← The David Pakman Show
The David Pakman Show
6/9/25: Trump deploys troops to LA, threatens arrests, authoritarian meltdown begins
01:04:46
-- On the Show: — Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL) joins David to discuss the blatant increase in authoritarianism and the flouting of the rule of law under Donald Trump, and just as importantly, what the average person can do about it —...
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- [00:08]
David Pakman
Ladies and gentlemen, we start with a very, very disturbing situation today. We have crossed a line. The President of the United States has deployed troops to Los Angeles and has threatened to arrest elected officials who won't obey him. And including California Governor Gavin Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass, 2,000 National Guard troops have been deployed to Los Angeles without a request from the state, which is critical in understanding the illegality of this, without local coordination. Over the explicit objections of Governor Gavin Newsom and Mayor Karen Bass, Trump then went a step further, threatening to arrest both of them. This is happening. What Donald Trump has effectively done here is to federalize the California National Guard under the pre set pretense of saying there is lawlessness happening that needs to be quelled. This is because protests have erupted in response to mass ICE raids across the city. Now, of course, you all know my positions on these raids that have swept up in this particular instance in Los angeles area, over 100 people, including children. You know my position on property damage and violence at protests. I'm against it. But what we have here is classic authoritarian strongman tactics where we have seen masked federal agents, even though Trump says, oh, you should. Nobody should be wearing masks. Well, except for the federal agents, I guess, storming workplaces and courthouses and dragging people away. And when people protested, Trump called it a rebellion. He called it insurrection. And he signed a memo saying these demonstrations are obstructing federal law and declared them a form of rebellion against the authority of the United States. This is the first time since the Rodney king riots in 1992 that a president has unilaterally deployed the National Guard to Los Angeles. This is not actually about restoring order. This is about performative power. Even Los Angeles law enforcement said, we didn't ask for help. And after clashes and burning cars and scattered violence, they said it was under control. But Trump didn't want control. Trump wants spectacle, and he wants to draw more people out across the country to justify the further deployment of more troops. This is potentially the beginning of a Trump police state, which we will focus on more specifically in a little bit. Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, went on TV and said, if there's any crossing of the line by Gavin Newsom or Karen Bass, they could be arrested for felony obstruction for disagreeing with federal immigration enforcement. And not metaphorically. Homan cited laws harboring. Cited harboring. I forget exactly the terminology. I should have had it in front of me. It's clear that Homan means it. These are not empty threats at Newsom and at Bass. And meanwhile, Trump is posting on Troth Central that protesters shouldn't be allowed to wear masks from the same president whose ICE officers are wearing masks during the raids. He's calling these demonstrations radical left uprisings. He claimed victory before the troops even arrived. He thanked the National Guard for a job well done, even though they were still on their way to Los Angeles. So this is all performance. And Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, escalated it even further, saying that active duty Marines at Camp Pendleton are on high alert and could be deployed next. We'll dig into comments on the legality of that a little bit later. What's the big story here? It's a familiar playbook. Ruth Ben Guy and other historians of 20th century authoritarianism have told us about the playbook many times. You create a crisis. That's the ICE raids and immigration enforcement to begin with. You blame your enemies. That's Newsom and Bass and Democrats and anarchists, as Trump wrongly says, anarchists. You militarize the response. And then you use force, not to protect people, but to punish people. So this is so far from being about immigration that it's almost laughable to bring that up. It's about control. It's about dominating people, subjugating people, punishing sanctuary cities, humiliating Democrats, showing the country what happens if you try to resist. Gavin Newsom's calling it deranged. Bernie Sanders says it's moving the country rapidly into authoritarianism. And they're both right, because this is not law enforcement and this is not public safety. It's a president using federal troops against political opponents in a city that didn't say, hey, we need your help. Now, I want to back up a little bit. It's worth remembering that Trump didn't on January 6th say that this is an insurrection or that it is a rebellion. When Trump supporters stormed the Capitol, beat the hell out of cops, erected gallows, and said Mike Pence should be hanged or hung, whichever. Trump delayed National Guard deployment for hours. But when a mayor criticizes immigration raids, troops are there in 24 hours because it's corruption as decided upon by who's in charge, with threats to governors and mayors and banning masks at protests and turning ICE into a paramilitary force. And by the way, he's doing it while sitting ringside at ufc, shaking hands and hugging various fighters and dilettantes of different flavors. So we're beyond warning sign. This is the thing. This isn't a warning about the thing. This is the thing. It's what authoritarianism looks like. And recall that this is all happening While most major media outlets were barely covering it live. The goal is to make all of this feel normal, to break your ability to tell the difference between crisis and policy and between enforcement and punishment and intimidation. So none of this is about fixing anything. It's about making you afraid to fight back. We'll talk to a congressman later in the show about the specific goal of making people afraid to fight back. But if the right is really about the Constitution and small government and the rule of law, as they claim, they must come out against this. But they're not. They've been very, very quiet. So let's now talk about how it starts and how it continues. The way it starts is what we're seeing in Los Angeles already. And then the way it continues is with this sort of bloodthirsty, sick ranting from an authoritarian dictator wannabe, where Donald Trump, already convicted of crimes, already promised to be a dictator, maybe only for a day, starts barking at about sending troops everywhere, not just L. A. And it's not to fight a war. It's not in response to an emergency. It's because people protested. And he didn't like the way it looked on tv. Trump welcoming authoritarianism, saying, we are going to have troops everywhere. Listen to this given plan and vote Insurrection Act.
- [07:54]
Donald Trump
Do you plan to send troops to Los Angeles?
- [07:57]
What?
- [07:58]
Even if you're not planning to invoke Insurrection act, you still plan to send troops?
- [08:01]
Well, we're going to have troops everywhere. We're not going to let this happen to our country. We're not going to let our country be torn apart like it was under Biden and his auto pen.
- [08:11]
What is the bar for sending Marines?
- [08:14]
The bar is what I think it is. I mean, if we see danger to our country and to our citizens, it will be very, very strong in terms of law and order. It's about lawn honor. We're going to see what we need. We'll send whatever we need to make sure.
- [08:30]
David Pakman
All right? The. I don't know if you caught that because of the helicopter noise. The noise causes cancer. Okay. The bar for sending Marines is whatever Trump thinks it is. Whatever Trump wants. Spoken like a true authoritarian. And that's what this is. This is authoritarian thuggery dressed up as a sort of perverted patriotism. He's not talking about crime control or national defense. He's talking about cracking skulls to show them who's the boss. And the only criteria for deploying Marines is Trump's opinion. It is dominance over democracy. Trump then sort of. He mentions insurrection in this next Clip. And when he's asked to define it, it doesn't go particularly well. And he also comes up with his own version of when the looting starts, the shooting starts, protest spreading to other cities.
- [09:28]
Donald Trump
Chicago, New York, for example. In the next few days, we're going to be watching it very closely. And when they spit at people, you know, they spit, that's a new thing. And worse, you know what they throw at them. Right? And when that happens, I have a little statement. They say they spit, we hit. And I told them, nobody's going to spit on our police officers, nobody's going to spit on our military. Which they do, is a common thing. They get up to them this far away and then they start spitting in their face. That happens. They get hit very hard. What are the rules of engagement to see what happens? If we think there's serious insurrection or less than that, we're going to have law and order.
- [10:15]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Very important.
- [10:16]
David Pakman
How would you define an insurrection?
- [10:18]
Donald Trump
You have to really just have to look at this site to see what's happening.
- [10:22]
David Pakman
Once again, how do you define an insurrection? Well, you just look at the site and you see what's happening. It is Trump's opinion. Do Marines need to be deployed to do domestic law enforcement? It's Trump's opinion. His bar. Is it an insurrection? Just what do I see on video? And this is the same violent energy. You know, when Trump says when. When the. When. What was it? When. When they spit, we hit. Right. It's the same energy as when the looting starts, the shooting starts. And we know that this guy has always fantasized about unleashing state violence. One of the things he must dream about during those few hours where he sleeps is he really wants to unleash state violence on people he perceives to be his political adversaries and enemies. And now he's refining the message. If protesters step out of line, even symbolically, based only on his whims and opinion, he wants them physically punished. So we've got to get it straight, ok? Just understand what's going on. We have a sitting president threatening governors with military force if they don't obey his personal demands over a train station. This is not about restoring peace. This is just about punishment. That. That's what this is. It's tech. We are no longer in the lead up to it. We. We are in it right now. Blur the lines between police and military, treat dissent as treason, and when asked to define insurrection, of course he can't do it. Actually defining it might make the case a little bit weaker. Here. And then finally, of course, he goes after Gavin Newsom.
- [11:54]
Donald Trump
You have an incompetent governor. Just take a look at that. At the train stations that he's building, like 20 times over budget. Nobody's ever seen anything like it. So I did call him the other night. I said, look, we got to take care of this, otherwise I'm sending in this room. That's what we did. Thank you very much. Do you have a question for Marco?
- [12:14]
David Pakman
We are pushing closer and closer to full blown martial law. He's telling us who he is. He told us during the campaign what he was going to do. He's put people around him who will have zero restraining influence. And the question at this point is, are we listening to what he's saying? This is no longer tough talk. It's not even really a warning. This is him saying, we're going to do it. There will be troops everywhere. But not to protect you. It's going to be to protect him and to protect the ideology that he is pushing now. After the break, we will talk about the police state environment that is being generated here, what history tells us about how that works and what can effectively be done to resist it. Because the number one question I got over the weekend when I checked out the email is, David, we see it all happening, but what do we do? Because it seems resistance will only generate more state violence from Trump through militarizing law enforcement. Excellent question. Let's take a quick break. Make sure you're subscribed to the YouTube channel at. YouTube, excuse me, YouTube.com/the David Pakman show. And then we'll dig in in more detail to this. Having the right estate planning done. A will, maybe a trust is super important. I recently took care of it myself. It's not the most fun thing to do, but it is very important. And our sponsor, Trust and Will, makes it really easy. And you can get 10% off at trust and will.com/pacman. It's a straightforward process. They walk you through it. All of the documents are state specific. They are legally valid. They are customized to your needs, your care, wishes or nomination, guardians, final arrangements, power of attorney. You're just making sure your family and loved ones avoid a lengthy and expensive proceeding or that the state ends up deciding what happens to your assets. Trust and Will's simple step by step processes guide you from start to finish with one question at a time. 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So we do have a coupon code. It will end soon. That's the code. It will end soon. It'll save you about 50% off of the cost of a membership. And if it's affordable, right? Don't put, don't put us ahead of groceries, education, health care, housing, transportation. But if it's affordable, I would love to have your Support at. Join pacman.com Ladies and gentlemen, the Trump police state has begun. We are no longer in the hypothetical part of the timeline. We are in the right now part of the timeline. It's not tanks rolling down the streets yet, although they will be for Trump's birthday parade. It's ICE raids at Home Depot, protesters called insurrectionists, National Guard troops patrolling Los Angeles like it's Fallujah, and threats of Marines being deployed as well. Robert Reich published terrifying but very important piece in the Guardian that we are linking to that we need to take very seriously, where everything he describes, every step in the authoritarian playbook is really happening right now under Donald Trump. And it is a movie that we have seen before. And that's one of the scariest parts of this. When Mussolini wanted to consolidate power, he called protesters terrorists and sent black shirts to restore Order. When Adolf Hitler needed an excuse to suspend democracy, we had the Reichstag fire blamed on his political enemies. When Pinochet took power in Chile, he rounded up dissidents and filled stadiums with prisoners. And they all claimed to be protecting the country. They all said it was temporary. And they all said it's for our safety. We should say thank you, please give us more. And what we now have is Donald Trump declaring that anyone who protests immigration raids is committing a form of rebellion against the government. And his top adviser, Stephen Miller, says it's an insurrection. His defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, threatens to bring in the Marines to crush it. So this is not immigration enforcement. We are many degrees separated from that. It's political theater to justify a crackdown, baiting the public into reacting so he can invoke more emergency powers and push the country even further into authoritarianism and a police state. And the rest of the system, I am disappointed to say, is falling in line. We've got the press under assault. ABC's Terry Moran has been suspended for a mild criticism of Trump on Twitter. If journalists are getting punished for telling the truth, you know, press freedom is over. And this is what autocrats do. They don't just silence dissent, they make an example of people who dare to speak. They said he should be fired. For now, he's been suspended. Courts are being ignored, right? ICE is just abducting people outside courthouses, even those whose cases were thrown out. And the rule of law means nothing if force can be used to sidestep it. And that's what's happening. Universities are being purged with vanishing academic freedom. Teaching history, race and inequality is labeled radical. It gets banned, it gets defunded. If you do it. This is what they've done in Turkey, in Hungary, in Russia, universities, then you go to unions, then you go to the political opposition. And then big picture, a lot of corporate America has completely surrendered. DEI programs gone. For many companies, they weren't forced to end them. They chose to. And that is another part of how fascism sometimes wins, which is through fear and cowardice and forcing self censorship. Not necessarily with the law, although sometimes it is with the law. And now we get to one of the sadly most common and terrifying characteristics, Federal forces being used against civilians. Raids, rubber bullets, tear gas, flash flashbangs, flash grenades. I think they're called criminalization of dissent. And so at this point in time, it seems, it seems as though we are one contrived manufactured crisis away from martial law. So we are no longer in the warning phase. We are in the red alert phase, we're not waiting for fascism. We are starting to see it and we're going to be deeper in it if we pretend that this is normal or if we act as if this is quickly reversible or something we can later vote our way out of. So what do you do if you're an ordinary person who sees this and feels horrified? We'll get an answer from a member of the House later, but I'll give you my opinion. Number one, talk about it loudly, publicly. Share it, make noise, don't let anyone in your life. Normalize it. That includes on social media. Number two, show up, join peaceful protests. Support groups that are organizing for immigrant rights and press freedom and civil liberties and the rule of law. Protect each other. We can do a lot in our communities. And if you are in a position where you can use your status to shield more vulnerable people, be they immigrants, students, workers, whoever, speak up when others can't and then push back. Demand that. You know, you might not be able to convince Trump, but maybe in your workplace you can have an impact. Maybe in your school you attend or maybe teach at your church, your community group. Tell them we need to take a stand. This is not a time to be neutral. So of course we vote. But we organize, we fund, we mobilize, we speak while understanding. While understanding that you don't need to risk arrest. If you're a parent, you don't need to risk being taken away from your children that need you. I'm not here saying put yourselves in harm's way, that will damage and hurt yourself and your family. That's not what I'm saying. But we do need to make a decision. Are you going to look away and hope that this passes or will you join the. You know, it's believed that when 3.5% of the population activates tyranny and authoritarianism can be stopped, that's what we need to really think about and understand. And sometimes authoritarianism comes in, draped in a flag, carrying a Bible, walking around with rubber bullets, pointing at illegals and saying, we're here for your protection. Oftentimes this is how authoritarianism and fascism present themselves. They seem to be here. And if you need any greater proof that they just don't give a damn about the law, look at what the speaker of the House said yesterday. MAGA Mike Johnson, a supposed constitutional conservative, rule of law, small government guy, he was asked, he was asked, is there any concern to you that sending Marines to the street is too heavy handed? And MAGA Mike Johnson said, no, no, it's not, it's, it's completely fine. Secretary Hegseth said that active duty Marines there at Camp Pendleton, there by San Diego are on high alert and could be mobilized. Could we really see active duty Marines on the streets of Los Angeles?
- [26:21]
Mike Johnson
You know, one of our core principles is maintaining, maintaining peace through strength. We do that on foreign affairs and domestic affairs as well. I don't think that's heavy handed. I think that's an important.
- [26:30]
David Pakman
Marines into the streets of an American city is heavy handed.
- [26:33]
Mike Johnson
It, we have to be prepared to do what is necessary. And I think the, the notice that that might happen might have the deterring.
- [26:39]
David Pakman
Effect using active duty Marines on the streets of an American city. Peace through strength, as we were told. Now, there's a legal reality here, and I hope everybody knows it. The Posse commentators Act of 1878 prohibits the use of the U.S. army or air Force or other branches of the military to execute domestic law enforcement unless expressly authorized by the Constitution or by an act of Congress, which Congress has not authorized. The National Guard is supposed to be under state control. Typically, the National Guard answers to governors who use it for emergencies and including riots. What Trump is doing is called federalizing the National Guard. Now, there are Circumstances under Title 10 of the US Code where you are, where the President can be justified in federalizing the Guard, where the Posse Comitatus act would start to apply, that is extremely narrow, extremely narrow. Those requirements have not been met. What Donald Trump is doing is by all serious accounts, against the law and the people who claim to be the greatest defenders of the law in the Constitution and what the framers wanted and you've heard it right, people like MAGA Mike Johnson, they go, no, it seems reasonable to say we might deploy Marines to the streets for law enforcement purposes. A reminder once again, there is a reason why I say don't bother engaging in theoretical debates about values and principles with these people, because as soon as it becomes politically inconvenient, they abandon them. And as soon as it becomes politically expedient to take positions that are 180 degrees divorced from what they claimed, they will do it. And this is all in service of the Dear Orange leader who had a major meltdown last night over all of this. After midnight last night, while most world leaders were asleep or depending on the time zone governing, Donald Trump was spiraling in a meltdown on Truth Social, where he was rage posting about Los Angeles like a guy who just lost an argument in the comments section and, and is furious that nobody's Paying attention to what he wants to say. What triggered the meltdown, the protest in Los Angeles and the fact that he can't control them. So here is Trump melting down. This is not your crazy uncle who's hate commenting on Facebook. This is the President of the United States, Quote, Governor Gavin news scum and Mayor Bass should apologize to the people of Los Angeles for the absolutely horrible job they have done. And this now includes the ongoing L. A riots. These are not protesters. They are troublemakers and insurrectionists. Remember, no masks. First of all, calling protesters insurrectionists is rich coming from a guy who incited an actual coup attempt. I guess he thinks Gavin Newsom. I don't even know what he's talking about. But more importantly, he's now declaring that this is a situation where if you wear a face mask, you are a criminal. But the face masks of the insurrectionists storming the Capitol were no problem. And the face masks of the ICE agents that are out there carrying out this brutality are not a problem. It's only a problem when it's the protesters. Trump then, continuing in the conspiratorial vein, paid insurrectionists. Because as we know, the maga, right, assumes that when Americans protest something that Trump is doing, they must be getting paid. And it is the same lie. We've seen it so many times before. Anyone we don't like is a paid actor. Unless they're wearing the MAGA hat, in which case they are legitimate. Unless the person in the MAGA hat does something wrong, in which case it was a paid actor wearing a MAGA hat to pretend to be a Trump supporter. Ay, yay, Trump. Continuing, Jim McDonnell, the highly respected LAPD chief, just stated that the protesters are getting very much more aggressive and that he would have to reassess the situation as it pertains to bringing in the troops. He should right now. Don't let these thugs get away with this. Make America great again. This is not normal presidential behavior. This is a deranged man demanding military action against Americans from his phone at, what was it, 1am 2am because someone made him feel powerless. This is not strength. It's a tantrum dressed up as tough talk. And it's also worth noting the protests filled with law enforcement wearing masks. But Trump doesn't care about that because he cares about optics and control and punishing those that make him look weak. Trump continuing looking really bad in L. A. Bring in the troops and then also arrest the people in face masks. Now Trump wants to send the law enforcement wearing face masks to arrest protesters wearing face masks because that's what he wants. It's not what the law says. And this is of course not how a democracy is supposed to respond to protests. This is how authoritarians lash out when the crowd stops cheering for him. And if Trump had the power to lock people up just for wearing a mask, he would do it. So if you are still under the illusion that this man respects the Constitution, look at what he's posting to the Internet at 1am and you're going to find a dictator in waiting. So after the break, we're going to speak to Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy. He has an opinion as to what needs to be done here. We'll see if we agree or we disagree. After that, we'll hear from Caroline Levitt. What is her position on what's going on. Make sure you're getting my daily newsletter by signing up@david pakman.substack.com we'll take a quick break and be right back. 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Or go to askchapter.org pacman all you have to do is dial £250 and then say Medicare. Or you can go to askchapter.org/pacman. The info is in the podcast notes. Are you planning any exciting trips? I've got a couple lined up and one thing that I've learned is that being able to speak even a little bit of the local language can make a huge difference both for your experience and how you interact with locals. And and that is why I use Babel Babble is the language learning app that gets you talking quickly. It has 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts. They're really built around real world conversations, the things you would actually say when traveling. Ordering food, asking for directions, chatting with locals. No gimmicks, no fluff, just practical language skills. And the best part is, is that you can start speaking in just a few weeks. I've used Babel to help me get ready for trips abroad. It does a great job. I just arrive with a little confidence that I can navigate a new place with some basics without having to pull my phone out every five seconds. Babel also has advanced speech recognition, which helps to fine tune your accent as you go. It's like having a tutor in your pocket. And Babel is giving my audience 60% off subscriptions at babel.com/pacman. The link is in the podcast notes. That's B a b b el.com/pacman. Rules and restrictions may apply. It's great to welcome back to the program today, Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy. Congressman, always good to see you. Not exactly ginger snaps and rainbows right now in terms of what, what's facing Congress. I want to talk a little bit about what's happening in Los Angeles, maybe as a representation of broader authoritarian concerns. You know, I'm hearing from my audience, we sense that this is a palpably different moment than we've faced for a long time. We realize that this is a threat to law and order and the rule of law that we haven't seen for some time. But we're not really hearing what it is we can do, what it is that Democrats, Democrats in the House and Senate, if anything, can do. What, what can we do to restrain this expansion of, of the power of the presidency? How are you and your colleagues seeing it? What can be done?
- [37:04]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
First of all, thanks for having me on, Dave. And you're absolutely right. This is a moment where I think that Donald Trump is provoking conflict. He's inflaming the situation. He's, in my opinion, he's trying to distract attention from what I call the large, lousy law, what he calls a big, beautiful bill, which is going to absolutely devastate Americans and working families. He wants to distract attention from that. He wants to distract attention from what Elon Musk is doing to him. And he wants all of us to be right in this conflict here in Los Angeles and maybe even other places. I mean, we have to be ready. I think there are four things that we have to do right now. Okay. First, I think that we Democrats have to absolutely shine a light on what is happening here. I don't think we should run away from this situation in the sense that we can't just say, oh, you know, Trump is going to keep doing this. This is just normal stuff, normal Trump stuff. It's Trump being no, we can't do that. We have to shine a light that this is something that is kind of an escalation in his behavior. And as a consequence, we have to affect public sentiment in the process. Because at the end of the day, I think that Donald Trump is not an ideologue. I don't think he believes in anything except helping himself. I think he's more of a populist. So he does care about what public sentiment is. And so we want to shape public sentiment as well. Secondly, we have to continue to pursue litigation on what is happening here. This is absolutely illegal, what he's doing. He is basically federalizing the National Guard under false pretenses. And so we in Congress have to support that litigation that is happening on the outside and on the inside. Third, look, I keep saying this. We do have votes. And the question is, where do we have the most leverage here in Congress using those votes? We have to use that accordingly. I personally don't know that they're going to be able to pass this big, beautiful bill through the Senate right now. They may have to split it up in parts. They may have to actually have a debt limit bill run separately. Why is that important? They can only pass the debt limit with Democratic votes. What conditions do we attach to that debt limit bill if we decide to support it? I think it's going to have to do with avoiding all those cuts. And now we have this situation in Los Angeles. I think we have to think about that. And then fourth, and finally, I think this is very important for your listeners, which is we have to hold people accountable. Where do you stand on this situation? And in California, there are several Republicans in, in the House who are in very tough battles, and we need to put them on the spot as well with regard to the situation. What are you going to do about this? What are you going to do to get President Trump, Donald Trump to climb down from this illegal position? Those are the types of things that we have to do now. We have to put pressure as well.
- [40:22]
David Pakman
All of that makes sense. And also one of the kind of hallmarks of the 20th century authoritarian playbook, which to a degree we're seeing repeated right now, is the idea of generating a pretext to do more authoritarianism. And I think you know where I'm going with this, which is that right now this is in Los Angeles and One of the reactions is we have to do more. We have to get out there more. We have to be more visible versions of what you're saying. But we already suspect that if, for example, people in Illinois, your state mass rally in Chicago, it will be used as a Pretext, just like 20th century strongmen did, to say, well, let's send in the troops to Chicago as well. And so the question is, is there any mechanism to interrupt that? Because to a degree, it seems he wants to draw people out in order to further lock double down on the authoritarianism.
- [41:22]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Well, look, I think that we can't be silent, right? That can't be the alternative. And so I think that while we absolutely have to be careful about what you said, which is some kind of mass rally being used as a pretext for doing to them what they did in Los Angeles, I still think that shining a light, the benefits of that, so long as we, obviously we're going to be peaceful, we're going to conduct this in a civil fashion, a peaceful fashion, I think the benefits of that may outweigh the risks of basically being silent. And I think we can't, through our silence, I guess, ratify what he's doing. Now. Look, the other thing I just have to say is I get it. A lot of people are fearful. I get that. I understand that. And, and if you, if you are a listener to this show or, or viewer and you feel fearful and you don't feel like you personally can speak up in the manner in which I'm saying, that's fine, we will do it, I will do it. Other people will do it. But what are the other ways that you can support us? Right. For instance, you can offer material support. You can donate to some of these organizations potentially. You can support them through your legal services, your pro bono legal services of some kind, you can do other things to play a supporting role, even if you don't want to be the main protagonist or antagonist, whatever you want to call it. But everybody can play a part and each part will be important. Right now.
- [43:10]
David Pakman
I want to. Yeah, go ahead.
- [43:11]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Can I say one, you can also play a social media role. I mean, like the way that everybody seems to have a following of some kind or a social media group, and passing along this information to your social media group, engaging people is important as well, because everybody is running a million miles an hour and they may not pay attention to these issues the way they should. And so you elevating it also helps.
- [43:39]
David Pakman
I'm not hearing the amount of sort of activism around the issue of the student visas from the Democratic Party, as maybe I would have expected. Do you think Democrats risk losing ground with immigrant and minority groups if they, if they don't speak up more on the student visa issues? But then on the other hand, do you think generally there that it's a bad idea to limit the number of international students at some of these schools? There are different arguments that have been made one way or the other about, listen, we're not going to start stripping people of visas, but at the same time, we should consider what sort of mix of the student population do we want? Where are you on this issue?
- [44:26]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
I. So this is, this is how I view it. I think, first of all, the revocation of international student visas doesn't make any sense, especially where the person whose visa is being revoked hasn't been proven to be a danger or hasn't conducted nefarious activities, and it's just plain wrong. And also, especially targeting Chinese origin people just smacks of racism, discrimination, and prejudice. To me, it feels like the Donald Trump playbook of the first Donald Trump term, where he went after Chinese people hard and used them in a way to kind of, you know, summon the worst instincts in people and play to their worst fears. Okay, so that's one, one, one observation. Second observation is, yes, I think each state university, for instance, or every university should, should think about what is the right balance that they have in their student body. What happened is because of the decline in federal funding and state funding for a lot of institutions of higher learning, basically these institutions of higher learning turn to international students as a revenue source because they pay full freight. Okay. And so we have to recognize why they did that to understand how they can balance out their student body better in a way to have more local talent, local students, and so forth. And I think we have to recognize that if we continue to deprive these institutions of higher learning of funding, they're going to go into even more distress and they may turn to international students more and more at the expense of local students. Third, and finally, I think this is really important. Our international students, at whatever level you decide is appropriate, are absolutely crucial for our economy. I'm not just talking about them paying full freight for their tuition and room and board at University of Illinois. I'm talking about the fact that they end up being incredibly important for innovation and technologies of the future. 70% of greater than 70% of all graduate students in the STEM fields and computer science and engineering are international students. Yes, most of these people will want to stay here. Most of them will want to work here and enrich our economy and allow us to maintain leadership in these technologies of the future over, you know, for instance, Russia or the Chinese Communist Party. We need this. We need these people.
- [47:27]
David Pakman
One of the really interesting things about, about what you're saying is, you know, Elon Musk has talked a lot about our greatest existential threat is the declining birth rate. We've got to get it up, essentially by convincing people to have more kids. And one of the things I've learned in researching this issue is that as countries become wealthier, as people become more educated, as more and more women enter the workforce, you can't really talk families into having more kids in every continent. As those things happen, the birth rate simply goes down. It seems to be just the kind of reality. And so one of the things that's interesting is that if you believe that growth is going to be driven by smart people innovating, as you're talking about, and as seems to be the case, you actually need to increase immigration from other countries, legal, of course, and so on. But it's an interesting conundrum in which they've placed themselves where on the one hand they're obsessed with people aren't having enough babies, but at the same time, their immigration policy is one that won't actually do that, which would achieve the goal, which is bring smart people here and get them doing innovative things that generate growth and raise the gdp. It's an incredible conundrum that they've created, isn't it?
- [48:44]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
It, you're, you're right on the money on this, like, the reason why. Okay, so I think roughly during the time of Obama, around the second term, Europe and America basically had the same gdp. Since then, America has far exceeded Europe. Why? It's not because our birth rate went up a ton. It's not because of merely our productivity increasing. It's also because we legally have 1 million immigrants every single year. This has just been the steady kind of immigration engine, if you will, for the United States. And the reason that that is so important is because it helps to rejuvenate our workforce, even at the same time that we have a silver tsunami in terms of more people retiring. We have a younger workforce all the same, because we have people immigrating at young ages and providing that fuel for the social safety net, fuel for innovation, fuel for prosperity. We absolutely have to keep that immigration engine going. While we may have challenges at the border or whatever, we gotta control that, obviously, but we can't kill the golden goose that keeps Laying the golden eggs. That's our legal immigration system. I'm a legal immigrant. My parents came here when I was three months old. I came here when I was three months old. And so I know firsthand how important this is for America.
- [50:28]
David Pakman
That's right. Yeah. No, I'm in the same situation. I came to the US When I was five. Oh, from. Last thing. From Argentina.
- [50:35]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [50:36]
David Pakman
Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you about. When it comes to Russia, Ukraine, what do you see as the most likely off ramp given that it'll be resolved within 24 hours of becoming President elect? Became. It'll be solved within 24 hours of inauguration to. It'll be 100 days to. We're now thinking of walking away. What is the off ramp from this invasion of Ukraine by Russia?
- [51:02]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Vladimir Putin is playing Trump and I think, perhaps I'm not positive, but perhaps I think people in the White House are starting to understand that. I don't know. But the only way that we get to any kind of armistice or truce of any kind, even a Korean style armistice, is we have to strengthen the hand of the Ukrainians. If you don't strengthen the hand of the Ukrainians, Putin will have absolutely no incentive to come to the bargaining table even for an armistice or truce. Now, will he come to the bargaining table if the Ukrainians make certain concessions, such as they will not integrate into the European Community or they will not allow any other country to provide security guarantees? Maybe, but that is something that is, you know, in my opinion, I think that would be unacceptable probably for the Ukrainians to agree to. I think they should be able to have complete sovereignty over their decision making. So if we believe that an armistice or truce should happen, but only in the context of the Ukrainians maintaining their sovereignty, we have to strengthen their hand on the battlefield. That's the only way that this is going to get better.
- [52:20]
David Pakman
All right. We have been speaking with Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthy. Congressman, always great to have you. I appreciate it, David.
- [52:28]
Raja Krishnamoorthy
Thanks so much, man.
- [52:30]
David Pakman
Every year I find myself asking the same question. What do I get for the fathers in my life who say they don't need anything? A couple of years ago, I nailed it. I gave my dad an Aura digital photo frame. Now I can say it is something he actually uses every day. Aura was named the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter. Easy to see why you get unlimited photo and video storage. No subscription setup takes just a few minutes. You plug it in, connect to WI Fi and send pictures from anywhere. We were just on a trip last week uploaded pictures of my daughter. They show up on the frame in my dad's house. Baby photos, vacation pictures, memes. You can put whatever you want in there. And right now Aura has a Father's Day deal just for my audience. Get $30 off their bestselling Carver mat frame at aura frames.com when you use code pacman at checkout, that's a. You are a frames.com use code packman for $30 off their bestselling Carver mat frame. Terms and conditions may apply. All of the info is in the podcast notes. You know, every time we call out Donald Trump's authoritarianism, the right calls it media hysteria. But I want to remind you that Trump admits he's looking for ways to defy the Constitution and maybe even pursue another term. Now, if you don't know the bias behind your news, you might believe oh, Trump's just teasing us. There's nothing here. Go to Ground News, slash Pacman and see how media bias influences more than your perception from Trump's policy and ability to understand and undermine constitutional norms. I've been with Ground News for years now because this is what they do. They expose the hidden agendas behind reporting sources and make it easy to compare coverage and understand critical issues. Even better, if I'm reading a story on another site, the Ground News browser extension will flag the source's political bias and give me other reports on the same story so I can verify the information. My viewers get 40% off the same unlimited vantage plan that I use. So you get their top tier plan for just $5 a month. Go to Ground News slash Pacman. The link is in the description or scan the QR code. Which thing is a distraction from which other thing? This is always a topic of conversation. Well, the L A deployment of troops is meant to distract from the fact that Trump's clamping down on press freedom, which is meant to distract from the fact that the big beautiful bill is failing, which is meant to distract from the fact that Trump has done nothing on Ukraine, Russia. I don't know. I don't know what is a calculated distraction and what isn't. But what I can tell you is that when there are so many constitutional crises at once, it's hard to follow all of them. Another one is related to ABC's suspension of reporter Terry Moran for putting out a tweet critical of Donald Trump. Caroline Levitt, Donald Trump's White House press secretary, was on with Maria Bartiromo on Fox News yesterday. She was asked about it. And here is what she had to say. A true authoritarian nightmare.
- [56:00]
Caroline Levitt
Last night in a since deleted post, so called journalist Terry Moran went on a rampage against Stephen Miller. What happened Caroline?
- [56:10]
Donald Trump
Well, ABC is going to have to answer for what they're again so called journalist put out on Twitter in the wee hours of the night calling Stephen Miller vile. They said that President Trump is a world class hater. And this is again coming from someone who is supposed to be an unbiased and professional journalist. This is unacceptable and unhinged rhetoric coming from someone who works at a major television network. We have reached out to abc. They have said they will be taking action, so we will see what they do. But I think this speaks to the distrust that the American public have in the legacy media and it's why in the White House press shop and in President Trump's White House we have made so many significant and much needed changes to press access and transparency at the White House. We've invited in new media, we have shaken up the White House press pool. And we also just won a major victory over the Associated Press who thought that they had a constitutional right to walk into the Oval Office or to fly on Air Force One. And a judge said no. In fact, those are privileged spaces that belong to the President.
- [57:16]
David Pakman
All right, so the point here is they are thrilled at the idea of clamping down on a journalist who said something critical of Trump. Now, ABC did suspend Terry Moran. The tweet in question is as follows, quote, the thing about Stephen Miller is not that he is the brains behind Trumpism. Yes, he is one of the people who conceptualizes the impulses of the Trumpist movement and translates them into policy. But that's not what's interesting about Miller. It's not brains, it's bile. Miller is a man who is richly endowed with the capacity for hatred. He is a world class hater. You can see this just by looking at him because you can see that his hatreds are his spiritual nourishment. He eats his hate. Trump is a world class hater, but his hatred only a means to an end. And that end is his own glorification. That's his spiritual nourishment. ABC suspending Terry Moran. This is how self censorship happens. ABC was forced to do this payout with as a result of George Stephanopoulos. I don't know if you all remember this. And now ABC is in a state of fear. And one of the most notable effects of authoritarian crackdowns on the media is that the media will start to self censor. And that is what is happening here now, a couple of bonuses here from Caroline Levitt, one of the shakiest instances of math I've ever heard, ever see. If you can follow the math of.
- [58:50]
Donald Trump
This, because this bill provides $1.6 trillion in mandatory sentence savings. And when you combine that with the tariff revenue that President Trump's America first trade agenda is bringing in, nearly $3 trillion over the next 10 years. That's a projection according to the Congressional Budget Office. And when you combine that with the Council of Economic Advisers projected growth of 3%, we're going to cut the deficit by $8 trillion over the next 10 years.
- [59:18]
David Pakman
If your head is spinning from that, here's the most important part of it. The only way that this harebrained fuzzy math works is if you assume that all of the insane tariff stuff Trump is doing is going to generate major GDP growth in the United States. She's basically putting on one side of the ledger all of the ways in which the tax bill and the tariffs are going to cost us money. And then she's going, but if we go grow 3% a year, it's going to pay for all of it. Now, number one, the math doesn't check out on that, but it would if we were able to grow 3% a year. It would offset some of the costs, no doubt about that. But there's no serious economic reason to believe that this tax bill that Trump wants to pass and that the blanket tariffs that Trump has been threatening would generate that level of economic growth. This is some of the fuzziest math I have ever, ever heard. And then finally, Maria Bartiromo trying to find out what's the truth of the fist fight that Elon Musk and Scott Besant supposedly got into. Here's Caroline Levitt's answer.
- [60:23]
Caroline Levitt
What I'm trying to understand here is how rough this got because the President said that Elon Musk disrespected the office of the President. Now we know that there was real disrespect in a lot of those ex posts from Elon Musk for sure. But did he actually get physical? Was there a fistfight that he body checked the Treasury Secretary?
- [60:46]
Donald Trump
I certainly wouldn't describe it as a fist fight, Maria. It was definitely a disagreement, although I was not there. I didn't witness it with my own eyes. I heard about it through second hand reporting. But again, we've moved on from that. The President has moved on from it and the entire administration is focusing on passing this bill. But also, Maria, cutting waste, fraud and abuse from our Government remains off topic.
- [61:07]
David Pakman
She doesn't want to talk about it. She has exited that conversation. This is very much not normal. Very much not normal. Fist fights, body checking, physical disagreements, altercations. This is what happens when you let unqualified and very immature people be in charge. And it's terrifying. Well, he fell. Donald Trump tripped climbing the steps to Air Force One. It wasn't just a wobble, a full on misstep just like Joe Biden's now infamous moment. And the right wing media silent, no 24 hour freakout, no, it's time to invoke the Fifth Amendment. None of it here is video of Donald Trump climbing Air Force One. And almost exactly as it happened to Joe Biden, Donald Trump tripping and catching himself. Why does it feel like somehow this is really, really, really bad news for Joe Biden? We have it from another angle from C Span here. Now, of course, as you all remember, when Joe Biden tripped doing the exact same thing, it was a sign that Biden needed to be immediately removed. When Joe Biden tripped, Fox News and half of Congress wanted to drag him out of the White House with a wheelchair and get a priest in there to give him his last rites. But when it happens to Trump, the oldest president to begin a term in American history, when Trump slips and visibly struggles, suddenly it's nothing to see here. There is no wall to wall fitness for office coverage. There's no montage of every time Trump has had one of these glitches. And we know there's been hundreds of them at this point in time. No open letter from 200 courageous doctors. It's a Trump who had a physical struggle and all of a sudden there's no questions. What are they hiding about the president's health? Shouldn't we at least have a week of Fox News talking about whether the president is too old to be president? Now, of course, the hypocrisy writes itself. We know that Trump is stiff and slow and clumsy. And yet the same people who cried about Biden's every step are pretending that this is totally normal. Shouldn't we at least get one Fox segment speculating about Parkinson's the way we've been led to expect since Hillary Clinton's Parkinson's of 10 years ago at this point in time? Or a Newsmax panel demanding a cognitive test? What are they hiding about the president's health? No, because remember, all that matters is is this our guy or is this their guy? When their guy falls down, it's of course a problem. But when our guy falls down. It's gravity. It's not the end of America. That's all it is. We knew these people were pathetic all along and they are proving it every single day on the bonus show. Today, producer Pat is going to be making a triumphant and courageous return. We will hear about his trip to Colombia, not Columbia University. That's not where he was. The country. What a world. We have a world with countries and cities. And Pat was in the country of Colombia and many other things on today's bonus show. I hope you will join us there. Join pacman.com is the place to sign up. See you then. And I'll be back with a new show, of course, tomorrow.
- [64:46]
Pat
Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.