The Cult Was Just the Beginning: Part 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives

Episode: The Cult Was Just the Beginning: Part 1
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (A), Hanna Anderson (B)
Guest: Abby (C)
Date: April 6, 2026
Podcast Network: Dear Media

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the early life and formative experiences of Abby, who grew up in a high-control religious cultic environment—specifically the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). The episode traces Abby’s journey from childhood indoctrination, family control, and isolation to the beginning of her adult life and the circumstances that “primed” her for a later abusive relationship. The tone balances gravity, empathy, and humor, with thoughtful, candid reflections from Abby and insightful commentary from the hosts.

Main Theme:
How a cult upbringing—marked by obedience, suppression of self, and patriarchal control—can create lifelong vulnerabilities to manipulation and unhealthy relationships.

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Background: What is IBLP? (02:17–05:56)

• Hosts explain IBLP: Founded in the 1960s by Bill Gothard, the Institute in Basic Life Principles teaches strict fundamentalist Christian principles that dictate every aspect of members' lives, from interpersonal relationships to finances and dress codes.
• Hierarchy and control:
  • God → Men → Women & Children; strict obedience is a moral requirement.
  • “Questioning authority is very discouraged. It’s like a moral requirement that you obey and it extends into every single aspect of your life.” – Mackenzie (03:38)
• Educational suppression:
  • Women are steered solely toward being wives and mothers; independent thought and academic interests are discouraged.
  • The Advanced Training Institute (ATI) provides homeschooling materials focused only on reinforcing cult doctrine.
• Abuse and scandal:
  • Founder Bill Gothard resigned in 2014 after 34 women accused him of sexual harassment and molestation. Lawsuits were dismissed due to statute of limitations.
• Connection to dating manipulation:
  • Mackenzie draws parallels between cult indoctrination and the “dogfish” (romantic con artist) manipulation they address on the show: “It’s like the same psychological manipulation.” (02:17–02:43)

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Abby’s Early Life in the Cult (07:01–13:09, 14:33–22:22)

Family & Indoctrination

• Abby is one of seven children; her parents converted from Catholicism to evangelicalism separately before marrying (father was 29, mother was 19).
• Early marriage and childbirth, mother’s isolation from biological family; frequent moving for her father’s “God-driven” pastoral jobs.
• Extreme geographic isolation: At age three the family moves to a remote, English-speaking town far from any relatives, compounding social and cultural isolation.

Cult Structure & Control (14:36–20:39)

• The IBLP “umbrella” model: God, church, husband, wife, children—placing Abby and siblings at the bottom.
• Absolute paternal authority; dissent or negative emotion not tolerated.
• “Any sign of not being happy, being upset… was met with a lot of anger and punishment. There was no room for… You had to be enthusiastic.” – Abby (16:13–16:28)
• The doctrine of “joyful countenance”: outward cheerfulness is compulsory; negative feelings are deemed sinful and the root of health problems.

Education & Gender Roles (17:45–19:59)

• Required homeschooling for girls, using cult materials; women not allowed to work.
• Abby’s homeschooling program is described as “woefully inadequate,” though her mother ensures minimum state requirements.
• Exceptionally high academic standards enforced only for external validation, not for girls’ future prospects.
• “Any education beyond what the province required was not necessary—and actually frowned upon for me, for a woman.” – Abby (19:48–19:59)

Emotional Impact: Compliance and Survival (20:39–29:19)

• Laura learns compliance means safety, questioning leads to punishment, withdrawal, and loneliness.
• “There was no unconditional love—that was not a thing. I had to earn it.” (27:02)
• Early emotional experiences: Hiding in closets, disconnection from emotion, early fantasies of freedom (riding a horse by the window).

First Steps Out: Seeking Independence (29:19–35:31)

• At 18, negotiates attending a Bible school in Costa Rica—her first taste of autonomy and different spiritual practice.
• Upon returning, is quickly re-enmeshed in family caretaking (mother’s injury, housework) and must fight for the smallest steps toward independence (trying to move out at 22).

Notable Quote

• “On New Year’s Eve... I pack up my car... and I leave and I move out and I never go back.” (35:31)

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Adult Life & New Vulnerabilities (36:02–44:44)

After “the umbrella”: Alone, Unprepared & Isolated

• Living alone for the first time; praised outwardly but internally deeply lonely and disconnected.
• Work environment becomes unsafe: Abby is manipulated and assaulted by her 42-year-old supervisor at age 22, with no skills or scripts to say no or resist, a direct result of her upbringing.
  • “I don’t know how to say no. I was never taught how to say no.” (37:18)
• Family blames her for abuse due to “leaving the umbrella of protection” and makes the experience more traumatic.

Survival and Emotional Fallout

• To cope, she becomes extremely achievement-focused (“If I do stuff, that’s how I earn love”), further suppressing her true self.
• Becomes increasingly involved at church in a non-denominational setting, but begins to question and dismantle her faith, driven by witnessing ongoing harm and exclusion, especially toward LGBTQ+ community:
  • “I started to really take everything apart. […] There is nothing in me that lines up with this treatment of people.” (61:38–62:49)

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Meeting Her Future Husband (46:10–53:51)

Meeting Caleb

• Meets Caleb at church “Survivor nights”, an ex-military man recently relocated to the area.
• Bond over large families, homeschooling, religious backgrounds; he presents as charismatic and confident—qualities Abby feels she lacks.
  • “When you’re somebody that has lost their confidence…to meet someone who’s just so confident…that’s so cool. And I felt like…willing to talk to you and be very connected…” (47:29–47:35)
• Relationship fast-tracks during COVID isolation; he moves into her apartment, then the two become inseparable.

Early Red Flags

• Caleb games all day, does not support Abby’s workload or help at home, frequently has financial and car troubles (she ends up buying a car for him).
  • “There wasn’t a lot of support with everything I was juggling. But again—it’s new, I don’t expect support. I’ve never gotten support. Why would I have that?” (55:25)
• Financial dependency patterns begin early.

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Engagement and Family Estrangement (56:11–75:55)

Engagement & Fast-Tracked Commitment

• They have sex (“the first time it was consensual…very disappointing”)—this is, per ingrained beliefs, tantamount to a marriage commitment.
  • “Before anything happens we have this very intense conversation of like, if we cross this line… we are getting married.” (57:19)
• Caleb proposes (in an anticlimactic, impromptu way) three months after dating.

Community Loss & Religious Deconstruction

• Abby leaves her church job, continues her faith deconstruction, loses almost all previous support systems.
• Family becomes more critical and distant in response to her choices, compounded by their ongoing lack of understanding and support.

Family Trauma Revealed

• During this period, Abby and her sister discover that, as a child, their parents left Abby with a known pedophile, despite other safe options.
  • “That comes out that my parents knew…they chose to leave me with him.” (67:45–68:15)
  • Caleb confronts Abby's parents—this act brings Abby closer to him as the only person who “defended” her.

Wedding: Isolation, Sunk-Cost, and Compliance

• Abby plans to marry Caleb during a family trip to his province, with his family supporting the logistics; her own family is excluded (she only notifies them two weeks in advance).
• The day before the wedding, Abby briefly considers calling it off, but feels trapped—no money, no friends or safe exits, alone in another province.
  • “I have the thought, how do I leave?…I have no way out. This is my option. This is what I’m doing.” (75:02–75:16)

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Marriage & Immediate Aftermath (76:02–77:22)

• Ceremony is traditional and religious against Abby's wishes; the message: “You can pray and love someone into changing.”
  • “Which I’m listening to that going, no, you can’t. That’s not how that works.” – Abby (76:22)
• Marriage is followed by rapid behavioral changes in Caleb: he becomes emotionally distant and disengaged almost immediately.

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Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Cult Indoctrination:
  • "Every aspect of your life…has to follow a set of Biblical principles." – Mackenzie (03:13)
  • “Any sign of not being happy…was met with a lot of anger and punishment. There was no room for... you had to be enthusiastic at all times.” – Abby (16:13–16:28)
• On Isolation:
  • “We were very far away from everything. We were 13 hours away from any relatives... we are a French Canadian family…nobody could really communicate.” – Abby (10:24)
• On Not Being Taught Assertiveness:
  • “I don’t know how to say no. I was never taught how to say no.” – Abby (37:18)
• On Family Betrayal:
  • “My parents knew and they had options…they chose to leave me with him.” – Abby (67:45–68:15)
• On the Sunk Cost in Marriage:
  • “I have the thought, how do I leave?…I have no way out. This is my option.” – Abby (75:02–75:16)

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Important Timestamps

• IBLP Background: 02:17–05:56
• Abby’s Childhood & Cult Indoctrination: 07:01–13:09, 14:33–22:22
• Leaving Home & Early Adult Independence: 29:19–35:31
• Workplace Abuse: 36:02–44:44
• Meeting Caleb: 46:10–53:51
• Red Flags & Engagement: 55:25–59:52
• Faith Deconstruction & Family Trauma: 61:34–68:28
• Wedding & Final Estrangement: 70:10–77:22

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Language & Tone

• Language: Honest, direct yet nuanced; moments of humor surface as a coping mechanism and camaraderie between hosts and guest.
• Tone: Compassionate, validating, occasionally irreverent in the face of trauma. The hosts maintain an open, safe space, with Mackenzie often providing validation and Hanna keeping the tone dynamic.

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Conclusion

This episode thoroughly sets the stage for the next part of Abby’s story, illustrating how the doctrines and emotional deprivation of her upbringing made her vulnerable to further manipulation and abusive “dogfish” relationships. The hosts skillfully underline the parallels between cult indoctrination and romantic coercion, providing listeners with both practical caution and empathetic understanding.

Next Week:
Part two will explore how these patterns played out in Abby’s marriage and the specifics of the “dogfishery” in her later adult life.

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For Support:
If you recognize these patterns in your life or someone else’s, the hosts encourage reaching out to resources like the National Domestic Violence Hotline [phone]).

Contact/Share Your Story:
The hosts welcome listener stories at [e-mail]

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This summary covers all key discussion points, insights, and thematic content up to the close of the episode, omitting advertisements and administrative sections.

Transcript

[A]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-777, 233 for support.

[B]

Happy Dating Detectives Monday. Hi, Hannah.

[A]

Hi, mackenzie. Oh, do we have a story today?

[B]

Oh, y', all, it's crazy. It's a very, very interesting topic that we've talked a little bit about on our podcast before. But before we get into it, I always like to start our episode with gratitude. Thank you so much for being here for supporting the Dating Detectives. We're coming up on our three year anniversary, by the way.

[C]

Insane.

[A]

We're almost out of those terrible twos, baby.

[B]

And if it wasn't for you guys, we wouldn't be here. So we appreciate all of you who have shared and built this, this community and really encouraged and inspired other people and encouraged and inspired us. And again, we're grateful for the support. So just wanted to remind you that we really, really appreciate you. So thank you. Thank you for joining the Patreon. That really helps us too.

[A]

Yeah. And also when you send your stories, today's guest, her name is Abby, is a great example of someone who she'll open with saying, a lot of this story I thought was normal, but it's not. And I think a lot of you sometimes don't feel ready to share a story or like maybe it's not Dating Detectives worthy. But we are so open to anything. Even if you don't think it's a clear dogfish story, maybe we'll read it on Patreon. Maybe there is something so important about it that we want to share it. So [e-mail] is where you share your stories. And today we have a cult story trigger warning.

[B]

Cult, religious, cult, mental, emotional abuse. So just a little things that stuff coming out that might really, that might really hurt or be triggering. So just.

[A]

But yeah, so we wanted to give you a little preface about the cult that Abby was raised in before we start. And there's so many parallels between the way a cult indoctrinates people and the way that dogfish can essentially indoctrinate people. And I find that fascinating. It's like the same psychological Manipulation. So I'll, I'll just get into a little background on this cult and just jump in. Mackenzie as well.

[B]

Yeah, you'll. I think a lot of you might have my. Yeah, it'll be familiar to you.

[A]

I hadn't heard of the name, but then when she started getting into it, I was like, oh, yeah, I know this one. So it was. She was part of the institute in basic life principles, iblp. And the most famous way you might recognize it is the show 19 Kids and Counting. The Duggars were also a part of IBLP. That's the show where they had like 19 kids and counting.

[B]

It was on TLC like it was a whole big thing.

[A]

Right. Long history of IBLP before that. So it was founded in the 60s by a man named Bill Gothard. It's rooted in very strict fundamentalists interpretation of Christianity. So basically, at its core, iblp, it teaches every aspect of your life. Relationships, finances, how to dress. Everything you do has to follow a set of biblical principles.

[B]

Like a hierarchy.

[A]

Yes, very into hierarchy. There's like a clear chain of command. God is over women. Oh, I messed it up already. I'm already a bad IBLP member. God is over men, then men are over women and children and parents are over the children. So you are very much meant to obey. Obey. Questioning authority is very discouraged. It's like a moral requirement that you obey and it extends into every single aspect of your life.

[B]

And she even talks about, not only do you have to obey, but you have to always appear enthusiastic, like the whole time. Like you can't. It was. You can't even show that you're a little bit annoyed or triggered or upset. You have to be enthusiastic at all times. There's no questioning. It's insane.

[A]

And it's like shutting down your humanity.

[B]

Yeah. And now we're progressing so much as humans and as women. And so it's really interesting to hear this. And it's just very modest, very obedient, very, very traditional gender roles over academic subjects. So like school education is for the men. You know, it's, it's. That's just go. It, it goes back so far.

[A]

They homeschool a lot and she'll talk about that. They have a program, the Advanced Training Institute is what it's called. But basically it's just you only learn the religious materials that reinforce the group's teaching. And yeah, women are literally just meant to be wives and mothers. You're not encouraged to do anything else. There's been a lot of criticism for iblp. I Thought it was interesting to note the founder stepped down in 2014 because 34 women accused him of sexual harassment and molesting, which shouldn't be surprising. I don't think some of them even said it happened when they were minors, but awful. They were sued by some of the alleged victims. But then the case was dismissed in 2018 because the statute of limitations had been exceeded. So that's cool.

[B]

It's interesting how Abby's background in this quote unquote cult plays a huge role in her dogfish experience. Yeah.

[A]

The background, I think, is important to note and we want you to keep it in mind while she's going through the story because think about growing up that way. Like, you're not what most of us are familiar with. She just didn't know her normal. Like, it's completely different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's easy to say for this,

[B]

oh, I would never do that. Like, why would she ever do that? When you grow up that way and that's all you know, that you don't know what you don't know. Like, you only know what you know.

[A]

This is going to be a two part episode also two parter. And you'll hear just from the. Is this intro. It's like a complicated story. So two parts are definitely necessary. And we're going to get into the cult upbringing a lot. In part one, before meeting her future husband, you'll want to know this part

[B]

of her life before you listen to part two and it all comes together and you're going to be like, holy crap. It's wild but incredible. Storyteller Abby was so amazing. And again, like Hannah said before, you think your story is like, you know, it's not that bad. Or it's not, you know, whatever. There are other people who are going to be like, I'm so grateful she told her story. So I can't wait for you guys to hear her. So let's bring Abby in. Yeah. Abby, thank you so much for being here.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

We would like to give you the floor. So will you please take us on your journey?

[C]

Yeah. So, yes, I am calling in because I have a little story. So I grew up in a very strict evangelical home. It was very cult like, actually, I would say it was a cult. If you've heard of IBLP or Bill Gothard, that is what I grew up with.

[A]

Elaborate. For those who maybe have not heard of that.

[C]

Yeah. My best example, my best example is the Duggar family, if you've heard of them.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

They were like the poster child family for this Cult. So it was IBLP.

[A]

How many kids did they have?

[C]

They had 19.

[B]

19 kids and counting. Right. Was that their show?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I am one of seven children, so my parents also believed in the procreate and multiply and all that jazz. A little bit of background. My parents origins are very Catholic, but both parents individually converted to evangelicalism separately. And then they met when my dad was 29 and my mom was 19 at Bible school and they were married within a year. So that's a very large age gap at a very young age. So not a great start. When my mom converted, she was very much rejected from her family of origin and became very isolated very quickly because they didn't agree with her choice. That was kind of the start. My dad was an only child and so they got married within a year, had their first child within a year, and proceeded to have seven more over the next 20 years.

[A]

So your parents are married, she's young, just popping out babies.

[C]

They have children immediately and very religious right away. My dad ends up being a pastor and we move around a lot.

[A]

And that was just because he was moving from different jobs.

[C]

He was very big on going where God led him, which. Yeah, so that was his deciding factor. It was not his family, it was where God led him. And God led him to not having a home for his children very often and moving around a lot and putting us into very isolating places.

[A]

So what does that mean? Like when you were moving, were you just drifting?

[C]

So a lot of it. I don't remember the first three years of my life because I was a baby.

[A]

I'll allow it.

[C]

The first three years, we moved around a lot. We did not have a home, so we were just staying in church basements or people's houses who would let us? And then when I was three, God called him to a pastor job that was very, very remote. Like the highway. The roads ended in that town and you could only get further by ice roads or train or plane. Oh, wow. Like the highway ended there.

[A]

Talk about isolation.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So we were very far away from everything. We were 13 hours away from any relatives. We knew nobody in that area. And we are a French Canadian family, so they moved us here. And it was fully English, so nobody could really communicate all that well.

[A]

That's so hard.

[C]

That's what I mean by isolation.

[A]

But you're three.

[C]

I was three when this happened. So at three is really when my parents got into the cult. It's when we moved to this remote, small little town where we didn't speak the language. So, yeah, there's just a very strong isolation on a lot of fronts there.

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

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[C]

Yep.

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[A]

how did they get into the cult? How did they make that transition?

[C]

I am not sure. I'm not sure. I think they were invited to a meeting and it kind of just snowballed from there. But by then there were contracts and everything that they had to sign and they like signed everything and really went all it. So the structure of this cult, iblp, which means Institute of Basic Life Principles, it's very high control and it's very hierarchical. So they have a picture and it's an umbrella. So the first umbrella is God and then it goes to the church, the husband, the wife and children. So women and children being at the bottom, are treated as more of a possession than individuals. They're not really anything special. They're kind of just raised to go on, bear children, babies. Yeah. So as the husband, my dad had absolute authority, like his word was everything. There was no questioning it. There was no pushback. There was no room for any thoughts or feelings or emotions or anything that went contrary to what he believed, which was what that Bill Gothard, the cult leader, taught. And seeing as he was the pastor also of our church, we got all of those teachings on Sundays. And then every day, morning and evening, he had hour long sermons that he would have just for us kids and we would be sitting at the table and not allowed to leave until he was done talking and saying whatever he wanted to say.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And any sign of not being happy, being there, being upset that you had to sit and listen, and all of that was met with a lot of anger and punishment. There was no room for.

[B]

You had to be enthusiastic.

[C]

Yeah. So a big thing in that environment was called a joyful countenance. So your face and eyes had to look like you were happy and joyful at all times.

[A]

Like, I just perked up trying to force it on myself.

[C]

I'm like, any outward expression of negative emotion was just bad. It was sin. Anger and bitterness were seen at all times, at all times. Any emotions that were negative, like angerness, bitterness, that type of stuff, it was called sin. And they also taught that it was the root of health issues. So, like, oh.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

If you had bitterness in your heart, that's what caused your cancer. It was your fault for not being a good enough Christian if you end up with a health issue. So that was the environment in the household of just no space for any emotion other than compliance and joy. I mastered being able to just have a neutral face because I could get away with that, too. So that was. That was a very solid mask I had for quite a long time. Wow. Yeah.

[A]

Ugh. Abby.

[C]

Yep. Just starting real strong. And with that environment, we were also homeschooled. It was absolutely required in this cult. Women were not allowed to work. That was one of the contracts that they signed that the man signs for the woman. And they had to homeschool. That was also a requirement. And they had an actual homeschooling program which was woefully inadequate. My parents were terrified of CPS coming to get us, so my mom did make sure that we were hitting the requirements that the public school system required. Right. Luckily, I got that good. But, yeah, so there was a lot of requirements. We were having to listen to these sermons twice a day. We had to do the cult curriculum every day. And that was a few hours of, again, mostly my dad talking. And then I also had to do all of the schoolwork to meet the provincial guidelines.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So there was a lot put on our time required of us. And 80% was considered a failing grade. So anything under that, I had to start over. So even at 80, I was getting yelled at and told that I had to look at it again and restart and get a better grade. And if I got 90, I was like, well, where's the other 10%?

[B]

It's never good enough.

[C]

No, never good enough. So that was a very strict requirement placed on me, on all of us. And at the same time, as I got older and I got interested in furthering my education and everything, then it wasn't a priority anymore. Then it's a waste of time, It's a waste of money, because women don't need an education. They're just going to get married and have babies. So any education beyond what the province required was not necessary. Not necessary and actually frowned upon for me, for a woman. For my brothers, different story. It was encouraged for them.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Very bizarre. Just completely being taught that you have to be dependent and submissive. And I was raised to obey. That was what was safe. I learned very quickly that questioning was not safe and it was just going to lead to punishment and being rejected and feeling alone, which was already. It was already a very lonely existence. I can imagine it was in my best interest to not push back so that I wasn't rejected and alone even more. So that was kind of the correct cancer.

[B]

And sure, you didn't get cancer.

[A]

And so I didn't get cancer. Oh, my God. You must have been so scared. Scared all the time.

[C]

Yeah. There was moments where I would pull away from everybody and go sit in my closet and cry and wish somebody would come and find me and care enough to notice, which, like, you know, at that point, something's wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. That's like, even at a young age, you know that I laugh there. That's my coping. I'm sorry.

[A]

No, we are the same.

[B]

Oh, no, same. We get it.

[C]

Yep. I look back now, I can. I see little me and I just. Oh, it hurts my heart.

[A]

Did you find yourself, like, what was your motivation at that point? At any point, did you think, I want to not be part of this anymore? Or was that not even possible to

[C]

think by the last year of high school, I would say there was. There was some of that. There was a moment. The years are blurry, so it's a little harder. But at some point in high school, probably between, like, grade 10, grade 12, is kind of where the cultishness of IBLP came out. And us kids kind of started to push back, like the older ones and who weren't at home. And then I did try to push back a little bit. At one point, I even told my little brother that the homeschool curriculum we were doing was not real school, which got me threatened by my parents. They threatened to kick me out. I think I was 14. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. How dare I speak out against the cult.

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

As high school goes on, it's getting more and more abusive and difficult for me to exist as a person. And I'm obviously starting to realize how. How bad it is. Like, how, hey, this isn't right. Like, I have a little bit more freedom now. I've gotten. I got a job at 13 years old. As soon as I was allowed legally, I got a job because it was a way out. And then the more I got out, the more I started to see that things were different in the real world, the secular world. But at home was still very much not safe. Any form of questioning or talking or expressing myself was met with a lot of anger and don't you dare and threats eventually. So that really made it very difficult to be connected to myself and my inner voice. Because the teaching was also like, that your heart is deceitful above all things. Like, you cannot trust yourself. You can't trust what your heart wants because it's full of sin. And that was very much reinforced and encouraged. So the most I really learned this in my teen years was that being compliant and going along with things and appearing interested in it was my best way to receive acceptance and the best way to earn love.

[A]

Survive.

[C]

And to survive. Yeah. But that's how I learned that I. That's how I learned that I could get love. Because I didn't get that before or I didn't. Like, there was no unconditional love. That was not a thing. I had to earn it. And being compliant and believing what they believed, regurgitating what they said, that was my safest existence. And so I faked it. And I learned to fake it really, really, really good. And that really caused a deep internal rift for me where I couldn't feel my own emotions. I couldn't identify them. It was like two separate people living inside my body.

[B]

One that had to just exist, and then one that was the real you.

[C]

Yeah. And that was my entire life. But it was really strong in my teen years, into early adulthood. I remember as a child, we would travel a lot for these conferences for the cult, and I would look out the window, and I, in my mind's eye, could just see, like, this girl riding a horse, just running along the side in the fields, and just the freedom of it. And I think that was my inner child's, like, the inner me. That entire time that I was watching from the outside, and. And she was always there, but we were completely disconnected. Sounds really weird to say it that way, but.

[A]

No, I think that makes total sense.

[C]

Yeah. She was always there. Just we were. We were not one person. So by the time I turned 18, that was how I lived. I just lived as the person that I was supposed to be and not as Abby.

[A]

There was no part of you that was like, I'm 18 now. Like, things could maybe change for me.

[C]

I started to make plans at that point, too. I wanted an education. I wanted to continue and have something to go into. I didn't know what I wanted to do. There was all sorts of things. The underlying theme was helping people. I wanted to be someone that helps people. But a really strong thing that was encouraged and allowed was going to Bible school. So I somehow weaseled my way into going to Bible school in Central America.

[B]

What?

[A]

I mean, yeah.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Why Central America?

[C]

The year before. So When I was 17, I went on a missions trip with my dad.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

To Costa Rica. So we had gone there together the year before. And so when I was just about done school, I was like, hey, I want to go to Bible school. I taught myself Spanish that entire year. So in my room, by myself, taught myself Spanish. So then I told my dad, I'm going to go to Bible school. And he was like, well, why don't you go to a Spanish one? And I was like, okay. And I found one in Costa Rica right away.

[B]

Bet.

[C]

And I told him, and he was like, oh, well, I guess since I suggested it, I can't say no, can I? Like, nope.

[A]

You're like, God is leading me here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he led you everywhere we went.

[C]

I'm going to Costa Rica for a year. That's awesome. So I left and went there for a year. And that was like, actually getting to be on my own and experience independence for the first time. I skipped church for the first time ever and just went to a fruit market. And I did not get struck down. I did not get struck down by lightning. I was still alive. I did go to church that evening because I felt so guilty. But I started skipping Sunday morning church because it was beautiful there. I didn't want to be in a stuffy church. And then I would go to an evening service. And it was the first time of being like, oh, I can kind of experience religion in my own way. Like, it in your own way.

[B]

You can have your. Yes. Your own relationship with God.

[C]

Yeah. It does not have to be structured in the way that I was taught. So this is really cool. Like, I'm enjoying this a lot better now. It feels a little more real and less forced. Performative and forced.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But there was still some legality happening through the Bible school teachers. I did start to get that pushback from them of me pushing back too much and enjoying my liberties too much.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah. So I went home after a year, and my dad at that point is retiring, and so they're moving because this whole time we've lived in that same small town in the church's house. So I go home and they are getting ready to move. My dad is retiring. It's wintertime. My mom breaks both her wrists.

[B]

What? How does she break both her wrists?

[C]

I don't know. I don't remember what happened. And so she's bedridden because she is in so much pain. Both her wrists are broken. So all that's left at home. All that's left at home is my dad. Yeah, my dad and my oldest brother and my little brother. And my little brother at this point is like 12 or something. Like, he's still a baby. So I'm back, and within probably two weeks, I am in charge of the household. Like, I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, packing. If I'm not doing it, it's not happening because, wow, I am the woman now. So I do that. We move, we go to this other house. It's an absolute dump. So I decide, okay, I'm going to university. And the only program that I was able to get into that was acceptable was a bachelor of Arts, just like, generic one. Because then I could go to teachers college. And teachers college at this point is now an acceptable profession because then I can use it to teach my children when I have kids and homeschool them.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

So I end up doing a online university. So now I'm living at home. I am doing school full time. I get a job at a call center full time. So now I'm studying full time, working full time, living at home full time, which living at home involves cooking, cleaning, laundry, everything.

[B]

You're just a woman again, now I

[C]

am just a woman. I am just there to serve because what else do I have to offer? So I'm exhausted and I pick up a second job because why wouldn't I? At a church. And I'm working there a few times a week. So it's just crazy amounts of driving. All of the work, all of the studying, and no rest at home. So I eventually, I'm talking to a friend from church, one of the other youth leaders. And she's living in a house that has six rooms and they're all rented out piecemeal. And she's like, hey, one's opening up. Why don't you move in? So I make the plan, sign the lease, tell my parents immediate blow up. My dad turns around and starts calling people saying, you have to pray for Abby. She is going through something very serious. And that is his reaction to me wanting to move out at 22. Because I'm not getting married. I'm just going out to live by myself. And that's unacceptable.

[B]

That's crazy. What a crazy idea. At 22. Oh, boy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. He gets my siblings in on it. So even my brother, who had run away from home when he turned 18, he even. He's calling me and going, like, what are you doing? Why would you do this? So many of my siblings are now turning against me, too, and attacking me for wanting to move out. And the pressure is just so much that I break my lease and I don't move out. And I. I still just. I really want to keep that relationship with my parents at that point. So I back off plans. Yeah.

[A]

No matter what a kid's connection, like, you always are wanting their approval and, oh, for sure.

[C]

It's such a biological thing to want a parent and to not want to be alone. Yeah. So a few months go by. I don't even know if it was months or weeks, but I'm just like, holy, I cannot stay here. Like, this is killing me. I can't stay in this house and continue to live my life and try to establish myself. So I find a different place to live. I sign the lease, I make my plan, and on New Year's Eve, my whole family is gone. Don't know why I stayed, but my whole family is gone to visit my relatives. And I pack up my car because I had finally got myself a car at that point, and I leave and I move out and I never go back. Like, I never go back to living with my parents. That is, I just. I run away at 22 and I don't tell them where I'm living. They came back and they were shocked. I did create distance on purpose initially, just to protect myself and to be able to stick to my decision for a long time. I don't tell them where I live either. I just keep it to myself. So now I'm living on my own for the first time, and I'm paying rent, I'm working. And, yeah, I am out of the umbrella of protection So I am vulnerable in the terms of the cults. I am very vulnerable to drugs, sex and rock and roll. And quite literally, I am very vulnerable because they didn't teach me how to survive by myself.

[A]

Right?

[C]

So at that point, I'm living by myself. I don't really know how to have healthy relationships. I don't know how to connect with people. I don't even know how to connect with myself because I am still completely separate from the inner me. But I am really good at pretending to have my shit together. And I get so many praises and accolades for being so good at my job and so good at balancing it all. And, like, look at you go. You are killing it. You're doing such a good job from the external perspective, while I am most nights going home and crying because I am so lonely. I'm so alone. I don't know what to do. And then working in a call center, which is not really known for being a great safe space for people in general, I end up getting manipulated by an older man. And I'm 22, he's 42, and end up getting assaulted by him. And I don't know how to say no. I was never taught how to say no. And I end up stuck in this like it's not a relationship, but I'm trapped with him in my life, and I don't know how to get out of it. And it starts to kind of thanks. It starts to kind of be known because he's around. I. I don't know how to say no. I don't know how to get away from him.

[A]

At your workplace, too.

[C]

And you need money and he's my supervisor.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Of course. Of course. And my brother finds out about this, and he interprets it as a relationship. I am in a relationship with this man.

[B]

Because he assaulted you, so now you're his and whatever. Oh, my.

[C]

Well, they don't know about the assault. My brother does not know because, oh, it's my fault. I'm out of the umbrella of protection. It's my fault that I got assaulted.

[A]

And I would imagine there's, like, sex before marriage expectations.

[C]

Yeah, that's not allowed.

[A]

That would also be pinned on and they would blame you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that is not allowed. I am broken goods now in my head, I am so disconnected from myself. And I feel even more broken now because I've lost the one thing that had value to offer someone in the future in my mind, in how I was raised. So my brother finds out. He accuses me of being boy Crazy. And I do end up telling my mom that. And she's like, well, he's right. So I get blamed and like, I am guilty for this. This is my fault. And then my dad, because at this point I'm still working at the church, my dad threatens to tell the pastor. He says, if you don't get out of this, I will go tell the pastor about your sin so that you get fired. So.

[A]

So you're. You're losing one of the jobs at this point. You're like, yeah, so I have to leave this alone.

[B]

Oh my God.

[C]

And I still don't know how to get out of it. I still don't know how to get away from. And I now am being threatened that I have to get away from him. Otherwise I lose the one job where I do have more of a community at this point because I am getting to know people. So it still took time. I did eventually get away from him. I. I still don't like. I don't. I don't remember how. It's like three years that start about there that are just a dark pit where like if I was disconnected before, now I am just swimming in the dark. I am just for sure alone entirely. I have this secret now that the church can never know about. I don't have my family support and they've made that blatantly clear. I do eventually leave that job, so it helps to get away. But this man knows where I live. He knows where I work. He knows what my car looks like. So he still, for quite a long time after continues to like harass isn't the right word, but like he would send stuff for me to my parents house. He would tie bags to my car door handle for me to find when I came back. I did move. So eventually he did not know. And it was a building you needed a key to get into. So that created a lot more safety at that point.

[A]

Abby. Like the amount of control that was taken away from you at various stages of the story is just heartbreaking. Like you talking about the disconnect with your own intuition and then the dis. There's such a disconnect that happens when your body is taken from you now that's not yours anymore. Like you are just. I mean, I just hate it. I'm with Mackenzie. I hate everyone. This is really upsetting.

[C]

Yeah. I'm sorry.

[A]

No. Oh. I mean, we're upset for you and with you.

[C]

I know, I know.

[A]

You put a dollar.

[C]

I'm Canadian. There'd be so many dollars in there.

[A]

Oh, Man. And as women, we all need a sari jar.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So I managed to leave that job. I move. So now I'm living in a little bachelor pad by myself. It is the safest I've ever been. But I am also so alone on so many levels, from people, from family, from myself. Like, it is just a deep, dark pit. And I decide that all I got to do is just throw myself into everything I'm doing and that should be enough. Like, I will make myself enough by what I do and that becomes my identity. And I would say, like, I stop living during those three years of just trying to survive after all of that really awful stuff that happened back to back. And if I do stuff, that's how I earn love. That's what I've learned and that's what I fall back on. So it's now been three years. I am just finishing up my degree, still online. I am now working at the church almost full time. At that point. It's my safest environment because I can work from home a lot. If I'm not working from home, I'm at a church and I'm doing all of the church things and that is safe. And.

[A]

And this church is associated with the.

[C]

No, it's a non denominational church. So by that point, I don't believe in the cult stuff anymore, but it's still in there, still in my head. And so I. I spend a lot of time at home at a cafe or at church. And that is essentially my life at that point. And I'm getting more involved with church activities and the young adult groups. I go to a Survivor's night for young adults, for the church people. And he is new.

[A]

Survivor.

[C]

Like the show? Yeah.

[B]

Like, what is Survivors night?

[C]

The show. So we all go to somebody's.

[A]

I was like, oh, were they having like a support group for Survivors?

[B]

Survivor. Got it.

[A]

No.

[B]

Watching Survivor together.

[C]

Watching Survivor.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

We go to somebody's basement and we have snacks and we watch Survivor And I've been going to this.

[B]

You did? That's not fun.

[C]

It was fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I still like it. I enjoy it.

[A]

I'm glad you have community now.

[C]

Yeah. So I've been going for a while. It's fun. And one night there's someone new and he's charismatic, he's confident. He's just chatting it up. And his presence is known in the room. Like, he's new, but he is there and you can't miss him. Very opposite to me, where I just hide in a corner and people forget that I'M there. So, yeah, he is 5 foot 4, and he wears cowboy boots and cowboy hat at all times. I am five, eight, so it's just a charismatic short king. I find out he's military. He just moved to the city we live in, and he's trying to connect with people. So that's cool. Nothing wrong there. We go to the same church. My job at the church is leading the youth programs and children's programs, so grades one, two post secondary. So I'm in charge of getting volunteers and making sure there's people to work these evenings. So a few months after meeting him, he reaches out to me and he goes, hey, I would like to volunteer. So whenever somebody wants to volunteer, I meet up with them, usually at a cafe or something. And then we talk and I ask questions and I make sure that they're not a creepy because I care about my kids.

[A]

Thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that.

[C]

Yep. So I meet with him and ask the usual questions, but then we just vibe and we talk for like three hours. And usually it's like 20 minutes because I'm not a talker. So three hours of just talking about this and that. And we have lots in common. We're both from a big family. He's from six kids and I'm seven kids and religious.

[B]

You got it.

[C]

And he had some homeschooling in his background and just seemed like a lot of shared commonalities, so. And then three hours, I'm like, wow, that's a long time. That's cool.

[B]

I didn't even realize how short you were. That's a great time conversation we just had.

[C]

I looked right over that pun intended.

[A]

And he had his cowboy hat on.

[C]

Oh, yes. Always, always, always.

[B]

Cowboy hat adds, like 12 inches.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

He's probably 6 foot 2 on Tinder.

[A]

I mean, any. Any guy that's like, this is my thing. I'm confident in it. Like, yeah, Confidence goes so far, for sure.

[C]

And when you're somebody that has lost their confidence and, like, never actually developed it, to meet someone who's just so confident and then.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

Willing to talk to you and be very connected. Like, that's so cool. And I felt like.

[B]

And it's inspiring. And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because it feeds into that little bit of you that's like, I wish I don't feel out of place all the time. I wish I could connect with people more easily. So, of course, it's nice to see that. So we talk, and I feel seen and understood And I feel like there's so much compatibility. And we start to hang out and talk a lot from there. And so February 2020, we are officially dating. We're always together. He buys me flowers for Valentine's. It's so cute. And that's nice. I had plans to go and visit my home province, so I invited him along. Like, let's go. Like, let's go see somewhere that's important to me together. So we go see my home province and it's so fun. I get to show him places that are special to me because I love this place. And by then, it's March 2020, when all of the COVID lockdown begins. So we. Oh, no, we have to cut our trip short because the entire world is shutting down. There's nowhere to stay. Everything is closed. Like, we have to go home. And his roommates are like, well, no, you can't come home. What if you brought Covid back? You got to isolate somewhere. So he basically moves into my apartment, my cute little studio that has been my safe space for the last three years. And I go and stay at my parents house. They have a little like, room that was my dad's study attached to the garage. So I stayed in there on a cot bed for like a week while he stayed in my apartment. So that was weird. At least I wasn't with my family. But like, even just the proximity, the fact they knew my comings and goings, that scraped scabs off of old wounds because that's.

[B]

I bet it did.

[C]

Yeah. That didn't feel safe.

[A]

Did they know about your boyfriend and what did they think of him by then?

[C]

They knew and they seemed okay with it at that point. They didn't want us sleeping together, so they didn't mind that I stayed at the house.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Mackenzie, we're both obsessed with beauty products, but I do think we can agree there's a lot out there. And it's very overwhelming.

[B]

It really is. But I really do. I like osea. So OSEA is it's something that you reach for when you really, really want. Something that will transform how your skin looks and feels.

[A]

And I. We're specifically excited about their body balm. And I feel like there's so much lotion, so many options. You want something that's going to feel consistent and good that you don't have to worry about. And also, I don't love the feeling of like a sticky lotion or body oil before bed. Like, no, I don't want it to feel too heavy. And I've found that this almost feels like the same hydration as a lotion, but it works like a serum as well.

[B]

Liquid silk.

[A]

It's so nice. And it's feels like I'm at a spa. It com.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It combines the lasting hydration of a lotion with the firming power of a serum. And I feel smoother and firmer and supple.

[B]

I like that word supple. Because if you think of your skin like, it's almost like you want it to be bouncy and very, like, you know, bright and supple.

[A]

It really does melt into your skin, though. So you're not going to feel sticky or wet, but you are going to feel hydrated and replenished. I also love that the liquid silk body balm is clinically tested and designed to deliver visible results. You can see them, you can feel them. And I really do feel like I've noticed more hydration, like in my legs especially. I've been putting it on my legs and my arms. It's really nice. I kind of want to go put it on right now. And we're not the only ones who think so. 94 agreed. Skin felt more nourished and moisturized and softer. And 94 agreed that the skin felt more smooth and more supple. Our favorite word. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10 off your First Order site wide with code dating [e-mail].

[C]

So the week is done. He's allowed back in his place. So I move back in. The place is dirty. But I was just like, huh, that's weird. Whatever. Clean it up.

[B]

This is fine.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. He had moved his gaming computer into my apartment during that time because he's a big gamer. So he gains a lot. So he moved it in for that week and it essentially stayed there for the rest of the rest of time. So he would. Because now we were doing Covid together. We were spending all of our time. There was nobody else I hung out with. No one he really hung out with. Like we were each other's bubble, which is.

[B]

Yeah. During COVID you were stuck with who

[A]

you were stuck with in a lot of relationships. Really, really fast track.

[C]

Yep, sure do. And because he's military, but newer military, he's like bottom of the food chain. So they don't need him. He is getting paid, but he does not need to be on base. So we're spending all of our time together. I'm still working by then. I've graduated about February is when I Graduated.

[A]

Congratulations by the way.

[C]

And then I wasn't quite making enough at the church to survive so I got another part time job. So I was working still throughout the entirety of COVID and he was just gaming, just gaming away. Yeah, but that's like we are each other's emotional support, we're each other's bubble and we don't see anybody else, we don't talk to anybody else. And this whole time the relationship is developing and getting more in depth and more serious because that's what happened in Covid.

[A]

What was like, can you talk about falling in love? Like what was talk about the good stuff, I guess.

[C]

I don't think I knew what love was at that point. So to me someone was there, someone was home. It was nice to have somebody there. When I got home I could talk to him. I had someone to cook for. I love cooking and baking. So it was really nice to just like not eat by myself. I hated eating by myself. I felt I wasn't alone. I felt supported and like he loved me, whatever that meant. It felt like I had somebody in my court and I had never had that feeling before. So to me that was kind of beautiful. And the first time ever. I don't know that I would describe it as love now with my understanding, but back then that was the most love I've ever had. Obviously there's some red flags that now we see of him not going to work and gaming for like 8, 10 hour days. Those are, that's a big red flag. But I excuse that away also.

[A]

Like you work from home part of the time so you're just like in the corner while he's like yelling at Grand Theft Auto or whatever.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. I excused it because that was his community. Like it was Covid. So a lot of his friends were gamers too and he could just play off Covid.

[B]

And that's how you were connecting was online. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So I understood it.

[A]

Any other red flags at this point?

[C]

There wasn't a lot of support with everything I was juggling. But again, it's new. I don't expect support. I've never gotten support. Why would I have that? Why would somebody make dinner for me when I'm gone to work and coming back at 7pm? Like that's weird. Yeah, that's my job. Red flag because that's such bare minimum. And then he had lots of car issues all the time. So he was always having issues with his cars and he didn't have money so he would be stuck with his broken car. And not be able to afford it. And then he had really bad credit and like, just. Yeah, just weird. Just weird. But I just excused it because I don't know.

[A]

Did he ever want you to pay for anything?

[C]

I ended up paying for stuff, yes. So during. During the dating period, his one car broke down. He also said he was a mechanic. He said he worked as a mechanic for quite a while. He could never fix his cars, so I don't know. That was weird.

[A]

He didn't say a good mechanic, Abby.

[C]

Clearly not. Clearly not a good one. So he completely fucked up the brakes on his little Jeep he had there and then was like, well, I can't afford to fix this, and decided that the best solution was to buy a different car. So then he bought a different car that wasn't road worthy, without a lot of work, and then he fucked that all up too and couldn't figure out how to get it roadworthy, which again, I don't know where.

[A]

The mechanics of a mediocre man.

[C]

Yep. And then later on, again, that car's not working, so we have to buy a car and he has shit credit. So I buy the car with my name on it and now that's his car.

[B]

Did he ask you for that or did you offer? Or was that kind of like the dry begging where I wish I had a co signer.

[A]

Yeah. And of course you're gonna offer.

[C]

It was just. It was just obviously this is what's gonna happen. Like, well, we both need a car, so of course that I'll sign. This is the obvious solution, so of course I'll do it. Of course I'll put my name down. Yeah. So that was. Those are red flags I didn't see. And they happened gradually. I say them back to back, like, this was over months of time that this all happened. So that's kind of where we're sitting. We're getting closer, things are progressing. And in April, we have sex for the first time. And it's consensual, which is my first time on that. It's very disappointing. Oh, no. But because of the. Yeah, because of the religious beliefs, like, the training is that if you have six, you're getting married. So before anything happens, we have this very intense conversation of, like, if we cross this line, if we have sex, like, we are getting married. And he goes, would you marry me? And I say, yes. And again, very mediocre and disappointing. Not worth it. And then at that point, I'm locked in. This relationship is fully committed. We're gonna get married. Like this is it. This is my husband. And that's it. There is no other thought or talk or anything like that. We are committed now. And so in May, he proposes. It's been about three months of dating and he proposes. And apparently he had this whole magical plan, bring me out. My apartment had a rooftop patio, and he was going to have this whole magical romantic proposal up there. Instead, he. It was gonna be on my birthday, too. And instead, the day before my birthday, I'm helping him move because he's moving the next day, and I come across the ring, the box with it, and he is like, what the heck? And he flips a coin and he's like, heads, I propose, tails, I wait till tomorrow. Yeah. So he flips the coin and it's head. So he proposes right away on his dirty old mattress on the floor, while everything is dirty and all over the place because he's moving.

[B]

How romantic.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I guess it's the thought that counts. He's like, I was gonna.

[C]

I was going to do this. I have no inkling or like, I have nothing to prove that he was actually going to do it. From everything I saw after.

[A]

Yeah. At that point, he can say whatever he wants about what he was going to do.

[C]

Yeah. So he proposes, and of course I say yes because we're basically already engaged anyways. We already decided this was happening and that's. That's the engagement. It was very romantic.

[A]

How did your family react?

[C]

Not well. They kind of were like, well, that's fast. We hardly know this guy, and you hardly know this guy, and all valid points, but this whole time I've really kept a separation from my family because they aren't safe and they're not supportive and they're not any of the things that family is. They are just right. Anytime I do do anything, they attack me and judge me for it. So of course this was going to be the same scenario. So their judgment on it doesn't matter. Like, it's so inconsequential. This entire time, though, I have. I've still been working at the church. And towards the end of May, June, I believe, actually I stopped working there. And that entire year before, I'd begun questioning my faith and really deconstructing all of my beliefs and just figuring out what I actually believed and what I wanted to stand by and figuring out my own moral code. So I am questioning everything. I'm taking apart everything. I am.

[A]

What sparked that? Did anything particular it?

[C]

Well, I worked for the church, so I saw a lot of the background stuff. And that for sure initiated a lot of it. And I think I felt safe at that point because I had now the support of my fiance, I had somebody in my court and I, yeah, I started to really take everything apart. And I. I could just see so much harm was being perpetrated by the church. Like, everywhere I looked, I could just see people being hurt. Like, not just little itty bitty things, but actual harm that's gonna stick with people. I was like, I've experienced this and now I'm watching other people experience it. I'm like, how do I stand by that? I can't. Like, there is nothing in me that lines up with this treatment of people. Like, there was a youth in the group that I led that was trans. And watching them interact with religion and how they were treated and how they received that treatment, that really started to spark things of being like, this is a person who cares how they feel. Like, who cares how they identify.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then we had a staff meeting once and they were talking about how far into leadership they would allow someone who's queer. And they talked about concentric circles where, like, leading in and in and in and like, how close to the most central circle are queer people allowed. And they landed on like, well, they can be ushers, but we're not going to let them on the worship team because that's too much. And I'm listening to this just like my insides are screaming. Like, this is not right. Like, I know the person we're talking about and they're genuinely good, wonderful, human. Why would we talk about them this way behind their back? So that really triggered a lot of the deconstruction of just seeing the act of harm being made and done to people in a church that I thought I trusted, a church I thought I could trust because they weren't legalistic and all of that, like, what I had been raised in. I thought that they really valued the person over everything else. And then just to see, like, nope, nope, it's all the same, like, everywhere just continues to hurt people. And I can't stand with that. I cannot. So my last year of working there, I was actively deconstructing while still teaching Bible lessons.

[B]

That must have been a little bit of a mind. Mind fuck.

[C]

Yeah. But as soon as my contract was up, I didn't even go back to church. And I had been there three years, four years. Three or four years, and they didn't even notice. No one even reached out to notice that I wasn't going anymore. I wasn't Attending. I wasn't a part of any. So I lost my whole community in that process.

[A]

Your family. Your community now. And you're about to get married, and

[C]

I'm about to get married, and it's still Covid. So I am all alone. Like, there is no other emotional support. And with deconstructing my faith, I'm distancing myself from my family even more because they can't. They can't understand why I'm doing this. They aren't going to accept that I am taking apart my faith and living differently, even though I am living in a more, like, true and authentic version of myself that treats people far more kindly and fairly.

[B]

Doesn't matter.

[C]

Does not matter.

[A]

You can't question.

[C]

No, I am questioning, and that's wrong. So that is happening. This entire relationship is. I am deconstructing it all. And at first he's okay with it. Eventually he's very. I'm angry. I am so angry. Coming up, like, taking everything apart and seeing all of the harm. I live in my anger for quite a while, which, as we already said, is a defense mechanism. Like, it is good, it is safe, it does stuff. It protects you and it protects other people when you get to be angry and use your anger for good. And that was my anger. My anger was protecting me. It was allowing me to question and to rebuild and to figure out what I was going to do and what I believed. So my anger was good. And at first he was okay with it, and then he started to get mad and frustrated that he's like, when are you going to stop being angry? I'm like, you do not want me to stop being angry right now at the church. It's going to come out against you because this anger is going somewhere.

[A]

Yeah. Was he also leaving church or was it as big of a break for him?

[C]

It was less of a break for him. I don't think he ever bought into it as fully as I did or as I had to. I think he did it for having a community, for having people, and it served him. So he quickly became against it, against the fact that I walked away from my faith. So that is all happening. And those are a lot of layers and a lot of stuff and a lot of isolation. And as I'm doing that, my sister is also in the same process. She's also questioning for the first time, and she lives 24 hours away from where I live at that point. So we're texting and we talk about it, and it's kind of this bonding thing. Where we're figuring it out. And she's really big on talking to people from our past to kind of like learn about different things that happened in our childhood. And one of the things that we find out is that my parents left me with a known pedophile on purpose when I was about four or five. On purpose?

[B]

Well, what you mean on purpose?

[C]

I mean a woman from the church was willing to babysit me for some reason I needed babysitting that day, that night. And they, she offered and my parents said no and sent me off with him instead. And I remember we went camping, we were in a tent. I remember spending the night in the tent. I don't remember anything else. So I don't know. I don't know. I'm not going to say anything more to that. But that comes out that my parents knew and they had options on where to place their four or five year old daughter for a night and they chose to leave me with him. So I'm so mad.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

So mad when that comes out. I'm mad at the people for not fighting, for not calling cps. I'm mad at my parents for allowing that to happen. And Caleb is also mad about it and decides to confront my parents because I'm not, I have like no contact with them really at this point. I don't think I've seen them in person for a while. By then he goes and he confronts my dad and my dad completely denies it. He says we would never do that, we never did that. And there are my memories where I remember being left with him and there is other adults at the time who remember it happening. And not just that. The outcome of that is Caleb saying never contact Abby again. How dare you. This happened. And that was a really big breaking point where I was like, how in the do I keep people like this in my life? Like if I have kids? Because at that point kids are being talked about because we're getting married. Like I don't want them around them. I don't want them being indoctrinated like I was or anything. So that was a really big break there in my relationship with my family. I don't actually think I saw them again after that. And any communication was very, very minimal. So that was, that was a big event and it did bring me closer to him because like, wow, somebody that spoke up and defended me. How crazy is that? Yep. And then by then we are engaged. We're still slowly planning. I want an outdoor wedding. I don't want a pastor. Like I Don't want a religious wedding. I just want a simple little ceremony outside and by the water, preferably. So now we are planning on going to visit his family, Caleb's family, and that's the first time I'll ever meet them. So we're making this plan and somehow, don't know how, but somehow the idea is thrown out there and accepted that we will get married while we're there. Oh, and we're going in October. So we started dating in January or February, engaged in May, and now we're getting married in October and we met October the year before for the first time. So that's the plan. I have a dress. We go there. By this point, we have a puppy because he wanted to get a dog and I love dogs. So we got a puppy and I bring him with me.

[A]

Cute, except for the fact that you live in a studio apartment where he's gaming all the time. Because I imagine he's not taking care of the puppy very well.

[C]

No, that's your job. Yeah. And this dog loves me and I love him. But it was a lot of added responsibility. But yeah, we've made this decision. Now I have to decide when to tell family because minimal contact, but there's still contact. I wait till about two weeks before and I send that in the group chat of like, FYI, Caleb and I are getting married. There will be a live stream. You're welcome to watch it. Making it clear that I am not inviting them. I did not want to give them enough time to go and I still felt like I had to tell them it was happening. Yeah. So very, very strong reaction from family there. I'm getting messages left and right. My brother is saying all sorts of really harsh, harsh stuff. My brother in law is messaging me, he's messaging Caleb and just attacking both of us and saying how we're hurting my parents and all of this stuff. So there is no, no support. It is all just attacks of how could you do this? And it just reinforces this idea of like, well, once we're married, this is done. Like this won't happen anymore. We won't need to.

[A]

Also, I feel like it would push you closer to Caleb.

[C]

Yeah. Because now I had seen him against the world. That is how it felt a hundred percent. He is my whole world at that point. And of course that's like, this is what's happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So that just starts to feel like the safest escape, the safest way is just, let's get married, let's get this over with and hopefully things Will be easier after that. It's a great way to go into a marriage. And this whole time, his family is being very supportive. His mom and his aunt plan the wedding. I tell them, like, I don't really care. Plan whatever you want. However it looks like, I don't care. So his mom and aunt are planning the wedding, and we fly out there. I don't really jive well with his family. I still feel, like, really weird with them and not super, like, cozy, which is the first time we're meeting. So. Yeah. But then it's really weird because I'm marrying their son in a week.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, boy. Yeah. So very, very bizarre scenario. And then we are in marriage prep. What's the word for that? We are in premarital counseling. Premarital counseling with the pastor who married his dad. And I tell the pastor, I'm like, I don't want a religious wedding. Like, I am not very religious anymore. I just want something short and sweet, nothing religious. And then he's basically not threatening us. That's a strong word. But the pastor is saying, like, it's really fast. I don't feel super comfortable marrying you guys. I will do it, but you have to promise that this is it. You are getting married, and you do plan to be together, and that's something. Yeah. Yeah. So weird thing to.

[A]

You're like, we're not doing this because we don't plan to be married.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, no one.

[A]

Nobody goes into it.

[C]

No, no, Exactly. There's a brief moment during the counseling where I have a thought of, I don't know if I want to do this. And I immediately shove that thought down because I am in a different province. I'm by myself, surrounded by his family. I don't have a car. I can't get to the airport. I am, at this point, helping pay for a car. So I don't really have money either. And I have my apartment and, like, my car.

[B]

Well, like, I'm already. I'm already in it.

[C]

I'm here. I'm not feeling super fallacy.

[B]

Yeah, that's called the sunk cost fallacy. Whenever you. You're like, well, I've already put this much into it.

[A]

I might as well keep going.

[C]

And I feel alone there.

[A]

Crazy.

[C]

Like, I've put a lot into this, and I don't. Like, I have the thought, how do I leave? Like, what do I do? If I cancel the wedding? I have nowhere to go and no one to go to. And I'm with his family. They're not going to have my back. I'm the stranger. So that thought I just shoved down right away because I have no way out. This is my option. This is what I'm doing. So that is a tough one to remember and wish I had had the strength to follow through on that thought and listen to it. I would have been okay if I did, but I didn't feel like I would in that moment.

[A]

Yeah, you did the best you could with what you had at that moment,

[C]

and I had nothing.

[A]

Give yourself some grace there. You had nothing.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So then we get married, and it's in a church. It's the same pastor. It's the same exact sermon. And the main message of the sermon is that you can pray and love someone into changing. Which I'm listening to that going, no, you can't. That's not how that works.

[A]

Also, why would you want to.

[C]

That was the wedding. So then we fly back, and now we're getting ready to move in together because we haven't been living together, but not really. We both still have a separate place, so we move into an apartment together. And it's not in a great part of town because we're both young and poor. We're both working full time, so we both have steady paychecks coming in. Within weeks of moving in together, though, he is turning completely distant. We're not talking anymore. We're not doing very much together anymore. There's just no emotional connection, which is so weird. So weird, because it hasn't been like that so far. And this was, like, right off the hop. That's how fast his behavior went from being the support that I thought I had to just not giving a shit about me. It was.

[A]

It's so scary that when people, like, get that marriage or lock in the security of the relationship, they just flip a switch.

[B]

Okay, so already this is so much. Right? Oh, my gosh. But this is something that, like. Like we said earlier, this was the.

[A]

It's the priming of her. She was raised to be in an abusive relationship.

[B]

It was definitely priming her for sure.

[A]

So I know there's so much more to come this week. Send us your questions or if you have experience with anything like this or just want to share support for Abby. We love to pass that along to our guests. But next week, we're going to hear more about how this impacted her relationship and get into the. What did you just say? Dog fishery.

[B]

The dog fisheries. Yeah, we'll definitely hear more about that, but I think that hearing this week's episode will help you understand? More next week. And you'll be like, ah, I can see why, you know, she did that or why she reacted that way, responded that way. And so super, super interesting story. And I'm curious from our audience, have any of you been in an environment that is like this, like, very cool, or this one? A lot of religions, I feel like, can feel this way. Like, I come from a very Southern Baptist religious family. My mom's a pastor. My whole family is, you know, church, church, church. And my. There are parts of my family that are like, friends.

[A]

Extreme.

[B]

Yeah, they're a little bit more extreme. They're. Some of them are friends with some of these people and that you might have heard of. And it's just very interesting. You never know, like, you know who. It's just. It's so. It's so wild to me.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's. I'm glad you mentioned that. And we'll get into it more and more. The dogfish debrief of part two. But, like, this is such a. An extreme. And religion comes up on the show a lot because at least my. I'm just speaking for myself. Like, I was raised Jewish in like, a modern way, like Reform, which is very, like, chill Judaism. But, you know, religion is so complex and it. There's a beautiful part of the community that comes with it, but it's so easy to be used as a tool to manipulate. And there are extremes in every. Any group, not even just religion, like, any group has the potential to do this. And I think it's just important that we talk about the dangers to stay aware. The same way that, like, love is real, love is beautiful, we love relationships, and yet there are dogfish relationships, you know what I mean? So I know it can be triggering to hear religious stories, but it. Religious trauma is just so devastating. And we got to talk about it, so we're gonna talk about it. And we got more to say next week, baby.

[B]

Yeah. So tune in next week for sure. You're gonna want to hear the rest. And you. I think it'll. I don't. It'll be really eye opening and super, super interesting, for sure.

[A]

Well, we love you guys and chat throughout the week. We want to hear what you have to say. We're a dating detectives podcast on Instagram and Facebook and Tick Tock and. And whatever else is out there.

[B]

Thank you for sharing us on your. On your socials also and really connecting us with other. Other people who, you know, really need to hear these stories.

[A]

So thank you.

[B]

And we love you as Always trust

[A]

your Fen tuition,

[B]

Sam.