The Sporting Class: Worldwide Leaders, Killer Apps, and Michael Jordan's Special Contribution

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Sporting Class: Worldwide Leaders, Killer Apps, and Michael Jordan's Special Contribution

Hosts: Pablo Torre, David Sampson, John Skipper
Episode Title: The Sporting Class: Worldwide Leaders, Killer Apps, and Michael Jordan's Special Contribution
Release Date: May 18, 2025

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1. Introduction and Light Banter (00:00 - 05:00)

The episode begins with Pablo Torre welcoming listeners and engaging in light-hearted conversation with co-hosts David Sampson and John Skipper. The hosts joke about haircuts and office snacks, setting a casual and humorous tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

• David Sampson (02:16): "You above all people know that I do observe a lot. I don't complain much."

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2. ESPN's Direct-to-Consumer (DTC) Strategy (08:05 - 19:43)

The hosts delve into ESPN's strategic pivot towards a Direct-to-Consumer (DTC) model. John Skipper, former president of ESPN, provides an in-depth analysis of ESPN's rebranding efforts and the challenges associated with launching a standalone app amidst declining cable subscriptions.

Key Points:

• Rebranding Efforts: ESPN's new app, referred to as "ESPN dc" or simply "ESPN," aims to consolidate all sports content under a single brand to avoid consumer confusion.
• Market Dynamics: The decline in traditional cable subscriptions, especially among younger demographics, has necessitated ESPN's shift towards a DTC model.
• Financial Projections: David Sampson expresses skepticism about the app's profitability, questioning subscriber expectations and revenue projections.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (10:30): "ESPN would always come out on top of that discussion."
• David Sampson (17:28): "It's showing there is barely any business, though it is showing that the shrinking platform that the commissioner in baseball talked about is true."

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3. Branding and Mergers in Business (05:30 - 10:36)

John Skipper draws parallels between ESPN's branding strategy and historical corporate mergers, using examples like Morgan Stanley's merger with Dean Witter to illustrate the complexities of maintaining a unified brand identity.

Key Points:

• Single Brand Advantage: Emphasizing the importance of a unified brand name to compete effectively in a crowded market.
• Historical Examples: References to Morgan Stanley Dean Witter and Federal Express highlight the challenges and eventual resolutions in corporate branding during mergers.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (12:25): "A better brand is a better brand."
• David Sampson (10:36): "There's two major discussions that happen. One, which of the CEOs is going to run the merged company?"

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4. Challenges in Hiring Special Contributors (Shaq, Charles Barkley) (45:23 - 50:04)

The conversation shifts to ESPN's difficulties in attracting high-profile sports figures like Shaquille O'Neal and Charles Barkley as special contributors. John Skipper recounts past attempts and the resistance met from these personalities who value their autonomy.

Key Points:

• Shaq's Decline: Attempts to recruit Shaquille O'Neal were unsuccessful due to his reluctance to commit to ESPN's demands.
• Charles Barkley's Stance: Barkley remains firm in maintaining control over his contributions, resisting roles that require extensive commitments.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (46:08): "We tried very hard to get Shaq when he was available."
• Pablo Torre (47:51): "They're not going to work me like a dog and not pay me."

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5. Michael Jordan's Potential Role (38:27 - 43:44)

The hosts discuss ESPN's pursuit of Michael Jordan as a special contributor. There is skepticism about the feasibility and value of integrating Jordan into ESPN's offerings, with debates on the financial implications and expected contributions.

Key Points:

• Special Contributor Role: Speculation on whether Michael Jordan will actively contribute content or primarily serve a marketing role.
• Financial Considerations: Debates on the appropriateness of compensation packages for high-profile figures like Jordan.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (40:04): "If you're sitting around a room going, we now have the NBA. Who do we want on the air? You say Michael Jordan."
• David Sampson (42:09): "Maybe that was Jordan's number when he came out of retirement."

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6. Data Privacy and Its Value (24:32 - 25:13)

John Skipper and David Sampson explore the significance of data in the modern DTC landscape. They discuss how ESPN can leverage subscriber data for personalized advertising, though they express skepticism about the actual value derived from limited data sets.

Key Points:

• Data Collection: ESPN's ability to gather and utilize subscriber data to enhance advertising strategies.
• Privacy Concerns: Addressing consumer apprehensions regarding data privacy and personalized ads.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (25:03): "Netflix is everything when you have a lot of data."
• David Sampson (24:32): "Everybody's trying to collect [data]."

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7. Disney’s Expansion into Abu Dhabi (33:22 - 37:53)

The hosts pivot to discuss Disney's strategic move to build a theme park in Abu Dhabi. They analyze the motivations behind this expansion, including brand association and financial incentives provided by the Abu Dhabi government.

Key Points:

• Strategic Partnership: Disney's collaboration with Abu Dhabi may involve significant financial incentives in exchange for brand presence.
• Cultural and Ethical Considerations: Debate over Disney engaging in business with regions that may have conflicting cultural or ethical standards.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (34:03): "The president's job is not to grow his personal wealth. It is the job of a CEO to grow the wealth of his company."
• David Sampson (37:20): "I associate the brand. The reason this surprised me is my view of Disney is very much all American."

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8. Conclusion and Final Remarks (51:53 - 52:10)

As the episode wraps up, the hosts continue their trademark banter, addressing minor disturbances in the studio and setting the stage for future discussions.

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Key Takeaways:

• ESPN's Transition: ESPN is strategically shifting towards a DTC model to adapt to declining traditional cable subscriptions, focusing on unified branding and leveraging subscriber data.

• Challenges in Talent Acquisition: Attracting high-profile sports personalities remains a significant hurdle for ESPN, impacting its content and market positioning.

• Data Utilization: While data presents opportunities for personalized advertising, its practical value is contingent on the volume and quality of data collected.

• Global Expansion: Disney's ventures into international markets like Abu Dhabi highlight the complex interplay between brand growth and ethical considerations.

Notable Quotes:

• John Skipper (10:30): "ESPN would always come out on top of that discussion."
• David Sampson (17:28): "It's showing there is barely any business, though it is showing that the shrinking platform that the commissioner in baseball talked about is true."
• John Skipper (40:04): "If you're sitting around a room going, we now have the NBA. Who do we want on the air? You say Michael Jordan."
• John Skipper (25:03): "Netflix is everything when you have a lot of data."
• David Sampson (37:20): "I associate the brand. The reason this surprised me is my view of Disney is very much all American."

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This episode provides an insightful exploration into the evolving landscape of sports media, highlighting the strategic maneuvers of major players like ESPN and Disney amid shifting consumer behaviors and technological advancements. The candid discussions between Torre, Sampson, and Skipper offer listeners a nuanced understanding of the challenges and opportunities within the industry.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. Today's episode is brought to you by DraftKings. DraftKings. The Crown is yours. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[David Sampson]

I get great cargo shorts and undies.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[John Skipper]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Eddie]

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[Pablo Torre]

Glad, David, that you're here and you're not complaining about anything yet. Well, you did clean up my hair. I guess so.

[John Skipper]

I don't think you complained about your hair.

[David Sampson]

It was an observation. Observations are not complaints.

[John Skipper]

I wish I had that hair.

[David Sampson]

They don't look great.

[John Skipper]

I wish I had that hair.

[Pablo Torre]

Isn't Observations are not Complaints the title of the David Sampson story? Just a series of observations. Totally neutral observations.

[David Sampson]

You above all people know that I do observe a lot. I don't complain much. I don't like the dearth of snacks that exist right now in the office. I'm hungry, I'm grumpy.

[Pablo Torre]

John, can you put your headphones on? I guess is the other thing. Very good, Eddie.

[F]

Now.

[Pablo Torre]

Jesus Christ.

[David Sampson]

First time you've been doing this.

[Pablo Torre]

How long? When did we start doing this show? Coca, when did we start doing the show? Can you tell me in my ear because I have my headphones on. When we started this. When I started doing this with.

[David Sampson]

So the way it started, I started just with John and we were missing a third piece. And when we asked you to host this, August 2023. Wow. Do you remember what you said? You said, listen, I'm gonna listen anyway. I might as well participate. So therefore, it's the same hour that I'm spending.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[John Skipper]

It was sort of like Mo and Larry without Curly. Curly.

[David Sampson]

Dan got upset that you chose to do this.

[Pablo Torre]

I got to be Curly.

[David Sampson]

Yes. So Dan wanted to be Curly, but he couldn't commit to the necessary time to be curly. And then you stepped in and then off to the races. And he's commented from time to time like, hey, you know, I could sit in that chair. I said, yes, that's true.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, this chair, the structural integrity is already a bit on the brink. It's good to see both of you guys, by the way. John, David. John, are you happy to be here? David is seemingly always, as himself, kind of conflicted.

[John Skipper]

I'm very happy to be here, including with you, Mr. Sampson.

[David Sampson]

Thank you.

[John Skipper]

Very nice to be here. And good, good head of hair.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you crying?

[David Sampson]

That was emotional for me. He's happy to be with me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

I'm surrounded, you understand? I'm surrounded in this company by people who are not happy to have me around.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, what we love is podcasting. We love the game, David. We love what we do together.

[David Sampson]

I have a story before we start.

[Pablo Torre]

No one asked you for the story.

[David Sampson]

Okay. It's a funny story about this show.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[David Sampson]

It's a true story about the show. I was in an Uber on the way to the studio and this had not happened to me yet. The driver of the Uber knew about, recognized my name and me and didn't ask about Survivor, didn't ask about nothing personal. Didn't ask about the Marlins. He was asking and mentioned that he listens to sporting class. That happened about 20 minutes ago.

[Pablo Torre]

And what did he want to know about us?

[David Sampson]

Just. That's it. He just was happy to see us.

[John Skipper]

He is captive to the radio.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

He's driving all that.

[John Skipper]

He's got a lot of choices, though.

[David Sampson]

But maybe a lot of things to say.

[Pablo Torre]

Maybe he saw David holding up the app and mouthing to him. There's a tip at the end of this compliment our sports business show.

[David Sampson]

I have a set tip.

[Pablo Torre]

What is it?

[David Sampson]

It's basically between 15 and 18% depending on size of Uber, on how expensive uber is. Over $100. 15%. Under $100. 18%.

[John Skipper]

That's helpful.

[David Sampson]

Do you not do you Uber all the time? You do not do it that way.

[Pablo Torre]

I do the automated thing. I don't even look five stars. And whatever the automated option is, I'm saying give them that.

[David Sampson]

There a difference between me and you right there in a nutshell.

[John Skipper]

And the difference between the three of us is I never have any interest in rating. You know, every time I make a phone call now, it says rate your phone call. I'm like, well, I was in an argument. Does that mean it's a bad phone call or are you asking about the quality of it?

[David Sampson]

Not now.

[John Skipper]

I know I do every time I'd like to be able to hit a thing that says please never ask me to rate, like post comment.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on. When I say that we're podcasters, John. The whole thing is that our audience needs to know. Any Uber drivers out there need to know, like subscribe. Five stars.

[David Sampson]

Thank you.

[John Skipper]

However, it would not surprise you to find that my reflex tip at all times is whatever the highest option is.

[David Sampson]

So that's about. That's about 22% on. On top of everything. Although, do you now tip anytime you go buy a bagel at H and H? And I love H and H shouting out even though they're not a sponsor. I shouldn't say it, but now when you get a bagel, there's a place when you do Apple pay for adding a tip. And I hit no tip. Yeah, I feel I don't normally tip when I get.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't co sign David's no tip on the bagel strategy you tip on.

[David Sampson]

So do you tip on top when you go to a newsstand and buy, you know, a stick?

[Pablo Torre]

I round up.

[David Sampson]

Rounding up is different than tipping. Rounding up is you're too busy to wait for change.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that's a bit of a motive that you've assessed.

[John Skipper]

For me, it's not about the not waiting. It's about I do not want to carry a bunch of coins in my pocket.

[David Sampson]

Yeah, I don't have coins in my pocket.

[Pablo Torre]

But you just have them in a pool that you dive into after work.

[David Sampson]

Exactly. Right.

[G]

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[Pablo Torre]

I think we need to start with ESPN though. And I say that knowing that John Skipper to my right here, former president of ESPN who had to figure out something like the decision that has just been made around the direct to consumer product that is the future of espn. A huge part of the Walt Disney Company, which is it's app, it's DTC app. Do you want to give the fine print on this?

[David Sampson]

I want to give the branding first because remember there was the talk of it being flagship, but they didn't like that. So what they announced is their new thing that they've been working on for multiple years, if not multiple CEOs and presidents is called the four letters that we all associate and love and associate with the worldwide leader espn. Wait for it. That's the name of it. They called it that Brilliance.

[John Skipper]

It's a good name. It's a good name.

[Pablo Torre]

But we've seen just before we get into the brass tacks of the numbers and the pricing, like Max, we hardly knew you like the name has been messed up actively.

[John Skipper]

One of the advantages we enjoyed at ESPN before I got there, while I was there and since I am not there, is that we have a single brand. Remember ESPN took over the sports on ABC and called it ESPN on abc.

[Pablo Torre]

How hard was that?

[John Skipper]

That was painful for the ABC Sports people, right? Great tradition, lots of runarledge. I mean, ABC Sports was a great brand name, Wide World of Sports. But we had decided long ago at the company we had one sports brand and it was highly advantageous as we were competing with the company that owned AOL Sports and Sports Illustrated and cnn. SI and this Turner. The idea of having multiple brand names for a single genre is baffling. And it usually has nothing to do with the fact of anything other than that these Sports Illustrated people don't want to sublimate their name to aol, nor does AOL want to sublimate their name. Somebody at the top of an organization needs to say, we have one brand name for sports. In our case it was ESPN and we were always fortunate to compete against people who had multiple brand names.

[David Sampson]

Let me talk for a minute about mergers and how that works. So when two companies merge, one of the things they're seeing when two companies.

[Pablo Torre]

Love each other very much.

[David Sampson]

No, they don't love each other. They're doing it to try to bolster both of their Stock prices. But there's two major discussions that happen. One, which of the CEOs is going to run the merged company? Because you have two CEOs and two, what's the name of the company going to be?

[Pablo Torre]

And the name is how fraught an argument.

[David Sampson]

It is major. So I'm going to mention Morgan Stanley. Very quickly, Morgan Stanley merged with Dean Witter and it became Morgan Stanley Dean Witter for a minute. And then Dean Witter disappeared and it's back to Morgan Stanley. Law firms do this. Where Proscow arose, there's five names after it. But Proscow arose, Federal Express became FedEx. People have a way of saying things. ESPN. To your point, that is what people say. That's what they associate. No matter what ESPN buys or who they merge with, ESPN would always come out on top of that discussion.

[John Skipper]

We bought a soccer website in the UK back in 2000. It was called Soccernet.com and I had the great privilege to be in charge of it. Cause I was running ESPN at the.

[Pablo Torre]

Time because you love soccer.

[John Skipper]

And I said, great, we're gonna call this ESPN FC or ESPN Football or ESPN Soccer. And they're like, oh, we can't do that. The people who know Soccernet.com will be upset. They won't be upset. People, they will not be upset. They care about the content. As long as it's not confusing. They have trouble finding it. They don't know what they're getting. They. A better brand is a better brand. My first appearance at ESPN was to start the magazine. They'd started a magazine and it was called Total Sports.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I didn't know this.

[John Skipper]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

As a former ESPN the Magazine employee, I didn't realize it was something else.

[John Skipper]

It was called Total Sports. And the first thing I said was, well, why isn't it called espn, which is what we call the magazine? And they said, well, because people think of ESPN as a television station. They don't think we have expertise in magazines. And it was all, people want to have their own brand.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, hold. But hold on though. Just because I'm trying to now put the pieces together. So, John, is it true that what I am finding out today is that you are responsible for the name ESPN the Magazine?

[John Skipper]

No. Yes. But it was ESPN the Magazine.

[Pablo Torre]

But I'm just saying, like.

[John Skipper]

And that was.

[Pablo Torre]

There was no comma, is there a more? But so the tongue in cheek part of it, it's just the most clear embodiment of the philosophy you're articulating is the fact that the magazine was Called ESPN the Magazine, but it was called.

[John Skipper]

By one and all pretty much espn.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, so.

[John Skipper]

And by the way, ESPN Dotcom, at one point we took the dot com off. Right. It's a good decision in my opinion to call this espn. Why try to confuse people? And by the way, that's the marketing. You want espn, here is the best way to get it. Buy our app, get everything, all the bells and whistles, which they keep saying. Not sure which bells and which whistles yet.

[David Sampson]

I don't know who told Bob Iger what to talk about, but I was shocked at the way he described this. I understand why they've been building to this. And everyone in the market is petrified of CNN Pl petrified of what happened.

[Pablo Torre]

They were open for a day of CNN plus.

[David Sampson]

Right. And there was a huge bill of that. They were signing talent. There was going to be.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, there was a lineup of. There's a lineup of the whole thing.

[David Sampson]

And I believe, am I wrong that it was on for a day? Is it. It may be. I'll take the over on a day. But it was not a year. I don't even think it was a month.

[John Skipper]

It was brief. I don't think it was a day.

[Pablo Torre]

March 29, 2022, shut down.

[David Sampson]

April 28, 2022, it was almost a month. That's pretty good. My memory's wrong. I thought it was like the next day.

[Pablo Torre]

But the question of. And that was not even a reflection of the quality of the shows that they had lined up. It was this larger.

[John Skipper]

John. Well, the problem there too was it was a different entity. This new app streaming service is just overwhelmingly an aggregation of content. You can already get either on ESPN or on your cable subscription. There are these so called bells and whistles that will provide, oh, you know, if you round up maybe 1% of the value here for the difference numbers.

[Pablo Torre]

But the difference to be clear, right, if you're a consumer, what espn, which has always existed as ESPN standalone app, what it did not give you was the stuff that you get as a fan of certainly live events through your cable subscription, all the best.

[John Skipper]

Well, that's because they couldn't. Right. You had deals with the distributors that had requirements as to where else you could put the content they were paying you a lot of money for. Clearly at this point they have moved to a place and the cable television universe has declined to a place where ESPN has no choice but to say, we still want to be in business with you, DirecTV, Spectrum, et cetera, et cetera. But we're going to make our content available to our subscribers, to our fans directly, if that's the way they want to get it. Now the compromise is, but if they already have a DirecTV subscription, they get this automatically. So they're, they're used using that of course to say to the distributors, we're not looking to disrupt your business at all.

[David Sampson]

It's showing there is barely any business, though it is showing that the shrinking platform that the commissioner in baseball talked.

[John Skipper]

About is true, but it's not de minimis. It's certainly not diminished. 50 million subscribers at somewhere 120 free spin, 120 million or 10 times 12. $120 a year for 50 million subscribers is not de minimis.

[David Sampson]

And by the way, that's going this.

[John Skipper]

Way, it is going that way down. But the curve of that going down will, will decline slightly, meaning it will go down slower. At some point, some number of people will just keep the cable. So they just will.

[David Sampson]

They're all going to die.

[John Skipper]

They will die eventually.

[David Sampson]

So I don't, I don't view that as right. It's not spoiler alert like Half Life in Half Life.

[John Skipper]

Well, but the steepness of the curve.

[Pablo Torre]

Though, John, is the question that informed when do we finally launch the DTC option? Which is something that you could have done, but clearly it took until 2025.

[John Skipper]

Why would you do it when you have 90 million, 80 million, 70 million subscribers? It still would be an interesting mathematical parlay to know when the lines cross that more people pay them directly than get their subscription through somebody else. I would argue it's not going to be this year, next year or the year after. It will be several years before the lines cross and more. They've got projections and more money.

[David Sampson]

They've got projections. When you unveil an app like this internally, Bob Iger is not allowing this to happen without a financial plan of what's going to happen. How many people are going to pay 29.99amonth. How many people are going to pay for the whole year? Pay the 300 bucks that it cost to get it. What are you getting? And what we heard from Jimmy P. And Bob Iger is, hey, you're going to get ESPN as though you had it through cable, as though you had it. It's, it's actually spn. Well, I'm a Hulu Live guy. I get espn. I'm not sure why I need to spend. It's like to me, a venue where it's like paying extra for a site to have stuff that I already can get. Yeah, it's a little more convenient one place, but for $29.99 a month, I don't think I need it. Which is why they went to the hey, there's some bells and whistles. You get personalized sports center and all such other stuff.

[John Skipper]

Of course, I'm skeptical of bells and whistles. You know, you'll be able to sync up your bet, your bet you've made on this game and see on the screen whether you're winning or not. That is of fairly de minimis interest to most sports fans. Again, people have been talking about camera angles, special mega cast for a long time. And mostly people care about the game as it is played and produced on a linear network. I mean, that is the why sports retains so much of its value now. They may come up with some things eventually, but it actually, you also have the problem of every subscriber who cancels their subscription to Spectrum and buys and buys the Disney app. I don't, I'd have to. You'd have to do some projections. But my guess would be those subscribers are have less net income per unit than the subscribers who are on the cable system. On the cable system, you have no cost for customer service. You don't have to bill anybody. You don't have to have any bells and whistles.

[David Sampson]

You just, you got the cable man who never comes.

[John Skipper]

Well, they're not paying for the cable man.

[David Sampson]

Yeah, I guess we are, but you.

[John Skipper]

Know, yeah, you are. ESPN's not paying. It's a beautiful model to get 10, 12 bucks a month and it is pure profit.

[Pablo Torre]

But the beautiful model I keep on, it's just funny. There are still people out in the world who need to listen to this show we do together called the Sporting Class. Clearly. Because what John said once is the thing that I keep on repeating to people and they're flabbergasted. The idea that ESPN at its peak made more than the rest of the Walt Disney Company combined because of the beautiful model that John is describing. And so the question about the pricing schedule must be in this era, by the way, in which we're just tossing around terms like venue, the ill fated skinny bundle we've talked about previously, and Max, the ill fated branding for HBO which got just this week switched back in that era, how do you price this thing? And so David alluded to some of the pricing of it, right? $299 per year in addition to a select plan which offers all content available on ESPN for 1199 per month or $119 per year. There's some fine print there. But you know, if you go with Disney and Hulu, introductory offer, all three services 29.99 for the first year, we're getting into the language of as I used to hear as a New Yorker, you know, the triple play is the deal. Like these jingles from cable companies. We are in that era for DTC now.

[David Sampson]

Well, we're now. Bundling is my favorite word because what we talked about was breaking the bundle and having people go a la carte and pay for what they want. That was the whole argument of why people were cutting their cord. I don't want to pay for a baseball game that I don't want to watch. Now what all these companies are jumping over each other to do is to bundle and give the consumer an offer and the ability to get more than one streaming service. You put them all together and you pay a price per month. And what it leads to is you pay more, you end up paying more. And so it's been one of the great grifts. It, it makes me so happy be from a, from a stockholder standpoint is that people have not yet figured out that they're paying more per month. And there we almost got caught just now with the NFL schedule release.

[Pablo Torre]

Why?

[David Sampson]

Because it was announced where the NFL is going to have games on YouTube and games here. Games. There's someone added up how much it would be to get every NFL game. And it became a lot of money. And I got nervous because if people start paying attention to that, there's going to be a bit of a kick back.

[John Skipper]

And this is from the league that said they were going to be free for as long as possible. Well that inspired and they were and that was a fine place to be at the time. But there's a reason is 29.95 the cable operators are paying probably at this point 1112 bucks for ESPN 10. 1112 bucks.

[Pablo Torre]

29.99 by the way.

[John Skipper]

Yeah, 29.994 cents.

[Pablo Torre]

Very relevant.

[John Skipper]

So they're already having to charge more money to get to the same economics on the customer and get ready for something else, which you'll love, which is. And they've already done it on ESPN plus if you want to, if you want to watch the really high profile UFC match or a high profile boxing match, you got to pay extra. I will bet you this app has the capability to say, you know, we would love to give you that Alabama Georgia game free, but we've decided this year we're going to charge an extra 499 for that game.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, by the way, pay per view.

[John Skipper]

It's called pay per view, but it's going to be good business.

[David Sampson]

But.

[John Skipper]

But you're going to. People think pay per view has to be the Tom Brady road. Well, it wasn't a cost. It has to be a big boxing match, a big UFC match. We've talked on this show before that the super bowl will be a pay per view event.

[Pablo Torre]

This is John's most long standing take. Is that the money?

[John Skipper]

Oh, I got other long standing takes that were wrong, so this could be as well. But I'm consistent in my.

[Pablo Torre]

The phone, espn, the phone. Another long standing.

[John Skipper]

But you're going. As they struggle with delivering the growth to the shareholders, they're going to say, how else can we make money? Oh, we have these people captive. We have their information. We can send them something.

[Pablo Torre]

So talk about the information about data as well.

[John Skipper]

Well, data is interesting and it will be. People will overestimate how valuable it's going to be. You still don't get much data from having somebody on an app. You can ask them to give you some. Who are your favorite teams? You, you know, where do you live? How much money do you have? Maybe you'll give it to them, maybe you won't. They can do implied data. They can take the outside data, put it against their files and find out where people live, where likely, what kind of cars they have. But then what are you going to do with it? I guess. I guess you would do better. You do advertising, you'll go to more return on investment advertising. It will work somewhat, but it.

[David Sampson]

That is everything, though everyone's trying to collect.

[John Skipper]

Netflix is everything when you have a lot of data. Data is not worth very much at all when you have a little data. And it's worth a lot if you have a scalable. And if you have a mechanism to deliver more personalized ads. Nobody delivers completely personalized ads. Everybody's had the phenomenon of talking about going to take a Greek cruise and suddenly you get ads. So there you're getting a personal ad.

[David Sampson]

Well, because your phone's listening to you.

[John Skipper]

Yeah, because you.

[David Sampson]

I get that every day. Maybe I assume we all do now.

[John Skipper]

But cut that off. And you don't get personalized ads. You still get the same ads.

[David Sampson]

Oh, I get the best chargers for my devices. I got things to help with cords that are all tangled. I get great cargo shorts and undies. It is the ads that get pushed.

[Pablo Torre]

To me so worried about David Sampson's opsec as, as they say in the Defense Department, I'm not at all.

[David Sampson]

I, I would just also add that with the projections. I don't want to get off that if you don't mind, because when Iger pitches this, there's an investment here, quite a bit of infrastructure investment. There is an assumption that there will be X number of subscribers and there's then a growth rate that's implied right onto this first number. And you have to get back to analysts, you have to get back to Wall street, you have to get, get back to your board and if they don't get the crossover that you're talking about with people signing up for this flagship, that's how. And we're going to call it flagship, even though it's.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, let's not call it flagship.

[David Sampson]

So we call it ESPN dc. The. Is that what you're going to call.

[Pablo Torre]

It for short, ESPN the app.

[David Sampson]

Not enough people purchase the app and become subscribers on a monthly and annual basis because they don't feel as though they're getting any incremental benefit to what they already have. This app is not going to work and it will be gone.

[John Skipper]

Yeah, the app, in my opinion, the app will work. I mean they will.

[David Sampson]

How long would you give it. How long before you have to show your board that it worked?

[John Skipper]

At least three to five years.

[David Sampson]

I was saying two years in this day.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, let's walk through this because for me it's very obvious that every company, it's the most obvious thing that ESPN was going to do this at some point such that even John, I assume. John, at some. Do you remember actually, because I want to give a bit of the logic behind the scenes here. Do you remember when this was first presented to you as a possibility that hey, this is something we should consider.

[John Skipper]

The first year that cable subscriptions went down was 2012. So in 2012 would have been the first time that there began to be discussions about if this declines, what is going to replace it. And you're already having things that were starting as apps, right? As businesses, we are aware that that's another way to do business. And I think that they are actually have made about the right call on timing that doing it. Before this they would just given money away, but now they have to because you've reached a point in the pay television universe where particularly when you look at it age wise, right? So lots and lots of young people, the most valuable people that advertisers want are giving up their cable subs. So it's not just they're called never.

[David Sampson]

Quarters now actually, because they never. They're not cutting their cords. They actually now never even have to start with.

[John Skipper]

But they're more valuable customers and now there's enough of them that they have to do it now. But their timing is pretty good and I think they will get a. This uptake will not be enormous. I don't think you're going to see 5 million subs at the end of one year. The only person really who needs this is the person who still has a cable television subscription and wants to get rid of it. Or the never court. You call them Never Quarters, Never Quarters.

[David Sampson]

Did you. You've heard that before?

[Pablo Torre]

Somehow I hadn't.

[David Sampson]

Okay, I may have it wrong then.

[John Skipper]

Because you're waiting, but you've got enough of those. They have to do it now. It will work. Over time they're going to be successful. The only question is how successful and.

[David Sampson]

How quickly and how big a Runway.

[John Skipper]

Did Disney give them and how satisfactory is where they get to for the shareholders. And if they don't get to a place, do they become a target for someone else to acquire them? Right, because it's judged that they would be more valuable in a different aggregation.

[David Sampson]

The reason why you started in 2012 is that what your company realized is that your revenue was going down and your expenses had no avenue to go down because leagues were not giving you a break on the rights deals and you were stuck in long term contracts. And if you have fixed expenses with declining revenue, that's it. That's how a business goes under. So those discussions have to start. And here we are 13 years later. So I would argue that ESPN, it's not the perfect time because they have had declining results in that area. Now they've made up for it.

[John Skipper]

They've had declining results, they have not had declining revenue. The decline of subscriptions until very recently was under the increase in per subscriber rate. ESPN was getting 7% increases every year in what these cable operators were paying them. The until very recently the descriptions weren't declining 7%. The more important fact which you just mentioned was the rights fees on the other hand were going up. Now rights fees in a long term contract are only going up 2, 3 or 4%. So you're fine. Subscriptions go down 3%. Um, rates, your rights fees go up 3%.

[David Sampson]

What's eating at your margin though? It's eating at your margin. I mean, I understand you're fine.

[John Skipper]

You're correct. And the margins were declining even back in 2012, 13, 14, and that's what.

[David Sampson]

They'D say on Wall Street. I mean, that's when you talk about why stock prices are not going up the way they should. It's because what John just said, when you have declining margins, that means you have declining earnings per share.

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[Pablo Torre]

I think the way that I have come to understand how you guys see this in our, you know, perpetual quest to explain as rich guys only fans, what it's like in these board meetings is is the arrow green or red? Is it growing or is it going down and managed Decline has been certainly like an undeniable phenomenon since 2012 is the date John gave us. But at the same time, when it comes to the end, this is now cleanup Isle Sampson Cord Nevers.

[David Sampson]

Oh, I got it. Opposite.

[Pablo Torre]

Very, very.

[John Skipper]

It's probably true that most of them were never cords either.

[David Sampson]

Never quarters.

[Pablo Torre]

Never quarters.

[John Skipper]

They were never quarters either.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a funny old person thing to flip the term that describes a young person.

[David Sampson]

Guilty.

[Pablo Torre]

But I but I thank you for that cleanup.

[David Sampson]

Really important stuff there, Pablo.

[John Skipper]

Even if ESPN has some decline, it still is a significant contributor to the bottom line and the reason they build a theme park, which they, I think they just announced as well in the Middle east is because they believe that will allow them to show overall, because people buy Disney stock, there is no ESPN stock. So you really have to look at it. And I know you know this as a collection of assets, some of which may have a green era, some which may have a red era. That may change year to year. Right.

[David Sampson]

Do you think Abu Dhabi is getting a Disney Park? Because there's a lot of people in Abu Dhabi who want to go to a Disney park. I read that news totally differently and we didn't talk about this, but I assumed that it was some sort of other deal involving the government, involving Disney, which gave them quite a bit of incentive to build a park.

[John Skipper]

I would assume that. Where are they building it?

[David Sampson]

I thought, Did I get above Abu Dhabi? No, I thought it was Abu Dhabi.

[John Skipper]

I would assume the government of Abu Dhabi is paying them a very handsome amount of money to build a park there because they want the, the brand halo that they get from having a Disney park. You build a park there, you are basically giving the Disney imprimatur to the government of that country and they paid for it.

[David Sampson]

Much like getting a plane.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, speaking of the planes, right? Like that's part of. It's part of the whole Middle Eastern strategy.

[John Skipper]

It's a little different, I would say. Well, it's a little different. I would say the. I would say that the president's job is not to grow his personal wealth. It is the job of a co to grow the wealth of his company.

[David Sampson]

So this is a great point you're making because therefore you're saying it's fine when companies are doing business in places where it is less than, shall we say, moral. You're totally fine with that?

[John Skipper]

No, I didn't say I was totally fine. I just said there is a. There is a hierarchy or literal egregiousness and an individual getting a plane when he exit office. If the CEO of the company was getting a plane from Abu Dhabi, that would become his personal plane upon retirement, which is what will happen. No matter what the President says, you will get that plane. It will be part of his library.

[David Sampson]

Do you not think that Bob Iger will have use of a private plane as part of his severance package?

[John Skipper]

I expect that the consideration given from the Abu Dhabi, from Abu Dhabi to Disney will not go into Bob Iger's pocket other than the compensation he gets for doing a good job. Other than that, that's different than taking. Yeah, you think Bob Iger get away with taking a plane. I'm not saying it's literally personal use.

[David Sampson]

I'm telling you that the deal with Abu Dhabi is not because Disney did market research around the world and said, oh, my God, I've got it. We need a park in Abu Dhabi.

[John Skipper]

Right now, the world of all business is rushing to the Middle east because they will spend money for reasons other than seeing a direct financial return.

[Pablo Torre]

Well.

[John Skipper]

And they have a lot of it.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, we saw, by the way, the world of politics and business converge on the Middle east as part of this whole week in which it turns out that when, in this case, at least when the cable television ecosystem is drying up, you gotta find some places where there is ability to make profit, to increase earnings. And so the plain thing, what I'm gonna say briefly is that, look, the premise of it is Abu Dhabi, Dubai, these airports, which are very nice and have very nice planes, admittedly. Right. That's part of the marketing for those regimes. And so they're saying, hey, you wanna come from Shanghai, Hong Kong to a Disney park, guess what you can do? And this very beautiful, high class, luxurious thing that also may or may not just, I don't know, some unsavory, let's say, less than American ideals that you're sort of like flying over.

[David Sampson]

Quite literally, I view Disney. I associate the brand. The reason this surprised me is my view of Disney is very much all American. It's very Disney, pure Disney. They don't want it. They're upset with all the McAfee stuff. Like, they don't want any part of that. And then they're building a park in Abu Dhabi. It blew my mind until I started doing the math.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, there's also just omnipresent, like we. Again, we have to. This is a separate episode, truly, and we should do it. And I am doing episodes about this too. But just like the Middle east and its role as the bankroller of media, entertainment, sports, Disney is part of this true week of stuff in which everybody is getting into business in a way that's obvious.

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[Pablo Torre]

I want to get to Michael Jordan. Can we do that? David is not interested. Okay, you're not interested?

[David Sampson]

No, I mean listen. The NBA has made its bed with new partners. There's new TV deals that start next year. NBC has really played it up that they're back in the business. They're, they're, they're calling out the 1990s with the round Ball Rock theme which is John Tesh, my favorite guy. I love you, Connie Celica. But what was that shout out? Connie Celica is Gil Gerard's ex wife who's now married to John Tesh. She was in the Greatest American Hero. That is Hotel. Am I the only man?

[John Skipper]

Got some information.

[David Sampson]

Okay. That's just called puberty, but okay. And so Google this person. You've never heard of Connie Celica. I mean we can edit this out because I'm so upset right now.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't think we're gonna listen.

[John Skipper]

Let's move on. Michael Jordan.

[David Sampson]

So Michael Jordan, he is part of the 90s, sort of.

[John Skipper]

Well, wait. He's the arguably, I would argue the greatest player in the history of the NBA and the second, potentially the most popular player in the history of the.

[Pablo Torre]

NBA and merely the second most relevant Jordan in the world of North Carolina these days. John, notably I'm sparing you from my.

[John Skipper]

Own investigation there and it's a coup to get him. How good he'll be, I don't know. But if you are sitting around a room going, we now have the NBA. Who do we want on the air? You say Michael Jordan. The first thing you would get around the table is we would never get him.

[David Sampson]

He's not going to be on the air.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a special contributor.

[John Skipper]

Isn't that what he keeps saying? A special contributor.

[Pablo Torre]

What does that. So I want to get into the room though, right? In which, okay, guess what? You've acquired this rights deal for billions of dollars and he got to staff it with, you know, the, they're not.

[David Sampson]

Staffing it with Jordan. They did a contract where he has to make several appearances. He taped something for the upfronts. He didn't even show up at the up front. They did a tape of.

[Pablo Torre]

That's a funny, that's a funny signal.

[David Sampson]

So, so to me you have to manage expectations.

[Pablo Torre]

We bought this hologram of Michael Jordan.

[John Skipper]

Look, it's marketing. If, if nothing else it will be successful marketing that they are getting associated. We just talked about the Abu Dhabi wanting to be Associated with the Walt Disney brand. They want to be associated with the Jordan brand.

[David Sampson]

Do you think his first contribution will be him giving an interview to somebody or doing the interview of somebody? If you're a special contributor there, you're working on stories, it will be the former.

[John Skipper]

They will be interviewing him. We're going to have something that Michael Jordan is going to say about the upcoming game.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't think Michael Jordan.

[John Skipper]

Michael's going to give us 10 minutes on who he thinks is going to win the championship this year. Yeah, do I?

[David Sampson]

He's going to meet with advertisers. He's going to be a Fox deal. Well, I would assume depending on the number. See, with Brady, we got the number. And part of the number was not just being the number one analyst. It was he had to do up fronts, he had to do ambassador work. We have to see what special contributor means. If he's getting 7 million a year, that's one thing. If he's getting 30 million a year, that's a wholly different thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[John Skipper]

It'd be hard for me to understand why he would do it for $7 million a year. Isn't he a billionaire?

[David Sampson]

Yes. You become a billionaire by making money. Well, I realize, but let's aggregate that clip. Hachu, Hachu. I mean, why would you. Someone offers you 7 million a year, like, oh, no, sorry.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, you're talking to the guy.

[John Skipper]

You'Re not talking to a billionaire. But if somebody said to me, you know, for, for, for $96 a month I would like you to do something, I would say no. And this is probably about 7 million would be about $96 a month for Michael Jordan.

[David Sampson]

Oh, I love it. Proportionally to me, that's my favorite the argument of oh, when he gambles on $10,000 on a golf hole he makes, he has enough money. That's the equivalent of you and I on a weekend gambling $5. I get that math. It is the correct.

[John Skipper]

But it is not how very well.

[David Sampson]

To do people think someone to do nothing you would do it. Why would you turn down that's like an Uber per month free.

[John Skipper]

Well, one, it's an interesting supposition. Somebody would offer me $96 to do nothing a month. And I know you'll be surprised, but I wouldn't take it. Why would I take money to do nothing?

[David Sampson]

It's my goal.

[Pablo Torre]

David would love to be a special contributor to any organization out there that wants a no show contribution.

[John Skipper]

You know what? I'd like to offer my services right now as a Special contributor to anybody Listen, listening. Who is prepared to pay a thousand dollars a month for. So that's no contributor.

[David Sampson]

So your number is not 96 now.

[John Skipper]

We're just always said you asked me about the Middle east one time trillions. I believe everybody is prepared at some number minus a trillion right now.

[David Sampson]

So your number's a thousand though you.

[Pablo Torre]

Said you should have an ongoing chart. By the way. The way that people have stock charts. What would we do to sell out to the Middle East? Currently the bar is at $1 trillion. That may adjust over time.

[John Skipper]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

And we already know he'll do something for $1,000. 96. Not good enough.

[Pablo Torre]

That's hell of a negotiation that's happening right now.

[John Skipper]

My only point was to make the point that I always wonder why people do things that are not material to their lives.

[David Sampson]

Because you add up little things, they become material. That's like saying why do something nice for someone that's not big gesture. Because a lot of small gestures add up and become noticeable to the person who's doing it. I mean I don't know this because I don't do those gestures. But I'm just saying you're way off.

[John Skipper]

Into interesting philosophical territory. You have to balance it against the use of your ever dwindling time. And Michael Jordan is not a baby. And to me it would have to be a material amount of money for him to spend any time doing it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, baby Jordan. Harold Minor. A different contract negotiation.

[David Sampson]

He doesn't know who that is. What a great car.

[Pablo Torre]

We don't remember.

[David Sampson]

Maybe number 45 for the Miami Heat. Harold Miner. I don't know if you wore 45 but it just feels like he works 45 though. Maybe that was Jordan's number when he came out of retirement.

[John Skipper]

My name was Minor. I would take 24.

[Pablo Torre]

Is my jersey number so perfectly in the way that David Sampson flip flopped. Never quarters and cord Nevers. Harold Miner is number four. 32.

[David Sampson]

32. Wow, that's funny. Oh, not an accident.

[John Skipper]

No, I withdraw.

[David Sampson]

Thank you. Best thing you can do.

[John Skipper]

Was a longtime strategy of mine.

[Pablo Torre]

Incredible restraint. The whole idea of we want to get our dream hire in here. And that would be Michael Jordan. I'm just curious, John, was there a white whale for you in terms of as the president of espn, the guy who made billion dollar decisions. Is there someone that you wanted to hire as a special contributor that you couldn't get? And he's already laughing.

[John Skipper]

Well, I have to say at ESPN we weren't big in. Our problem was not. We didn't want special contributors. We weren't looking for headlines. We were looking for people to work. And it was frequently why I could not get some of the best talent into ESPN. Right. Mr. Barkley was the best in the business at NBA. And we wanted to get Charles Barkley, but he would have had. By the way, he just complained the other day. This is in the news the other day. Charles Barkley said, don't think you're going to get me in that ESPN car wash. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing SportsCenter. Nobody's going to tell me what to do.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, I get the quote as you.

[David Sampson]

I'm trying to work less versus more, I believe you said.

[John Skipper]

And yes, we had lots of people we wanted to get that we couldn't get. First of all, at the time, we were kind of cheap, right? We paid lower scale because we had a lot of people and we did. I tried very hard to get Shaq when he was available, tried to convince him that he'd be his show on espn. It wouldn't be. He wouldn't be the second fiddle to Charles Barkley. And David Levy, good friend of mine, went to him and said, you know, I'm going to pay you as much, probably more than John Skipper will, and you won't have to do anything except show up, start talking, and. And that's all you have to do. And by the way, Shaq, who was very funny about it, basically told me, I ran into him one time. He's like, I wasn't going to come over there. You were going to put me up. And he was right. We get. We gave him an offer. It included SportsCenter appearances. It included whatever the early morning show at the time was appearances. It included, you know, post game, pregame. You got to show up, you got to rehearse. And he said, why would I do that? And by the way, he was right. I've not been able to get those kind of offers. I did not say I was immune to very material offers that did not require a lot of heavy lifting.

[Pablo Torre]

To quote Charles Barkley on the record, quote, they're not going to work me like a dog and not pay me. They'll have me on ESPN 1, 2, 3, ESPN News, ESPN U, ESPN Radio, and then come up with that puny little check. They're going to have me on ESPN. DeBortes saying, Muy bien, gracias.

[David Sampson]

He really said that?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[David Sampson]

I would like to point out to Charles, because Sir Charles may not understand the concept of licensing. His contract will remain With Warner Brothers discovery. A little nugget here for you, Pablo. He's not going to espn. He's not an employee of espn. He has nothing to do with espn. ESPN is licensing inside the NBA. Yeah, licensing.

[John Skipper]

I think that that was an earlier. That was.

[Pablo Torre]

That was an earlier quote by Barkley, by the way.

[David Sampson]

Yeah. Oh, I think this was just this week.

[Pablo Torre]

No, this. He's been saying this stuff. This was.

[John Skipper]

Say it again.

[Pablo Torre]

This was 2016. That he said that quote. But he's been saying a version of this week. Yes, this week.

[John Skipper]

This week.

[David Sampson]

I'm not going to be reading this week's quote. Why would you read a quote from 2016?

[Pablo Torre]

Because he's been saying it for over a decade.

[David Sampson]

There wasn't a license deal. That's when he had not signed his big deal with Turner yet.

[Pablo Torre]

That was the Shaq story.

[John Skipper]

Okay, so he was also trying to host the show.

[David Sampson]

I'm not trying to host the show. I'm trying to understand what the hell you're talking about.

[John Skipper]

So Barkley did say it this week, and he said it in the context of complaining that it had not been made clear to him what the relationship between inside the NBA and espn.

[David Sampson]

So he's basically saying it had been made clear to him, by the way.

[John Skipper]

That I'm not privy to, but I would not disagree. And what he was saying was, I'm unhappy. That made it clear to me. And by the way, they haven't made it unclear what my obligations are to espn. And I'm not going to do what they always do, which is do the car wash, go along, all the shows, which is what people used to do.

[David Sampson]

Can I help, Sir Charles? His obligation is exactly as that is outlined in his Turner contract. Those are the obligations. It is not that his contract has been assigned to espn. It is not. I think he kind of.

[Pablo Torre]

Charles Barkley once said, I got misquoted. My own autobiography. I don't think he's necessarily reading the fine print on anything.

[John Skipper]

Well, whether he is or not, he also has a great reputation as a character nonconformist, non authoritarian. So he's just being true to his brand there. That he's not controllable. That's good for him. Even if he knows exactly what he has to do, it's good for his soul to say, nobody tells me what to do.

[Pablo Torre]

Charles Barkley, beyond sounding like people that we may know or like and love in our own lives, he does play a game, Charles does, called who We Play for, in which he doesn't know the answer to Any of those questions. And it seems like maybe David is saying that applies to his own.

[John Skipper]

What?

[Pablo Torre]

Who he play for. They show him a picture of, or rather a name or a jerseyless player and they say, who does he play for? And does not know.

[John Skipper]

I worked one time for a couple years at Us magazine and we had a game played alive or dead, which is you chose somebody's picture and it is shockingly hard.

[David Sampson]

Oh, yeah, I had Lorraine Brocco on that list until I watched the most recent Nona movie with Vince Vaughn on Netflix and I said, oh my God, I got that wrong.

[Pablo Torre]

I just had to double check. Connie Selica.

[David Sampson]

Is she. Don't say it.

[Pablo Torre]

Alive. And more than that, to quote the characters we've been talking about, I just want to apologize to Connie Celica. I was not familiar with your game.

[John Skipper]

What?

[David Sampson]

How do I surround.

[Pablo Torre]

Withdrawn, as they say.

[John Skipper]

Remind me who Connie Seleca was.

[David Sampson]

The essence of beauty.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[John Skipper]

Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's probably to stop podcasting.

[John Skipper]

Wow. And how was that manifested? Is she an actress?

[David Sampson]

Is she? I listed the things she was on. Pablo, you have a ding in your table and a mark when the show's done.

[Pablo Torre]

If you've been listening and not watching on YouTube, you've made a mistake for lots of reasons. But David has identified what I now identify as a pock mark on the table.

[David Sampson]

And a scratch.

[Pablo Torre]

And a scratch.

[David Sampson]

It's got to be repainted.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that you, John?

[David Sampson]

It's incredibly distracting.

[John Skipper]

I don't think so.

[David Sampson]

It looks like a scratch. Someone. Someone. It's not a. A. Someone scratched it. One of your guests, I assume, on your award winning show.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

This is inexcusable right here. This is mark though.

[Pablo Torre]

Y.

[David Sampson]

Anyway, we'll talk about after the show.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like we just did it. Okay, John, thank you, David.

[David Sampson]

Happy to be here.

[Pablo Torre]

Love podcasting. Goodbye. Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller, Howard Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tominiello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always by John Bravo. We will talk to you next time.