What Happened to Grandpa?

Summary

The Dating Detectives: "What Happened to Grandpa?"

Release Date: January 19, 2026
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (A), Hanna Anderson (B)
Guest: Taylor (C), Randy Davis, Genetic Genealogist (D)

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Overview

In this unusually spanning and emotionally fraught episode, private investigator Mackenzie and comedian Hanna interview listener Taylor, whose decades-long family mystery is finally solved. It’s a story that begins in 1952 with the unexplained disappearance of Taylor’s grandfather and ends in the present, unraveling secrets through classic sleuthing, family tenacity, and—most crucially—modern genetic genealogy. The episode is less about infidelity and scamming in dating apps, and more about the devastating ripples one person can leave through years of deliberate deception and abandonment, with real-time investigation insights from geneticist Randy.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Disappearance (00:43 – 08:43)

• The Call to Taylor: The story launches when Taylor receives a shocking call from a police station, suggesting there’s finally a lead on her grandfather who vanished over 70 years ago.
  • "I believe I know what happened to your grandfather." – Police caller (04:03)
• Family Taboo and Trauma: Growing up, Taylor’s family never discussed what happened to Grandpa, and it was strictly off-limits to ask—pain and secrets fester for decades.
• Mysterious Details: The last anyone saw of Grandpa, he was moving cattle for breakfast, promised to return in 20 mins, and then utterly vanished. The family, police, and neighbors found no sign. Theories included accident, foul play over gambling debts, or personal drama.

2. Generational Impact & Dead Ends (08:43 – 30:58)

• Taboo Sustained: The secrecy becomes a defining feature for generations, with children and grandchildren only whispering speculation.
• Institutional Failure: When Taylor and her cousin finally approach the police, they’re stonewalled:
  • “New sheriff comes in town, they just get rid of all the old stuff. So we don't have anything.” – Police (14:18)
• Persistent Obstacles: The family’s efforts with police, the FBI, and journalists result in rudeness, patronizing comments, and more dead ends.
  • “I even heard that he was picked up by aliens.” – Detective dismissively, about theories (22:32)
• Strained Family: The absence scars the family: Taylor’s grandmother struggles as a single mother of 13, the children are distributed to survive, and multigenerational wounds form.

3. An Unexpected Breakthrough (30:58 – 34:31)

• A New Detective Appears: Years after the initial renewed search, Taylor receives a call out of the blue from a new detective, who offers to meet the whole family and finally share “what happened to Grandpa.”
  • “I just received a call from a detective at the county, and they know what happened to our grandfather.” – Taylor (30:58)

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Genealogy and the DNA Investigation

(with Randy Davis, Genetic Genealogist: 34:31–63:26)

4. Enter Randy – Breaking the Case with DNA (34:31 – 41:32)

• Amateur Sleuthing: Randy, a hobbyist yet highly skilled genealogist, lays out the basics of modern DNA-based family sleuthing. He’s pulled into the case by Clarissa, who’s seeking her biological parents.
  • “It’s not a job. It's not a hobby. It's just what I do.” – Randy (34:45)
• DNA Webs: He explains the intricacies of family DNA matching, centimorgans, and how 1 in 10 or 1 in 7 people discover ‘dad is not dad’.
  • “Hundreds of people…every day say, 'I just got my DNA results back, and I don't know who these people are.'” – Randy (35:44)

5. The Genealogical Discovery (41:32 – 62:01)

• Clarissa Mystery: Randy reconstructs a family tree for Clarissa and finds her closest DNA match, Robin (in Florida, age 60s), who appears as a half-great-aunt. This is peculiar, given family names.
• A Pile of Clues: By comparing DNA matches, using tools like the "Shared Centimorgan Project," and cross-referencing minimal public records, Randy deciphers that Clarissa’s mother, Bernice, was adopted—and her birth name was Stoltz, just like Taylor’s family.
• The Clifford-Ralph Revelation: Clifford (Robin’s father in Florida) appeared out of nowhere in 1952—the same year Grandpa Stoltz vanished up north. No records exist for Clifford pre-1952:
  • “He disappeared from Indiana. No draft card, no census records, no birth certificate. Just nothing.” – Randy (56:44)

6. Confirming the Truth—One Man, Two Families (62:01–63:26)

• Direct DNA Test: The detective coordinates a DNA test between Ralph Stoltz’s Indiana kids and Robin in Florida. The result: half-siblings.
• Public Announcement: With proof, the two families—and the broader region—learn the unimaginable truth: Grandpa didn’t die, he ran, created a new identity, and started a second family.
  • “What ultimately we found out was that Clifford had also walked out and abandoned his wife and six kids.” – Randy (60:33)

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Aftermath and Reflections

7. Family Fallout & Meeting the “Other” Family (64:17–73:11)

• Shock & Grieving: Taylor describes the family’s simultaneous relief and devastation at learning the truth:
  • “I felt pain for my dad…nobody wants to hear that your dad just took off. And didn’t care anymore about you.” – Taylor (65:24)
• Bizarre Parallels: The runaway grandpa reused children’s names, gave a son his original (pre-fake) name, and mimicked family structure in his “new life.”
• Contact Across States: Both families—now linked by truth—begin tentative communication over Facebook, but want to let Florida’s family process the painful revelation.
  • “They only knew him as one person. They only knew him as…this was a huge shock to them.” – Taylor (67:27)
• Additional Ironies: The second wife also had a previous family she left behind, amplifying the themes of generational trauma, secrecy, and abandonment.

8. The System’s Failures and Complicity (73:11–78:58)

• Institutional Barriers: Taylor remains frustrated with the police/FBI: they seem to possess old records but refuse to release them.
  • “They had a report…they’re not able to give us a copy… I think they might be trying to protect the FBI.” – Taylor (75:31)
• Ease of Disappearance (1950s): The hosts reflect on how shockingly easy it was, prior to digitization, to vanish and create a new identity.
  • “It’s not that hard back then…if you had a strong enough birth record document…you could just walk in and say, 'I lost my card'...” – Mackenzie (89:04)

9. Emotional Resolution and Broader Lessons (78:11–end)

• The Weight of Deception: Taylor says the family would have preferred a tragic death to decades of deliberate deception.
  • “I think the deception is worse. The fact that he took off…he intentionally and purposefully hurt all these people and left my grandmother to work like a slave.” – Taylor (79:05)
• Impact Across Generations: The trauma and lore defined family bonds in unexpected ways—sometimes even keeping them close in search of truth.
• Power of Genetic Genealogy: The hosts marvel at the potential of DNA and online tools, both to heal wounds and to “out” the dogfish of the past.
  • “I like to think it makes it harder to dogfish…they still gonna dog fish harder.” – Hanna (86:48)
• Taylor’s Hope: She encourages others in similar situations to keep searching and not to hide from the facts: “You can’t run from DNA.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Taylor on the pain of not knowing:
  • "For most of my life, I did not know anything about what happened to my grandfather. My grandmother did not have a husband with her...it was very mysterious." (03:57)
• On the detective’s dismissal:
  • "I even heard that he was picked up by aliens." – Detective (22:32)
• Randy on DNA family surprises:
  • "My rough guess is somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 7 people are not calling dad the right person." (35:40)
• Discovering the double life:
  • "Turns out...my suspicion was that his father's name, Clifford, was used to be Ralph and that he had left his family in Indiana and gone to Florida." (55:45)
• Taylor’s emotional assessment:
  • "I think the deception is worse because if he would have been murdered...we could have accepted that. But the fact that he took off..." (79:05)
• Generational wounds:
  • “They had, like, a press release…my dad, I just want to tell you they’re going to do a press release about Grandpa, and I just want you to know ahead.” (82:25)
• Summing up the dogfish theme:
  • "I think my grandpa was one of the first dogfish to ever..." – Taylor (67:19)
  • "OG Dogfish. Like to the point you have more than one name on your epitaph." – Hanna (87:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:43–08:43: Taylor shares her family's initial trauma and the taboo around Grandpa's disappearance.
• 14:18: Run-ins with unhelpful/hostile law enforcement.
• 22:32: The dismissive detective’s “alien” comment.
• 34:31–63:26: Genealogist Randy's walkthrough of the DNA investigation.
• 64:17–73:11: Family learns the truth; emotional aftermath.
• 75:31: Taylor’s theory on police/FBI secrecy.
• 79:05: Taylor on whether closure was worth the pain.

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Themes and Reflections

• Dogfishing Is Not New: The episode reframes dogfishing as a historic phenomenon, showing that the emotional devastation is multigenerational and only now more easily unraveled through technology.
• Impact of Secrets: Taylor and her family's experience demonstrates the destructive legacy left by forced secrecy, institutional neglect, and generational trauma.
• Power & Danger of DNA: The hosts and guests ponder the promise and ethical dilemmas of genetic genealogy, recognizing its power to heal family mysteries — and expose the dogfish who thought they'd escaped forever.
• Advocacy for the Silenced: The episode respectfully spotlights the era’s women, especially single mothers trapped by social mores, who bore the brunt of such betrayals in silence.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a deeply personal and expansive look at familial lies, loss, and the slow, messy journey to both closure and justice. It’s both a cautionary tale—dogfish can shake generations—and a testament to the healing power of relentless curiosity and scientific innovation. The Dating Detectives, while usually versed in modern romance and deceit, deliver a powerful historical true-crime investigation that resonates far beyond one family.

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To Share Your Own DNA/Family Discovery Story:
Email the hosts at [e-mail] — anonymization and empathy guaranteed.

Transcript

[A]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-6-7233 for support.

[B]

Happy dating Detectives Monday.

[A]

Oh, this story is like nothing we've had Today's episode.

[B]

You guys like dogfish to the max, but like throwback dogfish.

[A]

This dogfish story starts in the year 1952. Yes, 1952.

[B]

How about that starts in the year 1952, ends now, and we're just now doing a. Doing a podcast on it.

[A]

Well, first of all, thank you to Taylor, who is going to. You'll meet her in a second. She's a listener and is our amazing guest today. And I'm excited for you all to hear her story because it's. Yeah, it's a different perspective, but I. Yeah, mind blowing. I don't even know what else to say. And then we also have people and.

[B]

Time that it spans is crazy to me.

[A]

This episode also deals with adoption and adoption trauma, biological ancestry, and we talk a lot about the emotional side of that, so just be aware. And then we have another type of investigator that worked on this case, and he's going to come into play and talk to us a little later on in the story. So you'll have two for the price of one.

[B]

What a Monday. Totally different kind of investigation. It's kind of cool.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I want. We. We did this last episode, I guess. I love the idea of if you have a WTF moment throughout listening to the story.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What was your WTF moment?

[A]

Yeah, we love that comment on Instagram Dating Detectives podcast or Facebook or TikTok or on whatever platform you listen to. If they have a comment section, you get it. You know how to do this. But just write WTF moment and then tell us when your. Your brain exploded and when you were shocked the most. Because I think that's fun. It's also different for everybody based on your experience. Some of you are like, no, I knew. I knew exactly what was going on because nothing's getting by me. And me over here is constantly just like, what?

[C]

I was like.

[B]

I was like, wait, what? Wait, hold on. Wait. What?

[A]

I also should have mentioned. You can obviously comment all of your thoughts on our Patreon, which we love Patreon is just. You get bonus episodes. Two bonus episodes a month. It's only $5 a month. Or if you want to do the $9 tier, then you get everything on Patreon, plus no ads. Whoa. But we just had book club, so thank you to those of you who came to our Patreon book club.

[B]

And book club was amazing.

[A]

It's the best. So just join Patreon if you need a little more dating detectives in your life. And I think you do. Yeah, I think my femme tuition is telling me that you do. And I trust her. I always trust her. Anything else before we hand it over to Taylor?

[B]

I think we need to hand it over to Taylor. You guys, hold onto your pants. Hi, Taylor.

[C]

Hi there.

[B]

We have Taylor with us, and she's going to share her journey with us. Taylor, will you please take us away on your journey?

[C]

Well, it all starts with a phone call. I'm raising my grandson, and he goes to school, and I went to pick him up. And when I was sitting in line, my phone rang and it said a police station. And I'm like, oh, like on the caller I.D. yes.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And, you know, I'm trying to stay out of trouble, so I.

[A]

What is the.

[C]

What is the police station calling me for? So I answer it and I said, hello, this. And they're like, is this Taylor? And I'm like, yes. And she's like, well, I've been looking to talk to somebody in your family. And I'm like, okay. And she said, well, I believe I know what happened to your grandfather. And I was like, what? Okay, this is a scam. And my uncle happened to be in the room with her, and he's like, taylor, it's true. She's got a story. So I guess I should start from the beginning and tell you where it starts. When I was growing up, there was a huge family mystery as my grandpa disappeared. And it happened in 1952. For most of my life, I did not know anything about what happened to my grandfather. My grandmother did not have a husband with her. He wasn't around. And we weren't really. We weren't supposed to say anything. We weren't supposed to ask our dads. It was very mysterious. And so I don't know that we ever had a conversation about him disappearing until I was probably a teenager, maybe 12, 13. You know, you have to do family trees, and so we have this family tree, and you can't put your grandpa in there because you're gone. But, you know, you hear bits and pieces from family members, and then you put it all together and realize that, you know, it's a painful story. So he disappeared. And it happened one Sunday. The family was getting ready to have breakfast, and of course, few of the kids were outside doing chores. And Grandpa, he said, well, you kids go in and get ready for breakfast, and I'm going to take the cows and put them in the backfield and I'll be in in about 20 minutes. Well, 20 minutes came and passed and he never came back. Wow. So, of course, there was a lot of land there, so they were concerned that he fell or got hurt. Sometimes in the country, there's old wells that nobody covered up or anything. And so they were like, well, maybe he fell in that. But he never came. He never came back. And they got the police and neighbors and everything and walked the property, and when they did, they found nothing. Not any trace whatsoever.

[B]

He's gone.

[C]

He's just gone. Like vanished. You know what. So, of course, people were speculating and saying all kinds of stuff, but nobody was really sure what happened to him. And they put it in the paper. They had all kinds of people talking and looking for him, and they thought maybe he had amnesia. Just all kinds of things that people were talking about. When my grandfather played cards, he played, like, every weekend. And he was a good gambler and he won a lot of money. But there was a time when we thought maybe he owed somebody a lot of money, you know, maybe he didn't win. And so maybe somebody took him out because of that. That could have been part of it. Or, you know, we thought he might have messed around with somebody. Wife and somebody took him out, you know, my one uncle, it's such a sad story, but he was 9, and he was one of the children that my grandpa said, go in the house, get ready for breakfast, and I'll. I'll be back in 20 minutes. And he always said that he wished as a child that he would have stayed or went walking with grandpa. So he knew where he was. And he carried that through years. But, yeah, it was painful for years. Right?

[A]

He's so young. How can he know anything else?

[C]

And my dad, at 5, he used to have nightmares. And I didn't hear that from my dad. I heard it from my aunt. But he had nightmares over and over and over for many years. But my grandmother had to go to work, and so she went. She worked a couple really hard jobs. She did some cleaning. She worked in a nursing home, you know, Doing whatever she could to get by. And some of my uncles went. Actually went to their older sisters to live because times were just really hard. And for as long as I can remember, my mom had always said, don't see anything. We couldn't watch Little House on the Prairie.

[A]

Wait, I might not know. Why not? Is there something about a dad that disappears with a House on the Prairie?

[C]

My grandmother grew up Amish, and so she lived a very conservative life. When she married my grandpa, they kind of what they call, jump the fence. He was able to drive a car and do things like that. That's a term that they use here in Amish land, that when they jump the fence or they jerk. Jerk over. That's what they call it. And so they live conservative. But they had 13 children, and they just lived on a farm. And my grandmother, at the time, she was just home with all her kids. So as we got older, we had to ask a lot of questions. My mom wouldn't even say anything. She just would be like, we don't need to discuss it. And we would get our families together, like, for Christmas or whatever, and the kids would always talk. They'd be like, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna. We need to do a seance and try to get. Talk to Grandpa, you know?

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Cause we're like, the only way we're getting the truth.

[C]

I mean, the youngest kids, the last six kids, they were all men. So we figured out that my grandmother or that our parents, the moms, got together and said, we need to tell the kids not to talk about it. So we all knew that we're not to talk about it. So we talked amongst ourselves. And My grandmother had 52 grandchildren.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

God, that's nuts. So we had a big family, very big. And sometimes when we were all together, just talking back and forth or, you know, trying to figure out what, none of our parents were talking. So we kind of made our own stuff up, and we're like, somebody took him out. Somebody took him out. But it would kind of get exciting because it. It was something that we weren't allowed to talk about, and we would be really hush hush when the parents came around.

[A]

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[C]

So anyways, family just kept moving on and there got to be quite a few years, you know, and we all got older as kids and a couple times we get together and like, what in the world happened to him? Why has nobody done anything? You know, what happened to Grandpa, it just really was what happened to Grandpa crazy, you know. And I think it was important because it was a mystery and we all wanted it answered before our parents and even our grandmother at the time before they died, I really felt like that makes sense too. No matter what the story end was, they need an answer. They need closure on it. So one of my cousins and I were like, you know what, we're going to go up to the police station, we're just going to ask them. It's an open case, right? Still missing, and we don't have an answer. So we went up to the police station and they took us back into this one office and one of the police officers there, she's like, well, you know, we don't really have anything. Have you talked to your aunts and uncles? I'm like, oh God, we can't even talk to our dad, you know, what are you talking about? And she's like, when a new sheriff comes into town, they just get rid of all that stuff. So we don't have anything. We don't have any records, we don't have any report. I'm like, how could you not still have a report? And she's like, well, you know, new sheriff comes in town, they just get rid of all the old stuff. So we're like, okay. So. So we were walking out of the police station and I looked at my cousin and she looked at me and I go, did you believe that? And she's like, no. And I said, they don't get rid of stuff. This is Crazy. So we went home. We're like, what? We don't know where else to go. There just really isn't anywhere to go, you know? So we both went our separate ways, and each were trying to come up with ways to find out information. And it was about a year, almost exactly a year, and I decided, I'm calling that police station again. And so I did. Unbeknownst to me, my aunt had called there as well. But when I called, they gave me this detective, and I said, I'd like to talk to somebody about my grandfather. And right away he's like, are you one of the girls that came up here last year? Oh, what do they know? And I'm like, that's what we. I was like, what? Like, yes, I was. And I thought to myself, how would you remember that? I'm sure you got other stuff to do. And so I said, well, last time when I was there, they said, you didn't have anything. And he said, well, you didn't talk to the right person. Oh. And I said, well, who am I talking to now? I mean. And so he said, are you related to so? And so? And I said. I said, yes, that's my aunt. He said, well, she's coming up, whatever the day was a few days later, and if you want to come up with her, you can look at the report that we have. And I was like, I'll be there. So I called some of my cousins and a couple of my aunts, and I said, meet us at the police station, because we're going to see that report. Well, we all got there and walked in, and he looked at me, and I said, we're here to see that report. And he goes, I don't have enough room for all of you guys. I said, I thought it would take turns, you and your aunt. And I said, we don't care. We'll sit out here in the foyer. So we did. We set out there. We covered the whole place, and he brought the report out there. Now, mind you, it was about, I don't know, four pages of paragraphs just typed up like an old report. So everybody was reading it. Everybody was taking their turn reading it. My one cousin was writing stuff down, and we had been there, I don't know, half an hour, 45 minutes. Here he comes. Are you guys done? Like, no.

[A]

And he said, were you finding information that you had?

[C]

Well, there was some stories that we had heard, like, you know, just bits and pieces. But what we noticed the most of that report was some people that they should have interviewed. They did not interview. So either.

[B]

Like, family members.

[C]

Yeah. Like, even my grandmother.

[B]

And so I'm like, they never interviewed even her?

[C]

Well, we didn't know if they hadn't interviewed her or if they didn't have that part of the report there. We thought maybe some of the report was missing. So he came out, and I told him. He came out the second time. I said, you know what? How about I come get you when we're done because we're still busy. And I could tell he was getting a little anxious, but he was kind of a pompous ass. He said, guess you should have brought a camera. You could take a picture of it. I was, are you allowed to do that? You are so rude.

[A]

And I said, what, are they tidying?

[C]

Because they wouldn't be. We couldn't get copies of. Was crazy. And so we just. Like I said, my cousin wrote, and she just wrote really fast. And so anyways, we all left there, like, why didn't they interview Grandma? Why didn't they interview? And then.

[A]

And just remind me, how many years after his disappearance is this now?

[C]

Many. Let's see. Probably 50 years.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And so we're like, weird that they'd.

[A]

Still be sketchy about it.

[C]

Yes, Barry. I'm like, who are they protecting? It's so crazy. So in between that and this visit, I had relatives that were contacting the FBI, had wrote letters, had called, and they all got the same response, like, well, you know, after he's 100 years old, then we can check. You know, we can check it. What? Like, you're kidding me. I don't know.

[A]

Have you ever heard that?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah. So we're like, that. That doesn't make sense. But, you know, we didn't know where to go, what to do with it. It's like, you know, kind of FBI. So again, we just went home and we're like, what is the big secret? We know that. That this police station is hiding something. We don't know what it is or who they're protecting. We didn't know if it was judges or sheriffs or what it was. But when my family and I were there at the police station and we were leaving, the front gal was so rude. And I asked her what her name was, and she told me, and I said, thank you, because when I get channel 16 over here, I want them to know who they can be thanking, because channel 16 is our local company TV station. And I was serious. So I did get a hold of him, and they came and did a story on him. And we went out to the property. They talked to my aunt and my uncle, and so they didn't really like the fact that that happened, but they did call a meeting with two of my aunts. My husband at that time, and my cousin and her husband. So we all got in.

[A]

This is. The police department calls this meeting.

[C]

The current. At the time, current sheriff. So we went in and I thought, I don't know what they're going to do or what they're going to say, but we'll just see what they have to say. And so he started talking. He said, let me get my detective in here. So. So he brings him in. I had never met him. He introduced himself and said hello to my aunts. And they wanted to hear what the station had, what they had done, what they could do. And that detective was so rude to my aunts. I mean, he just was like, well, I have heard all kinds of stories. I even heard that he was picked up by aliens. And I was furious because I'm like.

[A]

It'S their job to find out what is. Like, of course you hear theories.

[C]

I'm like, he said it like it was a joke. And I'm like, you realize this is their father that you're talking about. How inconsiderate. I mean, I was just. I was beyond. And my cousin's husband was like, somebody's going to go to jail tonight. It's probably going to be Taylor. But.

[A]

You were like, oh, my God.

[C]

So we left there and felt nothing. Like, this is useless. You know, talking to them is just really. And even the channel 16, when they went, they felt like there was definitely something they're hiding, but they couldn't figure it out, you know. And I said, they're protecting somebody, you know, Who. Who are they protecting? So I was talking to some people, older people that lived in the area, and they had given me a list of names that used to play cards with my grandfather in the club. You know, it was kind of a secret area. And so I. Grandma's favorite group of people. Yes, absolutely. And they were really some prominent people in. In the town. And so I started looking through and I found a son to one of the men on there, and he's an older gentleman. So I. I called him and I told him who I was and that I was looking to find out something about my grandfather that I had heard that he, his dad, played cards with my grandfather and that they knew each other really well. And he goes, I don't know nothing. And I'm like, what Wait, what? Just all like, just like very, like he definitely knew who my grandfather was. And he said, I know nothing.

[B]

So what you're saying is, you know something?

[C]

Yeah. So I said, I feel like I.

[A]

Just read this book for book club. This feels like a murder. Mysterious.

[C]

It's crazy. I was trying to put the pressure on him and I said, you know, I just figured somebody might want to get something off their chest before they leave this earth, you know, because it's apparently a big secret. And he's like, nope, don't know anything. So I was like, okay, dead end. And so the family was just at a standstill. We're like, you know, we're never going to know. We all just need to understand that this is a mystery that we're probably never going to know. And as hard as it was, it just right here in the back of your mind, like, man, you know, what happened to him? You could just drive yourself crazy thinking about it, but I'm busy with my teenage boy and I just, I'm like, I need to quit. You know, just, it's. We're done. Still had a big pile of stuff, notes and pictures and stuff. Like that one reunion that we had. We decided, screw it, we're going to bring him up, we're going to take all these pictures, we're going to take all this information and we'll see what the dads and the uncles and aunts, what they say. And actually they were very intrigued, you.

[B]

Know, they saw, they wanted to know too.

[C]

Yeah. And. And besides our dads, the youngest ones, the other older ones, they were like, yeah, what do you want to know? You know, we'll tell, tell you about grandpa, you know, whatever. And we're like, what?

[A]

Like, like why was it such a hush hush thing for so long if they were actually okay?

[C]

Yeah, I think.

[B]

What do these people know? What do they know?

[C]

Yeah, well, some people did think the older ones probably knew. I'm not sure on that because I saw. I mean, I had some conversations with my older aunts and they were in pain, you know, I mean, it makes.

[A]

Sense that you just wouldn't want to trigger pain among the family.

[C]

Right. But they were excited to see some of the pictures and some of the relatives had never seen any pictures of him. And so we took a bunch of copies and it was really something, you know, I think it might have healed some pain in a sense, but still no answers. No answers at all. And when you think about it, I mean, he, he left in 1952 at 46 years old. And that is just a long time to be living and reliving and all kinds of questions. You know, these kids have my dad and, and my aunts and uncles. I mean, they're just like reliving all this stuff. And even as they got older, even my dad now, he's, he, he just doesn't want to talk about it. So we don't talk about it. Not to him.

[A]

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[C]

So anyways, we all just kind of let it go, you know, we just had to not focus on it every. I mean, because it got out of control.

[A]

It could be very all consuming.

[C]

Yes, very consuming. So years and years pass and we just accept that we probably will never know what happened. And so back to the phone call. I was sitting there and I was in disbelief that someone would really know the answer. It Was just like, out of the blue. Like, I'm like, how can this be? You know? And I didn't want to get excited about it, but then I was like, well, what has she got to say? You know?

[A]

And now that I know leading up to it, this is not a detective that you had met before. This is a completely new one.

[C]

No, no, I did not know who she was.

[A]

Okay. And how much time had passed since the. They had really passive aggressively nudged you out of there?

[C]

Years. And she had nothing to. She wasn't there. She. She was actually in the service, so she actually. Hey, you know, we'd like to come and talk to the family. Can you get people together? Well, my house is probably one of the bigger ones. So I said, yep, I'll get them together. So I got a hold of people and I said, look, I just received a call from a detective at the county, and they know what happened to our grandfather. And they're like, well, what happened? I'm like, I don't know. I'm going to hear it when I hear it with you guys, because I wanted it to be. I'm sure if I would have asked her, she would have told me. But I wanted to hear it with everyone else, you know, with the family.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

So I don't know if I could have waited. I know.

[C]

Well, when, you know, it's really sensitive to everyone and you've all been fighting together to try to find the end, you want to all be together when you hear it. It's just. Yeah, that's how I felt about it.

[A]

So they're lucky to have you.

[C]

So I told them, come to my house, be here by noon, because they're going to be here. And to make sure that you tell your siblings whatever. We're trying to get a hold. We have a family Facebook page, so I had put it on there, but I started calling people because I wanted to make sure everybody heard. So they start showing up. Of course, we only had one uncle. He was in his 80s, and he wanted to know what was going on with his dad when he got here, they said that they would talk to him in private, just out of courtesy because it was his father and they wanted him to hear it first. And so they went up to my grandson's room and his two daughters were with them. And. And they told. Told him what happened. When he came downstairs, we all had not heard what had happened, but we could see on his face that he was just in shock. So they started telling us, and it was. It was really amazing. To hear what. What people can do. You know, what happened to grandpa?

[A]

What happened to grandpa?

[C]

My grandfather. You know, up till this point, I have to say, we all thought he was murdered for his money. The night before he left, he had sold hogs, and he had made a lot of money. He had cash on him. But when he left, he prepared nothing. He didn't take any clothes. He didn't take anything. So we all thought somebody murdered him. Somebody did. We just don't know who. And, you know.

[B]

Oh, so he was murdered.

[C]

No, no, he was not. Actually. He was discovered by DNA. There was like that.

[B]

Alive?

[C]

Yes. Well, he wasn't alive then, but, yes, he was found because of his DNA.

[B]

So he was dead, but he was not murdered.

[C]

Right, but he had passed away because he was older, but. Yes, but I'm going to let Randy explain that part of the story, because he is a huge part of what our family is very grateful that he does what he does. He's very good at it, and he. He's the one who opened this case wide open.

[A]

So now we have Randy, and Randy is a genealogist, and he's going to walk us through how he got involved in this case, and he's going to tell us what happened to grandpa. Thank goodness. Important context before he jumps in. Stoltz is Taylor's family name. I know she's mentioned it. I'm just reminding you it is anonymized, but that will come up. So Stoltz, Taylor's family, also. We worked with Randy a lot before recording because genealogy and ancestry plays a huge part in this, and it's confusing, quite frankly. So we'll definitely explain it for people that don't understand how it works, such as myself, but we'll also hit the main points as we go, and. And make sure we make it very clear what happened to grandpa, because we're all dying to know.

[B]

Okay, so, Randy.

[A]

Who is Randy? Welcome, Randy. You need to tell us who you are, what your job is, and explain it for a layman. Yeah, because I don't fully understand what you do all the time.

[D]

Hi, my name's Randy Davis. I'm an amateur genetic genealogist. I use DNA to sort people's family out. And it's not a job. It's a. It's not a hobby. It's just what I do, and I don't make any money on it. I don't charge people anything to do this. But in today's world, we're finding that DNA tests are very, very popular. Statistics say about 10% of Americans have tested, and there's groups throughout social media because people get the results and they look at it and they go, who are all these people? My rough guess is somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 7 people are not calling dad the right person.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Wow. That's a. That's insane, you guys.

[D]

There's hundreds of people that come on social media every day, say, I just got my DNA results back, and I don't know who these people are. I don't know who half of these people.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So how do they find you?

[D]

I see these people on social media, and privately, I'll send them a message and say, if you're looking for some help just explaining your DNA, getting to understand it, or going further and digging in.

[A]

Well, yeah, you are an interesting kind of investigator because you. I mean, in. You are absolutely an investigator.

[D]

I call myself a researchers because, you know, research.

[A]

That's what I call myself too, when I'm on Instagram.

[B]

So then how were you able to help take Taylor.

[A]

Take us through your whole story because you kind of found her.

[D]

Well, to tell the story of. Of Taylor and finding her grandfather, it all goes down to a lady named Clarissa. She was the hinge pin that made all this possible. If it wasn't for Clarissa looking for her parents, I definitely wouldn't have found him. Originally, I was contacted by a person that had pulled me in to help her on a couple of other cases. I think we'd done three or four together. So she had been in contact with the lady named Clarissa, and Clarissa had asked her to help her. So she called me and she says, I've got this case and I need some help on it. I said, okay. The person was named Clarissa and gave me the basics of Clarissa was an adoptee searching for her parents. She was in her early 50s. And I was sent access to her ancestry account. There's a login where you can especially log in not, you know, you don't get access to their credit card details and stuff like that. You get to see their DNA. So I looked at that, and I thought, yeah, okay, well, let's have a go at this. And the tree was already started. I added into it. We got to looking at it a little more and more, and there were not that many DNA matches. There were some. There was like six significant ones that all. All kind of centered around this family name of Stoltz. And there were some were. A couple were named Stoltz, Jamie and a Michael, and then four others. Had you Know, there were descendants from the females in the line didn't carry that same surname, but they were related to that surname. They were related to the solstice. And the two significant masses were like 550 and 580 centimorgans, which was probably Clarissa's mother and this person's mother were first cousins. And then the next generation, the next generation down, they're called a first cousin once removed. Yeah, it's cousins. When your parents is cousins, they're a child, you know, and you are first cousins once. And that. That 550, 580 fit quite well with that. The amount of Centimorgans that you share with someone.

[B]

Are you saying Centimorgans, like centimeter, but centimorgan.

[D]

Correct.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

A gentleman named Morgan figured out how the science worked and he called him. Yeah, it's a cent to Morgan Centro Morgan Centimorgan.

[B]

Okay, cool, cool. All right, nice.

[A]

So how, like, how many centimorgans do I share with my biological mom?

[D]

4450, period.

[A]

Look at that.

[D]

Randy knows approximately plus or minus 10, 20.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And a sister will share about half of that. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less. But, you know, because it's. It's very random the way DNA is distributed from generation to generation, parent to child.

[C]

Sure.

[D]

It's not like, boom, you get exactly half and it's this much. Doesn't work that way. Otherwise you look identical to all your siblings. So the 515, the 580 persons were good to have. They were kind of close. And by looking at it, I was seeing that everybody was in this one family several generations down, and that these two people, being first cousins once removed, said that this was going back another generation, where the links to Clarissa would be. The two gentlemen that had their grandfather and his wife had 12 kids. So I'm thinking like, okay, wow, this cloth is a descendant of one of these 12 kids. Maybe not to our. Not a child. Could be a grandchild. I wasn't too sure at that point. The way it was stacking up was that she was a little bit more distant. And so it was working out, you know, it was a bit slow. And the colleague from Florida informed me that this probably wasn't her type of case, that this isn't what she wanted to do. She's extremely good at going through records and building trees, but pulling heavy on the DNA side, which is really about all I could see that we had. If you don't know who you are, building a tree is almost impossible. You don't know anybody's name to put in there.

[B]

You need some kind of point of reference.

[D]

Exactly. And until you've got that really solidly established, you're going nowhere. It's really frustrating. I wasn't overly optimistic at that point due to the low amount of matches that you need more data. You know, you've just got to get raw data and then mold it. There is different perspectives. So I needed more data. So there's various companies that do testing, that do the DNA testing, and some are very tight. They think, like, you get to see our results only. Others, like myheritage, you can send us your data, a raw DNA file that you had [e-mail] or 23andme and send it to us, and we will show you who matches on that. So I told Clarissa, I said, this is what I'd like you to do. Download your raw DNA file and we'll upload it to myheritage and we'll see if there's any matches there. And all we're looking for is more data. We're on the scratch. And we did that. Two days later, she sends me in. She says, oh, my. My heritage results are available. What do I do? Like, well, that was quick. Good. I said, well, give me access. She gave me permissions to access her files. And it was just this big boom. There's this batch that's 936 centimorgans.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

And that's huge.

[A]

That's someone at Thanksgiving.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, they're close.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So I was like, who is this? And the lady's name was Robin. She was about 60 to 65. The age is huge. When you try to identify an unknown person, age is a big point. So it's this person with this amount of DNA at this age group. Crossplotted the two. And I'm not coming up with it. I'm real confused. Who could this be? I looked and she actually had a couple of the Stolzens that were on myheritage, and she had a couple of them as matches. Like, what? She's a Stolz?

[A]

Wait, so just why did that confuse you? Because you'd already seen the name Stolz come up. So seeing it here and seeing it.

[D]

There, I wasn't sure whose side of family anybody was on at this point. I didn't know Stoltz was on her paternal or maternal side. And equally, I didn't know when I got to myheritage, well, that this 936 was on maternal work permit. And I went to a website, it's called DNA painter.com and it's a series of genealogical tools that can be used and one of them is called the Shared Centimorgan project where you enter in the amount of centimorgans, the 936 and it spits out, it's a probabilistic calculator. And it spits out at according to probability what that relationship is. Now there's a huge overlap in different relationships sharing the same amount. So first cousin, a half aunt, a half great aunt, half uncle. You know, because it was a woman I knew, it fell into the aunt part. That was easy. And given the 60 over Robin had older, you know, and the agent, I thought, well, all right, let's, let's plug this in and see what it says. And it came back and I said, well, you're on the borderline, but it could be a half great aunt.

[B]

Oh, gee.

[D]

I'm like, all right. I went back to myheritage and I looked again and I noticed this lady had a two person tree started which a lot of people do it those parents names in after that they don't really know much else to put in. And it said that the father's name was Clifford.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

So I thought, all right, so who's Clifford? I didn't recognize his surname and that doesn't fit. I went back and searched all the matches. She had 40,000 matches on Ancestry. And I searched and that name did not come up.

[A]

I'm like, and Clifford his last name, right? It's not Stoltz, right?

[D]

Yeah. No, he was not a Stolt.

[A]

No, not at all. Okay. Just I'm like, I don't even know where I would start if I was making a chart right now. So we're trying to keep it straight, but I think I'm with you.

[D]

And that's the fall is that you get this little bit here and this little bit here and you're not sure how they meld together. Do they fit at all?

[A]

Okay.

[D]

All I could see was that, okay, we've got 9:36.

[B]

Sometimes you're in a rabbit hole and you don't even realize it.

[A]

Yeah. If the audience is confused right now, guys, that means you're normal, Right.

[D]

Everybody's confused. And Clarissa's getting pretty frustrated. She had started by opening up Ancestry with kind of an expectation that it was just going to go, here's mom and dad and doesn't work like that. 40,000 people that she had didn't know one of them didn't recognize Any names. And she didn't understand Centimorgans. So she was completely lost.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I went back to DNA Painter, thankfully. And there's a function in it called Watto. What are the odds? And it's a probabilistic calculator. Now, as investigators, you do phone and tracking the phone and the amount of signals and stuff that goes on. This works basically in the same way. You have towers that have signals, and where the phone is, to one power, there's a strong signal. To another tower, it's smaller signal. Smaller signal means that the phone is a farther distance away. Right. And they draw circles from one tower and the other tower, the two circles cross. That's where the phone is. And Auto does basically the same thing. I plugged in the tree that had the various matches. And by doing that, the amount of DNA that she shared with each match, the farther away she was from the mash, the smaller the Centimorgans. And of course, the larger the number, the closer she was. I pointed this out, and it spills out. She's a great niece. The 9:36. Boom.

[B]

Okay, that's amazing.

[A]

Hey, guys, it's Hannah from the future. I'm gonna jump in a few times during Randy's explanation to translate for the girls, because we were confused, and you might be as well, and that's okay. So I'll just recap things to make sure we're all on the same page. This is what we know thus far. Clarissa is looking for her parents. There is not a DNA match close enough to tell us who her biological parents are. The closest DNA match that there is is a woman named Robin. She's in her 60s. She lives in Florida. And that was what he was saying. Had a ton of the Morgan things, the Senimorgans. Robin's father is Clifford, and he knows this not because we have Clifford's DNA, but just because Robin has shared her family tree somewhere. He then used a probability calculator that genealogists use, and Randy explained the probability calculator. If you understood all of that, you're amazing, and I am inspired by you. If you didn't understand that, you just need to know that it's accurate and that it told him. Robyn is Clarissa's great aunt. So now we'll head back to Randy because he's trying to figure out, how could Clifford and Clarissa not be on any family tree together, not have any connection anywhere when Clarissa has this match with his daughter?

[D]

My only thought was that perhaps of the 12 children, there was another child that and I'm like, wait, whoa. If she's a half great aunt, she's not the granddaughter or great granddaughter the way we thought, because there's a half. There's a half relationship in there somewhere. There's a. Somebody else is involved.

[A]

So Robin, just for the names. Robin is Clarissa's half great aunt is what you've learned, correct? The odds are saying that. Okay, but you don't know how that really connects to Cliff.

[D]

This is a probabilistic calculator. It's got a margin of error to it. Is that absolutely. No. What is it worth a hint that I'm going to chase?

[A]

I'm like, yeah, it's something.

[D]

Well, what's going on in the other. You know, I'm working three angles at the same time. While I'm doing that with Clarissa, I find out that she has a name and her original birth certificate. And I'm like, oh, oh, when were you going to tell me this? You know?

[A]

Yeah, I was. It feels relevant.

[B]

I feel like you should have led with that.

[D]

Did you know this all matter?

[C]

And I'm like, yeah, probably, you know, yeah, that matters.

[A]

And so what does it say?

[D]

It gave her mother's name and no father's name. Oh, there's a blank on it, but it gave the mother's name, so I'm chasing the surname for that. And her mother's name was Bernice. And I started chasing Bernice and Ellen, coming up with nothing. And on another avenue, I'm talking to a couple of the Stolzes online where I have found them on Reddit, for one. And he's telling me about things that had happened in the family and how his great grandfather had disappeared.

[A]

Oh, what happened to Grandpa?

[B]

What happened to Grandpa?

[D]

They had no idea. Nobody had any idea. No one knows to move the cattle from one field to another. Was going to be back in 20 minutes. Never came home. And no, they never found. Hiding a hair of him. All sorts of rumors, a lot of speculation, different things, but he just disappeared.

[A]

When you heard that, were you like, I need to crack this case? Have confidence that you would.

[D]

No, that. That has nothing to do with the DNA. You know, at that point, I didn't think so.

[A]

Right.

[D]

You know, I was like, yeah, all right, that's interesting. And I then came across an adoption record.

[A]

For Bernice, Bernice being the mother of Clarissa. Okay.

[D]

And she was adopted as well.

[B]

Did she know that?

[D]

Rosa didn't know that. I found that out in searching this. I found it. And she was born.

[A]

To a Stolz Bernice's est.

[D]

Her mother was one of the 12 children.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Okay, Clarissa's grandmother was one of the 12 Chill. Stolts children.

[A]

And the children are the children of this disappearing grandfather, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no. We don't. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

The. The disappearing grandfather, Ralph Stoltz. He had all these kids and then disappeared. So many kids at this point, I'm. You know, I think. I think I need to go have a beer here. This is getting serious.

[C]

This is a lot.

[A]

Okay, guys, I'm back to explain that, because when I was first hearing this from Randy, I didn't quite understand the importance of this discovery. So just to spell it out, Randy just discovered that Clarissa's mom was actually adopted. And Clarissa's mom, whose name is Bernice, the biological last name she was born with is Stoltz. Who else is a Stoltz? Say it with me, Taylor. Very good. So there are two mysteries. The first is why is Stoltz coming up so much in Clarissa's DNA? He knows that she's tied to that family somehow, but he doesn't know who her mother is in the Stoltz family. That is solved with this, because now we know that she was adopted and her biological name is Stoltz. The second mystery is how Robin and Clifford connect to the Stoltzes. We still don't know the answer to that, and we will get back to that. Okay, back to Randy.

[D]

I then kind of park the maternal side, and I'm looking at Robin, and I found a Clifford Jr. On Facebook. I take Clifford junior's freshman high school photograph, and I overlay it with Clarissa's grandfather.

[B]

Oh, he looks the same, doesn't he?

[D]

And there was an extremely strong resemblance.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Just give me run through names one more time. So Clifford and Clifford Jr. And Ralph are all different people at this point in your story, obviously.

[D]

Clifford, Clifford Jr. Yeah, in the story, they were. You know, as far as the narrative went, why had all these different people? The 936 fit perfectly for a child of Ralph with another woman, not with his wife of the 12 kids, but he had a child with another. Turns out. Okay, I had the conversation with Clifford Jr. I made him a note on Facebook Messenger. Hey, can we talk? Yeah, I call him on Facebook Messenger. And I explained who I was and what was going on. And my suspicion was that his father's name, Clifford, was used to be Ralph and that he had left his family in Indiana and gone to Florida. In researching Clifford Senior, he didn't exist before 1952. Senior. He disappeared from Indiana. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my.

[B]

So name change.

[D]

He had a Social Security card application, 1952. Pre 52. No draft card, no census records, no birth certificate. Just nothing. And I'm like, hey, just take your word. Before 1952, because you were busy playing Ralph. You were busy being Ralph. You walked and you started all over as Clifford had six kids.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. So Ralph and Clifford are the same person. And okay, so Ralph left in 1952, disappears, and that's when Clifford is essentially bored, except he's already a grown adult. That's crazy. As Clifford and a junior. Clifford Jr. Is his fake name. A junior to a fake name.

[D]

Yeah. And Clifford had a daughter, and Ralph had a daughter, both having the same name. Clifford and Ralph both had a junior son. A son. So there's these mos. That dude you did. Exactly. Let's roll another one just like the other one. You know, he went back and just played the same game again.

[A]

So Taylor's family thought he was murdered, and this whole time he just had another family in a different state.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, guys, I know. That was a huge discovery. Let's just quickly recap exactly how he knows that Clifford and Ralph are the same stinking person. Because we know Clarissa is a Stoltz, and we found that her closest DNA match is Robin, who, to our knowledge, was not a Stoltz. And because we are seeing that Ralph Stoltz disappeared in 1952 and Clifford appeared in 1952, we can conclude that they are the same person. So Robin is technically a Stoltz, too. Like, crazy. So, okay, wow. Wow. So what do you do with that? Do you tell Clifford Jr. Right away? Because that's big information to share.

[D]

I said, you know, this is possible. This is what I'm looking at. I said, what do you think? He says, I don't know. I said, why? He says. He says, my dad didn't talk about his family or life or history or anything like that. He says he never spoke about any of it. I don't know anything about it. He said, so it's very. I wonder why he's a bit of a realist. He said, it's very possible that's exactly what happened.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Yeah. So I go back two minute, and I now realize that Ralph and Clifford are the same man. There were enough of the 12 children of Ralph that had their children or their grandchildren had tested that. The only way that the amount that they shared and what they shared with Robin was that if she was their half Aunt Roman Great aunt as well. So it wasn't just Clarissa's relationship. It was what those other relationships also added up into the same thing. Had to be. I go back and I finalized Ralph is Clifford. And I go back to Clifford Jr. And I say, you know, he's like, well, nothing surprises me. What ultimately we found out was that Clifford had also walked out and abandoned his wife and six kids.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

The second wife.

[D]

And there are probably six or eight different websites that do missing persons, like the DOE Project, places like that. And Ralph was on there. And I knew that sitting on the Ralph story. People have a right to know what happened to grandpa, what happened to dad. He still had children that were still alive. And I went on the Lagrange County Sheriff's Department's webpage, found a lady detective sent it to her and I didn't hear back. And it was, ooh, three months. And I get a note. Yeah, we're wondering, yeah, we'd like to kind of looking at this and maybe, you know, we're going to assemble some family and talk about it. You know, can you give me a call and walk me through it? So I called and basically went through everything as I done with you. So they went and they tested one of the children, Ralph's children.

[C]

And Ralph's children.

[A]

Okay. Indiana family.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

When that came back, it showed that she was a half sister to Robin in Florida.

[A]

Robin in Florida. The half great aunt.

[D]

Yeah, the half great aunt.

[A]

That's a completely different family.

[D]

And it's a. She is a half sister to her. They share the same fault. Ralph are the same man.

[A]

So now what?

[D]

They then had a big. The big TA DA had all the news come in and family and stuff. And the detectives spilled all the beans and said, this is what we found. And it made numerous news agencies across Indiana got excers from prints and videos from the newscasts and stuff of that. And they all on. They went, you know.

[A]

And did you have contact with the family? Obviously, we're here.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Talking to Taylor and you.

[D]

I had a message in the last couple of days with Taylor and you know my name because of her. And I'm really happy because it's. She's the epitome of why. Why you do this. You know, she is really the role model. She's the poster child for it all this because she cares and it meant a lot to her, you know, in talking to her. Huge, huge piece on her. And to find this out, I did have some communication with maybe three or four of her cousins that said, you know, thank you very much for finding this and all and appreciate it. And there we are.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Okay, so that is the end of this episode's part with Randy. Randy's story as it pertains to Taylor's story. There was more to it that we did cut out a little bit because it was so complicated and it wasn't necessary for this part. However, we talk more about weird things that he found on this case. And we had tons of other questions just about DNA and genealogy investigating. We're going to put it on Patreon and is the point. There's going to be an extended Randy interview on Patreon if you're interested in that. I had so many questions. But now let's get back to how his findings impacted Taylor. And where we are in the story is that Taylor is now finding out everything you just found out. It's being shared with her by this detective.

[C]

So here we were studying all. All around my living room and my dining room. And the detective, and she started out by saying that Grandpa took off. He went to Florida.

[B]

Florida.

[C]

He changed his name. He had six more children.

[D]

What?

[C]

Yes. Yes, he did. Everybody was just like, huh? Like we're all kind of glancing around in disbelief. And she said he got a new Social Security card. And this was in August when he left. And they found his Social Security card had been changed in November. So he was pretty quick at it, you know, almost like he had it planned. It's really odd, but we all were just. I mean, I felt pain for my dad because my dad, you know, this is something that nobody wants to hear. That your dad just took off.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And didn't care anymore about you. I mean, it appeared that way. Anyways, the kicker with this new family that he had. So he had this fake name and he went down there and he had these six kids and they, you know, three boys, they have the fake name.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the girls, of course, their names change when they get married. But the boys. One was named after him. One of the aunts was named the same as my aunt up here. No. Yes.

[B]

What? What?

[C]

One of the boys was named the same as my uncle up here.

[A]

And so he was just like copying.

[C]

It's weird. Very weird.

[A]

The family again.

[C]

And he also.

[B]

That's weird.

[C]

He, he. I. I forgot to mention this, but he actually was adopted. And so his real name, he named one of his kids.

[A]

Wait, hold on. He changed his name. Walk me through that.

[C]

The second family had not only an aunt with the same name as up here, so he had two kids. With the same name. He had a son that had the same name as one of the ones up here. And then one son was named with his biological name.

[B]

Oh, my God. What?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So he had a biological name, then he had a name that you all knew him as, and now he has a third identity name.

[C]

Yeah. Yes, I know. It's unbelievable. It just crazy. You know, when I listen to your guys's podcast, I. I'm like, I think my grandpa was one of the first dogfish to ever.

[B]

A dogfish. Og.

[A]

What else did she tell you? And was there any contact with his new family?

[C]

Well, she said that the family had just been told and our family was like, wow, you know, we had 70 plus years to know there was something. We didn't know what, but we all had a knowledge that there was something up. But they had nothing. They only knew him as one person. They only knew him as. So this was like a huge shock to them. Now we have had communication with some on Facebook, which has been really great, and our family wanted to give them a lot of space to.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Kind of talk amongst themselves and. And everything. I did make it like, process. Yes. Because it's a lot, you know, especially you're. You're thinking I have a fake name. I mean, I. The one, the one son, the oldest one was named after his fake name. It's like you're junior to, you know, to nothing, Nobody. Just really, really sad. So it was a few weeks, but I did reach out to the son, the oldest son, and talk to him for about an hour and it was really interesting. He told me about a fire that they had. Him and his sister were at school and this young 19 year old actually came to the house, saw the fire, came to the house. My grandfather was in a wheelchair. He had had a stroke and they took him. And this kid went in the house five times to save everybody from this fire. And he got an award. It was really something. I got a copy of that three report or the story and it's really, really something. I'm not quite sure how we would have felt if he really knew what kind of a man my grandfather was. But nevertheless, he saved them all. But my grandfather had had a stroke. Now he. When I talked to the older son, he said they weren't very close. He. He had actually left them and for a short period.

[A]

Wait, who? You're. Oh, grandpa had left his family too?

[B]

The family?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

And I'm not sure where he went or how. They didn't know either how long he'd been gone, but the oldest son, he was like, probably 10. And he said, wow. So your dad had less time with him than I did. And I didn't have much time with him. And it really hit, you know, because it, it's like how in the world, men, women, they make these decisions, not thinking or caring, I don't know. But they touch so many different lives and they put so much pain for so many. And I'm sure my grandfather never thought this was ever going to come to light, you know, but it did, and there's no getting around it. It's true. So we connected that other family. We would love to meet them. Meanwhile, I wasn't sure if my dad would want to. He's buried down in Florida, and so I found out where he was buried. I called the cemetery. I have yet to talk to them again. I told them that someday I would be able to tell them the story, but I couldn't tell them the story then because I didn't want it to get out and the other family not have enough time to process it. So they told me that he was buried. There was a lot that was about eight people. And it was a lot that people that couldn't afford burials or they would have that space for them. So he's buried there. There's no. Only they had a paper that was drawn out and has his wife's name on there. And so she was the contact person. And so they know that he's there, but there's no marking. So we can put one in there. They just, we just have to let them know and they'll mark it down and then we can take whatever marking, you know.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Now marking. Do you.

[C]

That is the thing. I think, honestly, we'd have to put both names on there. Respect of the other people for the.

[B]

Respect of the family who knew him as something different.

[C]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I think that that's the only thing we can do.

[A]

But what about his, his wife that he married after? What's her story?

[C]

She has a story, too. I don't know all of the story. I, I, I did ask if she knew my grandfather when he was, you know, married up here with my grandmother. Like, was she the one who came and picked, pick him up? And they didn't think that they did, but they did hear that my grandfather had other children.

[A]

Oh. So, like, maybe he said he had a previous mar. Like, maybe he did say he had a previous marriage.

[C]

I don't, I don't know. I don't know the details or or if their mom just said, you know, hush, hush, you know, we don't talk about it. Now, what was interesting, this wife, she actually came from Pennsylvania, and she had a family out there of six children that she left and a marriage that she left. She was allowed.

[A]

Does she appear the same way, or she just left.

[C]

I think she got divorced, and then she wasn't allowed to take the children.

[A]

Went the typical path.

[C]

Yes. But she never really. She didn't have a relationship with those children. And only one child came to Florida, I guess, to see them one time, and. And that was it. So she kind of had a backstory that, you know, was. Sounds pretty painful, too.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

It's. You know when I tell people the story. Well, years ago, when I used to say my grandpa came up missing, they're like, what? Like, how does he come up missing? I'm like, I don't know. It just happened. And tell him as much as I knew. But now when I tell them, the same people, guess what? We found out what happened to my grandpa, and he was a jerk. Wow.

[B]

That is insane. Oh, my God.

[C]

And they're like, what? That is so crazy. And my husband and I were at a funeral one time. There was a lot of Amish people there, and we were in line. It took a while. And so we were introducing ourselves. And when I said my last name, they're like, we know. We heard something about that. And I'm like, what? Because they were from Pennsylvania. They were like, you know, weren't from around here. And I'm like, you have. And they're like, oh, yeah. Has that become a book? Have we. We need to hear that. That was in our. Our youth newsletter or something like that.

[A]

I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is the talk of. The talk of the Amish gossip train.

[C]

It was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. It was.

[A]

It should be a book.

[C]

It's really. It's something. I tell you. It's crazy.

[A]

I have a question.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Do you know why the police and the FBI were being so sketchy?

[C]

Well, yeah, like, I believe we do, but we don't have any copy. The detective was meeting with the FBI. They had a report of some sort, and she was meeting with them to be able to give us a copy of it. They won't let her. What? Yeah. What? Her. The county said it's not their letter to give. It's not their report to give, so they're not able to give us a copy.

[A]

Whose report is it to give?

[C]

Yeah, the FBI's, I guess there is thought that he was found years ago and didn't want to be found, and I don't have anything to prove that. I guess to answer your question, I think they might be trying to protect the FBI.

[B]

I was about to say they're protecting, they're covering.

[A]

Maybe he bribed somebody or something.

[C]

He may have. You know, he may have something. Maybe he did something.

[B]

To have that many identities and get away with it for that long is kind of crazy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was going to ask. How do you. I don't even know. Not that I'm interested, but, like, where does one start with changing your Social Security? Where does somebody even begin? Obviously, this was in the 50s, but, like, change changing your Social Security number, erasing the paper trail. I don't even know how one does that.

[B]

I don't even know where they start.

[A]

Okay, If Mackenzie doesn't know, then Your grandpa's very smart.

[B]

You know how sometimes you get customer service, and it's like depending on who you get determines what kind of outcome you're going to get for whatever your problem is with customer service? And I feel like it's something like that. Like, if I go, sometimes I've gone to the dmv, and. And they're like, oh, this is fine. And other times you're like, no, you need this, this, this. And sometimes they're. And I feel like they. These are people who know how to. They know. They know who they can manipulate to get the information. You know what I mean? Like, it's. Have you ever seen Catch me if you can? And how. He. He knows what to say to who to get what he wants from whoever.

[C]

Yeah, and I think that probably is a really good point that my. I'm sure that my grandfather knew just what to do, how to do it, and back then, they didn't have all the double checks. You know, it was like you could just walk in and say. Go in and say, I lost my card and I need it so I can work, so I can get food on the table or whatever the case was. I mean, nobody expects them to have a different name and have 12 other kids up and just. Crazy.

[A]

Yeah. You don't assume that. Yeah, it makes sense that you said he sold hogs the night before and had a lot of cash on him. That. Yes, Maybe the men he was playing cards with helped in some capacity.

[C]

It's possible.

[B]

Oh, okay. Like, maybe because you're dealing in shady people, you know? Shady people?

[C]

Yes. Yes. They hang with the same crowd, don't they?

[A]

What else are there any Other puzzle pieces that you feel like have been put together for you.

[C]

I think that just knowing the truth, as painful as it is, it's something that our family can put to rest. It is a huge, like, what are you crazy? Are you kidding? In fact, the. The detective, she was like, I know this is a lot. And we were all just looking at each other like, this is unbelievable. I mean, it is hard to swallow. And we're all. Afterwards, we're all sitting around. We did talk to him. Randy. It was off of Randy. I mean, he did not have to. To reach out to the detective. So grateful that he did. Otherwise we'd still be, you know, thinking he got murdered, you know? Yeah.

[B]

Do you feel more relieved that he wasn't murdered, or do you feel like you almost would have rather that than known? The deception?

[C]

Yeah, I think the deception is worse because if he would have been murdered, you know, would have.

[B]

It's sad.

[C]

May have been something he did, but we could have accepted that. But the fact that he took off 12 children, plus grandchildren, because at that time he had some. To think that he just took off.

[B]

He intentionally and purposefully hurt all these.

[C]

People and left my grandmother to work like a slave. I mean, she really worked hard to try to keep things up, you know.

[B]

And to know and to leave no legacy. Except for this one.

[C]

Yeah, right. It's sad to me that she died without knowing.

[A]

Did she ever remarry or find anyone?

[C]

No, in that culture, there was no doing that. If you would have been murdered, something that would have been different. But no, she would have never done that.

[A]

That. It's not sad anyway, but that adds another layer, knowing the impact it would have.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, she. She. She was a pretty strict woman. She had to be. She, you know, she had these boys that were, you know, hellions. You know, they had nobody to control them, and she was working. It was pretty crazy. I mean, the stories that they tell is just unbelievable. But good stories. I mean, they're all very loving, kind people. My family is. If nothing else, they are all good people. And so who do you think is.

[B]

The most affected by this? Like, by this. Do you think it's the. And do you stay in touch with, like, the new family or is there any.

[C]

Yeah, we're on Facebook with each other, a lot of us, and so they'll have like, their birthday or they'll show their grandkids or whatever. And we're always commenting and stuff, stuff like that. And we have, you know, discussed. Some of them still live in Florida, not all of Them, but some of them. And we've discussed going down there and meeting and getting together and sharing some time together as. As a family.

[A]

How would that feel to learn about him and the person he became? Like, is that something you're interested in or are you almost like, yeah, I got my closure.

[C]

I don't think that they will really know much about his.

[A]

Right. Because he left them pretty young, too.

[C]

Right. And their moms are gone. So the only person I was able to talk to was the one that was named after him. And he said that he was really a great person. Like, he was really fun and he was loving and kind. And in fact, when he did leave, the son told me, he said, I wish he would have took me with him. You know, it was just. That's how much. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm sure that if he really was that kind of person, you know, he was. He was adopted. And maybe some of that, you know, I don't know if that caused some of his. Some of his decisions, you know, I don't know, trauma. But, you know, I think that back then, a lot of people didn't get help that they needed. If they did and didn't really think much about it, you know, they just moved on. And it is devastating to so many people. I mean, what he. What he has done hurt a lot of people, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For many, many years. And my generation, my. My cousins, we're. We're all shocked about it, but the pain isn't with us, you know, the pain. The pain that we feel is pain for our parents. You know, they had, like, a press release, and I wasn't able to be there because I had the flu. But I had went over to see my dad prior to that because I wanted him to know before it went on. And I said, dad, I just want to tell you that they're going to do a press release about Grandpa. And I just want to know ahead of time, you know, and he's like, okay. And that's all he said. You know, my brother had called after we found out after the meeting that my brother got ahold of my dad and told him. He said, well, we just heard. We know what happened to Grandpa. And so he told him. And then my dad just told him that, well, just keep it up there. I'll. I'll talk to you when I get home. But, you know, it was just a lot of pain. A lot of pain.

[B]

Oh, man, I'm so sorry. That's terrible.

[A]

It's hard to imagine. He was.

[B]

Oh, he was an OG dogfish for real.

[C]

I know. I thought, what are they gonna say? I don't know if they're gonna wanna hear this because it's such an old story, but I'm like, well, I think he is one of the first dogfish stories there is. You know.

[A]

Well, that's what I was just gonna say is how grateful I am to hear the story from your perspective. Because I think we do hear a lot of stories of the immediate. Usually a straight couple, where we hear it immediately, the impact on that person, which is obviously devastating, but we don't think a lot about how it impacts generations to come, whether in. In good and bad ways. Because in some ways, this is your family's lore. This is what has kept some of you probably even closer knit than you might have been otherwise, in a twisted sort of way. And it also makes you reevaluate your history and your. You're just ever like, where you came from, you know, it just. This makes me think of so many just what the aftermath. The ripple effect of a dogfish.

[C]

So he had 19 children. Lord, one one died when he was a baby. But yes, that's a lot of kids. I mean, and my husband said, well, you know, he left that family for a while, so maybe there's some more out there we just don't know about. And you just don't know. So true. But if they get DNA, we'll know because can't get away from that. Yeah.

[B]

The DNA never lies.

[A]

How do y' all feel about, like, the up rise of 23andMe and all of those, like, are you all about it or is it kind of weird knowing what it can reveal?

[C]

You know, it's crazy how much you can find and people that study that and. And do it all the time. And, you know, Randy, he is amazing. And the stuff that he uncovers and he doesn't just uncover something and go, oh, this is the way it is. He does the research. So, you know. You know that it's true. And I'm grateful for that because we did definitely don't want to hear the story until we knew. Knew that it was. You know, and the detective was good about that. She's like, this is true.

[B]

You want to be confident about it.

[C]

We know this is true. It's in black and white. They had taken a deal. Thank goodness she did her due to my aunt. And then once that came back, it was already confirmed, but it was better to have a sibling or his child. And so that's. It was awesome. It Was really, really awesome. I think it's a wonderful thing. Not for people that want to hide themselves or.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Not for the Golden State Killer, but his whole spot was blown up from that. Goodness.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's. It's amazing that people can find other family members. I mean, there are families out there that have found, you know, their own families, and it's just. It's crazy. I love the fact that we're able to do that.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

It's true. There's so much information we have access to now, and I know.

[B]

Isn't that crazy how much information we have?

[A]

I like to think it makes it harder to dogfish. Yeah, dogfish are still gonna dogfish, but we're making it.

[B]

They still gonna dog fish harder?

[C]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you for sharing it with us, though, because I bet other people have experienced things like this where they just find things out about their history that changes the way they look at their whole family.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's a weird feeling, I think.

[C]

That, you know, that was one part of me wanting to share, because I'm sure my grandpa's not the only one out there doing that, you know, or had done it back in the day. And so if you have any idea of being able to use DNA, man, it works. You can't run from that.

[B]

Told you. OG Dogfish. Like. Like to the point you have more than one name on your epitaph. What's it called? An epitaph. A thing you die in.

[A]

Your gravestone. Your epitaph.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, your gravestone. Crazy.

[A]

Well, let's talk about how many dogfish were dogfishing for years that we will never know about, or maybe we'll start to know about with the popularity of DNA and the Internet, because.

[B]

Because back then, they didn't have the Internet, and. And they didn't have DNA.

[A]

You could truly just walk out of your home, never come back, and reinvent yourself. And there was. So I did a little digging, specifically in Florida, but I'm sure it was very similar everywhere. Just because I was like, how do you. How do you change your Social Security number? How do you. Like, I don't know. I'm just intrigued by that process. And it's actually not that interesting because it's not that hard back then. Today it would be hard, but they didn't have centralized identification records in Florida. You could really just, like, you know, if you had a strong enough birth record document, even if it wasn't real, which I guess is probably today. But it didn't even have to be a birth certificate. It could be, like, a baptism. It could be school records, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, yeah, you just. You can just. It's. I don't know. You can just find your own little set of documents and say, one got lost or one got smudged and call it a day.

[B]

And no one can prove or disprove anything. Like, you could just say, this is who you are. And back in the day, they had no choice but to be like, yep.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of dogfish back then that we just didn't. Nobody had any way of figuring out.

[B]

I actually, along these lines, might have a dogfish story of my own.

[A]

And my family. Mackenzie.

[B]

I don't know. I gotta talk to my mom and see if she'll let me share, But I think it would be interesting to know.

[A]

I feel like in some ways, it's not to this extent, because I know in my family, it's not to my knowledge, not to this extent, but there are pieces of information that I found out because I was looking on ancestry.com, you know, like, I didn't know my aunt was going by a nickname the whole time. Like, little things like that and sometimes bigger things. And today with. With 23andMe and whatever, it's like, yes, they're solving these big murders like the Golden State Killer, or you. You just mentioned Jack the Ripper. But they're also changing individual lives with the way they're revealing stuff about your past.

[B]

I'm so curious now.

[A]

Yeah, you have to report back.

[B]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask my mama. I'm gonna ask her. Okay. She can be like. She'll be like, no, but it's fine. We'll ask her.

[A]

We can anonymize it. We do that really well. I mean, I guess if it's your story, people will figure it out.

[B]

I'll be like, this is not my family story. And then they'll know that it's not my family.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[B]

I'm already the black sheep. What are y' all gonna do, kick me out?

[A]

This is crazy. So he. He up and left. The single mom. Her grandma is such a strong woman. And I'm thinking about that, too, where it's like, we. That's who we would be talking to if this was happening today. Like, we would have had her on. And now it's like, if data detectives had existed back then, would she have had to put her head down so much and be so. Just plowing forward without dealing with it? I'm Grateful that we live in a time with the dating detectives. Call me biased.

[B]

I feel like we're finding out so much more information than we ever realized could ever be true with the. You know, how the. The up and coming of Internet and DNA and genetics and all these things.

[A]

It's incredible to me, and it's revealing how many people are going through stuff like this and you're not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Only. You're not the only person or family or. Or woman that's had a husband leave them. Like, his second wife had the same thing. He. He left her, too. I mean, it's pretty wild, but she. Yeah. I almost want to, like, dedicate this episode to all of the women who had to deal with dogfish in silence over the. The. Over history. Before there were advocates and people that.

[B]

And before there were resources.

[A]

Yeah. And resources to get to the bottom of it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And double dedication if you had 13 children. Because she just sounds like the fact that she raised a group of people that are also wonderful despite this generational trauma.

[B]

But that's a lot of therapy. Like, all it takes is one person. All it takes is one person to deceive a group of others, and so many people can be hurt by that. That's a lot of therapy.

[A]

Yeah. We talk about the initial impact of dogfish a lot, but we don't always talk about the generational trauma of it. And I wish we could get through to some of these people who don't think about those consequences before they make those decisions. And if we get through to even one, I guess we'll call that progress. But progress we don't think about it, man. The fact that he was able to find her family through this search for biological parents. Randy is so interesting to me. And it's like he does what you do in a different way.

[B]

Yeah. And so that's interesting because I was. I was actually just sharing with one of my friends, when you're looking for information, there's someone could look for five years for a biological parent, like someone who's adopted. I've had someone look for someone for, like, five years for sure. For someone they're related to and they couldn't find them. But it took me less than an hour. And that's because I. There are you. We underestimate how everyone is connected. Like, you underestimate that your mom's brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews married into this family and how you're. You just. You don't realize how the webs are very, very, very, very connected. And so when you can especially with genetics, like, there's no. That's, you know, you can't deny that. So with me doing my investigation, I'm putting together pieces that may or may not be, and I have to find proof. And then if you're a geneticist, it's like. I'm sorry, his name.

[A]

Randy.

[B]

Right. If you're a geneticist like Randy, and you can find this information, like, based on these connections, these physiological, like biological connections.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's no denying it. And so. Oh, man. Crazy. It's so cool.

[A]

Have you ever worked with a geneticist or somebody in that area for a case or not had.

[B]

No, not. Not me personally, but I'm sure if.

[A]

I'm sure there's overlap among.

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

And there's. There are ways, because it's still really young. Like, it's not something that's easily done. It can be done. If you're a fan of Paul Holes. Paul Holes is really great. He's a true crime guy. He's someone who talks a lot about DNA and using DNA to, you know, track down serial killers and stuff like that. And I think that there. It's still. As much as we talk about it, we're like, DNA, DNA, DNA. Since, like, you know, all these cases for the last 20 years. But it's still not super, super common for investigation, especially for private investigation. But for a family to be able to just go to, like, to have a geneticist find somebody, that's not super common yet.

[A]

Yeah, it's. There's a whole conversation around it because sometimes I think about. It's such valuable information to have people's genetics in the wrong hands. That can be really scary. But also, I. I mean, it's like I have nothing to hide. And I assume authorities probably know most about me anyway. You know what I mean? Like, I think about. Over. Not that I'm the person they're really looking for, but it's just. I don't know, it's just a whole interesting new world that we live in. I want to hear if people have had experiences with DNA testing that have led them to information, good or bad. Dog fest.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What have you experienced with that? And have you. Have you. Have you. Are you the member of a family where someone in your family has not.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Well, and also, how do you.

[C]

Then.

[A]

I'm sure how many people have had the conversation where they're like, ooh, Dad's not my dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do we bring this up to the fam like that. I see that happening on Tick Tock all The time just.

[B]

I just see it being so traumatic for some. But if you have your own story, we'd love to hear it. You can email it to us. Investigate the Dating Detectives podcast.com and share with us what you're experiencing. And if you have questions, send them over. If you have, you know, comments for our guest, we would love to. To share them with her.

[A]

Yeah. And nice, nice words to share with Taylor because she was so sweet. And also, I just love the way she handled, like, at the end when she was like, yeah, I guess I am kind of a leader in the family. It's like, no kidding. And I would follow you anywhere.

[B]

Hundred percent. Yes, absolutely.

[A]

So we always try to pass along kind messages to our guests because this is the reason we are able to have a show, because people are so brave and want their story to help you guys. So thank you for submitting. And whether we read it on Patreon or on an episode, it's a huge, huge thing for a lot of people. So thank you. Oh, this was a very different story for us.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty different, but it's still interesting. And I'm excited that we got to that. I'm excited that Taylor trusted us to share that, because I know there were some stuff that there was some stuff, you guys, that she did not want recorded, and I don't blame her. And so it's still very vulnerable for her. Like, some people think, oh, this is old. This is whatever. But this is very intense for her. So thank you for listening. Thank you for your support for our guests.

[A]

And that is a reminder that if you're hesitant to share a story, we do anonymize everything. We work with a legal team, and we are with you every step of the way. Our producer Molly's amazing, and we just, you know, whatever you're comfortable sharing about your story, we always are respectful of that. So we really are. Are always ready for you when you're ready for us.

[B]

Yeah. And thank you for being here. And as always, trust your femtu.

[D]

Sam.