4/15/25: Deporting citizens goes mainstream as dictatorship in focus

Summary

Podcast Summary: The David Pakman Show
Episode: April 15, 2025 - Deporting Citizens Goes Mainstream as Dictatorship in Focus

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The David Pakman Show, host David Pakman delves into the alarming signs of authoritarianism emerging within the federal government. Through incisive analysis and a deep discussion with Jonathan Allen, co-author of the New York Times bestseller Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House, Pakman explores the gradual erosion of democratic institutions and the potential path toward dictatorship.

---

The Emergence of Authoritarianism

David Pakman begins the episode by addressing a contentious yet crucial term: dictatorship. He asserts that while the United States still maintains democratic frameworks like elections and an independent judiciary, there are troubling signs indicating a drift towards authoritarianism.

David Pakman [00:07]:
"Devolution into dictatorship. Becoming a dictatorship. And becoming is a key word."

Pakman clarifies that he is not equating the current administration to historical dictators like Hitler but emphasizes that the structural decay within governmental institutions is a concerning trend. He highlights several indicators of this shift:

• Ignoring Judicial Rulings: The Trump administration's recent refusal to comply with a Supreme Court decision ordering the return of a wrongly deported man from El Salvador exemplifies this disregard for the judiciary.

  David Pakman [05:30]:
  "The Trump administration is defying a 9-0 Supreme Court ruling ordering them to return a wrongly deported man from El Salvador back to the United States. Their responses? We're not doing it. We'll look at video of that, Trump alongside the Salvadorian president a little bit later."

• Centralization of Power: Pakman points out the concentration of authority in the executive branch, the demonization of civil society, and the framing of opposition as illegitimate.

• Attacks on the Press and Academia: Critical media voices and educational institutions are being labeled as disloyal or traitorous, undermining their role as checks on power.

Pakman references Plato’s warnings about the rise of dictators, noting the typical pattern where a charismatic leader exploiting public frustration gradually undermines institutional safeguards.

David Pakman [02:15]:
"Plato warned about this. First the people get angry and they get desperate. Then a strong man comes in, loud and angry and vengeful and sometimes charismatic. Who says he is the only one who can fix it."

---

Case Study: Deporting Citizens to El Salvador

A focal point of the episode is the Trump administration's policy shift towards deporting U.S. citizens to El Salvador, a move that Pakman labels as indicative of authoritarian tendencies.

David Pakman [13:58]:
"Donald Trump: Demanded. The people wanting to change their difference and they want you in love with you. I want criminals next. Yeah, I said."

Pakman critiques Trump's discourse, highlighting the illegal deportations and the administration's refusal to rectify these actions despite judicial mandates.

David Pakman [14:17]:
"Donald Trump: Homegrown next. The home runs. You got to build about five more places. Yeah, that's fair. All right. It's not big enough."

He underscores the legal and constitutional violations inherent in these policies, stressing the importance of adherence to the rule of law to prevent further erosion of democratic norms.

David Pakman [16:59]:
"Donald Trump: ...he has to release criminal so we can go back to being the murdered capital of the world and that's not going to happen."

The episode includes a clip of Stephen Miller, a Trump adviser, who vehemently defends the administration's actions against Supreme Court rulings, further illustrating the administration's authoritarian leanings.

Stephen Miller [22:33]:
"He was not mistakenly sent to El Salvador."

Pakman dissects this interaction, emphasizing how the dismissal of judicial decisions as "kidnapping" aligns with authoritarian rhetoric, where the rule of law is only respected when it benefits those in power.

---

In-Depth Conversation with Jonathan Allen

The episode features an enlightening conversation with Jonathan Allen, a three-time New York Times bestselling author and senior political reporter for NBC News. Allen co-authored Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House, providing unique insights into the 2024 election dynamics.

Biden and Harris Campaign Dynamics

Allen discusses the struggles within Joe Biden’s campaign, particularly his relationship with Vice President Kamala Harris. He reveals how Biden's leadership style and concerns over his legacy hindered Harris's campaign efforts.

Jonathan Allen [35:08]:
"President Biden leaned over Kamala Harris's shoulder and telling her there should be no daylight between the two of them. He was very concerned about his legacy..."

Allen elaborates on the internal challenges faced by the Biden-Harris ticket, including diminishing support and strategic missteps that ultimately led to Harris stepping aside.

Impact of the June 27 Debate

The June 27 debate emerges as a pivotal moment in the campaign, significantly influencing both Democratic and Republican strategies. Allen explains how this debate exposed weaknesses within Biden’s campaign and galvanized opposition forces.

David Pakman [36:24]:
"Did something happen earlier to change that view?"

Jonathan Allen [36:24]:
"It was a dispositive event for Nancy Pelosi... Obama was stunned by it, as everyone was."

This debate not only served as a catalyst for change within the Democratic Party but also prompted strategic reevaluations within the Trump campaign, balancing between vindication and concern over potential Democratic resurgence.

Polling and Campaign Realizations

Allen highlights the discrepancies between internal polling and public perception, noting that honest assessments revealed Trump gaining traction in key swing states even as official narratives remained optimistic.

Jonathan Allen [48:51]:
"Harris is rising... internal polling showed her winning a majority of the electoral votes... they had Trump winning."

He underscores the mismanagement and misrepresentation within the campaign leadership, leading to a disconnect between reality and the information being disseminated to supporters.

---

Final Thoughts: The Path Forward

David Pakman concludes the episode by reiterating the urgency to recognize and address authoritarian tendencies before they become entrenched. He calls for vigilance in upholding democratic institutions and adhering to the rule of law.

David Pakman [25:12]:
"If you don't do anything when you see the warning sign, before you know it, it's too late."

Pakman emphasizes the importance of collective action and awareness to prevent the further erosion of democratic norms. He encourages listeners to stay informed and engaged in the political process to safeguard the principles of democracy.

---

Conclusion

This episode of The David Pakman Show serves as a crucial examination of the subtle yet significant shifts towards authoritarianism within the U.S. government. Through detailed analysis and expert discussion, Pakman highlights the importance of recognizing early warning signs and taking proactive measures to preserve democratic institutions. The insights shared by Jonathan Allen provide a nuanced understanding of the 2024 election dynamics, further enriching the conversation on maintaining democratic integrity in challenging times.

---

Note: Advertisements and promotional segments were omitted from this summary to focus solely on the substantive content of the episode.

Transcript

[David Pakman]

Welcome, everybody. I want to start today using a word. We have the best words here that many people are understandably afraid to use. That word is dictatorship. Because, of course, we look around, we have elections, we have courts that some people follow when they make a legal court order. But what we are seeing right now at the federal government is not just dysfunction, it is a devolution. Devolution. Devolution into dictatorship. Becoming a dictatorship. And becoming is a key word. Now, I want to make it very clear that this is not some, like, over the top hyperbolic nonsense. I'm not saying we live under Hitler. I'm not saying we have a 20th century style literal dictatorship under Donald Trump. But what we do have are the first signs of the structural decay where courts get ignored, the law is bent around one man and a large orange man, civil society gets demonized, power centralizes. In the executive, opposition is framed as illegitimate. Media critical of leadership is seen as disloyal and treasonous. And you don't have to live under literal dictatorship to see that these are the early stages of how dictatorship forms. Plato warned about this. First the people get angry and they get desperate. Then a strong man comes in, loud and angry and vengeful and sometimes charismatic. Who says? He basically always, he is the only one who can fix it. And soon. The institutions don't work unless he allows them to. The institutions don't work unless. Unless they allow him to do whatever he wants to do. So it's really important to understand that authoritarians don't always storm the palace on horseback. Sometimes they tweet or once Twitter becomes X, they excrete on X. Sometimes they host rallies. Sometimes they just ignore court rulings and dare anyone to stop them. And nobody does. And look at what happened. This week alone, the Trump administration is defying a 9. 0 Supreme Court ruling ordering them to return a wrongly deported man from El Salvador back to the United States. Their responses? We're not doing it. We'll look at video of that, of Trump alongside the Salvadorian president a little bit later. That was a wrongful deportation. The administration admitted it was a mistake. A unanimous Supreme Court said fix it. And at least for now, they're refusing. That's dictatorship behavior. It's not a full dictatorship. It's not Hitler. Okay? But this is how it starts. And this is why the word becoming is so important. When the executive stops following rulings from the judiciary and nobody stops them, that is part of a move towards dictatorship, and it's part of a bigger pattern. Trump threatening again to deport US Citizens defying the court rulings, as I talked about, calling civil rights lawyers terrorists, attacking the press, attacking universities, attacking law firms. This is authoritarianism, the likes of which we have seen previously in history open the door to start on the road towards dictatorship. And just because it's happening through press releases and legal memos and executive orders doesn't make it any less real. That's how it always starts, by making it sound boring and normal so that a lot of people don't pay attention until we're already 15 steps deep into it. And of course, underneath all of this is the economic pain, Trump's tariffs, early signs of disruptions to Social Security, Medicaid cuts that are in the works, Trump underwater in every poll, on nearly every issue. This is why the word becoming matters so much. We're not North Korea, but we're also not where we were 10 years ago, before Donald Trump, as he likes to say, came down the escalator and said, a lot of Mexicans are rapists. The guardrails are coming off one by one. And if we don't call it what it is while there is still time to do so, we potentially lose the ability to, to stop it. And so there's a bunch of factors here that are important to consider. Number one is the slow motion nature of the transformation of a democracy into something else. We've been a flawed democracy for some time. We are now devolving into whatever comes after that. We also have to consider and kind of go beyond this, that we do have an environment right now, and it's not about blaming any one person or any one system or any one platform, but we have an environment where there is nothing that is too far for the sycophants and the loyalists to defend. And so I know that there are some out there who are saying, yeah, you know, I am sort of concerned by some of the things that I'm seeing. But if it were really that bad, if it were really that dangerous, if this really suggested that we were on the precipice of something like what you're talking, talking about, David, everybody would be up in arms. But of course we know that that's not the case because we have an environment right now where at minimum, I mean, Trump talks about, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue right at that's like a benign example. If Trump shot someone on Fifth Avenue, you would have the right wing media ecosystem come in and talk about how it was only self defense and why are sissy liberals against people protecting themselves. You'd have the Algorithms of the social media networks feeding people the right wing coded content that would make Trump shooting someone on Fifth Avenue look like the big, strong alpha thing to do. And someone was coming after our kids and Trump. So that's like a benign example. I'm talking way worse. What if Trump Talked about deporting U.S. citizens? Oh, he's doing that. And what's the reaction? A combination of he doesn't mean it and maybe we should do that and we need to be tougher. And what, you want criminals to just do whatever they want? There is essentially nothing. Maybe we can come up with an example that would be a bridge too far. But there is essentially nothing I can think of where we would have a united opposition to what Donald Trump does. He will have the algorithms, he will have the right wing media defenders. He will have people like Stephen Miller screaming on Fox News that they're right in everything they do. We'll have an example of that, by the way, later on in today's show. So for those who are sort of sitting back and saying, I'll know when it's really serious, because everyone will be telling me that. Every news channel will be telling me that, every neighbor will be telling me that. Every social media platform will be telling me that. I think that that's not something I would hold my breath for. And so we need to figure it out ourselves instead of saying, I don't know, not everybody's freaking out right now. What we should be saying is how have dictatorships developed in the past? How has authoritarianism crept in in the past? It wasn't someone shows up and on day one does all the dictator stuff by decree. It's been slow and boring in many cases. Ignoring a court order here, attacking the free press here and making it slightly less free, punishing journalists willing to not toe the party line. And then it builds and it builds and it builds. Illegal deportations of people not from here. Illegal deportations maybe of people from here, which is sort of like the next shoe to drop that we're all now waiting for. So my message would be, let's not, number one, fall into the hyperbole. Trump is not Hitler. But let's also not get all scared and say, oh, no, you can't talk about a dictatorship. We should remember what Plato said. We should look at how these things have happened in history and we should recognize that we aren't there, but we're seeing warning signs. And if you don't do anything when you see the warning sign, sort of like the canary in the coal mine. Then before you know it, it's too late. That's my message. I want to hear from you. I want to thank everybody who has reviewed my book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Goodreads. We're approaching a thousand reviews, which very most books don't even get 50 reviews on these platforms. Okay? The fact that nearly a thousand of you have already done it is absolutely flattering. And remember, speaking of shutting down and clamping down, the only way I'll be able to get a hold of you and you me if we are clamped down pinched off on any platform is if you're on my newsletter mailing list where we own the data and regularly download it and own it and hold it like a teddy bear. Speaking of which, I'm wearing the sweater I know. Get on my newsletter@david pakman.substack.com. you can sign up for it on my website and you can also just email me info@david pakman.com and say sir, please, with tears in my eyes, get me on that newsletter Having the right Estate Planning done a Will, maybe a Trust is super important. I recently took care of it myself. It's not the most fun thing to do, but it is very important. And our sponsor Trust and Will makes it really easy. And you can get 10% off at trust and will.com/pacman it's a straightforward process. They walk you through it. All of the documents are state specific. They are legally valid. They are customized to your needs, your care, wishes or nomination, guardians, final arrangements, power of attorney. You're just making sure your family and loved ones avoid a lengthy and expensive proceeding or or that the state ends up deciding what happens to your assets. Trust and Will's simple step by step processes guide you from start to finish, one question at a time. Save your loved ones time and stress by having your documents in one place with bank level encryption with live customer support available through phone, chat and email. Trust and Will is trusted by hundreds of thousands of families and counting. Protect what matters most in just minutes at trust and will.com/pacman and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's trust a nd will.com/pacman for 10% off. The link is in the podcast Notes Another day, another Tesla story. What is going on with this company? Well, if you go to Ground News slash Pacman, you will see how some outlets are covering Tesla and Elon Musk compared to others. The story really is one story, but the way it's told really can change your perspective and this is the exact problem that our partners at Ground News help to solve. Ground News is the only site that shows you how political bias and financial incentives and even blind spots shape the narratives in the news that you read. Otherwise, you're letting billionaires and political agendas shape everything from public opinion to policy. See every side of the news story, read the news from multiple perspectives and see through the media bias with reliable news from local and international sources. Go to Ground News, slash Pacman to get the same top tier vantage plan that I use at nearly half the cost, just five bucks a month. The link is in the description. The David Pakman show is of course an audience supported program. Our primary funding source, I'm proud to say, is folks like you. It's not a corporate overlord. It's not some political organization that donates to the show. It's just folks like you who, who like the show enough to say, I think this is worth supporting to the tune of a few bucks a month. So head on over to join pacman.com you can read about all the member benefits. You can sign up so quickly your head will be spinning at how easy and quick it is. In a chilling moment, Donald Trump suggests again that he wants to deport American citizens to El Salvador, telling Salvadorian President Nayib Bukele during a White House visit yesterday that home groans are next and you've got to build more prisons in El Salvador. He then doubled down on this during a new interview this morning. This is what we're talking about when we say creeping authoritarianism, creeping dictatorship. This is not a drill. This is now. Take a listen to this.

[Donald Trump]

Demanded. The people wanting to change their difference and they want you in love with you. I want criminals next. Yeah, I said.

[David Pakman]

And what Trump said is, I want to do it with the homegrown criminals. Next.

[Donald Trump]

Homegrown next. The home runs. You got to build about five more places. Yeah, that's fair. All right. It's not big enough.

[David Pakman]

You've got to build about five more places because it is not big enough. Then Donald Trump this morning saying the following about exactly this. Could we use it for violent criminals.

[Donald Trump]

Our own violent criminals, I call them homegrown criminals. The homegrowns, the ones that grew up and something went wrong and they hit people over the head with a baseball bat. We have. And push people into subways just before the train gets there, like you see happening sometimes. We are looking into it and we want to do it. I would love to do that, Trump.

[David Pakman]

Says, of course, if we can. There are numerous legal problems with that, as I have told you about many, many, many times. And of course, if nobody forces you to abide by the law, does the law really matter if a tree falls in the woods? And you know the thing, okay. The law exists to the extent that anyone can be compelled to follow it. The Trump administration has already suspended habeas corpus for the Maryland dad sent to El Salvador, violated the rights of guarantee, guaranteed. I feel silly saying it. I guess they're not guaranteed, supposedly guaranteed to him by the judiciary and the Constitution. And now Trump is indicating that he intends to do the exact same thing for citizens. No check on executive power, no due process, nothing. And it violates multiple amendments to the Constitution. We've talked about illegal problems before, Trump continuing during this Oval Office thing that they did, talking about pay for those facilities to be opened, if new ones.

[Donald Trump]

Were going to be built, I do something. We'd help them out. Yeah, we have. They're great facilities, very strong facilities. And they don't play games. I'd like to go a step further. I mean, I say, I said it to Pam. I don't know what the laws are. We always have to obey the laws, but we, we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways.

[David Pakman]

We know, by the way, that he doesn't know what the laws are. He didn't have to clarify that that.

[Donald Trump]

Hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat when they're not looking. That are absolute monsters. I'd like to include them in the group of people to get them out of the country, but you'll have to be looking at the laws on that, Steve.

[David Pakman]

Okay, yes, the law will be an impediment here, assuming that Donald Trump follows it or that he can be compelled to follow it. Now, CNN's Kaitlan Collins, during this abortive Oval Office event, asked the president of El Salvador Bukele to weigh in on this and to weigh in specifically about will they return the wrongly deported Maryland father. And Bukele says, I can't snuggle a smug. Snuggle, smuggle. I can't smuggle anyone into the United States. Of course not. Can President Bukele weigh in on this? Do you plan to return him?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I guess I'm supposed to suggest that I smuggle terrorists into the United States.

[David Pakman]

Now, of course, there's no evidence he's a terrorist, but. Okay, let's ignore that for a moment.

[Donald Trump]

How can I smuggle. How can I return him to the United States like I smuggle into the United States or Whether I do, of course I'm not going to do it. It's like, I mean, the question is preposterous. How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don't have the power to return him to the United States.

[David Pakman]

But you can release him inside El Salvador.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, but I'm not releasing, I mean, we're not very fond of releasing terrorists into our country. We just turned the murder capital of the world into the safest country of the western hemisphere. And you want us to go back into the releasing criminal so we can go back to being the murdered capital of the world and that's, that's not going to happen. Well, they'd love to have a criminal, you know, I mean, I mean, there's, there's a fascination. They would love it. Yeah.

[David Pakman]

So what we are led to believe is that two presidents, the President of the United States and the President of El Salvador, they just don't have the power. Nobody can get one wrongly deported guy back to the United States. The guy whose administration deported him can't do it. And the guy whose country now has him can't do it. They're all powerless. Who knew that these presidents so totally lacked all power to do anything? Ok. Meanwhile, Trump now appears to have fully turned on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, continuing the antagonism of Ukraine, implicitly propping up Russia. What a surprise.

[Stephen Miller]

Is offered a purchase more Patriot missile.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, I don't know. He's always looking to purchase missiles. You know, he's, he's against, Listen, when you start a war, you got to know that you can win the war. You don't start a war against somebody that's 20 times your size and then hope that people give you some missiles.

[David Pakman]

Shameful. Indistinguishable from Russian state television which says, oh, the Kremlin didn't start the war, it was Ukraine that did. Now there's two possibilities. Both are disturbing. Trump knows Ukraine didn't start the war, but he says it anyway. Or Trump genuinely doesn't realize that Ukraine didn't start the war. Both are really bad. And then finally, sort of the cherry on top. The President of El Salvador, naive Bukele says, we are going to help you. If you, if you liberate 350 million people, you've got to imprison some of them.

[Donald Trump]

In fact, Mr. President, you have 350 million people to liberate. But to liberate 350 million people, you have to imprison some. You know, that's the way it works, right? You cannot just, you know, free the criminals and, and think crime is going to go down magically. You have to imprison them so you can liberate 350 million Americans that are asking for the end of crime and the end of terrorism. And it can be done. I mean, you're doing it already. And I'm sure that people have seen the change in the streets a long way to go because you're just initiating your second term. But it's clear that with the numbers at the border, even in Democrat run series, they get a help from, from, from the work you're doing.

[David Pakman]

You know, one thing that I, this is disturbing stuff. One thing I do find funny is that when we on the left say, hey, let's look at Denmark, Sweden, let's look at different countries and say, can we do health care the way they do it or what can we do? They go, oh, no, no, no. The US Just has too many people to handle things that way. Meanwhile, El Salvador has a smaller population than Massachusetts. And these right wingers seem convinced that everything El Salvador does we can do in the exact same way. What happened to were just too big of a country to do the same thing? Okay, so vile and disgusting stuff, but nothing compared to what happened when Stephen Miller went on Fox News. You know, you've really lost the plot when Fox News starts trying to calm you down. And that's what happened live on air when Trump adviser Stephen Miller, who always sounds like he's one bad headline away from eating drywall, he absolutely melted down on Bill Hemmer over a man that the administration wrongfully deported and now refuses to bring back. Now, this was not bluster. Miller went full tilt here, screaming over Bill Hemmer, refusing to let him finish a single question and insisting loudly that the deportation was no mistake, even though the Trump administration has already admitted it was. They're still not going to bring him back. But they've admitted, oh, no, it actually was a mistake. Let's check out the clip and then discuss your argument is that you don't have to bring him back home, but will you.

[Stephen Miller]

So I want to correct. I hate to do it, Bill, but I got to correct you on every single thing that you said because it was all wrong. First, we won the Supreme Court case, clearly 90 a district court judge said unconscionably that the president and his administration have to go into El Salvador and extradite one of their citizens, an El Salvadorian citizen. So that would be kidnapping, that we have to kidnap an El Salvadorian citizen against the will of his government and fly him back to America, which would be an unimaginable act, an invasion of El Salvador's sovereignty. So he appealed to the Supreme Court and it said clearly no district court can compel the President to exercise his Article two foreign powers in any way whatsoever. DOJ called me after that Supreme Court ruling and they said, this is amazing. We won this case. 9 0. We are in excellent standing here. So this has been portrayed wrong for 72 hours in the media. They said the most a court could ever compel you to do would be to facilitate return, which would basically mean if El Salvador voluntarily sends him back, we wouldn't block him at the airport, we would put him back into ICE detention and then he would be deported either back to El Salvador, Salvador or somewhere else. The Supreme Court said that is the most the government can be expected to do. So we won the case handily. The misreporting on this has been atrocious. I appreciate.

[David Pakman]

He was not.

[Stephen Miller]

No support. He was not mistakenly sent to El Salvador.

[Donald Trump]

So do you still.

[Stephen Miller]

He's an illegal alien from El Salvador. Hold on, this is important. In 2019, he was ordered deported. He is a final removal order from the United States. He's. These are things that no one disputes. Where is he from El Salvador? Where is he a resident and citizen of El Salvador? Is he here illegally? Yes. Does he have a deportation order? Yes. A DOJ lawyer who has since been relieved of duty, a saboteur, a Democrat, put into a filing incorrectly that this was a mistaken removal. It was not. This was the right person sent to the right place. Now, some have said, well, but he had a thing called a withholding order. So a withholding order means you've been ordered deported, but an immigration judge is saying you cannot go back to a particular country. Here's the thing. If you are a member of a foreign terrorist organization, you cannot have a withholding order. Since he's in Ms. 13, there is no withholding order. The gang that he is accused of being persecuted by, it doesn't exist anymore in el Salvador. The 18th street gang is gone. So you have an illegal alien from else Bill. Where are we supposed to send the illegal alien from El Salvador to ask you a question.

[David Pakman]

Are you convinced he is still a member of Ms. 13?

[Donald Trump]

That was your original charge?

[Stephen Miller]

Yes, but here's the thing though. Yes, but not only am I convinced of it, not only is El Salvador.

[David Pakman]

Convinced, they have presented. So listen, the details really don't matter. They have not presented any evidence that this guy's a member of Ms. 13. But that's really not what's at issue. What's at issue is whether individuals are being provided due process. This is not how the law works. The way Stephen Miller is presenting it is not how the law works. The man in question, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, had legal work status in the United States, was wrongfully deported to El Salvador because of what ICE called an administrative error. A federal judge ruled the deportation was illegal. The Supreme Court unanimously agreed. Even the conservatives on the court. Here's where it goes. Full authoritarian. Instead of obeying the ruling, Miller said that returning Garcia from the Salvadoran megaprison would be kidnapping. Following a Supreme Court order is now kidnapping. This is how fascists talk. The rule of law is only real when it goes their way. And even Bill Hemmer, a guy whose job is basically to nod along when Republicans talk, even Bill Hemmer, was being shouted down by Stephen Miller. You haven't even allowed me to ask a question, he said, because it's not about answers. It's about power. It's about punishing people. That's the whole point. Textbook authoritarianism. Court makes a state makes an error. Court corrects it. The regime says no. And the very same logic underpins every dictatorship. The long matters. When it serves the state, when it serves the leader. Might he be an orange leader or a different color? Otherwise, it's ignored. And Miller even claimed it would be an invasion of El Salvador's sovereignty to bring Garcia back. Except President Naive Bukele of El Salvador is now helping Trump to violate that court order. So what you're watching is what we talked about in the top segment on the show. It's the slow erosion of checks and balances in real time. If the White House can deport someone unlawfully and then ignore the order to undo it, even after the Supreme Court tells them to. What's left of the system? What. What functional piece of the system is left? And just for fun, this was Stephen Miller's second on live TV meltdown of the week. He also lost it over Trump's tariffs, which Miller claimed would make America the manufacturing center of the world. Sort of like when you set your house on fire to save on heating bills. That's his argument. The shouting, the gaslighting, the refusal to follow the law. None of this stuff is accidental. It's part of a movement that doesn't want democracy if it means disobedience. What they really want is loyalty and obedience without questioning them. And if no one is around to stop them. If no one is around to enforce that they must follow the law. They're going to get away with it. And that's exactly what we're seeing. People in my audience know I am a bit of a pastry connoisseur. Our sponsor Wild Grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries and pastas. Wild Grains boxes are customizable depending on what you like and prefer. They've got their classic variety box, they've launched the new gluten free box. They have a plant based box that's 100% vegan and it just takes the hassle out of baking because all items bake from frozen in 25 minutes or less. Nothing to clean up. My experience has been awesome. I love the croissants. I was having people over last week, half an hour before preheat and throw them in the oven and people love it. Definitely the croissants are my favorite. The quality and the freshness of the items is extraordinary and and it is just so convenient. Go to wildgrain.com/pacman to start your subscription and get $30 off your first box. Plus free croissants in every box every month. That's wildgrain.com/pacman the link is in the podcast Notes Many people in the audience know I speak multiple languages. I first learned Spanish when I was born in Argentina. Then I learned English. I learned some Hebrew in Hebrew school. I learned French in junior and high school. I am no stranger to the language learning process and one of the most useful tools I've ever used is the app called Babbel. The way our sponsor Babble teaches you languages truly works. And it works fast. Instead of a bunch of silly quizzes and games like a lot of the other apps, Babble is designed by real people for real conversations. All of Babble's tips and tools for learning a new language are approachable. They're rooted in real life situations and conversations. Babble's bite sized 10 minute lessons are just perfect for me. I can do it on the go, do it during a lunch break. It really sticks fast. Babble was able to help me feel ready for my recent trip to France. I'm using Babble to brush up on Italian and German just for fun. Studies from Yale, Michigan State University and others prove Babel is better. One study found that using Babel for 15 hours is like a full semester of language at college. Here's a special limited time deal for my audience right now. Get up to 60% off your babel subscription, but only for my audience at babel.com/pacman rules and restrictions may apply. Get up to 60% off at babel.com/pacMan spelled b a b b e l.com/pacman rules and restrictions may apply. The link is in the podcast Notes. It's great to welcome to the program today. Jonathan Allen, three time New York Times bestselling author, senior political reporter for NBC News. His new book, written with Amy Parnes, is called Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House. It's so great to have you on. The book is, of course, fascinating. I want to pick somewhere to start. We could kind of start anywhere. And I want to start somewhere that's been of interest to me to see sort of what insights you might have. A year ago, 13 months ago, I went to the White House on the day of Joe Biden's State of the Union address, met with Kamala Harris in a small group. At the time, she was, of course, not the the Democratic nominee for president. I was impressed with her. I found her able to talk about disparate issues. She was engaging. She was a very different Kamala Harris than what I had seen portrayed in interviews up until that point. That Kamala Harris, I believe, was there the first 12 to 15 days of her nomineeship. And I from the outside perceived that something happened after that point. They stopped doing the these guys are weird stuff. The same speech seemingly was being given every day, multiple times a day. It felt as though the air was just kind of let out of her campaign. I know we're starting kind of in the middle here. Is there something that was happening behind the scenes that explains why it seemed so different from the outside all of a sudden at that point?

[Jonathan Allen]

So look throughout this book, we've got sort of storytelling, I think, new revelations. And one of them is the degree to which President Biden really handcuffed Vice President Harris and really sort of from the beginning. But there were points along the way where you could see that, you know, sort of really take hold. And it wasn't just him, it was the campaign leadership that didn't change. She gets in there, she's got 107 days. She decides to leave the campaign leadership. Jenna Malley Dillon, the campaign manager in place, Jenna Mali Dillon has her lieutenants. They were running a race for Joe Biden that was on track to lose, that was not, not focused on change. Most of the American public thought the country was on the wrong track. So and when I say most of I don't mean 51 or 55%. I'm talking about like 2/3 to 3/4 of the country thought we were on the wrong track. So there were obviously a lot of Democrats who were going to vote for Biden but were dissatisfied or people who, you know, are sort of outside the political process that were dissatisfied but might have been available as Democratic voters. And what you see from Biden throughout this book is him sort of leaning over Kamala Harris's shoulder and telling her there should be no daylight between the two of them. He was very concerned about his legacy, very concerned about not being undercut by her, very confident that what, you know, the track that he was on had been the winning one. To this day, he tells people he would have won, which I think is absolutely absurd, especially after what we saw in the debate stage. So I think, you know, the White House staff told the campaign staff that it was okay to have some distance between the two of them for her to, you know, bring a sort of change message and to be a different candidate than Biden. But Biden himself was telling Harris, don't throw me under the bus. Like I said, the words he used to her were no daylight, kid. And I think she felt. I think she felt hamstrung, you know, not just by him saying that. I think through her own sort of feelings of loyalty, which I think, you know, can be a very good character. Character trait, but can also be a devastating one. So I think, you know, what you observed, I think is true. A candidate that was much more contained and packaged than you sometimes see from Kamala Harris. If you. If you meet with her in private.

[David Pakman]

There I was very upfront with my audience. I wasn't cagey at any point. And I just told my audience throughout 2024, at every point in time, who do I think is the most likely person to defeat Donald Trump. And for a while, even though I was again being upfront with my audience that this is not the same Joe Biden of four years ago, it's certainly not the same Joe Biden that ran circles around Paul ryan in that 2012 debate. Debate. I was making the calculation in, I don't know, April of 2024 that at that point, the damage from him getting out would have been worse than going in with somebody who is not at their A level. For me, it very clearly changed with the June 27 debate. Can you talk a little bit about the behind the scenes? Because you go into the book in so many different ways, the concerns behind the scenes and the efforts to hide the reality of what was going on. But in terms of my pragmatic, who do I think is most likely to beat Trump? Did people behind the scenes up until the June 27 debate also think that it was the best shot up until that point, or did something happen earlier to change that view?

[Jonathan Allen]

So it's a great question, and I think it depends on who you are behind the scenes. I think the closer you are in proximity to Joe Biden, the more you believe. And we're willing to make the case that only Joe Biden can win. So if you're talking about Mike Donald and Steve Richetti, the top White House advisors, if you're talking about First Lady Jill Biden, and of course, Joe Biden himself, we see this deterioration, but it's not linear. It's not like Joe Biden's here one day and gone the next, right? So President Biden wanted to be President of the United States for his entire adult life. He finally gets to that place, he beat Donald Trump, you know, felt the love from Democrats about having done that. And, you know, from his perspective, it's understandable that he was the best candidate to run. But what you see behind the scenes is just these different points where he is deteriorating. And, you know, one example that we have in the book is Eric Swalwell, the Congressman from California who had run against Biden in 2020. They'd fought on a debate stage, goes to the White House in the summer of 2023 for a congressional picnic. And Biden doesn't recognize him. And Swalwell has to kind of cue the president. You know, we tell a story about Kevin McCarthy, the speaker of the House, Republican speaker of the House until he was. What's the best term for it? Like, jacked by the rest of the Republicans. But he's at the White House, you know, for an event with Jackie Walorski's family. Former congresswoman, late Congresswoman Biden had done a shout out to her at an event like, a month after she died. And as a makeup, he invited her family to the White House and they go on this sort of meandering tour. And Jill Biden says to her husband, you know, don't, don't go outside. Don't take him outside. It's at night. He walks them outside, takes them to a pool house and into the pool house at the White House, and it's like a couple locker rooms, and he's showing it off as though, you know, it was like a Gilbert Stewart painting of George Washington or something. And McCarthy's thinking, like, I Gotta act like a staffer and sort of, you know, move him into a better place. And, you know, there. There are just all kinds of things that his staff, that Biden's staff does to start trying to accommodate him, whether it's physical needs in terms of, like, new shoes or getting onto the. Onto Air Force One, using a smaller set of stairs, you know, down to using neon tape to show him where to go when he's going to fundraiser. So there's just a lot of signs of deterioration, and it's hard to know with some of the people very closest to him, you know, what. What exactly would have triggered them, you know, making a call to say, like, this can't go on, because ultimately the president's got the power, and the minute you're a close adviser and you tell him to get out, you get thrown out of the room.

[David Pakman]

Was it the June 27 debate that ultimately was dispositive and kind of orienting the train towards getting out?

[Jonathan Allen]

Not for him and not for those people closest to him? I think it was a dispositive event for Nancy Pelosi. I think it was dispositive for Barack Obama. It was dispositive for many donors. We talked to donors who, you know, were getting pressure from the White House to set up new fundraisers after that, and they were like, we can't fill a room. And then the super PAC donors to a group called Future Forward just choked off all of their cash for the super pac. I mean, it was just a really a sort of. I'm trying to think of the right term for it, but you just had this incredible coming together of Democratic influence, folks who tried to push him out, but again, the President of the United States has all the power to stay in or get out. And Biden didn't want to. He came in, you know, a couple of weeks after that, went to Congress and said, hey, I'm not going anywhere. And then, if you'll remember, Nancy Pelosi went on TV and said, he has a decision to make.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Allen]

And it was like, he's already decided. Right. But, you know, so I think the other thing that's important to remember is that there were people who understood he was on track to lose. You know, I think Pelosi was one of them. I think Obama was one of them who, you know, saw that debate, and I think they were stunned by it, as everyone was. I don't think anyone thought that he would show up quite that way. But for some, it was more of an opportunity to do something that they thought probably needed to be done before. And for most of the Democratic universe, it was, you know, an oh my God moment. Like they had no idea because they've been told by the White House over and over and over again that Biden was fine. You know, they dismissed Republican criticism as Republican criticism because it was coming from the other side. They say, well, if the Republicans say Joe Biden's not, you know, not fit to run or not fit to serve, then it must not be true. And you talk in your book, I think about polarization a lot. And that sort of knee jerk desire to see whatever the other side is saying as totally untrue can be damaging to your own side.

[David Pakman]

Can you talk about the Obama factor a little bit? Because you mentioned a few minutes ago about the moment at which former president Obama realized that this wasn't a good idea to press forward. At the same time there was, I can't really call it reporting, but there were assertions made by some that Obama, slash, the Obamas weren't particularly thrilled with Kamala Harris either. Is there anything you can say that suggests that that's true or maybe give us an overview of the Obama's role in all this?

[Jonathan Allen]

Sure. I mean, you know, according to the sources we've spoken to the Obama's, let me just speak to Barack Obama, because much more reporting on him than Michelle Obama and it's too easy to group people together. But you know, for Barack Obama, according to the sources we spoke to, he never thought Kamala Harris was the right answer. He did not think that she would be successful. He thought Joe Biden needed to get out. And he thought that there should be some sort of mini primary, some quick primary, you know, ending in a, an open convention and the winner of that would be best off to win. And it's a sort of like West Wing fantasy that that would happen. It requires a certain ignorance of, or willful ignorance of what the rules are for nominating a candidate. Joe Biden had 90% of the delegates roughly after the primary, and all of them were pledged to him. These are Biden people. They ran as Biden delegates and Biden Harris delegates. And the idea that they were going to abandon whoever he, he endorsed. And there was, I don't think there was, I don't want to say there was never any question, but like, logically he was going to endorse Kamala Harris because it's a, it's a support for his belief in her as vice president the first time around. To think all of that's going to get undone in a couple of weeks and that you're going to be able to have a convention and, and not have so much blood on the floors to destroy the party maybe for multiple cycles. Right. Because you skip over the first black woman vice president. You know, the fights that would emerge within the Democratic Party after that, I think are uglier than anything we saw this election. So, but to your question, Obama did not have faith in Harrison. He didn't have faith in Biden. He didn't want Biden to run in 16. Biden stayed out because Obama, you know, put his thumb on the scale for Hillary Clinton. He didn't think Obama should. He didn't think Biden should run in 2020. He didn't think Biden should run again in 2024. And it reduced his influence. All that, reduced his influence with Biden. You know, he was not in a place where he could call Joe Biden and say, hey, Joe, we're close friends. You were my vice president. I'm telling you that it's time to get out. Because Biden thought Obama didn't have good political judgment after having won in 2020, despite Obama's reservations.

[David Pakman]

Can you talk a little bit about what was going on within the Trump campaign as all of this happened? Because Prior to the June 27 debate, Trump had been doing the Biden dementia stuff at rallies. He had been doing it for a while in different kind of shapes and forms. What happened in the period, I guess, between June 27 and when Biden ultimately did step aside? Like, was it glee from within the Trump side? Was it caution as to what might happen? There was that one video of Trump in the golf cart where before Biden announced anything, he said, we knocked him out. He's. He's done now based on that debate. So was that because he was hearing things or what was happening there?

[Jonathan Allen]

So I think the best answer to that is it's a combination. And there is some feeling of vindication because they've been saying this all along. And then everybody sees it. There is a combination. There's some glee from the victory, you know, from Trump or to your point at the golf cart, he's like, knock the guy out. And there's fear that the Democrats are going to replace Biden because now Biden is weakened. And that's what ends up being the sort of campaigns, the Trump campaign's view of it is try to keep Biden in as long as possible. Like, if they get Biden to be the candidate, they are very confident. They've won this election.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Jonathan Allen]

And you thought at one point, Speaker Mike Johnson started talking about Kamala Harris, and he was quickly shut up. And there's this uncommon discipline from Trump during that period where, you know, normally Trump is dominating news cycles. And he's frustrated. We report on this. He's super frustrated that, like, after the debate, all the news is about Biden, even though it's about Biden having a debacle, he's super frustrated. But his campaign kind of prevails on him to just sort of step out for a little bit and let the Democrats fight among themselves, don't get in the way of, you know, an imploding adversary. And I think you see that over and over again with Trump in this campaign is discipline that we have not seen before in his campaigns or in his White House, and certainly not since he became president. Him just holding back, choosing stability over chaos, over and over within the campaign. That doesn't mean he didn't go out and say crazy things, because he did go out and say crazy things.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Allen]

But the campaign itself kept pretty well on message, and Trump himself reined it in. I mean, another good example is how they, you know, completely disowned Project 2025. It's not that Trump doesn't want to do those things. We're watching him do them now, but he understood it as a political liability and just, you know, sort of threw it under the bus and said he didn't want to have anything to do with anybody that had anything to do with Project 2025. And then, of course, his. His director, budget director, who makes tons of policy decisions. Russ Vogt is one of the guys that was tied into Project 2025.

[David Pakman]

Few other things I want to ask you about. You know, in the period between June 27 and when Biden ultimately announced he was stepping aside, I started saying to my audience, I do not believe this is recoverable. I believe we have now kind of gone past the tipping point where Biden is going to have to get out. And the question is when? And the question is what sort of happens in the immediate aftermath. And there were people in my audience who acknowledged that, and there were some people who got very, very angry and said, david, the fact that you're even talking about this is part of the problem. We're going to lose if we start Talking like that, etc. And my point was, I think Biden's going to lose if he stays in. After Biden got out, and I started looking at swing state polling, and there was a period of Time there, late September, October 1st half of October, where in every swing state poll, the key seven swing states, Trump was winning every single one. And I went to my audience and I said, listen, we start with the 2020 map and what it took for Biden to win. And then we just look at all of these key states, and we now have to believe every single one of these polls is wrong. And actually Biden is winning at least four or five of these seven states. And I heard from a very loud portion of my audience who said, david, we don't need negativity right now, etc. My view was, I want to be honest. And number two, hearing that your candidate might lose, and I'm sorry, it's Harris at that point, I think I misspoke and said, biden, at this point, it's Kamala Harris who is down in those seven states. My view was it should motivate us to hear that Trump may win. That in my world, encourages people to say, I don't want that to happen. Maybe I wasn't going to vote, now I'm going to. But there was a contingent that simply didn't want to hear it. Was there anything analogous going on behind the scenes with regard to polling in those sort of six final weeks?

[Jonathan Allen]

I mean, yes, absolutely. Let me go back to that for a second because. And this ties back into the book behind your shoulder there, your bestseller, and congratulations on that. I've been.

[David Pakman]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Allen]

Listening to it on audiobook, and it's, it's fantastic. Look, part of the problem for the Democratic Party was that there was such dishonesty or such a unwillingness of powers within the party. You know, the consultant class, the fundraising class, elements of the media that are aligned with the Democratic Party to level with people about where things stood as far back as before the debate, when Biden was clearly behind. You know, the numbers are small because we are so evenly divided and polarized, but it was, it was pretty static for a long period of time with, with Trump in the lead. And I think that, you know, your honesty with your audience, even though some people don't want to hear it, is important. It's important to be able to say, look, the party's telling you this, but it's not right. You know, for your case, you're trying to motivate voters. I just, I'm a journalist. I like honesty. But I think, you know, what you saw in the campaign, on the Harris campaign is they kind of hit a ceiling. She. She was rising and rising. She recovered what Biden had Lost. She got past the point where Biden was, and they got into, you know, what I would call, like, a virtual tie with Trump. Like, so if you ask her people, I would say, you know, as late as early October, her internal polling showed her winning a majority of the electoral votes. And then around October, I think October 10th was the last internal poll that I saw that had her doing. And we reveal that for the first time in this book. What I think happens at that point, you also get, by the way, on the other side. Fascinating. We report on this with Trump. He's getting super frustrated with his campaign because he has backed off. He has let the fight play out. On the Democratic side, Harris is rising. His polling shows basically a dead even tie at that point. And he brings in Corey Lewandowski, this former campaign manager, who does not have the ability to run a national political campaign, but brings him in, sends him down to Palm beach to, like, look at what's going on with the campaign. And Corey reports back that there's mismanagement of the finances and stuff. And Susie Wiles, the campaign manager, and Chris Lacivita, another senior advisor, go to Trump and they get him on Trump Force One to basically shut Lewandowski down. And that's one of the more dramatic scenes in the book dealing with Trump is him shutting the Lewandowski down and again, choosing calm over chaos. But with the Harris folks, they continued to tell everyone that they were going to win when their polling stopped, showing that. The last. We reveal for the first time in the book, the last assessment they had before Election day had Trump winning. It was narrow, but they had Trump winning. And yet they told everybody else that she was going to win. David Plouffe was out on television saying that. That she was going to win all seven swing states. Yeah, you know, they told her that she was poised to win. She was surprised on election night. Shocked, crestfallen, heartbroken, like you can see in this book. I think through her eyes what so many Democrats were feeling, which is that they'd basically been gaslight, gaslit by their leadership. And I think that's important for Democrats going forward and maybe in the future for Republicans when they're going through similar things. It's important because you've got to be able to assess who's telling you the truth in order to at least know what you have to do to win. And I just think that it's shocking and it's saddening that a candidate is so certain of victory because they've been told things that. That aren't true or they've been led to believe things that aren't true.

[David Pakman]

Last thing I want to ask you about, this doesn't have to be a long thing, necessarily. I realized that Harris was going to lose at about 7:05 Eastern on election night. And what I looked at was we had numbers from Kentucky and Indiana, and I simply compared Trump's margin of victory in those states in 2020 to what it very clearly was with a lot of the vote coming in quickly in 2024. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was like he states he won by six or seven. He was winning by like 20 or something. It was crazy. It was just crazy. And because the margins were so small in the swing states, that alone to me said, this is probably over. When did the campaigns start to realize what was going on?

[Jonathan Allen]

I mean, start to realize. I think it's a different, different metric for everybody. But I will tell you this, with all the data they have, they can compare, you know, the suburbs of Indianapolis and their voting trends to, like, what's going on in Georgia. Right. Like, there's such a, an affinity, I guess, between voters in various places that, like, you, you know, they've got these huge models, they plug in numbers. They should be getting this. So, you know, I mean, look, they're looking at numbers in Georgia and North Carolina and they're, and they, they know that if, if the same thing is going on in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin, that this is, you know, that this race is over, but they're not sure until they actually see the votes. And so I think it takes a little bit longer. And, you know, we go through election night in detail in the book. You know, Harris isn't told until late at night, you know, 11:00pm ish, that it's over. And, you know, I was looking at Georgia precincts myself, so you were a little ahead of me in terms of when you, when you made your calculation. But I was looking at Georgia precincts coming in and I was like, I don't see her coming back to win. Given the shifts, right? Like, you should see demographic shifts. You can see geographical, you know, shifts where there's just a few more points for Trump than it was last time, or in your case, you know, some more points. So it takes a while longer because they don't want to tell somebody that they've lost. And then there's some fluky thing like the Midwest isn't behaving like right the Mid Atlantic or the Southeast.

[David Pakman]

The book is Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House is quite a book. We've been speaking with the book's coauthor Jonathan Allen. Really appreciate your time today.

[Jonathan Allen]

Yeah, thank you David, and congratulations on your your bestseller and enjoy the promotion process.

[David Pakman]

Thank you. If you want to change your IP address when watching or downloading large video files, you need a VPN. Most VPNs come with a lot of buffering and waiting when you're dealing with video, but our sponsor, Private Internet Access, will not subject you to that. PIA is the only VPN fully optimized for lightning fast streaming and downloading 4K content without the buffering. Changing your IP address with a VPN lets you do things like watch the UK version of Netflix or the Australian version of Hulu so you can watch lots of great content not normally available in your country. For instance, PIA lets me see a bunch of great Argentinian soccer I can't normally get in the US. They have servers in 91 countries and with just a single account you can use PIA on unlimited devices, computer, tablet, phone, tv, game console. If you sign up for PIA today and you don't love it, you can get a full refund anytime in the first 30 days. So try private Internet access risk free and get 83% off which comes out to just 203amonth plus four extra months for free. Go to PIA vpn.com/david the link is in the podcast Notes. I am very particular about my mattresses and I have learned that you can have the most beautiful view out a hotel window and if the mattress is not right for you, I just don't sleep well. I have been sleeping on a Helix mattress at home for years now and I love it. They have a two minute sleep quiz. You answer questions about your sleep preferences. It tells you this is the mattress for you. I was matched with the midnight mattress model. It has cooling features. I get too hot at night. I'll admit it right here. Fake news media won't tell you but I'm willing to tell you that right here they also have dual comfort mattress topper with Glacier Tex. It has a soft side and firm side for two sleepers who maybe want different things. That is a total game changer. Every Helix Mattress comes with 100 night sleep trial. So do the mattress toppers. You can get your money back if you don't love them. Helix will even get rid of your old mattress if you want. Helix is giving my audience 20% off site wide at helix sleep.com/pacman that's H E L I X sleep.com/pacman. The link is in the podcast notes Congresswoman Alexandria Cassio Cortez not holding back in Nampa, Idaho yesterday, arguably the most right wing state in the country, or close to it, calling Trump a rapist and a criminal. A few people are offended, but I've got to tell you, most people are connecting with this energy. I believe there is something here. This was the latest installment of AOC and Bernie's Fight Oligarchy Tour and very well done. Let's take a listen to this. Donald Trump is a criminal who was found guilty of 34 felony counts of fraud, liable for sexual abuse. Of course he's lying and abusing and manipulating the stock market too. When he talks about rapists and criminals, he should look in the mirror. It's a good line, you know, and like we've been saying, Cory Booker Speaking for 25 hours doesn't get anybody health care. AOC calling Trump a rapist and a criminal doesn't get anybody the food that is increasingly unaffordable. But what we are trying to probe here, and that's what's so interesting about this Fight Oligarchy tour, what we're trying to probe is what is viable as is for the future of the Democratic Party, not what sort of corporate Democrat can we take and squeeze and manipulate and build a studio to be interviewed by Alex Cooper and make into something. No, no, no. What part of the party is ready to go in terms of what the country is looking for? I don't know that it's aoc. Bernie has said he's not running, but this is a process that's going on now. Speaking of Bernie, Bernie Sanders going directly at the authoritarian anti media instincts of Donald Trump. And right now he's going after the media. I don't know if any of you saw it. He is now wanting to take away CBS's license because they did a story that criticized him. Oh, my word.

[Jonathan Allen]

CBS criticized him. Oh, let's drive them out of business.

[David Pakman]

How terrible is that? He has sued abc. He has sued Meta, he has sued the Des Moines Register. This guy cannot take criticism. He can dish it out, all right, but he can't take it. And I say to Mr. Trump, if you can't take criticism, get out of the political process. This is a democracy. One of the things that is very common in authoritarianism is that you are both extremely weak and you are extremely strong. And let me tell you what I mean by that. On the one hand, Donald Trump frames himself as the ultimate alpha. He's strong not like these sissy Democrats, not like these sissy Europeans. Not right. They are the strongest. And yet they are so threatened by an adversarial media report that the initial instinct is not to dispute the substance. It is to say, can I get you taken off the air? They are so threatened by a college student who has a view counter to that of Donald Trump's that they can't simply refute it on substance. They have to round people up, deny them due process, guarantee, supposedly guaranteed. The word guaranteed has no meaning anymore. Supposedly guaranteed to them by the Constitution and deport them, or revoke a green card or revoke a student visa or whatever the case may be. Those are signs of extraordinary weakness, not of strength. And that's a really common thing in authoritarianism. They came to Trump with tears in their eyes and they said, sir, how are you so healthy? Sir, you are such a physical specimen. I'm not kidding. I'm going to play a clip here. In the aftermath of Donald Trump's clearly unbelievable health report, annual physical report, in which he supposedly is 6 foot 3 inches tall and has lost 15 pounds and now weighs only 224 and is just so healthy, they came to him and they said, tell us, sir, how are you so healthy? Here's what he had to say.

[Donald Trump]

You got the perfect health report.

[Jonathan Allen]

All of our. Everybody in the press wants to know this.

[Donald Trump]

How do you do it, Mr. President? I haven't set up at 2:00am in the morning since I was 25.

[David Pakman]

And now we're 2:16 in the morning.

[Donald Trump]

Having a press conference.

[David Pakman]

How do you do it?

[Donald Trump]

We had a couple of them at 2:00 in the morning. Now, Biden, I guess you're wearing the press out. Biden was sleeping for 10 hours already. Now, I have a lot of respect for the press. Really I do. Some of it's fake news, but a lot of it's good, like you.

[David Pakman]

And I have a lot of respect, respect for the fake news media, which I'm trying to ban.

[Donald Trump]

Really. Some of it's totally fake. And some like 60 Minutes tonight, how do you stay so healthy? How do you stay so energized? Because I enjoy what I'm doing and I like the results. I think. I think we're making America great again. And it makes me feel good, probably keeps me happy. Okay, thank you. That's a nice question.

[David Pakman]

Every time Trump puts a new tariff in, his cholesterol goes down by five points. That sort of question would make North Korean propaganda anchors blush from how ridiculous it is. And then Here is Trump, by the way, addressing the same issue alongside El Salvador's President Naive Bukele yesterday talking about how he aced the brain injury test.

[Donald Trump]

Very low iq, President. And by the way, I took my cognitive exam as part of my physical exam and I got the highest mark and one of the doctors said, sir, I've never seen anybody get that kind of. That was a sir, yes, Mark, I hope you're happy with that.

[David Pakman]

We've never seen anyone so strongly not have a brain injury, although they haven't.

[Donald Trump]

Been bugging me too much to take a cognitive. But I did do my physical and it was released. I hope you're all happy with it. I noticed there's no question, so probably you are. But the cognitive, they said to me, sir, would you like to take a cognitive test? I said, did Biden take one? No. Did anybody take one? No, not too many people took them. I said, what about, what about Obama? Did he take one? No, he didn't take one. Obama let me be the only one to take one. But I, I've actually taken them three times already. I like taking them because they're sort of, you know, too tough for me.

[David Pakman]

To take, but very sir, could you name five objects? You know, we started with the truly, truly dystopian authoritarianism that is being ushered in and we end with just flat out stupidity. We are going to discuss Bill Maher's White House visit. On the bonus show we will talk about Social Security listing thousands of migrants as dead. You're dead to me. In order to get them to self deport. And the Trump administration is also freezing Harvard money. I will tell you why. Please remember that the number one way to support this program is to get a membership at. Join pacman.com if you've not yet purchased my book the Echo Machine, I would love for you to do so. And if you have purchased it, remember to leave us a review on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Goodreads. You can see all my recent appearances on other shows talking about the book@david pakman.com press. I will see you on the bonus show I'm on with Josh Zepps tonight. Looking forward to it. And I'll see you back here tomorrow.