7/16/25: Trump health goes viral over swollen ankles, top MAGA warns about 2026

Summary

Detailed Summary of "The David Pakman Show" Episode Released on July 16, 2025

Title: Trump health goes viral over swollen ankles, top MAGA warns about 2026
Host: David Pakman
Description: In this episode, David Pakman delves into significant developments within the MAGA movement, scrutinizes President Donald Trump's health concerns, and features an insightful interview with CNN's Jake Tapper discussing his book on President Biden.

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1. Steve Bannon Warns MAGA Movement of Potential Losses in 2026 Elections [00:07 - 01:25]

David Pakman opens the episode by highlighting a concerning statement from Steve Bannon regarding the future of the MAGA movement. Bannon asserts that if the controversial "Epstein files" are not released, Republicans could face a substantial loss of 40 seats in the House of Representatives by 2026.

Notable Quote:

Steve Bannon [00:50]: "For this to go away, you're going to lose 10% of the MAGA movement. If we lose 10% of the MAGA movement right now, we ain't. We're going to lose 40 seats in '26, we're going to lose the president."

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2. Internal Struggles Within MAGA Over the Epstein Files Controversy [01:25 - 16:18]

Pakman elaborates on the internal tensions within the MAGA movement sparked by the ongoing controversy surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. The Department of Justice (DOJ) and the FBI have officially concluded that Epstein died by suicide, dismissing widespread conspiracy theories alleging murder or cover-ups. This revelation has led to a fracturing within the MAGA ranks, with key figures like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino reconsidering their stances.

Pakman emphasizes that the movement, which was largely built on paranoia and specific conspiracy theories, is now confronting the reality that some of its foundational claims may lack substantive evidence. This dissonance is causing significant unrest among the hardline supporters.

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3. President Trump's Health Raises Concerns Amidst Lack of Transparency [16:18 - 28:07]

A significant portion of the episode addresses emerging concerns about President Donald Trump's health. Recent appearances show visibly bruised hands covered with makeup and noticeably swollen ankles, prompting widespread speculation about his well-being. Pakman discusses potential medical explanations, including congestive heart failure, side effects from medications, or chronic venous insufficiency.

Pakman criticizes the White House's lack of transparency regarding Trump's health, drawing parallels to past instances where information was withheld, such as during Trump's hospitalization for COVID-19 in 2023. He stresses the importance of honesty about the health of the nation's leader, especially given the persistent rumors and visual evidence suggesting underlying health issues.

Notable Observations:

• Trump's hands show unexplained bruising, possibly from intravenous treatments.
• Swollen ankles might indicate fluid retention issues, common in various medical conditions.
• The White House maintains that Trump is "healthier than ever," a claim met with widespread skepticism.

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4. Attacks on Senator Adam Schiff Intensify [28:07 - 62:32]

The discussion shifts to President Trump's growing criticism of Senator Adam Schiff. Trump accuses Schiff of being a "scam artist" involved in mortgage fraud, leveraging unfounded claims to delegitimize his political opponent.

Notable Quotes:

David Pakman [28:07]: "Trump is pulling the standard playbook of attacking political opponents with baseless claims..."

Steve Bannon [28:07]: "Adam Schiff is one of the lowest of the low. I would love to see him brought to justice."

Pakman analyzes these attacks as part of a broader strategy by Trump to distract from internal issues within his administration, particularly the fallout from the Epstein files controversy. He characterizes Trump's behavior as indicative of authoritarian tendencies, where leaders undermine their opponents without substantive evidence.

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5. Interview with Jake Tapper on "Original Sin" - Biden's Decline and Media Cover-Up [34:35 - 59:12]

In a featured segment, David Pakman interviews Jake Tapper, CNN anchor and co-author of the book "Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again." The conversation delves into Tapper's motivations for writing the book, primarily addressing why certain significant stories about President Biden were not reported during critical times.

Key Points:

• Timing of Reporting: Tapper explains that most interviews and revelations in his book occurred post-election, limiting the ability to influence the election outcome.

  Notable Quote:

  Jake Tapper [34:35]: "Almost all of the interviews we did for the book were after the election... there was this fear that anything disclosed before would help Donald Trump."

• Biden's Health and Performance: The interview touches on incidents that have raised concerns about President Biden's cognitive abilities, including a notably poor performance in a debate and a subsequent press conference.

• Media Challenges: Tapper discusses the pressures faced by journalists in reporting against powerful political figures, especially within a polarized media environment.

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6. Right-Wing Media's Confusion Over the Epstein Case and Its Implications [66:58 - 71:09]

In a critical analysis, Pakman addresses the confusion and misinformation perpetuated by some segments of the right-wing media regarding the timeline and key figures involved in the Epstein case. He cites an instance where Bill O'Reilly, a prominent conservative commentator, displayed a lack of understanding about when Epstein was arrested and when he died, mistakenly attributing events to the Biden administration instead of the Trump administration.

Implications:

• Rewriting History: This confusion supports a narrative that absolves Trump of responsibility related to the Epstein case, shifting blame toward President Biden.

• Consistent Misinformation: Such errors reinforce MAGA supporters' misconceptions, undermining factual discourse and accountability.

Notable Moment: Pakman highlights O'Reilly's incorrect assertions during an appearance, emphasizing how these misrepresentations fuel conspiracy theories and protect Trump's reputation within certain voter bases.

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7. Conclusion and Ongoing Developments

David Pakman wraps up the episode by reiterating the significance of the Epstein files controversy and its far-reaching implications for both the MAGA movement and the current administration. He underscores the importance of media transparency and accountability in unraveling the complexities of political conspiracies and maintaining democratic integrity.

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Overall Insights:

• The MAGA movement faces internal threats as foundational conspiracy theories are debunked, leading to potential significant losses in future elections.
• President Trump's health remains a topic of concern due to visible signs of potential medical issues and the administration's opaque handling of health disclosures.
• Attacks on political opponents like Senator Adam Schiff are part of a broader strategy to divert attention from internal crises.
• Media figures like Jake Tapper are critically examining the narratives surrounding political leaders, advocating for greater transparency and accountability.
• Misinformation within right-wing media reinforces damaging misconceptions, complicating efforts to address and resolve political controversies effectively.

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This episode of "The David Pakman Show" provides a comprehensive analysis of the intersecting issues within the current political landscape, emphasizing the need for factual reporting and the dangers of internally fragmented movements relying on unverified claims.

Transcript

[David Pakman]

Welcome to the show. Glad you're with me today. Did you see what a top MAGA said about Donald Trump's Republicans in 2026 if he doesn't release the Epstein files, which supposedly both don't exist and do exist, but were made by Obama and Clinton. Steve Bannon says that Republicans will lose 40 seats in the House of Representatives if the Epstein files aren't released. And here is how he said it at the recent Turning Point USA student something or other event.

[Steve Bannon]

It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. This is about who governs us. Right? And that's why it's not going to go away. For this to go away. Can we blow the brake, by the way? Can we blow the brake, guys? For this to go away, you're going to lose 10% of the MAGA movement. If we lose 10% of the MAGA movement right now, we ain't. We're going to lose 40 seats in 26. We're going to lose the president. You don't even have to steal it, which they're going to try to do in 28, because they're going to sit there and they go. They've disheartened the hardest core populous nationals. It's always been who governs us.

[David Pakman]

The idea here is that there is a wing of MAGA that simply will not stand by this movement, will not stand by Trump, will not stand by the MAGA elements of the Republican Party will not stand by their member of the House that represents them if. If the Epstein files aren't released. And in a way, it's kind of fascinating, but the catalyst to all of this is that Trump's own Justice Department, Pam Bondi, for example, Cash, Patel, Dam, Bongino, are shutting down a lot of their very own conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein. Trump's DOJ and FBI concluded that Epstein died by suicide. There was no murder. There's no client list to show you. There's no cover up here. Case closed. Trump doesn't want to hear about it. Pam Bondi wants to move on. And now MAGA world is melting down. Bannon says it could cost you 10% of the base. Dan Bongino is reportedly so furious that he is considering quitting. Deputy Director. As deputy director of the FBI, you've got, you know, people like Laura Loomer saying that Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi needs to be fired. There are reports about all sorts of other people. We've seen the media meltdowns for Megyn Kelly and others. These are Trump's own people, these are his most hardcore allies, and they're turning on him because the conspiracy theories that they built and that they, in fact, structured their movement around, I mean, years of Cash Patel and Dan Bongino going, we got to get the truth about this stuff. Now they're in a position of power to make it happen. And they go, there turns out there was no real truth. We had the truth. It's all exactly as we were told. Which, by the way, maybe the case, but it's too late for that. And meanwhile, Trump really isn't helping. You know, when Trump was asked about Epstein during a Cabinet meeting, he sort of snapped and was like, you're still talking about Epstein. This is unbelievable. In other words, Trump's done with it. Trump wants MAGA World to be done with it, but MAGA World is very much not done with it. And it is. When you start becoming attacked by the monster you created, it's like a paradox, really, of Trump's own doing. A movement built on paranoia, conspiracy, fear of specific scapegoats that you target. And then all of a sudden, you are in the position of being that which you told others to be suspicious of. Hey, this is the MAGA movement. When the people in government tell us that there's nothing going on with the death of Epstein, that's suspicious. We. We shouldn't believe them. That's when Biden was in power. Now Trump's in power. And what's the government telling us you shouldn't be suspicious of the statements, claims, and stories about the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Well, you conditioned your audience to be suspicious of government officials going, there's nothing to see here. And now Trump's going, there's nothing to see here. And Pam Bondi saying, there's nothing to see here. And Cash Patel and Bongino, maybe under duress, we don't know, are saying there's nothing to see here. And even Steve Bannon is now sounding the alarm and saying the most hardcore supporters and populists are disheartened by this. And if they don't show up in 2026, Bannon says that it is over. So the real story for me isn't Epstein. It's, you know, all of the Epstein coverage we've been doing. It's not really about Epstein. Obviously, there's a client list. Epstein had clients. There's no question about that. As far as, you know, the dying by suicide or being murdered, I have no evidence I can point to that it was anything other than a suicide, but it's the MAGA movement and what these claims represent for them and how it's ripping them apart and how it's something to exploit is really the big story. And we are seeing what happens when the well runs dry for the very conspiracy theorists that were feeding us the conspiracy theories. You radicalize your followers to reject official explanations, and now they are rejecting your official explanations. And Trump allies are sounding the alarm. Candace Owens is sounding the alarm. Megyn, Kelly, Tucker, and now Stephen Bannon. It's not Democrats. It's not Biden. It is MAGA itself. And, and you know, we always are in this position of like, what's the distraction from which other thing? The only respite Trump is now getting from the Epstein fiasco is that new Trump health fears have gone viral and the White House isn't telling us what's going on. Let's talk about that. New Trump health fears have absolutely exploded because Donald Trump's bruised hands are now being covered up with very obvious makeup. And he has both ankles notably swollen. Wow. And they don't tell us a damn thing. So let's start here. Okay. First and foremost, you may recall that for a while now, Trump's right hand, at the top of the hand, right, has been bruised, notably bruised and swollen. In new video from the White House just hours ago, you see that Donald Trump is now very obviously covering the bruise with makeup. Makeup that doesn't quite match the color of his skin. Sort of like what he does to his face, quite frankly. And you can see the swollen hand, the makeup, and this bump. The bruise could be from an iv, could be from a large number of things. We're going to talk about that in a moment. Trump's ankles are very swollen. They seem almost wider than his shoe. Speculation is he wearing very strong compression stockings. Is this bilateral edema? What is this? We just don't know. Now, we are left in a position to speculate because, number one, this isn't normal. There's audio, visual audio. The audio doesn't really matter. There's visual evidence of this. And the White House insists that Trump is just so damn healthy, healthy as a horse. Nobody's ever been healthier than Trump. It's incredible. And so we are left to sort of ask the question, what can cause this combination of symptoms? One of the things that keeps coming up online is congestive heart failure. Of course not. Something that the White House has disclosed. You can get peripheral edema due to congestive heart failure. Very common in older folks who are overweight. Fluid builds up in the legs. Right. Gravity pulls it down. Bilateral ankle swelling is a common aspect of it. Possible jugular venous distension, shortness of breath. Right. We don't know. You know, Trump does breathe very heavily. And you can also explain the bruising because Trump's veins are fragile. Could be poor vascular integrity, blood thinners, a whole bunch of different things. Secondly, could this be the result of some medication? Could it be, you know, if you put elderly folks on warfarin or other anticoagulants, also known as blood thinners, that can cause some of this. It causes easy bruising, especially on the hands and the arms, especially after a blood draw or getting an iv. Now, the White House previously said the bruises on Trump's hands are because he's so vigorously and passionately shaking hands with people. I think you can sort of do the math yourself and say to yourself, could you really get a huge bruise on the top of the hand from a handshake? Doesn't really make sense. But easy bruising as a result of blood thinners in an IV spot, for something that hasn't been disclosed, that Trump is getting via iv, certainly a possibility. And then there's also something called chronic venous insufficiency, common in older, overweight, sedentary folks with Trump, which Trump is. And what can happen is basically damaged leg veins aren't returning blood effectively. So that builds up, and you see that lower leg swelling, you can see skin changes, you can see varicose vein. So there's a very long list of other things. This is the more common stuff. If they were transparent, we would know. And instead, Trump's doctor says, this guy is so damn healthy, nobody can believe it. And of course, no, we don't believe it. That's exactly right. We don't believe it. And the bigger picture of all of this is we know they are dishonest about Trump's health while obsessing about Biden's health. Even now that Biden's no longer in office. And we know what's going on with Biden, he's got metastatic prostate cancer. So we go back to the first term of Trump. They've already tried to cover up the state of Trump's health. When Trump had Covid and they flew him by helicopter to Walter Reed, there was dishonesty and deception all over the place. I know this is not new information to many in the audience, but I think it's important to be thorough and remind people who have not seen that segment. We were given one picture of Trump's health when he had Covid and saying we were told that he was brought to Walter Reed simply because he's the president out of an abundance of caution. The real reason we ultimately found out was that doctors were concerned, based on the trajectory of Trump's Covid, that if he waited at home, he might have to be taken to the hospital on a stretcher and that the optics of that would be so disastrous. Trump didn't want it. The people around Trump didn't want it. They said, let's just get him to the hospital early. You might remember once Trump was in the hospital, we had these daily briefings during which we would often hear questions like did Trump receive oxygen? And the answers would be cagey. And they would sort of be like, the president is not currently on oxygen. And we figured out, oh, actually he clearly did get oxygen at one point in time. So we don't have to speculate that they would try to hide Trump's medical conditions because. Because they already did. And now the pictures in the video leave absolutely no doubt. The swollen legs, the bruised and made up hands. By the way, who, who wears hand makeup? Unless you're covering something up, we do need to get the truth because this is the President of the United States after all. Make sure you're subscribed to my YouTube channel. Make sure you're on my substack. Substack. David Pakman Having the right estate planning done. A will, maybe a trust is super important. I recently took care of it myself. It's not the most fun thing to do, but it is very important. And our sponsor Trust and Will makes it really easy. And you can get 10% off at trust and will.com/pacman. It's a straightforward process. They walk you through it. All of the documents are state specific. They are legally valid. They are customized to your needs, your care, wishes or nomination, guardians, final arrangements, power of attorney. You're just making sure your family and loved ones avoid a lengthy and expensive proceeding or that the state ends up deciding what happens to your assets. Trust and wills. Simple step by step processes guide you from start to finish, one question at a time. Save your loved ones time and stress by having your documents in one place with bank level encryption with live customer support available through phone, chat and email. Trust and will is trusted by hundreds of thousands of families and counting. Protect what matters most in just minutes at trust and will.com/pacman and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's trust. A nd will.com/pacman for 10% off the link is in the podcast Notes did you know that 80% of New Year's resolutions fail by February? Lumen is something you can do for your health that's easy to stick to. Our sponsor Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach with a single breath first thing in the morning with Lumen measures your metabolism. It tells you are you burning fat or are you burning carbs? And it'll give you tailored guidance for nutrition workouts, sleep and stress management. No more cookie cutter. One size fits all nutrition plans. Lumen lets you know what is happening in your body in real time and will build a personalized health plan based on that data. Lumen gives you daily macro recommendations based on what's happening with your metabolism. Metabolism so you can really fuel your body with what's best right before a workout. Breathe into Lumen and it'll tell you if you're burning carbs or fat. Lumen will tell you if you need to carb up before a workout for an energy boost or if you're good to go. Get 15% off your lumen by going to lumen.me/pacman that's L U M E N.me pacman for 15% off the link is in the podcast Notes the David Pakman show, thanks to you, continues to be an independent audience funded program. No corporate media infrastructure of multiple editors and producers who say you can't talk about this, you can't talk about that. What about this other concern? The show is simply what I want to talk about on the days I want to talk about it. And that structure is so important to what we do and I have only you to thank for that. The most direct and efficient ways of supporting our work. Join the movement on my web site. Join pacman.com Become a paid subscriber on Substack substack.david pakman.com and remember that if you'd like a membership but the finance aspect of it is a problem, you can request a free membership at David pakman.com/free membership. Donald Trump is increasingly and obviously desperate to bury the Jeffrey Epstein story. The obvious assumption, because they're not being upfront, is that Donald Trump knows he's in the Epstein file, so he's gone back and forth. There are no files. There are files but. But they were made up by Obama and Hillary Clinton and who knows who else.

[Steve Bannon]

Obama.

[David Pakman]

Obama did everything. So here is Donald Trump, as often is the case, asked questions in front of a helicopter and he is asked a really good question. I love questions where Trump is asked to evaluate the motivations of people and he's asked, why do you think your own supporters are so interested in the Epstein story? Here's Trump's answer, leaves a little bit to be desired. You think about the answer to this question, then I'll give you my opinion. Does Trump sound evasive here or does he sound forthcoming and transparent people to move on.

[Jake Tapper]

But I'm curious, why do you think your supporters in particular have been so interested in the Epstein story?

[Steve Bannon]

I don't understand about how it's been here. I don't understand why they would be so interested. He's dead for a long time.

[David Pakman]

He.

[Steve Bannon]

He was never a big factor in terms of life.

[David Pakman]

He was never a big factor in terms of life.

[Steve Bannon]

I don't understand what the interest or what the fascination is. I really don't. And the credible information has been given. Don't forget, we went through years of the Mueller witch hunt and all of the different things.

[David Pakman]

Now, now this is such a critical thing. Why is Trump talking about the Mueller witch hunt? The. This continues to happen where questions are asked of Trump administration officials about the Epstein thing without saying, is it because you're in the files? And one of the first things that Trump and other officials think to do is to either deny Trump's involvement or compare it to something to go after Trump with. The question was, why are your supporters interested in the Epstein files? And Trump goes, you know, we had the Mueller thing. What's Trump saying there? Trump is saying the Mueller thing was something making allegations about me that are untrue and the Epstein thin thing is making allegations about me that are untrue. But the question didn't say, is it because you are in the files? Trump is worried and maybe knows he's in the file. So he goes, it's like the Mueller thing just something else to come after me about. But you're bringing that up. We didn't bring that up.

[Steve Bannon]

Deal dossier, which was all fake. All that information was fake. But I don't understand, understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sorted, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going. I think really only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like, like that going.

[David Pakman]

Well, of course that's not true. It is Trump's own supporters to a degree. It's Bannon, it's Candace Owens, it's Megyn Kelly, it's Tim Pool, it's, you know, the whole lot of Them. Patrick bet David Trump is either pretending or he's ignorant. The reason that people are interested in it is because of what the people in your administration told them. They should believe you told them. When official government sources tell you there's nothing to see here with Epstein, they're lying to you. And now Trump is in power and Trump's government is officially telling his supporters, there's nothing to see here. The suicide was exactly as it was presented. There's no list, there is no documents that we're holding back or that we could be releasing, but we're choosing not to. The monster Trump created is the reason that his base is interested in this. An innocent man would call for full transparency. An innocent man would say, what reason is there not to release everything we have? Especially because Trump is in videos with Jeffrey Epstein. There are a number of ties to Jeffrey Epstein. An innocent man would want the files released to show, I have nothing to do with this. The deflection raises questions. And of course, when you hire people like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, who spent years saying, we're going to get to the truth once Biden's out and Trump is in, we're finally going to learn the truth about the Epstein thing, then they're in power. They go, oh, we knew the truth all along. Yep. The story we told you, it was actually the truth all along. It is Trump and maga why his own followers are interested in the story. Now, one other clip from this helicopter fiasco. Trump was asked, you know, you're claiming that you have these Vietnam and China deals. Are you going to give us any details about that? Trump's kind of like, not really. Do you plan to release more details? Vietnam, China deals?

[Steve Bannon]

Well, I might. I don't think it matters how much you release of the deal. We have a Vietnam deal, and I would say that that deal is being pretty well set. It's pretty well set. Again, that's an opening of their country. They've opened it up. Just so you know, these were closed countries. They were wonderful people, wonderful leaders, very strong, smart leaders. But their countries were closed to us, but our country wasn't close to them. And so I said, you got to open up your country. So we're going to see. But the Vietnam deal, we may open it. I mean, I don't know. I can't tell you. Is it necessary? Yeah, I don't think so.

[David Pakman]

Lutnick says no. Just take his word for it, right, guys? 90 deals in 90 days became one pseudo deal in nearly 120 days. I guess. No. Nearly 100 days so far. And as far as details, of course not. Just take his word for it. Take Lutnick's word for it. These are clearly guys that can be trusted. Right? Right. Who am I trying to convince? There is a smoking gun letter dated February 27, 2025 that proves that the Trump administration had and has an Epstein list. Is it complete? Well, we don't know, but we now know that they are lying. And here's the critical aspect of it. You don't need to speculate. You don't need to email anyone. You don't need to hack into anything. Thanks to Freedom of Information act requests, we have the letter that proves they have way more than they are claiming to have. This is a letter from the office of the Attorney General, meaning Pam Bondi. The letter is signed by Pam Bondi, written to FBI Director Cash Patel. Folks, these are public documents. Okay? Dear Director Patel, before you came into office, I requested the full and complete files related to Jeffrey Epstein. In response to this request, this is the key. I received approximately 200 pages of documents which consisted primarily of flight logs, Epstein's list of contacts, a list of victims names and phone numbers. Okay, they say there is no list. And we suspected that that was semantics because here is Pam Bondi acknowledging before getting additional documents. This is. This is what she already had before getting additional documents. Flight logs which tell you where planes went and who was on the planes. Epstein's list of contacts, which, by the way, is also available. I looked at it. Ivanka Trump is on there. All sorts of people are on there. And a list of the victims names and phone numbers. Damn, that does sound like the Epstein list, which they now claim. What to have. Pam Bondi goes on to say, I repeatedly questioned whether this was the full set of documents responsive to my request and was repeatedly assured by the FBI that we had received the full set of documents. Late yesterday, I learned from a source that the FBI field office in New York was in position possession of thousands of pages of documents related to the investigation and indictment of Epstein. So here Pam Bondi is saying, not only do I have 200 pages of documents which certainly meet the colloquial definition of the Epstein list, she is aware of something that is at least five times larger, right? At least a thousand pages or. And she says thousand, so it actually could be at least 10 times larger or more than what she already has. And now we're supposed to believe there's no list. The FBI had thousands of pages conforming to what we've colloquially know as know of as a list. And Pam Bondi had hundreds of pages of what would be a list. And she goes on to say, despite my repeated requests, the FBI never disclosed the existence of these files. When you and I spoke yesterday, you were just as surprised as I was to learn this new information. By 8am tomorrow, the FBI will deliver the full and complete Epstein files to my office, including all records, documents, audio and video recordings, and materials related to Jeffrey Epstein and his clients. Regardless of how such information was obtained, there will be no withholdings or limitations to my or your access. So there's three important aspects to this letter. Number one, Pam Bondi acknowledges having 200 pages of documents that are certainly a list. The flights, who was on them, Epstein's contacts and victim names, that that's a list. She had it. Now she says she doesn't. The FBI, according to Pam Bondi in this letter, had thousands of pages compared to Pam Bondi's hundreds. Thousands of pages, which the FBI has also said, we don't have anything either. Over the last 10 days, we've heard from the DOJ, we have nothing. And the FBI, we have nothing. So that's lie number two. And then thirdly, it would be interesting to get a definitive answer. Did the FBI comply with the Attorney General's demand that by the following morning, February 28th, the full files be delivered? If they didn't, why were they allowed to get away with that? And if they did, why does Pam Bondi, now, with hundreds of her own files and thousands of additional documents from the FBI, claim that she has nothing? The stuff is happening in plain sight. It's happening in plain sight and Trump is so triggered that he is now going after a sitting senator. It is happening again when Trump is under pressure. Could be political pressure, could be legal pressure, could be public pressure. You can count on two things. Number one, he starts to publicly unravel. And number two, he picks a new enemy, a scapegoat, and tries to drag the enemy down to take attention away from himself. This time, it is Senator Adam Schiff. In an unhinged truth social rant, Donald Trump wrote, and I quote, I have always suspected shifty Adam Schiff was a scam artist. And now I learned that Fannie Mae's Financial Crimes division have concluded that Adam Schiff has engaged in a sustained pattern of possible mortgage fraud. Adam Schiff said that his primary residence was in Maryland. To get a cheaper mortgage and rip off America when he must live in California because he was a congressman from California. I always knew Adam Schiff was a crooked. The fraud began with the refinance of his Maryland property on February, 6, 2009, and continued through multiple transactions until the Maryland property was correctly designated as a second home on October 13, 2020. Mortgage fraud is very serious and crooked. Adam Schiff, now a senator, needs to be brought to justice. And then Trump was asked about this and added, it is time for Schiff to be brought to justice, which of course, any reasonable person interprets as he should be arrested and prosecuted.

[Steve Bannon]

Justice. I would love to see him brought to jail, I think. I'll tell you what, I think. Adam Schiff is one of the lowest of the low. I would love to see him brought to justice. He is a dishonest, crooked guy. I don't know about the individual charge, if that even happens, but Adam is a serious low life.

[David Pakman]

This is not the Department of Justice talking, although Trump might be able to convince Pam Bondi to do something about this. This is not a prosecutor who's looked at evidence. This is certainly not a judge. This is Trump, the guy who has been convicted of 34 felony counts, attacking a sitting U.S. senator and demanding that he be arrested. We really need to interpret this for what it is. So you only need to look at the last 10 days of news to understand what's happening. Trump's panicking over the Epstein file, sort of renewed vigor behind that. He's reeling from the Iran fallout, the internal Republican backlash, and Adam Schiff, who, by the way, helped expose Trump's Ukraine extortion scheme when he was a congressman, now he's a senator, he's, I guess, theoretically a future presidential contender, although I don't know that Adam Schiff has those ambitions. So what does Donald Trump do? He tries to sort of short circuit the news cycle with a conspiracy, throws around criminal accusations with no evidence that he has presented. Obviously, anybody who has done anything wrong should be looked at. We just have no evidence that this is something Adam Schiff has done. And he's once again calling for the arrest or political prosecution of his enemies. This is fascist behavior. Authoritarian leaders attack the press, they attack the courts, they attack political opponents. Trump is three for three. He's done all of it. He has power once again, and he's saying it out loud. So Adam Schiff, whatever he did, I assume mortgages are investigated, right? I mean, if there's evidence, then, then okay, go for it. But Adam Schiff isn't the story here. It's the guy in the White House obsessed with vengeance and desperate to distract from potentially as Steve Bannon put it disastrous midterm defeat in 2026. You know, for weeks now, discussions have focused on Trump's big, beautiful bill and its potential Medicaid cuts. However, a far more dangerous overlooked provision in the bill exists. At ground.news/pacman, you'll discover what MAGA lawmakers quietly included a provision that could block federal judges from enforcing court orders unless a bond is posted. And if this passes, it could render Trump above the law. This is a critical detail. It's largely unknown, and it really exemplifies this flood the zone strategy of the Trump administration. Now this is why Ground News is essential. It really is the best way to uncover buried information by showing you not just the story, but its origins across the political spectrum. You can see bias ratings, credibility scores, coverage timelines and their browser extension also will flag potential bias. When you're on a news site, sort of guiding you to more reliable sources for fact checking, Ground News gives you a smarter and more reliable way to stay informed. I I'm partnering with them to give you 40% off their unlimited vantage plan, which makes it just $5 a month. Visit Ground News slash Pacman, scan the QR code or use the code Pacman in the app to start the link is in the description Most people trying to lose weight focus on diet and exercise, which makes perfect sense. Sometimes habits and behaviors can also play an outsized role. And our sponsor Hypnosio is a self hypnotherapy app designed to help with things like emotional eating, cravings, portion control. If you're working on healthier habits, something like this can help to reinforce the changes you're trying to make. Hypnosio guides you through short hypnotherapy sessions, just a few minutes a day. The idea here is let's bring stress down, let's increase mindfulness around food and just build some longer, longer term consistency. Many users say Hypnosio helps them to pause or reset in a moment where they might reach out for food, out of emotion or out of habit. And it just creates a little bit of space, a little bit of breathing room to make a more intentional choice instead of just following old patterns. So many people have found Hypnosio useful as a way to stay on track, especially when dealing with like yo yo dieting or stress eating. If that sounds familiar to you and you're curious, you can go to David pakman.com/hypnosio and use the code PACMAN15 for 15% off your first plan. The link is in the Description Today I'm going to be speaking with Jake Tapper, CNN anchor, chief Washington correspondent, co author of the book Original S, President Biden's Decline, Its cover Up, and his disastrous choice to run again. Really appreciate your time. You know, more so as a disclaimer to my audience before we start, listen, I know that there are people that are angry with Jake about the book for different reasons. I know some of the questions my audience wants me to ask. And you know, this is not going to be me yelling or scolding Jake the way Megyn Kelly did. You know, we're going to have a conversation here and I understand some of the concerns that my audience has raised and we're sort of going to talk about them. And so to start, I'm almost completely through the book, Jake, and I've reviewed a lot of the interviews you've done. I think the, the primary question that has remained unanswered to many in my audience is given the obviously newsworthy and even decision making worthy nature of much of what's in the book, why did none of this come out from you as you vetted and conducted the research and interviews at a time when maybe it would have been actionable for voters?

[Jake Tapper]

Well, it's a great question. And the simple answer is that almost Alex Thompson, my, my coauthor and I, almost all of the interviews we did for the book were after the election. There was this feeling among Democrats that any acknowledgment, any disclosure of what was going on behind the scenes before the election would only help Donald Trump. And I wish I had known a lot of this, if not all of this as it was happening. Of course, I mean, Alex Thompson and I are, in addition to collaborators in this book, were fiercely competitive journalists with each other and with others. And I mean, I would have loved to have broken any of these stories when they happened, but the, the fear of God had been put into so many Democrats that anything to disclose what was really going on with President Biden would help Donald Trump. And therefore there was this omerta, this silence about what was going on until after the election. And then after the election, we made a list, Alex and I, when we started writing this book. And like literally after the election is when I, the day before the election, I said to him, you and I should work on something. And the day after the election, he and I started putting together the proposal and everything. We made a list of everybody we wanted to talk to. And, you know, and we found it much easier for those to get through to those People with the election over and there was no longer the threat of Donald Trump, it was the reality of Donald Trump. And so people were a lot more willing to talk.

[David Pakman]

So the simple explanation on a timing, from a timing standpoint seems to be you were only told these things after the election was over, and therefore you couldn't possibly have reported on them before you knew them, Correct?

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, entirely. I did not know. Like, for instance, there's the story that was excerpted in the New Yorker that got a lot of attention about Joe Biden, President Biden, not recognizing George Clooney. I didn't know that story until after the election. I mean, it was shocking to me. I would have loved to have broken that story in June 2024 or any of the stories that we have in the book. But people were. Look, even today, people are very reluctant to talk about this stuff because a. It's seen as disloyal still among Democrats to say anything about Joe Biden instead of focusing one's attention on Donald Trump. And there are obvious sensitivities about dealing, about, talking about somebody's health, whoever it is. The sensitivity is about talking about your grandma's health, not you, but, you know, one. Somebody's grandmother's health. I mean, like, these are the most sensitive things that there are in the world to talk about. Mortality, infirmament, et cetera. So that's the simple answer. Almost every single interview we did that's in the book was after the election, and it was. And Alex and I were surprised at how many. Like when we pitched the book. We pitched the book, but we didn't know how much we were going to get until the interviews started. And we were surprised at how much we learned. We thought we knew a little, maybe, but we had no idea, but not in a confirmable way, except for the stuff that had been reported. But then we were just flabbergasted. So, I mean, I think that that's just the honest answer. And I know it's. This has been a criticism for a long time of anybody who is a daily journalist, but also that writes books, Bob Woodward, Maggie Haberman, whoever.

[David Pakman]

That was exactly the example. I was thinking of the Woodward.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, well, the Woodward one, I understand. I mean, like, I'm not here to jump on. On Bob Woodward, but Donald Trump told him in like, January 2020 that they believed that Covid was airborne. Now, I don't know what I assume that Donald Trump was talking to Word. Word only for that book or whatever. I mean, I don't know the deal. I don't know that. I don't know the situation. But yeah, look, I mean, I get that criticism, but I was stunned on January. I'm sorry, on June 27th, the night of the debate, June 27th, 2024. I, like you, like everybody had seen him aging through the years and I'd seen the gaffes and the missteps and the trips and all that, but I, like everybody else, was just as stunned to see how addled he was. President Biden on the debate stage, that was a surprise to so many people. And the reason why it was a surprise is because they had done a pretty good job of hiding. Not that he was getting old and not that he, that there were moments where people didn't know what was going on, but the degree to which he had deteriorated, I think was kept fairly successfully from people. Like people knew he was aging. And that was a concern among voters and it was something that people talked about, especially conservatives. But I don't think anybody have had any idea how bad it could be until that night, at least publicly.

[David Pakman]

I want to go back to June 27, so I do an opinion show up until June 27. My view, which I was very clear about with my audience, was I don't think Biden should have ever run for reelection. Given where we are. I think right now, the calculation is if he gets out, that does more damage than whatever benefit there is to replacing him. That was my opinion up until 7pm on June 27. Right. Or whatever time the debate was. Actually, the debate was late, which is another fact. Yeah. You write about that in the book. That's right.

[Jake Tapper]

9Pm'S late for me right now.

[David Pakman]

I know, me too.

[Jake Tapper]

81 year old.

[David Pakman]

Me too. So after that debate the next morning, even that night, I said to my audience, listen, whatever you, as a follower of a political show believes about Joe Biden right now, my instinct is that what happened tonight, last night, is going to lead to an amount of pressure where he's going to have to get out. And given that, I think there needs to be the most cohesive possible plan, if you're a Democrat who wants to see Donald Trump defeated, to replace him in a way that will bring people in rather than push people away. And my audience was split. There were people who said it wasn't that bad last night. Here are the talking points. There was this sort of painful Newsom appearance, Gavin Newsom, in the days that followed where it was like, yikes, I don't know that this is going to convince anybody. Gavin I don't, I'm not, I'm not really sure about this. And eventually the pressure did become too great. What I'm curious to ask you, as someone who talked after the fact with people about that night, was that night the clear signal to everybody, or mostly everybody, that it was to me, but they couldn't say it yet, or were there genuinely people who thought that wasn't really that bad?

[Jake Tapper]

I think, I think, I mean, it's a great question. There were, it was a multitude of takes. I think there were people who, like, for instance, let's say Biden's top aide Mike Donilon, who would say and argue Joe Biden on his worst day is better than Donald Trump on his best. It doesn't matter X, Y, you know that. And that's just, and that's just it. And it's a choice. And that's one of the reasons why there was an early debate, because the White House had bad polling and they were eager to make it not a referendum on Biden, but a choice between Biden and Trump and Joe Biden and Mike Donnell and others were convinced get the choice out there and Biden will win. That Mike Donnell in the would say he won before with people thinking he was too old. He's going to do it again. So there's that group.

[David Pakman]

Yep.

[Jake Tapper]

And I think there's a little.

[David Pakman]

There'S.

[Jake Tapper]

Some of those people in that group. There is a little delusion about how bad it was because it was really bad. And if you go back and watch it, it was really, really bad. And it was not, you know, this isn't for a lot of people. I mean, this is one of the issues that those, that people in that group have, which is this isn't about, this is about, this is about like a million voters in seven states. Right. I mean, this is about people who voted Obama, Obama, Trump, Biden. You know, I mean, this is about people who split their ticket and, and change vote and like are not, I don't know if it's high information voters is the right term, but people who are not allegiant to a party. And they felt, a lot of those voters felt and a lot of the spin that was coming from the Biden campaign about a focus group that they talked about a lot. They didn't, they wouldn't mention that those, the focus group was almost entirely of voters that had voted against Trump and for Biden before who were still split because that Biden was so bad. So that's, that's one, there were People that were confused. What was that? That was horrible. Oh, they're saying it was a bad night. Okay, well, let's give him an opportunity to. I'm talking about Democratic officials now. Let's give him an opportunity to show that that was just an aberration. And he didn't. And because honestly, he couldn't. That's the bottom line is, like, he didn't have a press conference for, I think, another week, and it was after NATO and.

[David Pakman]

And the press conference was not good.

[Jake Tapper]

No, it wasn't as bad as the debate, but it was not good. He referred to vice President. I think he confused Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. And, you know, first of all, the NATO stuff, it's. He's not on issues that he cares about. He's better than on issues he doesn't. And he really, really cares about NATO. He really, really cares about Ukraine, those issues. He can talk about that better than he can talk about the economy or abortion rights or whatever. And then I think there were people who were in a group who were like, I knew this was going to happen. I mean, I had seen this behind the scenes, and this is horrible. And I suspected it was this bad. And we have some of them on the record in the book, like David Axelrod, who had been talking about this publicly, Dean Phillips, who'd run against him and others. And then there are people who are not Democrats, but also part of the story, like Robert heard, the special counsel who had seen a Biden this bad behind the scenes in October 2023 when he did that interview for the special counsel Report, Annie Linsky and Siobhan Hughes from the Wall Street Journal, who had been reporting on this and trying to break stories about what Biden was like behind the scenes, people who had suspected that this was how bad it could be. And, you know, the truth of the matter is, you know, on Earth 2, that debate goes fine, not great, but fine. And then it's not till the second debate in, like, October where he has that debate. You know what I mean? This was going to happen sooner or later. And the question is, was it going to happen in June or was it going to happen at a town hall in September or whatever? But, I mean, what our reporting shows is not that Joe Biden is unable to speak, unable to give a speech, unable to have a nice exchange with somebody, is that he has these moments like he had at the debate where he really can't form a complete sentence or come together with a coherent thought. And it's not like with anybody, you look like you're a young person. So maybe we're talking about your grandparents, but, like, and I hope your grandparents are alive and well and thriving.

[David Pakman]

But, you know, sadly, Baruch Hashem, they are no longer with us.

[Jake Tapper]

Okay, well, I'm sorry. Neither am I. And so, I mean, my parents are now in their 80s, and, like, yeah, this happens. And people have good days and bad days, and it, you know, it just, it doesn't just, like, go like this. It's just, you know, it's a. It's a chart where good days, bad days, and etc. Etc. And, you know, that's like Joe Biden. And so, I mean, I think. I think that's the situation now. Now, the other. I'm sorry to babble, but, like, the other thing that you bring up is the idea of, like, a contest, and that's what people like Pelosi, Obama and others wanted. Yeah, they wanted some exercise of democracy and voting, whether it was, even if it was delegates voting with some sort of contested primary or like a truncated, contested convention, rather, or a truncated primary system or whatever. But, you know, primaries are. They're not official, like United States government. The parties can make it up. They can do whatever they want. They could say, okay, we have a new nominee now. We're going to have a Northeast, you know, we're going to have the New England primary on this day, and the Southern states on this day. You know, they could, they could have done whatever. But Joe Biden spent more than three weeks before he dropped out, and there went that idea.

[David Pakman]

I want to talk a little bit about sort of a compare and contrast with some of the reporting on Trump. And I'm glad for you to take this on as your personal reporting, cnn, or more broadly, as legacy in corporate media. Sure. I'm seeing significant hesitation to report not on the recklessness of Trump's policies, which I've heard you say in interviews. No, we're reporting on the recklessness of Trump's policies. But things like focus on Trump being unresponsive to questions, as if he doesn't understand them. Last week, he was asked about Alligator Alcatraz, how long will inmates stay stay here? And the question was repeated twice. And Trump goes, I love spending time in Florida. I'm going to be here a lot. And it didn't seem to be an issue of his hearing. It seemed to be an issue of comprehension. Yesterday he's now covering hand bruises with very obvious makeup. And his ankles look very swollen. I mean, they genuinely look significantly swollen. Mixing up pelosi and Nikki Haley appearing disoriented. Why do you think Trump's president now and there's almost more discussion of Biden's health, who is no longer president. What do you think is going on?

[Jake Tapper]

Well, there's a lot of things that you just mentioned in there, and they're all different. I, I can't get in Donald Trump's brain. I don't know exactly what was going on with the Alligator Alley question. From what I saw, it looked like he was just dodging the question, like pretending, like to answer a different question, which really, that's what it looked like to me. Which it doesn't make it any better, but it doesn't make it adamant. It makes it avoiding the question. But I don't know. I don't know what it was in terms of the potential bruises on his hand or whatever the theories are in his ankles. I saw the photos of that. Look, Donald Trump has never been transparent about his health the way that the American people deserve. He was more transparent this last health report than he was in previous ones, and especially when he was running for reelection in 2024. But he doesn't disclose information. And that's one of the points at the end of the book. I know you haven't gotten there yet, but at the end of the book, we talk about what needs to happen. And we talked to a doctor who's a consultant for the White House medical team, and he says that the test, you know, the health report, which is not law, it's just traditional that the doctor, the White House physician, needs to give that to Congress under threat of perjury. I mean, that the American people are owed that. And I think that's one of the things that I hope the Biden lesson. And look, you can't apply it to Trump because you'll never get Congress to go along with it. But why not pass a law requiring some sort of health disclosure for future presidents? So, like, you know, so that it takes the Trump and the Biden out of it and just, I mean, it might be challenged as unconstitutional because of the legislative branch versus the executive or whatever, but there needs to be some disclosure.

[David Pakman]

No, I would love to see that, too, but, I mean, I think you're getting to this. But even if we think about, like today, if you today wanted to do a story where you go, listen, I'm not a doctor, but here's what we see now for two months on Trump's hands. It's very obviously covered with makeup, but what is it? The. Oh, well, I mean, it seems as though it's an, where he's getting an IV for something which of course, hasn't been disclosed. And his hands are bruised and he's covering it up with makeup because it started to get attention that his hands are bruised. I mean, that's the, that's what it, that's the most likely explanation, I think. But I guess what I'm wondering is if you wanted to do that story today on CNN and go, there's a history of lack of transparency. You know, when he was in the hospital with COVID and doctors were asked, is he getting, did he get oxygen? They said he's not on oxygen today. Right.

[Jake Tapper]

There's even, but there's even more than that. There is a whole, an entire trip to Walter Reed that he, that he went on in 2023 that they didn't disclose what it was. I mean, but my question is, could.

[David Pakman]

You tell the story today on CNN if you wanted, or would there be problems at some level of the company?

[Jake Tapper]

I don't think there would be problems. It's just a question of what are the facts and what do we know. And, you know, White House. I mean, the same problem that I faced covering Biden, I would, you know, while Biden was president, I face, until the election at least, I face covering Trump, which is like, people are not sharing information. I think that it's worth asking questions about these things. I'm not reluctant to cover them. I do think that a lot of times people conflate Biden's issues with Trump's issues. And I think a lot of Trump's issues, and this is not to excuse them, but this is just talking to doctors and whatever is have more to do with his personality. And I mean that in the clinical term of personality. I don't mean like, oh, he seems nice enough or whatever. Like, I mean, people talk about, when people talk about what's wrong, in their view, with the president, with President Trump, they're talking about him being narcissistic. They're talking about him being lacking empathy and things like that, that, that are not about cognitive issues. So it's a different wing of the hospital, which is not to say that it shouldn't be covered or it shouldn't be discussed. And in fact, we have discussed it. We discussed it a lot during the first term. But I mean, I think that, and the other part of that is he won with people knowing that that is his personality, for better or for worse. It's not as if I'm not talking about the bruises now or the ankles or whatever, that's a separate issue, but about like the word choice. And sometimes when he seems unsympathetic or sometimes, you know, I mean, I think, I think it was George Conway, who wrote former husband of Kellyanne Conway, who wrote an entire article for the Atlantic. I'd have to go back and check, but something along the lines he was, he was basically saying that he thinks that Donald Trump had like malignant personality disorder or something like that, excuse the paraphrase, but something like that. And he's a whole thing about, you know, the diagnosing, going through diagnostic definitions and such. And that's, you know, that's fair game. But I think that's where Trump's issues lie more. Not on the confusing Nikki Haley and Nancy Pelosi. That's, that's aging or whatever. But, but I'm not, I'm not excusing it. Also, we covered it. You know, we covered it.

[David Pakman]

Last thing I want to ask you about, we saw this successful lawsuit against George STEPHANOPOULOS. We saw 60 Minutes choose to settle rather than fight in court, what seemed like a pretty good case that they didn't really do anything wrong.

[Jake Tapper]

It wasn't 60 Minutes that settled. It was, it was Paramount. Paramount, which owns CBS News, which owns 60. 60 Minutes, would not have the, the team at 60 Minutes.

[David Pakman]

That's fair.

[Jake Tapper]

Would never have done that. And in fact, the president of CBS News and the executive producer of 60 Minutes both left because, at least partly.

[David Pakman]

Because that, that's it. That's a good, that's a good clarification. It seems as though there is starting to be some self censorship as a result of those two successes. And I've recently had meetings with some of these sort of conglomerates about series ideas that I have that wouldn't even be political. And they've basically said to me, you know, just because of your show, we're kind of scared right now of doing anything that could even be remotely seen as political when we are really in a different kind of business to not expose who I'm talk, talking about. Are you seeing some of that self censorship because of the effect of those lawsuits? And I'll just, I'll just leave it that. Are you seeing any of that self censorship? Is it a reasonable concern that it would be going on now?

[Jake Tapper]

I am not seeing it cnn, but I think it is a reasonable concern and I think it predates the Disney settlement and the Paramount settlement, which, and of those, I don't think either of them should have settled. But of the two, the paramount one was egregious. I mean, like all sorts of legal experts said that they thought that Donald Trump had no case.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

And in fact, we pointed out on my show several times that, you know, the edits that he was complaining about that had been done to the 60 Minutes interview, which he depicts falsely every time he describes it. I mean, just for your folks who probably know this already, but she gave a very long answer in Kamala Harris when asked about Gaza and Netanyahu to Bill Whitaker, the 60 Minutes reporter. And when they ran an excerpt of it on Face the Nation on Sunday, they used one little clip of it. And then when they ran the 60 Minutes interview Monday or Tuesday or whenever they ran that special, they used a different excerpt of the same very long, very word salady kind of answer compared to what Fox News did when.

[David Pakman]

One.

[Jake Tapper]

Of their anchors, Rachel Campos Duffy, asked Donald Trump about the Epstein files.

[David Pakman]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

And they ran all they ran on that was like, yes, I would release them. But then his longer answer, which ran on the podcast version of the interview, he backs off that and says, well, maybe I wouldn't release it because there's a lot of fake stuff in there, a lot of people who, you know, didn't do anything, blah, blah, blah. But they didn't run that whole answer. That is now different rules. There are different rules because CBS is public network, public airwaves. So the FCC regulates them. They don't regulate cable like Fox News. But if you're looking for a more egregious example of editing to make somebody look one way or the other, the Fox interview is a much more blatant example. So anyway, I'm blabbing again, but all true, though I haven't seen it. But I do think that we are in an era now of more litigiousness. But this started during the first Trump term or when he, when he started suing companies and a lot of it was thrown out. But there were, there have been just a lot of lawsuits and a lot of judge shopping people filing their lawsuits in Florida, where there are friendlier judges, to the idea of media bias, etc. And so I have seen that. I haven't seen any like, result of it. Nobody said don't do this or don't cover that. But I mean, I do think that that is certainly the background of the media in 2025. But I mean, you know, I cover Jeffrey Epstein every day. And you know, because these files are a pretty big important story and they're obviously causing a lot of consternation for the President among his base. And also I was stunned when they basically said nothing to see here when the Justice Department put out that memo. But if I was that worried, then I wouldn't be touching that.

[David Pakman]

We've been speaking with Jake Tapper. The book is original sin. President Biden's decline its cover up in his disastrous choice to run again. I really appreciate your time. I know you're a busy guy and thanks so much for being here.

[Jake Tapper]

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you.

[David Pakman]

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[Jake Tapper]

How many attorney general briefed you on.

[David Pakman]

The DOJ and FBI review? The findings of that review. The Attorney general brief on what?

[Jake Tapper]

On the, on the DOJ and FBI.

[Steve Bannon]

On what? On what subject?

[Jake Tapper]

Epstein on Epstein.

[David Pakman]

Of the review of the files.

[Steve Bannon]

Attorney General Pam Bondi, a very, very quick briefing.

[Jake Tapper]

Did she tell you what did she.

[David Pakman]

Tell you about the review?

[Jake Tapper]

And specifically, did she tell you at.

[David Pakman]

All that your name appeared in the file?

[Steve Bannon]

No, no. She's, she's given us just a very quick, brief attention. And in terms of the credibility of the different things that they've seen, and I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey, they were made up by Obama, they were made up by the Biden, you know, and we went through years of that with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.

[David Pakman]

You really have to zoom out here. Okay. Trump is acknowledging he's been briefed. So, number one, he's saying, I was brief on the Epstein files. Very quick briefing. But then he says, the documents were made up by Comey, Obama and Biden. This is a really strong indicator that he's covering something up. Now, what he's covering up, we are left to speculate. The obvious speculation is he's in the files and they would be very bad for that to get out. Is the argument that Epstein didn't do any of the stuff he's been accused of. Like when he says the files are made up, you really have to ask yourself, what does that mean? Are the files made up in that Epstein didn't really do any of this stuff. He didn't have the flight logs, he didn't have clients, he didn't have victims. Is that what they mean by made up? Probably not. Or is what Trump is claiming is made up? Is the list of clients only, which include potentially Trump and some of his friends like you. Sometimes we hear this and they go, oh, it's fake news. It's made up. But you really have to ask yourself what you mean by that, because Ghislaine Maxwell is in jail right now. So is she in jail over made up documents? What exactly is it that is made up? And if you interpret this even charitably, what this means is Trump's panicking that that's all it really means. What do you even mean made up? The whole thing made up or your name being in there or just some of the victims or some of the perpetrators or the flight? What's made up? What's fake? And by the way, Comey, why on earth would Comey have anything to do with it? But that's a different question. Trump was also asked another foreign policy question. Why are you giving Putin 50 days on these tariffs? Why does he get 50 days before you put him in place?

[Steve Bannon]

Mr. Putin, 50 additional days to prosecute this war against. Oh, I don't think 50 days is very long. And it could be sooner than that. I don't think 50 days is very long. You should have asked that same question to Biden. Why did he get us into this war? You should ask that question. Yeah, and what did he tell you? Why did he get us into this war? You know why he got us in? Because he's a dummy, that's why. And you don't. And you don't cover it. Right, but you should be asking that question to Biden. Why did he get us into this war?

[David Pakman]

He should be asking Biden, who is no longer president, questions when it is Trump saying, I'm going to tariff Russia, Vlad's getting tariffed in 50 days. Let me give you the real answer. Trump is setting this up to let Putin do whatever he wants for 49 and a half days and then say, we're ready to come to the table and like a miracle, there's going to be no tariffs on Russia. Because Putin will have gotten on the phone with Trump and Trump will go, no, listen, he called me, he said very strongly he wants to avoid the tariffs. He's going to negotiate with me in good faith. Whatever missile attacks that are the topic of the day that Trump doesn't like will have stopped. You can trust Vlad about that. That's why. That's why he's giving Vladimir Putin 50 days. He just doesn't want to admit it. Trump, within 20 seconds goes from we had very little inflation to we had no inflation. And of course, these are two very different things.

[Steve Bannon]

Using Texas, sir, can you believe your hair?

[David Pakman]

For inflation to increase last month, do.

[Steve Bannon]

You think they had any? Well, we had very little inflation. I don't know. Who do you work for today? What? USA Today. Well, they wrote me a beautiful article the other day, so I can't get angry at you. USA Today just wrote a very good article about me. What's that all about?

[David Pakman]

Remember, Trump's currency is loyalty and flattery, and he's making it clear, so I.

[Steve Bannon]

Can'T get angry at you. On Texas, there was very little inflation. As you know, the numbers were very good, very much inside the margin. So we've had no inflation. All we have is we're making a fortune.

[David Pakman]

Do you notice that? We had very little inflation. We've had no inflation. The reality is, let's be honest about it, we don't need to lie, right? We were told prices would come down, but inflation's still positive. Inflation is between 2 and 3. Not a concerning number. It wasn't a concerning number when Biden was president. It's not a concerning number when Trump is president. But we got to be honest, prices continue to go up if the, if inflation is more than zero, prices are going up. Maybe, maybe not a lot, but prices are going up. The promise was prices would go down, and Trump was not able to achieve that. On aoc, Trump goes, you know, she's low iq, and I passed an IQ test. But of course, Trump didn't pass an IQ test. He passed a brain injury test. Now, Trump, Trump may not actually say IQ test, but look at how he's conflating the two things here.

[Steve Bannon]

And, you know, aoc, look, I think she's very nice, but she's very low iq. And we really don't need low iq. Between her and Crockett, we're going to give them both an IQ test to see who comes out best. Now, I took my test, I took a real test, and Walter Reed Medical center, and I aced it. I got every one of all those questions right? Now it's time for them to take a test anyway. Have a good time.

[David Pakman]

So understand what Trump is complaining about. Trump's going, aoc has low iq. She should be tested. By the way, I took a test and I passed the test. Of course, Trump took a brain injury test, which doesn't really measure aptitude for being in elected office or being a center of power in the country. Finally, to me, this sounds like a warning to Dan Bongino. Trump is asked, do you still have confidence in him, his FBI deputy director? And Trump is only like, I like it.

[Steve Bannon]

I like Dan Bonjino.

[David Pakman]

Yeah, there you go. I like him. I like him and I have confidence in him. Is not exactly the same thing. And of course, reports are that Bongino is considering quitting because he doesn't like what's going on with the Epstein files. We'll see where it lands. Disastrous, disastrous answers. Did you see how confused Bill O'Reilly was about what year it is last night? This is, this is a real. What the F Moment, but it has major political implications. Let me explain this. Last night on News Nation, Bill O'Reilly, who's a frequent guest on Leland Vittert show, where I've been a guest, also, Bill O'Reilly, as you can tell in this image, he looks confused. He was completely confused about when Jeffrey Epstein was arrested, when he died, who was president at the time and who was attorney general at the time. In fact, as Leland Vitter explains to Bill O'Reilly here, Epstein was arrested when Trump was president. He died in jail when Trump was president. Merrick Garland was not the attorney general when all of this happened. And at one point, Bill O'Reilly becomes so visibly confused that he just goes silent. He has no idea what to say. I haven't seen anything like this in a long time. How is he convicted?

[Jake Tapper]

How do you convince a guy who's dead? He's convicted in, I believe.

[David Pakman]

Okay.

[Jake Tapper]

Under Merrick Garland's Justice Department, that could be. Am I wrong on that? I don't think so. And he then he was incarcerated and then he committed suicide. Okay. The suicide thing is bull. Whether you.

[David Pakman]

I think this is important, Bill. I think this is important. He was arrested in 2019 and he committed suicide in 2019. He died August 10th of 2019.

[Jake Tapper]

So the Biden administration was not involved.

[David Pakman]

In a conviction or a trial of him. They were in the of his Madam of Elaine, Matt.

[Steve Bannon]

And that's a, that's a good point of clarification.

[Jake Tapper]

But he was arrested and indicted under Merrick Garland. No, under Trump, who had all under information.

[David Pakman]

Under Epstein was arrested, indicted and committed suicide. Under Trump in 2019, Trump was president. Merrick Garland was not the attorney general.

[Jake Tapper]

Oh, okay. What?

[David Pakman]

Oh, I've never seen anything like this. The deer in the headlights. So listen, O'Reilly has no idea what's going on. Fine. We have no idea whether O'Reilly is having a cognitive issue that he just forget that he never know the facts. There is a critical and consequential aspect to this. A whole bunch of the theorizing and the blame game and the defenses that are happening of Donald Trump right now around the Epstein fiasco are based on people who either don't realize or don't remember or don't care that it was Trump who was president when Epstein was first arrested. It was Trump who was president when Epstein died in custody. When you watch Bill O'Reilly bumble through the timeline, it's like watching the right wing media ecosystem in a microcosm, either completely confused or pretending to be. Because this is not just a gaffe. This is the foundation of an effort to rewrite history. When you look at the defenses and the what about ism from the maga, right? It only makes sense if you mistakenly believe that Biden was in charge when Epstein was arrested and later died in custody. Think about it. They say things like why didn't Biden do anything? Or how come Merrick Garland didn't go after Epstein's network? Which would be relevant questions if it had happened under Biden. But it didn't. Leland Vittered is right. Epstein was arrested in 2019. He died in August of 2019. Trump was the president. It was Bill Barr who was the attorney general, not Garland. They love to say if there was something here involving Trump, Garland would have released it in 2019. But Bill Barr was the attorney general in 2019. What does Merrick Garland have to do with it? So this is not a random error, this confused timeline. This is the scaffolding on which they've built an entire alternate reality where Trump bears no responsibility and all the failures and conspiracy theories get pinned on Biden. But for that to work, you've got to forget who was in power when it all went down. And that is exactly what O'Reilly demonstrates, a kind of politically convenient amnesia that helps keep Trump's hands clean in the public narrative. So O'Reilly, maybe he's just confused, but it is this misunderstanding who was in charge when all of that went down that has fueled so much of the nonsense that we've been hearing on the bonus show today. Republicans in Congress are now shifting to backing Ukraine. Why? Because Trump's doing it. They just do whatever Trump does. Number two, Josh Hawley has introduced a bill to cancel Medicaid cuts that he just voted for. What? And Mike Waltz is now blaming the signal gate fiasco on Biden. You've got to hear how he's coming up with this one. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. You can sign up@join pacman.com and remember that you can have a daily news only mini podcast of the show emailed to you in the morning if you get on my substack newsletter substack.david pakman.com It's a three minute preview of everything on the show. Just the Facts through our substack substack.davidpakman.com I'll see you on the bonus show. I'll be back tomorrow.