]

That was a laugh.

[Stugotz]

I'm laughing at you.

[Chris Cody]

You are the person who feels the less. That's a good stew laugh. That's a pretty good stew laugh.

[Stugotz]

Or funny Marco.

[Chris Cody]

Nobody feels less embarrassment than David Sampson, is my point.

[Jeremy Tache]

I do not feel embarrassed.

[Stugotz]

You don't feel embarrassed. You're not a billionaire, though. I'm not talking.

[Jeremy Tache]

No, I'm not.

[Stugotz]

I'm talking about the guys that owns the teams.

[Jeremy Tache]

And they have thin skin, most of them, I will grant you that. But what we're really supposed to be talking about is the Lakers. And did the Lakers make this move because they're in win now? That's why they were willing to overpay in order to get again.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

It's overpaying, by your opinion. I don't think too many people are assuming that.

[Jeremy Tache]

And again, I'm the only one saying it's an overpay right now.

[Stugotz]

David.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Anybody who's seen Mark Williams play, probably not agreeing with you.

[Stugotz]

David, the overpay, I'm gonna go down your side. I say, yes, it's an overpay, but the overpay is in Dalton Connect. It's the first round pick because it is unprotected. And it is far enough in the future where we don't know what that team is going to look like.

[Jeremy Tache]

It should have gone to Dallas, right?

[Stugotz]

Sure. The point I'm making is that Rob Pelinka doesn't give a about 2030. He's like, who cares? Am I going to be around for that? Probably not. Maybe if I am cool, I'll worry about it then. But for him, the future is in the next three or four years. That's real. What Nico Harrison said applies to every general manager named Andy Ellisberg, R.C. buford, and Sam Preston.

[Jeremy Tache]

Yesterday he said, I can't wave a wand and manufacture a big man. Did anyone else see the quote by Rob Pelinka? We need a big man, but I can't wave one to make it happen. Well, of course you can wave a wand. All you have to do is overpay. And they did it to Charlotte and.

[Chris Cody]

But I got a big man overpaying, though, is I'm with Izzy. Like, I do not think this is an overpay. I think this is an example of one team needing one thing, another team needing a different thing.

[Stugotz]

My, my.

[Chris Cody]

What? Why are you holding your phone?

[Jeremy Tache]

Sorry to interrupt, but this is the perfect time for this. I just got the email confirming the polishing of the World Series trophy.

[Chris Cody]

Oh, my God.

[Jeremy Tache]

Yeah, because we're all after that. And the problem with you overpaying, you.

[Chris Cody]

Sent your trophy out to be polished.

[Jeremy Tache]

You have to.

[Stugotz]

That's got to be a Venmo.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

It has to be a Venmo. Like, this is the worst phone interruption of all time. We were talking about basketball, and now we're talking about polishing your trophy.

[Jeremy Tache]

No, we're actually talking about winning it all. Which I thought was exactly the through line.

[Chris Cody]

What does it cost to get a World Series trophy polish?

[Jeremy Tache]

I'm sorry, did I misunderstand what the conversation was all the time?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

You misunderstand it all the time.

[Jeremy Tache]

To me, we're talking about the Lakers trying to win it all.

[Chris Cody]

The World Series trophy polishing company. How did you figure out who.

[Jeremy Tache]

Tiffany. You bring it back to Tiffany.

[Stugotz]

Tiff.

[Jeremy Tache]

So is the NBA trophy.

[Dan LeBatard]

Sounds like we're having a tiff.

[Stugotz]

It comes in.

[Jeremy Tache]

Of course I knew what we're talking about because I'm paying attention and I'm on time.

[Chris Cody]

My only surprise is that David Sampson did not demand to be in the room so he could watch his trophy getting polished. That's a horrifying.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

In a towel.

[Chris Cody]

Dear God.

[Jeremy Tache]

Definitely not wearing.

[Chris Cody]

Wearing. Only. Wearing only an apron.

[Jeremy Tache]

This is a true story. I brought the trophy to Tiffany wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt, and I was stopped by. Tiffany has a ton of security in the New York store on 57th Street. And I looked schleppy. I had a toque on, and I had a hoodie. A hoodie and sweatpants. And I was carrying a World Series trophy. And the assumption was that I had pilfered it.

[Stugotz]

The World Series trophy.

[Jeremy Tache]

And I was walking it down the street.

[Stugotz]

You're just walking down the street in.

[Jeremy Tache]

New York with the World Series trophy? I would. Had to bring unboxed.

[Chris Cody]

No cover, no sheet.

[Jeremy Tache]

It doesn't come in a.

[Stugotz]

Yes, it does. It comes in.

[Jeremy Tache]

It was in a Tiffany bag, but it falls down, so the flags are poking out like a little groundhog.

[Stugotz]

David, there's a carrying case. That's where they wheel it in and wheel it out.

[Jeremy Tache]

So. No, wait.

[Chris Cody]

I. I just want to process this.

[Jeremy Tache]

Okay.

[Stugotz]

I'm surprised David could carry the World Series trophy.

[Chris Cody]

Sometimes. Sometimes when I go to a friend's apartment building and I'm carrying, like, food that I brought over, I am asked what restaurant I'm delivering from.

[Stugotz]

Yes.

[Chris Cody]

David Sampson finally got to feel that because he was holding the literal World Series trophy in the Tiffany lobby.

[Jeremy Tache]

Yes. And I was stopped multiple times. And the only way to prove it, because I had no. There's no receipt for it. I had to have them Google. And that was hugely mortifying for me.

[Stugotz]

Dude, I just love the.

[Jeremy Tache]

And then they let me through.

[Chris Cody]

There's a penalty for this, right? There's a penalty for this. Like what?

[Stugotz]

Major.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, major. Can we do that one, Izzy?

[Stugotz]

Yes. It's on your stream deck. You've got the Little charge.

[Chris Cody]

All you have to do is hit the thing. White woman, white guy. White guys, you know.

[Jeremy Tache]

It's not a white guy thing. Wait, why is it a white guy thing?

[Dan LeBatard]

Sports ownership.

[Chris Cody]

I'm seeing it. Oh, wait. Other menu. Oh, my God. Oh, there it is.

[Ryan Cortez]

We've got a penalty.

[Stugotz]

Five minutes. Major asshole. Yes.

[Jeremy Tache]

You're letting this go to your head.

[Stugotz]

There it is. Proof that David and the trophy are not the same height.

[Chris Cody]

It looks like David climbed out of the trophy.

[Jeremy Tache]

That was used. That enabled me to get it polished.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Why are you still here?

[Jeremy Tache]

Yeah, Izzy, man.

[Stugotz]

Hey, he's got a good point.

[Chris Cody]

5 minutes.

[Stugotz]

I love the idea, by the way. This man stole the World Series trophy. And where is the first place he went with it? Tiffany's. I gotta get a policy before I can fence it.

[Chris Cody]

This guy, who clearly doesn't actually own this thing, does want to make sure it's very well taken care of.

[Dan LeBatard]

To reshape a little bit of what David was saying and to maybe give him a defense is. Charlotte can feel good about the move they made. I don't think that it should be the Lakers feeling like they overpaid.

[Chris Cody]

And why should Charlotte feel good?

[Dan LeBatard]

Charlotte can feel good about getting a first round pick, a pick swap and a young player in Dalton connect for moving on from a guy who has often been injured and maybe won't be working with the core that they're building right now. They kick the can down the line.

[Chris Cody]

It's a timeline thing.

[Dan LeBatard]

It's a timeline thing.

[Chris Cody]

This is what I'm saying.

[Dan LeBatard]

That's the thing. Both of you were trying to.

[Stugotz]

My. My co host yesterday on the radio was. How could Charlotte do this? Am I the only one who likes Mark Williams? Like, no, I like Mark Williams too. It's just. Is Mark Williams a franchise player? Well, no. It. It's moving him going to materially impact the Hornets future? Well, no. Well, that's why you give him. It's nice to have. But you go get some stuff that could be even better. What I was trying to say to David and David try to fight it. Which is the idea that the Lakers make that move in part because Rob Pelinka doesn't care what happens in 2030.

[Chris Cody]

Yes, yes. This is, by the way, to bring it all the way back around to our frustration as to why Kevin Durant didn't get traded.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[Chris Cody]

The Phoenix Suns have been the number one example in sports history of saying all we care about right now is the present. Everything else, we will take a payday loan from Danny Ainge. Take three first rounders, whatever it is, right? Give us that. We'll give you everything such that 2031. Basically, we're behaving at the Phoenix Suns organization as if the apocalypse will come in 2030. Mm, we'll all be wiped off the planet. It's the global warming theory. Just, it's happening in five years and.

[Stugotz]

Like I said, there's two parts of it. One part of it is the I don't give a shit, we're not even gonna be here anyway, right? But then there's another part of it, what Golden State is doing what I think Phoenix in theory was doing, which is we've got a special talent. We owe it to them to give them every tool possible to go out and win. Right now. It's the same thing for the Lakers with LeBron. It's like, it's hard to look at this guy who's an all time great, who's still playing at a high level and say, yeah, we're just gonna punt this year and then we'll see how it goes next year. You can't say that to those guys at that age. So they're trying to say, the window's open now, we need to. We can't just expect it to be open forever. Mike D'Antoni used to tell the story all the time that Dan Marino told him he went to the super bowl, what, his second year in the league or whatever, and they lost. And he said, ah, that's all right, we'll get him next year. And then never went back to the Super Bowl. You can't sit around thinking, oh shit, we'll just get better and eventually we'll get back and it'll be all right. It never. You don't know how long this window's open, so they've got to force their way through. But also what reinforces that behavior is the knowledge that, hey, if this doesn't work out, doesn't matter because I'm not gonna be holding the bucket when that happens anyway. It's some other poor schmoe who's gotta inherit that situation.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I mean, you wanna hear a scenario that's gonna either make you laugh or drive people crazy? I hand it over to Jeremy.

[Dan LeBatard]

So Phoenix is terrible, right?

[Stugotz]

Like there's more. I thought just handing it over.

[Dan LeBatard]

Yeah, just me in general is not great for everyone listening. But the Phoenix is in a terrible spot now, right? Because they've shown Kevin Durant they were willing to move on from him and their team is relatively mediocre and beal has been, as is obvious, an impossible guy to move a contract to move. So what's to say that this offseason they don't decide now's the time to blow it up? That they look at Houston and they take Devin Booker and they say, hey, we'll take all of our picks back, plus more.

[Stugotz]

Let me tell you something right now. I know we're on the week of like Luka Doncic got traded, but Devin Booker.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

No, let him get there. Let him get there.

[Stugotz]

Okay?

[Dan LeBatard]

All it was, all this was to set up is the idea of is Durant not an equally depressed asset come this summer? And why overpay now and know that that type of guy could be available in the same as Pat Riley eventually.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Going to land Kevin?

[Dan LeBatard]

This is a pursuit. No, I think that, that Phoenix is the most interesting team at the end of all of it. At the end of all of this, it's Phoenix that's most interesting because of the lack of movement, not the additions. They're the team that I'm looking at and going, look at those two guys who are now sitting right there.

[Chris Cody]

They're holding that roster, denying reality.

[Dan LeBatard]

And they've been doing it for a.

[Chris Cody]

Year for everyone who looked at everybody.

[Dan LeBatard]

And said the same thing, like it was a team that was forced to look internally and decide to go with younger core in Miami. But Phoenix is in one of the strangest positions of any franchise in the league.

[Chris Cody]

The Suns are catastrophically run. Their owner, we've done this, of course on Pablo Torre finds out. We did an episode about Matt Ishbia, about how he runs his organization. It is uncoincidental that he runs his organization like someone who is familiar with mortgages. He is the mortgage king of America, subprime. I mean, look, the details are in the. Are in the piece. It was lawyered and for reasons that are, I think going to be obvious to you. But in terms of timelines, he has run that team like he is going to disappear in 2030. And this raises many questions. But one of the questions I have is is it the case now, motivated by Jeremy's observation, I mean, that Kevin Durant actually was too good a soldier. He needed to be a worse soldier. The bad soldier theory of getting what you want. He needed more Jimmy Butler in him.

[Stugotz]

What, what, what did Kevin Drant want though? He didn't want to go to Golden State and that's why no deal was made, because he didn't want to go there. What does he actually want? I don't know and I Think he would probably hazard all of us from guessing what he wants. Cause you guys don't know who I am and how I think. I'm like, okay, dude, relax.

[Dan LeBatard]

But he flexed the power to not get to Golden State and probably just didn't want to do any more than that. And Miami was sitting there and those two teams couldn't come to a deal. So he says, all right, I'll chill out in Phoenix, which is where I wanted to be to begin with. That at least seems to be where Kevin Durant is at. It makes all of this that much more interesting that a player like that was available and now goes into a year where he's an expiring contract next year. For anyone around the league to look at what's going on in Phoenix and go, is it worth moving something to go get that guy? And would Phoenix be willing to do it now, another summer into a season that unless they go on some sort of really ridiculous special run that no one anticipates, will be another disappointment?

[Stugotz]

I mean, I think you look at it and you got an expiring deal. As you said, he's in the last year's deal next season. Beal has proven to be difficult to move. Booker's not going to get moved because he is everything for that franchise. And despite them acquiring those picks a couple of weeks ago from Utah in order to give themselves some flexibility, they don't have a whole lot of flexibility in terms of what they can make happen. That savory that upgrades that roster and that second apron looms large above them. Durant might be their only way out in terms of getting out from under this and trying to run this the right way.

[Chris Cody]

Are we. This just. Just the second apron thing right before we just fully feed yet more Miami propaganda. The second apron thing, I mean, and, David, I don't want to get into the weeds of explaining what that is, because it's just. I guess the summary is it's an even more punitive tax on top of the tax teams used to pay. But what we're saying is that this rule has changed the economy of basketball transactions.

[Stugotz]

Yes, but not because of the financial impact. That's what the problem or the.

[Chris Cody]

Explain, please, please explain.

[Stugotz]

So once upon a time, the league said, we're spending too much. We need to curtail spending. How we're gonna do it. If you spend beyond this number, which is way above the salary cap, we're gonna institute a dollar for dollar luxury tax. Ooh, that'll stop guys from spending. But guess what? It Didn't. People kept spending. So they said in the next collective bargain agreement, we gotta do something crazier. I know what it is. It'll escalate. So after $10 million above, it'll go to 150 for every dollar. At $20 million, it'll go for 250, et cetera, et cetera. That didn't do it. Then they said, oh, we'll have repeater taxes. So if you've been in the luxury tax habitually, your tax is actually even bigger of a jump from threshold to threshold. That didn't stop. And they realized, you know what's going to stop people from overspending? It's not money, it's not fines. It's taking away the ability to improve the roster. Hey, we're going to stop you from signing and trading. Hey, when you do a trade, it has to be 100% salary for salary match. Hey, you're a mid level exception, way smaller than everybody else's. And that's what this is right now. This is the fully realized. If you do these things, you can spend however much you want, but if you do, you better hope you love your team. Because if you don't like the Phoenix Suns, changing becomes immediately very, very difficult.

[Jeremy Tache]

So it's working.

[Chris Cody]

Hi, Dave.

[Stugotz]

Yes, it's what they. It's finally what they wanted.

[Jeremy Tache]

This is what you tried in baseball was called the cone tax. And the irony is the cone tax is now the Dodgers tax. It's a level of threshold that is punitive. And now there's picks involved, draft picks, placements in the draft. And in a capped sport, it becomes even more critical to have these punitive things. And I would argue it's been working. You have an owner right here in Miami. Mickey Arison, for all the love that we give him, is the best owner in South Florida. He focuses on the luxury tax tremendously, year over year. I don't know if he's so Izzy just will not agree with anything I say today. That's fine. Are you.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

That wasn't me singing.

[Dan LeBatard]

Are you that man? So sanderless.

[Jeremy Tache]

Are you gonna deny that Mickey Arison is Howard?

[Chris Cody]

How is David not aware of how the show works?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I will not hear Mickey Arison hatred because somehow he's been able to own a team and still be fiscally responsible while allowing Pat Riley to do his thing for 30 years. And they've been relevant for a long time. So maybe he's doing it right.

[Chris Cody]

So what you're saying is that maybe. Okay, are we.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

No, you can go a little bit longer. Is there a penalty for that?

[Chris Cody]

I have been trying, David.

[Jeremy Tache]

I am trying to do the show. I'm leaving. Chris, play the sound. Press the button.

[Stugotz]

That man.

[Dan LeBatard]

So sandalous. Friends, it's Jerbear. And you know that I'm obviously a bit of the romantic type. And Valentine's Day is coming up and for me, there's only one place that I trust. 1-800-flowers.com Every year I order stunning, high quality bouquets from 1-800-flowers that my wife absolutely loves. And this year, I'm partnering with 1-800-FLOWERS to make sure you're a Valentine's hero with an exclusive offer for my listeners. Double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. It's the perfect way to say I love you without breaking the bank. Trust me, 1-800-FLowers always delivers. In the Levitard studios, we received a beautiful arrangement of long stem red roses accompanied in an hourglass red vase. They're timeless, luxurious and romantic. A must have this Valentine's Day. And seeing and smelling the freshness of that bouquet as I walk into work every day has me prepared for any hate that Dan may throw my way. To claim your double your roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com dan that's at 1-800-flowers.Com dan.

[Mike Ryan]

Hey folks, it's Mike Ryan. It is big game week and I've got just the thing to make your big game time a Miller Time. From fireside conversations to football Sundays, winter means more moments with the coolest people in your life. Make these moments even better with Miller Lite, the great tasting light beer for people who love beer. A new year is a perfect time for friends, family and great tasting light beer tastes like Miller Time. Miller Lite is brewed for taste. It hits different than other light beers. When you're hosting your ultimate game day party, why don't you bring out a beautiful silver platter of that amazing white can and know you will make everybody there happy. Because Miller Lite is the original light beer since 1975 and still the very best. One Miller Lite great taste 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell. Beer tastes like Miller Time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.