Mackenzie (3:40)

Before you do that.

Hannah (3:41)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (3:42)

Can I please preface this by saying, you guys, if you. We're three years into this podcast and if you've listened to any other episode, you know that we want to show support for everybody. We. We think that everybody deserves a plat. Everybody deserves a safe place. We are advocates for anyone, no matter what you've experienced. We want to allow our guests to tell their story ethically, and that means, for us, sharing every part of their story as they recall it. And that includes some things that some of us don't like or are uncomfortable with. And that's why we have trigger warnings and things like that. And so I just want to remind you that when people need a platform, sometimes that includes everything, even they're not so good action. So just keep that in mind. That's our way of letting them share their story.

Hannah (4:28)

And to that point, we are always going to approach our guests with empathy and understanding. Our first thing to like, we think to do is to put ourselves in their shoes. And we do that because we want people to feel like they can share the good, the bad, and the ugly. Mackenzie and I are often hearing these stories for the first time for the most Part. And our response is, like, with them. You know, we're on the ride with them. And like we said in our conversation last week that we don't condone some of the action she took. The Grindr thing. We know that was wrong. She knows that was wrong. We've had conversations with her this week and beforehand, and it was clear that that was, you know, she was in a crazy period of her life. And we're gonna get into why that happened.

Mackenzie (5:15)

That's a nice way of saying if until y' all ain't got no sin, y' all ain't casting no st. So I. Hannah, will you please. This is something Hannah researched, but we wanted to talk about how.

Hannah (5:25)

I did a. Yeah, and Molly, too. We did a. We wanted to break down some of the psychology behind what happened to Lena, why she did what she did, and some of the psychology behind the way we interpreted her story and reacted to her story. I was like, I want to understand what was going on in my queer brain. Like, why was I so. Oh, okay, cool. Like, this is something she did, and it got her money back. Okay. So the first thing, we think this is important to talk about, because if you hear the story and initially decide that Lena's a bad person and just write it off, you're taking a lot of nuance out of the situation, and that can make other people remain silent. So we're going to try to contextualize without glorifying just so that we can understand why Lena did what she did. And hopefully it keeps this place a safe space for other people to come forward, even if there are morally gray parts of their story. So the first thing that I found with the science behind trauma and what it does to our brains is how it affects our ability to make ethical decisions. Our decision making changes. It fully adjusts. It forgets all the values you've had up until this point, and it prioritizes totally different things. So there have been a lot of studies done. When someone goes through a traumatizing experience, the stress affects their ability to make decisions, and your brain truly just shifts into survival mode. Your amygdala, which is where you process threats, and your emotional responses, becomes very active, more active than normal. And the prefrontal cortex, which is your reasoning and your impulse control and your ethical judgment, it becomes less active. And that's just science, ladies. And under a lot of stress, people become a lot more impulsive. I think we can all relate to that. There's reduced flexibility in your cognition, and they make decisions that ignore the consequences Especially long term ones. And it's a survival thing. Like when you are trying to survive, you're not prioritizing your morality, you are prioritizing survival over your morality. And that is something that our brains have adapted to do to help us keep going. So when she talked about that week when she got home and realized she had been scammed, all of her anger towards Lily, who I will say she's very good friends with Lily. And I understand that in the moment she was very angry and used the C word. And that was uncomfortable for some people. That was her sense of humor. And also she was angry in that moment. She was being honest about the way she felt. She and Lily are great and on good terms. And I think I'm glad she took us into the headspace where she was. She was like not in her right mind. She was drinking when she hadn't drunken for a long time. Drunken, I don't know. Drank, drank for a long time. And obviously her brain was in this survival mode that just took away the usual processing that she had. So I do have empathy for that. It is very, very common for people to be traumatized and then to go on and do something that doesn't align with their morals. That's actually very, very common. And if we're not understanding that, then that's where we get into the problem with the perfect victim mentality, where if somebody makes one mistake, all of a sudden it throws away all of the abuse they've experienced. And that's not something I think we can do that's not helpful.

Mackenzie (8:44)

And also, whenever we talk about like, oh, so what she did was she used these people on this dating app to get back at this guy. Right. If that is something that has ever happened to someone, we want to share those stories and conversation around it to raise awareness. And so if that's something that's ever happened to you, we would love to be a platform for you and we would love for you to share your story, raise awareness about it and talk about all the ways that you can try to avoid that. Different safety tips, whatever we need to do. But we're not going to tell a guest. Come share your story, but leave out the part where you did the mess up. Like, do leave out the part where you made a mistake. That's not going to happen. We wouldn't do it to you. We're not going to do it to any of our guests. And we absolutely have a. I have an expectation personally that our audience will respond with more kindness and understanding. And if you if you're not kind and understanding, then shut up.

Hannah (9:40)

And I like that you said that, because I do want to acknowledge that in the moment, our reactions didn't reflect that we feel that way. Like, I understand that we were excited that she got her money back. And I want to talk about why that is, because that's what I was like. I hear you guys. It did sound like I was like, woohoo. Like, go scan the grinder, boys. And I was not intending to scan that.

Mackenzie (10:03)

We were excited that she got revenge. We weren't excited in the way that it happened, but she was the first one who ever actually took action and got revenge.

Hannah (10:10)

So there's a lot that happens to people's brains when there's not a path to justice. And what you just mentioned is that she got in her way justice. She got the money back. And we are not used to that. I think this is something that explains not only Lena's behavior, but also our reactions to her behavior. Because something changes when you start to lose faith in the legal system. We've been taught that the legal system will protect us and that we can turn to it. And when we realize that that's not actually the case, which I think you often know from your experience as a PI we both know as women. I know as a host of the show, after 137 episodes, like, how often are we left with a guest who has no path to justice? The legal system basically shrugs at them and says, oh, sorry, I'm sorry, we can't do anything about that. And we are left so often with no hope and despair, kind of. And this is not justifying anything. Like, I'm not saying that this is an excuse, but I did want to understand, like, we live with these stories all the time. We are friends with these guests. We're developing relationships with them. We are working behind the scenes sometimes to help them legally, financially, whatever it is we can do. We're reading books about this stuff. We're doing the book club about this stuff. Like, we're constantly thinking about these stories, and I think that's affected my brain. Like, I was so excited to hear that she got her money back. It was like, I don't know, a whiplash feeling of, like, vindication. And yes, I knew that this was not a good thing that she was doing, but I also was just prioritizing survival, prioritizing justice. I heard that this was an international scam. I was like, there's nothing she can do. There's no way she's getting any money. Back. So to hear that she did was crazy. But these men on Grindr who did not ask to be part of this innocent bystander. Bystanders. Of course, I am sad for them and sorry for them and worried about them and thrilled that they are okay. And that doesn't make it okay that. I don't know. I just. I hear. I hear what people are saying. I want people to know that I get it. And this was important for me to understand the nuance of our own reactions as well as hers.

Mackenzie (12:21)

And regardless if it was a gay man, a straight woman, it doesn't matter who these are humans that were.

Hannah (12:26)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (12:26)

By this. Right. Innocent humans. And to that point, a hundred percent, it was wrong. Also, just to be clear, if anybody has any questions about if there was. Oh, like, we. We responded a different way because of homophobia or whatever. Our producer, Molly, she's a lesbian woman. She's getting married to a woman actually, this year. They're getting married. Hannah has mentioned on the show. I think you even said on the.

Hannah (12:50)

Show, I'm a little gay, guys. I'm bi.

Mackenzie (12:53)

Okay. My mom is a lesbian for my whole life, and she's married to my stepmom for 20 years. My husband's mom is gay. She's been with her wife for 25 years. So there's no homophobe. Like, we're all. We all gay, y'. All.

Hannah (13:06)

And in fact, I think it was interesting. I mean, Molly and I have talked about this a little bit as. As two little gay girls. Like, why was it not on our radar as much to. To clock that? For me, I was like, is it because I've lived in West Hollywood, which, if you don't know, is, like, one of the gayest parts of Los Angeles? And, like, my privilege was shown a little bit where it's like, of course I know homophobia is bad, but, like, I'm in a bubble. I'm very fortunate. And like, our. Your family is fortunate. Like, homophobia has not been something that we actually had to deal with as much, which is so lucky. And, like, I don't know, maybe there's a part of me that just prioritized this woman's justice and survival and was so excited about that that I. Yeah, I wasn't thinking that way.

Mackenzie (13:53)

And also, like you mentioned during the episode, if this is something you're considering doing or if this is something you have the thought to do, please don't. And. Because the heck.

Hannah (14:04)

Who would. I mean, nobody. I hope nobody is listening to our show, getting ideas, because that's ridiculous. And also, I was like, oh, my God, these scammers are so homophobic. That's what made it work. That's what's crazy to me. Like, she.

Mackenzie (14:17)

She used the one thing against them that she knew would. That would be the worst.

Hannah (14:20)

I mean, and that's awful that they would be susceptible to that. You know what I mean? So I. I think that's why we did the disclaimer. That's why we do our debrief after the fact, so we have time to process those things. And the disclaimer wasn't enough. And we'll have this conversation now, and we want to continue the conversation. Like, we are so open to you guys respectfully continuing this conversation and are grateful that you guys care so much about the queer community. Are you kidding? I mean, I want a group of people that are passionate. I want our listeners to be as passionate as we are. We are not perfect. We make mistakes. You guys make mistakes. We can be there for each other and understand that growth is possible. That's the whole. That's the whole thing here.

Mackenzie (14:58)

That's what we want for you. That's what we want. That's what we want for all of our guests. And also, until y' all are perfect, stop throwing stones, period. That's all I got to say about that.

Hannah (15:08)

I reckon I actually have a little more to say about that, actually.

Mackenzie (15:12)

Good.

Hannah (15:12)

And this is where Mama Hannah comes out a little bit. I do want to talk about how the scammers are still the most responsible and that I do think there's a bit of a disproportionate response in terms of who's getting more hate, Lena or the scammers. I want to be so clear here. Lena is responsible for her actions. She knows that naming this context doesn't excuse that, and it doesn't mean that those risks don't matter. But at the same time, yeah, we're not evenly distributing responsibility. And the scammers are the ones who engineered this entire situation. They used deception, time pressure, they manipulated her emotionally, and they isolated her, and they pushed her into panic and shame and desperation. Fog, fear, obligation, and guilt came up as well. And then they removed any real path to justice. They made it seemingly impossible for her to get not only her money back, but also she was sexually manipulated. Like the feeling that she must have had, realizing not only that she was duped by them, but also that they. They kind of made her feel like she was complicit as well. She signed over this agreement. She said she would do these things, even though all of these manipulative tactics were used to get her to that. Yes. Which is coercion. So psychology tell us that when people are pushed to that brink, judgment fractures and behavior spirals. She spiraled in a way that it didn't reflect who she normally is. And that doesn't make her reaction okay, but it does mean the moral weight starts with the people who created the condition. And these scammers, they didn't just steal money. They destabilized her. And they did that probably to all the women in the Facebook group that she found. And the people that are not in the Facebook group, like, she. They're doing this over and over and over and over again. And when you knowingly destabilize someone for a scam, you don't get to claim innocence over what happens next. So we can hold both truths, like, Lena is accountable, and the scammers remain the primary perpetrators. And I just was sad to see a lot. And I know there's, like, an element of control where we can. We have Lena. We know Lena. We can talk to Lena. We can share with Lena. We're holding her to a higher standard than we're holding these asshole scammers. I just want to remind everyone that they are my main problem here. We can all grow. We all make mistakes. She made a big mistake. She knows that. And we've talked to her this week, guys. She's wonderful. We have an ongoing relationship with her. We empathize with her, and we stand with sharing her story because, I mean, she's. A lot of you were like, she's my new best friend. Like, she's the. She's. Her sense of humor is very clear, and it's not for everybody. And neither is mine, and neither is Mackenzie's. And that's just life. And that is fine. Like, you don't have to love every single thing about every single story, But, I mean, I get where she was coming from.

Mackenzie (18:17)

I do not apologize for sharing. For giving her a platform to share her story, all of it, period. Don't apologize.

Hannah (18:22)

We love her. We really love her.

Mackenzie (18:24)

I just gonna. I'm just gonna leave this here also. So I don't know if y' all have ever seen my clapback videos on a social media machine, but the last couple people who talked a bunch of smack about me that I looked up, turns out their skeletons were a lot worse than mine, so. So, again, if you got something to say, go ahead and say it, because I will. I will find the skeleton. So consider the source. So if you got something to say, just remember your skeletons are no better than anybody else's.

Hannah (18:48)

And to those of you who engaged in respectful debate and were very kind in the way that you appreciate your friendly, we actually do really appreciate that. So thank you.

Mackenzie (18:56)

That's a good point, too. That's a good point, too, that I forgot to say. Yes, that's a very good point. If you disagree, there's a respectful, tactful, responsible way to disagree and be like, oh, man, like, she. That was really bad. Whatever. We. Your opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's. But the hateful. The hatefulness, anger, that's not gonna work out.

Hannah (19:15)

Not gonna work out. Like people in the comments calling Lena vile and telling her she should die and saying these scammers should have stolen more money from her and that she deserves it. Like, those are the comments we're talking about here. If you are respectful, we love you. If you are, that this is not the show for you. And while we apologize for the way we responded, we also so strongly stand with Lena and a victim who became a perpetrator, because that happens as we've been talking about, and we do not stand for that kind of talk. I know we say it all the time, but we really do not know what we would do until we're in a situation. And I think it's important to reflect on the fact that, like, we're all flawed and it helps us. I mean, maybe having this whole conversation when, God forbid, knock on wood, if somebody listening has an experience like this, maybe they think through their actions differently because of what she shared, and that's valuable.

Mackenzie (20:15)

We'll wrap this up.

Hannah (20:16)

Yeah, we'll wrap this up, but it's an ongoing conversation because not only because there's so much to talk about, but because we actually have an update from Lena this morning. We've talked to her a lot this week, and I know you guys, I totally. Oh, she didn't want to tell Lily's story. Let me just say, like, the reason we cut out some of this stuff about her relationship with Lily, who was the woman that created the Facebook group, is because it wasn't her story. So, yes, in the moment, she was very upset. She used the. Called her the C word. But she and Lily talked this morning because there is an update to their legal pursuing of these Turkish scammers. If you recall, they have a lawyer on the case. They didn't think there was much that they could do.

Mackenzie (20:56)

They.

Hannah (20:57)

But we're not going to share too much because there's not. There's not a ton verified to share, but maybe there's a world in which future victims of these Turkish rug scammers might be able to share their story and hopefully with a legal path to justice, which I would freak out about again, because I don't expect that. I really don't expect that. But I. I would love to be wrong. So that's kind of exciting. And if you have any more support or ideas, anybody that wants to share their support or feelings around this story, respectfully, let us know. And let us know if you would be interested in an update if we get one, because I sure would.

Mackenzie (21:38)

How you feel? I feel okay. And just to be clear, there was a lot of support for Lena. And sometimes it's easier to focus on the, like, the negative comments and people are like, oh, that's great, that's fine, and they move on. But when there's something bad or negative or someone feels especially passionate about something, that that's when the comments come out. So a lot of times we'll see the negativity without realizing that it's counteracted tenfold by the positivity. So again, I started this by saying, and I'm going to end this by saying thank you so much to everyone who does support our show, number one, and supports Lena and supports Lena, who supports our show, who supports our guests, who supports Lena. Even though. And there were a ton of people who said, like, oh man, I don't think what she did was right, but I, you know, I, I support her and there's a way to show support but also not agree with what they did. So anyways, than you to the. For the outpouring of support. We really appreciate you. And I, I think if you don't have nothing nice to say, shut your damn mouth. Period.

Hannah (22:35)

Every time we do an episode that generates conversation, I assure you that we are talking about it with each other, with our communities, with our friends, our families, and with our therapists and our journals. Like, I really take this show and this platform seriously and I don't want to be complacent about the impact it can have.

Mackenzie (22:52)

Please know that this is something that we are taking seriously and that we are very passionate about. And we, we care and we're not always right.

Hannah (23:00)

We will always, well, try to do the best. Yeah, you're always right. I'm not always right, but I will always try to be better. And I know mackenzie does too. And we will always, always, always try to do the best for you guys. And based on our ethics and values and the love that we have for our guests and our listeners and.

Mackenzie (23:18)

And we're not afraid to learn and grow with you and from you. So thank you.

Hannah (23:22)

What do I say? Every day's a school day.

Mackenzie (23:24)

It really is.

Hannah (23:25)

Every day's a school day.

Mackenzie (23:27)

And so. But funny enough, I would like to transition to the MacKenzie undercover because. Oh, my gosh. Okay, Are you guys ready? Hannah, are you ready for this mackenzie Undercover?

Hannah (23:37)

I'm never ready, but I'm so ready. Someone just said on the video of our last mackenzie Undercover we posted on Instagram, and they were like, Hannah jumped out of her chair. Like Jason was running into the room. Like, I was freaking out last time. So let's see what happens. This podcast is sponsored by Daily Look. It's a premium personal styling service for women. And basically, you get a dedicated personal stylist to curate a box of clothes based on your body shape, your preferences, your lifestyle. I'm gonna be honest. I was hesitant because I was like, I'm so particular with clothes and how they fit in my style. Dude, my box. I liked everything in it.

Mackenzie (24:17)

I did, too. Can we talk about it? Oh, I loved everything. I'm very casual on my style, and I feel like they really heard me. They sent me a really cute summer dress, but it wasn't super dressy. It very casual. Everything was just my style. They sent me leggings with a matching T shirt, a little crop top. Like, fun stuff that I would absolutely wear. I was so impressed.

Hannah (24:36)

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Mackenzie (28:20)

So, you guys, this Mackenzie undercover is actually me and the com. The PI Company that I was doing surveillance for getting dogfish by. By one of our own private investigators.

Hannah (28:33)

Oh, my. It's inside that dogfish from inside the house. An inside dogfish job.

Mackenzie (28:38)

It's the dog fish from inside.

Hannah (28:41)

Wait, how does that even happen? Let's go. I need to hear.

Mackenzie (28:43)

Okay. So typically, what happens is I'll get a case from a company which, if you have your own agency, then you have your own clients, and they'll come in. But you could also do subcontract work for other agencies, which means they call you and say, hey, I have this case. Do you have availability? Can you work it? It's very informal. Very. The more investigators, you know, the more connections you have, and they'll ask you to whatever. So I was asked by the company that I was actually employed by, I was asked by that company if I would investigate another investigator. And I'm like, right, okay. So when you go do a surveillance and you do days and days and days of surveillance, the chances of you not ever seeing this person and just them never doing nothing, that's kind of low. Usually if you do multiple days of surveillance, you're going to see them do something or see some kind of activity. Or if you don't, then it's where.

Hannah (29:33)

There'S smoke, there's fire kind of thing.

Mackenzie (29:34)

Right. And so if you don't see that there's any activity, either they're out of town, maybe they're on vacation. Like, maybe they moved and you don't realize it, or nobody's occupying the home, whatever. But usually after the first day, you kind of. Everybody thinks private investigation could be, like, all surveillance. But you got to use your noggin, too. Like, you got to find out information. So you might be required to maybe do a little get out of your car and go on foot and get some information from the neighbors or from whoever and try to find out information about this person, why you haven't seen them. And usually you'll find someone who talks like, oh, they moved out a month ago. Now, you know, the Person no longer lives there. We're not going to waste time doing surveillance there for any period of time because now we know they don't live there. So basically this company says they had suspicion. This guy wasn't being honest about the times he was doing surveillance for the hours that he was submitting. Just because there was no video, he was obtaining no information, he couldn't answer why the person wasn't coming out. And there's all like, the more surveillance you do, the, the greater the chances of getting.

Hannah (30:32)

They're like, either this guy is not working, or he's so bad at this.

Mackenzie (30:35)

Job, or he's really, really bad at this job. So they weren't getting any video and they're like, this guy has done this before. Like, he's not very great at turning over a lot of video and it's just weird. And we want to know, is he really bad at this or what? Is he like, what's going on? Right? So he's clocking all these hours, getting no results. So what they did was they had me work a case that he had, quote, unquote, worked before. And what that means is they had him do the surveillance, he got nothing. And they said, hey, we want you to go do the surveillance now. Right? So now they're out of pocket because they only charge the client once. They're not going to tell the client that they think this guy's lying because then the client's never going to hire this company again. So they gave me the case that they originally gave him and he just basically said, I never saw him, never got any video, whatever.

Hannah (31:21)

Can you tell us what the case is or no?

Mackenzie (31:24)

It was a run of the mill insurance fraud case. Okay. This person says, neck back, and then you have to follow them and just see what they're doing. I get all kinds of video on this lady, right? I follow her, she goes to the Walmart, she goes to public, she goes grocery shopping. Like she goes to do all these different things. And this is a lady who says she can never leave her house. So this is the kind of stuff that's going to help the client. And so I get all this documentation, I get the results that are pretty standard. So the client was happy. Nothing crazy, just a regular run of the mill insurance fraud case, period. Well, then what they did was they gave the same case back to the other investigator and they said, hey, go back out on this case, try again. They didn't tell him that I had worked it. They said, try it again. Just see if you can get any video, like, see what happens.

Hannah (32:11)

And when they send him back out, are they just saying, go back out, and you use your own deduction to decide when to track her? Or are they able to be like, we think she's going to publix on this. Like, now they have more information about her. So are they waiting to see if he can figure it out? Or it's like, are they setting him up for success? And he's still going to be like, I didn't find anything.

Mackenzie (32:29)

When you get a case, it is best to not have any information. I don't want to.

Hannah (32:34)

They don't tell him because I don't.

Mackenzie (32:35)

Want to know what to expect. I don't want to have a bias. I don't want to get excited for a certain time that never comes. Like, I just want.

Hannah (32:40)

I guess I. Yeah, I just didn't know if they were, like, trapping him in a way, being like, we know she's going to be here. So if he says he doesn't see her, he's lying.

Mackenzie (32:48)

They just say, hey, go work this case again and see what you can get this time. Just try it again. Right. So they gave the same case back to him. See if you can catch this person. And meanwhile, they want me to do surveillance on him while he's doing this pretend surveillance. Okay.

Hannah (33:04)

So he doesn't know that they know that you.

Mackenzie (33:09)

That I know that they know that he. Yeah, he don't. He don't know. So I follow him from his house to this case. He said that he was going to work it on this particular day. And just like a typical surveillance, this guy parks on the side of the road, and just like you would, like, you know, tires to the curb, just like all the other cars parks on the side of the road. And he posts up for surveillance. It's typical. It's standard. It's a place I would have probably parked. I mean, you know, whatever. So where do you park? I find a driveway to sit in. So just like on my previous surveillance of her, I see her come out of the house. She gets into her car, she leaves, she pulls out the garage, whatever. But the other investigator, he didn't leave behind her. And so I'm like, stop. Why? Like, go get her. And what is he doing?

Hannah (33:55)

Playing Candy Crush, like, right?

Mackenzie (33:57)

So I'm biting my nails like, oh, my God, go follow her. But they were not paying us to do any additional surveillance. So the surveillance one on her is done. No matter what she does. We would not videotape it, because unless we call the client and say, hey, we happen to be in the area and we see your client that we know is your client because we already did surveillance on her. We see her moving around. Do you want to pay us? And then we've been hired by them again and then we can.

Hannah (34:18)

Why was he. Was he. He wasn't planning to video if he saw her?

Mackenzie (34:22)

He was, but he didn't know that it was just pretend.

Hannah (34:24)

Yes. Yes.

Mackenzie (34:25)

Okay, so he's gonna just do the job as normal. But we weren't gonna tell the client, like we weren't gonna submit that to the client because they didn't pay us to do the, say, the case.

Hannah (34:32)

Well, apparently he's not going to just do that, right? That is remains to be seen.

Mackenzie (34:36)

So she leaves and he does not leave behind her. He doesn't follow her. And typically we follow these people. We drive behind them in traffic, we see where they're going. They go to Walmart, we go to Walmart. They go inside, we go inside. We get covert video of them inside. They don't know that we're there, either on foot or in the car. Mobile surveillance, in person surveillance, whatever. So the goal, like I said, it wasn't to do surveillance on her that day, it was just to pretend. So it wasn't our objective. So I let her go. But I did document her activity. So whenever she was in view, I videotaped what she was doing. I could videotape her pulling out of the driveway and leaving. And then in the same clip, I panned over to his car so you could see that his car does not follow her.

Hannah (35:18)

You're like, he is asleep, right?

Mackenzie (35:22)

So he is the guy that. He is my target. Like he is my subject for this case.

Hannah (35:28)

I do have a question. And be honest. Have you ever accidentally fallen asleep?

Mackenzie (35:33)

100%. And anybody who tells you they have it is full of baloney. Okay, let me tell you. The best sleep you will ever get is at 5:30am on surveillance. It's dark and it's not too cold, it's not too hot, the car is off. The sun is not out yet scorching you, and it's nice and chill and you just fall asleep and the person leaves and you wake up four hours later and they're gone. It has happened.

Hannah (35:54)

I believe it. And I wouldn't blame you. I mean, I don't know how you guys stay so alert the whole time. It's impressive.

Mackenzie (35:59)

We do five hour energies and Red Bulls or whatever. But listen, sometimes you just fall asleep. I. I can't I've never told a client.

Hannah (36:06)

Of course. Of course. And I won't either. But I think it's fair to say that if anybody says they haven't missed a false subject, then it's.

Mackenzie (36:14)

Or you're just looking, or you're in the middle. I've. I've been peeing in a cup in my car, and someone has left, and I just haven't been able to get things wrapped up in time to put it in go mode and hit the gap. I just haven't. And in that case, I always do the right thing. Like, I'll go out on my own time and make it right and make sure that when I'm billing them, it's for actual surveillance. Like, I'll take a hit on the hours, whatever.

Hannah (36:34)

You're not billing them for the nap time.

Mackenzie (36:36)

Yeah, exactly. I. I think that's the right thing to do.

Hannah (36:39)

Okay, so there's a world in which this guy. Innocent mistake. Misses it, unfortunately.

Mackenzie (36:45)

100%. Yep. It happens. Absolutely. All the time. It's. It's more common than we want to admit, but it's. It's happened dozens of times in my 20 years. It is not just once. It happens. I've lost people. I have followed them for 400 miles and then lost them. I have crossed over the Georgia line and then lost them. Like, it's just part of what happens.

Hannah (37:06)

The world is exhausting.

Mackenzie (37:08)

It's disappointing, but it's still part of the job. Okay, so I document that he does not leave behind her. And I'm like, okay, so they were right in that, like, their. Their gut instinct, their femtuition was right. She knew that he wouldn't. He wasn't doing what he was supposed to. So I decide I'm gonna pull out of the driveway that I'm sitting on, and I'm gonna drive by just to see if I can see what's going on, see any activity.

Hannah (37:33)

He doesn't know you. Like, you guys don't know each other at all.

Mackenzie (37:35)

We do not know each other. We've never worked together. We. We usually know each other's by name, but we don't know what each other drives. We don't know each other's faces. So I drive by, and in Florida, our windows are very dark, So I have, like, double limo tent. Like, I keep the state statute in my glove box because I get pulled over. And they're like, you can't do this. And I'm like, I have to show them the law. It's fine, whatever. But our windows Are dark. So you typically. When you see dark windows like that, usually that's a PI. So I didn't expect to see anything, but whatever. So I drive by. I can't see anything. I couldn't see anything through the windshield. I could tell that someone was in the car because I was looking really hard. But whatever. I wasn't able to see what he was doing. Didn't see much movement. So I decide that I'm going to pull around the block, out of view. So my car's out of view, and I decide that I'm going to. On foot. I'm just going to walk by the car. So I was just going to say.

Hannah (38:23)

Okay, so tell me if this is. Is. I mean, you don't have to say what you. If you. I don't want to spoil anything, but I'm like, putting myself in your shoes. I'm like, he doesn't know you. Could you do what people do to you and just be like, hey, I live here. What are you doing outside my house? Like, I've learned a little bit. Okay, what? Tell me what you do.

Mackenzie (38:42)

The more you act like you belong there, the more people think you belong there. It's when you get all nervous that people are nervous of you. Right? So. So anyways, I decide I'm gonna go on foot. I'm wearing leggings and a T shirt, so I'm walking, pretending to just get my exercise, whatever. So I walk by his car, and I decide I'm gonna do what people do to me. And that is knock on the window.

Hannah (39:05)

Excuse me. How dare you stay outside my house all day.

Mackenzie (39:09)

Yeah, like, this is weird. What are you doing now? I'm a little nervous because as a private investigator, you would think that other private investigators look out for stuff like that. I do, because I think everyone's scamming me. So I. I would think that this guy would, like, no. And he'd be like, get out of here. I know what you're doing, honey.

Hannah (39:29)

Oh, God.

Mackenzie (39:31)

And again, I want to.

Hannah (39:32)

I want to hear the whole combo.

Mackenzie (39:34)

This is where character. This is where investigators are different than cops. We can do the pretext, you know, which means in not so many words, we can lie or fib to present ourselves as something else in order to get information. And I'm good at social engineering. I know how to present myself in a way that I can get information. I'm just good at it. Okay, so this guy rolls down his window, and first of all, this big puff of smoke comes out, and I'm like, Immediately high.

Hannah (40:04)

Like, I'm high. I'm high.

Mackenzie (40:05)

I am, like, contact high. I buzz. Like. I'm like, whoa, bro. That's wild. Okay, wait.

Hannah (40:13)

I don't know why I didn't think that way. I have a pure mind. Well, I didn't either. Because he's hot. Boxing his car.

Mackenzie (40:19)

Yeah. And so this smoke just comes out. Listen, I've smoked, like, one day, I was, like, 13, and I smoked weed one time, and that was it. And then I had a whole box of Apple Jacks. But I'm not someone who gets into the drugs and the drinking. Like, I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I don't do any of that stuff. So I immediately affected this guy's cloud of smoke.

Hannah (40:37)

I don't know the. What's the Florida marijuana situation there.

Mackenzie (40:40)

You get a ticket for a certain amount, but he opens his window, which is what I would do, about, like, two or three inches, just enough where you can talk to the person. And so you could tell that he, like, panicked because he jumped a little and then went. Immediately went to roll the window down. And so the smoke comes out this little small, like, two or three inches. And we do that because. Well, I do that because the one time I did make the mistake of rolling my window all the way down, and the guy that was trying to find out what I was doing reached his arm into the window, grabbed me by my throat, pushed me against the seat, absolutely strangling me with his hands.

Hannah (41:16)

Absolutely not.

Mackenzie (41:17)

And I was on the surveillance, so I had my seat all the way back, trying to get comfortable, waiting for the person to come out. So I. My feet were too far from the pedals. My feet were so far from the pedals, I couldn't push the button to start the car. And so I had to scooch down in the seat while this guy is strangling me so I could press the brake so I could hit the start button, put the car in drive mode and drive away without being able to see through. Over the. Through the windshield. Because he's strangling me. But that was the only way I could get away from his grip.

Hannah (41:45)

I am. That's awful. I'm so, like, yeah, sorry.

Mackenzie (41:48)

That was crazy.

Hannah (41:49)

He assaulted you. That's awful.

Mackenzie (41:51)

Yeah, it's happened more than once. And so that's why now I don't trust it. Like, I don't. I won't roll my window down. So the fact that he rolled his window down that much was like. I don't know if he just Thought no smoke would escape. Maybe he felt terrified. I don't know.

Hannah (42:03)

I don't think he was processing at full speed, Mackenzie.

Mackenzie (42:07)

That's what I'm saying is that, like, this guy was. He was, like, a little bit paranoid. He wasn't. Listen, all the clicks weren't clicking. Okay?

Hannah (42:14)

They were not clicking. No, no, no. The dots were not conn.

Mackenzie (42:17)

So the smoke comes out, and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I'm like. I'm like, okay. Okay. This. Yeah. Hi. And I'm like, have you seen my dog run by? I just. I was running with my dog. Did you see him run by? And, like, I'm just, like, twirling my hair and. Everybody cares so much about a missing animal. Let me just tell you, if you want to get someone's attention, tell them there's a missing animal.

Hannah (42:42)

Yeah, but that's what I feel like as a kid, people are, like, if someone asks you to help them find their dog.

Mackenzie (42:46)

Stranger. Because they are so, so quick to defend an animal. Like, we've had people comment on our different podcast episodes. I can't believe they hurt the dog regardless of what the victim would do.

Hannah (42:56)

I mean, isn't there, like, studies around this where it's like, we are more affected by watching animals get hurt in movies than humans? Like, we're so desensitized to that. So.

Mackenzie (43:05)

Yes. And it's wild, right? Because they're so innocent, they can't help themselves. Anyway, so this guy, he's looking at me, and he's worried about me. Me. He's looking at me like he's trying to be sympathetic, but he is high as a kite. He's got the red, bloodshot eyes. He needs some eye drops anyways.

Hannah (43:21)

He needs eye drops, and he needs to get away from that wheel. I don't want him behind the wheel.

Mackenzie (43:26)

Exactly. Right? Like, now I'm worried if this guy's gonna leave. I don't want him to. Like, this is dangerous at this point. Whatever. Once I start talking to him, he rolls his window down a little bit more. I guess he can see I'm not gonna, like, threaten his life or whatever. So he rolls his window down more. The smoke has escaped. And he's got, like, one of those. I think it was an Audi or an Infinity. Like one of those fancy, like, sedans, whatever. He's got this thing decked out inside. Like, he's got a TV screen on every surface. His center console is like a big, giant tv, like the Tesla kind. Like, you can tell this is aftermarket Stuff. This is legit, right?

Hannah (43:59)

Oh, wow.

Mackenzie (44:00)

And so I'm like, dang. Okay. And good for him because when you're on surveillance, you get bored. So I'm like, he's got things to do. That's. That's great. I look over in his passenger seat and he's got paraphernalia for days. I'm talking pipes, I'm talking baggies. Like, he didn't hide nothing.

Hannah (44:15)

Just right on the seat.

Mackenzie (44:16)

Oh, willy nilly. In front of God and everybody. He ain't got the wherewithal to hide nothing.

Hannah (44:20)

I'm imagining, like a bong with a seat belt strapped on it. He's like, I need to protect my baby. Just in casual.

Mackenzie (44:28)

It's glass and he's got other drugs in there. And it's sitting right next to his surveillance camera. He's got this little handy cam sitting right there on the seat next to it. And I'm like, how do you get.

Hannah (44:37)

Any footage if there's all the smoke? It's probably so foggy, right?

Mackenzie (44:41)

Like, this guy's just hot boxes. Like he had no intent at all to do any kind of following of anybody, it seems. And I'm talking to him and I'm like, have you seen my. I'm just kind of carrying on a conversation describing a dog that doesn't exist or whatever. And I actually, by the way, I use the description of my dog because the closer it is to the truth, the better of a lie it is. And then at some point, I pulled out my phone and I'm finding pictures of my dog just to show him. Be like, have you seen her? And at no point was he like. Like he wanted to help me. He didn't seem like he was suspicious or whatever. Like me. I'd be like, nope, sorry, and roll the window right back up. I don't want to get any further in this conversation. Well, he's got this big screen TV in this decked out car and he's got this picture in picture situation like this. I don't know how much money he spent on this, but it was a lot of dollars. Okay. Like, he's got it decked out. Pet my ride. What you watching, though? So he's got a girl on girl porn. I was thinking that.

Hannah (45:42)

I was like, there's no way he's watching porn.

Mackenzie (45:49)

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Mackenzie (48:19)

So he's got two cords attached to it. One is going to his phone and one is charging his camera. So he's got his camera plugged in and charging and the other chord's going to his phone. So the. The picture's clearly coming from, like, his phone, right? So he's watching porn on his phone. A girl on girl porn.

Hannah (48:36)

And it's projecting.

Mackenzie (48:38)

Yeah, it's like on this. Think. Think of, like, I think the new Ford Explorers have them. And the Tesla's having their giant TV screens, this big vertical TV screen. And on the bottom left corner of this giant TV screen, he's got a sports ball game going.

Hannah (48:55)

Okay, wait, wait.

Mackenzie (48:58)

So he's watching porn and sports ball. And so I say something about it.

Hannah (49:04)

And he didn't turn it off. He didn't make any move to, like, hide or turn off that.

Mackenzie (49:09)

I don't think he real. Like, he's so high. Like, I do not so high. I do not think he even realized what was happening. And it was on the brightest of bright settings, too.

Hannah (49:20)

This is so bad. But it's so funny.

Mackenzie (49:22)

It's so bad. So this guy's out here. He's a licensed. The state of Florida gave this fella a license to be a private investigator. And by the way, just to throw this randomly in there, a lot of private investigators are like, ex law enforcement, ex FBI, or they're, you know, whatever. This guy was a cop before. Like, he was in law enforcement. I don't know why he ever switched careers. And he's. He was young, like in his late 20s. Like, I don't know what happened. But he wasn't a cop no more because then he went, guess. I can guess. There was a drug. I'm sure. I'm certain. Like, my gut tuition. So anyways, so I say something about the video, and I'm like, man, this is a cool car. Like, you got. This is all decked out. I was like, man, that's a big screen. You're really getting into. Whatever you're watching. I'm sorry to interrupt, like, flirting and being silly and twirling my hair and be like, oh, girl on girl, huh? And so now I want to have a conversation with him because now I want him to tell me more about what he's doing and what's going on. Maybe give me some kind of insight. Right?

Hannah (50:25)

Dude, he's gonna invite you in the car. Watch out.

Mackenzie (50:27)

I know, right? So he's got this. And he's like, oh, man. Oh, that ain't nothing. So he pulls the cord out of his phone and the screen disappears. It goes back to regular FM radio, whatever. So he was a little embarrassed. He's like, oh, man. Yeah, now he's shy because I've shown Interest. And now he's flirting with me, doing this flirty little smile and laughing, right? So I'm looking at this guy, and in the passenger seat on the floorboard, you just see one of those little crates, like, those little square, like, milk crates. Snacks for days. I mean, I'm talking Cheetos, a 2 liter of Pepsi. Like, fellow was ready. He was. He was hungry.

Hannah (51:03)

So far, I can get behind that. All the other stuff. What the actual. Excuse my French. Like, how is he getting through this world? I don't know how people function who live like this, who are just so high and. And just don't care.

Mackenzie (51:20)

Yeah. But I was really impressed by the snacks. Like, he didn't have a care in the world. Right?

Hannah (51:26)

Of course you were. I love that.

Mackenzie (51:27)

Yeah. So I. Anyways, I asked him if he's seen my dog, and he says no, because, well, apparently he's not looking out for anything, much less.

Hannah (51:35)

No, he's just like. Like, he's like, it's third down, right?

Mackenzie (51:39)

Like, whatever. But I would like to say that most of the time, when I say, hey, have you seen my dog? Most people will be like, yeah, yeah, I did see that dog. I'm like, this dog doesn't exist. But it's fine. Like, most people want to help, and they'll be like, yeah. This guy was like. This guy was like, nah. Anyways, I was like, well, you're definitely having fun out here, just flirting. I said, what are you doing here? Anyways? I said, I've. I walked from back there. And you were just sitting here for a good little while.

Hannah (52:05)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (52:06)

And so he looks at me and he tries to put on this flirty little smile, and he's like, oh, I was waiting for you to walk into my life. And I'm like, did he just throw me a line?

Hannah (52:17)

Oh, my God, this guy.

Mackenzie (52:20)

And I was like, oh, stop it, you silly. You silly. I was like, do you live here? Would we, like, maybe be able to connect sometime? Like, where do you live? And I'm trying to see what story he's gonna. He's gonna come up with. And he's like, oh, no, I don't live here. My friend. My friend, he lives right there. And I'm waiting for him home. He's supposed to, you know, his flight was late, was delayed, whatever.

Hannah (52:40)

Okay, so he's got some story.

Mackenzie (52:42)

Yeah, he's got some kind of story to share. And I'm like, that's a pretty decent story, actually. I can use that one. Like, it's fine. He had the Wherewithal to, like, tell me his story. And so after talking with him for just a little bit, just kind of, like shooting the. And I was re. I was treading real lightly with my social engineering because he's a PI So I didn't want to blow it right away. I didn't want to make him suspicious, so I just kind of let it go. And I was like, okay, well, now we know he didn't follow this lady. And mind you, I have covert video going. So I have the video on my phone going, except for the time when I was showing him the pictures.

Hannah (53:14)

So you're videoing this whole conversation?

Mackenzie (53:16)

Videoing it all, the whole thing. So I have everything documented, so it's good to go. So I say, okay, well, I'm gonna run. So I decide that I'm going to go back around the block and just continue walking like I'm looking for my dog and doing my exercise. Just like a regular Wisteria lane mama walking for exercise. So I go around the block, I get back in my car, I go pull my car back into the same driveway from. It's because I came up behind and parked in the driveway. And it was far away. Like, I could still see the subject house. I could see him, but it was so far away that he wouldn't have paid attention. So that's fine. And so first he sees me on foot, then he sees my car. Doesn't make the correlate. Whatever.

Hannah (53:54)

Sure. So he's not making any correlation.

Mackenzie (53:57)

Yeah, no correlation whatsoever. So then I'm sitting there and just continually watching him, and he's still sitting in his car doing nothing, Just minding everybody's business or minding. Nobody's minding nobody doing something.

Hannah (54:09)

He's not doing surveillance. He's, like, pledging a frat, literally, is what this.

Mackenzie (54:12)

He's doing something. He was dying. Hands to some stuff. So anyways, this lady who he's. Who he thinks he's doing an actual surveillance on, she comes home, and she goes into the house, and then she comes back out. She's bringing no groceries inside or doing whatever. Or whatever she bought from the store. And, you know, now she's got the baby running around, and they're playing in the front yard, and she got the sprinkler on. Like they're doing all this stuff, right? And I'm documenting this just to show that. And then I would pan over to his car. So I would document her, pan it over his car to show that he's still there. This is what's Going on. Okay. So we do a whole day of pretend surveillance. Right? I'm doing surveillance on him.

Hannah (54:49)

Oh, my God.

Mackenzie (54:50)

While he's not doing surveillance on her. And he thinks he is. Right, Right. So end of the day comes, and he calls the. The employer that we work for, and he says, hey, I just want to let you know there's been no activity today. I haven't seen the girl again.

Hannah (55:03)

I've seen a few other girls, but not that. Right.

Mackenzie (55:06)

He's like, I ain't seen nothing. So I get. They're like, all right, well, it's been eight hours. That's a full day of surveillance. So I guess leave like you do. When a client asks for surveillance, we usually do four hour increments and kind of see what's happening, engage if we should come back another time or if we stay the whole day, whatever. And so if someone doesn't come out in the morning, usually we'll stay through the afternoon just to see what happens, or we'll try and figure out what else they're doing with their life. Anyways, so he says, ain't nothing happened. I don't know what to tell you. I'm gonna leave. So, like, all right, break off. So we ended up doing another two days of surveillance on him because they told him they. They ordered another three days of surveillance. I did this for two more days and nothing.

Hannah (55:45)

He did nothing.

Mackenzie (55:46)

No activity, no nothing.

Hannah (55:48)

Were you concerned about this high man driving around? Like, what do you do about that?

Mackenzie (55:52)

I couldn't. How could I. How could I say anything? And so after that, like, it had been several hours. Like, he sat there for hours after I approached him. So what do I do? Like, do. Is he still. Could you call the police?

Hannah (56:05)

I guess. Is that like a. I mean, I'm. I don't know. Because you don't want to interfere with this case and get him. Get the. You want to get the information you need. But I'm like, you could call a police officer and be like, there's a guy outside that's like, hop.

Mackenzie (56:17)

You can make an anonymous call and be like this. But the time he left, it was like four or five hours later.

Hannah (56:22)

Right.

Mackenzie (56:23)

Is he still high? I don't know. Like, what do you. And then if he gets pulled over and he's not high and they let him go, now he's suspicious at the very least. So then it's like, we've blown our cup. So it's like, what do you do? I don't know. Also not my job. Like, I don't like it, obviously, if.

Hannah (56:37)

Someone Observe and report.

Mackenzie (56:38)

Yeah, observe and report. If someone's in imminent danger, I see something happening that I know is happening, fine. But to follow the statute that I'm bound by Chapter 493, Section 6119 of the 40 state statute boots. I'm not allowed to just in insert myself all willy nilly. Like I can just do, you know.

Hannah (56:54)

So I think that's important to understand just because I know it's easy to.

Mackenzie (56:57)

Be like, wait, you should have said something. But I'm like, it's.

Hannah (57:01)

Yeah. You're operating under a code and a license that has trained you for this.

Mackenzie (57:06)

Yes. And so I kind of like, I don't know. Is this guy still high? I don't know. It's been enough time. Is he not high anymore? Did he have enough snacks? I don't know. Know. So we do surveillance a couple more days and he just sits there. He says nothing happened. Meanwhile, I see her do all kinds of stuff. Okay, so this guy, this guy turns in an entire three day surveillance report. He turned in a couple of time shots where he is like, not hourly. Like is really kind of standard. An hour, two hours just to kind of show you're still there is kind of standard. He turned in random time shots throughout the day. I think one time he videotaped the garbage man coming and like, he was showing that he was there and like things were happening. But my documentation at least showed my employer, like, this is what she was doing and he was doing. Right. So he build, he built. Now, mind you, surveillance is usually 100 to 150 an hour.

Hannah (58:03)

He's doing eight hour days.

Mackenzie (58:05)

Eight hour days, three days. And not to mention the first one where we can't prove nothing because nobody was doing surveillance on him. But we can only assume. So that's like what it takes. That's the 2400 bucks that he just billed the client, if not more. He is getting to do nothing, sit there, hang out, have a circle jerk with himself, eat snacks and get high and watch Barn.

Hannah (58:25)

I'm like, yes, he should be fired. He should also be grounded. Like, this is 100.

Mackenzie (58:31)

Yes, this is a child 100%. So anyways, he turns it in as if he's worked this whole case and he bills for the whole time. So not only are you committing employment fraud, now you're committing fraud yourself. Because I proved that she did do stuff. I proved that I was there. And he was like, well, she's lying. The days that whenever they confronted him about it, they said, we. She's an investigator of ours. You're busted. You know, whatever.

Hannah (59:00)

And so how did that go? Do you know how that went down? How they confronted him, so.

Mackenzie (59:04)

Because they wouldn't pay him. And he said, you gotta. Because they were waiting to see if, come payday, if he would be like, y' all didn't pay me for this surveillance. And they wanted to see if he would say something. He did not get paid for that three days. So he said, hey, y' all didn't pay me for this three days. And they said, why should we pay you for that three days? He said, well, because I did surveillance. And they said, did you? And they said, browser history. Exactly. And let me show you the surveillance that happened on this day. So they showed my video without. Without telling him who I was. Right. They showed my video and they said, how come our other investigator was there on that day, got the surveillance video, showed him the date and time stamps the video, what she did, all the things. He said, well, maybe that investigator is lying. And that's not the day they were there, so you have to pay me or I'm going to take you to court. They said, I bet. So then they hired another investigator so that it wasn't conflict of interest for me to do my own investigation. They hired another investigator to go door to door and get all their ring doorbell cameras. Was. So now we have video documentation from all the neighbors, which we couldn't reveal why, what the investigation we were doing. But they had another investigator on foot, go door to door, get all the reading, everybody who had a camera, and they gladly provided it. So people were sending, like, screenshots.

Hannah (60:14)

I don't like that would scare me. I mean, I guess it's good to be on guard.

Mackenzie (60:18)

But they were sending videos and, like, screenshots of the times of days. And you could. Could see in the screenshots his car. And there was one neighbor that had a camera, like, on the corner of their house where you could see my car and his car just in the frame at the same time.

Hannah (60:36)

Busted.

Mackenzie (60:37)

And it was during a time when the subject's car was also there outside the garage. But he said he never saw her. Busted. And so I was like. And they're like, how come she got to Vince and you didn't? So they're like, oh, we didn't pay you for that case because she worked the case, not you. And unless you want us to sue you personally, we are. They did notify the state.

Hannah (61:00)

I was gonna say, are we getting rid of his License. Because we need to.

Mackenzie (61:02)

Yeah, absolutely. So just on that investor, like, there was a whole investigation done by the state of Florida. So in the state of Florida, your private investigator license is governed by the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, who also governs concealed weapons and security and bodyguard and all. All these other, you know, licenses or whatever. And so they did go to the Department of Agriculture. They did submit a formal complaint, and they did end up pulling his license because.

Hannah (61:27)

Good.

Mackenzie (61:28)

Don't be a dogfish, honey.

Hannah (61:30)

Just go work in a dispensary. Like, I don't know what to tell you.

Mackenzie (61:33)

And see, that's the problem. Yeah, like, that's the problem. And a lot of people say, oh, I want to be a PI because you think it's just eating snacks and getting high and watching porn and football and smoking whatever you're talking and just doing nothing. This job, being a surveillance investigator is hard. It. It is very, like, anticipatory. Like, you're constantly anxious, wondering what they're going to do next. You could be on. You could get busted. You could get confronted. Like, you have to be on at all times. It's exhausting.

Hannah (62:00)

Like, I think he just. He thought of surveillance, and he's like, oh, unsupervised. Chill time.

Mackenzie (62:05)

Yeah, I'm not a cop anymore. They don't have to track my cop car or whatever. And so he thinks he's got this cool race car, which, by the way, this guy had stupid rims on his car. Noticeable rims that you would notice anywhere. So, like, you know how there's certain cars where. Like. Like, maybe it has a. It's a black Jeep with, like, a pink grill. Like, just this morning, I picked my son up from school yesterday. I saw a black Jeep with a pink grill, and I was like, oh, I like that pink. And I saw it again this morning, and I was like, oh, that's the same car.

Hannah (62:28)

And that's bad for a PI and.

Mackenzie (62:31)

That'S bad for PI and so I just thought it was interesting that this idiot has these stupid rims on his car. And it's like, those are noticeable. Like, anybody who saw those twice would be like, oh, my gosh, those are the same rims. So it was stupid. But anyways, so they look back on this guy's employment history. He's been working for them for two years.

Hannah (62:50)

Oh, no.

Mackenzie (62:50)

And they found 27 cases where there was no video at all whatsoever. And he just said nothing happened. And I guess I don't think they realize that, like, until you compile it, you don't realize how little results this person's getting. Maybe.

Hannah (63:06)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (63:07)

And so I think it was like, 27 cases over the course of two years where he had no video. Now they're like, we don't know if any of this is accurate. It. So that's awful.

Hannah (63:15)

I mean, they should have caught him sooner.

Mackenzie (63:17)

No, no, totally. They should have. But when you're willing to go far away and when you. When you say, hey, I have a case two hours away, and they're like, hey, I'll take it, you're like, oh, great, this guy's willing to go anywhere. He doesn't have a big family. He doesn't have to get home at night. Whereas, like me, I have a son. Like, I have to get home at a certain time. Not all cases allow that, but I would like to. But this guy's like, yeah, I'll do whatever, go wherever. I don't care. Go into. Of course, you know, he's willing to do all these things.

Hannah (63:43)

Things.

Mackenzie (63:43)

And so personally, I feel like it should have been caught sooner. But what that does is it puts them in a predicament because now all the cases that he's ever worked for them or for anybody are now under investigation.

Hannah (63:56)

Yeah. So do they do that?

Mackenzie (63:59)

What?

Hannah (63:59)

Like, do they go back and reinvestigate all those cases?

Mackenzie (64:02)

I imagine, but that's something they have to do in office. Like, they have to think, okay, who was this client? So now they have to go to all those. Because now they have to tell the client it. They have to tell them this because it's their case and it's just the right thing to do. You could not tell them, but if anything came back, it would be really embarrassing for the company, for the industry. So let's say it's like, you know, ABC Insurance or whatever, insurance company or whatever attorney. You have to go through every case that. That investigator has worked for that particular client, and now you have to let the client know that every single one of those is questioned now. So then the client has to go through all the cases. Has this settled? Is this still open? And if. If it's still open, then they have to re. Relay that to the other side. So that's part of discovery. Now. Like, now they have to share. They have to share all of that.

Hannah (64:48)

What is his involvement in that consequence? Like, does he have to. Like, do they sue him back for everything he's made over the last two years? Like, is he able to argue some cases he was doing accurately? Like, does he have to go through.

Mackenzie (65:00)

Each Case, from what I understand. And if anybody's listening and says that I'm wrong, I would love to hear where it's different. And this is where I don't really get involved. Like, I'll start asking questions, and then it's a whole big thing. So I really don't. I really kind of stick to. I kind of stay in my lane. You did your job. From what I understand, as an employee, you're protected because if you something up, like, it's. It's gross misconduct. No doubt. And can you get in trouble for that? By law? Yeah. And he did steal money from them, so I do know that. I do know that there was a case, but I don't know if it was because he stole money from them or if the. If. If. If he had to go back and, like, re. Did they have to reinvestigate, the people that had still open cases or whatever. All I know is that after I did the investigation on him, they could no longer call me to do a reinvestigation on any of his cases, because now it's a conflict of interest. So I'm not privy to what happened on the resurveillance, if there were any.

Hannah (65:55)

Do we know where he is now, though?

Mackenzie (65:57)

He's not licensed. They took his license. Yeah, his license is gone. I think he had an agency, and his agency's white, and I don't know what he's doing now. His Facebook is kind of low, his social media is kind of mer. And he's just living with his mom.

Hannah (66:10)

Is that confirmed, or are you assuming not?

Mackenzie (66:12)

No, that confirmed.

Hannah (66:12)

Both could be true. Yeah, that tracks. That tracks. Hey, I. I mean, I'd rather him in his mom's basement than out on the road, so.

Mackenzie (66:22)

Right.

Hannah (66:22)

That makes him happy.

Mackenzie (66:24)

You failed as a law enforcement officer. You failed as a private investigator, dude. Maybe just, like, go to the Wendy's and be like, y', all, can I just work here? Is that. That's not a lot of liability.

Hannah (66:35)

People at Wendy's work hard and shouldn't have to deal with his high ass, too.

Mackenzie (66:39)

No, that's awful.

Hannah (66:40)

Wendy's employee.

Mackenzie (66:41)

No, but I'm saying, like, do something that's, like. Doesn't require, like, a bunch of, like.

Hannah (66:46)

Any kind of responsibility or ambition.

Mackenzie (66:49)

Yeah, like now. Now people that work at Wendy's going to be mad at me. I'm sorry, y'. All. I don't mean that. I'm just saying. Go get it.

Hannah (66:55)

I didn't.

Mackenzie (66:55)

Go get a job that doesn't require you to have as Much responsibility, You know what I mean?

Hannah (67:01)

Well, I also. Oh yeah, I thought of this as you were talking. And I remember this. Whenever we, as, I mean, men and women, but especially women, are feeling bad about ourselves, feeling like we're not working hard enough, maybe we're like, I'm not qualified for that job. Apply for the job. This man was like, yeah, I'm totally qualified to be a private investigator, even though all I want to do is jerk off and get high in my car. And that's totally fine. In fact, they should let me do that. And they're really annoying for not letting me do that. Like, guys, we need to have the confidence of this man. We really, really do.

Mackenzie (67:39)

Yeah, like, honestly, like he was legit and he rolled down the window and all this smoke come rolling out and I'm like, he does not give a. Like I could have been an undercover. Like you're. You were a cop.

Hannah (67:47)

Like, you know now also the flirting with you, that's another thing. Whenever you're like, oh, I don't want to flirt with my crush. I don't want to ask someone out. I'm too scared. This man got caught watching porn in his car and thought, yeah, she'd hit this. Let me try. Let me just give it a try.

Mackenzie (68:05)

I'm just saying, just be that say.

Hannah (68:08)

For your whole life has not ever worked.

Mackenzie (68:11)

I said, so what are you doing here? He said, I was just waiting for you to walk into my life. Like, I was waiting for him. I was waiting for him to be like, did it hurt when you fell from heaven?

Hannah (68:22)

You're like, no, but it hurt when you crack that window. Excuse me, I need an inhaler. That's crazy. This is a good one.

Mackenzie (68:29)

This was a PI who dog fished. I got dog fished by another PI.

Hannah (68:34)

Yeah, but you got him. But I got him good.

Mackenzie (68:36)

We got him. And I did it legally and responsibly. So listen, if he got caught, this was his own fault.

Hannah (68:46)

Do they drug test you guys for your license sense?

Mackenzie (68:48)

No.

Hannah (68:49)

No. Interesting.

Mackenzie (68:50)

They, at least in the state of Florida, I. If you are employed by a company, they might have a. Yeah, they could, as your employer, they could have a drug test rule or whatever. But in Florida to get your PI license it usually there's a 40 hour course you have to take and you have to have a clean record as far as no felonies. And I think no non violent crimes or no violent crimes or whatever. I think. And you got to do the background check like the FBI, the fingerprints about all the things. Things but other than that, like, you don't. They don't drug test you. Just background. Just a full background check and all that jazz.

Hannah (69:22)

I mean, that makes sense, because what you do on your own time is allowed.

Mackenzie (69:24)

Yeah. And every state governs their own private investigators, so whatever state you live in, they will have a separate set of rules for what they allow.

Hannah (69:33)

Oh, man. Well, this is a funny one. I mean, I'm glad he's off the case. And the. And the registry.

Mackenzie (69:42)

Can I. I will say, if y'. All. If y' all are on my social media and you go back through my PI stories, there's. Couple of times I've caught PIs watching porn.

Hannah (69:51)

I want to know.

Mackenzie (69:53)

I mean, there. There is a. There is a. It's amazing what PIs do on surveillance. And you're in the.

Hannah (70:00)

You're in your car, like, fine.

Mackenzie (70:03)

Nobody can see you. The windows are dark.

Hannah (70:05)

It's more. It's like, nothing should interfere with your job. How about that? You're on the clock. You can do your makeup all you. All you want, but you still. You still do your job.

Mackenzie (70:17)

My advice is doing makeup. And I will admit there have been times when I've been like, I. Well, no. Is one time. Only one time.

Hannah (70:24)

There's subjects coming out, but I didn't finish my lash. Yeah.

Mackenzie (70:27)

I've done that a hundred times. Like, half my face is done. Like, if y' all ever see me do my makeup, it looks really stupid before you blend it. And.

Hannah (70:33)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (70:34)

And there have been times when I have followed somebody just, like, with my face not even done, and I, like, blended as I drive. Or, like, I'll get to, like, Walmart, put on some sunglasses and go in with unblended makeup. I do not give a crap. I got a job to do.

Hannah (70:45)

We should not do makeup while we're driving. Driving. But. And I'm not. I'm. No, I'm just saying that I have really good.

Mackenzie (70:51)

Buddy.

Hannah (70:52)

No, but I don't do that.

Mackenzie (70:54)

Also, we don't do that.

Hannah (70:55)

Yeah.

Mackenzie (70:56)

Only add, like, a red light or something.

Hannah (70:58)

Yeah, exactly.

Mackenzie (70:59)

Also, not even.

Hannah (70:59)

Don't do that. Nobody do that. All you can do is listen to your podcast.

Mackenzie (71:03)

Right? But no, there has been one time where I was doing my makeup, and I was so deep in it that I totally did not pay attention. And the person left, like, it. Ha. It just. You're human, and then you feel like shit for it. Because I'm. I'm someone who always tries to do the right thing. And so I felt bad, and so.

Hannah (71:17)

I will this guy didn't feel like for it though. And that's what separates.

Mackenzie (71:21)

I missed him coming out. I'm gonna go back and do the surveillance. And they're like, please do.

Hannah (71:25)

And this guy said, money, please.

Mackenzie (71:28)

Yeah. And I think it was maybe $30,000 in surveillance that they had calculated that he in time that they think he wasn't actually on surveillance.

Hannah (71:37)

Wow.

Mackenzie (71:38)

Or something like that. It was a big number. That's a lot. That's like half a year's salary. Like that's a lot, y'. All.

Hannah (71:43)

If you are working hard and trying your best and you're not high watching porn in sports at your workplace, ask for the raise, ask for the promotion. Speak up in the meeting. We are more capable than things than we think because the audacity of this man. Just think about that. Whenever you're like, oh my God, I'm not qualified to do this thing I want to do. You are. Unless you're sitting in your car right now doing what he was doing, which I mean, I guess go off, but don't drive. Please call an Uber.

Mackenzie (72:13)

Yeah, like don't. Also, don't be high and drive. And like, also if you're in a position where you can like we're not mandated reporters, which means like if we see something out on a surveillance, we are not required to. To. We are not mandated to report that to law enforcement unless someone's in danger, then obviously it's common sense. But like we're not mandated to report that shit. And so like if you're out here getting high and like you notice that something's happening, like, like you're, you're literally observing. And so if you see something, like you might be the person that sees something or sees someone getting hurt that like, you know what I mean? I'm just saying if you're going to be out there and you're people watching, like you could be someone that, you know, helps somebody if they're in a position. I don't know.

Hannah (72:55)

Really? Yeah. Just don't be an be safe everybody. Do like do whatever you're going to do safely. We're never going to.

Mackenzie (73:02)

Yeah.

Hannah (73:03)

We're not the people that are going to tell you never leave your house and just be straight and narrow all the time. That's why also when I do the self defense stuff, we have a company Overdrive that sends like drink test kits, but they also have like drug test kits. And I'm always like, look, I'm not your mom. Do whatever you're gonna do. But I want you to know that this company overdrive. You can buy things to test. If you're gonna take something that you maybe are not gonna admit to me that you're taking. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, guys just do things safely. And that's. Yeah, we're saying, we're not saying you can't smoke your weed. We just are saying do it. Not with this guy.

Mackenzie (73:39)

I tell people, I don't give a shit what you do. Don't bring in my house, don't bring in my car, don't bring it near my kid. I don't care. I don't care what the law is. We're not. I don't want to party.

Hannah (73:50)

We were talking about the, my. I have a lot of friends in Memphis. I lived in Memphis. Shout out to Memphis. But they always say, be sweet. The kids are being mad.

Mackenzie (74:00)

I know.

Hannah (74:00)

I love your Southern side, man. He is. I, I, I, I, I admire his audacity is all. He can't say something nice.

Mackenzie (74:11)

Like he didn't even try. Like he just said, nah, nothing happened. Like at least one of the days. Maybe follow her just to show like, like you would think, man, I should really pretend like I'm doing something here.

Hannah (74:22)

Also, it sounds like it wasn't a hard case. Like.

Mackenzie (74:24)

No, it was very easy.

Hannah (74:27)

Not like a lot of work for him.

Mackenzie (74:28)

No, it was very simple. Like, it was, was dumb.

Hannah (74:31)

Good luck to whoever dates that man too. Geez.

Mackenzie (74:35)

Yeah.

Hannah (74:36)

Full time job.

Mackenzie (74:37)

That is it. He is a full time job.

Hannah (74:39)

Dude.

Mackenzie (74:39)

If you.

Hannah (74:40)

Okay, here's for the audience. If you have a story about somebody that was maybe dogfishing about their work, they said they were on the clock and then maybe they were hooking up.

Mackenzie (74:49)

What were they doing?

Hannah (74:51)

If they were smoking weed, if they were.

Mackenzie (74:54)

So many cases of people saying they're at work and they're not, that's what.

Hannah (74:57)

We, we have Patreon episodes about. Sometimes we'll read your emails and your submissions because they're still.

Mackenzie (75:02)

Yeah, send them to us.

Hannah (75:02)

Dog fishy. If they're even the, the slightest bit of dog fishy, if there's a tiny, tiny dogfish about it, send it to us.

Mackenzie (75:10)

And if you've ever hired a private investigator or ever wanted to hire a private investigator for something, I want to know the story behind that and I want to judge your PI. I want to say, what did they do? And what would I have done? And I don't know, I just think, not to, not to be mean, just to compare notes or whatever, but I would Love to hear your stories of that. If you. If you ever, like, man, I had the story where I thought this and I hired a PI but it turns out this or whatever. We'd love to hear that too.

Hannah (75:33)

And that's also maybe. I mean, we've done this kind of before. Like a PI Deep dive questions about private investigating. I wonder if it's been a while. Maybe we put out a. It would be fun to do a PI Episode. That's like, people can ask you questions about becoming a P.I. or hiring a P.I. like, what questions should they ask the person? And maybe we do, like, a PI.

Mackenzie (75:52)

Focused Patreon episode, I think. Yeah, y'. All send in your. Send in your questions and see if y' all have questions. Like, PI questions or just anything related to what would you do if. Kind of questions.

Hannah (76:05)

Oh, put her in some crazy situations. That's fun. Be like, okay, here's the situation. Mackenzie, what do you do?

Mackenzie (76:10)

I think that would be fun, and it would really help us to connect with you guys more. So if you want. If that's something you want to do. Yeah, send that over Investigate at the Dating Detectives podcast.com. you can also send your. Your dogfish stories there.

Hannah (76:21)

Please do. We get back to you as fast as we can, but we do have a lot of submissions. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish there were not that many stories, but there are. So if we haven't gotten back to you, our team is working on it as much as they can. Thank you for your patience and for taking the time to write out your stories, because we know it's very brave and it's very hard to tell some of these stories. So thank you, Patreon. Like I said, $5 a month. We've got a Patreon where you get bonus episodes. You get to talk to us more. We do book club, and then $9. You get all of that, plus ad free listening experience.

Mackenzie (76:58)

The girlfriend experience. Yo, I'm so stupid. Why do we call it a girl? I like it. It's the girlfriend experience.

Hannah (77:04)

Careful. This guy is gonna be like, what? I want that. He's gonna be like, I don't know what that means, but I sounds like.

Mackenzie (77:10)

I like it. It sounds like.

Hannah (77:12)

Like great.

Mackenzie (77:12)

It sounds like I was here waiting for you to walk into my life.

Hannah (77:16)

Wow. He. Little did he know. Little did he know. McKenzie, I love your undercover stories. Thank you. You're the best.

Mackenzie (77:25)

They're always.

Hannah (77:27)

They get better and better.

Mackenzie (77:28)

We love you so much. And as always, trust your intuition.

Hannah (77:37)

It.