The Crypto Catfish

Summary

The Dating Detectives: "The Crypto Catfish"

Podcast: The Dating Detectives (Dear Media)
Episode Release: January 5, 2026
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (A), Hanna Anderson (B)
Guest: Mary (C)

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the world of "pig butchering" crypto romance scams, featuring a riveting interview with Mary, an avid true crime consumer who nonetheless became a target—and victim—of a sophisticated online scam. Through her story, the hosts and guest explore how emotional manipulation, technical deception, and psychological techniques can ensnare even the most cautious and educated daters.

Key themes: trusting your intuition ("femtuition"), the evolving tactics of scammers, and the importance of sharing victim stories to break stigma and educate others.

---

1. Setting the Stage: Resolutions and Red Flags

Timestamps: 00:54–03:20

• New Year's Resolution:
  The hosts urge listeners to trust their gut, or "femtuition," and not feel guilty about ending relationships that trigger warning signs—even if the reason "doesn’t feel big enough."
  • Quote (B, 01:27): "Your New Year's resolution is to dump them. Put that on the vision board."
  • Advice includes defining what your intuition feels/sounds like, journaling, and working with a therapist.

---

2. Introducing the Guest and Scammer's Techniques

Timestamps: 03:20–07:52

• Mary's Background:
  Mary positions herself as a "true crime girl," highly suspicious of online dating, previously burned by bad relationships, who finally caves to friends' pressure to try Hinge and Bumble.
• Initial Contact:
  Mary describes her match as attentive, interesting, with well-rounded photos and corroborating stories (e.g., sending photos to match his anecdotes).
• Building Rapport:
  The scammer “mirrored” Mary’s preferences and interests, sometimes even before she shared them—raising, in retrospect, suspicions that he’d researched her online presence.

---

3. Transfer to Private Channels & Early Trust-Building

Timestamps: 08:01–14:11

• Shifting to WhatsApp:
  The scammer requested moving from app chat to WhatsApp under a plausible work-related pretext ("so messages won't be missed at work"), subtly increasing privacy and security for himself.

• Video Call Tactic:
  An attempted video call finally occurs—late at night, in dim lighting, with the scammer partially obscured, wearing a baseball hat, and acting fidgety.

  • Mary's reflection: In the moment, seeing him on video eased doubts ("Okay, I saw him, it was legitimate"), but later she questions whether it was genuinely him.

---

4. Friends Turn Detective & Red Flags Intensify

Timestamps: 16:54–21:31

• Skeptical Friends:
  Mary’s friends join a group chat, conducting reverse image searches and investigating the scammer’s claims. They fail to find any online presence matching his supposed identity—no LinkedIn, Instagram, etc.—triggering suspicion.

• Scammer Provides Documentation:
  The scammer uses WhatsApp's disappearing photo function to send a U.S. green card as "proof," but Mary can’t revisit it later for scrutiny.

---

5. Pulling on Emotional Heartstrings

Timestamps: 21:31–24:49

• Personal Tragedy:
  The scammer shares a story about losing his wife to COVID-19 in a moving, detailed narrative designed to align with Mary’s own family losses, creating deep emotional rapport.
  • Quote (C, 23:31): "He tells me this beautiful story about him and his wife... I was crying listening to him tell this story."

---

6. Pivot to Crypto—From Conversation to "Safe" Investment

Timestamps: 24:49–29:47

• Introducing Crypto:
  Crypto is introduced gradually, first through casual conversation, then through technical explanations checked independently by Mary using Google and ChatGPT—everything seems to check out.

• Practice Run:
  The scammer proposes a simulated crypto trade ("with pretend money") to build confidence. Mary notes that she never clicks links or directly sends money to him—standard anti-scam advice.

• Escalation:
  After the simulation, the scammer suggests investing "real money" with the possibility of paying off Mary’s student loans, tying the potential windfall to their putative shared future.

---

7. Emotional Manipulation & Grooming for Larger Investment

Timestamps: 29:47–40:20

• Deepening the Bond:
  As Mary wavers on investing, the scammer amplifies relationship talk, discussing children and a future together. When Mary reveals her cancer and infertility, he responds with kindness and promises of unwavering support, further cementing trust.

  • Quote (C, 33:28): "He gives me the most caring, kind response that you could imagine... you couldn't ask for a better response."

• Pressure Resumes:
  The scammer links crypto investment to their future, making it a test of trust and mutual support.

---

8. The Mechanics of the Scam—App Deception

Timestamps: 40:20–45:00

• Legitimate-Looking Apps:
  Mary downloads Coinbase and "Tickmill" apps herself after verifying their legitimacy (Tickmill is a real company, but the scammer’s app is a clone/fake). He is careful never to ask for her passwords or send her direct links, adding to her sense of safety.

• Initial Trade:
  Mary invests $1,000 and successfully "withdraws" some winnings, bolstering confidence.

  • "So what's the scam?" Mary recalls thinking; everything seemed by the book.

• Escalation:
  The scammer pushes for more money, referencing student loans and suggesting she quit her job to access her 401k funds—triggering Mary’s finally un-ignorable alarm bells.

  • Quote (C, 46:54): "That was a line… I was like, no, absolutely not."

---

9. The Reveal: Excuses, App Vanishes, and the Final Blow

Timestamps: 48:34–59:29

• Scheduled Return Thwarted:
  Right before a planned in-person meeting, the scammer invents a family emergency. Mary begins testing his stories, noticing time zone inconsistencies and other holes.

• Withdrawing Funds Blocked:
  When Mary tries to withdraw her money, the app "crashes" and becomes unusable.

• Gaslighting:
  The scammer becomes angry, blaming her for acting without him and threatening money laundering charges.

• Consulting a Crypto Expert:
  Mary contacts a local crypto expert who confirms this is a classic "pig butchering" scam: the scammer creates a fake trading app, deposits seem to grow, but the funds are never accessible.

• The App Disappears:
  The Tickmill app is gone from the App Store, and the developer is linked with known scams.

• Total Loss:
  Mary's entire savings are gone.

  • Quote (C, 59:33): "My entire savings, Mary. Yeah... I am so angry."

---

10. Aftermath: Grief, Reporting, Shame, and Community

Timestamps: 59:47–66:44

• Emotional Fallout:
  Mary grapples more with the emotional betrayal and humiliation than the money. She describes having to process losing both her money and the sense of safety she'd finally begun to feel.

  • Quote (C, 61:42): "Coming to the realization that somebody was able to manipulate so effectively my security system... was devastating."

• Reporting:
  She files with the FBI, local police, and includes WhatsApp transcripts. The process is draining and, ultimately, dismissive—police inform her that nothing can be done but her report is noted for statistics.

• Support System:
  Her friends rally—one even flies out to visit and help her reclaim a lost experience at a restaurant.

---

11. Attempted "Recovery Scam" and Broader Lessons

Timestamps: 66:44–69:58

• The Double Scam:
  Scammers attempt a follow-up, posing as another victim who claims a "tech guy" can recover lost funds—for a fee.

  • Quote (C, 68:09): “She’s giving me all this stuff, and I’m just like, I know what this is… nobody can recover our money.”

• Scam Sophistication:
  The hosts and Mary emphasize that these scams are run like businesses—with psychological consultants, scripted playbooks, and even some scammers trafficked themselves.

• Moral:
  Even the most careful, intelligent, professionally skeptical are vulnerable.

---

12. Advice & Key Takeaways

Timestamps: 72:19–77:44

• Sharing to Break Stigma:
  Mary publicly posts her story to counteract shame and warn others, finding many private admissions from other victims.

  • Quote (C, 71:49): "'Silence protects the scammers. Talking about it protects everyone.'"

• How to Spot Similar Scams:

  • Tragic/scary personal backstories that mirror your own
  • Moving conversations off dating apps (especially to encrypted or international messaging platforms like WhatsApp or Signal)
  • Emotional oversharing and future-faking
  • Legit-looking but sketchily-reviewed apps
  • Excuses for not meeting in person, or only doing low-quality video calls
  • Sudden pressure to invest larger sums or even quit your job

• Reporting Resources:

  • FBI’s Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3)
  • Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
  • State Attorney General
  • Financial regulators (e.g., SEC)
  • The relevant financial app/company

• Trust Yourself:
  Hosts reinforce making intuition your "North Star."

  • Quote (A, 92:41): "Our New Year's resolution is trust your femme tuition."
  • Quote (C, 41:30): "I was ignoring it. Like, I was full on ignoring it at this point..."

---

13. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Manipulation:
  (C, 35:28) "He gives me the most caring, kind response that you could imagine..."

• On Feeling Safe:
  (C, 40:20) "[After the sympathy] I would say I was all in... that idea that, like, I must be overthinking this."

• On the Aftermath:
  (C, 61:42) "Coming to the realization that somebody was able to manipulate so effectively my security system... was devastating."

• On Breaking the Stigma:
  (C, 71:49) "'Silence protects the scammers. Talking about it protects everyone.'"

---

14. Final Reflections

• Hosts’ Takeaways:

  • Even "true crime girls" are vulnerable due to overconfidence or overcompensation.
  • Smart, educated people are just as susceptible.
  • Scam artists use tailored scripts based on psychological manipulation.

• Advice to Listeners:

  • Trust your intuition.
  • Don’t rationalize away red flags.
  • Educate yourself and your friends—especially about the emergence of fake apps and new scam tactics.
  • If you’re a victim, reach out, share your story, and utilize your support network—shame protects criminals, not you.

---

If you or someone you know has been scammed:

• Report to authorities (IC3, FTC, police)
• Seek support—from friends or mental health professionals
• Know you are not alone, and that scammers are sophisticated professionals

---

For Further Stories or Support

Email: [e-mail]
Patreon and social media support communities available—details shared at the end of episode.

---

Key Motto:

"Trust your femtuition—and dump him." (A & B, 92:43)

---

A must-listen for anyone in the dating app world, or anyone at risk of believing they're too savvy to fall for a scam.

Transcript

[A]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-6-7233 for support.

[B]

Happy dating Detectives Monday.

[A]

Hello and Happy New Year 2020.

[B]

Happy New Year.

[C]

And I'm in the studio.

[A]

I know.

[C]

In la.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I bet it's just me and Molly here. And now Hannah is the one that remote far away.

[A]

Can we talk real quick before we get into the story about some New Year's resolutions?

[B]

Oh, yes, let's do it.

[A]

So we thought of a good one will apply to some of you. Maybe if you are hopefully a listener. Yeah. Who is in a relationship where you have noticed a red flag, where you've had some behaviors happen, where you're like, ooh, dog, fishy, maybe. What else?

[B]

If you just feel like there's just something not right and you're like, oh, my femtuition is going off. So hardcore. We really want to empower you to dump them.

[A]

Your New Year's resolution is to dump them. Put that on the vision board.

[B]

If you just, you have this feeling in your gut or in your heart or in your brain and it's just like these spidey senses are tingling and you just know it. I hope this is your empowerment.

[A]

This story is a good one because we talk about how your femtuition can be going off and you tell yourself that's not enough of a reason to.

[C]

Throw in the towel.

[B]

A good enough reason.

[A]

Let us remind you that it is. You don't need a reason.

[B]

Yeah, you really don't. You don't need a reason. It's just a matter of what you feel. So just trust your femtuition. Okay, let's make that our New Year's resolution.

[A]

Trust your femtuition and define femtuition for you. Whether that's with a therapist, with journaling. Think about your past. You can really think about what that little voice sounds like because it's different for everybody. And if you know yours is going off, then you know yours is going off. You know?

[B]

Uh huh. A hundred percent.

[C]

So yay.

[A]

Let us know. Let us know how that goes. Dating Detectives podcast on all platforms.

[B]

Thank you guys. For being here and listening. Today we have a really cool guest. And I love her perspective of. As someone who's a true crime girl.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I love that she's sharing her story, but she never actually met this person.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a usual type of story, but we thought it was important because it's very.

[B]

She had a different perspective.

[A]

It's very informative about a scam. And yeah, her perspective going in was very. She was informed. She watches Dateline like nobody's business. Like, she knows what to look out for and it still happened to her, so it can happen to anybody. And she's great.

[B]

So we're really excited for you to meet her. She's an amazing guest, an amazing storyteller. And let's jump right in. Let's. Let's let our audience hear her.

[A]

Mary, take it away. Mary, thank you for joining us. We've got MacKenzie in LA in a studio. I'm in Vegas. We're all over the place. But you are here. And that's what.

[C]

Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me.

[B]

I really appreciate you coming on to share. What I'm searching will be a very vulnerable story, as they usually are. But thank you, because the sense of community that our guests create and encourage is amazing. So thank you in advance.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and looking forward to sharing and letting other people know. So hopefully we can keep other people safe.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Well, we would love it if you would take it away for us. You have the floor?

[C]

Sure. So I had decided that I was gonna try online dating. I have been very anti online dating for a long time. I'm a true crime person. I love watching documentaries and specials. Anything that comes out, I'm like, why? I must see that. And I am just, you know, I always put myself in the story. I'm like, that that's going to be like, I'm the person who is going to hit somebody with a frying pan and not run away. I'm just going to stay in the room because I'm going to assume it worked. And, you know, every time, you know, I'm always convinced like, oh, gosh, no, that that'll be me. So I was like, no, I'm not trying online dating. I am certain that will not end well.

[B]

That would definitely be my luck.

[C]

Yeah. Like, it'll be. I'll be a Dateline special. Like, I knew it. And so finally my friends convinced me, like, all right, you should try it. And I said, all right, I'll. I'll Give it a shot and see how it goes. So I opened a couple profiles. I used Hinge and Bumble. So I was like, all right, I'll give it a shot and put some thought into my profile and what I was going to do because I was at this point certain, you know, I'm, I'm. I'm here to make it an honest attempt. Like I'm going to put what I can and go with that.

[A]

Can I ask.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What your relationship experience have been like up till now?

[C]

Yes. I am a magnet for a red flag. I just. I don't pick the right guys often. My last relationship was a number of years ago. It was a very dysfunctional relationship. It is part of the reason why I moved out of the location I was in was I needed to get away and kind of, you know, have a restart, start fresh. Yeah. So I left that.

[A]

But that's a lot to be going into. Dating apps with Dateline plus Red Flag collection.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. I was looking for a serious relationship, so I was really making an effort to, you know, put in a serious tone. So making sure, like, my pictures, they were fun, but they were still somewhat me and true to me and not who I thought somebody might be looking for. So really honest attempt. And I got a few matches here and there. It wasn't crazy. And I talk to somebody and they'd ghost. I feel like that was the most common. Was they. Everyone just kind of.

[B]

I hate ghosting. That's happened to me so much. It's so annoying.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Was it like ghosting in the app or once you started texting, ghosting in the app?

[C]

So I got a message it was on Hinge and he was good looking. He had a bunch of interesting pictures. Like they weren't just him in his car. Like they were him clearly traveling and doing other things and activities. And we started talking back and forth. And he was funny, he was charming. Like he was genuinely interested. He was asking good questions. And we felt like even talking, we just felt like two friends that were catching up. Like, that was the feel and the tone of the conversations. And he told really amazing stories, just these really detailed and kind of eloquent stories. Stories. And then he would often send photos that actually matched his story. So, like he was talking about his best friend and his wife. Photo evidence of the best friend and the wife. Or he talked about his assistant a lot. And so he sent a picture of his assistant. So like, it seemed to be genuine and connecting. So he was fun. He was really interesting and super attentive which, I mean, every woman wants to be paid. You know, when I'm talking to you, please pay attention. So it was, you know, it was just really nice to have him just be so engaged in the conversation and not tuned out.

[B]

It's a good feeling when someone cares enough to ask you questions about yourself.

[A]

And on apps, you don't know if anybody's serious. Yeah, they just want to hook up. So if they're putting that much energy in.

[C]

Yeah. Like, his stuff just seemed. It seemed like an effort was there, which kind of started making me think, okay, well, maybe he is legitimate and this is maybe a decent guy. That might be fun that I. I met somebody online that'd be fun. Okay. And there were a lot of things, and this sounds weird, but we would share things and we have a lot in common. But it wasn't after I shared, like, we would talk about something, and I would say, ask for his perspective. And when he would tell me, I would be like, oh, that's really weird, because that's actually what I was about to say. Like, something as random as we were talking about food, and he was going to this one restaurant, and I said, oh, do you have a go to menu item that you typically order? And his was exactly. Exactly what I would order. And it was just funny little things like that that we were like, this is so weird, but against it. Again, it wasn't. After I said something and then he just agreed. I would ask first, and then he would respond with something. Why does it sound too good to be true? Right. So I was like, okay, this guy is. This guy's pretty great. So we talked for a little while, a few days there. And then he was like, hey, do you want to go off the app and do you want a text message? And I was like, all right. I mean, the app is kind of a pain. I didn't have notifications because I don't want them popping up all the time. So, you know, if I did message, I often didn't know. So I was like, yeah, sure, we can text. So he sent a few text messages, and then he asked about going on WhatsApp. And I was like, okay, I really didn't know much about WhatsApp. I do now.

[B]

Why? Because he has an Android?

[C]

No. He wanted to go on WhatsApp. He was actually his iPhone. He wanted to go on WhatsApp because his explanation was he could have it up at work on his computer and wouldn't miss my messages because he would be able to see them.

[B]

I can see that when he wasn't.

[A]

Able to have his phone, I can too. If he doesn't have a Mac, I could see.

[C]

See it.

[A]

What does he do for work?

[C]

So he was in finance. He was a finance guy, consultant type work. So he would help people building their portfolios, and he would go in and work with companies around financial strategy.

[B]

I can see that because you can. Okay, that makes sense to me.

[A]

I could see it too.

[C]

Yeah. And that was it right when he was like, well, you know, I can have it on my computer. And I was like, oh, that's kind of sweet. Like, he doesn't want to miss my messages. So that fed into that kind of like, oh, he's this considerate guy that really cares. And so I was like, okay. I just kind of was like, yeah, sure, I guess that's fine. We can do that. So we went ahead and we started the app WhatsApp.

[A]

I talk about it a lot, but I think financial freedom is one of the most important things we can do for our safety and our independence and relationships, especially as women. It's so important to take ownership of that, and managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle. This year, Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool. Designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life. Budgeting, accounts, investments, net worth, future planning. It puts it together in one dashboard on your laptop or phone. So start your new year on the right foot financially and get 50% off your monarch subscription with code Dating. Monarch has made it so easy for me to track my spending. And, you know, you don't realize how much you're spending on takeout or on little things that you thought were no big deal, like subscriptions. It's just nice to have it all in one place. I also definitely use it to track progress towards future financial goals. It's easier than ever to just stay financially fit is a nice way to think of it, especially as we set our New Year's resolutions. Monarch helped users save over $200 per month on average after joining. And 8 out of 10 members feel more in control of their finances while with Monarch this new year, achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code datingonarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with code dating, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

I have to tell you, my mom and I are similar. She's a better cook than me, but we're both not like natural Chefs per se. But she's really been on a kick of like TikTok recipes and stuff. So I am staying with her right now.

[B]

Now.

[A]

And I got my Green Chef meals delivered and she was so excited. And then when we made them, we made, okay, what do we make? We made like a shrimp salad thing. It was so good. And then we made a pork recipe, but we substituted it with chicken and it was perfect and it was easy. Basically my mom was just blown away that she kind of thought something like Green Chef was maybe not as good as it is. And as she's now getting it herself. So every Green Chef box, it delivers certified organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins and seafood. And that means avoiding ultra processed fillers. So it's actually healthy. And that's some of the most important thing we can do for ourselves. It's not eating bad food. It's eating food that comes from a good place. And Green Chef makes that so easy you can reach wellness goals. I do the Mediterranean plan, but they have high protein, high fiber, plant based and more whatever you need. And, and like I said, you can substitute stuff. It just sends you exactly what you need. They do the research, the meal planning, the grocery shopping and all you do is have low prep, low mass meals for any lifestyle. It's also better for the planet. Green Chef cuts food waste by 20% versus grocery shopping and it offsets a hundred percent of delivery emissions. So we love that I use this and you should too. And we have a fun deal right now with their free Graza olive oil. So right now you can go to greenchef.com dating detectivesgraza and use code dating detectivesgraza. It's dating detectives G R A Z A To get started with 50% off green chef and free Graza olive oil sent in your second and third boxes. This 50% off offer is only available for a limited time, so don't wait. That's code dating [e-mail] dating detectivesgraza and all of the info for all of our sponsors are in the show notes.

[C]

So we'd been talking for a while pretty consistently at this point. And he made a mention of doing a video call and I was like, oh yeah, that'd be great, let's do that. And so we made the plans like, okay, we're going to do this call this time, so on and so on. And he was on a business trip and he would be like, oh, I, this came up. I now have to be here for the client. I have to Go over here. My assistant needs me. Like, all these things kept coming up, and it was getting later and later and later, and I, quite frankly, was getting annoyed.

[A]

And I'm like, I would, too.

[C]

Same. I kind of don't care anymore. I kind of want to just disconnect and go to bed, to be honest. So finally, I was like, you know what? It's late. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. So we'll have to just do this another time. Have a good night. Whatever. Immediately calls me, and I'm like, of course. I'm like, okay, I guess I'll answer. So I answer the phone, and, you know, I had to fix my hair first, but I'm like, okay. No, I. I was ready. So I pick up the phone, and on. It's dark out, right? So it's nighttime. It's late. It's actually very late. So, you know, we don't have, like, bright light. We have lamps on. So it was a little dark. And I was like, that's kind of weird. So dim. He's got a baseball hat on. And we talk, and he's, you know, telling me that he's sorry that all these things came up and.

[B]

This is on the FaceTime.

[C]

This is on FaceTime, not on the WhatsApp. Well, actually, I think it's on. It's on the WhatsApp. Okay, sorry. It is. You're right. It was on the WhatsApp. And I'm tired, and again, I'm still kind of annoyed, so I'm like, huh, okay, well, whatever. Now, in my mind, I've never thought, like, you can't fake like, I can see you. This is who you are. I see your face. He kept messing with something. There was, like, something on the table next to him or whatever. So he kept messing with something. I didn't think much of it, and I was like, all right. Well, he's like, oh, you know, I don't want to keep you up. And I've kept you up so long, and, oh, I'm going to let you go to bed, but I just wanted to make sure I saw your face, and so on and so on. So we get off the phone. It was a matter of minutes, right? It wasn't like we had spent any great deal of time, but I felt in the moment like, okay, I saw him. Like, yeah, it was legitimate. We're good to go. So we continue talking, and we are now, like, all day, every day. But it's, like, normal conversation. Like, it's not all the get to Know you stuff. It's more of like the. Here's what you know, oh, I have this meeting, and, oh, we're going to this restaurant, and his one friend was going with him, and so he sent me a picture of his friend at the restaurant with him, or he'd send me a picture of what they ordered or, you know, things like that. Things that were, again, reinforcing his story. So my friends are very skeptical, and my friends.

[B]

What made them the most skeptical?

[A]

We love them. He seems men in general.

[B]

Yeah. Too good to be true.

[C]

He's a male. No. They started. They were like, you know, this seems great and all, but it just seems.

[B]

A little too good to be true. Okay, so your friends were like, femtuition. I don't know.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Also, I think there's a sweet spot of amount of time to talk before you meet with someone.

[C]

Right. And they're like, why?

[A]

Have you asked over it?

[C]

Yeah. And I was like, well, he's on this business trip. He's coming back. And they're like, okay. Well, the one is, like a total detective. She loves it, and she can find just about anything.

[B]

I like her.

[C]

So we're like, all right, send us some details. And so I send them what I had. I sent them some photos that he had sent me. I sent detail, like his birthday and stuff like that. You know, the. The basic details and the one thing that they wanted. Like, apparently when you send a message on an iPhone, it tags it with certain details. Like it might tag it with if they have their location on it. Might tag a location? Yeah, Might tag a date. Well, when you're on WhatsApp, you don't get that. It doesn't do that anymore. So the things I was sending to them didn't have any of those tags or anything. And by now, it's multiple friends. Like, now multiple friends are in this chat group, and everyone's looking. We couldn't find anything there.

[A]

What, like, no sign of him?

[C]

No sign of him? Yeah. So he had also told me he moved to the US he grew up internationally, and he moved here probably. I think it was like 12 years.

[B]

Ago, like, from Europe. Like, from.

[C]

Like, from Canada. Canada, okay, from Canada. And he sent me on WhatsApp. And on WhatsApp, you can actually set a timer so the picture disappears as soon as they open it. Kind of like Snapchat me. Yeah. Like, he sent me an image of his green card for the U.S. oh, no. And I was like. As I looked at it, and I'm like, okay, well, that Looks like. Because I looked it up first. I looked it up first.

[B]

Hannah's like, I done nothing.

[C]

I was like, okay, wait. And then it disappeared. So I couldn't double check it. But for the most part, I'm like, well, that all looked like what I saw online, so. Okay. But my friends, I wasn't quite suspicious yet. I was still a little like. You know, he keeps telling me that he is a total digital guy. Like, he's a real nerd when it comes to computers and technology, and everything he does is based in technology. So maybe he found a way to, like, come get it all off the Internet. My friends did reverse searches on all the pictures. Nothing. Nothing came up. So again, I'm a little skeptical. I'm in my mind, in the back of my mind, I'm like, that's weird that you wouldn't, like, you don't have a LinkedIn. You don't have. You said you have Instagram at some point.

[A]

I know.

[C]

You said it. He did.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, he had mentioned Instagram at some point. So I'm like, so how would I not find you? Did you ask?

[A]

I feel like that industry.

[C]

Well, that's just it, right? He's finance. I'm thinking, you gotta have a profile. You're running a team. So this, the way you've described it, it sounds like your business, Right. Wouldn't you have a website?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So when I. The only thing he did when I questioned, I'm like, it's really interesting, you know, And I was trying to be casual about it because I didn't want to come out as necessarily accusatory. I'm also a people pleaser.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I'm like, oh, I gotta tiptoe around this. I don't want to upset him. So was when he showed me the green card and he's like, here. Like, this is. I showed you. Like, this is me. And I was like, hmm, all right. He was in his 40s, you know, mid-40s, again, has this career that apparently makes him a lot of money. He talks about all this travel he does. So again, in the back of my mind, there was that something is off, but I wasn't quite there yet.

[B]

It's like a Spidey sense that is, like, it's starting to creep in, but you're like, okay, I don't have enough yet, but there's something not wrong.

[A]

Yeah, I want evidence.

[C]

Right. I started, you know, I started asking more questions, but I never came right out and was like, you have to be lying. You're not on Instagram. Or, like, I kind of made passive comments about, like, oh, my gosh, I found this video.

[B]

I want to share it with you. What's your Instagram? I have to send this to you.

[C]

Right? And if he was answering, he gave a very confident answer, a very potentially legit answer. So I would be like, huh, all right. You know, he's this crypto guy, this security guy, so he must know these things. He must know things I don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was very open. Like, when I would ask questions, he had an answer. You know, he didn't skate around them. You know, I was talking about you. Tell me about your family. And he told me about his mom and his father, and his father had passed away when he was young. I also lost my mother when I was young, so we kind of had something to connect on. He told me up front that his wife had passed away. He had been married. His wife had passed away. And I think I mentioned he's a really good storyteller. And he tells me this beautiful story about him and his wife and how they met and their life together, and then that she was a nurse and that as a nurse, she was sent to New York City to help with the COVID pandemic. During COVID and. And that she was there for a while. And he, you know, told me a little bit about how their interactions were. And then he tells me how she got sick, and he would FaceTime with her. And then the one night he was FaceTiming with her, and she closed her eyes and passed away. And the way he had told this story was so emotional, and so, like, I was crying listening to him tell this story. And I also lost my father to Covid. So it was, again, another point at which it connected with me in kind of a deeper way where it struck something that's, you know, still kind of a trigger, even for me. So it was just this beautiful story, and it was a very loving story, which gave me this impression of him being this loving husband and this wonderful person who, you know, he talks about cooking her dinner. She was a nurse, so he would always cook her dinner after she had worked a long shift. And, you know, things like that that just, again, built this. This person to me that I am looking for. Right? That's. I. You know, who wouldn't want a guy who's gonna make you dinner or surprise you by taking you out to a nice restaurant one night when you don't feel like cooking and, you know, have this. This emotional response to. To his connection with you. So I think those were some of the things that early on built a little sense of trust. So that actually moved us into our first conversation talking about cryptocurrency. So he starts talking about it. He's mentioned it a few times in talking about his clients and what he does, but he's never full on talked about crypto until we get to this conversation. And he. I was like, oh, that's really. Crypto's really interesting. You know, we hear about it all the time now.

[B]

Just real quick, Mary, what, What kind of field of work did you do? Is finance and crypto? Like, is that something you guys.

[C]

I work in human resources, so I probably should have said this earlier. I spend all of my time working with people and talking to people and having conversations about difficult situations. You think I would be picking up on things like red flags and things like that a little bit maybe quickly?

[B]

Hey, listen, even therapists need therapy.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Right, Right. I'm very good at it when I'm in like a work situation, but when it's my own personal.

[B]

But you're both professionals, so you were talking about things that you were interested in together, Right? You know, kind of learning.

[C]

Exactly. And it was just kind of like he would share little things about it and I would ask questions. I'm a very curious person, so I do ask a lot of questions. I gotta know the detail. I wanna understand something. So he would explain crypto and then I would go and Google it. Like, I would Google what? Or ChatGPT actually is what I would use. I would chatgpt whatever he said. One, to have it interpreted in language I can understand and to be like, yeah, you felt like not an idiot. Exactly. And then I also wanted to see, like, is what he's saying real? Like, I want to verify.

[B]

That's so smart.

[C]

What he's saying is actually how this works. So everything came up legitimate. Everything he talks about was the terminology. Right? Terminology, even the hows and the whys. Like when he would talk about how it works and what the processes, even that stuff checked out. Like, yes, it is very fast paced. It is. Timing matters and this and that. So I was learning a lot. I felt like it was really super interesting. So he finally says, hey, do you want to try it now? I, yes, do want to try it. However, I'm smart, right? I'm an intelligent woman. And I'm like, no, are you crazy? I have read Google, I've watched Dateline. This is not something I'm going to pursue. So no, I don't want to do it. And he kept trying and would go other routes and say things like, no was a negotiation for him, but he wasn't super pushy about it. Like, he wasn't hard. It was more like, oh, this is why you should try it, and blah, blah, blah. Like, he was more reassuring. Yeah. Of why I should do it.

[B]

But he'd do the thing where he would go and talk about another subject, like, oh, oh, by the way. Oh, my gosh, it's all this really pretty bird outside my window. And then you talk about that for a little while, and then somehow he would circle it back to the crypto.

[C]

Always came back to crypto.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he wanted me to. To do this. He wanted me try it. I kept saying no, but he's like, hey, there's a simulation app that you can. Or a simulation version you can use. So let's try it. Let's just. That way you get a sense for how this works.

[A]

Wait.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it. Like, you don't put money in, but it's just steps.

[C]

It. You can walk through the steps with pretend money. So we did the simulator, and he did not send me any links. So when. Oftentimes when you look up romance scams, they tell you, don't send them any money. He never asked me for money. And don't use links that they send to you. I never did either of those things.

[A]

Because people can build a website that looks legit, and they can make it so when you invest money into it, you get money back so that you trust it, and then they get you. Okay. Anyway.

[C]

And you can do that with apps, too. I have learned. So, yeah. So I was like, all right. We tried the simulation. To be honest. It was kind of fun. I. I gotta be. It was fun. It was exciting.

[B]

So it's pretend money, and you're learning how to do the crypto.

[C]

You're learning how you do the exchange. The money pops up, and then it shows you where you're at, and you got this money, and your investment has now increased. And, like, now your pocket of money is bigger. Like, it was kind of exciting and fun.

[A]

Like the game.

[C]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. So I am now like, okay, I kind of get this. I'm starting to understand the terminology and do all that stuff. After we did the simulation, though, now it was, well, don't you want to try it in for real? Like, think about, like, I know. You know, you think about, like, if you put in.

[B]

He gave you the gateway drug.

[C]

He's like, if you put in money and I don't think he even said an amount at first. It was like, if you put in money, you could use this to pay off your student loans, which I have a lot of student loans. You could use it to go on a trip. We should go on a trip. We. And we've now built this connection of trusting, and he's built this sense of this is legit and real again. He's starting to use a lot more relationshipy language, which was a little off putting to me because I'm like, we.

[B]

Really haven't known each other very well.

[A]

Know each other in person.

[C]

We still have not met. So I was like, I don't know how I feel about that.

[B]

Have you talked. Had you talked about meeting or anything?

[C]

Yes. But he was still on his business trip, and now his business trip got extended. What was two weeks.

[B]

How long had it been?

[C]

Oh, it had been like three weeks at this point. Three, four weeks.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And his trip keeps getting extended, and it's a big client, so he has to be there for this. And so eventually he was like, you know, we started. He would joke with me, like, you're getting so good at this crypto stuff. You could take my job. Like, you understand. Like, you're talking about it like I do.

[B]

You know, feeding an unmet need, making you feel so special and so cool. Like, you're so smart. You've got this nailed. Are you ready to do this?

[A]

And if you think he's smart. Oh, that feels good to feel.

[C]

Oh, yeah, I think. Yeah.

[B]

And this guy that you're attracted to is saying it to you, so that feels.

[C]

It's like getting an A on a test.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like, every time he would ask me a question and I would respond, he'd be like, oh, you got that right. Blah, blah. And I was like, oh, yeah, I got it right. I get a star or a sticker or whatever.

[A]

I'm a broken record. But financial independence is so important for safety. It's a part of women's independence and safety and growth and relationships that we tend to overlook because nobody likes to talk about it. And your credit is obviously a headache that is so important to your wellbeing overall. I wish I knew how credit actually worked and how to build credit earlier. But luckily, we get to partner with Ava, which is such an easy way to build your credit. Ava is a credit building app that's designed to work fast and help your credit score where it really matters. So your credit score can start climbing with almost like, zero effort. Instead of a secured card that locks up a deposit and takes weeks. Ava can approve you in five minutes with up to a $2,500 credit limit and no credit check. So basically, you pay your monthly subscriptions like usual with the AVA credit builder card. And AVA reports your on time payments to all major credit bureaus, helping you build solid credit history very quickly. So AVA members improve their scores by an average of 30 points in 30 days. That's amazing. They have over 2 million downloads and it's the highest rated credit building app on trustpilot with the most five star reviews. And AVA can now report your rent, utility and phone bills automatically, even up to 24 months of past payments. So your everyday payments help build your credit faster. Take control of your credit today. Download the AVA app AVA and when you join using our promo code Dating20, you'll get 20% off your first year, monthly or annual. Your choice. Again, grab the AVA app and use our promo code Dating20 so they know you heard it from us. And you'll get 20% off any plan for up to a year. That's promo code dating20. Thanks to Ava. Now go get yourself good credit. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Huge advocates for therapy over here for everyone. Whether you think you need it or not. The new year, it doesn't require a new you, maybe just a less burdened you. And therapy can help. You just have an easier way of identifying what weighs you down, what holds you back. It's an unbiased perspective, a better understanding of your relationships, better understanding of your emotions. It's something you can do for the people in your life. You know, I talk through things with my therapist before I talk through difficult things with with people in my life because it makes those conversations better for everyone. And now, obviously, with the new year, we're all kind of thinking about it. Now's a really wonderful time to get that help. And the reason I love Better Help is because I know people in my personal life who never went to therapy because the schedule didn't work for them. It was too difficult to find someone that fit or it was too expensive. And Better Help was the gateway for them into finding a match. Because it works with your schedule, it's virtual, and it can be affordable. They're very quality therapists. They work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US and BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. It's a short questionnaire. It helps you identify your needs and also it's very easy to switch therapists or to work with your schedule. We have over 30,000 therapists. It's one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] TDD that's betterhelp.com TDD.

[C]

So now we start talking about the relationship, because now he's starting to use the relationship language because he's talking about, again, building a future together and what we could do with our money and going on a trip. And I keep having some doubts, and I think he's sensing that. That, you know, I'm. I'm not quite bought in yet. So he starts talking about children and who do I want children? And blah, blah, blah, and how much he wants children. And he is very set on having children. And part of the problem was, is I didn't date for the first little while that I was here when I moved here because I was having medical issues. And as it turned out, I have a very rare form of cancer. And that cancer, part of the treatment required that I had to have my ovaries removed. So I am actually not able to have children. So the more he keeps talking about having children and how we are going to have children, I was like, I got to say something. Like, I can't. I can't let this go. Like, we are on very different pages. And this would be the first time that I was sharing with a romantic partner my cancer story, and also the first time that I would be sharing with anybody the fact that I cannot physically have children. So very emotional, very difficult thing for me to do. It's the first time I'm doing this. I share it with him, and he gives me the most caring, kind response that you could imagine. Like, it was the, you know, first. Of course, it was addressing that. I'm sorry that this is the case. I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'll be there for you. And my cancer doesn't require chemotherapy or anything. I get, like, a monthly injection. He's like, I'll come with you to your appointments. You know, you don't have to do this alone. I will be here. And if we decide down the road that we want children, there are plenty of other ways to have children. It's totally okay.

[B]

So he's acknowledging, sympathizing and telling you that he'll support you and giving you all the things that. Wow.

[A]

I have a question. I definitely feel like we've had guests before who? When they have something like that. I can't have children. I have a background that, I don't know. Some people wouldn't approve of. It makes it harder to. You have this scarcity mindset of, like, maybe somebody won't want to be with me because of it. Did you have that?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That. I was. The whole. I was so nervous. You know, going through that experience was an incredibly emotional experience. Like, when I went into surgery, it was, hey, we're gonna go in. There are tumors. We are bringing in another specialist to do that part of the surgery. We will determine whether or not we have to take both in all of your ovaries or if we can leave part of it. So going in a little unknowing, right, because you didn't know what. I didn't know what was going to happen. And waking up after surgery and having them say there was nothing we could do. I mean, we. We had to take both. It was a little heartbreaking because even if I was thinking, I don't know if I want kids, it was. There wasn't a decision to be made. The decision was made for me. It was done. I would not be physically able to carry my own children. So as I'm looking and I. Every time I would see a guy who was like, have kids, want kids or whatever, like, I would be like, oh, my gosh, these guys aren't gonna. Nobody's gonna want me if I can't have kids. So telling. Having to tell somebody that is terrifying. Having to tell somebody that you have cancer is this scary. Also, even though I'm like, no, no, I'm fine. Like, I'm okay. I'm. This is livable. I'm gonna live with this. I'm fine. It's still a scary thing to do. And having that. Him be the first time I had to do it, and then doing it and getting this very positive, warm. I want to wrap my arms around you and hold you and let you cry while you process. Like, you couldn't ask for a better response. That, to me, that conversation was a really big, defining trust moment between us. When I started, even not. Not that a red flag wouldn't have still struck me, but, like, I would have been more likely to be like, well, he explained it, because now I've built this, like, look at this wonderful response he gave me in this very caring, considerate response.

[A]

You want it to work with him.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And he made you feel so good about it. So then what happened after that?

[C]

We talked. He talked more about, like, our future and all this stuff. And he kind of dropped the crypto for a little bit and focused just on, you know, again, reinforcing that we could have this great relationship. And now he knows about these things and how much he cares and wants to take care of me and. And not in, like, a overbearing way just to support me. So that went on for, you know, a little while, and then we circled back, like we said earlier, and now.

[B]

We come back to crypto after how long?

[C]

Maybe, maybe a week. Wow. But now the pressure comes back in, and now we're focused on our future and that I should do this to support our future, because now it's not just my future. It's what we're building together.

[A]

So kind of guilting you.

[C]

Yeah. So why don't you. You should invest. Let's try it with real money. It doesn't have to be a lot, but let's do it. And I agree. I'm like, all right. So he has me download the Coinbase app. There is an app called Coinbase Wallet, which I think now is just called Base. Those are legitimate trading platform apps. So those are legitimate apps. And an app called Tickmill. Tickmill is a legitimate company. What we find out is, you know, there's obviously more to that story, but Tickmill itself is a legitimate company. So when you Google them or ChatGPT them, as I searched for each, It's a legit company. Like I said, he never sent me links. I never. I went into the app store myself and downloaded these three apps. I did not share my passwords. I did not share my logins. Every time he had me send him, like, he's like, well, send me a screenshot so I can see what screen you're on. He would be like, but make sure that you scroll down because I don't want to see your account name or I don't want to see the numbers.

[B]

Like, he's making it clear I don't need to see your account.

[C]

Right. So really cautious about. Did he.

[B]

But real quick, after he was so sympathetic about your situation, about your cancer and not being able to have children, did that make you feel like, were you 100% in, or were you still kind of skeptical? Like, I still don't know, but he was really sympathetic, so I think I can trust him.

[C]

Great question. I would say I was all in. There was something in the back of my mind that was like, I still. This is still seems fishy, but I was ignoring it. Like, I was full on ignoring it at this point, like, okay, so femtuition was there.

[B]

We ignored it because he offered that sympathy, and now we appreciate that about him.

[C]

And, like, that idea that, like, I must be overthinking this. It's just my mind being. I'm overthinking. It's just me. Oh, my God, she's nailing it. I'm self sabotaging. Yes. I'm self sabotaging. That's a big one for me. Is like, oh, my gosh, here's this great thing. And I'm so suspicious because I have to watch my dateline that I'm here making up stories. Is it.

[B]

Or am I overthinking? Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. Constant. And even if we realize it is femtuition, sometimes we're like, is that enough to end it?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, shouldn't I wait until there's something really bad?

[C]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[C]

So we go through. We do an initial trade again. It was fun. It was exciting. It was cool to see my money grow and how fast it happens. And, like, it's just this. This kind of almost like a little rush.

[B]

Was there a certain amount that you invested and then, like, you watched that part?

[C]

Yeah, I just did a small amount at this point. So he. We agreed to. To start small. So we started with a thousand dollars. And I was like, all right, fine, I'll do that. Okay, no big deal.

[B]

That seems reasonable.

[A]

And you said he didn't recommend.

[C]

Like, he didn't come right out and give a dollar amount. But he was like, well, let's try. What are you comfortable with? And I was like, well, nothing. Like, can I use. Can I do $10? And.

[B]

But everything you're doing, it's. It's kind of like he's making it sound like it's your idea. He's not asking you for anything. He's basically laying the foundation, saying, oh, you can, but only what you want.

[C]

So we do the trade, and then he shows me how to withdraw my money. So I am actually able to withdraw my money. I take out some of the money, and it goes right back into my personal accounts. And I was like, oh, okay. So at this point, I'm like, well, I haven't given him logins. I haven't given him passwords. He has no access to any of this. I downloaded these apps myself, and I now know how to get my money out. Seems like I don't know what the scam is. Like, I was fully aware of what I was doing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I fully knew there's money being traded Here that is always going to have a potential for something. Like, I'm not completely oblivious to that fact, but I would think through it and I'd be like, okay, I downloaded the apps, so I found them. I have the passwords. He doesn't, he didn't ask for this, so he doesn't have that. So I still have access to that money. So I'm like, so what's the scam? And I, when I would have conversations with people, like the few people that knew that anything was going on, and they'd be like, well, this is the scam. And I was like, but how could it be a scam? Like, here I did this. And then I would come back with my, my little data points of like, but none of this happened. And they'd be like, oh. And I would say, so what's the scam?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they'd be like, well, I don't know what the scam is. And I asked him one time, I was like, why would you do this for somebody you actually have never met? Like, why would you, why would you.

[A]

That's a good question.

[C]

Why would you want to do this? And he's like, well, because it's not just about you. It's about us. It's about our future together. It's about. And there we have again the, the future thought of this is for both of us together mutually, and we're gonna have this wonderful long term relationship. So why wouldn't I do it? Like, I just, I would. Of course somebody would want to help their future wife, but stuff like that would be usually the, the response if I questioned any of it.

[B]

Do you mind sharing how much it grew and how quickly the first one grew?

[C]

We started with a thousand and it grew to, I want to say it almost. It doubled. Oh yeah. Like it doubled. I don't, I just don't remember if it was any more. I know that it. Minimum. Sure.

[A]

So you're feeling good, right? You're like.

[B]

And this is within like a couple weeks or something? Yeah.

[C]

Like, well, like you do the tr. Like it, it, the way that it happened. Like, you do the trade and then it, like it's, it's almost like this little ticker thing goes. And then bam. It, the trade's complete. Here's like, I had to set parameters and all this stuff and then bam. Here's what your balance is now because the trade has happened.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And I, I, I'm so you were.

[B]

Able to see it and you were like, okay, cool. Now it's a Dopamine hit.

[C]

And I may not be. If there's crypto people listening, I may not be explaining that exactly in an ELO or. Or we get it explained way, but that was kind of how I interpret it. And so we keep talking, and he keeps suggesting more money, putting more money in and more money. And he's really hooked on to this student loans piece.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because he knows that that's a big stressor for me. So student loans becomes very focused on, you should do more money so that way you can pay back your student loans.

[B]

Student loans. I'd met.

[C]

I'm like, where do you think I'm getting all this money? Like, I don't understand. I don't have a. I'm not fancy. Like, I don't have a ton of money, like, just laying around for crypto trading. And at one point, there's some concern about, obviously, the job market. Right now, the job market isn't great. I work in an area that is a necessity. Yes. For the company, But I also do some things that it's like, well, could we do with fewer.

[A]

When was this?

[C]

This would have been late summer. Late summer this year? Yeah, this year. So this is fresh. Okay.

[B]

So the last six, eight months, this.

[C]

All just happened starting in 2025 of 2025. Okay. Yeah. All right. So economy's not going well. Job market's not going well. We see the numbers. And he's like, well, I mean, let's be real. You know, your. You are at risk for losing your job. And I was like, well, yeah. So he gave me this whole spiel from a financial standpoint of what that means for me and that my 401k, if the market keeps going the way it's going, my 401k could drop so low that, wow, you know all this stuff. So at one point he's like, well, you should quit your job now. That way you get your full 401k and.

[B]

No. And invest it.

[C]

And I was like, no, now we've hit that. That was a lot. That was a line. And I was like, no, abs. Absolutely not.

[A]

Still have not met him in person.

[C]

Not in person. And I. Exactly. And I made a comment about, like, I have not met you in person. I actually really love my job. I love the people I work with. I would know, like, no, my job.

[B]

Gives me a thousand dollars is one thing, but quitting your job and giving him your whole 401k is a whole nother ball away.

[C]

And I was like. And also, like, there's more job than my 401k. There are so many other things that my job gives me that I would not be willing to give up. Just so I know if you have.

[A]

A job that you like, that is right.

[C]

It's important to you.

[A]

Huge right now. Yeah.

[C]

So he keeps pushing and going around all these other ways of how I could get more money to get more money into the trading. He has now convinced me to add more money from my savings. So I have been putting in more money, and it just keeps growing the amount that I should put in again. He's still on this work trip, and I'm getting really fed up, and I'm like, all right. I'm like, this is. This is just ridiculous. And then all of a sudden, he's coming home. He gives me the flight information, the time, all this stuff. He's coming home. And I'm like, oh, this is great. Finally. I finally get to meet him. I'm so excited to meet him. And we're talking about all these things we're going to go do when he gets home, and he's taking a week off from work so he can spend time with me and getting, you know, so we can do things and stuff like that.

[B]

Because you expressed your frustration with him.

[C]

Yes, I. I didn't. I didn't come right out and be like, are you kidding me? But I had started to be like. When he would make comments about things like, oh, of course. You know, those. Kind of passive, like, oh, of course you're. You're delayed again.

[B]

He felt it.

[C]

Yeah. So now he is coming home. I have again, flight information. I have everything. And he's coming home on a Friday. And on that Thursday before, conversation was kind of inconsistent, which was unusual for us. He, up to this point, was incredibly consistent. Like, I knew he was gonna message me in the morning. I knew he was gonna message me when he came out of his meetings. Like, at this point, he was. He was good about that. Like, he did that stuff. So I knew. And so Thursday before he's coming home on Friday, I'm like, oh, he's. He's got a lot of stuff to close up and whatever. And then Thursday evening rolls around and I get a message and he's frantic. His father, his stepfather has been brought into the emergency room in New York City for a heart attack. He has to get on a plane to New York, and he has to go, of course. And I'm like, huh? And he's pouring out all this information. And, I mean, I'm a good human, so I'm not going to be calling him and be like, oh, I think you're lying.

[A]

Like that.

[C]

You know, I'm not gonna do it.

[A]

Right. But you're in my mind.

[C]

I'm like, this. You were like, yeah, right, Coincidental. Like, I'm trying to be really nice here and be really understanding, because again, I am trying to be kind, but this just. This is fishy. Like, this can't be real. So his responses to me start getting a little inconsistent. He's being very vague. I'm like, well, wait, you're traveling to New York City, so you would be in Eastern time. Why were you messaging me? Or what was. Huh? That doesn't make sense. Like, timing wasn't adding up anymore. Because I'm like, well, gosh, it would have been really. And at one point I was like, it would have been the middle of the night. Like, why are you messaging me at. What would have been the Math.

[B]

A math.

[C]

2:00 clock in the morning, New York City time. Oh, well, he was at the hospital. He stayed overnight with his. His stepfather in case he woke up. He's in the icu.

[A]

It is a good excuse. You can twist it however.

[C]

You can twist it. Yes. All kinds of things.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then he kept telling me, he. I was like, oh, are you staying with your sister? Because his sister lives in New York City. And he's like, no, I'm staying at my house. And I'm like, what? What house?

[A]

What?

[C]

And I'm like, what? He has. I have a house on the upper. What is the Upper east side? Isn't that the fancy. Oh, that's the fancy side of New York. Right? Okay. So, yeah, he's like, from the Upper east side. And I'm like, oh, time out, time out. Time out. You have a what? He's like, oh, I'm sorry I never told you. And I said, okay, well, why don't you send me a picture? I want to see it. I mean. Yeah, you live on the Upper east side. I mean, that's.

[A]

That's pretty.

[C]

I mean, you must be doing even better than I thought you were. Oh, God. And he was like, oh, I'm too tired. And I was like, you're too tired for what? To send me a picture.

[A]

Send me the Zillow link, babe.

[C]

So in my. Right, in my head, I go, this is a man who will literally take pictures of his food. You're telling me that you have a beautiful home on the Upper east side and you don't already have pictures that you would have to go out and Take pictures like that. That doesn't add up. I'm like, no, no, something's really wrong here. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm really suspicious now. Like, I'm not even like, everything coming in, everything he's saying. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. So I'm like, you know what?

[B]

And it makes you think back about everything else, too, and be like, okay, wait.

[C]

So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to try to withdraw some of my money from this account and see what happens, right? And I'm just gonna do it without him because he's with his dad. I don't want to interrupt his care time, so I'm just gonna try it myself. So I go into the app.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

And I do exactly what he told me to do. And the whole app crashes. The app doesn't work. And I'm like, okay, my money must still be there. I guess I just need his help. Maybe I did something wrong. And I'm like, when you say crashes.

[A]

What do you mean?

[C]

Like what? Like, it completely freezes. Like, you can't do anything. You can't click on anything. Nothing's moving. Refresh doesn't help. And I'm like, well, maybe I guess I'm gonna have to tell him. So I tell him what I did, and instead of being kind and sweet, he gets mean and he's mad at me, and he keeps telling me it's because you did it without me. You shouldn't have done this. I don't know what you were. Think you haven't made enough trades yet? You have to have a certain number of trades. This is now going to flag your account for money laundering, and you're going to be in so much trouble. And if Is that.

[B]

How much money are we talking about on this withdrawal that he's losing his.

[C]

Mind about that I tried to take out. I had tried to take out, I think, like, like 500. Like, I wanted to see if it would work. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

You. I think you are able to take out your own. Well, he assured money whenever.

[C]

Yes, he assured me back when we did this and we downloaded the. That I was always in control of my money, that there was never a time where I could not have access to my money. But suddenly now it was all of these things that I couldn't do. And I'm like, huh? Okay. So now I'm panicking. Now I'm like, oh, my God, my money is all in there. What the heck so I'm like, okay, he's going to take care of his dad, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my. Do some more research. So, yes, I go out, I use Google, I use ChatGPT. And it just so happens that in my area, there is a, like, a group of people who are crypto experts who do crypto stuff.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

And one of the gentlemen who kind of leads the group offers, like, crypto information. And he's got, yeah, it's like consulting, and he's got resources and all this stuff available to people. He works with the local FBI, the local police departments on crypto stuff. So I felt like he was, he was pretty trustworthy. So I go and I talk to him and he's like, well, your money's probably gone. This is actually all a scam. He's like, this is actually a very common scam these days. People get scammed all the time because these are, these are actually very sophisticated scams. And he explains how the scam works. And he was pretty much describing my life for the past couple months. And I'm like, oh, my God. And I'm like, but I could, like, but if I, you know, I didn't give him passwords, he's like, okay, you know, you didn't do that. And I said, no, no, I didn't. And I said, so I should be able to go in and maybe I could take the money before he finds out and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, you can try, but chances are your money's already gone.

[A]

Wait, can you walk us through what he told you? Like, I want to hear him the way he would describe this scam so I can try.

[C]

I don't remember.

[A]

Like, yeah, the best.

[C]

Well versed. Sure.

[B]

That basically, layman's terms, right?

[A]

Please, Layman's terms.

[C]

Basically, they fake a story, they put it on a dating app, they create and build a relationship with you. They convince you to invest in this script crypto. They usually have you go into an app that they have. Like, they'll send you a link for an app. They'll send you, you know, whatever, so they can manipulate what actually happens when the money gets there and the money.

[A]

But he didn't do that.

[C]

But what you're seeing is what they want you to see.

[A]

Right. But did he send. I thought you got.

[C]

He didn't. You're right. So this is when I found out.

[B]

The app was still on the App Store. She found it because he created the app.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But I went back to the App Store Because I'm like, maybe something happened and it's no longer there. It's gone. You can't find the app. The app is not in my purchase. Like, it's in. Not in my lists anywhere. That app is gone.

[A]

And that you again said this was an app that you had Googled.

[C]

I had Googled the company.

[A]

The company.

[B]

The Tickmill company.

[C]

Yeah. Tickmill is the company and it is legit. Oh, my God. So when I went to the App Store, it's gone. And I was like, what? What? Oh, my God. So I start ChatGPT. And ChatGPT sounds tells me that, well, if it's not in the App Store, then chances are it was taken down for it was fraudulent, something was wrong with it. Whatever it was probably deleted. Apple found out that it's. That it wasn't legitimate. And I'm like, what do you. What do you mean? The fake. Like there could be a fake app on the App Store. I had no idea.

[B]

Anybody can create an app if you.

[C]

Pay for it and there's no vetting. So the app was gone. So luckily, at one point I took a screenshot and I had at least the developer's name in the screenshot. So I googled the developer name and the developer is a scam. It has been linked with many scams.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

And at this point, my panic is just growing. And so if you go out to Tickmill, you can find Tickmill operates in the uk. Tickmill does not actually operate in the us. You can go anywhere if you look the logo. Everything I had looked just like Tickmill. However, when I started digging a little deeper in Tickmill, I found out that this is not a Tickmill app. They have all their apps listed and this isn't one of them. And this isn't one of them. So now I know Coinbase is real. The Coinbase Wallet or Base, whatever they call it, that is real. Those are both legitimate. But this Tickmill app was an app he created, modeled to look like Tickmill, operate like it would show me things. But basically my money went in there and it was gone before anything could happen with it. So my.

[B]

He catfished you as Tickmill.

[C]

And so as my money was growing, it was him manipulating the app to look like I was actually putting money into a legitimate thing.

[B]

Because if he created the app, he can put whatever he wants.

[C]

He didn't do my logins. No, he had the app itself. And that's where all the money was being stored, was on that app. So all my money was there. And I started Looking into more things, and more scam alerts start coming up, and I'm like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. So I go in, and then, like, I'm gonna make one last attempt to just take it all out. At this point, I feel pretty confident it's not real, but I'm like, one desperate effort. I'm gonna try. And I went in, and the whole app just shut down. It was gone.

[A]

Can you tell us how much money we lost?

[B]

How much did you lose?

[C]

My entire savings, Mary. Yeah.

[B]

Like, thousands and thousands.

[A]

I am so angry.

[B]

You didn't do the 401k thing, but it was your savings, right?

[C]

So now, okay, I have realized my money's gone. The crypto guy was absolutely spot on. It was gone. My God. And he isn't real. And so now I have to deal with not only the. The losing of my money, but the emotional, the heartbreak. This person doesn't even exist. The money, it was almost like, like just a statement of fact. Like, okay, my money's gone. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but, okay, that's a fact. I can move forward. I can take steps. I can go do these things. It was tangible, right? It was. I could make an action plan to address it, allowing myself to be vulnerable and have these feelings for somebody or create a sense of, like, feeling like I was safe, and that's not the environment I came from in my life. So to have allowed somebody past that level of security into my world was harder. Harder for me. Coming to the. The realization that somebody was able to manipulate so effectively my security system that I have put in place for so many years was devastating. You know, even though I knew factually he does not exist. A week later, I was like, I wonder how his dad did in the hospital. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, but he's not real. Why are you thinking of that? Like, this man literally made all that up. And I think the hurt and the anger I felt at myself was more in that than it even. Like, the money sucked. But, like, that was the part where I was like, how dare you? You know better. Like, you've. You've never let somebody pass that wall.

[A]

Like, why did you do it this time?

[C]

You didn't even meet him. And, like, I would in the moment. I remember just sitting in my office, and I was like, I, I. I don't even know what to think, but it was like somebody dumped out all these pieces of a puzzle, and they were slowly putting themselves together. And in My head, everything started coming together until it formed this whole picture, and I just went completely numb. I'm like, I don't know what. My body doesn't know what to do. I don't know what to think. And so I'm like, I message him. And I'm like, you scammed me. Like, you are you. I mean, my language was not. There were a lot of words that I. I don't need to say, but there were a lot of words in there. And. And he was. You know, like I said, he. He threatened the money laundering. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. If you had put more money in, everything would have been fine. Everything was just a denial or. I don't think you know what you're talking about. And I was finally like, I can't. And so I blocked him. I'm like, I'm done. I. You are. You are not a real person. I have lost a lot of money. I don't know what to do. And I feel like my world has just crumbled apart. So I start researching. What do you do? And so I filed multiple scam reports. You do one with the FBI, you do one with the police. You know, there's all this stuff. And because we were on WhatsApp, there is a transcript of our conversation. And so I had to attach that to every report. And every time I did it, it felt so humiliating and so violating that these law enforcement people were going to be reading things that I. And not even, like. I mean, not even, like, weird or. It's nothing I shared that I should be ashamed of, but just details about myself that I'm like, yeah. And every time I had to attach it, I could just feel a part of me, like, just dying inside. Like, I can't believe that I have to share all of this with this private stuff, with. With all these people. I'm also so ashamed. I'm like, oh, my God. I. I fell for a scam. And not only did I fall for it, I fell for it. Like, there was a lot of money here that. That got involved. Why did I do it? You know, I'm angry, I'm upset. I'm blaming myself. Like, at one point, I was like, I just want to go lay on my bed and let the world swallow me up. I can't believe this happened. I can't tell nobody. I don't want anybody to find out about this. And then I think I finally. I think finally I slept. Like, at that point, I hadn't Slept in a long time. I think I finally fell asleep. And I remembered waking up and being like, okay, I have to tell somebody. Like, I have to tell my friends. And the crypto person that I had talked to was so kind and was like, I just want you to know, like, some of the most intelligent people in crypto have been scammed in crypto scams. Like, this is not about you. Please know that. This happens so often. And it is not that you fell for this or that you weren't smart enough or he's like, they manipulate you from a psychological level. They monitor your behavior. They. They have psychology, people that are informing them how to respond to certain things in certain matters.

[A]

People don't realize that this is not one guy in his mom's basement. No, this is an office.

[B]

This is a group of individuals. Each other traffic other people's money.

[C]

And I think I had looked it up right after I talked to him. And people from just. The US Lost billions in crypto scams last year. So it was just really intense. And I was like, all right, I'm going to tell my friends. So I told my friends, and I was embarrassed. Like, to this day, I've never listed. The only people who actually know the final dollar amount are the police. It's. You know, I'm like, I haven't shared it, but my friends, I have the most wonderful group of women around me who. I mean, they were checking in on me multiple times a day. The earth was not swallowing me up on their watch. Like, that was not gonna happen. They were, you know, what can we do? What do we need to do right now? Do we need to do something financially? Do we need to. You know, One of my friends flew out to spend the weekend with me because the gentleman had promised we were gonna go to this one restaurant, and it's this very romantic restaurant here. And my friend flew out here to take me to that restaurant.

[A]

And our friends are our soulmates, right?

[B]

That is like the freaking best ever.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, these guys, I mean, I get emotional thinking about it. I mean, these guys, they. They weren't letting me face this by myself. And just an amazing group of intelligent, accomplished women. And there was never a comment about, why did you do this? Or why would you. Like, there was, we love you, and we're here, and we're gonna do whatever we need to.

[B]

I'm PMSing this week, and I'm gonna cry.

[C]

That is the.

[B]

I love that so much.

[C]

Yeah, it was. It was so meaningful, though, to know I have that in my life. Especially in such a dark room.

[B]

I'm so grateful. Shout out to your friend.

[C]

Yeah, they helped me come in it from a. Okay, this sucks. But I have survived every crisis so far. I will survive this one. And I have the support that I need to do that. And I will say, they did try to scam me again. So one thing that most people don't know is after a crypto, especially romance scams, they will actually come back and try to scam you again. I don't use WhatsApp.

[B]

The audacity.

[C]

I don't use WhatsApp. Right. Obviously, this was the first time I had ever used it. And probably about four weeks after this happened, I get a message from a woman telling me that she got scammed out of all this money. And my number, my phone number was also included in the report that this. This tech person gave her. And I said, that's interesting. Really? And she said, yeah. And I said, well, so let me ask you. Why would you reach out to me on WhatsApp and not call me or text me? Like, if you. If you have my number, why would you do that? Oh, well, she had all these things. I said, okay. So you have a tech guy, huh? Yeah. Interesting. What's his name?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And she's like, he goes by code name, blah, blah. I'm like, this isn't a James Bond movie. I want to hear his name. And she's honestly, John.

[B]

Mike.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Freaking code.

[C]

So she's giving me all this stuff, and I'm just like, I know what this is. You guys are the only one. The scammer would have been the only one reaching out to me on WhatsApp. Nobody else. Wow. And so she's like, well, he can get us our money back. And I was like, oh, how? Because that's really funny. Because she's like, well, they can do this. And she started using crypto terms. And I'm like, well, see, here's the problem is I actually learned a little bit about crypto, and I know the terms. And what you're using, you're not using it accurately. So thank you, but no, thank you. Nobody can actually recover our money. We learned that when I talked to the FBI, when I talked to the police, and when I talked to the crypto guy. Nobody can recover.

[A]

And I'll let the. I'll give them another call perhaps. But yeah, just to let them know about this conversation.

[C]

And so then I wonder if that.

[A]

Scam was going to be just paying him. Like, if she was.

[C]

Yeah, that's what she was trying to get me to do with. To pay for him to help us recover our money.

[A]

Right, right, right. Okay.

[C]

So that is, that is the follow up scam. But like when you Google, when you go out and Google romance scams, they mostly talk about like somebody asking you to send the money because they need money for something or an investment or them sharing links for you to share money on. These links. Yeah. But I didn't do either of those. So here I am.

[B]

So it made you feel like you were doing things right?

[C]

I was like, I can't. This.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This isn't a scam because I didn't do it that way. Nothing, nothing indicated to me that somebody could actually manufacture an entire environment in which I could be scammed out of a lot of money. I had no idea that fake apps existed. I, I didn't, you know.

[B]

Well, it's, it's new too.

[C]

The scams are so sophisticated. Like Hannah said, these are people designing this in an office. Right. These are multiple people. Yes. Doing this as a, this is their job is to scam.

[A]

And I also, to take it a step further. We talked about this on our Patreon. I read an article about a man who was trafficked. He responded to a job posting and thought he got a job, Interviewed for a job, virtually moved to the country which was bordering his country and suddenly was being trafficked into doing this. So he talks about, I scammed a woman because I was unable to leave. I couldn't get out.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So even the scammers are sometimes victims. And it's like this crazy industry.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's really, really wild. And that's why it's so amazing that you're here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And talking about it.

[C]

I decided after again, the support from my friends and talking with my therapist, of course, I said, you know what, if I stay quiet, nobody learns about what happened to me. And I googled romance scams and it didn't really talk about this. So if I stay quiet, other women are not going to know about this. If I tell somebody and I tell people, I risk being embarrassed. But I could help somebody. And to me that's more important because if I can help somebody from not going through that experience and having the moment when you realize that everything was a scam and everything has collapsed. Like, if I can prevent somebody else from having to go through that, I'm going to. And I found a quote somewhere, I don't remember where it was. And it said, silence protects the scammers. Talking about it protects everyone. And it Was something. Something to. I forget what the. The actual quote was, but it really was a. It was meaningful to me to be like, oh, my gosh, you're right. So I started reaching out. I reached out to your podcast. I reached out to the crypto guy to say, hey, is there somewhere I can at least post my lessons learned so people can see them? And I wrote an abbreviated version of my story and posted it on my social media. And you'd be surprised. A number of people reached out to me and were like, I got scammed, too. But I just didn't want to say anything because it's embarrassing and because it's embarrassing.

[A]

Well, I was going to ask, did it help with your embarrassment to put it public? Wow.

[C]

Exactly. It did. Because I felt like, you know what? The people who truly know me, you know, that I am an intelligent woman. I'm not just going to fall for something like, clearly this had to be something very sophisticated and something built enough legitimacy that I would believe it again for somebody who's naturally very suspicious for me to believe that meant something. So I was like, those people will know. And if not, I at least told people. And I cannot tell you how many people have told me. I did not know there could be fake apps on the App Store. Yes. Yep. Everybody.

[B]

Because you don't. You're like, how do you create an app? Not a lot of people know how to create an app. So you're like, can you do that? Like, you need, like, to show a. Like a.

[C]

Right.

[B]

This license or something. Like, how does this go?

[A]

Also, the people who say they're too smart for getting scammed are the people who are the most vulnerable.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

I mean, you know, one. You can live with that. You can live with somebody thinking something like that about you, especially if. If 10 other people for every one person that judges you.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Is helped and learns more. But I just. I worry about them, right? Like, I genuinely worry about the people who are like, oh, my God.

[C]

Right. That would never happen to me. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Exactly. I will be the first to admit every time I'd watch a documentary, I'd be like, that would never happen to me. And I would be judgy. Right. In my head, I would be really like, why would you fall for that? Or, why would you do that? But now I watch these things, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I could totally. Yeah, no, I. I could see you. Why you would think that. Or, you know, I have this whole different perspective on how sympathy. Yes. Yes. I. You Know somebody. There was one per. I've only had one person, really, that knows about this that has been a little judgy and been like, why did you do it? And I'm like, don't judge it till you're there. Like you. On the outside, it looks very clear cut. But keep in mind, you're looking at it from the end, right? You now know the person scammed. Like, and we're watching these shows, we know what the show is about. Like, I know you got scammed. So it's easy for me to be like, well, why would you believe that? But then thinking of it in the moment, in the heat of the moment, things are happening, emotions are happening. It's easy to get wrapped up in that or to, to think something and. And have your mind go in a certain direction. And it definitely has changed my identity because I've been like, oh my gosh, here I am. This, like, I can conquer anything. I got this. You know, no one's scamming me. And now that I have that, I'm humbled. Just because I passed the fishing check at my company doesn't mean that I cannot be scammed. You know, I just, I have the. Just the realization that we are all human and we are all. We're built to. To have connection and to have these interactions and have our emotions impact us. And we. Judging them doesn't do us any good. And somebody. And I can't remember who it was or what resource I was looking at, but they were like, they actually have people who specialize in human behavior and psychology who support scammer scripts. They help them write what to say and how to respond and do that, to be able to prey on people.

[A]

How do you live with yourself?

[C]

Right.

[A]

If that's how you make your living, I mean, that's just so gross.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We didn't talk about the FaceTime. That's so interesting.

[C]

Oh, so what they did learn in looking back at the FaceTime, the fact that it was dim, the fact that he was wearing a baseball hat, the fact that he kept playing with something on the table and that we only talked for a few minutes. I was also tired. He knew I was tired. It was late in the night. When I thought back to it, I went, wait a minute. Did he actually look me straight in the. Like, did he actually look straight on for long enough for me to go, oh, yeah, that's him? Or did I just. Everything aligned and I was tired and I was like, oh, yeah, that was him.

[A]

And he looked enough like him. Yeah, could be an actor. Right?

[C]

Yeah. Somebody said they could use filters too. On certain apps and things you have, there's filters that people could put on during. So they could even. Yeah.

[A]

And you don't. Right.

[C]

So I tell everybody, if you're going to download an app, triple check it. Like, don't just download it blindly just because you saw it somewhere. Like double, like, check out. And everyone's like, but what do I look at first? Look at reviews. I'm like, look at how many reviews there are. There aren't a lot of reviews. That's a sign. If you read the reviews and they seem like bots are writing them or they don't seem relevant, like real grammar, like, review that. Look at that. It's also. Crypto is a very fast paced.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Process overall. And the scammer will feed on that pressure to get you to make an impulsive decision. And if you look it up, they will tell you that crypto, like, if you Google it, they will talk about crypto being a fast paced kind of thing.

[A]

Well, the best lies are closest to the truth. And that's why crypto is. I mean, it's so controversial because it lends itself to scams so easily. Is it a thing that can be great? Sure. But.

[C]

Well, and there's so few regulations. Like, as I went back and remember as the pieces were coming together for me, I remember like, I was like, wait, I remember him making a comment that I don't remember what it was now, but I remembered blowing it off and being like, whatever. Just a comment he said in passing because, oh, the bank wants to know why you're taking out this much money. You know, oh, whatever. But then I thought about it through the lens of regulations and moving over to crypto and. And I went, oh, that was probably why he said that. It probably did. He made it natural. So it seemed like the bank's probably going to ask you some questions, but that's just normal. Yeah. You're just withdrawing a lot of money when in reality they're asking you those questions because they are trying to also determine if what you're doing is legitimate.

[A]

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. I'm glad you talked about the labor of having to like, go through reporting this.

[C]

Oh, my gosh, yes.

[A]

You know, there's so much emotional labor to be a victim of something beyond.

[B]

Hannah, you make a good point when you say that. I love when you say that. Because it's true.

[A]

It's work.

[B]

To report it, you have to relive it.

[C]

Yes. And then they like, when I got the police report, they're like, it was. So you fill everything out online, right? Which, you know, you submit all your stuff and then they submit something to you again online and they're like, oh, by the way, we're not investigating this because there's no point, but here's your police number or your report number and it's like, oh, thank you. And you know. Yeah, it's, it's.

[A]

And it's still good that you did it because it could help a future case.

[C]

Right. But. But it's to you to get that. Yeah. That email is like, yeah, well, this isn't. We aren't going to do anything with this, but thanks for telling us. It felt so, like, I don't even know what word I want, but it felt just dismissive.

[A]

It's like, yeah, dismissive. Did you ever feel like you wanted revenge?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You wanted to find out more about him?

[C]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Or her or them. We don't know who it is.

[C]

I don't even know.

[B]

Did you take any steps towards that?

[C]

No, because.

[B]

Good. That's great. Because that would probably be illegal to do your own thing.

[C]

I was like, no, I wanted to, but I'm like, you know what, though? Like, you don't. I watch shows all the time and I'm like, oh, I could do that. No, I couldn't. Like, the reality is I couldn't do it. Like, I don't know how to do these things. And they, you know, they make it look, you know, in a show, like, like it's so easy to track whose IP address they used or, you know, it's not. So I'm like, I. I wouldn't even try. I wouldn't even begin to know or, you know, know where to begin. But even at first, as much revenge as I wanted, and I wanted this person to really get it, I thought about it. And then to your point, how much energy can I put? I can't do anything. The money is gone. There is nothing that is going to satisfy that. That for me. And so putting the energy into thinking, like, what could I do? I was like, that just wastes my time. You know, it doesn't hurt him. He's probably off scamming somebody else. Which is interesting because his pictures keep showing up in dating apps. I did forgot to mention that I've actually reported him his profile multiple times. The last time they told me they will not do anything about it, even though I sent them pictures of. I'm like, here he is under this name. Here Is the same pictures under this name and pictures under this name. And I.

[A]

Which apps is it? Hinge and Bumble.

[C]

It was Hinge and Bumble. Facebook was the one that said they won't do anything.

[B]

Hinge, I was gonna ask you about Facebook.

[C]

Facebook was the one who. I reported it with the multiple pictures. And I said, here is this same.

[B]

It's the same guy.

[C]

You can tell different backgrounds, but the same man. And different ages, different names, but they're all, again, the same person. And Facebook said they wouldn't do anything about it. Hinge. To my knowledge, I think they did remove him. He hasn't shown up again on Hinge.

[A]

You can't know for sure, but that's good.

[C]

Hinge. Hinge.

[A]

Good job, Facebook. We're not thrilled with you.

[B]

Right.

[C]

He hasn't come up on anything.

[B]

But let me tell you something. You use a snippet of a video sound that does not belong to you, and they will block you for a whole year and demonetize you to punish you.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're.

[A]

They're not. That I have experience scanning for.

[B]

It's stupid.

[A]

You know, things that are illegal is not ideal.

[C]

Yeah. I was like, what more do you need? Like, I'm showing you the same guy in the same pictures with all these different names. I'm telling you, he scammed me. I have a police report that says it, and you won't do anything about it. Yeah. It's kind of surprising, but, man. Yeah, man.

[A]

Well, thank you for coming and telling us. How are you doing now? I hope your health is okay.

[C]

Oh, yes, I am good. I. My health is good. Have an amazing medical team and doctors that are just phenomenal.

[A]

And what a. I have. I want to use some bad words to think about the person that found out about what you were going through this year.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And was like, I'm going to use that. This is a great person. Right. To target.

[C]

I hate it. Yeah. So, no, I'm. I'm doing wonderfully. I am such a fortunate person. I have just an amazing group of friends and family who have shown me who they really are. You know, these are the times where you get to learn who everyone is. And I have learned that I.

[B]

You get to figure out who's going to show up for you.

[C]

Yeah. And I have surrounded myself with some wonderful people. I am a take charge person. So I have a plan to, you know, recover. Not I can't recover the money, but make the money back and, you know, put it back in my savings account and that kind of Thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, so I. I have a strategy for that, and I'm just glad that 2025 is now over.

[A]

It's a new year. New year. Right. And we can just focus on 2026.

[C]

Holy crap.

[B]

Okay, so first of all, what we were talking about at the beginning with her being having this perspective as a true crime girl, it made her even more vulnerable.

[A]

Yeah. Because I. I relate to that. When I started doing this podcast, I started questioning when I would have doubts in dating and relationship because I was like, is it just because I'm taking in so many stories that make me more anxious? And I think she.

[B]

It's almost like you overcompensate.

[A]

Yeah. She was like, I'm sabotaging. I am so into true crime that I am probably just sabotaging a good thing.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just being crazy because I just, like. I just like true crime stuff. And so not everything is a true crime. So she overcompensated.

[A]

Almost. And it also makes you feel smart, like you're like, I'm not gonna get scammed because I'm a true crime girl.

[B]

This can't happen.

[A]

I know what's going on.

[B]

I know what to look for.

[A]

So I feel like, to be fair.

[B]

She did, because she wasn't opening any links from him. She found the app on her own. He never asked her to send money. She felt like she was in control. But also, these scam artists aren't professionals, but these actually genuinely were professional scam artists.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, you mean like dog. We always say dogfish are like pros, but these are actually pros. This is what they do for a living. And there's an industry, like, these people have templates written by psychologists, and they build them out with a team so that it's just a.

[B]

They know how to manipulate you.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, we talked about it with her, but there's so much that goes into these, and I encourage everyone to research them. We did an episode on Patreon about. What's it called again?

[C]

Pig.

[A]

Pig Butchering.

[B]

Butchering.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Where they fatten the pig and fatten the pig, and then when the. When it comes to the final slaughter, they have as much of your money as they can get, as much of.

[A]

Your trust as they can get. I mean, it's.

[B]

And your trust.

[A]

It's bonkers.

[B]

The romance scam. The. We're talking about the crypto love bombing.

[A]

Well, we should go through some signs of that. This is not a comprehensive list, but let's just Kind of rapid fire signs of a financial crypto scam. I think one of the big ones that comes up consistently is that they have a tragic backstory.

[B]

Yeah, that's a, that's a common one.

[A]

He did. And I also was wondering, I wonder how much of her social media is public because she talked a lot about how he would say things that she had in common with him before.

[B]

Before they knew because he had. That was a good point you made. You just made. Because I wondered like, did she share.

[A]

That her father passed of COVID on social media and then he was able to make up the story about his wife? Like, I imagine they do their research on you, so if it's too good.

[B]

Moving to private channels like the WhatsApp.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Red freaking flag.

[A]

Signal is another one as well. Signal is like a very.

[B]

Because it's encrypted.

[A]

Encrypted. And, and it's funny, I joined it for. Honestly, it was probably a scam that I was like, let me just see if this is real. But I knew, hey, who knows? I could have followed in for it. My friend got a notification, I guess that I was joining Signal and he's a crypto guy and he was like, hey, why are you joining this? The only time people I know that join this is usually for scams, unless they're in crypto. And I was like, oh, well, yeah, you got me. Yeah, so don't do that.

[B]

And the. What was the other thing? Oh, rapid relationship growth where they are able to. In this case, I don't think it was rapid, but I do think that when it came to the emotional side of it, the, the romance, the romantical feeling of, oh, I really like this guy and he really, he knew everything about me and he asked questions about me. And that. That's some of what these professionals do is they know how to get you to trust them and that is to ask you about you. Not to get you to trust them, but it's so that you feel safe that they're asking about you.

[A]

Behavior tracking. She mentioned once they learn about you, they feed into that the future promises. The fake fantasies that he was delivering.

[C]

For her just builds the world.

[A]

And obviously this is a red flag. They didn't meet. He was making it very hard.

[B]

The pressure, the excuses of not being able to meet and then the coincidence of, oh, I can't meet you at this time all of a sudden or whatever. And the really. The dimly lit video chat where she couldn't really see him and he was fidgety and yeah, that Kind of stuff.

[A]

I also, this didn't happen here, but celebrity scam, celebrity endorsements, often some financial scams start with somebody thinking they're talking to someone who is a celebrity.

[B]

Yes, that's very true. Oh, but it's the emotional thing for me because if someone gets you in your heartstrings, it's those me too moments that create that sense of trust, that sense of connection, that bond. And I think she just was the ultimate victim. And it really sucks.

[C]

Sucks.

[A]

It's so true. And I'm glad she talked about the way he tried to scam her again. I laugh because it's so crazy and I didn't know that that was so common, but that was great information.

[B]

But what's the worst thing you say is.

[A]

No, well, exactly. That's the point. They might as well.

[B]

They could totally do it again.

[A]

So that's.

[B]

And then also you're thinking, well, there's no way this is going to happen to me again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, and so I also googled just real quick when we were talking about like how to write report crypto scams. And just real quick it says the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint center, which that is something that you can do. And again, they don't immediately investigate it. But it's always important to make a report of that because if enough people do, then they can start creating the drawing those lines and connecting those points to one another. The FTC. So report fraud, ftc.gov and your state's attorney general and relevant financial regulators like the SEC and whatever exchange you use to get and so that you can try and get your funds back. But that's not super common.

[A]

I know. Okay, that's really helpful. I mean, if anybody else has experience similar to this, we're so open to hearing your story, whether you just want to share it on Patreon or social media or if you do ever want to submit a story then. Or any dogfish story, email us investigatehedatingdetectivespodcast.com and put in the subject something about your story. Yes. Thank you, mackenzie. I see you smiling. I got the email right.

[C]

I was like, nailed it.

[A]

Nailed it. I also just going back to the very beginning because I think this can apply to other manipulation, just other experiences. It doesn't just have to be a scam like this. When she said he must know things that I don't. When she was feeling that way at the initial conversation, she was just kind of. I just related so much to that experience of going into a relationship being like Starry eyed and thinking the world of them and just kind of assuming that they are probably superior to you. And I think that's so common. I don't know why we all are so insecure. But I just want us to build up our security so that if we don't know something, we, we. It doesn't mean that we're not as smart. It just means that we don't know that one thing.

[B]

True intelligence actually comes from people saying, you know, I don't know that.

[C]

Right?

[B]

What is the answer to that? And being willing to say that out loud. What is the answer to this? I don't know. Let me find out.

[C]

Right?

[A]

And they don't know any more than we do. Even if they know more about a subject. Like I'm talking broad. You know everything you need to know in order to protect yourself and trust yourself. And I just don't. I wish we could all get better at not falling for these big talkers because I'm just so guilty of it too. It's so easy to do.

[C]

They're so good at it though.

[B]

There's nothing wrong with you. They are just good at it.

[A]

They're good at it. And we look for people. Like I remember in college dating someone who I thought was really smart because it made me feel smart and I was insecure about being smart. You know what I mean? Like they just. You know what you're looking for and you build that up for yourself. And that's human.

[B]

So I'm thank. I'm so grateful for Mary for sharing her story. And if you have something similar, send it over. We want to know it.

[A]

If you have safety tips or. Or information that you feel like would be helpful or just support for Mary, we'll pass it along to her.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

And come to Patreon so we can chat more.

[B]

You'll love the Patreon. I love our group of Patreon. It's so cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, well again, happy New year. Our New Year's resolution is basically don't trust anybody. No, I'm kidding.

[C]

Except yourself.

[B]

Our New Year's resolution is trust your femme tuition.

[A]

Yep. Trust your femme tuition.

[C]

And dump.

[A]

Dump him.

[C]

Dump him. Hey.

[B]

Ain't cute. He's just tall girl. Dump him.

[A]

Oh my God. We love you guys so much. And 2026 is gonna be amazing. Especially for Mary. She really went through it in 2025.

[B]

Yeah, she's grateful for a new year. So anyways, as always, trust your. Sam.