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The David Pakman Show
6/24/25: Total confusion as rockets fly after Trump claims ceasefire
01:04:49
-- On the Show: -- Greg Landsman, US Representative from Ohio, joins David to discuss political violence and the Republican budget proposal -- Trump explodes in rage and confusion after Israel and Iran both ignore his self-declared ceasefire,...
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- [00:08]
David Pakman
Welcome to the show. Hope you're staying cool if you're in the heat wave. Confusion, chaos, lies, distortion. All things we've become very accustomed to in Trump world. And we now have a pathetic, diminished, flaccid looking Trump begging on truth social media and dropping F bombs about the cease fire. That was not to be. Or maybe it is. I don't know. Who could have guessed that foreign policy could be so difficult. I'm going to try to walk you through the last 24 hours of chaos involving Iran, Israel and the United States. And the theme here is Trump in way over his head, getting extraordinarily frustrated because they're not considering him the king and final say on everything. So let's start last night, Donald Trump putting out a post on Truth Social announcing a cease fire where he said, quote, congratulations to everyone. It has been fully agreed by and between Israel and Iran that there will be a complete and total cease fire in approximately six hours from now when Israel and Iran have wound down and completed their in progress final missions for 12 hours, at which point the war will be considered ended officially. Iran will start the cease fire and upon the twelfth hour Israel will start will start the cease fire and upon the 24th hour, an official end to the 12 day war will be saluted by the world. During each cease fire, the other side will remain peaceful and respectful on the assumption that everything works as it should, which it will. I would like to congratulate both countries, Israel and Iran, on having the stamina, courage and intelligence to end what should be called the 12 Day War. This is a war that could have gone on for years and destroyed the entire Middle east, but it didn't and never will. God bless Israel, God bless Iran, God bless the Middle East, God bless the United States of America and God bless the world. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America. Trump really wants credit for ending a war that he precipitated, arguably by getting out of the Iran nuclear deal during his first term. Trump is the arsonist who wants credit for partially putting out a fire that they started. But Iran said what? At first Iran reportedly said, yes, we'll do it, but then Iran launched missiles at Israel. Stephen Miller, in the middle of all of this, goes on Fox News and brags about Trump's major success in the 12 Day War as they are now dubbing it. This is another authoritarian classic which is assign names to things that you want called a certain way. Donald Trump dubbing this the 12 Day War, which he can now say, I ended the 12 day war, that famous war. Here is Stephen Miller saying we should all be praying at the altar of Trump.
- [03:14]
Stephen Miller
Well, let's just take a moment to think about how historic this moment is and what President Trump has achieved in this 12 day war. Presidents going back to Bill Clinton have said it is the policy of the US Government not to allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon. But under every president, except, except Trump, Iran marched closer and closer, closer to being able to put onto a ballistic missile a nuclear warhead that could take out an entire city. That has been the direction Iran has been going in year after year. President Trump took action flawlessly through the United States military to obliterate Iran's nuclear sites.
- [03:55]
David Pakman
Now, by the way, later we will talk about how the obliteration claim is also an exaggeration. It's all lies all the way down.
- [04:01]
Stephen Miller
And to stop them through the use of military force from having a nuclear weapon. It was a bold, courageous action and it happened without a single leak, without a single solitary service member losing their life.
- [04:17]
David Pakman
Now of course, Iran may indeed have moved the enriched uranium, expecting exactly what took place. We're going to get to that later. But Stephen Miller's perspective on this is we what a hero, what a savior, what a brilliant military mastermind. Donald Trump moments later putting out on truth social quote, the cease fire is now in effect. Please do not violate it. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States and then reportedly minutes later, now after the cease fire, Iran launching another missile barrage at Israel. Is the cease fire in effect right now? I don't know. I guess yes, maybe, sort of. There might be a cease fire. It's possible. Except further reports this morning of Israel and Iran trading attacks and it sent Trump for an absolute loop. Let's talk about that next. This morning Donald Trump suffered a furious meltdown when his cease fire was ignored. Dropping the F bomb. Trump is big mad. Let me lay it out for you. This is after Trump was seemingly up all night putting out messages on troth Central about the cease fire, saying please, please abide by the cease fire. At 6:50 this morning, Donald Trump put out a troth message where he said, israel, do not drop those bombs. If you do, it is a major violation. Bring your pilots home now. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States. And then Trump on camera, furious, melting down. This was just after putting out that troth and dropping a nasty, nasty F bomb.
- [06:14]
Stephen Miller
Iran violated the peace agreement and the peace fight agreement. Do you believe that Iran is still committed to speech?
- [06:20]
Caroline Levitt
Yeah, I do. They violated it, but Israel violated it too. Israel.
- [06:25]
David Pakman
As soon as we made the deal.
- [06:27]
Caroline Levitt
They came out and they dropped a.
- [06:28]
David Pakman
Load of bombs, the likes of which.
- [06:30]
Caroline Levitt
I'd never seen before. The biggest load that we've seen. I'm not happy with Israel. You know, when I say, okay, now.
- [06:36]
David Pakman
You have 12 hours, you don't go out in the first hour, just drop.
- [06:40]
Caroline Levitt
Everything you have on them. So I'm not happy with them. I'm not happy with Iran either.
- [06:45]
David Pakman
But I'm really unhappy if Israel is.
- [06:47]
Caroline Levitt
Going out this morning, because the one rocket that didn't land, that was shot, perhaps by mistake, that didn't land, I'm not happy about that. You know what we have?
- [06:58]
David Pakman
We basically have two countries that have.
- [07:00]
Caroline Levitt
Been fighting so long and so hard.
- [07:03]
David Pakman
That they don't know what the fuck they're doing.
- [07:05]
Caroline Levitt
You understand that?
- [07:07]
David Pakman
An absolutely, blisteringly few. Furious Donald Trump shocked that not everybody does whatever he tells them to do. Who could have known that foreign policy could be so difficult? Donald Trump also expressing further displeasure with what's taking place. He's watching those 34 Nobel Peace Prizes just slip through his hands. Both sides not to violate the ceasefire.
- [07:37]
Stephen Miller
But reports coming from the region suggest that the sides accuse each other for violating the ceasefire. So I think I violated it. I don't think.
- [07:46]
Caroline Levitt
I'm not sure they did it intentionally. They couldn't rein people back.
- [07:50]
David Pakman
I don't like the fact that Israel.
- [07:51]
Caroline Levitt
Went out this morning at all. And I'm going to see if I can stop it. So as soon as I get away from you, I'm going to see if.
- [07:58]
David Pakman
I can stop it. Ok. And how does Trump try to stop it? Moments after this video was filmed? Donald Trump trying to stop stop it by putting out messages on his social media platform. Truth Social.
- [08:13]
Caroline Levitt
Truth Central.
- [08:15]
David Pakman
Yeah. Where he said, quote, israel is not going to attack Iran. All planes will turn around and head home while doing a friendly plane wave to Iran. Nobody will be hurt. The cease fire is in effect. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States. And as you know, when you sign a message with your name and title on Truth Central, it is legally binding. That's a joke. What are the themes here? Number one, Trump's pretty impotent in this entire thing. Number two, Trump doesn't constitutionally and emotionally have what it takes to actually manage this situation. And number three, Trump is not particularly well respected globally. The problem now for the Trump administration is they have some tangible and specific issues to deal with, including what happens with oil, what happens with gas. We talked about it on the bonus show. But now Caroline Levitt is weighing in. In her infinite wisdom, White House press secretary Caroline Levitt admitted that there really is no plan at the White House to prevent oil and therefore gasoline prices from skyrocketing as a result of Donald Trump's attacks on Iran. Now we are in the middle of what is maybe a cease fire. We don't know. We already have a cease fire that's been violated by both sides. It's sort of anyone's guess exactly where we'll land. And it's moving so quickly that even by the time you listen to today's show, circumstances may have changed. The question to Caroline Levitt was if Iran shuts down the Strait of Hormuz, is there a plan by the United States to add oil to the global market? Because otherwise prices are going to skyrocket and then gas prices are going to skyrocket. Levitt's answer is Iran would be foolish to shut down the Strait of Hormuz.
- [10:05]
Stephen Miller
If Iran shuts down the straight Hormuz, is there a plan by the US to add oil to the global market? We saw the Biden administration strategic Petroleum. Is there a plan? I can assure you the administration is actively and closely monitoring the situation in the Strait of Hormuz and the Iranian regime would be foolish to make that decision.
- [10:23]
David Pakman
Question do you have a plan to deal with that? Answer, Iran would be foolish to do that. The problem is that we're already seeing an uptick in gas prices. Gas prices up about 5% over the last couple of weeks. And this is before the supply was actually constrained. They simply do not have plans. Now, I have been careful for more than a decade on this show not to give presidents more credit nor to give presidents more blame for gas prices being up or down. Presidents can only really do a couple of things with regard to gas prices. I've told you the list. One thing presidents can do is release oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, the spr. This can temporarily lower prices, believed to be somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 cents a gallon. Temporary. And that's all that that will be. The other thing presidents can do is they can do a gas tax holiday. This is briefly removing taxes on gas, making it cheaper by saying for this period of time, this weekend, for example, or during this 24 hour period, there will be no taxes on gasoline. Therefore that will make gas briefly cheaper. The third thing presidents can do to impact gas prices is to bomb or go to war with people who can affect supply. And that is exactly what Donald Trump did. And that is what Iran can do with the Strait of Hormuz. Now, do they have any plan to deal with that? It's very clear that they do not. Caroline Levitt also asked during the same question and answer period at the White House on regime change. On regime change. Why? Why has the perspective changed so quickly? And going from regime change is not the plan to I'm not going to get ahead of the president on that regime change.
- [12:09]
Stephen Miller
That question of if the president was supporting that idea of having supreme leader assassinated, he's now voting this idea. Is that an idea that I'm not going to get ahead of the president? I just explained his truth to you last night.
- [12:23]
David Pakman
There you go. So that has gone from very clearly a no. This is not about regime change over the weekend and late weekend into Monday to now. Certainly not a no. Very different than what we heard just days ago. One thing that is important to understand about her getting ahead of the president, it's impossible to get ahead of the president because even Trump doesn't really know what he's going to do two minutes from now, as we saw this morning from this mishmash of Truth Social posts about a cease fire and then dropping an F bomb and saying the ceasefire has been ended, and then going back to Truth Social and saying we're going to keep the cease fire. You can't get ahead of the president in the sense that Trump doesn't even have a clue what he's doing. This is the environment in which we're operating. We're doing our best to keep you up to date on what's going on. And also, what's going on is changing by the minute. So after the break, we're going to talk about media reaction to a lot of the chaos here. We are going to discuss issues related to some of the ancillary and tangential aspects of this conflict. We will deal with those who are saying Trump now deserves the peace prize because of what he did and so much more. So make sure you're subscribed to the YouTube channel. It's free YouTube.com/the David Pakman show. And make sure you're getting my substack@david pakman.substack.com. very quick break. Back right after this. All right, if you're a busy professional or entrepreneur constantly jumping between meetings or a manager, this is for you. Our sponsor, Plod, is redefining how we capture and process conversations. And honestly, it's one of the most impressive AI tools I've tried. Plod Note is a credit card sized a gadget that sticks to the back of your phone. 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That's sh e a thunderwear.com/pacman use code PACMAN for 20% off. The link is in the podcast. Notes the David Pakman show is indeed an audience supported program. This is not some vague abstract thing with no tangible meaning. It means that it's people like you who support the work that I do every day. It's people who listen to the podcast or watch YouTube clips, or watch TikTok clips, or on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat or even on Snapchat. I barely know how it works, but we're on there. The people who watch or listen to the show on any of these platforms are fundamentally what is supporting our ability to do this. And so I invite you to add your name to the ranks. Get a membership@join pacman.com and remember that if you have cable, you're sending Fox News four bucks a month. Just so you know, we don't get any default subscriptions of that kind, but you can sign up@join pacman.com and we do an extra show every day, believe it or not, for our members. Donald Trump suffered a complete and total meltdown on Truth Social when social media outlets including CNN and MSNBC didn't say what he wanted them to say. What Donald Trump wanted CNN and MSNBC to say is that the Iranian nuclear facilities that he targeted were totally destroyed. That any nuclear materials that they were housing also went up in flames in the blasts. Unfortunately, media outlets have not been able to independently confirm that. And unfortunately, it appears as though while damaged, some of these facilities were not destroyed. Now, Trump claims they were destroyed, but we have reporting and satellite imagery contradicting Trump. There are also, by the way, claims that nuclear materials, enriched uranium, were moved from those locations before the attack, possibly because Donald Trump himself tipped off the Iranians that such an attack may be coming. So let's talk through it. Donald Trump bursting at the seams on Truth social media. That's him just bursting where he said, quote, the sites that we hid in Iran were totally destroyed and everyone knows it. Only the fake news would say anything different in order to try and demean as much as possible. And even they say they were pretty well destroyed. Working especially hard on this falsehood is Allison Cooper a fake news cnn. Now understand he's referring to Anderson Cooper. This is homophobic. This is, it's just overt homophobia. Alison Cooper of Fake News CNN Dumb. Brian Roberts, chairman of Con Cast, Johnny Carl of ABC Fake News and always the losers of again, Comcast NBC Fake news. It never ends with the sleazebags in the media and that's why their ratings are at an all time low. Zero credibility. Well, what's the problem with this? The problem, as is often the case with Trump, is that the facts are getting in the way of the story that Trump is telling. The problem is that independent sources have been unable to confirm the supposed total destruction that Trump claims has befallen the Iranian nuclear sites. The Fordo facility, the heart of Iran's underground enrichment operation, was not obliterated. You can put 10 exclamation points on your Troth post. It doesn't change that U.S. and American. I'm sorry that U.S. and Israeli intelligence both agree there was damage. It may well be serious damage, but it was not destroyed. And in this game, the difference between damaged and destroyed is of utmost critical importance. 12 of our heaviest bunker buster bombs were dropped on Fordo. These are not metaphorical weapons. These are 30,000 pound slabs of steel and fire. These are designed to destroy mountains, for lack of a better term. And the site survived. Now, it was damaged, no doubt it was degraded, but it was not gone. And Iran might have been ready because satellite photos taken in the days before the strike show trucks at both Fordo and Esfahan near tunnel entrances, possibly sealing them off or moving equipment. The equipment that was moved may include over 400 kilograms of enriched uranium to 60%. That's close enough to weapons grade to make the international community say, I don't know that we like that small enough to fit in the trunk of a car. So let that sink in. We launched an expensive high tech bombing campaign without congressional approval, without even telling Democrats that you were doing it. And the material that matters the most might have been quietly driven out through the back door before the bombing. Trump's team goes out in front of cameras. We'll see Caroline Levitt do it in a moment. And they say, oh, this was masterful. This was a masterstroke. Pete Hegseth said everything was obliterated, that it was bold and brilliant. But the people who study this, right, arms control experts or former inspectors, satellite analysts, they're telling a very different story. And while the centrifuges may be gone, the uranium is, as of this moment, unaccounted for. We'll hear JD Vance asked about that a little bit later. The knowledge that they have obviously is still in the hands of Iranian scientists. The capability for nuclear weapons has been set back. It has not been eliminated. Now, David Albright is a veteran nuclear watchdog. He put it plainly, which is Iran could have simply moved the enriched uranium elsewhere and picked up where it left off. That simple. Maybe there has been a year of setback, maybe not even now. If you believe or don't believe that Iran was working on, close to or had a nuclear weapon, whatever you believe, was this worth it for maybe not even a year? I don't know the answer. I'm not asking it rhetorically, I'm actually asking. But where my head is, is that the only real way to end this program is going to be diplomacy, inspections, pressure, maybe a deal like what Obama had in place that Trump ended without Iran having violated the nuclear deal. Photo op strikes followed by delusional troths not really going to do it. So what was the point of any of this? Well, if this wasn't about permanently neutralizing Iran's nuclear program, and it wasn't, because it didn't, then we are left with some pretty dark possibilities. Was this political theater from the get go, right, flexing for the base, a reminder that Trump has a red button that he can press without asking Congress, and then bombs fly, if that's what it was about. Well, that's terrifying. That's horribly authoritarian. And that's how empires act when they forget what winning actually means. It's not as sexy to just sign a deal and have Iran not enrich anything. It's just, it doesn't make for hot headlines the way Trump wants. And if you're wondering, is anyone safer because of this? The experts don't really think so. But that's not going to stop Caroline Levitt from continuing to carry out these obvious lies. Let's go to that next. Whenever Trump lies, Caroline Levitt's lies are not far behind. Donald Trump's White House press secretary was very quick to jump on Good Morning America and repeat Donald Trump's claims that, of course, Iran's nuclear facilities have been completely destroyed. Now, as we already talked about, experts believe that that's not the case. Satellite imagery certainly shows damage. It does not show obliteration, it does not show destruction. But here is Caroline Levitt, always confident, even in things for which she doesn't know a damn thing, saying she's confident. We are confident that it's been complete.
- [25:03]
Stephen Miller
Obliteration for America and for the world. And just to follow up for clarity, you said, yes, it was completely and totally obliterated because there have been different assessments on exactly how much damage has been done. We are confident, yes, that Iran's nuclear sites were completely and totally obliterated, as the President said in his address to the nation on Saturday night. And we have a high degree of confidence that where those strikes took place is where Iran's enriched uranium was stored. The President wouldn't have launched the strikes if we weren't confident in that. So this operation was a result resounding success. And administration officials agree with that as well.
- [25:40]
David Pakman
Administration officials, the propagandists agree with their own propaganda. Understand what she's saying. She's not saying independent nuclear experts, former nuclear inspectors. She's not even saying nugular, which sometimes they say. She goes, the administration believes our own claims that Everything was destroyed, Pete. What she's telling you is no better than saying, Pete Hegseth agrees with Trump that they were destroyed. Kristi Noem agrees with Pete Hegseth that they were destroyed. Now, of course, there was real damage, without a doubt, but this was incomplete. It's also possible that the most critical parts of the nuclear infrastructure weren't even hit. It's like claiming you burned down a house when you knocked over a patio chair or something like that. Now it gets even better. Brett Baier As Vice President J.D. vance, do you even know where the enriched uranium is? After rumors and statements that Iran may have knowingly moved the enriched uranium elsewhere, he doesn't know. Officials have conceded this in writing. JD Vance does everything he can to avoid a direct admission. You said totally obliterated. The President has said totally obliterated the Iran nuclear program.
- [27:06]
Stephen Miller
Do you know for sure where all the highly enriched uranium is? Well, Brett, I think that's actually not the question before us. The question before us is can Iran enrich the uranium to a weapons grade level?
- [27:18]
David Pakman
Now, it's funny because before that wasn't the question. Before it was, we are absolutely confident that Iran not only can, but has enriched it to weapons grade level. And the question is, can we destroy it now that they have no idea, no clue whatsoever where the enriched uranium is? Now that's no longer an interesting question to them.
- [27:40]
Stephen Miller
And can they convert that fuel to a nuclear weapon? And we know based on the success of our mission, of course, the leadership of the President, but the incredible skill of our military, that the two mission objectives are completely successful. We know.
- [27:54]
David Pakman
We do not know that based on former inspectors, nuclear experts and satellite imagery. We do not know that. We do not know that based on American and Israeli analyzes. We only know it if JP Mandel and, you know, Caroline Levitt telling us that means that we know it, that.
- [28:14]
Stephen Miller
They cannot build a nuclear weapon. Now, you asked about the highly enriched uranium, like 900 pounds. But what we know, Brett, is that uranium is something that exists in very large supply. Our goal was to bury the uranium, and I do think the uranium is buried, but our goal was to eliminate the enrichment and eliminate their ability to convert that enriched fuel into a nuclear weapon. I actually just, I think that's an important point, Brett, because so many of the folks who have focused on the highly enriched uranium 6 main focus, Brett, has been to destroy their enrichment capacity because we don't want that 60% in radium to become 90% in radium.
- [28:52]
David Pakman
And of course, we do not know whether Their capacity has been destroyed.
- [28:56]
Stephen Miller
That's the real concern. And that's what was so successful about our mission.
- [29:00]
David Pakman
So after all this, if the Iranian.
- [29:02]
Stephen Miller
Government survives as is, what's to stop it from rebuilding over time? If they in fact moved the 60% highly enriched uranium? You know, that's.
- [29:10]
David Pakman
And of course, in this particular case, Bret Bayer's question is good, which is the belief right now is that at most this has given a year, a year for Iran to get back to where it was concern.
- [29:23]
Stephen Miller
No, the big concern, Brett, and this is again, what we destroyed is their ability to enrich uranium. If they have 60% enriched uranium, but they don't have the ability to enrich it to 90%, and further, they don't have the ability to convert that to a nuclear weapon. That is mission success. That is the obligation, obliteration of their nuclear program, which is why the President, I think rightly is using that term. But here's the question. If Iran is desperate to build a nuclear weapon in the future, then they're going to have to deal with a very, very powerful American military. Again, our hope is that the lesson that the Iranians.
- [29:57]
David Pakman
All right, I think you get it. None of the real questions matter anymore. Only their claims about what now matters. Retrospectively is what you should be paying attention to. There's no, yes, we know where the enriched uranium is. There's no, no, we don't know where the enriched uranium is. It's. You know what, Brett, I don't think that's the right question. Now. Of course it's the right question. If you're going to bomb a country and say, mission accomplished, maybe, just maybe, we should know whether we destroyed the thing we claimed to destroy. But this is how it now works. And Trump makes the claim, his press secretary repeats it. Anyone who hesitates if you even ask a question, you are labeled disloyal. Why are you asking that question? What are you, fake news? And meanwhile, the truth ends up buried under this pile of rubble and egomania and half literate press statements. So Iran's nuclear program was not totally destroyed if the goal was to mislead the public while escalating a global crisis. They nailed that. But how much they set back Iran's nuclear program, I don't know. And of course, that's a completely separate question from why didn't they get congressional authorization to do this? What happened to even letting Democrats know that this was going on? And as usual, it's the blind leading the blind. We're going to take a break. We'll speak to Congressman Greg Landsman after this short break. Make sure you're getting my substack@david pakman.substack.com Are you planning any exciting trips? I've got a couple lined up and one thing that I've learned is that being able to speak even a little bit of the local language can make a huge difference both for your experience and how you interact with locals. And that is why I use Babel. Babbel is the language learning app that gets you talking quickly. It has 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts. They're really built around real world conversations, the things you would actually say when traveling. Ordering food, asking for directions, chatting with locals. No gimmicks, no fluff, just practical language skills. And the best part is that you can start speaking in just a few weeks. I've used Babel to help me get ready for trips abroad. It does a great job. I just arrived with a little confidence that I can navigate a new place with some basics without having to pull my phone out every five seconds. Babel also has advanced speech recognition, which helps to fine tune your accent as you go. It's like having a tutor in your pocket. And Babble is giving my audience 60% off subscriptions at babel.com/pacman the link is in the podcast notes. That's B a b b el.com/pacman. Rules and restrictions may apply. It's great to welcome to the program today. Congressman Greg landsman representing Ohio's 1st 1st congressional district since 2023. So I want to start with something that is just, I want to understand the details of it. You were told that you were on the hit list for the Minnesota Assassin. Terrorist. I don't know what word exactly we're using at this point. Tell me about. How are you notified about that? Who tells you? What do they say? What do you immediately do?
- [33:19]
Caroline Levitt
So Capitol Police called us on Sunday morning about 10:30 and said we were in the writings. We got an email from our local folks who work really closely with the FBI. And it provided a little bit more detail that we were in fact on, on the hit list, whatever that means. We still don't really know. So we, you know, Sunday sort of turned into, okay, let's lock in. You know, we got local law enforcement involved. They're great. You. I was at City hall for years, so I know a lot of these folks. And they had a car out here at the house immediately. And it was a little strange because, you know, in a situation like this, they were doing, you know, they were walking the house, the perimeter of the house, every 20 to 30 minutes, which is very weird. And I sort of sent everyone away, so it's just me just to be safe. And around nine o' clock. None of this is funny. I just, looking back, it makes me laugh. But I, you know, the, the, the, the cop outside sent me a text and said, sir, can you please turn off your inside lights and, and turn on your outside lights. And that was it. It was just a very. And I, So I get up, I turn all the lights out, I turn out the, you know, on the, you know, the floodlights. And, and it just is an immediately strange and unnerving moment because you're just like, what is happening? And it was just precaut. The Nothing obviously happened. This man never left Minnesota, but for like 30 minutes, I wasn't sure. And, you know, and of course I'm thinking, well, he's just told me to do that for precaution. But I don't, I don't know. And I, you know, I don't really want to walk out there and ask him or even send a text. I'll just sort of hunker down. In any event, they caught him at 10:30. And, you know, we were, we were relieved. Still don't know why we were on the list. You know, I'm pretty outspoken. I'm also a Jewish member of Congress. It could be one or both of those things, or neither. We just don't.
- [35:31]
David Pakman
What do you think about the broader environment that's been created where, you know, some percentage of the current president's movement does see physical violence as a legitimate proxy to political activism? I'll just leave it there and sort of keep it broad. I mean, it seems palpably different to me than where we were 10 years ago.
- [35:55]
Caroline Levitt
Yeah, it's 100% different. And I mean, look, you know, we've always had contentious politics in America and, And we've had periods of time where things got pretty bad, Right. But this has been as bad as I've ever seen it in my lifetime. And I'm old enough to remember presidents, presidents that were really good at lifting the country up and bringing people together. It was just sort of core to who they were. I mean, that was sort of the essence of Biden, and that was what Barack Obama was. Barack Obama's superpower. Bill Clinton was good at it. You know, I think George W. Bush, you know, had his moments where he was really good at it. And so, you know, it's not, it's not a Republican or Democratic thing. I think it is a Trump thing. And, and, and then the reaction to Trump, there are people on our side that I think go too far because he, he goats them into being less than who they really are.
- [36:58]
David Pakman
So I want to. Oh, no, go ahead. Yeah.
- [37:01]
Caroline Levitt
No, I just, I, I, I, I, I'm optimistic in the sense that I do believe that these things happen, you know, that there's a pendulum. And I, I, I, I believe it's very possible, not inevitable possible, certainly, if we all push for it, for the next set of leaders to be the opposite of this, to be, be convicted about what they, you know, what they're fighting for and to fight for, you know, and work their tails off to get things done, but to do it in bipartisan, you know, you know, bring people together kinds of ways. And I think the country will take to that kind of leader. That's what we need.
- [37:39]
David Pakman
Well, that's what I was going to say. I want to believe, and I do believe that the percentage of the entire country that is willing to turn to this kind of violence is extraordinarily small. But when you have 340 million people in a country and you have a movement that is feeding them with de facto target lists, these are the groups that are causing you a problem, and these are the people that need to be dealt with. You don't need it to be a high percentage thing to wreak complete chaos over a country.
- [38:11]
Caroline Levitt
That's correct. And so, you know, we're seeing that. I mean, I will say there's also, you know, this, this, this rise of anti Semitism, and it's, it's the same thing. The vast majority of people who sort of, you know, either oppose the war or don't, like Bibi Netanyahu or, you know, they, there's, there's not a violent bone in their body. But when you have the kind of rhetoric of genocide and, you know, globalize the intifada and these kinds of things, it will grab somebody who's unwell, and that leads to political violence. And so part of it is, you know, being, again, being very careful about our own rhetoric and pushing for leaders that are good at bringing people together and fighting for what they believe in, but doing it in a way that does not spread disinformation or cause people to, like, go, you know, kill people. It also means that we have to, like, finally get serious about the social media stuff. And, and, and that means, you know, Trump could bring all these people, you know, these CEOs of the big tech companies into a room like they're like his buddies now, right? And say, like, we're not doing this anymore. Get this crap off your social media platforms. Congress should do it. And the best way for Congress to do it is to simply eliminate the, you know, the liability shield on these companies. The idea that you can't sue these companies or a gun manufacturer is insane. And that has to stop. And the third thing is we have this in Cincinnati. An entity that just gets all of the data, does the analytics, provides really meaningful analysis and gives that to law enforcement so law enforcement can get in front of these threats. And we don't have that on Capitol Hill. That's something I'm going to push for, you know, when I get up back to D.C. this week.
- [39:59]
David Pakman
Well, let me give you the counter to the eliminating, to the dealing with the liability shield. Because as someone who's an independent creator myself, the fear I have about eliminating that liability shield is that if that's done, platforms on which we get hundreds of millions of views a month, like YouTube, Tik Tok and others will say, you know what, David, we don't want to touch the type of thing you're doing. It's too risky for us now that there's no liability shield. And I and some of my colleagues worry that that would absolutely decimate independent media.
- [40:34]
Caroline Levitt
Well, I would take that very seriously, you know, and work through how to do it. You know, don't you worry though that. Let me, let me count our argument. You're, Let me counter your counter.
- [40:45]
David Pakman
Yeah.
- [40:46]
Caroline Levitt
Or just maybe ask a question which is, don't they need you? I mean, like, aren't you the ones driving traffic?
- [40:54]
David Pakman
You know, the reality, unfortunately, is that the entire news and politics category is relatively tiny on these platforms. And so I think presented with the liability of what if I say something about Trump or whatever, I think that they would go, we're going to do away with news and politics. And they've even tested this a previous time saying, you know, if you talk about anything related to controversial issues, at one point, if you just talked about abortion or Covid or the Ukraine war, you were demonetized or limited. So I think they are so risk averse that it would be a real problem for us.
- [41:29]
Caroline Levitt
Fair enough. But it sounds like that's a larger issue of them, you guys just not having the power, you know, to sort of push back, maybe. So, yeah, I mean, you know, so, yeah, I could, I can imagine a liability, some liability changes that do protect you all. And, and obviously I want to protect free speech in general, like 100%.
- [41:52]
David Pakman
Yep.
- [41:53]
Caroline Levitt
So, you know, it's maybe it's not lifting the whole thing, but it's also probably helping, you know, the independent folks have the sort of, you know, power they need in the marketplace, which is a larger, broader issue that, that Congress has to tackle and you know, to fix this economy. Not to go off on a tangent, but everyone hates this economy except for billionaires. They love this thing. And the only way you're going to fix it is if you fix the tax code so that you. Rewarding hard work, not wealth, which is a fundamental change in our tax code. And you're dealing with corporate consolidation and returning power back to people and small businesses and creators like these people have way too much power.
- [42:34]
David Pakman
So let's talk about the tax part. I'm very interested in your thoughts on this. One of the big picture realities is whenever there's a discussion about let's raise the income tax rate on the very rich very quickly, we remember the very rich for the most part are not earning income that is taxed by those brackets. So then the conversation often shifts to a lot of the same ideas. A wealth tax, which in the current legal framework, I simply don't think it's legal. You could change the legal framework. I just don't think it currently would be, would be plausible. Right. Let's raise the capital gains rate to be equivalent to the income tax rate. The problem is you can just avoid selling any assets and then simply borrow against them, which is something that the very wealthy currently do. When you look at taxing assets like, you know, fine works of art or whatever the case may be, there are logistical challenges and the infrastructure of now having to appraise those things. Does the government really want to be in the business that. The point I'm getting to is it can be a pretty difficult thing to actually raise the effective tax rate on the very, very, very rich. What specifically would you do to deal with this issue?
- [43:47]
Caroline Levitt
So, a couple of things. One is, I think it's really important to start by saying most people need tax relief. So if you know, working folks, middle class folks, farmers, small businesses, you provide them with the tax relief is certainly what's in this bill. Like that's fine. You know, you could, you could probably go further and I would, I mean, the, the child tax credit, the refundable earned income tax credit spread out over 12 months so that people are getting income each month so they can pay all their bills even if you don't care about them, which I Do I care deeply about them and the success of them, Their success and their children. It's good for children. We lifted so many people out of poverty because of the child tax credit. Yeah, they spend money in their local economies. That's good for economic growth. On the fixing the tax code at the top, you adjust the rate for the top wage earners and up, you know, right now it's at 37%. You can go back up to 39.2. You know, I suspect if you went to 40, very few people would complain. And then the billionaire minimum tax, the, you know, requiring people to pay their taxes on all their income and wealth and, and, and the corporate tax rate, which went from 35 to 21%, could be adjusted back. I mean, this is, you know, that money for the most part went up, not down. It didn't trickle down. It went to corporate investors.
- [45:18]
David Pakman
But explain to me the second to last thing you said there. You. If you take a very wealthy person, you look at their income, it's often zero. It's literally zero. In many cases they get dividends, they sometimes sell pieces of stock. They've got bonus structure, deferred income. How when you say make sure you're get, you're capturing all their income. Sometimes they have no income. So what do you do?
- [45:43]
Caroline Levitt
Well, I said income and wealth.
- [45:45]
David Pakman
So you would do what, you would do a wealth tax. I just don't know that. That, I just don't know. From what I've read, I don't know that the current. You'd have to change the law to do it. I guess the question is, are you willing to do that?
- [45:57]
Caroline Levitt
Yeah, I would hope so. I mean, look, I want, I want to be able to give people tax relief that need it, help them all their bills because they're working harder than they ever have and it's hot. They're having a hard time paying all their bills. And that's not sustainable growth. That does not help us grow an economy. And then I want, I would like to get to a balanced budget. I want to stop this deficit spending. I think it's very bad for the country to have close to 40 billion, a trillion dollars in debt. It's very, very bad. It's bad for the economy because we're borrowing a bunch of money and that pushes that messes with rates. It's also just bad for the budget because we can't use that money for other things that would help grow the economy. It's terrible for national security. So I would like to see Democrats get really serious about debt reduction. And that means the last time we had a balanced budget was, was Bill Clinton in 1993. And that was in part because of tax fixes. I mean, he, he, he went after some spending and, and Democrats should be okay with, you know, an across the board freeze or, you know, it's getting serious about waste, fraud and abuse. But ultimately I think that fixing the tax code and, and doing a wealth tax will give us the ability to invest in tax relief for people who need it, balance the budget and get us to a place where we're, we're building the infrastructure, the housing, investing in education. That creates economic growth and that's good.
- [47:27]
David Pakman
For everyone, including the billionaires to do any of this. At some point, Democrats have to get back in power. So the last thing I want to ask you about is for 2026, I'm hearing a lot of really good criticisms of what Republicans are doing right now. I just don't know that they are doing really bad things is necessarily enough. What do you think Democrats should run on for the, for the election that's now just a little over a year away?
- [47:53]
Caroline Levitt
We're going to fix the economy. It's fundamentally broken. It's been broken for decades. Sorry if we said otherwise or others did that, you know, things are fine. Look at, look at, look at unemployment. No, no, it's fundamentally broken because people are struggling to pay their bills and it's a lot of people. So we're going to fix the economy by fixing the tax code, by going after corporate, you know, by dealing with corporate consolidation, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And we're going to get serious about rebuilding again. You know, build baby, build is my thing. Like, you know, like not to be, you know, too funny or, but like we are. This is the, the abundance work that the Azure Klein and others have talked about, which is we are going to invest in infrastructure and, and housing and we are going to cut the red tape and start building and making things happen again. And then the third is we are going to get serious about public safety. Democrats have to get serious about public safety. We're going to fix the economy for you and we're going to keep you safe and we're going to build stuff again. To me, those are the three most important things I've laid out in an op ed that will hopefully get published sometime next month because it's, you know, it's one of those things that it's better summer reading. But you know, it essentially says Democrats need to lay out a complete vision for moving the country forward. We need to put our 10 bills. Republicans in 1994 were in a similar spot. They were kind of in the political wilderness and they, they led with this Contract for America. So I lay out our 10 bills and I just told you the top three. But I also believe that Democrats have to sort of regain trust with voters and that's coming clean. On saying like we, we should have done more on the border. We, we should have passed comprehensive immigration reform. We should have passed or fought harder for the fixes to the democracy. The John Lewis Voting Rights act, banning dark money, ending partisan gerrymandering. We should have been, you know, honest about what was going on with Biden. I was one of the, you know, few people who said he should step, step aside. And you know, and, and, and somebody who was very much saying we've got to deal with the border and immigration reform and fix the economy. So I just, I think Democrats have to sort of own some of the things that maybe not call them mistakes, but where they're not where the vast majority of voters are. Because if you want to go do good work and you're a true progressive, you want to go help people, you have to win elections in order to do that.
- [50:30]
David Pakman
All right, Congressman Greg Landsman, thanks so much for your time and your insights today.
- [50:35]
Caroline Levitt
Thanks, ma' am. I appreciate you.
- [50:37]
David Pakman
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- [52:46]
Caroline Levitt
Efforts that is protecting the entire world. That, and we don't even know the true, the true magnitude of, of what.
- [52:55]
David Pakman
This will do in the future or what it's just so awesome this could have become if it wasn't dealt with.
- [53:01]
Caroline Levitt
In other words, the number one state.
- [53:03]
David Pakman
Sponsor of terror with nuclear weapons.
- [53:06]
Caroline Levitt
And then, of course, ballistic missiles that.
- [53:08]
David Pakman
Get longer and longer in terms of their range. What that could have meant for the.
- [53:12]
Caroline Levitt
United States, what that could have meant for the world. The world is a safer place tonight is my conclusion. What's yours?
- [53:18]
Stephen Miller
I couldn't agree more, Sean. God bless President Trump, God bless the US Military, and God bless the Israelis for paving the way so this mission could be as successful as it was tonight. The president reiterated what you've been saying, what I've been saying for weeks now leading up to this, which is the Iranian regime has been at war with the American people for 45 years and their pursuit of a nuclear weapon was the final straw. And I thought when President Trump said tonight that they've been killing and maiming our people, and he decided to a long time ago that this was not going to continue. It's so interesting to watch the relationship between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and President Trump, not just in the last six months since President Trump came back into office, but also combine that with what they did together during the first term. You know, this time around, President Trump invited Netanyahu, as the first foreign leader in his second term, to visit America, to come visit him at the White House to talk about these issues. He then came back in April and actually had a meeting with a number of reporters. I happened to be there at the Blair House with Netanyahu, and he talked about this relationship that he had with President Trump and how different it was from the Biden administration, how he could trust America, how he could rely on President Trump, how he was a man of his word, how they were on the same page. And now here we are today, with the success of this military strike, not on one nuclear site, but three. And a message not just the Iranians, but to China, to the rest of the region, even to Russia. So this was a night of historic proportions.
- [54:51]
David Pakman
I know this is nauseating, but we're getting to her key statement here.
- [54:54]
Stephen Miller
President was courageous in making this move and in making this decision. And as you said, I think we're going to see the fruits of this decision tonight play out for many, many years to come. And if the Nobel Peace Prize were worth anything anymore, I would say the president certainly deserves one.
- [55:11]
David Pakman
He gets the Nobel Peace Prize for bombing Iran. Donald Trump's former press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, she says she. She believes he should get 34 Nobel Peace Prizes.
- [55:24]
Stephen Miller
So rather than World War Three, we may get more peace. And rather than 34 felony counts, President Trump may end up with 34 Nobel Peace Prizes for the leftists. You can clip this and make it go viral and go nuts.
- [55:35]
David Pakman
Yeah, it's not about clipping it and making it go viral and go nuts. It's just you sound really dumb. You. You sound delusional, and you sound like a cult member. Laura Loomer said, Donald Trump should be getting the Nobel Peace Prize. Thanks. We should be thanking Trump. Nobody says thank you anymore.
- [55:53]
Stephen Miller
And if people had any sense about them, they would be calling for Donald Trump to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for saving humanity from a nuclear hotel holocaust. And yes, Iran did have access to nuclear weapons. Yes, Iran did develop nuclear weapons. President Trump said so himself. And look, they're saying, oh, well.
- [56:10]
David Pakman
And remember, just because Trump says something doesn't make it so.
- [56:13]
Stephen Miller
You know, we're just repeating the time of Bush. Weapons of mass destruction. Who was one of the biggest critics of President. Of. President Bush and, you know, his claim that there were weapons of mass destruction. Who was one of the biggest critics of the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Afghanistan? President Trump. Even before it was popular to do so, President Trump was anti war. Even before it was popular to do so, he was calling for Bush to resign over the invasion of Iraq and the claim that there were weapons of mass destruction. And so President Trump is trusted. This is why we voted for President Trump, because he's a leader.
- [56:46]
David Pakman
He leads with strength.
- [56:48]
Stephen Miller
I trust President Trump. President Trump's not going to lie to.
- [56:50]
David Pakman
The American people and tell the American people that he. Of course he lies all the time. All right. And then finally shout out to the Fox News control room. I mean, really, just amazing timing. They cut to a glowing montage of Trump and the targets. As Mark Wayne Mullen says, Trump is actually the president of peace. They cut to it, to a thing that says Trump's warning that there's many targets.
- [57:16]
Stephen Miller
And by the way, President Trump is the president of peace. He wants peace more than anybody.
- [57:22]
David Pakman
Right? And then as he is saying this, they have images of a B2 bomber dropping a GBU57AB bomb. Incredible. Understand that this is the network that called Barack Obama a warmonger for the drone strikes. But now missile strikes, we are to believe, make Trump Gandhi. And this is straight up Orwellian stuff. This one's not Kafka esque, this one is not Huxley, and this is Orwellian. War is peace. Trump orders a bombing campaign without warning, without authorization, and now he's a man of peace who deserves 34 Nobel Peace Prizes. It's the exact same playbook that we've seen 100 times. You frame violence as stability, you cast aggression as leadership, and then you call it peace if the person communicating it to you is standing in front of an American flag. This is not foreign policy. This is propaganda. The people pushing it know exactly what they're doing. It's out of the playbook. They all know the playbook. And it's also worth mentioning that Donald Trump has been obsessed with the Nobel Peace Prize since he found out that a Barack Obama got one. So I do think, to a degree, the people talking about this, the people saying now he deserves it, I think they're placating that instinct. He talked about it constantly. He was seething with envy that they gave it to Obama. Why didn't he get one for when he stepped over into the DMZ with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, for example, or for any of the various cease fires, the problems that he started. None of this is about peace for Trump. It's about my ego says I should have a Nobel Peace Prize. Revenge tells me I should have the Nobel Peace Prize. If Obama got it, Trump wants it, even if he's got a bomb his way there. Finally, one little funny bonus. This. We're going back now to the night of the bombing. Here's Hannity mispronouncing some of the targets, pronouncing one, Estefan, like Gloria Estefan.
- [59:18]
Caroline Levitt
That's not all.
- [59:19]
David Pakman
Two other major Iranian nuclear sites, Natanz and Estefan, were wiped out with 30 Tomahawk missiles. They got Gloria Estefan. Folks, the threat is over. The rhythm is not going to get you. You will. You will be pleased to know. So this is how warped Things have become Republican president launches a strike. No congressional authorization, no public debate, no justification based on an imminent threat, certainly. And the right's first thinking instinct is give him a trophy for peace because he did bombs. Look at how hilarious but also terrifying this is. Donald Trump posted to Truth Social Truth Central that there is such great unity in the Republican Party. They are so united right now in the Republican Party over everything. The context was the Iran strikes. Less than two hours later, roughly two hours later, Trump unleashes a wild tirade against a Republican who dared to differ with Donald Trump. So check this out. First post from Trump. Great unity in the Republican Party. He writes. Perhaps unity like we have never seen before. Now let's get the great big beautiful bill done. Our country is doing great maga. Two hours later, Trump unleashes the following tirade against a fellow Republican. Quote, congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky is not maga, even though he likes to say he is. Actually, MAGA doesn't want him, doesn't know him, and doesn't respect him. He's a negative force who almost always votes no, no matter how good something may be. He's a simple minded grandstander who thinks it's good politics for Iran to have the highest level nuclear weapon while at the same time yelling death to America at every chance they get. Iran has killed and maimed thousands of Americans and even took over the American Embassy in Tehran under the Carter administration. He goes on to say, Massie is weak, he's ineffective. And on, look at this wall of text. You don't even need to see the whole thing. It's Trump ranting about Thomas Massie, the crime that Thomas Massie committed. He didn't cheer loud enough when Donald Trump bombed Iran with no congressional authorization. That's it. Massie said, hey, you know, these strikes were not authorized, were sort of like supposed to be involved in this in the House of Representatives, the way the founders intended. And he was concerned that even before this that Donald Trump didn't care about checks and balances. A very reasonable concern. But now Trump wants obedience. And if you hesitate even for a second, you're suddenly pro Iran, you're anti military, you're on the wrong side of maga. But at the same time, Trump's telling you Republicans have never been more united. So we should really understand what this is. These are not policy disagreements. These, it's, this is a purity test, which is how the Republican Party now works. You either worship Trump or you're a traitor. And that is a classic characteristic of Cults. Remember that Massie is a hard right libertarian. This isn't Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger. This is a guy who votes against everything, but even he isn't loyal anymore. Also, minor detail. Trump calls Massie lazy and nonproductive, right after bragging that he spent the morning posting memes about bombing nuclear sites. So Trump's standard for laziness may leave a little something to be desired. But this is also part of something much bigger, which is that Donald Trump has been pushing a great big beautiful bill that very few people understand, and that somehow, according to Trump, is going to stop a 68% tax increase, which nobody can figure out where that came from. It seems completely made up. Doesn't even matter what the number is. The message is support the bill or you're against America and Trump is coming for you. And now he's coming for Thomas Massie. So this is not a united Republican Party. This is, if anything, a terrified Republican Party that acts not out of agreement over policy, but acts over fear that Trump is going to go after them. Trump's not leading a movement. He's leading, leading a cult and running a loyalty racket. Unity and fear are two different things. Authoritarians rule with fear. Now, can it. Can it work in the sense of, can Trump get away with it? Yeah, he can. And Thomas Massie alone is not going to be able to do enough to prevent that. But that's where the Republican Party is today. We have a phenomenal bonus show for you today. Make sure to sign up@join pacman.com I would love it if you subscribed to the YouTube channel. It costs nothing. It just sends a signal to YouTube. Recommend this guy's videos. That's all you can subscribe for free. Heading to 3.5 million subscribers. And finally, if the clampdown comes, we only own our data on Substack. If the clampdown comes, I will only be able to get a hold of you and tell you what's going on. If you are a subscriber to my Substack newsletter, find it@david pakman.substack.com See you on the bonus show and back here tomorrow. Here's a list of reasons to use Instacart. The game is on. The game just ended.
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