The Big Suey: The Frozen Olaf

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode: The Big Suey: The Frozen Olaf
Date: March 31, 2026
Location: Elser Hotel, Downtown Miami

Overview

In this episode of The Big Suey, Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, and the crew dive into a peculiar viral Frozen Olaf video and use it as a springboard to discuss childhood trauma, coaching archetypes in sports, the boundaries of controversial beliefs and free speech for pro athletes, and how mental health, identity, and expectation intersect in the sports world. The episode balances moments of absurd humor with earnestly debated social issues, in the show's signature irreverent tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Frozen Olaf Video—Childhood Trauma and Humor

Timestamps: 00:32–07:00

• Description of Viral Olaf Video—Is it Traumatizing for Kids?
  Dan introduces a viral video where a robotic Olaf “dies” mid-performance, causing mixed reactions among children and adults.

  • Dan: "It's moving like it's animated. And then it freezes... falls with the clacking sound... And then its nose falls off." (01:46)
  • Jeremy: "It's the eyes for me. It's the fact that it’s talking, it’s moving its arms, it's looking at people. And then suddenly, eyes freeze. Fall backwards. Hey, frozen." (02:15)
  • Tony: "I think the dismemberment, the loss of the nose is what really gets me... It's just jarring, even if you realize that's a robot." (04:33)

• Parental Debrief: What’s Traumatic?
  The group debates what age is most susceptible to trauma from such videos—with consensus that reactions heavily depend on the child.

  • Greg Cote: "I think it all depends on the kid, Dan. My kids, when they were of that age, they would have laughed... But clearly from this video, I can hear someone in the background reacting." (03:40)

• Analogies & Comedic Exaggeration
  Dan and Greg use darkly playful comparisons, likening the scene to "Santa holding a severed human head" and sport sideline injuries.

  • Dan: "It's not Santa holding a bottle of scotch. It's Santa holding a severed human head." (05:51)

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2. Sports Coaching Types: Hard Asses, Medium Asses, and Players’ Coaches

Timestamps: 07:19–12:20

• “Hard Ass” Coaches—Why Do We Idolize Them?
  The crew discusses why teams sometimes hire famously no-nonsense, even “bully” coaches like John Tortorella and the psychology behind it.

  • Dan: "Why do you want your players... to have this bully in charge?" (07:53)
  • Mike: "It works if you have an undisputed disciplined team... Coach Q is another guy that is considered a bit of a hard ass." (09:08)

• Would Anyone in This Room Want a “Hard Ass” Boss?

  • Dan: "...Nobody here would want it. Correct. There's not a person here who would want it for themselves." (09:28)

• Medium Asses—The Ideal Balance?

  • Tony: "I think in general, you want the medium ass... combines both elements. I just invented that phrase." (10:45)

• NFL and NBA Examples
  The “hard ass/soft ass/medium ass” coaching continuum is explored with real-life examples: Steve Kerr/Draymond Green, Andy Reid (soft ass), Mike Vrabel (medium ass).

  • Mike: "The perfect medium ass in the NFL is Mike Vrabel..." (11:28)
  • Dan: "Tomlin’s a hard ass and his players adore him... But I do think that can be done with kid gloves as much as an Iron Fist." (11:42)

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3. Player Behavior, Religious Beliefs, and Sports Culture Wars

Timestamps: 15:18–27:29, 29:31–43:59

• Brandon Aiyuk & Athlete Management in the NFL
  Dan and Mike analyze the San Francisco 49ers' handling of contracts and difficult players—contrasting the owner's priorities versus coaches, and referencing Brandon Aiyuk.

  • Dan: "The coach has to be an ally to some of these guys... The owner doesn’t have to deal with that." (15:18–17:17)

• Jaden Ivey’s Waiver: Religion vs. Team Culture
  Long segment examining NBA player Jaden Ivey, who was waived by the Bulls after a series of controversial religious and anti-gay statements on social media.

  • Dan: "He’s doing an assortment of live streams where he’s feeling a very strong need to tell everybody... not just his opinions on abortion, but specifically anti-gay commentary filed under the Bible and what he called unrighteousness." (17:26)
  • Greg Cote: "He’s not good enough to have a controversial opinion of any sort in any direction." (21:20)

• Does Talent Make Teams Tolerate Controversy?

  • Tony: "If he had panned out as a top five pick... they would allow him to do the apology tour... They would not have waived him if he were good." (21:58)
  • Dan: "There would be a different set of rules... The easiest move for the Bulls is get out of here..." (22:35)

• Comparison with Other Sports and ESPN's “Woke” Backlash
  Dan comments on hockey’s different tolerance for Pride Night dissent and ESPN’s retreat from social commentary.

  • Dan: "They have...run all of the woke journalists out of ESPN..." (25:23)

• Defining the Line: “Unpopular Opinion” vs. “Public Face of Bigotry”
  Tony delineates between holding private beliefs and repeatedly putting them into the public sphere to the team’s detriment.

  • Tony: "There's a huge difference between having a belief that is unpopular and getting on a soapbox... and that's where Jaden Ivey crossed the line." (31:23)

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4. Mental Health, Identity, and the Fragility of Talent

Timestamps: 30:36–43:59

• Is Ivey’s Behavior a Mental Health Episode?
  Roy, Mike, and Dan discuss the possibility of Ivey’s actions being related to mental illness, stressing how sports organizations often disregard player mental health unless stars force the issue.

  • Roy: "When I see what Jaden Ivey does on his Instagram Live... is it an episode that he's having..." (30:36)
  • Dan: "I cannot tell you how ill-equipped sports is to deal with any of this. They only have to deal with it if the player's good enough..." (31:53)

• Performance, Expectation, and Mental Breakdown
  The conversation pivots into how unfulfilled potential can drive identity crises in athletes; striking parallels are drawn with Tiger Woods’s perfectionism and mental health.

  • Greg Cote: "...the idea of expectation and failing to meet expectation and what that can do to someone who’s centered their identity around being something amazing..." (33:38)
  • Dan: "Wouldn't you think...that a personality type that had to do whatever Tiger Woods had to do in order to be great would be someone who would be predisposed to being at the very least obsessive-compulsive?" (35:35)

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Olaf’s Trauma Factor:
  Dan: "The carrot being five feet beyond the head after the screaming, clacking sound... The mouth is moving. And then when the seizure strikes, it is clear to all involved that this is now an inanimate object and something is deeply wrong." (04:02)

• On Coaching Styles:
  Tony: "I think in general, you want the medium ass... combines both elements. The medium ass. I just invented that phrase." (10:45)

• On Ivey's Fate:
  Greg Cote: "He's not good enough to have a controversial opinion of any sort in any direction... he's done with the NBA forever." (21:20)

• On Religiosity and Outcast Athletes:
  Tony: "...you don't have to become the public face of bigotry and prejudice." (31:23)

• On Mental Health in Sports:
  Dan: "I cannot tell you how ill-equipped sports is to deal with any of this. They only have to deal with it if the player's good enough to force you to deal with it." (31:53)

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6. Timestamps for Important Segments

• Olaf Video & Kid Trauma: 00:32–07:00
• Sports Coaching Styles: 07:19–12:20
• Brandon Aiyuk & NFL Player Management: 15:18–17:17
• Jaden Ivey Controversy: 17:26–27:29, 29:31–43:59
• Mental Health & Athlete Identity: 30:36–37:53
• Audience Fatigue with Culture War Topics: 37:53–39:10

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully weaves its trademark wit and irreverence (as seen in the "Frozen Olaf" discussion and invention of "medium ass" coaching) with earnest, complex debate about psychology, belief, and responsibility in sports culture. The crew is often self-aware about the limits of their own social commentary, acknowledging the churn of outrage and polarization. The show's tone swings easily from absurdist comedy to sincere introspection—giving listeners a thorough, thought-provoking, and entertaining ride through the strange world of modern sports and the humans who play it.

Transcript

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[Dan Le Batard]

Welcome to the Big Suey, presented by DraftKings. Why are you listening to this show, the podcast that seems very similar to

[Greg Cote]

the other Dan LeBatard podcast?

[Tony]

I'm sorry.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm not gonna apologize for that.

[Greg Cote]

In fact, the only difference seems to be this imag.

[Dan Le Batard]

I have been tempted in restaurants just walking past tables to grab somebody's fries if they're just there. That hasn't happened to you guys. I've done it.

[Greg Cote]

And now here's the marching man to

[Dan Le Batard]

Nowhere, Fat Face and the Habitual Liar.

[Tony]

This episode of the day in Levitart show is presented by DraftKings. DraftKings, the Crown is yours.

[Dan Le Batard]

Chris has a young child, and he is at home with her. Roy and Tony and Mike have young children. So can you guys get for me that video that I believe will be traumatizing two children of a certain age, but I'm not familiar enough with. What are the ages that would get traumatized by something like this? I'm thinking, Tony, is your daughter old enough to.

[Roy]

My daughter's 15 months tomorrow, so she wouldn't give a rat's ass about this.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, so, Roy, would Claire be upset by this video Olaf from Frozen here. If she is a fan of Frozen, as I imagine most kids are, play this video of Olaf. And for the audio audience, I will let you know that it's a robotic Olaf. It seems to be talking, and then a heart attack. As far as I could tell, just total bone ambolia.

[Mike]

Right?

[Dan Le Batard]

And then all of a sudden, the carrot nose falls off in a way that I would believe to be the greatest of the trauma. But the thing that's jarring about it is the instant paralysis, because it's moving like a robot. It's moving like it's animated. And then it freezes and it's seizure. It's clear seizure there. And then falls with the clacking sound. Falls on its back, and that is. And then its nose falls off.

[Mike]

It's met with yells and gasps.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, how could it not be? It's horrifying.

[Jeremy]

It's the eyes for me. It's the fact that it's talking, it's moving its arms, it's looking at people. And then suddenly, eyes freeze. Fall backwards. Hey, frozen.

[Dan Le Batard]

Frozen is. Yes, Olaf. That's how you would explain it to the child. Correct? Don't worry. It's just Olaf was frozen and you're not gonna say heart attack, seizure. You're not gonna ambolia. You're not go. You're going to say. What are you going to say about the carrot nose? Because for those of you do not know, frozen and can't see the video. Olaf is just the sort of stereotypical snowman where he's got a carrot for a nose. And that's basically the whole snowman. It's a couple of buttons. The snowman's real easy in terms of taking care of fun stuff. It is second only to the stick in terms of the least amount of things that you need in order to play with. The stick is in the toy hall of fame, I should mention. You can't play that enough. Please keep playing the sound though, because Olaf, Olaf falling on his back, seizing

[Roy]

the plastic.

[Tony]

Thud.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's just horrifying. So what age, what age do you have a trauma that a child is going to have nightmares? Because it sounds like Mike and Roy, their daughters are too old and it sounds like Tony's is too young to be traumatized by this.

[Greg Cote]

I think it all depends on the kid, Dan. I mean like some kid, my kids, when they were of that age, they would have laughed. That's how they are. They would have just cackled laughing. But clearly from this video, I can hear someone in the background.

[Tony]

Yeah, it's jarring. It really is.

[Jeremy]

I'm unsettled by is unsettling no matter what.

[Tony]

It really is.

[Dan Le Batard]

What is the most unsettling part? Because I'm going to say it's the carrot being five feet beyond the head after the screaming, clacking sound and you know, kids being wh away. The thing that's greatest about it though is the mouth is moving. And then when the seizure strikes, it is clear to all involved that this is now an inanimate object and something is deeply wrong. But when the mouth stops moving, you notice, you notice the seizure in his face.

[Tony]

Yeah. I think the dismemberment, the loss of the nose is what really gets me. I'm trying to picture explaining that my granddaughter. It's like explaining why is Santa Claus holding a bottle of scotch. It's just jarring, you know, it's. It's jarring. Even if you like my 8 year old granddaughter, she looks at that, she realizes that's a robot. She's like, that's not a real snowman. But it's still jarring. It's still unsettling. I would be the one gasping in the background if I were watching that Live.

[Jeremy]

It does look, though, when you watch the video, like the NFL trainers, when someone is concussed, like getting down on one knee right there and just checking in and asking, make sure they're not potentially paralyzed. We go down, we get one knee, and we look at them. Okay. All right. Are they doing okay? One knee, look. How are we doing? Okay, now you can go in and help. And of course, the second person that comes in, grabbing Olaf by the crotch isn't exactly wonderful either. It's not a great look.

[Tony]

I think it would have been funny if they would have started applying cpr. That would have been just an added touch. That would have been really special.

[Roy]

Who knew the nose was so lightly put onto the face?

[Ad Read Announcer]

Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

You feel, like, screwed on. I feel like everyone knows that with a snowman, if the most authentic snowmen do not have mechanical parts, they don't

[Roy]

have you stick the carrot in there. Nice.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, you're right. It should have some roots and some depth. I think that Greg's got the analogy wrong, though. It's not Santa holding a bottle of scotch. It's. It's Santa holding a severed human head. It's. It's something. The dismemberment you speak of that has the carrot nose seven feet in the background as paramedics, one of them dressed as a gesture of some sort. Paramedics tend to 10 to the snowman. That is quality video. Keep it behind Tony. The rest of the.

[Roy]

I wouldn't say jester. I'd say part of the king's court.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you for doing that.

[Roy]

Because jester, you know, implies the little hat and, you know, bells and whatnot.

[Mike]

He's more of like a.

[Roy]

Like a duke in the court.

[Dan Le Batard]

An earl of some sort.

[Jeremy]

Are we sure he's not one of the princes in Frozen? I think he might be a prince.

[Greg Cote]

Was there a prince in Frozen?

[Mike]

Yes. Yeah. Not the hero, though. There was Sven, who was like the hero who was walking around with the reindeer that would talk. The prince was actually the bad guy. Spoiler alert.

[Tony]

And that was quite the. Okay, Prince of Denmark.

[Dan Le Batard]

Isn't that kind of a Disney stereotype, that the prince is always impossibly good looking but also arrogant and sometimes they

[Mike]

turn this one on its head like

[Roy]

a sleeping beauty goes and kisses her, wakes her up.

[Mike]

You want to believe in the love story, even though it moves way too quickly, and then they pull the rug out from under you, like, oh, that's actually the bad guy the entire time.

[Greg Cote]

Also, how could you not be arrogant if your name was literally Prince Charming? It was like it was meant to be.

[Dan Le Batard]

I can't believe that Roy did not tell me. I learned this from a friend of mine who used to. He used to be someone who ran the Vegas Knights. And he was explaining to me that he liked the recent hire that the Vegas Knights had made.

[Greg Cote]

It ain't the United States of Tortorella.

[Dan Le Batard]

He's back. He's a jerk. And people like that as their coach. And I wanted to ask the rest of you why that is. Because I was making fun of my. I was like, you would not want to as your boss.

[Greg Cote]

It ain't the United States of Tortorella.

[Dan Le Batard]

Why do you want your players, people you ostensibly you know, care about, to have this bully in charge?

[Greg Cote]

It ain't the United States of Tortorella.

[Mike]

I'm curious Roy's thoughts here. Because Bruce Cassidy was a hard ass, right? Usually when the players do not, and the Vegas Knights have had a terrible season for them, they're still in playoff position because they're benefiting from a weak division, but they're not beating bad teams, it seems as though Cassidy's act has finally worn. Yeah, they tuned them out last year

[Tony]

and now this is the final straw.

[Mike]

It's just interesting, them doing it with eight games left. Right. But usually when you replace the hard ass, you go players, coach, you don't go from hard ass to harder ass.

[Dan Le Batard]

Can you guys find for me why it is that it's a hard ass? Why someone who. We all know what you're saying there, but I'm not totally sure why we all know what it is that you're saying.

[Tony]

Damn.

[Greg Cote]

Because we all love a soft ass.

[Dan Le Batard]

Somebody who's a hard ass. Tortorella in hockey circles, where is he? How close is he to the top of the list on guy you bring in if you want to just kick your team's ass. Somebody that nobody's going to like. And maybe he motivates them, maybe he doesn't. This look, man, the Dallas Stars did this with Hitchcock. There are any number of teams that love doing this with the guy who's unreasonable. But Tortorella is the top of the list, is he not?

[Mike]

Yeah, the guy that he replaced is actually kind of up there. Barubi is another guy, which that didn't work out for the Leafs at all. But yeah, there are a couple of these old school hard asses. It works. If you have an undisputed disciplined team and you come in, Coach Q is another guy that is considered a bit of a hard ass. And Anaheim's had A lot of success this year.

[Dan Le Batard]

When you guys say that, though, it's a large umbrella, right? If I told you guys, any of you, that coming in tomorrow to straighten out our outfit is somebody who's got a little bit of military sergeant in him and is known throughout the industry as a hard ass, nobody here would want it. Correct. There's not a person here who would want it for themselves. No matter how sloppy and disorganized we are, who would want to know that the boss coming in is a hard ass? Nobody's gonna say, oh, I think the company needs it. I think we need it.

[Mike]

This is team number five for John Tortorelli since he left Tampa in 2013.

[Greg Cote]

Dan. I'm gonna disagree, man, because there are a lot of athletes that actually respond a lot better to a hard ass. Draymond Green is a great example. Steve Kerr, when he first started coaching, he's like, I don't know how to get through to the guy. He called Tom Izzo. Tom Izzo says, oh, he just wants you to cuss him out. That's how he wants you to coach him. And so whenever we see Steve Kerr and Draymond Green nose to nose, yelling at each other, yelling and shouting us up, a lot of people are like, oh, trouble in paradise. Like, no, that's Steve Kerr just adjusting his leadership style to apply to a guy who responds best to that kind of coaching. It ain't the United States of Tortorella.

[Tony]

I think in general, though, you want the medium ass. You know, you don't want the drill sergeant over here, and you don't want the soft players coach over here. You want the guy who kind of combines both elements. The medium ass. I just invented that phrase.

[Mike]

I like that phrase a lot, Greg. I think Paul Maurice kind of ventures into medium ass territory.

[Tony]

I think he does, too. I think that's a great analogy in professional football.

[Dan Le Batard]

Who's a medium ass? Okay. Because we were talking about this the other day when it came. I don't even remember what we were talking about. Players coach. Oh, that. We were talking about somebody ripping McDaniel. Raheem Mostert ripping McDaniel because he was saying he was too much of a players coach. Andy Reid, to me, I think he is soft ass. I don't think soft ass, medium ass,

[Mike]

soft ass, players coach. I think the perfect medium ass in the NFL is Mike Vrabel because he comes from that Belichick tree.

[Dan Le Batard]

You don't think that's a hard ass?

[Mike]

No, because his players adore him. Because he's not too far removed from playing, too. So he knows what it's like.

[Dan Le Batard]

Tomlin's a hard ass and his players adore him. You can be. Amin's point is the correct one in that some of these environments are vastly different than our environment. A creative environment can be sensitive, can be fragile. Players, some players do appreciate. And when they get out into the real world, they don't like that the real world is less honest than the locker room. They don't like that people won't just criticize them because you're not growing and learning unless you're having things around you that prod you into a better place. But I do think that that can be done with kid gloves as much as with, you know, Iron Fist.

[Mike]

Creatives hate the hard ass. It's why anytime there's a hard ass involved in the talk show circuit, someone on the staff runs the Vanity Fair and can't wait to complain and air all the dirty laundry. Hey, Roy, buddy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yo.

[Mike]

You know that energy shift when the game gets good and everybody all together in unison knows to stand up on their feet? Oh, absolutely, Mike.

[Tony]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You've been at many big time sporting events. You know that moment quite well. That's what it's like when you take your first sip of Cuervo.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, delicious.

[Mike]

It's the signal that says, we're not checking the time anymore, pal. It's when small talk turns into stories. Cuervo, man. It's that high five, a random stranger effect. That's right. The game is popping. You're hugging people you never met before. That's the kind of energy that Cuervo brings. It's so smooth, so delicious. That's the Cuervo effect. Keep it Cuervo.

[Greg Cote]

Folks, listen up.

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[Tony]

Yes. You know, I'm a married man. I don't cheat on my wife. Despite that gratuitous line in back in my stugats, I wish you were here. My wife, I really miss her. No, I don't. That's the thing about being married, you know, you're not allowed to say, I don't miss my wife. I've been gone two days. I haven't been gone long enough to miss my wife. I'm sorry. I call her. I'm on the phone with her for 30 seconds. You know, what am I? Hello?

[Greg Cote]

All right.

[Tony]

All right, we'll see ya. All right. And then, you know, I'm gonna see

[Jeremy]

her in two days.

[Tony]

I was jumping Charlie. Good.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Jeremy]

Media mask.

[Dan Le Batard]

Sean McVeigh, you think? I think he's more players coach as well. Like I, I think there is a version of coach in these sports who has realized that generationally there have to be multiple ways to reach a 20 year old. Not everyone is Draymond Green. You have to do it individual to individual. But I do think someone like McVeigh would wouldn't puff out his chest about, I'm leader, I'm in charge. He would view himself as an ally. My job here. Did you guys see what happened with the management of the 49ers as it relates to IUK where Shanahan' like and John lynch both like, that's it. He's playing his final game here and the owner wanders over. He's like, hold on a second. Talented players are hard to get. He might still have some value. And now he's publicly saying something different. The coach has to be an ally to some of these guys. And Shanahan is fed up because he's like, I can't reach this guy. I physically can't reach him. I can't get him on the phone to find out if he's going to show up for work. And that is something that I can't trust in my environment. But the owner doesn't have to to deal with that. The owner says, my job is just to create a place where I'm putting a bunch of good football players in a room. And then we create the organization that serves those football players so that they become better football players.

[Mike]

To me, I mean, this whole organization is dying for like a Pablo treatment. I'm so fascinated by the San Francisco 49ers and have been for years because I dating back to his coordinator days when he was in Cleveland, it seemed like he was the only guy that knew what he was doing over there. Kyle Shanahan to me is like cream of the crop. But they have all these injuries. There's this electrical substation. The IUK thing is weird. They seem to have great leadership with John Lynch. They're always right there. But they can't win the big one. They have, like, guys that George Kittle, hall of Famer, Fred Warner, hall of Famer, and they're trying to do this with Mr. Irrelevant at quarterback. It's a fascinating game.

[Dan Le Batard]

Trent Williams, hall of famer, McCaffrey, hall of famer.

[Mike]

Yeah. I mean, exciting whites all around the field. It's a fascinating team.

[Dan Le Batard]

Put it on the poll at LeBatard show. Do the San Francisco 49ers lead the league in exciting whites. The Brandon Aiuk situation is a really unusual one. A guy gets his guaranteed money and then just stops showing up and becomes such a problem that they take his guaranteed money, which is not something. Or they're trying to take his guaranteed money. You're not allowed to take the guaranteed money unless someone's behavior is egregious. You wouldn't even. You wouldn't even think to do that because of the harm it would bring you with future guaranteed contracts because you're now the organization that takes back guaranteed money. I to Mike's point about wanting to know the ins and outs of that organization. I wish one of these insiders would explain to us exactly what the breaking points have been there that make Brandon Aiuk think it's okay to just stop showing up for anything at work after you've gotten your guaranteed money. The jobs. Let. Let's transition here to Jaden Ivy, because I want to talk about how rare it is to get and have these jobs and what you have to do to lose them. Because at this point, the Chicago Bulls could put anybody In a uniform. So. So going into free agency as Jaden Ivey is sitting on the bench, getting waived for an assortment of commentary, some of it anti gay, but all of it filed under religious beliefs and religious beliefs that are more ardent than they were in his previous stops where the reporting is that many Bulls players and management were getting tired of his sermonizing and preaching. But while he's away from the team for conduct detrimental to the team, he's doing an assortment of live streams where he's feeling a very strong need to tell everybody not only about his religion, not his just his depression, not just his love of apple pie, not just his opinions on abortion, but specifically anti gay commentary filed under the Bible and what he called unrighteousness. And he's saying, what conduct did I do that's detrimental to the team? This is what he's saying, though. He's like, how did I, how did I harm the team by having a religious conviction? Now, we can, in this particular group of people, because of what it is that we do around here, this is not, not, not an echo chamber, be super easy to just cast a scolding tone here at Jaden Ivey. But there are many people in America and a divided America right now, divided along religious lines, who would say that Jaden Ivey's conduct isn't detrimental to the team, that he's being persecuted because of his religious beliefs. That's what they will say. That is the framing of whoever it is that's going to now support Jade Nivey.

[Mike]

Riley Gaines is.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, a number of people like, he can become a figure now from sports who was too hot for sports because he's too busy telling the truth and sports can't help handle it within the silos that people are now politically, religiously based on gender, based on sexuality. This is a move that hard harms him with the Chicago Bulls, but doesn't necessarily harm him with his base.

[Greg Cote]

What base? What base?

[Dan Le Batard]

People who believe that homosexuality is wrong because. Because in the Bible you believe what it is that you believe about sexuality and immoralities. He's calling it unrighteousness. There are many people who believe this, Dan.

[Greg Cote]

Many people believe this. I guarantee almost all of them have never heard of Jaden Ivey. And this is. All right, guys, this is when we got to put on our big boy pants, because I'm gonna be a little too blunt and direct here. He's not good enough to have a controversial opinion of any sort in any direction. So you say this has got him out of, out of the favor of the Chicago Bulls, buddy. He's done with the NBA forever. You're not good enough to have that kind of a scandal in terms of things that you're saying again in any direction and still come back to work the next day. Like George Costanza saying, I didn't know there was anything wrong with that.

[Tony]

Yeah. Public support of his beliefs is not a smart business model for any sports franchise in America, even in these divided times. But I want to to endorse what Amin was just saying. Top five pick. And this is not a small sample. He's been in the league now five or six years. I think top five pick hasn't quite panned out. Hasn't quite panned out. Plus those beliefs. This is a business decision. If he had panned out as a top five pick and they intended to re sign him and extend him, they would allow him to do the apology tour. They would not have waived him if he were good.

[Dan Le Batard]

There would be a different set of rules. This would actually be a more interesting conversation if a team was being tested along its ethical lines by somebody who was good enough to cross over into this barrier and keep their job. The easiest move for the Bulls is get out of here. It does not matter who's in our uniforms. We don't need this in our uniforms. But when you say he's not good enough, neither Zenas Cantor and he turned it into a post basketball career waving around that he was blackballed by the league and too honest for the league.

[Greg Cote]

Enos Cancer first of all had compared to this case kid hall of Fame career, that's like night and day as far as someone who was accomplished on a basketball court. Enos Cantor also had an on ramp because of real persecution that his family was going through back in Turkey. The problem is Enos Cantor was in my estimation a guy who liked to hear the crowd cheer. And so what he chased was the cheers. So as he heard right wing kind of of conservative media say this guy's telling how it is. He's like what else do they like to talk about? China. Like and LeBron's afraid of China. Like yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

And then.

[Greg Cote]

And also like. And he just kind of was chasing cheers again. Enos Cantor, another example of freedom.

[Mike]

Sorry and it should be noted been quiet lately to a means point.

[Greg Cote]

The thing that he also realizes at some point this is the opportunity cost that every organization makes. How good is he? Meaning can I get someone who maybe not be quite as good but maybe a little bit less as good, but also doesn't come with any of the bullshit antics, then I'll go with that option.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is a place that people end up all the time. So give me the tipping point. Give me the guy who's worth this. Where's the line on argument where. Because this always becomes the talking point always in the face of these conversations. Oh, they wouldn't have done that to Guy who was better or they or they would have punished more severely Guy who was worse. We can all agree the Chicago Bulls are not trying. He's about to become a free agent. Like this is disastrous as a bit as a businessman move. Disastrous because Amin just said he talked himself out of the league. He was objecting to Pride Nights, but this is like he'd fit right in in hockey.

[Greg Cote]

He not not saying that he Dan, if he were the equivalent level talent as he is in the NBA over in hockey and had that Instagram live, he'd be waved to object. There's not a sport in America where this dude at his talent level would still be on a roster today. Not a sport.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm not sure that what you're saying is so about a top five pick only because, okay, in hockey, I've seen a whole lot of objecting to Pride Night and I do understand how it is that people want their hatreds or their beliefs either expressed their way at sporting events or not at all at sporting events because they just don't want this with their sports. I saw ESPN was being celebrated by shit stains coverage because they've run all of the woke journalists out of espn. They have. They've successfully done that. They have quietly done that. And it's at least in part because their focus groups show that in protection of the business, it is wiser to get everybody the hell away from anything that resembles social commentary and just throw all the money at Live Rights and don't have any opinions that are not sports opinions anywhere on your sports network. That side has won and it has pushed over the worldwide leader so that the worldwide leader is now embracing the climate of the moment by avoiding all of this stuff. Jeremy, where do I have it wrong on hockey in saying that Hockey is permeated with a whole lot of people mumbling under their breath about feeling like some of this stuff shouldn't be near the ice.

[Jeremy]

Because there is a difference between feeling like you are being forced to celebrate the LGBTQ community when that doesn't line up with your beliefs and publicly demonizing that group, railing against them, publicly calling them sinners. And I believe there was another term in there that was unrighteous. That is a different thing than saying, hey, I don't want to wear the rainbow uniform. Those are, those are two different things, and it's important to draw those distinctions.

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[Greg Cote]

Dan, a couple of things. Number one, what Jeremy is saying is articulating is the NHL players or the other athletes who have spoken out. It's usually in a kind of a measured tone. Hey, I don't. This doesn't represent my beliefs. Whatever. This dude was ranting and raving, by the way. Beyond that, he also said Catholicism is a fake religion. He also said Steph Curry is a fake Christian. Oh, just because he wrote Philippians. Whatever, whatever. Doesn't mean he's righteous in the eyes of God. And like, he is just like a Looney Tunes character talking. These are not the words of a rational human being being, regardless of how hateful his speech is or isn't.

[Mike]

And this has been percolating for quite some time. There are reports that he's basically harassing teammates with his opinions being very preachy, not worth it. I do want to clean up some of the hockey stuff because I don't think it's fair to even mention them because what Jeremy says is absolutely right. You don't have anyone that outspoken really, in hockey the way that Ivey was. And also you don't have the kind of support in the NBA that you've seen from stars like Connor McDavid and Matthew Tkachuk when it comes to these pride nights and rainbow tape and whatnot.

[Roy]

We had the conversation a couple of days ago about Puka Nakua and his mental health and Antonio Brown and, like, what that sport does to people's brains. And obviously in basketball, we're not having that same conversation. Cause it's not the same physicality level. But when I see what Jaden Ivey does on his Instagram Live, like, it takes me back for a second. I'm like, man, is it an episode that he's having that he's using stuff that he's learned and stuff that he's converted to Christianity? And now that's kind of blending the two worlds together in the midst of an episode. That's something that I look at. I'm like, I see people on the street, homeless people ranting, raving in the same fashion. And we just walk by them and don't really pay much attention to them.

[Mike]

And you're not taking liberties because Ivy has been upfront about his battles with depression and his own mental strife.

[Tony]

There's a huge difference between having a belief that is unpopular and getting on a soapbox and espousing that belief at the expense of your team's reputation. And that's where Jaden Ivey crossed the line. If he's a particularly religious person who hides behind the shield of his religion to be anti gay. That's his belief, and he's entitled to it. But you don't have to espouse it. You don't have to become the public face of bigotry and prejudice.

[Dan Le Batard]

Let me stop everyone here for just a second, because what Tony said about an episode, I will tell you that this. I've had all my thinking on this changed almost entirely by the experience that I had with my brother at the end where he had the cancer had gotten to his brain. And there were things happening with episodes that I simply didn't recognize. Okay. I had to go in on behalf of our family years before things really escalated. Okay? Because everyone asked me to go in and say, dan, please go talk to your brother and tell him that no one can say anything to him, that there's nothing that can be said to him that's not met with an objection. I did that, and my brother didn't talk to me for more than a year. What Tony is saying about episodes and when a guy is going crazy, it's easy to do with Charlie Sheen and Kanye. And some people are, as we mentioned with Puka, some people are just assholes. So it can't be filed under. Well, what's going on over here? Is he actually going a little bit crazy? But when you mention an episode, I cannot tell you how ill equipped sports is to deal with any of this. They only have to deal with it if the player's good enough to force you to deal with it. But I don't know what happened with John Moran. And when behavior is so crazy, like sometimes it's Antonio Brown and you're like, okay, I'm comfortable doing this. But these are just the incidents that spill into public. In the case of Ivy, this is what he's chosen to share with us. But he believes he's being wronged here. Clear on this. He believes he's right and no one can tell him anything because he thinks he's talking to God about it.

[Greg Cote]

So, Dan, this kind of reminds me a little bit of the conversation we had yesterday about Tiger woods and the idea of expectation and failing to meet expectation and what that can do to someone who's centered their entire identity around being something amazing. In Tiger woods case, you said number two is good enough. He said, probably not. He probably thinks dad wanted me to be number one, and I think failed. And some of that stuff manifests in how he handles things. Again, we're not making excuses for any kind of behavior. We're just trying to explain it. So Same thing with Jane Ivey. If you were a top five pick like Greg said, and you didn't pan out, that's gotta be some real mind f that's happening upstairs. And then you partner that breaking of your brain with whatever kind of discovery of religion which a lot of people turn to in times of darkness. And then it depends on who is introducing you to religion because those people will emphasize certain things. Like he could have fallen with the right crowd, so to speak, and it was about loving one another and, and all this stuff. Instead he probably fell with someone who's like. And look at the way they walk in this league, sinning left and right and, and they've got their pride nights and, and this man over here, Steph Curry, supposed to be a man of God, but he's cussing more than anybody else. Like all of that stuff is a weak brain that has been infiltrated with whatever manipulative message has come to him. It's not unlike, and I know this is going to make people go crazy, but when you talk about what turns people in certain parts of the world into, you know, like people, suicide bombers or whatever, it's that it's like a broken brain, a broken like psyche. And then the person that you turn to for guidance, for help, for support, for direction is someone who does not have a positive message. And that influence can turn someone who otherwise would be a regular person or a down the road person into a kind of an extremist.

[Dan Le Batard]

I wasn't terribly comfortable, even though I understand it with some of the pop psychology we were doing on Tiger woods, when we talk about some of this stuff that isn't excusing behavior but is attempting to explain the behavior here? The reason that I have never tried cocaine is because I know where it is. I'm addictive and I am compulsive. And I do not want to enter into one choice I make that then affects all other choices after that because now I don't have control over something. Do you believe in the case of Tiger woods giving the specifics of what it is that he had to sculpt to be great? Right. The loneliness of golf, the meticulous attention to detail. Wouldn't you think that that is someone who sort of predisposed to obsessive compulsive patterning? We are all a product of our learning, our environments, our experiences, our influences, all of this stuff. Would you not think that a personality type that had to do whatever Tiger woods had to do in order to be great would be someone who would be predisposed to being at the very least obsessive compulsive.

[Tony]

Yes. Especially knowing everything we now know about his father and their relationship. Tiger Woods. This is worth remembering. Tiger woods for about a five or seven year period was so good that you could bet the field or Tiger woods and a lot of people would bet Tiger woods over the field that he was going to win that tournament. And he did more than just win and win and win and win majors. He revolutionized the sport. Sport. But that was what was expected by his father. That was what was expected. That was. And so he wasn't ordained.

[Dan Le Batard]

Prophesied by his father. The first major article on Tiger woods was how his father was going to turn him into a God. The first thing written when he was a teenager. And then much of those things ended up coming true.

[Tony]

Yeah. And so falling just short of Jack Nick necklace on the all time major table was not good enough for Tiger. And it still isn't. And now he's turned 50 and he's got demons.

[Dan Le Batard]

So what do you think the audience is feeling as we talk about this? Is it for the wrongdoing? Right. For the crowd that says, hey, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Show me what a man looks like and man up. Don't talk to me about weaknesses of a fragile brain damaged by manic episodes. Don't talk to me about the weaknesses of addiction. Will your way beyond these things and behave like a professional.

[Mike]

I think the audience probably has fatigue, honestly. Because this is the way that this is playing out is super predictable. It's entering the political sphere and you're just consumed by the same stuff that you're always consumed by in this weird culture war. It's just weird. Sports are the ultimate meritocracy. Right. Kaepernick is invoked so often because Kaepernick made it to a Super bowl and he was very clearly black. Not everybody is under a Colin Kaepernick light plight. Enos came to freedom. Wasn't. And certainly this bust of a draft pick isn't for all the DEI projection. It's exactly that. Projection. Because this guy is flatly just not good enough to be in the league on his own merit. And when you add the fact that he's making everybody in the office uncomfortable and is having really unpredictable episodes on social media and in the workplace. This is an easy decision. Decision.

[Greg Cote]

I'm gonna tell you right now as a guy who's been in locker rooms nobody wants to like. Doesn't matter. Even if I agree with you on your religious Takes. Nobody likes that guy. Nobody likes that guy. Oh, Jesus Christ. And so, you know, one of the things like they said, did you do that on purpose?

[Dan Le Batard]

Jesus Christ.

[Greg Cote]

Conduct detrimental to the teams. Like, oh, ask my teammates, my teammates all love me or whatever. I'm like, I mean they can like you, but they can also be sick and tired of you coming around and trying to talk this stuff over and over.

[Roy]

To be fair, he did break his leg last. Has been rehabbing and trying to get back to. It's like that, that points to a physical situation where he hasn't been his best.

[Dan Le Batard]

Amin saying that a top five pick who's been in the league five years, which would put him at roughly his prime. Right? He's not an old player. He's not 30 yet. Correct. 24.

[Greg Cote]

23, 24.

[Mike]

Something like, he can still have a good career in Europe.

[Dan Le Batard]

So. But Amin saying this is a death sentence. Amin is saying this is not. This will not return to basketball. That he just, that right before heading into free agency, he just sealed his fate as he will never work in the league again.

[Greg Cote]

I think there's a couple of things there. Number one is like I said, basketball wise, was had not shown enough to be good enough. He had a good year or so in Detroit. He's been a very injury prone player in his career. Number two, again, this is some wild over the board stuff. Like I said, we're focusing on the anti lgbt. But again, he called out Steph Curry, he called out LeBron James, he called out the religion of Catholicism. Like he's sprayed across a wide map of all different targets and groups of people who are going to be pretty upset. Number three, Dan. Like we've all pointed out, he does not seem to be of sound mind. Like, and that's probably should be number one. It's like, I can't bring someone into my locker room who does not have it all there. There's a level of kind of like wild card we'll deal with. And then there's a point where it's like, no, this guy can do anything. This guy. When you, whenever you have someone who's invoking God like that in the way and saying that his mission is to spread and all that stuff, it's like, yo man, I'll tell you, the next thing that comes up usually is violence. Because when people don't want to come along with you on that ride, it's like, hey, I'm gonna force you on that ride with me. You can't trust a guy like that. And so for that reason, he won't play here. I don't even know if he'll play. Mike made a joke about him maybe playing in Europe. I don't know if he'll play there.

[Jeremy]

His mom is also the coach at Notre Dame. Like, like that part is, is what's crazy about this.

[Mike]

But the anti Catholic takes are stranger now.

[Jeremy]

That's what I'm saying. Like this is, this is someone who is clearly mentally ill and using Christianity as a, a muse for his mentally ill ramblings. Because you have someone here who is using the Bible in a way it's not intended to be used. Like I'm a Jewish person, but from what I understand about Christianity, there's a lot more time spent on, on poverty and greed and things like that than the, the bare mentions of homosexuality within the Bible. And yes, some people are going to use that as a means to then go ahead and be homophobic, but it's really just punching down on a marginalized people. It's, it's cowardly to do so. And of course to be able to, able to see it all happen through the musings of, of someone who is mentally ill. It's no different than someone who grasps onto Q Anon or anything else. It's using something as a mask for your mentally ill ramblings.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, but while he suffers from depression, you do understand, right, why we get no closer to a bridge on this stuff when he's saying these are my religious beliefs. This is who I am, this is my relationship God. This is how I think about gay people. And you dismiss that which he thinks is reasonable as mentally ill.

[Jeremy]

Right, but that's because that is like flatly not the tenant of the religion on its own. Like people who use Christianity or Judaism or Islam or anything to rail against a certain group of people. People are not following the tenets of said religion.

[Dan Le Batard]

Right, but that doesn't make them necessarily mentally ill. I'm willing to explore the idea of this being an episode. I'm not willing to say flatly that this is mental illness.

[Mike]

I can't say anything flatly these days. I feel comfortable calling this race when you consider all the behavior for such a long time. Dan, Some people are worth the discourse and some people are just a crazy guy outside of ultra telling you you're going to go to hell. Nobody likes that guy.

[Greg Cote]

Happened to me the other day. The comedy movie event of the year.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mike and Nick and Nick and Alice.

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[Dan Le Batard]

That's a great attitude.

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You sound insane. Starring Vince Vaughn, James Marston and Asa Gonzalez. I thought you were a clone. Well, clones aren't real, dummy. And time machines are super grounded in reality.

[Greg Cote]

Mike and Nick.

[Dan Le Batard]

And Nick and Alice.

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