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The David Pakman Show
5/29/25: Trump tariffs deemed illegal, David considers leaving the country
01:03:17
-- On the Show: — Federal court rules Trump’s sweeping Liberation Day tariffs illegal, a massive blow to his second-term economic agenda — Trump declares all-out war on progressive values, using over 150 executive orders to dismantle DEI,...
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- [00:08]
David Pakman
Welcome to the show. We start today with a massive legal defeat for the Trump administration. Maybe the key, maybe the only real policy achievement, if you can call it that, although it's been a disaster, the blanket tariffs have been struck down by a federal court. This goes back to Liberation Day. It is an incredibly ironic situation where what's bad for the Trump administration is good for global markets, which are rejoicing at this ruling. So let's talk about it step by step. These are the tariffs that Donald Trump unilaterally slapped on just about every foreign nation. A federal court has ruled these are illegal and these are outside of Donald Trump's authority as president. Now, these two findings against the law, outside of Trump's authority, very common findings with regard to what Donald Trump tries to do and does, regularly doing things that are outside of the law and outside of the authority of a President of the United States. Now, this is a ruling that doesn't just like, poke a couple of holes in Donald Trump's economic policy. This is obliterating arguably the central pillar of Donald Trump's second term agenda. And the kicker is that when you look at the three judge panel that made this ruling, it's a Reagan appointed judge, it's an Obama appointed judge, and it is a judge appointed by Donald Trump himself. So that's how flimsy this was. Now, what happened? Donald Trump used emergency powers to justify skipping Congress, bypassing Congress altogether and imposing what we might call 10 plus percent tariffs. Now, some of them were triple digit tariffs on just about every trading partner. He called it Liberation Day on April 2. The court says this is against the law. The administration said that trade deficits, which by the way have existed for 50 years, suddenly qualified the situation as a national emergency. That national emergency is what, according to Trump, justifies him bypassing Congress and saying tariffs on everybody. Court didn't buy it? Not even close. And quoting from the ruling here, Trump's tariff orders, quote, exceed any authority granted to the President and the IEEPA. That's the 1977 Emergency Powers Law that Trump cited in trying to do this simply doesn't give him the right blow up global trade on a whim. So the specifics of what this decision does, number one, it freezes the Liberation Day tariffs on just about every country. Number two, it freezes the additional tariffs on China, Mexico and Canada. And number three, it freezes Trump's attempt to single handedly set global economic policy. Now, meanwhile, global markets are cheering stock markets immediately, seeing futures rise and stock markets around the world that were Open on a different schedule, immediately accelerate upwards. American business is celebrated because the pause or the blocking of the tariffs, better said, gives them more business certainty with regard to what's to come. And for once, Democrats and some Republicans actually agreed. The blanket tariffs as implemented by Trump are this sort of reckless economic stunt. It has hit a wall. And even Donald Trump's fallback excuse, this, which is, well, Nixon used tariffs in the 70s. That also didn't work because back then, Congress was at least partially involved. Trump tried to do this completely solo, as he always does. Now, the White House is absolutely furious. Uh, Trump's team says that unelected judges shouldn't be deciding this, but that's exactly what courts are for. The whole point of courts is get people who are allegedly outside the political fray are. Although they are still political nominees. So it's sort of complicated to say, well, unelected. Trump's own argument is, it doesn't matter that Elon's unelected. It doesn't matter that the judges I pick are unelected because the people elected me, knowing that I get to bring in special advisers like Ellen or I get to nominate judges. So when it's convenient for Trump, he goes, no, no, no. Everyone I nominate is, in a sense, elected because I was to do what presidents do. In this case, he gets a ruling he doesn't like from a court, and he goes, these are unelected judges. But that's what courts are for, stopping abuses of power. Especially from a guy who thinks that declaring a trade deficit is the same as declaring war. So this case was brought by small businesses crushed by the tariffs. It was backed by a dozen states, and Oregon's attorney general really said it best. Trade decisions can't be made on the President's whim. Now, here's the irony that Trump will never admit that the people in the Trump White House will never admit. When Trump's economic policy is declared illegal, global markets rally. The Dow ticks up the dollar stabilizes, businesses go, oh, what a relief that is. The free market saying Trump's tariffs are a disaster. And that's really the story here. This wasn't really a policy. This was an economic tantrum, global consequences. And it's being dismantled in court. The markets are relieved and the world is breathing a little easier. And once again, Donald Trump tried to govern like a dictator, and he got smacked down by the law and the Constitution and the judiciary. We'll see what the Supreme Court does next. So this is not the final word necessarily, but for now, it's a victory for. For law. It's a victory for global sanity, and it's a victory for every American who is sick of the possibility of paying more because of one man's ego. So we'll see what happens next. But a major, major loss for Donald Trump. All right, we need to talk about what has happened over these last six to eight weeks, probably even including all of Donald Trump's second term. Trump's not just back in office. Donald Trump has declared war on every single thing that progressives care about. And this is not hyperbole, or I've even seen it pronounced hyperbole. Completely incorrect pronunciation. But some people say it. Who am I to tell them, no, this is not hyperbole. This is not fake drama. This is what is happening. Donald Trump has signed over 150 executive orders since January. Every single one is like a hit list of progressive policies and values. DEI programs gone. Environmental protections, increasingly gutted. Immigration reform. I mean, forget about reform. Look at what they're doing with the mass deportations, denying due process, talking about suspending habeas corpus. And here is the scary part. There is not even a pretense anymore around this stuff. Trump's admitting. Stephen Miller is admitting. The people around Trump are admitting. We are fighting what they call radical leftist ideology, and he's using the full force of the federal government to try to do it. Let's start with what Trump calls ending illegal discrimination. What Trump has done with that series of executive orders is kill diversity and inclusion programs across the entire federal government. And every program designed to help people of color, women, LGBT folks, it's gone. Trump calls it protecting civil rights. And that's like saying you're protecting democracy by ending elections. The elections risk jeopardizing democracy. So we will end elections to protect democracy. It's that sort of backwards, upside down. You know, black is white, down is up. Kind of thinking he's ending programs that help marginalized people and saying that's good for civil rights. And even business leaders are freaking out. You know, when you see CEOs complaining your policies are hurting our bottom line, you know you've screwed up if you claim to be the most pro business president in history or whatever. So these are not liberal activists who don't like what Trump is doing. These are people who care about money. And even they are saying the war on diversity is bad for business. We then move to immigration. And this is where it gets truly horrifying. Trump wants to deport 15 to 20 million people. We don't even think there's that many deportable people in the country. You know, the belief is it's probably like 11 million undocumented immigrants in the country, some of whom have temporary status of different kinds. You know, there's this sort of concentric circles. Trump wants to deport twice as many people as even exist in the category. So this is not immigration enforcement. This is a mass deportation on a scale we've never seen unachievable. Unless you start wrapping up documented immigrants and potentially even American citizens, as he seems to want to do right now. Roughly half of the country approves, by the way, of what Trump is doing on immigration. Half the country cheering for this sort of cleansing and as Trump effectively is carrying it out. And then we go to the environmental assault. Trump has signed multiple executive orders pushing nuclear power expansion with safety as an afterthought. And I say this as someone who thinks the left is too antagonistic of nuclear power. There is a right way to use it as a bridge, although I think it's probably a distraction. This is not about nuclear power being uniquely unsafe. It's actually modern. Nuclear is one of the safest forms of power in terms of the death toll per energy created. But the whole environment here is cut. Safety regulations speed up construction, and that's the sort of thinking that gave us Chernobyl and that sort of thing. New nuclear is much safer. I'm not a reflexive anti nuclear guy, but we have to understand the way that Trump is trying to carry it out. But what really gets me isn't Trump merely implementing these policies. It's all under the guise of being against this radical leftist ideology. Caring about diversity, that's radical leftism. Protecting the environment, that's radical leftism. Treating immigrants like humans, that's radical leftism. And Trump has said basic human decency is an enemy ideology that must be destroyed. That's textbook fascism. You demonize your opponent's values, you call them threats, you then use the government's power to try to crush them. So legal experts say Trump's testing the limits of executive power. Sort of an understatement. Okay, Trump's not just changing policies here. He's destroying federal agencies. He's taking agencies that protect people and gutting enforcement, installing industry insiders and saying all of it is to promote freedom. So we are watching the destruction of everything progressives have been trying to build over decades. Institutions protecting workers, minorities, the environment. It's being torn down piece by piece. And the most infuriating part is that Trump says all of this is based on what Real Americans want. As if caring about diversity and pluralism isn't an American value. Wanting clean air, not an American value. The truth is that there's really nothing radical about this stuff. That's just a word they use to try to manufacture consent for what Trump is doing. So what are we going to do? Because Trump is not slowing down. Over 150 executive orders in four, almost five months. Every day brings a new attack on progressive values, another attempt to destroy the social safety net. So we're in an existential fight here for American democracy, and we should not pretend that this is just politics as usual. There's nothing normal about what's going on here. We see the coordinated attack. It's happening right now. The war on the left is here. It's not over the horizon somewhere. The question now becomes, and this is what we've been talking about for some time on the show. Are we going to fight back or are we potentially going to watch decades of progress burn down in the name of making America great again? Vomitus. Okay, that's where we are. In May, Almost June of 2025, a Trump declared war on progressive values. And I have to admit he's winning because a lot of people believe it's politics. One party's in power, they do some stuff. The other party's in power, they do some stuff. And that's sort of it. That's not where we are right now. We are in authoritarianism with a red hat, and we need to keep talking about it every day until we figure out how to stop it. And that's some of what we're going to be talking about later today and also tomorrow. So let's take a quick break. Please remember, if you're not on my sub stack, get on the sub stack. We will be relaunching it soon with a bunch of exclusive and new content. And if the authoritarian clampdown comes against independent media, Substack is the only place we own our data. It's the only way I'll be able to get a hold of you and you me. So make sure you sign up@David Pakman.com or you can email info@David Pakman.com and say, David, get me on that substack and I will gladly oblige. All right, so we all know Alexa listens to us, recommends products based on our conversations. Metta retargets us based on our browsing and engagement history. Have you wondered what chat, GPT and Claude are up to with your conversations? We feed so much of our information to These AI chat bots, thoughts, dreams, sensitive questions, business ideas. They take the information, tie it to your identity and they can sell that to third parties and governments. ChatGPT has the former director of the NSA on their board right now. That doesn't feel awesome. It took us a long time to truly understand what social media companies were doing with our data. We don't have to make the same mistake with AI. And that's why I've started using Venice AI, a generative AI platform that is private and permissionless. They don't spy on you, Venice. I won't censor the AI. They have a safe mode which you can turn off for both text and image generation. Messages are encrypted. Your conversation history is only stored on your browser. I love the pro plan because I get upgraded features like uploading files, unlimited text prompts. Check it out. If you want to use AI without censorship or fear of handing over your most intimate thoughts to a corporation or the government, go to Venice AI/pacman and use code PACMAN to get 20% off their pro plan. The link is in the description. All right, awesome. New sponsor to talk about Wild Alaskan company. They do sustainable seafood memberships. I got one of these boxes and it is just phenomenal. The whole point with Wild Alaskan seafood is that it's 100% wild caught, it's never farmed. It's from sustainably managed fisheries in Alaska, frozen at the peak of freshness and then delivered to you. They've got three curated boxes. The wild salmon box, the wild white fish box and the wild combo box. I got a box that had everything beautifully vacuum sealed. The fish comes in pre portioned fillets. We had crab, we had scallops. I know I should be saying scallops. I just. It's just not for me. I call them scallops. Okay? Delicious and sustainable. They have a sustainable supply driven approach. They get products during the harvest season in a way that doesn't deplete the resources of Alaska's wild fisheries. I encourage you to go to wild alaskan.com/pacman and use the code PACMAN for $35 off your first box. That's wild alaskan.com/PACMAN. Use code PACMAN for $35 off. The link is in the podcast notes. We do an extra show every single day for our members called the bonus show. We will be talking on today's bonus. Jordan Peterson's recent disastrous appearance on Jubilee, debating 20 atheists. Wild wacky stuff and much more. You get the bonus show every Day as a member. You also get commercial free audio and video streams of the show. All of it you can find@join pacman.com Republicans in Congress have introduced a new bill which would strip all federal funding. That's loans, grants, everything from any medical school that acknowledges systemic racism or has a diversity office at all. This is called HR3518 and it's getting very little coverage. And it essentially says if a medical school talks about privilege or racism or health disparities along diversity lines, which is very real by the way, they lose funding. Period. So here is what the bill bans. No DEI offices allowed. No diversity statements in hiring or in admissions. No instruction suggesting that racism exists in American systems. No special programming based on race and ethnicity. And if you do any of that, you're out of every federal student loan and grant program that exists for medical schools. This is not a joke. This is the Republican party trying to legislate ideological conformity into the medical field. Now here's the thing. These so called WOKE practices as they describe them, there's a reason that they're standard in modern medical education. Medical schools teach about racial health disparities because they exist. Now you and I might have different opinions as to are there DEI programs that are well intentioned but go too far or are there example? We can have that conversation. But racial health disparities exist and so why wouldn't we teach incoming doctors about them? Black Americans are more likely to die in childbirth. It doesn't mean that. The reason is interpersonal racism where white doctors say I don't care as much about black people so I'm going to give them worse treatment. It's not that. And in fact, if it were that, it might be an easier issue to solve. It is structural to a degree. Indigenous communities have lower life expectancies. The right loves to say that's just because they're alcoholics. That is such an oversimplification and not sufficient for the way that incoming doctors should be trained. Latino patients can face language barriers disproportionately that affect treatment. These are not political opinions, these are just medical facts. Diversity offices exist to make sure doctors are prepared to treat diverse populations. That's it. And so courses about social determinants of health like race and poverty and environment. This helps doctors provide better care. Sometimes that might include asking future doctors to reflect how has your identity? Or how can identity shape bias or outcomes? It's not indoctrination, it's basic medical ethics. I have been outspoken against the use of extreme identity Politics as a cudgel or as a way to silence people, I'm against it. That's not good. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about important elements of medical education. And this bill, HR3518 from Republicans bans all of it. And it's not subtle. The bill says schools can't teach, that there are systemic issues that can relate to race in the United States. They just, they're not allowed to teach it. If they want to keep any of these grants, it's a direct gag order. And it is to a degree telling future doctors, you can't even learn about care, how care became unequal. It obviously doesn't stop with medical schools. We've talked about it in other contexts already. But this particular bill pressures the agencies that do accreditation of medical schools do, do not recognize degrees from medical schools that have any kind of DEI programming or commitment. So this is not about protecting civil rights. This is about erasing the ability to talk about them. And it doesn't improve education. It polices which ideas schools allowed to teach, all from a party that says that they're about free speech and more speech in more places. So this is a disaster acutely for medical elements of medical. But this is part of a broader effort to purge public institutions of any acknowledgement of inequality. First it was schools, then it was libraries, now it's hospitals, medical schools, et cetera. And tomorrow it's going to be the next thing. What Republicans are doing here is redefining reality by defunding the aspects of reality they don't like. We don't want to acknowledge that there are very disparate medical outcomes along class and racial lines. So instead of fixing the disparities, we'll just pull funding from anybody who teaches about it. And if that sounds extreme and like it doesn't exactly support speech, it's because it's extreme and it doesn't support speech. HR 3518 barely seeing, barely seeing coverage of it. A completely disoriented Donald Trump was visibly confused. And this would be funny if it weren't so terrifying. We would just focus on the double standard with former President Joe Biden if it weren't so horrifying that this is going on in clip after clip that I'm going to play for you. Donald Trump, the current President of the United States. Remember, Biden's out of office. Biden's political career is over. He will never hold political office again. Trump is the president now, and he's Completely lost. It's not just that he's lost on policy. It's not just that he's lost on the facts. He's lost on language comprehension. Here is a reporter asking Donald Trump, when might we see the resumption of interviews for a foreign student visa? Something that the Trump administration has paused. Trump goes on, what? French. Something French. What are you talking about? Take a look at this. When could the administration resume the interviews.
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Trump Supporter
For foreign students visa?
- [24:34]
David Pakman
When do you think your administration could resume this interview?
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Reporter
So on what?
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David Pakman
For the foreign student visa. Yesterday there was. For the French visa for the foreign students.
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Reporter
Oh, for the foreign visas. What are you referring foreign visas for? What are you talking about? For colleges. Okay, so you're off of Israel now you're talking about colleges, right? Yes.
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David Pakman
No.
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Reporter
Okay, well, we're going to see. Look, Harvard has been a disaster.
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David Pakman
Trump seems to have no idea, no idea what is going on. This is not a slip up. This is a guy who is increasingly struggling to process language into his big a brain. He hears foreign student visa, I think from a reporter with a French accent and somehow he lands on the French and then he spirals into confusion about what a visa even is. If President Joe Biden had given an answer like that, Republicans would be filming 25th Amendment ads. Every right wing host would be screaming dementia at full volume. But with Trump, it's, I guess it was Wednesday. Another example here. Trump was asked about taco trade. Taco meaning Trump always chickens out. This is something that's been floating around. Trump gets confused and then he spits out a word salad of no relation to the substance whatsoever. Take a look. Mr. President. Wall street analysts have coined a new.
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Trump Supporter
Term called the taco trade. They're saying Trump always chickens out on your tariff threats and that's why markets are higher this week. What's your response to that?
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Reporter
I kick out. Chicken out. Oh, isn't that chicken out? I've never heard that. You mean because I reduced China from 145% that I set down to 100 and then down to another number and I said, you have to open up your whole country. And because I, I gave the European Union a 50% tax tariff and they called up and they said, please, let's meet right now. Please, let's meet right now.
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David Pakman
And then Trump, always in his old age, going back to the tried and true reactions, Trump has to rap by attacking the reporter. Don't you ever say that again. Nasty. He says, take a look.
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Reporter
But I knew that. But don't ever say what you said that's a nasty question. Go ahead. To me, that's the nastiest question.
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David Pakman
This is not merely confusion, this is hostility as a defense mechanism. He has no answer, so he lashes out. And the instinct is always, attack the media, attack the reporter. Then the topic of Saudi Arabia and Trump's Middle east trip came out. And once again, Trump claiming, with no evidence, he made money and got 5 trillion while he was in the Middle East. And they brought it back, the IQ of a Kleenex. Take a look at this.
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Reporter
This isn't my war. This is Biden's war, Zelinsky's war and Putin's war. This isn't Trump's war. I'm only here for one thing, to see if I can end it. To save 5,000 lives a week and a lot of money. The money being much less important because I made that money. I went to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE and we brought back $5.1 trillion. So I made that money in about two hours, the money we were talking about, but it's still three. Think of it. $300 billion we've spent with no checks, no balances, they just send cash now, as usual.
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David Pakman
He just doesn't understand how this works. He just doesn't understand how it works. This entire thing about I got 5 million. These are soft, general hypothetical potential commitments of investment from these countries. It's funny, when it came to the tariffs, Trump would say, we gave China a trillion dollars and we lost the trillion. As I explained to you, we gave China $1 trillion. China gave us $1 trillion worth of stuff. Trump ignoring that. Then here Trump goes, oh, Saudi Arabia and, and Qatar and uae, they're just giving us money. But what Trump's ignoring is that these would be investments exchanged for goods or services of equivalent value here. He doesn't say that. And as I've explained to you a bunch of times now, these are commitments, hypothetically over a decade, that you need to actually get the projects going for the money to materialize. We got nothing from those Middle Eastern countries during Trump's trip. And then finally, once again, Trump with the two week stuff. Two weeks, it's always two weeks away, no matter what it is. Take a look at this.
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Reporter
On Russia.
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David Pakman
Mr. President, please.
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Trump Supporter
Do you believe the Russians are being disrespectful when they say that your criticisms of Putin are simply an emotional response? And do you, do you still believe that Putin actually wants to end the war?
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Reporter
I can't tell you that, but I'll let you know in about two Weeks. Within two weeks. We're going to find out very soon. We're going to find out whether or not he's tapping us along or not. And if he is, we'll respond a little bit differently. But it will take about a week and a half, two weeks. We have Mr. Witkoff is here, who's doing a phenomenal job, is dealing with them very strongly right now. They. They seem to want to do something, but until the document is signed, I can't tell you, Nobody can. I can say this. I can say this, that I'm very disappointed at what happened a couple of nights now where people were killed in the middle of what you would call a negotiation. I'm very disappointed by that. Very, very disappointed. Yeah, please.
- [30:46]
David Pakman
So listen, that. That's Trump's version of a loading screen. When he has no answer, when he doesn't know, he just says, we're two weeks from that. He can't answer basic questions. He doesn't know what's happening. He lies with no hesitation and he attacks anybody who points it out. And he's the one who's actually in power, supposedly, at this point in time. I don't know what's more terrifying, that Trump is the one in power or that he's not really in power and that it's J.D. vance and Stephen Miller and whoever else actually controlling things behind the scene. I don't know which is true, and I also don't know which is scarier. Caroline Levitt, Trump's press secretary, went full mask off in a Fox News segment where she was asked about workforce issues. We have real issues to solve and many ideas, by the way, for how to solve them with regard to America's workforce. And once it gets a little difficult, once the questions get a little bit substantive for Caroline Levitt, she implodes. Here's what she had to say about electricians and plumbers and LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard, which, by the way, I don't know what that is. I don't know what an LGBTQ major is. Take a look at this.
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Trump Supporter
And the president is more interested in giving that taxpayer money to trade schools and programs in school, state schools, where they are promoting American values, but most importantly, educating the next generation based on skills that we need in our economy and our society. Apprenticeships, electricians, plumbers. We need more of those in our country and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is. And we also are not going to tolerate the illegal, criminal, anti Semitic behavior that we saw take place at Harvard and many other college campuses across the country.
- [32:43]
David Pakman
So let's break this down. There is no such thing as an LGBTQ major. She made that up. She gets paid nearly $200,000 a year to do what you just saw, to lie in the White House press briefing room and to lie on Fox News and to lie everywhere that she's interviewed. And she gets paid nearly $200,000 a year for the word salads that sound like they were written by Cat Turd on Twitter. And somehow this is supposed to be the professional face of the Trump administration. When they run out of real arguments, they just fall back on culture war nonsense. Now let's have a real conversation about the workforce issues we have in this country. She could have talked about wages. She could have talked about training. She could have talked about labor shortages. She could have talked about, and this is a big one. We have 500,000 open manufacturing jobs in the US right now. People don't want them either because they don't like the work or they don't like the salary, or they don't like the salary for what the work is. That's a real issue. So when Trump goes, we're going to bring manufacturing back. We have 500,000 manufacturing jobs now that we can't fill. But when she's asked about these issues, all she does is attack people that don't exist. LGBTQ graduate majors, and she doesn't do the subject justice. Now, if you really want more electricians and plumbers, fund vocational programs, expand apprenticeships, make trade education more affordable, make it accessible in every community, in rural and urban areas, in red states and blue states, pay more money to workers in those jobs. People don't avoid those jobs because they are woke jobs or they have become woke jobs. People avoid jobs because the pay sometimes doesn't match the physical toll. And that's the case with a lot of these. Labor jobs guarantee fair wages and benefits, guarantee that working conditions will be safe. They're doing the opposite. They're cutting regulations. They're making it okay for work conditions to be more dangerous. So instead of the instinct being, oh, let's mock people that go to college, let's offer real options to workers who want to transition careers, especially with AI and automation disrupting entire sectors. So the real issue here is not college versus trade. It's not plumber versus LGBTQ major, which doesn't even exist. We're trying to build a country where both are respected, accessible, and lead to a dignified life. No matter which approach you take, you shouldn't have to borrow to meet an unexpected expense of a few hundred bucks. You shouldn't have to choose between a medication copay and food for your family. And tons of people are in that position. So yes, Caroline Levitt is a cartoon. Yes, she's a disgusting, unempathetic troll who earns almost $200,000 a year in taxpayer money while regurgitating this drivel and pablum. But we actually have a bunch of stuff we could work on here and we could improve. So yeah, it's depressing. But you know what? In a year and a half, we get to vote again. And then we get to vote again in 2028. And if we're all still here, and I'm going to talk about that after the break, hopefully we can, we can make things a little bit better. People in my audience know I am a bit of a pastry connoisseur. Our sponsor Wild Grain is the first bake from Frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries and pastas. Wild Grains boxes are customizable depending on what you like and prefer. They've got their classic variety box. They've launched the new gluten free box. They have a plant based box that's 100% vegan and it just takes the hassle out of baking because all items bake from frozen in 25 minutes or less. Nothing to clean up. 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The link is in the podcast Notes in an extraordinarily rare moment of clarity, right wing commentator and longtime Trump defender Ben Shapiro who always says, you know, I don't like the bluster, but on policy, Trump's pretty good that Ben Shapiro is now calling out Donald Trump's weakness on Ukraine, especially his both sides approach to Russia's war of aggression. Even the right is now admitting that Donald Trump is projecting weakness. Now this is not about glorifying Ben Shapiro, but there is a lot of interesting stuff to discuss here. So let's take a look at the clip and then we will discuss again. I'm not sure what he wants from Zelensky that Zelensky hasn't already given him. Zelensky has given him the immediate cease. Fireski has said he will go anywhere for direct talks. Zelensky gave him the rare earth minerals deal. And sort of both sidesism from the Trump administration and from President Trump is the reason why Putin is pushing and Putin believes he can get away with it. So here's the translation. Putin is walking all over Trump and even Ben Shapiro realizes it. And I think it's important for us to set expectations. This isn't like a Shapiro defection. He's not denouncing Trumpism or abandoning maga. But let's understand this for what it is. When right wing media figures like Ben Shapiro start criticizing elements of what someone like a Trump does, it's usually not about morality. It's not about principle. It's not about competence. It's about optics and control. They'll hit Trump when Trump's position threatens to make the right look weak. That's what this is really about. Or when Trump's position deviates too far from their preferred policy, like Trump's blanket tariffs, they won't ever touch the bigger issues. The criminality of Trump, the authoritarianism of Trump, the stream of lies, the playing coy and being enamored with the authoritarian strongmen around the world, because at the end of the day, Trump still delivers for their movement. He keeps the base angry, he keeps them activated, he keeps them voting Republican and attempts to keep Democrats out of office. So criticism like Ben Shapiro's, it usually is like a double purpose thing. It will distance the commentator just enough so that they can look principled and they can go, look, I can be objective here. When Trump does something wrong, I'm willing to call it out, except he's silent about the authoritarianism and all of that. So that's one purpose of this, but it never threatens Trump's power. That's. That's the double purpose. Let me criticize and make myself look like an objective observer, but I'm not going to do anything to jeopardize Trump's power and the consent that he's been big picture able to manufacture for what he's doing. They never call for real accountability is the thing, and they never suggest that someone else take over. And they certainly don't want to fracture the coalition that keeps the right competitive, so they'll nibble around the edges. Well, he's wrong about Ukraine. Oh, I don't know that he should have said that about Ron DeSantis. Or here's a tweet that was phrased inarticulately, but they never pull the plug. Not the ones with anything really to lose here. But what Ben Shapiro does when he says this is making Trump look weak is that he's exposing a truth Trump's base mostly doesn't want to hear, which is that Trump is not coming off as strong on foreign policy. Trump's using appeasement. He's. He's wrapping it in tough guy rhetoric, or he's trying to, but he's using appeasement. And this is what weakness looks like. Refusing to hold dictators accountable, pretending there is blame on both sides and getting played in the process. And even if Ben Shapiro, who at one point treated Trump like a conservative savior, if even Ben Shapiro is saying, Trump's looking weak here, you know that cracks are forming, Ben's not going to be the guy that ultimately, you know, digs a shovel in there and separates the two sides, but the cracks are forming, and maybe it's an opportunity for 26 or for 28. I need to talk to you about something that I know is going to trigger strong reactions from people in my audience. My only request is that you hear me out first. Okay. The title of this segment is I'm Preparing to leave the country. And before you start typing angry comments about how, how I'm abandoning the United States or whatever, I want to be crystal clear, I am not actively planning to leave the United States at this moment. I'm not packing bags. I haven't bought a one way ticket anywhere for my family. What I'm doing is I'm preparing to leave the country should the need arise. And as I've said to people, when they call in, if we all leave, we lose the fight by default. But I will never tell someone, don't do what's best for your family. And so this is a form of prepping. In a way, it's contingency planning. So let me kind of walk you through what I've been doing over the last few months as the ire of MAGA Trumpism has pushed closer and closer to people that are generally, in my situation, adversarial and antagonistic. Content creators, naturalized American citizens, another group of which I am a member. And let's have a rational conversation about preparedness. So, number one, I have been exploring what would it take to move to Canada? Canada is a difficult place to move to. I'm not doing the whole I'm moving to Canada thing. It's also difficult to move to Canada. But I want to understand the process. What are the requirements? What is the timeline? What is the framework under which I would potentially qualify to move to Canada? It's a very complicated process, but I want to be informed. Secondly, I have been reviewing options in Argentina. Now I already hold citizenship in Argentina. I'm from Argentina. Argentina has its fair share of problems there, right? It's not like you move to Argentina and all of a sudden your, your problems are gone. There are serious problems in Argentina, economic and also political. This is not about fleeing. It's okay if I want to go back there. What does that mean for me? What does that mean for my family? Third, I have, at the advice of people in my audience, I have engaged with a law firm that would help me were I to have a problem reentering the United States. I have found a law firm that essentially will be on standby when you reenter the country, no matter your status. I'm a naturalized citizen. Should I have a problem, that would be someone that says we will be available within X period of time and should you have any issue getting back into the country. I want to make sure I understand my rights as a naturalized citizen when it comes to reentry. And fourth, this is not like passport bro stuff. I've consulted with a specialist about European countries where you can get permanent residency. This is not because I'm planning to become a European resident. It's because I want to understand what are the options and how does it work? Now, you might say, david, why are you spending time and money if you're not planning to leave? And the answer is the same reason people have emergency funds in a bank account, even if they're not planning to lose their job. It's the same reason people have insurance even though they're not planning to have a car accident. It's the same reason people have fire extinguishers even though they don't plan to set any house fires. Things are really uncertain right now. And we've seen how quickly things can change. We've seen journalists and political commentators in other countries face persecution. We've seen civil liberties eroded in places where people thought it wouldn't happen. So. So am I saying I will need any of this? No. Am I saying it's likely? No, not yet. No, I'm not saying it's likely. I'm saying I've determined circumstances are such that I want to know all of my options. Now, I want to be clear about what this is not. This is not a scheme to avoid paying taxes. I know there are people who say, oh, you know, you can move to Cyprus, and then this is not about that at all. I'm not looking for tax havens. In fact, it's very difficult to renounce American citizenship. It's not something I'm even thinking of. And if you don't, even if you move to another country, you still have tax responsibilities here in the United States. So this is not about shirking any financial obligation. This is not about lifestyle preference. It's not the passport bro stuff, as I mentioned, or, you know, expat fire or any of these movements. This is purely. I want to understand my options in case circumstances change in ways that make staying here untenable for someone in my position. I still believe as of this moment, right end of May 2025, I still believe as of this moment that the most likely scenario is I will never need any of this information. I'll continue living and working in the United States, paying my taxes, contributing to civic discourse, calling the United States home. But if the last four or five months have taught us anything, it's that sometimes unlikely scenarios become a reality when they do. I want to be prepared. That's what this is. And, you know, the fact that I feel like I need to justify contingency planning so extensively, probably tell you tells you something about the current political climate and the fact that this even is controversial and is probably why it makes sense. So have I lost my mind? Let me know I think I'm being realistic about being responsible in preparation. I want to hear from you. What do you think? Is it reasonable contingency planning what I'm doing? Or am I overthinking things? Or am I suffering from paranoid delusions? Let me know info@david pakman.com I love exploring new countries. If you follow me on Instagram you see me in Italy or France or Denmark, Spain. I do speak English and Spanish fluently, but if I'm going somewhere where there is a different language spoken, I turn to an app called Babbel. Our sponsor. Babel is the app that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks. I'm busy running a business. My daughter is running around, so Babble's bite sized 10 minute lessons are just perfect for me. I can do it on the go, do it during a lunch break. It's only a little bit of a time commitment each time and you end up with a surprising level of comfort with the language after just a few weeks, which was perfect before my recent trip to Italy. Studies from Yale, Michigan State University and others continue to prove Babble is better and Babel is faster. One study found that using Babel for 15 hours is equivalent to a semester at college in a language class. Here's a special limited time deal for my audience right now. Get up to 60% off your babel subscription, but only for my audience at babel.com/pacman rules and restrictions may apply. Get up to 60% off at babel.com/pacMan spelled b a b b e l.com/pacman rules and restrictions may apply. The link is in the podcast notes well, the MAGA base is waking up and they are not happy. At a recent town hall, Republican Congresswoman Ashley Hinson made the mistake of saying the quiet part out loud. And House Republicans are getting clobbered. Let's take a look at this first clip.
- [50:54]
Trump Supporter
I was also proud to vote for President Trump's one big beautiful bill last week. This is a generational investment. This is a general investment. This is your time.
- [51:09]
David Pakman
This is a crowd of Republicans. This is a crowd of Trump voters. These are Ashley Hinson's own constituents and they are booing her. And when she tries explaining to them, hey, Trump's fighting for you, the crowd says, no, no he's not. Take a look.
- [51:27]
Trump Supporter
The election I think Americans overwhelmingly rejected the status quo for the country. We were seeing an open border, high inflation. We were seeing hardworking men and women in Iowa and our country feel like their voices were not heard. Families in Iowa have told me for the last four years that we want to make sure we have safe streets, we have affordable groceries and gas, and that kids have opportunity to be able to live out the American dream. And that is what President Trump is delivering for us. And the president is, I believe, fighting for you and fighting for me and fighting alongside of him. And I think God saved President Trump's life in Butler. I think he saved his life in Butler, Pennsylvania, for a reason. I think that he is helping us to save and redirect the future of our country. He is helping deport criminal, illegal aliens rather than letting them roam our streets freely. He is ending the abuses of taxpayer dollars rather than treating your money like Monopoly money. And he's unleashing.
- [52:26]
David Pakman
This is not a blue district. This is not a protest. These are Republican voters and they're sending a message, which is they're not buying Trump's sales pitch anymore. It is not only Ashley Hinson. Over in Nebraska, Congressman Mike Florida Flood faced a revolt at his own town hall when he tried to say that this new Republican budget, the big, beautiful bill, is going to reduce the national debt. It's not. It's going to increase it. And you actually hear shouts from the crowd of, you're making it worse. Take a look. Why is it that only the rich benefit from this and the rest get stuck having to pay the debt later, as we do with this bill? Say that last part again. Sorry. We have to pay the debt later as we do with this bill. This is not going anywhere. Obviously. It's the thing that I care the most about this bill. This bill, while it isn't perfect, is the first time in generations that we've actually made major mandatory spending cuts. We have to grow the economy as much as we cut this in order to get out of this. Otherwise, here's the. Here's the interesting thing to me, though, if we think this is. If we think this is uncomfortable tonight, imagine the day that comes when the bond market. So this is politically significant, but there's some details here that I think are worthy of a little examination. Trump's big, beautiful bill is this tax and spend package. It was passed at not even 7am Eastern time, with chants of USA, USA. It's a big loser. But they want to sell it as a win. In fact, they have to sell it as a Win, but it's packed with huge giveaways to the ultra wealthy. That's, that's the way Trump operates. Deep cuts to programs. People rely on very little for working or middle class Americans. Now even Republican voters are starting to realize this is a con job. It's performative patriotism, it's fake populism. The Trump brand of gloss has worn off. And what's left is a party that governs for donors and for Trump's friends rather than constituents. And you know what? Good for some of these voters. It's not a lot yet, but good for some of these voters. They're waking up to it now. We should look historically at these intraparty revolts. Republican voters turning on Republican lawmakers, because it can go one of two ways. It can fizzle. Isolated anger doesn't really spark a major call for a political shift. Or they can be very impactful. And we can look at history. So think of the Tea party rage in 2010. It felt like a grassroots uprising against the establishment, but it ended up really getting co opted by wealthy donors and right wing media. People like Joe Walsh ended up out of, out of office and actually turning on the Republican Party. Bigger picture, it had real anger, but the Tea Party's anger was funneled right back into supporting the Republican Party. You got the Tea Party Caucus. It was just a more extreme form of the Republican Party. Nobody was held accountable. And instead, people like Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz rode that outrage to power. Now think about 1968 Democratic voters, especially young ones, revolting against support of the Vietnam War by the Democratic Party. It led to the rise of Bobby Kennedy. It led to the collapse of the existing Democratic coalition. It made room for Nixon and the Republican Southern Strategy. It didn't all necessarily work out the way we would have wanted, but it had impactful, meaningful change. So the question we now find ourselves facing is the anger we're seeing, the boos and the shouts and the rejection of Trump's economic agenda. Does it turn into action? If it's just catharsis for these Republicans who show up and scream, the party's going to be able to absorb it pretty easily. If it becomes organized, if it picks specific targets and says, we want these people out, if it shows up in primaries, if they break off into their own movement, then the Republican Party has a real problem. Because what we have not seen is an organized anti Trump movement from within the Republican Party. George Conway, Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, These are individuals, you know, Republican voters against Donald Trump. We've interviewed some of them, certainly more thoughtful people than we've become used to seeing in the Republican Party. But it didn't lead to any serious revolt and in fact, Trump got reelected relatively easily. So that's the question we now face. Which way do you expect it to go? I have a message for MAGA today. Trump is never going to release the Jeffrey Epstein files. Stop waiting. In no substantive and complete way are you going to see the full Epstein files that you've been waiting for for years. MAGA has been obsessed with Jeffrey Epstein, Clint. The Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Hollywood, the elites, they're all supposedly part of some grand conspiracy that goes through Jeffrey Epstein. And Donald Trump they believe is the outsider hero who was going to expose all of it. But as if Trump hadn't already made it crystal clear, Cash Patel made it super clear yesterday during an interview with Fox News that the MAGA nuts who were desperate for those Jeffrey Epstein files, you're never getting them, at least not from the Trump administration. Take a look at this. There are the Epstein thing you dealt.
- [58:24]
Reporter
With, Maria, you said as far as.
- [58:26]
David Pakman
You know, he killed himself. I'm telling you he killed himself.
- [58:29]
Reporter
The other thing on the Internet is the Epstein files.
- [58:32]
David Pakman
What's the answer to that? The answer to that is the same as everything else. I'm not going to withhold information from the American public ever. But I'm also not going to rush to get it out there in a format in which they can't rely on it. So on the Epstein matter or any other matters, we are diligently working on that. And it takes time to go through years of investigations, years of political maneuvering and years of COVID up to get the American people what they deserve. And that's what I'm going to give them on everything.
- [59:04]
Reporter
Yeah.
- [59:05]
David Pakman
So the translation here is you are not getting the files from Trump ever because Trump doesn't want them released. Remember things Trump has previously said, remember this one? Mr. President, you said, when can we.
- [59:20]
Trump Supporter
Expect the Epstein documents to be released?
- [59:23]
Reporter
Which documents?
- [59:26]
David Pakman
I don't know.
- [59:26]
Reporter
I'll speak to the Attorney General about that. I really don't know. I know that we've done, we've done the rfk, the Kennedy, Martin Luther King is out there very shortly. So we'll find out. But we've, and we've, we've really, really announced we're doing them in full transparency. You know, when we did jfk, people were saying, oh, maybe it wasn't all, it was all.
- [59:53]
David Pakman
And then remember this other one from Fox News? Would you declassify the 911 files? Yeah. Would you?
- [60:00]
Trump Supporter
Declassified JFK files?
- [60:02]
Reporter
Yeah, I did. I did a lot of it.
- [60:04]
David Pakman
Would you declassify the Epstein files?
- [60:07]
Reporter
Yeah, Yeah, I would. All right. I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there, because it's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. But I think I would.
- [60:21]
David Pakman
Trump is not going to expose Epstein's network and he might even be a part of it. There's a reason Trump gets cagey every time Epstein comes up, because Trump's former relationship with the now deceased Epstein is more than just a passing acquaintance. Trump and Epstein have been photographed together many times in the 90s and the 2000s Mar a Lago parties. Trump once famously said, I've known him for 15 years, terrific guy. He likes beautiful women as much as I do. Many of them on the younger side Trump knows. And Trump might be implicated. He later said, oh, I had a falling out with Jeffrey Epstein. But we have court filings and witness testimony that suggests that their circles at minimum continue to overlap. And one of Epstein's accusers, Virginia Giuffre, said she was recruited at Mar a Lago while working there as a teenager, into Epstein's ring or whatever. Trump was also named in Epstein's address book in flight logs. Not as frequently as others, but still there. So the point here is not Trump may have had criminal involvement with Jeffrey Epstein. I don't have any basis on which to make that claim right now, so I wouldn't make it. But Trump is not an outsider when it comes to Epstein. He was right there in the mix with the so called elites. And now Trump has every incentive to keep the files buried. So for all these MAGA people waiting around, oh, we're going to Cash is going to give us the documents or Dan Bongino is going to give us the documents. Now, as assistant Director of the FBI, you're not getting the documents because Trump doesn't want them released. We've got a great bonus show for you today. We're going to talk about Jordan Peterson's disastrous Jubilee debate, one Christian versus 20 atheists, where Peterson goes, I'm not saying I'm a Christian. We will also talk about Trump considering a pardon for a group convicted of plotting to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who was on the show not long ago. And finally, Trump is going to pardon a reality TV couple convicted in a $36 million fraud. What the hell is going on with these pardons? I'll be joined by producer Pat on the bonus show. Make sure you are signed up@join pakman.com and folks, we are relaunching our newsletter as a broader publication name to be announced soon. Make sure you're on our mailing list. Email infoavidpakman.com say David, get me on that sub stack. Or you can also sign up on my website, davidpakman.com I'll see you on the bonus show.