← The Dating Detectives
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- [00:01]
Maddie
The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-777, 233 for support.
- [00:39]
Becca
Happy dating, detectives. Monday.
- [00:41]
Maddie
We're back with part two of Abby's story, and it's a doozy.
- [00:46]
Becca
Yeah, I know you guys are so excited to jump into part two, because part one, you guys were. We had a lot of good feedback about part one. Isn't it crazy?
- [00:56]
Maddie
Yeah. So if you have not listened, definitely do not pass go, do not go forward until you've listened to part one. But we'll do a quick recap. So Abby was raised in what she can now call a cult. At the time, it was an evangelical Christian sect called IBLP. It's what the Duggar family, 19 kids and counting, were also a part of. And it essentially just raised her to be submissive, to obey as a woman, to be lesser and just there to serve the men and have children. And we left off where she has gotten older, broken away from that is no longer really close with her family or have many ties to them. And then she's married a man who she met through church, although he's not the same Christian. You know, it was her way out. I see that marriage as a way out out. And then they just got married. And all of a sudden, Caleb, her new husband, his behavior starts to change a bit right after they put a ring on it.
- [02:01]
Becca
And it's like, okay, like suddenly you're, you're married now. And then like suddenly everything changes. What the crap is really going on. And also, as always, I just want to thank you guys for listening and just being so supportive of our guests. And, and your comments are always so supportive and kind and we really appreciate that. Thank you for listening. Thank you to our Patreon for being on the Patreon. We always have the link to the Patreon in the show notes so you can join our Patreon. We have the two different tiers, the $5 and then the $9 girlfriend experience ad free listening situation.
- [02:38]
Maddie
Can I just give couple trigger warnings just in case?
- [02:41]
Becca
Oh, yeah.
- [02:41]
Maddie
Talked about at the beginning, but yeah. So obviously religious trauma and abuse in that realm. But there's going to be some emotional and financial abuse and a little bit of animal stuff.
- [02:51]
Becca
There's a little bit of animal abuse and just it's, you know, as part of Abby's story. So thank you for being understanding as you listen. I think we should. Let's get into it and let's let Abby tell the rest of the story.
- [03:12]
Abby
That was the wedding. So then we fly back and now we're getting ready to move in together because we haven't been living together, but not really. We both still have a separate place. So we move into an apartment together. And it's not in a great part of town because we're both young and poor. We're both working full time, so we both have steady paychecks coming in. Within weeks of moving in together, though, he is turning completely distant. We're not talking anymore. We're not doing very much together anymore. There's just no emotional connection, which is so weird. So weird because it hasn't been like that so far. And this was like right off the hop. That's how fast his behavior went from being the support that I thought I had to just not giving a shit about me.
- [04:09]
Maddie
It's so scary that when people get that marriage or lock in the security of your relationship, they just flip a switch.
- [04:17]
Abby
Yeah, he's just gaming. He's still not going to work because Covid is still going on. They don't need him. So he's just, he's just gaming. And I am working full time at a very physical job. So any affection, any effort, like gone, just disappears. And pretty early on our routine is that he will game until like 2 in the morning. And I'm in bed by 10 because I have to be up and at work by 7:30.
- [04:49]
Maddie
Oh, so you like barely see each other?
- [04:50]
Abby
Yeah, so I am going to bed at 10, he's going to bed at 2. I get up at like 6, he gets up at noon. I work noon. I work all day and I come back and I take care of the dogs and I clean up all the dog piss and shit on the floor because he's not letting them out. And now we have two dogs because he wanted a second dog.
- [05:10]
Becca
Get up. Oh my God.
- [05:13]
Abby
Yeah. And I'm coming home, I'm taking care of that. And I'm making food and then call him to tell him food is ready and then he'll come eat and maybe spend like an hour with me. And then he goes back and games until 2am and a lot of times so I am gluten free. I have to be. I get very sick. He hates gluten free food. I'm a very good cook. Like I've been cooking since I was nine. I am very good at cooking. I make delicious food. He refuses to eat stuff that because it's gluten free. And so lots of times I have to make two meals, two things because I have to be able to eat and then he doesn't want the same thing. So we're having his and hers deep meals, but I'm making both and that is on top of my workday. And I work across town so it's like 20 minutes on a good date one way. So my days are long.
- [06:11]
Maddie
What is his temperament? Like, is he reactive if you don't do these things or is he just
- [06:18]
Becca
ignoring you completely, like just doesn't even care either way?
- [06:20]
Abby
It's kind of both. For the most part. I just get ignored. I am just living life on my own. If I bring up the like, hey, the dog's made a mess again. He was like, well, I didn't notice, like I didn't see. And starts to get mad at me for bringing it up or I start to clean up and he'll get mad because he was just about to do that. And me cleaning made him mad because I guess it made him feel bad apparently. And he was so messy that we had to move our bed so that it was facing a wall, like perpendicular to the room or the door to get into the room. So my side was next to the door and his was next to the wall because it was so messy, I couldn't handle it, like at least against the wall. I did not have to see his half of the room because I couldn't handle it. And I didn't want to constantly be cleaning up his mess. So I changed our bedroom set up so that I didn't have to see it and deal with it. And I would just like sweep half the room or clean half the room crazy because it was so dirty and I couldn't handle it. But then I would clean the rest of the apartment. So that's very quickly our routine. And his gaming is his priority. His people online, those are his priority. It got to the point where he told me that he preferred to spend time with his online buddies than with me and didn't find me enjoyable to be with by the end of, well,
- [07:53]
Becca
why'd you marry me, dipshit?
- [07:55]
Abby
I did ask him that. I don't know that I got a good answer.
- [08:00]
Becca
Oh, he didn't.
- [08:00]
Abby
Yeah, of Course not, no. But I did ask that. I'm like, why do we get married? Within a few weeks of marrying him and moving in together, I had the thought that crossed my mind and immediately got shoved down of if I wasn't married, I would leave. And it was such a clear thought and panic built in me as soon as I thought it of being like, fuck, I'm stuck. Like, I don't have anywhere to go and I'm married. And like, divorce isn't a. A thing that you're supposed to do. So I just have to figure this out. So this whole time, he's getting very emotionally distant. Also in the setup of marriage, according to my beliefs, I have set it up just how I'm supposed to. My income goes into a shared account. Everything I make goes into a shared account. And he is telling me that he's putting his payroll into the bank account whenever he gets it into his personal account, but he never switches it to automatically go into the joint account. But that's how I was raised. That's what you do when you're married. A man's in charge of finances. Yep. You just throw your money in there. Like, I'm not even supposed to be working. So this is bonus money, really. So that's what we do. And I never understand why or how, but the account is always empty. Like we have a set income or sent rate of 1200amonth, and then there's only two of us. And I know how to shop sales for good prices on groceries.
- [09:38]
Becca
Where the hell's our money going?
- [09:40]
Abby
I don't know. I never know. I cannot figure out why there is no money. Like there should be money. Before I met him, I was nearly at 10k in savings, and now I have nothing. Oh, I have to go.
- [09:55]
Maddie
You don't have access to the account?
- [09:56]
Abby
No, no. Gone because he needed a loan. At one point, he needed help buying a car. And then we got married. Like we're doing this trip. It's gone. Like he has borrowed a bunch that he never has given me back. And then we had all of these other expenses that obviously I had to help with because he didn't have money in his bank account. And this was something we were doing together. So it's important. So it's all gone. Yeah. And now this joint account is empty all the time. And I don't get it. Because I was making way less money living on my own, and I had far more money sitting in my bank account at the end of every month. Like I was growing it. It Wasn't just disappearing. But then I don't know what his finances look like because he hasn't fully disclosed them. He hasn't actually shared.
- [10:47]
Becca
And it's none of your business. You're just a woman.
- [10:50]
Abby
I am doing my part. I am doing what I'm supposed to do. So sometimes there's not even money for groceries. And I talk to him like, hey, like, we need. I need to go do groceries. Where? How come there's no money? And I don't get an answer. I just. Well, you're just gonna have to wait. But then he's getting like a green screen for his gaming room, so somehow his personal spending is fine. But I can't go get like a dog toy for my dogs. I can't go get groceries because there's like 80 bucks in the bank account and I don't understand. And like, my car has paid off, but it's old. It's kind of falling apart. I've been fixing it as we go.
- [11:36]
Maddie
Don't worry, he's a mechanic.
- [11:37]
Abby
Yeah, I've been fixing it as I go. I actually replaced my entire muffler on that car by myself. But then you, yourself, you, Abby.
- [11:46]
Maddie
I'm obsessed with you.
- [11:48]
Abby
Like, I am very capable, but then I'm in this role where I hated that I'm not supposed to be. Yeah, well, I'm not supposed to be so that, like, skill is gone or that, like, ability isn't there. And then he's not fixing my car and he convinces me we should just sell it and get a new car. We still have no money.
- [12:10]
Becca
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- [13:48]
Abby
So we now go get another car. And he claims it for himself, this one, and tells me I can have the other one. So there's one that's on payments and that's the one that I get. Okay, we go buy another car and there's no money. And now my credit is occupied because I have a car in my name already on payments. So we put it on my line of credit. What else would we do? And now that's his car. So now I have a car on payments. I have a car on my line of credit. I have no access to my own money. Well, I have access, but there's none there. So I don't know. But this is how we are now. That's kind of what my life is like. I have no money anymore. I don't know what to do. I don't know where it's going. I feel stuck. And if I do spend, I do get questioned on that too. But he can get whatever he wants. So it's really weird.
- [14:42]
Maddie
And you can't start saving money because he kind of knows how much you make and how much to expect, I imagine.
- [14:49]
Abby
Yeah. And I do try several times. Several times I try to build my own little slush fund. So I try to put money aside. I will get close to a thousand dollars and then something happens and then we need that money. And again, I don't know how or where it was all going. And I don't know if he knew that I was trying to build a little slush fund. He must have like figured or something. And then my immediate reaction was like, well, this is our life. And like, obviously I will give this money if we need to get out of this bind. And my credit is on the line. So I try repeatedly to build myself up a little slush fund. And it never works. Like I can never get past a thousand dollars. And a thousand dollars is not A lot in this world. So that is. That is where I'm sitting with finances. He's getting emotionally abusive. He's now financially abusive. And it just keeps escalating because now, now, like, I'm frustrated. Things aren't going great. This isn't what I pictured. This isn't the life that I wanted. This isn't what we talked about when we were engaged. And I'm learning to speak up for myself more by this point. So I will bring things up and it just turns into verbal attacks. Like anything that I bring up is wrong. And that's not like, how dare I question him? How dare I. Like, he's trying his best. Why am I not being more patient and more kind with him? But then I get the criticism from him every time for anything small or that's not really a thing. If the dog shit on the floor, somehow it's my fault. And cleaning is an attack on him now, but I still have to do it. It was mostly cleaning at first. I would start cleaning and then he would get angry with me and lash out because it was making him feel bad and felt like I was judging him for not cleaning up behind himself. And I was just cleaning up the apartment. And that's. That's kind of a moment that sticks where like, that happened a lot and that's what really first started happening. Or like, I'm very playful with people. Like, I will joke around and lightly tease about things and sometimes they go too far. But I've been working on that. But like, I mean, we all, yeah,
- [17:19]
Maddie
can relate to that.
- [17:21]
Abby
Like, but one time I kind of poke fun at him and it's a huge reaction. So I convinced him to go with me to the dog park. And it's a little bit cold that day. And he's like, eh, it's cold. I don't want to. But I convinced him to come with me. Like, I want to spend time together. I never see you. Let's just go for half an hour. And he comes with me and we get to the park and like, flip of a switch, he's talking to people. He's charming, he's charismatic. He's all of the things that I first met. And he's talking to these people and I'm dealing with the dogs and cleaning up after them. And then I walk up as he's telling them how much he loves winter camping. Like he goes winter camping all the time. And I'm like, oh my goodness, like, you didn't even want to come up that day.
- [18:14]
Maddie
Months.
- [18:15]
Abby
You didn't even want to come to the dog park today. You don't go winter camping. Just, like, very playful, very teasing. But it got a bad reaction. Just my light playfulness. We left very quickly after that. We got in the car, and he screamed at me the entire way home. What he's saying. How dare you disrespect me in front of people? These people will never see me the same again. You made it look like I'm a liar. You made me look bad. Like, just screaming at me that I've destroyed his image. And I kind of push back and go, like, they're not even from here. We will never see these people again.
- [18:57]
Maddie
Like, also, you did lie and you
- [18:59]
Abby
don't go into camping. No. Just screamed, how dare I? It was such an onslaught of abuse. And then I'm scared. We go home, and he goes straight into his gaming room, and I'm just alone and shaken up. Like, wow. And that continued to get worse after that. I couldn't talk. Like, whatever I said was taken as aggressive. He would react poorly. He would get so angry. Like, I had to monitor everything I said just to not get that type of reaction. I had to be careful and walk on eggshells and shrink myself again because I knew what I needed to do to be safe. Yeah. I mean, the verbal abuse is kind of a weird one because you don't realize that it's abuse right away. Like, that really took perspective in time. I mean, I would say I wouldn't have clocked it as verbal abuse even longer, maybe because it felt familiar. Because most of growing up was just. There was very few nice words. There was very little kindness said towards me. So things that made me feel small or kind of crushed my confidence was very familiar. So it was just like, oh, this is just how people talk to me. This is normal. And it happens over and over again before you really realize, like, oh, actually, I shouldn't be treated this way. These words that he's saying aren't just mean. Their. Their own purpose. In order to keep me where he wanted me, he had to keep me small. He had to keep me just crushed. And so by using his words to hurt my feelings or just kind of confuse me with what he was saying and why it didn't feel right. Like, by. By doing that, he was keeping me small on purpose so that I wouldn't have the strength to fight back or maybe the confidence to figure out why I didn't feel right.
- [21:02]
Becca
Abby, that must have been so hard. I'm so sorry.
- [21:06]
Abby
It was such A blow to feel like I was doing better. And I knew I had left that once before already and here I am in that again. Once again, I am being completely controlled and monitored and I don't have that freedom that I had been working so hard to get.
- [21:26]
Maddie
How did that make you feel about yourself and your self worth?
- [21:30]
Abby
I kind of sank back into that familiar dark pit of just disconnecting from my internal me because again, by then I knew that's safe, I can do that, I am safe. If I do that, nobody can get me in there and I will just continue doing all of the right things so that he loves me and takes care of me. And this is my bed. I lie in it. Because divorce is not on the table.
- [22:03]
Maddie
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- [23:39]
Abby
It was crazy because I would talk to him and, like, even ask him permission to do things, and he would say yes. And then as soon as I would do the thing, he would take it all back and get angry with me, which I cannot believe. I can't believe I used to ask permission. Like, I wanted to try weed for the first time. So I asked permission, and he was like, okay, yeah, go for it. And then so I went and bought, like, a little chocolate edible and nothing crazy. And then after I bought it, I asked again. I was like, are you sure this is okay with you? And he was like, yeah, go for it. So then I. One night, quiet night, no responsibilities, Everything is done. I take this edible, and then it settles in. And then he gets so angry with me.
- [24:29]
Maddie
Like, once you've taken it.
- [24:30]
Abby
Once I've taken it. And now I'm high, and it's my first time ever being high. I've never done anything like this before. So this whole conversation feels like it's happening at a snail's pace. If anyone's been high before, you know that. But he is just getting mad at me. He is getting so angry. I'm like, I can't believe you would do weed. I don't think he said it that
- [24:52]
Maddie
way, but the manipulation, it's so manipulative.
- [24:56]
Abby
You're gonna become a loser. You're just gonna become dependent on weed. Like, you're just becoming a loser stoner. And I am standing there trying to hold myself together because it also feels like every word is taking five minutes to get out of his mouth and out of mine. And I. I'm trying so hard not to be high. Like, I'm trying so hard to talk normally. I don't know if I was or not.
- [25:20]
Maddie
That's forced. Worse. But to be berated in that moment is, like, very jarring. We're laughing, but that's crazy.
- [25:27]
Abby
Well, it's funny because I remember how my whole body was just like, this is crazy.
- [25:33]
Becca
Be normal. It's like trying not to laugh, and then you just bust out laughing.
- [25:37]
Abby
It's really funny. But it was just this crazy thing of, like, I asked, like, you said you were fine with this, and now you're getting angry with me, and it is too late for me to do anything. Like, I am. I'm high, and I have to wait for this to go away.
- [25:53]
Maddie
Bitch.
- [25:54]
Becca
I'm high.
- [25:55]
Maddie
Yeah, this is happening.
- [25:56]
Abby
Yeah. So those were incidents that would happen. Like, no matter what I Did I could do everything right completely, a hundred percent right, and it was still wrong, and I would still get backlash, which that was really hard because what do you do when you're trying so hard to do everything right and it's still wrong? It just felt like my heart was breaking a lot because I thought I was supposed to be safe. And that is now my life. And then on top of that, he's now distancing me from everybody. I am now turning even. I already don't have much community or anything in my corner because my family is gone. I don't talk to them at all. By this point, there's no contact. My religious community is gone. So I don't have much. I only have what he has. And then his friends like me. So then I get isolated from his friends, too. He starts to tell me that his friends don't like me. They never invite him to be anywhere anymore because of me.
- [27:03]
Becca
Ew.
- [27:03]
Abby
He's only like, he'll go to stuff, but I can't go. And he's saying, I don't get to go to things anymore because you're not invited. And I don't want to make you feel bad. So I'm being told constantly, no one likes you, and I am losing out on my life because of you, and it's your fault. And then I am getting monitored. He is keeping track of what I'm doing, where I am, how long I'm there, confronting me if he thinks I'm gone longer than I should have been. Just constantly.
- [27:40]
Becca
Oh, like he's controlling.
- [27:43]
Maddie
Controlling, yeah.
- [27:45]
Abby
Constantly keeping track of where I am. I stopped to take a phone call from my sister while driving home from work one day and got home a couple minutes late. And it was just a big blowout reaction of, where was I? What were you doing? Why did it take you so long? Why were you talking to her? What did you talk about? There was not a thing I could do without it being looked at and scrutinized and confronted and attacked if it wasn't what he wanted.
- [28:14]
Maddie
Wow.
- [28:14]
Abby
And that was in my communication at this point. I was on an online board for people who had left the church and were kind of just figuring out where they were and what they were.
- [28:25]
Becca
Oh, for community. Okay.
- [28:27]
Abby
Yeah. So it was really nice. We were both on there. So then he would. Honestly, yeah, he could see what I was saying. He was watching everything and interjecting and all of that stuff. So every aspect of my life just fully controlled and monitored, and I had no more freedom to exist. And I was doing really well at my job. Like, my boss loved me. I was succeeding at it. But that was the only place in my life I had any. Any level of satisfaction or happiness. Everything else was controlled to the. To the max. There is no room for me to exist anymore. Even my dog that I love. And this dog has been mine from day one. He fully chose me. I am his human. He does not care about Caleb. And he gets angry and aggressive about that, too. He ends up being. Yeah, really jealous of the dog.
- [29:35]
Maddie
Oh, my God.
- [29:36]
Becca
Are you serious? Get out of here. Goodness.
- [29:39]
Abby
Yep. Yeah. So the fact that the dog likes
- [29:42]
Maddie
me as a problem, were you recognizing this as abuse, or how did you classify all of this?
- [29:49]
Abby
I was not happy. I was just feeling like, this isn't what I wanted. This isn't the life that I pictured. This isn't how I wanted my life to go. Like, I've worked so hard to get away from so much shit, and now, like, I'm not happy. I'm still not happy, and I'm still feeling so alone. So that's. That's kind of how I classified it. It was just. This was not what I expected. It's not what I wanted. So I did bring up to him that I would like us to try therapy because things aren't going great. We're fighting lots. And by fighting, like, it's him attacking me mainly. So he agreed to therapy. It took some convincing. And because he's military, he has access to all sorts of mental health resources, so he picks out a therapist for us. And he specifically picked out a religious therapist. And clearly not a good therapist because she brings that in with her as soon as he tells her that I have walked away from the church and I'm not religious. I can feel how everything now is my fault. And every single session, I come out of there and it's all my fault. And it's what I have to do to fix things and what I need to be trying and what I need to be communicating. Like, everything from those sessions is accumulated into. Here is what Abby needs to do
- [31:27]
Maddie
and how does she respond? Do you. Are you able to be honest about, like, he doesn't help me with any thing around the house, with the dogs, with anything.
- [31:34]
Becca
Well, he's a man.
- [31:35]
Maddie
Even say that.
- [31:36]
Abby
Yeah, I.
- [31:38]
Maddie
And she's just like.
- [31:38]
Abby
Again, I think it's the point. I didn't have the language for it. Like, I hadn't done therapy at all at this point, so I don't think I had the language to be like, he's not supporting me. He is getting angry with me all the time. What I said was more along the lines of, we're having troubles communicating. We don't seem to understand things the same way.
- [32:01]
Maddie
Well, imagine how Maddie's gonna get if you bring something up in therapy and then you go home. Like, there's a lot of abuse that comes out of couples therapy, and we
- [32:11]
Abby
didn't even go anywhere. This was all video appointments.
- [32:14]
Maddie
Oh, that's.
- [32:15]
Abby
So as soon as Covid. Oh. Cause we were alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was no like, in between. And then he starts to weaponize therapy speak, because that is what people like that will do. So outside of sessions, I'm now getting the controlling, manipulative wording that's adding to all of the attacks and the control that's already there. So that's not working. I think we only did, like, six or eight sessions. It wasn't very many. Outside of that is when I started going to therapy myself, because I am the problem. So I.
- [32:55]
Becca
So you thought you needed help.
- [32:58]
Abby
Yeah. And that. That probably saved my life, is going to therapy by myself for the first time and getting to just talk about my life so far and learning how to talk about it and how to put words into it and then how to identify my feelings, because I did not know how to identify what I was feeling. I didn't have words for it. So learning to recognize my emotions and name them helped a lot in figuring out how to approach life, how to live life.
- [33:33]
Becca
And your therapist individually was supportive of you and what you were doing. Like, they were encouraging. That's really good.
- [33:39]
Abby
Yeah, she was really good. I. I picked her. That one I picked. And that definitely started to help me figure things out and think and identify what was going on. But the couples therapy, not so good. Every session ended with me walking away thinking that I was broken and I was the problem. But then I would be like, I don't know what else to do. Like, I'm doing everything I know how to do. So I don't know how I'm still the problem. So I didn't. Didn't know how else to cope with it.
- [34:19]
Becca
You guys, I have lost a lot of weight, 175lbs over the last couple years. And when I tell you I have a soft body and I love skims undies, they have solved the problem of squishing, where I don't want to be squished. I don't know if that makes sense,
- [34:39]
Maddie
but if you have a mom, it makes total sense.
- [34:41]
Becca
If you Have a mom bod or you've lost weight or you or just
- [34:44]
Maddie
like a normal bod or you're just like. How uncomfortable are most bras and underwear? They really are.
- [34:51]
Becca
They're very squeezy. I cannot believe that I finally found a brand that does not squeeze me where I don't want to be.
- [34:58]
Abby
Squ.
- [34:59]
Becca
I really, really love how comfortable skims is for intimates. Their bras and undies are just amazing and they have changed the game.
- [35:10]
Maddie
I have definitely talked to many friends who have similar just changes in their body or maybe they have really big boobs and then can't find a bra that really fits. And skims not only has great fits for different types of bodies, but I also really appreciate the color range, which is something more brands need to be doing.
- [35:26]
Becca
Yeah.
- [35:26]
Maddie
And then everything's comfortable. I use their everyday cotton T shirt bra, which is just like.
- [35:31]
Becca
I love that. Easy. Yes.
- [35:34]
Maddie
Yeah, it looks good on under anything. We're big fans, so you should shop everyday cotton and all of our favorite bras and underwear@skims.com and after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.
- [35:54]
Abby
The cycles of the fighting and the attacks, like the verbal attack, got shorter and shorter as they do. And then there started to be some of those classic signs that things were going to turn physical soon. The one that stuck out to me is he started to get aggressive with my dog. He would hit my dog because my dog was my dog. Like I was his person 100%. And I was a representation of that. Like it was a way to hit something that wasn't me. But with the anger that he had towards me or whatever feeling he had, I don't know what it was.
- [36:34]
Maddie
Oh, God. How did. What did you do?
- [36:37]
Abby
I started to get scared. And during that time, my sister, I was telling her things I would call her while I went to the dog park by myself because then I was doing something I was allowed to do, but managing to do it in a safe way. And she started to be like, hey, like this doesn't seem very safe anymore. Kind of seems like things are ramping up and I was taking it in but unsure what to do with it because it was just such a. Such a strange concept to me that I was in an abusive relationship. I didn't quite know what to do with it. And then I spoke to a friend, a therapist friend from this online board. I was a part of he and I spoke on the phone extensively where I told him, like, look, I need a third party objective. I need someone to just listen to this and tell me what you think. And I trust you to be honest. And he. He was so good about it. He didn't call out the abuse specifically, but he did say, like, would you bring kids into this in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? Do you want to still be in this place? Is this what you want your life to be long term? Can you live with it? And that framing really helped me look at it more objectively and think about my future self, think about kids and vulnerable people and go, do I want this? Is this something I would want for future me for my kids? And obviously it was a no. And another thing that he told me, this therapist friend was, you get one life. You get one life and you get to enjoy that life. You don't have to stay in something you don't enjoy. And that's such a good reminder at any point of, like, why are you staying if you are having such a hard life? Like, if things are not good, why are you staying? Do you want this forever? And obviously the answer was no.
- [38:47]
Becca
It was buried. It blasted into your head that you're not allowed to leave and you're not allowed to get divorced and you're stuck there.
- [38:53]
Maddie
You're not allowed to do anything for yourself.
- [38:56]
Abby
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly what I was raised in was exactly what I ended up in. And I was raised to marry Caleb. I was raised to stay with him. Everything about my upbringing tried to erase my individuality, my ability to survive life in a meaningful way. So I'm not surprised at all that I ended up with someone like him. If it wasn't him, it would have been some other stupid piece of man. And at the time, I understand why I went for it like, he was the lesser of two evils. He seemed a lot better than my family. And it meant not being alone. And I had spent so much of my life alone already that, like, of course, of course that seemed appealing. Of course I didn't want to be alone anymore. That's part of our nature. That's what right we are born with. And so I don't just see the relationship as the starting of my story, because it's not. It's just it was the outcome of what I was raised to be in. So the context and the reframing too. But do you want. This was just so, so, so helpful in that moment.
- [40:15]
Maddie
But then what, like, what do you do with that now that you've come to that conclusion is the hard part.
- [40:20]
Abby
Now I've got all of this, and I am looking at my finances, and I don't have that slush fund. There's like, $200 in the bank account at that point. I don't know what to do. I kind of just sit with it for a while. And all the while, my sister is still going, hey, this is getting worse. This is not safe. So I. I start to kind of plan. Not plan, but, like, see what I can do. Prepare privately. Yeah. My sister did call me with her husband on the line, and they were like, look, you leave. You come here. You come stay with us. We will pay for you to come here. We will cover your gas. Like, you can live with us. Just get out.
- [41:07]
Becca
Get out.
- [41:09]
Abby
Yeah. And that was. That was a big point of just like, okay.
- [41:16]
Becca
Was that relieving to hear this come from your sister?
- [41:19]
Abby
It was terrifying, really.
- [41:22]
Becca
I bet.
- [41:23]
Abby
And a bit of a relief because I didn't have anywhere to go. I don't have family. Everyone but the sister. I don't have any money to go somewhere else. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go. I had nothing. I had nothing to my name or any idea how to get out of it. As I'm seeing the cycle shorten and shorten, but at the end of every cycle, there's that little window where you're like, well, maybe things will get better. And so I kind of got stuck in that cycle of myself, of my own, of, well, maybe it'll get better, and maybe this time it'll be okay. And then it's bad. Being stuck in that cycle kept me there for a while. But then having my sister telling me, like, hey, this is not good, and having a therapist friend who was objective because he knew both of us, just being like, hey, this is seeming bad. Like, do you. Are you sure this is what you want? Was helpful. And then there was a point where the cycle was 24 hours. It was within 24 hours. Just everything was repeating. So he, at that point, was occasionally going back to work. One day, I was home. He was at work. So in the morning, I found all of my important documents because he had my birth certificate, my passport, all of that. I found it all. I packed it into a little basket, and I put a few clothes in a backpack and a couple things, dog things. I put it in the trunk of my car where he wouldn't see it. And then he came home. And it was immediately conflict, just immediate. And I Think. I asked him, like, is this going to change? Can we figure out a way past this? And he said he wasn't sure. And I said, well, I think I'm going to go see my sister for a few days to give us some space and then we can figure it out. We can figure out what to do from there. And he was so angry, but let me go. And I started driving and. And I took my dog. We got in the car and I left, fully thinking I was going to go back. And it took me three days. I left in the middle of a Thursday afternoon, and it took me three days to get to my sister because she lived 24 hours away. It was such an awful three days. I almost turned around so many times. I would go from sobbing and crying to just numb. And I would be just about to turn around and I would call my sister and be like, am I fucking up? Like, am I doing this wrong? What am I doing? And she would say, just come here. Come see me. Just figure out what you're thinking, and then you can go back if you want to. And he was texting and calling during that time and being like, I don't want you to go. You could come back. And just the appeals of the softness that he's showing now, just trying to get me to go back.
- [44:38]
Becca
It touches your heart.
- [44:40]
Abby
Yeah. I ended up putting on just a silly little podcast that was about random stupid stuff, and that's what helped me just keep going. And I left with nothing. I never touched the bank account again after that. So I used my credit card to get to my sister's, but I had nothing to my name, I had no money, so I still thought I was going back. I got to my sister's on the Saturday night and I still thought I was going back on the Sunday. Like, I'm shell shocked at this point. The first few weeks at my sister's, like, I am just a shell. I just kind of sit in a chair and I exist. And that's about it. I wasn't eating very much or anything. I was just existing. But on the Sunday, I really, like, look at my emails, look at the bank account, everything. And I see that on the Thursday night, there is a purchase from OnlyFans from our bank account. I texted him right away, being like, what the fuck? You left me? I was upset, I was lonely, I was sad. So, yeah, I turned to somebody else from comfort. And so it was still my fault that he.
- [45:59]
Maddie
Was he mad that you saw it and confronted him or did he want. I feel like, he wanted you to see that.
- [46:04]
Abby
I think it was fully on purpose.
- [46:06]
Maddie
Yeah, I do too.
- [46:08]
Abby
I wouldn't be surprised that there was only fans purchases from before when we were together. He just chose to make that one from that account.
- [46:17]
Maddie
Yes.
- [46:17]
Becca
Yep.
- [46:18]
Abby
Yeah, I'm fairly certain there was stuff going on in his little gaming dungeon there that I don't know about. So, yeah, that kicks off all sorts of things that I now learn about. So, like, there's the only fans that I'm flabbergasted over. And then he, that same night, logged into that online account board that we were both a part of and started to just say how I had abandoned him. I left him. He was so angry. And then there was this one woman on there, and she's such a sweetheart. She's such a beautiful soul. And she had left an abusive marriage a few years before, and he just attacked her and told her how it was all her fault, what had happened. And, like, just verbal barrage.
- [47:14]
Becca
Oh, my God.
- [47:16]
Abby
And we don't even know her that well.
- [47:18]
Maddie
Let, like, you just, like, let him be alone for a while. And everything comes out like he doesn't need help making himself look like an asshole.
- [47:27]
Abby
Oh, no. He just. He went right, Right into it as soon as I left the door. So the more I was the way. The more I could see the abuse. I could see just how much he had been crushing me in every single way that he could. And I heard how he attacked her, and then I saw my dog come back to life. Because when we got there, his tail was kind of, like, down in between his legs. And then over the next week, few weeks, it just, like, slowly curled back up. And then he was so happy.
- [48:03]
Becca
Oh, no way. Because dogs always know. Dogs and kids, man, they always know.
- [48:08]
Maddie
When you were at work and he was with him by himself, it makes me sad to think. Think about what might happen.
- [48:14]
Becca
Me too.
- [48:16]
Abby
I don't know how bad it was. I know that my dog hates people with hats on, so that's something.
- [48:22]
Becca
That's an interesting connection.
- [48:25]
Abby
Yeah.
- [48:26]
Becca
Wow.
- [48:27]
Abby
It was. Honestly, my deciding factor was seeing my dog come back to life and was like, wow, I can't go back for the sake of my dog. I cannot go back to him.
- [48:38]
Becca
Well, it was just another sign. It was just another proof. It was just another, you know, something else just proved to you.
- [48:45]
Maddie
Why do you think the final straw was about your dog, about this other woman, and not about yourself?
- [48:51]
Abby
I don't think I fully saw the abuse and how much he had hurt me yet. I could See it in my dog because it was physically there. I could see him come back. And it took longer for me to understand what I had been through. Also.
- [49:09]
Maddie
That's interesting. Makes sense.
- [49:11]
Abby
But those two factors were what helped me stay away because I was still considering going back. So after I left, he kept messaging and calling. I eventually, after one really bad phone call where he spent an hour just going at me, I stopped taking phone calls. And I made sure everything was in writing because it was getting so much more aggressive. Then he even said he was going to drive out and come see me. And then I was scared. I even had to tell my employer because I got a job within. I got there on the 8th, and I had a job by the 19th. So.
- [49:50]
Maddie
Unbelievable.
- [49:51]
Abby
I had to tell my employers because I was like, hey, here's a picture of this guy. I am going through a pretty bad breakup here. Divorce. And if he shows up, you cannot let him near me. You have to stop him, because I am not safe. So that was. That was awful. I did not enjoy having to disclose my personal life to any.
- [50:14]
Becca
Like, that sucks.
- [50:15]
Abby
I was. Yeah. But I had to because I was still a shell of myself at that point. Like, my sister has said how she's never seen me in such a bad place where I was pale and I lost so much weight and just not me. Not alive, really. Just there. Yeah. He kept messaging me. He started to claim that, like, I had abandoned him. I abandoned our marriage. It's my fault. He tried to guilt me so hard by being like, I was going through stuff, and I didn't feel like I could tell you yet, but I was going to, like, oh, shut up, buddy. Like, what are you, 12 months? We had therapy and was months and months of space where I gave, like, I gave you so much space to talk to me, and I asked you to talk to me and you didn't. But no, it was. It was my fault that I left before he was ready to deal with his stuff and tell me about it.
- [51:11]
Maddie
Also, even if he has stuff, which I'm like, he doesn't. Does that justify in terms of the behavior? Like, you don't get to abuse someone just because you're going through something.
- [51:21]
Becca
Yeah.
- [51:23]
Abby
Is definitely a manipulation tactic to see if I could go back.
- [51:27]
Maddie
Yep.
- [51:28]
Abby
So it took me a couple weeks, but I told him officially of like, I am not coming back. We are done. We are going to get divorced. And that took a while to work up the courage to say it. And then he switched again to, no more wanting me back. Now it Was, okay, well, you owe me this money. And we still had two months left on our lease. So he was like, well, you have to pay me for a month because our lease isn't up, and I'm going to have to get somebody else to live with me. I can't afford to live here by myself. And I was like, well, we have two months left, and I paid for first and last, so we're good there.
- [52:06]
Becca
And I also started here with $10,000. So you're on your own, buddy.
- [52:10]
Abby
Yeah. And then both of our cars were in my name and in his name. They were both in each other's names. Everything financially was on mine. Now we have to figure out how to split that. And I'm trying to figure out if there's a way that I can get money back because he has to buy out the car. I told him I would take over the payments for the car. I took the expensive one. And then he had to pay me for the car on my line of credit. And he fought me so hard, and I had so little fight in me. I did not have very much. So I really. I think I maybe got $3,000 from him. It was supposed to be six at least. So then I left, and now I have about $20,000 in debt. And I wish I'd fought back harder, but I just didn't have it in me. I did not have any. Any oomph or energy or capacity to fight back on anything.
- [53:15]
Maddie
And that makes total sense. When was this that you left? What year was this?
- [53:20]
Abby
So that was in July 2021. I left.
- [53:24]
Maddie
Okay. Yeah. So that was a year or so.
- [53:27]
Abby
About eight months.
- [53:28]
Maddie
Eight months, right? That's what you said, Eight months.
- [53:31]
Abby
Yeah. Eight months before we got married and eight months after we got married. That lasted.
- [53:38]
Maddie
Your sisters, you're left with this debt, but you're moving forward with divorce.
- [53:43]
Abby
Yeah. So I have very little. Nothing left to my name. I have to rebuild again, and this is the second time in my adult years.
- [53:53]
Becca
But you gotta admit, a lot of people can't leave. Like, you did a great job. You're like, I kept wanting to go back. I kept wanting to go back. But you didn't. And I think that's incredible. That's not easy.
- [54:04]
Abby
It was very hard. And I. I am so lucky that I got out so fast. Like, it was escalating so quickly. And I know it takes very fast. Yeah, I know it takes months and years and many tries usually. So I consider myself so lucky that I got out so quickly and relatively painless yeah. Relatively terrible word to use there, but.
- [54:34]
Becca
No, but you did amazing.
- [54:36]
Abby
So we separated in July 2021. In Canada, we have a year separation obligatory. Wait, you cannot get divorced before a year of being separated.
- [54:46]
Becca
Oh, I heard they have that in some places.
- [54:48]
Abby
And I was like, it is ridiculous. And then he was not cooperative, so I had to.
- [54:54]
Becca
Of course he wasn't.
- [54:55]
Abby
The paperwork. Of course I had to do the paperwork myself and serve him. And that's a little bit of a longer process.
- [55:03]
Maddie
Did he stay in your apartment?
- [55:05]
Abby
I. Not sure. I think he moved shortly after. Probably when our lease moved.
- [55:10]
Maddie
Who cares? As long as you're not paying for him anymore. I don't care where he went.
- [55:15]
Abby
You don't know. And then the divorce was finalized in February of 2023. So it was like two years from the time we started dating to when we officially got divorced.
- [55:29]
Maddie
What. What went through your head when you saw that it was finalized?
- [55:32]
Abby
Oh, fuck. Yeah. I screenshotted it and sent it to absolutely everyone that I could again do you to celebrate my divorce. I don't know how. I'm not overly proud of this and I would not do it again. I think it was healing at the time, but I sent him a fake Google review just as a private message to him. Like, 0 out of 3 stars, do not recommend. And a few other things not enjoyable in bed because I threw those things back at him because he said that to me. Wait,
- [56:11]
Becca
listen. I am down for this level of pain, Abby.
- [56:13]
Maddie
This is like, yeah, it's harmless.
- [56:15]
Abby
And I would not do it again because I don't think it was worth it. But I never put it anywhere public. I never spoke about him publicly. But in response to that, he told me to never message him again and that he. And then he threatened defamation against me. And that was pretty much the last of talking to him. He was in a new relationship within a few months of me leaving. So when I sent him that Google review, I also sent it to her and included, just to be like, hey, just so you know, there is a reason I left. Here are some behaviors that he does, and if he does them, just know that this is a pattern. It is not just something to excuse away. And wow, I did get the simultaneous message from both of them being like, never contact us again.
- [57:09]
Maddie
Right. Because, you know, he's controlling her. But what. I actually think that you planted a seed for her.
- [57:15]
Abby
She did just leave him this past Christmas. And I am so proud of her. I have not heard from her, but I'm so proud of her for So I know he's back in the same area as his family, still military, and that's, that's what I know. He's heartbroken, so good for him.
- [57:34]
Becca
But. Okay, but can we get back to the good stuff? Where are you now?
- [57:39]
Abby
So I am still living in the same town that I ran away to. Yeah, I didn't mean to stay here, but again, my dog loved it. He just is very much bush life. We live so far out of the beaten path. Like the closest Walmart is three hours away, if that gives you context. So we're very far, far away off the beaten path. But I really love it and I get to. I really, with a lot of therapy, have really gotten to know and be myself and discover the truest version of myself for the first time. And I, like, I'm 30 now and I feel like I just started my life four years ago. And that's frustrating sometimes that feels like I'm very behind on life and everything. But. But I'm not. Like, you're not. There is no.
- [58:34]
Becca
Or perhaps you can look at it as. You got a fresh start.
- [58:37]
Abby
Yeah. Yeah. And there's no timeline to life. And like, it's really just about where you are and how you're doing. And I get to do so many things that I always wanted to do. Like I. I have a motorcycle because I always wanted a motorcycle.
- [58:53]
Becca
Now she's a biker. Baddies. Okay. I like, like that because we have
- [58:58]
Abby
so much snow out here. I got a snowmobile a few years ago and I actually drag race my snowmobile. So I spent a month of the year drag racing.
- [59:08]
Becca
Oh my God, you're so.
- [59:10]
Abby
It's just the best thing ever. And it's just.
- [59:13]
Becca
I love this for us.
- [59:13]
Abby
Like, I get to enjoy life. Yeah. Wait for motorcycle season.
- [59:18]
Maddie
And then as far as your upbringing affecting your education and your career, how have you been navigating all of that?
- [59:27]
Abby
So I was actually the manager of an adult learning center for a couple years. And while I was there. Yeah, while I was there, I got my high school diploma after getting a university degree. So it's not really helpful at this point. But it was really cool to just do it for the sake of doing it.
- [59:48]
Maddie
Yeah.
- [59:49]
Becca
It's something you can say. I did. I got my high school diploma trauma,
- [59:51]
Abby
and I've done so much to relearn correct history and science instead of the religious that I was taught. And I'm working on a mental health and addictions program right now because I would love to go into therapy or counseling again. The Theme throughout my life has been that I just. I really just want to see people succeed and help them.
- [60:15]
Becca
You said in the beginning you wanted to help people.
- [60:17]
Maddie
Yeah, because I think some people walk away from these relationships hardened. And I'm so glad to hear that you are not because they took advantage
- [60:25]
Abby
of the beautiful quality.
- [60:27]
Maddie
No, I know. I love. I mean. And you believe in love. I mean, we have heard a few noises behind you coming from a certain someone.
- [60:37]
Becca
What was that, Abby? What are the noises?
- [60:40]
Abby
That was my partner. He is working on his skid steer because that's how redneck we are.
- [60:47]
Becca
I'm sorry. Okay.
- [60:48]
Abby
He's replacing a track on his skid steer. So he.
- [60:51]
Becca
Was that an animal?
- [60:54]
Abby
No, it's like a. It's like a tractor. Like a funny looking tractor.
- [60:59]
Maddie
Either way, he's done more in the recording of this podcast than your ex ever did. The fact that he's out working on something, like doing something. I want to hear how you opened up to him and felt like you could trust someone again.
- [61:15]
Abby
He was one of the first people I met and talked to once I moved here. He heard my story and he didn't care because a lot of times you hear my story and people go into the trauma porn of it, and that's yucky. And he just was kind and supportive and he was completely there for me when I was going through the worst of it. And from there it's just has been that consistent support for each other and
- [61:46]
Maddie
she found each other at the right time.
- [61:49]
Abby
Yeah. And I. I still have my rough days because, like, sure, again, it's only really been like four or five years and it was 25 years of drama before that. So in those moments, like, she's so kind about it of being like, you're doing great. Like, don't stress over it.
- [62:08]
Becca
That's awesome. Oh my gosh, Abby, thank you for sharing this. That's so incredible. I'm so proud of you and I'm just so grateful. Thank you so much.
- [62:16]
Maddie
Really,
- [62:28]
Becca
That. Okay. We just. This. These high control groups and how it shapes your brain and what you're willing to accept. That's kind of incredible. It's wild to me. I know it makes you wonder if you weren't exposed to something like that, would you be less likely to accept some accept behavior like that from people.
- [62:51]
Maddie
Yeah. I think there's so many parallels in the way that you're groomed in a cult and the way that you're groomed in an abusive relationship and you put them together. I don't know that anybody could hear this story and not completely understand why it turned out the way that it did. And I'm. I mean, I guess we could start by saying how happy I am that she is in a better place, in a better relationship. I mean, we were joking that the partner she's with now is like doing more for their relationship in the time that we recorded the podcast. Cause he was out like working on something in the garage than Caleb did in their entire relationship. But I mean, aside from him being like a deadbeat, it's. The abuse is really the most important thing I think, to talk about because it's so true. She was raised to be in an abusive relationship essentially and do it. She didn't have. I like what you said. Yeah, I wrote down at one point. I mean, there's so much we could talk about. But even as she was like growing up and kind of understanding what was going on, she talked about how she just didn't have the words to communicate that what she had been raised in was abuse. It took such a long time for her to see it that way.
- [63:59]
Becca
Right.
- [64:00]
Maddie
And I think that goes into same thing in the relationship. Like when you're in it, you don't see it. And even when you see it, you still don't fully see it. It's like, so you have to be so distant and have so many other experiences in order to unlearn everything. And I feel like she spent so much of her, what, first quarter of her life unlearning religious upbringing, unlearning what love looks like. And that's exhausting.
- [64:27]
Becca
Yes, very exhausting. And when you're in that place, it's almost like accepting what is comfortable because it's what you say, like it's safe because it's comfortable. It's what you know. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, just overall interesting what we're willing to accept and what.
- [64:45]
Maddie
Yeah, we're conditioned to accept. Really.
- [64:47]
Becca
Conditioned? Yes, that's a good word.
- [64:48]
Abby
Yeah.
- [64:49]
Becca
What we're conditioned to accept. And it. And this guy, like with the, just like with the animal abuse and the fact that he's willing to hit the dog and.
- [64:59]
Maddie
Ah, well, that's a sign that's become up so many times and I hate it so much where it's like if you don't have empathy for animals, it just transitions to you not having that empathy for human.
- [65:10]
Becca
Yeah. And another thing I want to bring up too is the waiting period in Canada for being able to get divorced. But it's also in Some states too.
- [65:21]
Maddie
One year you have to wait a year.
- [65:23]
Becca
Yeah, you have to wait before you're allowed to get divorced. And I think that's horrible. Like you're basically holding someone hostage. That's terrible.
- [65:31]
Maddie
Especially given that if you're in a situation where you don't want to have contact with the person, it's just tying you to them. Anyone who lives in a place where that's been a factor in maybe your divorce or just somebody you know. I'm curious your thoughts about it because that feels wrong.
- [65:45]
Becca
I don't like just like why would you. And especially if you're.
- [65:50]
Maddie
We're grown ups people.
- [65:51]
Becca
People don't get divorced because they are happy. If these people are miserable, I'm saying I'm not happy. I'm saying that things are going poorly. I need to leave, but the law is telling me I have to stay. That's awful. That it shouldn't be.
- [66:05]
Maddie
And what is the fear that somebody is going to regret their decision? That's pretty rare. And also, even if so, okay, that's their problem. Like is it that the government doesn't want to file that much paperwork and they think it'll prevent people from getting divorced? Because it probably will. But at what cost? Like, I don't get it.
- [66:22]
Becca
Yeah, like stay out of my relationship. I'm deciding that I don't want this anymore. I'm doing the right thing by saying this isn't working for me. I need to go. Then you should let me do that. I just don't like it. It's really bothersome to me.
- [66:35]
Maddie
Yeah, I want to learn more about that.
- [66:37]
Becca
Me too.
- [66:38]
Maddie
That was good to bring up. I also was just like there are a couple things that he did that were in the, in their, like small things individually that as they add up, it is emotional abuse. And I want to point them out because I think it's hard to sometimes categorize them that way. One of them was when she embarrassed him at that dog park and then they came back and he got mad at her. That's so common, the public facing happiness. And then you go back and you get berated for basically anything. You can't do anything right. I mean, she couldn't do anything right. He was going to find a way to blame her.
- [67:13]
Abby
Right.
- [67:14]
Maddie
And yeah, if you're in a relationship where you feel scared to be in private because you messed up, you're the problem. You probably did something wrong. Even if you don't know what it is and you're walking on eggshells. That is emotional abuse. They don't have to call you a curse word. They don't have to physically harm you. Like, you are not regulated. Your nervous system's not regulated, and you don't get to be safe in your own home.
- [67:37]
Becca
Yeah.
- [67:38]
Abby
So that's huge.
- [67:39]
Becca
Absolutely.
- [67:40]
Maddie
And then, yeah, he started tracking her every move. Got jealous of the dog as well, which is common. I think that's common. And also, like, jealous of newborn babies
- [67:50]
Becca
is a thing where people get weird, too.
- [67:54]
Maddie
How about when her cleaning felt like an attack on him? Because he was like, I was gonna do it.
- [67:59]
Abby
It was.
- [67:59]
Becca
It's someone's feeling. Someone has a guilty conscience.
- [68:03]
Maddie
I mean, he lived in his own world and blamed her for everything. And I wonder if he recognized that he could do that based on her upbringing. I mean, he went to a religious therapist specifically, so that she was the bad guy in that realm.
- [68:19]
Becca
Yeah.
- [68:19]
Maddie
And I. I did think it was very smart that she was strategic about saying, I'm the problem. I need to go to individual therapy. And then got to go to individual therapy. You know, the way she had to position that was to put herself down.
- [68:35]
Becca
Yeah. Like, to make it her fault so that he. Yeah, you're right. It worked. But that's. But that's a great way to get what you want, too, is to make it seem like it's your fault, and you gotta take it on and make it less about them and more about, oh, this is your problem. So it's kind of smart, but also, it sucks you have to do that.
- [68:54]
Maddie
Sad. But it's survival. I like. Okay. So then she said the question to ask yourselves that maybe we could all ask ourselves sometimes is, would you bring kids into this?
- [69:04]
Becca
Oh, that was a good one. I'm glad you brought that up, because that was. There's a lot of situations that people could probably think about and be like, oh, my gosh.
- [69:13]
Maddie
Yeah, think about it. If you're like, do I want to stay living in this town? Do I want to stay with this person? Obviously, do I want to like anything where you're just trying to decide if this is if the situation's right for you, or. I sometimes think about, like, my, I don't know, my, like, younger self. Like, I think about me as a kid and, like, would I want this for her? So whatever works for you. I just think it's such a good way to maybe have that conversation with yourself. And.
- [69:40]
Becca
No, that was very rich. Would you want to bring kids into this?
- [69:44]
Maddie
Yeah.
- [69:45]
Becca
Good freaking point. No, I would not.
- [69:48]
Abby
No.
- [69:48]
Maddie
And then she said, Be true to yourself and don't be a dick. And I love that. That's very valid coming in with the mantras and the sayings. I mean, he. How much she found after she left the hip, like the hypocrisy of his only fans going on that and Reddit and just like all. I'm sure there's more that she doesn't know, don't you think?
- [70:09]
Becca
Yeah, a hundred percent, definitely.
- [70:12]
Maddie
And I don't think she need, like, she's doing so well. She doesn't need to know, but, oh, what a journey. And I felt like she had really done so much work and reflection and was able to share it so well. So if you've been raised in anything similar, like, our hearts go out to you because it's not. It's not something many people understand and you might feel really misunderstood for a lot of your life. And I hope someone like Abby makes you feel a little more seen.
- [70:37]
Becca
Yeah. Thank you so much, Abby, for sharing your story. And again, thank you to you guys, our listeners, for being so supportive and the thoughts that you share. And even I know there's sometimes we don't agree or even don't understand, but the thoughtfulness and the kindness that you share when supporting one another is really, really cool. So thank you again so much.
- [70:58]
Maddie
We love you guys and we love you on Patreon again. $5 a month for so much. $9 a month for all of that, plus no ads. And we want all of your responses and messages and everything at Dating Detectives podcast on all the socials and hit them with the email girl.
- [71:20]
Becca
Oh, yeah, it's investigate. TheDatingDetectivesPodcast.com Please send us your stories. We'd love to be an ear or a platform and outlet for you. And the sense of community that you create when you share it helps people feel less alone, but it might also help you feel less alone. And you know, you have a community here. So thank you for listening and for allowing us to, you know, come into your world. Yeah.
- [71:48]
Maddie
And if anything, we haven't talked about this, but remember we were doing WTF moments. Like if there's a moment in the story.
- [71:54]
Becca
Oh, yeah, like wtf?
- [71:57]
Maddie
Yeah, you get it. Comment that we want to hear it. Just say, yeah, WTF moment. But otherwise, we love you and as always, trust your intuition.
- [72:20]
Becca
It.