Reporter (2:42)

Me, Mr. President, they get their money back.

Donald Trump (2:45)

We don't. And now we do.

David Pakman (2:46)

But so Trump claiming that Macron is lying. Later, during this very same event, Emmanuel Macron with a scowling Donald Trump sitting next to him is willing to say what Trump and Hagseth and Mike Schatz or whatever the guy's name is, that Russia's the aggressor. It's that simple. We don't have to come up with some complicate. It's just Russia's the aggressor. The French president is willing to say it. The American president is one different than the other.

Audience Member (3:15)

You can take the proceeds from it. How can you not?

David Pakman (3:17)

Speaker 1 Because it's very different.

Emmanuel Macron (3:18)

You keep the assets, you take the proceeds because they are paralyzed in a certain way. You take the proceeds during the wartime, but you keep the assets. And it's part of the negotiation at the end of the war because I mean, this war costed all of us a lot of money. And this is the responsibility of Russia because the aggressor is Russia.

Audience Member (3:34)

Should the US Be compensated?

Emmanuel Macron (3:36)

So at the end of the day, this frozen asset should be part of the negotiation.

Audience Member (3:40)

All in all, will France support the US Being compensated?

Emmanuel Macron (3:44)

I support the idea to have Ukraine first being compensated because they are the one to have lose a lot of their fellow citizens and being destroyed by this.

David Pakman (3:53)

And look at Trump's sitting there like a petulant child. Trump does not like being corrected. Trump does not like narratives counter to his being presented. And the narrative as Trump has presented it is, listen, Russia's lost a lot. They've given up a lot of people. Yes. In a war they chose to start, etcetera, etcetera. Trump doesn't like when Macron does this and Macron doesn't care. That's also part. Trump doesn't like the substance, but he doesn't like how is this guy so self assured and confident to come to my house in my country and tell me I'm wrong and tell me that the drivel that's been spilling out of my mouth about Russia for weeks and months now isn't true. How dare he. Later, during this same event, Trump was asked, you've called Zelensky a dictator, which is really weird. You've called Zelensky a dictator. Are you willing to call Putin a dictator? It might not shock you to hear that Donald Trump does not call Vladimir Putin a dictator.

Reporter (5:00)

Dictator.

David Pakman (5:00)

Would you use the same words regarding Putin?

Donald Trump (5:05)

I don't use those words lightly. I think that we're going to see how it all works out. Let's see what happens. I think we have a chance of a really good settlement between various countries. And you know, you're talking about Europe and you're talking about Ukraine as part of that.

David Pakman (5:21)

So he doesn't call Putin a dictator. And Macron can do nothing but just sit there and smirk, probably thinking, who knows what Macron is thinking. Finally, from this very strange event, a reporter asks Trump a really specific question, which is the US Voted against the UN resolutions that Ukraine proposed. Can you tell us why? And Trump's like, I'd rather not. And of course the answer, the real explanation is Trump has no idea why or the reason why is we are under the thumb of Putin. Whatever the whether the answer is, I can't give you the rationale because I don't understand it, or I'm not going to give you the rationale because it's I'll do whatever Putin wants. Either way, Trump does not want to address.

Donald Trump (6:07)

In the U.S. go ahead, please.

Audience Member (6:08)

Can you explain the rationale in having the US vote against the UN resolutions that Ukraine proposed and also the US proposed?

Donald Trump (6:15)

I would rather not explain it now, but it's sort of self evident.

David Pakman (6:19)

I love that. I would prefer not to explain why, why we did what we did, even though the the world is confused as to why we did it. So Trump, dare I say, emasculated by President Macron. But then this is nothing compared to the health drama that this meeting has generated. Let's talk about that next. Donald Trump's bruised hands have triggered a health panic. Many have predicted that a Donald Trump 2025 health event would be the defining story of this year. And we now have growing concern about Donald Trump's bruised hands. Trump has a noticeable large bruise on the back of a hand. This became notable in the middle of these kind of hanged handshake battles that Trump is known for. This time it was indeed with French President Emmanuel Macron, Trump calling attention to his hands with this kind of thing that I am going to play for you here. And this led to photographs where people started looking at Trump's hands and said, what on earth is going on there? Now, to be very clear, this is speculation. This is one of the least transparent administrations and we are all left to speculate about something that simply doesn't make medical sense unless something is being hidden. Now, first of all, if you watch the video or you see the photos, this is not a typical spot where you would bump something and get a bruise. I'll give you an example. When my daughter had a throw up, as she likes to say, and in a panic I ran to get a bowl, the door of my dishwasher was open and I smashed my shin against it and Many of you I know know that pain that led to a bruise on my shin. It's a typical spot where you would end up with such a bruise. The back of the hand is not a typical spot. It's not what would get caught in a door. It's not what would get banged by something. Generally, when you get a bruise there, we ask other questions. Now, some celebrities and high profile people are on these recreational IVs for energy boosts or vitamins or whatever else. Maybe that's what happened. Trump's 78 years old. Sometimes people bruise more easily as they age. And if he's getting these recreational IVs, you get a bruise, right? That's not exactly a scandal. It's basically a part of the kind of strange world of intravenous wellness treatments. I know somebody where every time they travel, they land in a new city, they immediately find an IV company that does in home service. They say it helps their jet lag. I get this neon green B12 infusion. Okay, fine. So maybe that's the explanation. Now, of course, others have pointed out that that is a typical spot for IV related bruising, and that can often connect with much more serious medical reasons. There could be regular blood draws because of some condition Trump has that we haven't been told about. It could be related to something like blood thinners. It could be because Trump is receiving some kind of IV treatment. We have no official statement from the White House regarding the bruising. At this point in time, the only things we know are Trump and Macron indulged in the handshake games. Trump's hand shows a dark discoloration, maybe even apparently covered by some makeup. It seems it's not only that they haven't told us what it is, there may have been an attempt to actually cover it up with makeup based on the appearance. And this bruise is in a spot that is not your typical bruising location from bumping a table or a door. But it is a spot where one would have an iv. Will we get a statement? I don't know. Should there be transparency? Especially if you claim to be the most transparent administration in history? I would say the answer is yes. Thank you to the 111,000 of you who have subscribed to my YouTube channel in the last month. Yes, 111,000 new YouTube subscribers. We are pushing to 3 million. Consider hitting the subscribe button. It really helps us a lot. And I will keep you apprised of our progress to3.3 million. We will take a very quick break and the show continues right after this. Big companies with poor security get hacked every day and your personal information is being sold on the dark web so criminals can target you. Not something I have to worry about as much since I have Aura, our sponsor. Aura vigilantly scans the dark web to see if any of your personal information has been leaked, like login credentials or addresses Social Security number. Aura also will alert you in real time if any criminals use that information fraudulently, for example to try to open a credit card and to keep you from getting hacked in the first place. Aura offers additional safety features like advanced anti malware and password management for every device you have, and your subscription comes with $5 million in identity theft insurance just in case. Aura even provides parental controls to let kids explore the Internet safely, with tools to filter harmful sites, manage apps and limit screen time. Go to aura.com/pacman to try it for two weeks totally free. With the free trial, it takes only seconds to see if your personal data has already been compromised. Protect yourself and your family. Now that's a u r a.com/pacman to try Aura free for two weeks. The link is in the podcast Notes.

Sponsor (12:30)

One of our sponsors today is Peak who make delicious Pu er tea. These are absolutely delicious. I've become a huge fan. Peaks Pu er tea is naturally fermented, delivering probiotics that can support gut health and digestion. It's sourced from 250-year-old tea trees, which means it says nutrient dense as tea tea can get. I love Peak's black Puer tea. It's nice and bold, perfect for after meals. I also really like the Green P tea which is perfect for mornings with a fresh vibrant taste that gets you.

David Pakman (13:06)

Ready for the day.

Sponsor (13:07)

And the best part is it's just so easy to prepare. Peak's pre measured packets dissolve instantly in.

David Pakman (13:13)

Hot or cold water.

Sponsor (13:15)

No brewing, no mess, just incredible tea in seconds. And that convenience is really something that sets Peak poor teas apart. Ready to transform your tea game? For a limited time, peak is offering 20% off your order plus a free rechargeable frother. Head to peaklife.com pacman that's P I Q U E life.com pacman There's a reason Peak has over 15,000 five star star reviews. Try it for yourself risk free with their 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you either love it or get your money back. Go to peaklife.com pacman for 20% off. That's P I Q U E life.com pacman for 20% Off. You can find the link in the podcast notes.

David Pakman (14:07)

The David Pakman show is an audience supported program. We depend on you to support the work that we do. The upside and the downsides of this are significant. The upside of depending on our audience to do what we do is that there's no media conglomerate, producers, executive producers, editors and others influencing what we cover. What I say, the positions I take. The downside is that we have no primary source of funding, but rather the funding is very much distributed amongst people who might say, we like what you do and we want to support it, or we don't like it and we're not going to support it. But if you want to talk about the marketplace of ideas, that really is it. So I invite you. If you do value the work that we do, consider getting a membership@join pacman.com and get the full experience, including the daily bonus show, commercial, free audio and video streams of the show, and so much more. @join pacman.com A new data show that Americans are heading for the exits to get the hell away from the current administration. The trend of Americans considering immigration under Trump's second term is much more serious than that vague I'm going to move to Canada sort of thing. You know, we, we often hear it more from people on the left than on the right. If X person wins, I'm moving to Canada. If George W. Bush gets reelected in 2004, I'm moving to Canada. That was a common one. This is not that. Expat consultants and firms that specialize in dual citizenship are busier than ever and they are fielding a huge number of calls from Americans who are just looking at how could I leave the country now? This includes skilled professionals, this includes scientists. This includes people who are just looking to do something different elsewhere. If you look at Germany's Max Planck Society, they have seen a huge increase in applications from American researchers. And there are other countries that are saying Trump has generated a new talent pool by virtue of what they are doing with DOGE and with federal governments. We're seeing marginalized groups, LGBTQ people, people of color actively looking for ways to leave the country over concerns about authoritarianism and discrimination and potentially even violence. Ireland reported a 50% increase in Americans applying for Irish passports. And many of those are citing the Trump administration as the motivating factor. You look at Google trend data and you see spikes in searches for dual citizenship or citizenship by dissent. You saw it after Election Day, we saw it after Inauguration Day. And then you have companies like Polaron, which helps people get European citizenship by descent. They have seen A huge increase of Americans looking for Plan B. Now, I've said before, I am entitled to Polish citizenship because my grandfather, who was Jewish, fled Poland related to the Holocaust. The problem I've had is that the documentation to prove, prove that lineage is mostly Argentinian, which is not accepted by Poland. And any documents that would be left in Poland or what was then Poland are now in Belarus because of the shifting borders. And so because of the lack of diplomatic relations between Poland and Belarus, even though I would be entitled to such citizenship, I have found no way to obtain those documents. But it is certainly something that I would be interested in doing. Many Americans do have the documentation either to Italy or to Poland or to Ireland, Ireland or other places, and they are moving forward with that. If you look at TikTok filled with accounts and influencer influencers who give advice, how do you do it? One channel called Escape the USA is blowing up proportionally and offers tips about how do you do it? How can you legally leave the country? A lot of this has to do with Trump's executive orders rolling back all sorts of different protections and diversity programs. This also includes people who just feel targeted by policies or feel targeted by rhetoric. And this has an economic impact. The, you know, you say this to MAGA people and they go, get these sissies the hell out of here. No real man would want to go to Europe and sip espresso. Well, the problem is when skilled professionals leave, when young people leave, that you need in order to counterbalance the growing number of retirees that can have real economic consequences. So this is not just about, you know, disgruntled people making empty threats. This reflects real concerns with the direction that Trump is sending the country into. Some may choose to stay and fight. Others might say, I've got to go now. As I've said before, I will get phone calls from people who say, hey, my kid is trans and I live in Mississippi. What do you recommend I do? And I always recommend figure out what is best for your family. And even though at scale, we need people to stay and fight, right? If everybody who opposes this insanity leaves, well, then there's no more opposition. So at scale, we need people to stay in fight, fight individually. I would never tell anyone, don't do what's best for you right now. Don't do what's best to keep your family safe. What I will say is that depending on your situation, depending on your priorities, depending on your fears and concerns, moving to a blue state where things are far more normal might be simpler. It's certainly Simpler legally, it's probably simpler financially. So for people thinking of leaving the country, I always say do what's best for you. But consider that there are blue states with stronger economies, better protections, stronger safety nets, which maybe are simpler and better fits. Something to consider. Donald Trump was asked about this email that went out from Doge which said, please respond to this email with five things you did this week and CC your manager. Trump was asked about it and Trump said that there are people who are going to be sort of semi fired. Semi fired? I think in the business world we call it a layoff, but Trump is describing it as a semi firing. Let's see what he had to say.

Audience Member (20:59)

Do you think that Doge could benefit from more streamlined communications? There was that email telling employees to give five things that they've done done last week. Agency heads then told people to ignore it.

Donald Trump (21:10)

But Elon Musk, the last email that was sent where he wanted to know what you did this week. You know why he wanted that, by the way? I thought it was great because we have people that don't show up to work and nobody even knows if they work for the government. So by asking the question, tell us what you did this week, what he's doing is saying, are you actually working? And then if you don't answer like, like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired.

David Pakman (21:35)

Semi fired. I like that.

Donald Trump (21:37)

Because a lot of people are not answering because they don't even exist. They're trying to find that's how there.

David Pakman (21:43)

Are people who don't exist that are getting paid badly.

Donald Trump (21:47)

Various parts of our government were run by, and especially by this last group. So what they're doing is they're trying to find out who's working for the government. Are we paying other people that aren't working? And you know, where is all this? Where's the money going? We have found hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud so far.

David Pakman (22:06)

Broad remember that so far they have not proven a single dollar of fraud.

Donald Trump (22:10)

And we've just started. We're actually going to Fort Knox to see if the gold is there, because maybe somebody stole the gold, tons of.

David Pakman (22:18)

Gold, some of the Asians.

Donald Trump (22:20)

So I think it was actually there was a lot of genius in civilization sending it. We're trying to find out if people are working. And so we're sending a letter to people.

David Pakman (22:28)

Now, of course, the reasons not to send such an email are obviously the effect on morale, that it would have to have an entire government workforce all of a sudden say, is my job dependent on how and if I answer this email. Another reason not to send it would be that their management and supervisors didn't know it was coming and all of a sudden you put them in the position of having to concede to their employees. We don't know what the hell is going on. Don't immediately respond. Another reason not to send it would be that emails from people telling you what they are claiming to have worked on doesn't really get you to the heart of what people are doing or what they should be doing or whether the functions of these departments are valuable to the country or not. There's a million reasons not to send such an email, but Trump likes it and he says if you don't respond, you're going to be semi fired. Now, I'll be honest with you, the deadline for responding has already passed. So far and I'm not saying it hasn't happened so far, I have not seen anything definitive as to have people started to be laid off in droves for non response. What, what is going to be done with that information? Has anything been decided or determined? Or was it another exercise in just wasting people's time? Because that's also something Elon is known for, which is an exercise that you tell people, hey, here's what we're going to do, but then at the end of the day, you don't actually use it to make any actionable decisions, which is just wasting people's time. It's what we would call busy work. And in the midst of this, as Americans see that this is what the administration is focused on, they don't like it. Donald Trump's personal pollster just hit Trump with disastrous polling news and it's looking terrible for the guy. There's a new memo from Donald Trump's own pollster, Tony Fabrizio, who this is the guy who helped engineer Trump's 2020 campaign. He just dropped some bombshell data. Now, let's be real before I give you the data. When has the Republican Party ever let public opinion stop them from doing whatever they want? And the answer is they haven't this time. The numbers are so glaring that they should be paying attention. According to Fabrizio's memo, 59% of voters in 18 critical swing districts are worried about their personal financial situation. Six out of ten are saying, I don't know, that the economy is going in the right direction. For me, that's a major red flag for Republicans, especially when you consider that Democrats are leading right now. The generic House ballot for 2026 by five points. That's brutal. Trump's approval rating in these critical districts, 47%. He's underwater. Not the numbers. You want to see this quickly after the start of a term. And it gets even worse. The memo from Fabrizio highlights that 80% of voters in these swing districts support extending the subsidies of the Affordable Care act that Democrats, Democrats expanded in 2021. These are subsidies that are set to expire this year and Republicans are going to be on the hook for it. If Republicans allow these subsidies to lapse, it should hurt them because it will hurt their constituents. Many of them are working class, many of them are middle class voters. Now, Republicans always blame somebody else. So it's conceivable that, that these popular subsidies for Obamacare will be allowed to expire. It'll be bad for Trump supporters, it'll be bad for everybody, but they will find someone else to blame. It's possible, but it represents a risk. Now, Larry Levitt from the Kaiser Family foundation pointed out more than half of Obamacare enrollees are likely to see their premiums go up in Republican districts. That's not good because Republicans are essentially being told, maybe don't screw over the people who voted for you. But they don't seem to be listening. The polling also found that 63% of voters say that their top tax policy priority is to help working class families. How many say their top priority is helping rich people? 1%. But that's what Trump's tax plan would do. The memo from Trump's pollster also found that a very slim majority supports extending Donald Trump's 2017 tax cuts only when they aren't told anything about them. So if you say, do you want to extend Trump's 2017 tax cuts? It's 5050. Yes and no. When you tell people, here's what the tax cuts do, here's the percentage of the benefits that go to the wealthy, here's the percentage of the benefits that go to the corporations. Support for that goes down dramatically. So Republicans are in a bind. They have built a fiscal agenda around cutting taxes for the wealthy, cutting taxes for corporations, putting tariffs on everything under the kitchen sink, everything under the sun, everything and the kitchen sink. I think I'm mixing metaphors here, which I love to do, but those tariffs are just going to make stuff more expensive for the average American. So this is a very problematic fiscal policy. And the memo is saying, you might not want to do that if you want to try to keep control in 2026. But it doesn't really seem like they care. It doesn't really seem like they're going to listen. We have another disastrous stock market day collapses of all kinds happening. We now have dropped below where the stock market was when Joe Biden left office. It's all looking very bad, but it's not clear. Trump knows. It's not clear Trump understands, It's not clear Trump cares. And so where will we be another month from now? It's anybody's guess. One of our sponsors today is Winchester Wobble Wand Books. Children's books by Winchester Wobble Wand are designed to inspire a lifelong love of reading and creativity for children and families, and the latest book from Winchester Wobble Wand is called the Snooze who Refused To To Choose. This is a whimsical story that takes you into Snooze Town, where the snooze would much rather nap than make decisions. But when the town's troubles grow and young voices plead for help, the Snooze faces a choice he can no longer ignore. It really is a heartwarming tale that introduces kids to the importance of voting, the power of small voices, and the courage to take action in their communities. Every month, Winchester Wobble Wand releases a new book so there's always a new adventure to enjoy. Each book includes a design contest where readers can showcase creativity and win $500 for their hand drawn illustrations. You can get the Snooze who Refused to choose and Explore other Winchester Wobble 1 books on Amazon or by visiting wobble1.com the link is in the description if you're shopping for a new mattress, I can tell you from experience that Helix Sleep is the place to start. I've been sleeping on a Helix mattress for years. It is by far the best mattress I've ever owned and I already know Helix is where I will get my next mattress. Because Helix mattresses are tailored to your specific needs, which is really something that sets them apart. You take a one minute sleep quiz, answer questions, height, weight, sleep position, firmness, preference, do you have back pain, and whether you get hot while sleeping. Helix will match you up with the right mattress so you can sleep your best. Helix matched me with a model that keeps me cool, has the right firmness, and is good for side sleepers. Most people go into the mattress buying process without an idea of what they need. Helix solves that problem. Helix will also remove your old mattress and you get 100 days to decide. Do you love your new Helix MA with a full money back guarantee? When you go to helix sleep.com/pacman, you'll get 27% off site wide plus two free dream pillows with every mattress order, plus a free bedding bundle with any luxe or elite mattress order. This is their best offer available just for my audience. That's H e L I X sleep.com/pacman for 27% off site wide plus two free dream pillows. Let me do that one again. That's Helix. Whoops. That's H E L I X sleep.com/pacman for 27% off site wide plus two free dream pillows with your mattress order or a free bedding bundle with a luxe or elite mattress. The link is in the podcast Notes. It's great to welcome back to the program Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, representing California 17th district, located in the heart of Silicon Valley. You know, it's so great to have you on and right now, because my sense was that in the lead up to the inauguration, you were maybe sounding a little more cautiously, I don't even want to say necessarily optimistic, but maybe cautiously, less pessimistic about what might be an opportunity to get rid of some corruption, some waste. Maybe there would be something could be done with this Trump administration that would be to the greater benefit. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad as the worst predictions were predicting. I have been stunned by how it has exceeded my expectations in how bad it has been. And I mean incompetence, I mean naked nepotism and etc. Give us your sense. We're now, you know, almost five weeks into this thing. How is it comparing with your expectations?

Reporter (32:34)

I think that's a very fair characterization. You know, initially I thought maybe we could actually get some of the defense budget cut.

David Pakman (32:44)

Right?

Reporter (32:45)

I mean, you know, Trump is still floating These things about 10% cut in the Pentagon. And, you know, I voted against almost every defense budget headed to a trillion dollars. And I thought maybe they would actually look at these monopoly contractors that are gouging the American people or look at Medicare Advantage, which has committed systematic fraud on the American people. But the reality is it quickly became clear five to 10 days in, that this was a sledgehammer approach to firing public servants, that this was a sledgehammer approach to dismantling federal agencies with important services for the American public. And most offensively, it was blatantly unconstitutional with no regard for Congress's authority. And I started to speak out about that. And, you know, I've known elon Musk for 15 years and he obviously was not happy, unfollowed me on X and insulted me. But what I've said to him or anyone is you have to follow the Constitution.

David Pakman (33:57)

And it's that that's the number one area where you don't believe that at the end of the day, this approach that they are carrying out with Elon Musk as this unelected bureaucrat, something which he previously criticized. The entire way they're going about it, the executive orders increasing presidential power despite decades of Republicans claiming they want to limit presidential power. You think this is going above and beyond and outside of the consequences Constitution?

Reporter (34:22)

Well, it clearly is. The reality is there are problems with it, even if it was constitutional. The way they're just having a lottery bowl firing of federal workers, many of them doing important work. And tomorrow we're actually getting 15 of these workers, some of them Trump voters, to tell their stories about how they were fired without any notice, without any consideration of their performance in a totally random process. But if you were going to do that, you need Congress. You need Congress before you're eliminating agencies. The evidence of this was Bill Clinton and Al Gore actually eliminated 351,000 federal jobs. It's controversial. Some people say, okay, make government more efficient. Somewhat. People say, no, it just outsourced these jobs to private contractors. But they did it. And they did it by coming to Congress and passing a restructuring Federal Workforce act of 1994. Musk can't just be making these decisions himself when Congress has explicitly authorized those agencies. And one, because I know you're a detailed person, David, if Congress just said, look, here's $100,000 for a program, Musk has discretion on how that's going to be used. But what he doesn't have discretion over is when Congress is mandating what the programs must be spent on. And he's clearly not listening to Congress.

David Pakman (35:44)

One of the things you've been doing, which I also do, is you've been appearing on some right wing shows. Patrick Bet David. I saw some others. I like doing that in some general sense just to kind of see what are they talking about, what are their arguments, how do they react to my perspective? I also worry about how sometimes, you know, they do the whole the left has gone crazy, but you're one of the good ones routine, which I feel is kind of counterproductive sometimes to our cops. How do you manage that when you do these shows?

Reporter (36:19)

So disheartening. Because I do these shows, I feel like we've had actually a fairly constructive conversation for three hours. And then the 30 second clip will be my answer. Defending transgender rights, of transgender rights should be, you know, People should have dignity. And it's literally like five minutes of this three hour conversation. But that's the clip and that's the clip that generates all the attention. Yeah, you know, I, what I do is going on as a progressive Democrat and defending progressive values, not just saying, okay, I'm only going to talk about the economy. I think what I, what I'm I'm doing is, is creating a model that you don't have to be kind of quote, unquote, one of the good ones or one of the people who is unwilling to speak about cultural values, that we should be having these conversations and the, this country, that it's important to be having these conversations and it's important to be saying the same thing on those shows as I say here. But why do I do it? It's not so much persuasion, though. That's part of it. It's also. So I understand where they're coming from. And I'll give you a concrete case of where I got this. Look, I was totally opposed, and still am, to the pardons of January six folks who committed violence and tore down the Capitol building and hit police officers. But it's interesting when they talk about it. They talk about the few cases where there were misdemeanors charged with people who didn't commit any violence, didn't commit any property damage, just were swept in, in the crowds. And this is where we're not talking to each other.

Donald Trump (37:54)

Right.

Reporter (37:54)

We're focused on the violence and the horrific acts. They're focused on these stories that are more sympathetic of. And my criticism of Garland is he did too many of the misdemeanor charges and not the real charges. So those are places where, which is why I think it's important to go on to see what, what is the other side saying? Is there any place where you can actually have a conversation that advances common ground?

David Pakman (38:18)

You wrote this very interesting op ed in the New York Times in which you outline potentially some of the elements of a path forward for Democrats in what's looking like a sort of pretty grim scenario, at least for the next couple of years. I recently interviewed on the program Senators Booker, Warren, Klobuchar and Schiff, and my audience was feeling as though some of the vision as to exactly how do we fix the problems that we are up against. My audience universally, the response was for people who mostly have their heads on and, you know, their heads in the right place. So they've identified part of the problem at least. But we're not really feeling that there is a Solution here, you know, generically talking about we've got to meet voters where they are. Okay, yeah, fine. I mean, that's a 50 year old phrase that gets recycled over and over again. What does it really mean? Can you talk about as specifically as possible the steps that your party needs to take to address? There was dissatisfaction to some degree with elements of the platform in 2024. What was seen as maybe a dismissal of concerns about crime and immigration. Even if you and I would agree, the facts don't point us to there is a crime surge. I don't believe that there is. I've looked at the data. But many voters felt that the Harris campaign didn't take seriously enough that many voters came to believe that that was a problem. That's just one example. What are the steps you believe need to be taken here?

Reporter (39:56)

Well, I hope people read my piece. I call for a new economic patriotism and then we can see. You'll let me know if they feel that I have adequate vision or not. Here's what I think we have to start with. People are very, very angry and there's a righteous anger at the status quo.

David Pakman (40:15)

Okay.

Reporter (40:15)

And there's a feeling that they're losing control. They're losing control because of globalization. They're losing control control because of the changing demographics and culture in the country. They're losing control because of the technology revolution. There's just this feeling that they don't think their life, their kids life is going to be as successful in the American dream. It's a feeling that white voters, Latino voters, black voters, many of them share across the country. We have to start out by recognizing that anger, recognizing the anger against institutions. But then we need to have very concrete policies of how we're going to change that. We've got to say, look, I get the tariff policy on certain things is maybe one part of it. But if you really want to re industrialize this country in Johnstown, Pennsylvania Warren, Ohio, downriver, Michigan, Milwaukee, we need the federal government making investments with local communities in new steel, in new aluminum, in new shipbuilding, in new pill manufacturing to make us the manufacturing superpower and have that not just happen in Houston or Columbus, but to actually look at communities that have been hard hit. And to do that, we need to make sure that this technology revolution that's happening, we have 100,000 new digital jobs, many of them won't require a college degree. And those jobs shouldn't just be in the coast. We need to have 100,000 new through the jobs program. Electricians, plumbers and Skilled trade, so that in high school we actually have a pathway for people who don't have a college degree to have high paying jobs. And we need to make sure this is in every part of the country. And then we need to make sure that people have economic independence and economic security. That means Medicare for all. That means free public college or vocational education. That means people should have a living wage and they should be have some stocks ownership. So every American family deserves that. Now you could say, oh, does this sound like a laundry list? No. What I'm talking about is concrete economic transformation. To understand that the staggering economic inequality both by place and by the working class and the elite is the problem of a lot of this anger. And then secondly, to have also common sense, public safety and border security. But my view is that that is being exacerbated in concern. Understand it for people who feel no control over their lives.

David Pakman (42:46)

See that all of that makes perfect sense to me. And also I think where some of the disconnect is, is that that does not have the same emotional cachet as when Trump gets up there and tells a lurid story of one crime committed by an undocumented immigrant and gets everybody foaming at the mouth with these, you know, bloodthirsty mass deportation ideas. There's an emotional cachet to that, even if it's contrived and not speaking to the economic problems. Even the stuff about we're going to get the men out of women's sports, you know, as. As crazy as a lot of this stuff is in terms of its salience with large portions of the population, I think maybe what my audience is connecting with is that everything you said sounds great and it just lacks the emotional salience, maybe to motivate voters. What would you say to that?

Reporter (43:44)

I disagree. I'd say, here's how I think we provide emotional resonance. I was born in Philadelphia in 1976. My bicenten, the bicentenary of this country. My parents came here in the 1960s after John F. Kennedy, where everyone wanted to come to America because America was the place which was sending someone to the moon. America was the place where we had massive industry. America was the place that would welcome people of all different backgrounds to do incredible economic things. And we've lost that sense of America. But the reality is that this country allowed someone, an Indian American of Hindu faith, to come represent Silicon Valley, the most financially successful place in the world. And the question we have as Americans is, are we going to rebuild this country with the talent and the background of all of us? Regardless of our faith, regardless of our sexual orientation, to rebuild this country into a cohesive multiracial democracy that is going to lead the world? Or are we going to succumb to Donald Trump's division and blame and anger and I believe inspiration, I believe vision, I believe aspiration will overcome the Trump dystopian vision. The problem is Democrats have been too afraid to stand up for the value of immigration. We sort of want to be Republican light. The problem is that when Donald Trump curses, all our politicians think, now let's go curse, as opposed to now, let's be eloquent. The problem is that we are arguing on Donald Trump's register. We need to argue on a different register, a visionary register, which also has a fabric in American history. There Trump has a fabric in American history. Andrew Jackson, the do nothings. But our vision, Lincoln, fdr, Kennedy, Obama also has a register. And the Democrats need to find that register. And that has emotional resonance, too.

David Pakman (45:54)

And I think, I wonder if you would agree that a part of that is finding candidates who can do that simply by being who they genuinely are, rather than, as sometimes seems to be the case, that the Democratic Party will sometimes try to make a candidate something they aren't really. And it seems as though that sometimes is noticeable to voters to some degree. Do you think also the candidate choice has to work and be genuine?

Reporter (46:25)

I think the candidate has said one simple thing. What is their vision for America? How the families are going to fit into that vision and do they really believe that vision and can they convey that vision? What I totally disagree with is this view. Well, now Democrats need a villain. Let's check the box of a villain. Really? You think Jimmy Carter or Barack Obama or Bill Clinton started to think, let's think of who the villain is. They said, here is where America needs to go, here's what's happening, here's my vision for where this country needs to go. And I think that that has to be the. And people can sense it out. That has to be the calling card of anyone running. It's not about let's run someone who's wealthy or not. Let's run someone who's a PhD or working class. Let's run someone who's, who's of this checks this box is do they have a compelling vision for the country? And I think it's really that simple.

David Pakman (47:17)

We've been speaking with Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna. Always appreciate your time. Thank you.

Reporter (47:23)

Thank you, David.

Sponsor (47:25)

So many different VPNs reach out to me, wanting to advertise on the show and I always turn them down because most of them do not pass the sniff test. Most VPNs are all owned by the same big mysterious company. They log your Internet activity so they can sell it or give it to law enforcement. And these VPNs are just out to make a buck without really protecting your privacy. The only VPN I trust enough to have as a sponsor is Private Internet Access. Our sponsor, Private Internet Access, is the only VPN who has proven multiple times in legal proceedings they don't keep logs of your activity. The judge ordered that PIA show user activity history each time they demonstrated.

David Pakman (48:11)

They don't have the records that no.

Sponsor (48:13)

Log policy is also independently audited by Deloitte and PIA is also open source. So you can also see in the code that none of your activity is being logged and you can protect unlimited devices with just a single account. Private Internet access is giving my audience 83% off, which is just 203amonth plus four extra months for free. Go to PIA vpn.com david the link is in the podcast Notes.

David Pakman (48:49)

This new year, how about a habit you can stick to? 1 simple scoop of AG1 every day will get you 75 high quality vitamins and minerals from whole food sources. I have a scoop of AG1 in water before my cappuccino every morning. This way I don't have to mathematically figure out am I getting every vitamin and mineral I need from my diet. I do the best I can, but the Ag one just covers me. I drink it straight with water because I like the taste. You could put it in a smoothie juice shake. AG1 is just a sustainable routine for me because it's a scoop one minute once a day. That is it. I also love the travel packs which let me take AG1 anywhere I go. I've got the big pack of AG1 at home and AG1 is offering new subscribers a free $76 gift. When you sign up, you'll get a welcome kit, a bottle of D3K2 and five free travel packs in your first box. Go to drink ag1.compacman that's drink ag the number1.com/pacman for $76 worth of free gifts in your first box. The link is in the podcast notes. Well, we finally found the Deep State. It turns out that it's Elon Musk and Doge and Donald Trump. Now hear me out. For years right wing commentators have been hyping up the so called Deep state. And that's kind of the idea that there's this secret hidden government pulling the strings behind the scenes, undermining elected officials, steering the country in some shadowy direction, maybe for their own benefit. And Deep State has become sort of a catch all conspiracy used to explain any outcome that they don't like. Now, you might remember when Vivek Ramaswamy was still running for president and he was on this show, when he talked about the Deep State, I asked him who, I said, Vivek, please, who exactly is part of the Deep State? And he sort of hemmed and hawed and the only name he could actually come up with was to say, well, you know, David, it's people like Susan Rice. It turns out that if we take a closer look at the facts, it appears that the closest thing we have to a real life Deep State is Elon Musk and Donald Trump working together behind the scenes to consolidate power and push policies with no transparency and essentially rig the system to serve their own interests. So let's just look at the claims of those who talk about a Deep State and you tell me which one most closely fits the bill. So according to people on the far right, the Deep State operates in secret. Supposedly, the Deep State is a hidden network of officials controlling policy and outcomes without public oversight. Trump and Musk make announcements on social media. They plan policy changes in private. When reporters said, are these 20 year olds in charge of this stuff? Elon Musk started banning people from Twitter for doxxing the supposed individuals that were in charge. Musk's sudden demands for these accomplishment reports from federal employees and these midnight reshufflings of departments, it's all happening behind closed doors. So number one, it's all happening behind closed doors. The box is checked. Secondly, the Deep State serves an elite few. So the claim is that the Deep State network caters to a small group of power players or political insiders who is wealthier or more elite than a former billionaire president. Current billionaire, current president once again, and one of the richest tech moguls on the planet. They have repeatedly steered policy what they want to do with taxes, what they want to do with regulatory rollbacks. It benefits corporations, allies and themselves rather than the broader public. Second one benefits an elite few. Check number three. The Deep State supposedly undermines the elected government. The argument is the Deep State will sabotage a legitimate administration's agenda. Ironically, we see Trump, Musk and Doge working around or even against the conventional structures of the executive branch. Musk, who's never been elected to anything, issues these sweeping mandates to federal employees, undermining the traditional chain of Command. Trump brags about either ignoring or firing people who dare to follow the standard procedures rather than doing what Elon Musk wants them to do. Check. Once again, a lack of accountability is another allegation about the deep state. They say, oh, you know, these deep state bureaucrats never face repercussions. They hide behind secrecy. And indeed, Trump's famous for being unaccountable. Musk is famous for being unaccountable. They avoid standard ethics guidelines, they shrug off congressional oversight. They've set up Doge in a way where Musk doesn't even need to be subjected to confirmation hearings. And they say any type of oversight is a witch hunt. It's all the. It's biased, it's the fake news, it's the media. It's a witch hunt. They run everything by decree. That's about as unaccountable as you can be. And then finally, they centralize control over institutions. This is another one of the claims about the deep state, which is they wield this immense power over institutions of the government. They ignore public opinion, they ignore democratic norms. Well, look no further than Doge, which is centralizing control and oversight over all of the federal government, everything from the IRS to Homeland Security to everything in between ignoring the experts in the agencies, ignoring the people who know what's going on, and overriding all of it with these handpicked loyalists. So I have never believed in the right wing deep state conspiracy theory, but like with so much of what these MAGA people put forward, its projection, they accuse the other side of doing what they are actually doing. And if you said to me, what's the closest thing to the deep state right now that they claim exists, it's them. It's the current Trump administration, it's Elon Musk, it's the unelected loyalist bureaucrats and a cabinet and set of advisers made up of more billionaires and turbo millionaires than any in American history. I still am skeptical about the deep state stuff. But if you forced my hand and said, david, find the deep state, it's what we're seeing right now in the West Wing and in the White House more broadly. Disagree with me. Tell me where I'm wrong on the facts. Don't just write me insults, please. Donald Trump and the administration are facing a rapidly and increasing, rapidly growing and increasingly furious set of former supporters. This is very, very interesting. Let's look at some of these examples. There is a Trump voter who goes by ken p. On TikTok who's been posting about how already he has Lost faith in the guy he voted for. Let's listen to a little bit of this.

H (56:24)

All I can say I was a dumbass, voted for Trump only because of my beliefs. People around me encouraged it. I can think for myself, yes. But I felt at the time that that was the better choice. Now I'm looking at it with everything going on is the worst. The worst decision I ever made. I wanted not to vote, but people said, you won't be able to have a say in anything if you don't vote.

David Pakman (56:54)

KEN P. He regrets it. He figured it out quickly. You know, to his credit, at least he's willing to admit it, because a lot of these people will never admit it. They will go down with the ship. Here's another.

H (57:05)

You know, for now, me and my wife can afford things and I know prices are going to go double on everything it, if not triple, and we're still okay, I think. But what about the people that don't have the money? What about the people that could only afford what they could now? Now they ain't gonna be able to afford that. What's gonna happen with them?

David Pakman (57:31)

Very good question and something that a lot of these voters are going to have to contend with. Just one last video here from. From Ken.

H (57:37)

I see the stock market's crashing. It's going to get bad guys, bad. I know I contributed to it.

David Pakman (57:45)

Now that I'm sorry for this, you know, I know that there's a movement right now among progressives to say, screw these people. I don't care about them. They're going to get what they deserve. Listen, they're going to get what they deserve. But especially for the ones that have figured it out and have acknowledged I made a mistake, I feel bad for them. I feel. I feel empathy. Maybe it's my problem that I'm too empathetic, but this is. This doesn't make me happy. What I think is marginally reassuring is that at least some of these people are willing to acknowledge it. The Wall Street Journal did interviews with a bunch of these folks as well. They spoke to someone, Stacey White, a Trump voter, who said, when we said safer borders, I thought he was thinking, let's stop the drugs from coming into the country. I didn't know he was going to start raiding places. Now I'm like, dang, why didn't I just pick Kamala? Well, Trump did say that he was going to start raiding places. If you didn't hear that, it's because you weren't paying attention. Stacey. Emily Anderson also spoke to the Wall Street Journal for the same piece. And Emily said, quote, I feel so stupid, guilty, regretful, embarrassed is a huge one. I am absolutely embarrassed that I voted for Trump. And then we also have video of Robert, who is a laid off worker, who said, I was a Trump supporter.

I (59:13)

I was a Trump supporter. You know, when he talks about government waste and all that, yes, I'm behind it. I believe there is a lot of stuff in the government that, that needs fixing. And that's part of the reason why I actually wanted to work for the government, actually to help change, help change the things that are wrong in the world, you know, and I thought that, I thought that someone with like his business acumen would have come in with a fine tooth comb and actually found it instead of coming in with a wrecking ball and destroying people's lives for no reason.

David Pakman (59:50)

Yep. One of the things that is always interesting is when a politician promises to do certain things and it's so crazy that a lot of voters hear it and they go, he must not mean it because it's so crazy. And then they do it and then everybody's shocked and surprised. And this is the risk when the crazier, the promise from Trump, there are people willing to just say, oh, he, I'm sure he doesn't really mean it because it's just the way he talks or whatever. And then he does it and then people suffer and they go, I was surprised. I didn't think he was really going to do this stuff. As I've said before, without a doubt, many elected officials make promises that they fail to accomplish. Right. They say, we're going to, as Trump said during the first term, we're going to build a wall with Mexico. Mexico will pay for or didn't happen. We're going to. Jared will solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict swinging a miss. We are going to replace Obamacare with something big and beautiful. Didn't happen. Right. So there's promises that are made which they are unable to do because they're unrealistic. When Trump talks about the horrible dystopian stuff, it's a different category. It's not. You might fail to do this because it's really difficult. You know, if a candidate says, we're going to have world peace, you might struggle to accomplish that. These are things that are so outlandish where we say, why would anyone want to do that? And those have to be interpreted differently. The mistake that some make is they go, politicians always promise stuff during campaigns and then they don't do it. Yes. But some of the things they don't do because they are too difficult to do other things. It's more about why would anybody be so whacked in the head that they would try to do it. And those have to be evaluated differently. I feel bad for these people. I do. And I know many of you don't. And I hear from you guys saying, David, don't feel bad for these people. They now will get what they deserve. That may be, but it's bad for the economy overall. And also lots of people who didn't vote for it are also going to get it, even though they don't deserve it, thanks to the people who did. So. My instinct is always empathy. What can we do now? How can we prevent it from happening again? Now on the bonus show today, we are going to discuss that the US has voted against the UN Resolution urging Russia's withdrawal from Ukraine. Why? When they asked Trump, he said he wasn't going to say why. We played that clip earlier. We will discuss the resolution. Secondly, rumors are that the Eagles have the Philadelphia Eagles have declined a White House invitation as of this morning. That is not true. We will talk about where the rumor came from, whether it actually could happen and more. And finally, Donald Trump has canceled Joe Biden's ethics rules. And critics are saying this is the opposite of drain the swamp. We will tell you what rules those are. And we will get the latest on Pat's investigation taking place in Mexico. On today's bonus show, sign up@join pacman.com to get instant access. Don't miss it. Don't miss it. And also remember that for just a few more days, I'm going to be up in Boston signing the book. Soon you can get signed copies, signed copies of my forthcoming book, the Echo Machine, exclusively at David pakman.com/booksmith. I was just notified by the bookstore, 500 books is what I'm going to have to sign so far. I don't know how long that's going to take, but they said, david, we're going to have them all open to the right page. We'll have huge oversized Sharpies for you to sign. I think we're going to get like a time lapse of me signing the books when I go up there. So anyway, if you want to participate, the one place to get the signed copies, David pakman.com booksmith of course not. Signed books, ebooks, audiobooks also available, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, local bookstores and everywhere. So I will see you on the bonus show. I will see you back here tomorrow.