← The David Pakman Show
The David Pakman Show
7/22/25: Epstein panic grows as new deadline closes in
01:06:13
-- On the Show: -- Nick Maggiulli, author and COO for Ritholtz Wealth Management, joins David to discuss his new book "The Wealth Ladder: Proven Strategies for Every Step of Your Financial Life." Get the book here: -- House Republicans abruptly...
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- [00:00]
David Pakman
All right, welcome everybody. We start today in the House of Representatives. Last night, Republicans in the House of Representatives shut down the House to protect Donald Trump from potential Jeffrey Epstein fallout. I want to call your attention to when the right just couldn't stop screaming, release the list. They're all on video, they're all on audio recordings doing it. Every MAGA influencer said the Epstein client list must be released. We need justice. We must vow to expose the deep state. And it's all about protecting children, which is post partizan. And it turns out all of that stuff was only maybe true until Donald Trump's name might be on that list. Until the people around Donald Trump back in power think it might not be so good for that list to be released. And now they have gone either completely silent or even worse, they are part of trying to shut everything down to hide the documents. And now they have shut down Congress to stop the vote. Here's what happened. On Monday night, House Democrats were set to force a vote to release the Epstein files, the same vote MAGA demanded. For years it had bipartisan support. Republican Thomas Massie co sponsored it. But suddenly MAGA Mike Johnson shuts the whole thing down. He doesn't figuratively shut it down. He recesses the House, cancels legislative business and says, we are done here. And all of it is to avoid the political risk that the vote passes and Trump's name is on the list. And Republicans screw Trump. Trump personally asked House Republicans to kill it. He said of his own supporters, you were weaklings for pushing the Epstein state stuff. You've been duped. There are stupid people. And all of it has now led to many of his own loyalists pretending that there is no such list, while other loyalists have said, I'm not falling for this. So you've got a mix. You've got people like Charlie Kirk who are remaining completely loyal. You've got people like Tim Pool, for example, or Tucker Carlson who have said, we are not going to just shut up because all of a sudden Trump says we don't need to worry about this thing. The problem is that there are loyalists, influencers and right wing MAGA creators who really built the following off of we are pushing for the release of the Epstein list. So they can't really now do a 180 without potentially suffering themselves. But the goalposts have been moved, you know, onto another planet. And we have to acknowledge that we knew this, of course, but they tried to have the plausible deniability to say, we just care so much about children. They cared so much about children when they believed they had something to exploit that would be used to attack Democrats and to prop up Trump and MAGA as the defenders of children who would go to the ends of the earth to, to expose anybody doing wrong to children. But now it's their guy and it's either old news or Congress needs to go and take a vacation or we've got to shut down the House to stop a vote on releasing information about child sex trafficking, which they claimed was a post partizan first principle value near and dear to their hearts. So this is the pattern that this is what we continue to see. Trump gets we're for law and order. Trump gets indicted. Republicans say we've got to defund the Department of Justice. Trump's name shows up in the Epstein files or at least potentially or is believed to be there. They shut down the House. Trump's policies backfire on his own base. Well, then they gaslight the country and they say it's fake news and you can't believe what you're hearing or what you're seeing. We, you know, I'm often critical of political parties and I've said, as someone who has never been a Democrat, I think Democrats are less bad than Republicans on some issues. There are important differences on other issues. It's, you know, you look at what happened with, with Biden's bad idea reelection of 2024 and you really investigated. And, you know, I was even at the White House and I saw some of it firsthand that matches up with what's been written. And you say, man, is this a party that has the best interests of the country in mind? Really? I just don't know. But there are differences between Democrats and Republicans. I can't even really say that the Republican Party is a political party anymore. It's sort of like an alibi factory. It's just become a human shield, really, for one guy, Donald Trump. And they have become Republicans have what they once claimed to fight against. So the next time you hear release the list, ask them, why did you run from the vote? Why did you shut down the House? Who are you really protecting? Because if the highest value really was protecting kids, everything, everything would have gone completely differently. Here it seems that the Trump administration is preparing to chicken out once again on tariffs. You might remember that 90 deals in 90 days expired on July 9th. Now, a couple of weeks ago, and then we got a new deadline. The new deadline is August 1st. First August 1st is now looking increasingly like a suggestion, not really a deadline, because we know that when things get Real Donald Trump gets very scared. Scott Besant was asked on CNBC, is August 1st a firm deadline or might it be extended? And Sycophant in Chief Scott Bessant said, well, it sort of depends on what Donald Trump wants to do. It's always the same thing. When the new deadline is placed, it's hard and fast. And then as we approach it, it's really all up to the president. Of course, here's Scott Besant explaining it. Way more brown nosing Lee than I ever could. Mr. Secretary, a couple of quick questions. First of all, I realize this is entirely up to the president to decide this, but do you think it's possible that the deadline for tariffs could be extended for countries where you feel like there are productive talks?
- [07:03]
Scott Bessant
Again, Becky, we'll see what the president wants to do. But again, if we somehow boomerang back to the August 1st tariffs, I would think that a higher tariff level will put more pressure on those countries to come with better agreements. We just reached an agreement with Indonesia and I saw five turns of their offers and this started several months ago. I thought their first offer was very good. They came back, the offerage kept getting better and better and we ended up with a fantastic trade agreement. I think there was something, and don't quote me here, but I think there are 11,000 lines of tariffs that got taken out, including non tariff barriers. We have a 19% tariff on them. They have zero tariffs on us, and they are going to do a massive push purchase of agriculture and Boeing airplanes. So that's what a good trade deal looks like.
- [08:10]
David Pakman
But let me translate. Okay. Because the question really was, you know, these people are really good at answering questions that weren't asked. The question is how firm and hard is the August 1st deadline? And the translation from Besson is, well, we're kind of laying the groundwork to walk it back again because Donald Trump always talks big. But as soon as there's a flinch from Wall street or from Republicans, Trump folds like a bad poker hand. It's like he's got seven to off suit and he's just getting out. By the way, I don't know that I even mentioned this. I sat at the next table over from Scott Bessant at dinner. Last time I was in D.C. i went over and had dinner with a friend. This was just a couple of weeks ago. I had dinner at Kaleo. Great restaurant. Many wait staff who are huge fans of the David Pakman show shout out to them, by the way. And I looked around and at the next table over there's a group of like maybe eight or ten guys and I do a double take and Scott Besant is there. No one's noticing that he's there, he's wearing a suit, but everybody else at the table is sort of wearing like, you know, they're kind of like lumberjack wearing Carhartt type clothing. Even though it was very hot in D.C. that day, not the type of thing you would normally see there. And Bessant just sat there and, you know, ate his calamari and didn't really say much. It was a very unusual thing where I was left wondering what group is this guy even with. But regardless, no hubbub, no security around. They were probably outside, who knows? Totally irrelevant anecdote. It just remind me, I don't know that I mentioned that. So let's get back to Besson's CNBC appearance. The topic comes up of the economic sophistication of different presidents. And this is just sort of funny. Besson takes the opportunity to say, you know, Obama, he was not really as economically sophisticated as Donald Trump. Donald Trump, who still doesn't know who pays the tariffs.
- [10:14]
Joe
I've known the president a long time and he always asks people for their opinion on things. I admit I don't think it, I don't think that it would be criticism if he, if he were to acknowledge that there would be criticism if he were to acknowledge that. He asked you what about firing Jay Powell and you gave him your comments and how much of this story is real? Is it in between? And I'm talking about the notion that you urged him not to fight fire Jay Powell. And he actually is, obviously he's the president, he can do what he wants. But did you have a conversation?
- [10:50]
Scott Bessant
Well, you know, Joe, I think the problem with stories like this is I'm not sure who the leaker was. But the problem with leakers is they only have partial information. And I think the other problem too is that newspapers like the Wall Street Journal are not used to a high functioning executive process president. They are used to perhaps President Biden, perhaps President Obama, who was not as economically sophisticated as President Trump.
- [11:19]
David Pakman
That's right, Obama wasn't as economically sophisticated as Trump. But Trump once called his then national security adviser Michael Flynn at 3am to say, is a strong dollar or a weak dollar better for me and better for the country? And it's the guy who has spent a decade saying that when you put a tariff on China, China pays for the tariff rather than the importing countries. That's what we are supposed to believe. And on the other hand, President Obama's sort of like calm competence is economic ignorance. And we are to believe that Trump's erratic sort of TV brained policymaking is just genius. So bottom line, Trump's pretending, preparing rather to blink again because tariffs get headlines, but they're not so good when it actually comes to governing. They're not so good for the reelection of Republicans in Congress. As we approach the midterm elections, if inflation goes up and markets tank and voters start noticing everything's costing more. So it's the same routine. You threaten a policy that if you're Trump, you don't understand, you realize all of a sudden, damn, this could hurt me politically. And then you blame someone else, you back out, you say, well, we're being patient. Now the only caveat here is hours later Bessant appeared on Fox and he said they are ready to announce a rash of trade deals very soon. And it wouldn't shock me to see people get a rash from how irritating this whole back and forth game is.
- [12:53]
Scott Bessant
And I can tell you we're about to announce a rash of trade deals in the coming days. And a lot of these trade deals are to going, going to include substantial investments in the U.S. whether it, whether it's autos, semiconductors and pharmaceuticals.
- [13:11]
Hunter Biden
Yeah, well, you know, you've said that.
- [13:13]
Becky
The administration is not rushing these trade.
- [13:15]
David Pakman
Deals and that is all right. So anyway, a rash of trade deals is coming very soon. I'll be totally honest with you. I do think at some point there are going to be a bunch of trade deals. I don't think it's going to be 90. I don't believe they will be as favorable to the United States as Trump and Besson have been making it out to be. But they've missed a bunch of deadlines already. At some point you're going to get some deals. Just remember to keep them honest by evaluating them based on what they promised. So if they get 18 trade deals in 150 days, that's not 90 deals in 90 days. And so they are going to try to snow you. And it's important that we remember the promises that they made. I hope that you are subscribed to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/the David Pakman Show. This is such a critical time for independent media. Shows are getting canceled left and right. There's political pressure, there's firings, there's lawsuits. The best defense for us is the biggest possible engaged audience. So that it, if they do come after us or it could be anybody else in the space. We are as best equipped as possible to try to beat that back. We'll take a quick break and continue. Are you feeling stuck in your job? Many people are, and true career growth does require some strategic thinking, and that's where Strawberry.me comes in. Our sponsor, Strawberry Me is a platform that will connect you with certified personal coaches specializing in career growth. If you're planning your next move, transitioning fields. If you want to lead more effectively, they can help. This is not therapy. This is not bogus generic advice. These are certified trained professionals who work with you to create a personalized plan that aligns with your goals and your values. You can clarify your challenges, build a strategy, and maybe most importantly, they'll hold you accountable every step of the way. So if you're ready for the next step, visit Strawberry Me Slash Pacman. There's a short quiz. It'll match you with the right coach. Sessions are virtual, flexible and also designed to work with your schedule. So stop guessing and start growing. Go to Strawberry Me Slash Pacman to get started that Strawberry Me Slash Pacman the link is in the podcast Notes the David Pakman show is an audience supported program. We don't get Russian influencer money. We don't get DNC money. We don't get Soros money. These are sort of the allegations that are hurled our way. This program is it's not a secret. The bosses really are the folks like you who pay a few bucks a month or make a yearly payment and support our program. I encourage you to sign up one of two ways or both. Become a member at join packman.com you'll get extra audio, visual content like the bonus show. Become a paid substack subscriber@substack. David pakman dotcom. You'll get extra written content. We also do a monthly members only Q and A which went out yesterday where paid Substack subscribers can ask me questions which I will then answer or be a Gold member. Forget Trump's Gold Card. A Gold member of the David Pakman show, meaning you have both a website membership and a substack paid subscription. Finally, if you want to request a free membership, go to David pakman.com/free membership. Hunter Biden interviewed with Andrew Callahan and the interview has triggered a complete and total MAGA meltdown. How dare Hunter Biden hurl expletives at members of the Trump administration. How dare Hunter Biden say F this and F that about the Trump administration. We're going to look at some clips. I really Went back and forth about whether to even mention this next thing. And, and I do think that I need to say something about it. Many of you know that Hunter Biden has a history of substance use issues, illicit drugs as they are known. There is rampant speculation and immediate speculation because of Hunter's demeanor in this interview that he is, quote, on something likely and upper, not a downer. I mention that not because I am making that assertion. I think it's one of these things where if I don't mention it and a whole bunch of people watch this clip and watch me discuss and analyze it and they go, he seems, he seems sort of hopped up. How did you not mention that, David? I'm mentioning the fact that there are people speculating about it, but I have absolutely no evidence that that is going on. So let's just. I'll couch it that way as we watch these videos, as we listen to them. Interestingly, regardless of the speculation about Hunter and substances, he went off on Democrats who benefited from Joe Biden and Barack Obama and used that selfishly and cynically. Let's listen to what he had to say. A very interesting opinions, but fuck him.
- [18:43]
Hunter Biden
Fuck him. Fuck him and everybody around him or not to be fucking nice. Number one, I agree with Quentin Tarantino. George Clooney is not a fucking actor. He is a fucking like, I don't know what he is. He, he, he's a brand. And by the way, and God bless him, you know what, he supposedly treats his friends really well, you know what I mean? Buys them things and he's got a really great place in Lake Como and he's great friends with Barack Obama. Fuck you. What do you have to do with fucking anything? Why do I have to fucking listen to you? What right do you have to step on a man who's given 52 years of his fucking life to the service of this country and decide that you, George Clooney, are going to take out basically a full page ad in the New York Times to me and James Carville, who hasn't run a race in 40 years, and David Axelrod, who had one success in his political life and that was Barack Obama. And that was because of Barack Obama, not because of David Axelrod and David Plouff and all of these guys in the pod Save America guys who were junior speech writers in, you know, on Barack Obama's Senate staff who've been dining out on the relationship with him for years, making millions of dollars. The Anita Duns of the world who's made 40, $50 million off of the Democratic Party. They're all going to insert their judgment over a man who has figured out, unlike anybody else, how to get elected to the United States Senate over seven times, how to pass more legislation than any president in history, how to have a better midterm election than anybody in history, and how to garner more votes than any president that has ever won. And they're going to replace that their judgment for. For his.
- [20:17]
Becky
Not to mention.
- [20:18]
Hunter Biden
Who's Jake Tapper's audience?
- [20:20]
David Pakman
Jake Hamah or something?
- [20:22]
Hunter Biden
I don't know. Well, I don't know. For real though, I don't even think it's your mom anymore. By the, by the numbers, what influence does Jake Tapper have over anything? He has the smallest audience on cable news. And beyond that, I think that the book is right now on Amazon that he put out. I mean, his ratings just went to. After he put the book out, you know, they did it.
- [20:40]
David Pakman
So a lot of understandable anger from Hunter Biden at people who he feels did his dad wrong. But not just anger aimed at Democrats or the left or the media. Here is Hunter Biden calling out Trump's targeting of immigrants.
- [20:57]
Hunter Biden
All these Democrats say you have to talk about and realize that people are really upset about illegal immigration. F ck you. How do you think your hotel room gets cleaned? How do you think you got food on your table? Who do you think washes your dishes? Who do you think does your fucking garden? Who do you think is here by the fucking sheer fucking just grit and will that they figured out a way to get here because they thought that they could give themselves and their family a better chance. And he's somehow convinced all of us that these people are the fucking criminals. White men in America are 45 more times likely to commit a fucking violent crime than an immigrant. And the media says, well, you got David Axelrod and you know, Rahm fucking Emanuel. So fucking smart. Rahm Emanuel is that we gotta understand that these people are really mad and we gotta appeal to these white voters. Rom the only people that fucking appealed to those fucking white voters was Joe Biden. 81 years old and he got 81 million votes. And he did because. Not because he appealed appease their Trumpian sense, but because he challenged it. And he said, you can be an 81 year old Catholic from Scranton that doesn't understand it, but still has empathy for transgender people and immigrants. Then nobody said, oh, Joe Biden's going to turn us into a socialist state, no matter how much they said it. But these guys think that we need to run away from all values in order for us to lead. I say you, how are we getting those people back from El Salvador?
- [22:26]
David Pakman
Be you know, I have to tell you that the delivery is one that might not be everybody's cup of tea, but this level of anger is actually justified given everything that has gone on and is going on that I sympathize with very much. Hunter Biden weighed in on Stephen Miller. This was sort of funny moment.
- [22:50]
Hunter Biden
I don't know anyone personally that if you took Stephen Miller isolated and you played a clip of the things that he says every day we arrest another.
- [22:59]
Becky
Alien they let into this country who raped a child, who beat a woman.
- [23:04]
David Pakman
Quote, all the kinky haired, swarthy skinned, long despised phantoms, all the teeming ants toiling for the white man's comfort and.
- [23:13]
Hunter Biden
His little physical demeanor and not be able to say there's something up about that. However, how do you identify and change the mind of someone who is so ignorant that they cannot discern between a fact and an outright lie?
- [23:35]
David Pakman
That is a topic in the echo machine, right? The way I wrote about it in my book, which is back here, and the way Hunter presents it, without a doubt, are two different styles. But we're kind of getting at the same point, which was so interesting about this interview, that the delivery and the tone and the erratic nature of it was. Was notable. And also a lot of the things Hunter was saying really do need to be said. Here he is weighing in on dictators.
- [24:01]
Hunter Biden
These guys think that we need to run away from all values in order for us to lead. I say, f ck you. How are we getting those people back from fucking El Salvador? Because I'll tell you what, if I became president in two years from now or four years from now or three years from now, I would pick up the phone and call the fucking president of El Salvador and say, you either fucking send them back or I'm going to fudgeing invade. It's a fucking crime what they're doing. He's a fucking dictator thug.
- [24:29]
Becky
Bukele or Trump?
- [24:30]
David Pakman
Both. Both. Both Bukele and Trump. And then finally, Hunter does go scorched earth, so specifically on Donald Trump too.
- [24:38]
Hunter Biden
Meanwhile, these motherfuckers with Trump mobile, we're.
- [24:41]
Becky
Going to be introducing an entire package of products.
- [24:44]
Hunter Biden
They're selling gold telephones and sneakers and $2 billion investments in golf courses and selling tickets to the White House for investment into their meme coin.
- [24:54]
Becky
Overnight, President Trump returning to the White House after a black tie gala for.
- [24:58]
David Pakman
The biggest buyers of the Trump crypto.
- [25:00]
Hunter Biden
Coin The Qataris give him a jet and the, The Emiratis put $2 billion into their cryptocurrency and the Saudis are going to build a tower. And I mean, by the way, that's just what we see. And I even hate mentioning my name in that because either I am the biggest fucking moron on the face of the earth or like, what the fuck are we talking about? Like, what is Fox News talking about? Anybody that mentions my name in, in, in Crime Family, in the same, I'm like, like, like what are you talking about? Like, if you believe the worst possible thing that they've ever said about me, what they are openly doing, they're openly doing and nobody's batting an eye. Don Jr. Is opening a club called the Executive Club in Georgetown in which it is promised that you will be able to rub shoulders at the cost of a $500,000 initiation fee. The $500,000 membership fee would make it the most expensive private membership club in the country after Mar a Lago, to join the club with people and decision makers in the cabinet of his father. All right, so now the launch party.
- [26:07]
David Pakman
This was a fascinating interview, number one, because there are people who never want to hear from Biden's at all ever again. And to see Hunter come out and actually to take some pretty good shots at the Democratic Party and certainly at Trump, I thought was interesting to see the way that this has triggered maga, who are just coming out and essentially just assailing the character of Hunter, ignoring the substance of what he is saying. You know, one of the large themes of the response to this interview that Hunter Biden did has been who would listen to a cracked out whatever. But that doesn't really address the substance of what Hunter is saying. And Hunter's critiques of the Democratic sort of operating status quo hit a lot of areas of overlap with my views and certainly his critique of what's going on with Trump and the hangers on and the grifting deal with the substance of what he's saying. And MAGA is so decrepit and corrupt at its core that there really is no arguing with the substance of what Hunter said. So I found the interview extraordinarily interesting. I encourage you to check it out and definitely let me, let me know your thoughts about it. Predictably, Donald Trump is now setting up to throw his FBI director Cash Patel under the bus to avoid responsibility for the release of the Epstein files. Also, Pam Bondi, the Attorney General may not be immune to collateral fire, for lack of a better term. So Let me explain what's going on. Last week, Donald Trump said, I have directed the FBI and the DOJ to release pertinent Epstein documents from grand jury testimony. That's extraordinarily limited. We now are getting questions about why hasn't that happened and why not call for a release really, of everything? And what we can see from Caroline Levitt's answer here, as the White House press secretary for Donald Trump, she speaks for the President. She is signaling, we are going to throw everybody else under the bus. And Levitt essentially argues Trump asked for it. It's at the end of the day, up to the DOJ and the FBI. If you don't get it, then it is their fault, not Donald Trump's. This is the setup they're doing. The President just ordered the FBI to release the full Epstein files. Just get it all out there. The President has said if the Department of Justice and the FBI want to move forward with release of saying any further credible evidence, they should do so as to why they have or have not or will. You should ask the FBI about that. Boom. They have now made it the FBI's problem. They have now made it the DOJ's problem. And I should add also that the language Caroline is using is not. It's. It's specifically chosen if the FBI wants to move forward with releasing any credible evidence. Right. Trump said, pertinent grand jury testimony, credible evidence. At any point, the DOJ or FBI could go, we have a bunch of files. We've determined that they're not credible, so we're not going to release them. So this is the theme here. Ask the FBI, ask the doj. Here's another sort of question on the same issue. There are reports that President Trump or the FBI agent is going through the FC files, were told to flag President Trump's name. If it came up, is that something the President was aware of or something that he directed those agents for the Department of Justice to do? I don't believe that's something the White House was aware of. You'd have to ask the FBI, and of course, that is a complete and total lie. We now have widespread reporting that there was an agreement, there was a request, there was a system in place where the Trump White House wants to be told, are you seeing documents that are linking Epstein and Trump? So you can see the posturing sort of changing. Initially it was Trump angry. Pam Bondi gets asked a question about the Epstein files and Trump interrupts and goes, you're still talking about the Epstein files. You're still Talking about this guy who doesn't matter and doesn't make a difference. He's dead. Why are you talking about that? So anger Trump then shifted into, no, listen, we're transparent. Release any pertinent documents from grand jury testimony. And now they're moving into shifting blame Trump's for transparency. Why won't his DOJ release the files? Why won't the FBI release the files? You've got to go and talk to them. 10 days, 10, 12, 14 days. Multiple different iterations of how they're trying to deal with this. And, and the last element of how they're trying to deal with this is distraction, which we're going to come back to a little bit later in the show. If you are Donald Trump, one phrase you really don't want to hear is, your case has been assigned to Judge Darren Gales. And guess what just happened. Donald Trump's huge libel lawsuit against Rupert Murdoch and the Wall Street Journal over their story linking him to Jeffrey Epstein last week. That case has now landed on the desk of Judge Gales. This is the same judge who oversaw Donald Trump's disastrous lawsuit against Michael Cohen, friend of the show, which Donald Trump quietly dropped the moment a deposition was scheduled. And this is bad for Trump. It's not just bad legally, this is bad optically. Specifically, Judge Gale's was appointed by former President Obama. Judge Gale's is the first openly gay black man on the federal bench. He's the opposite of Trump's dream judge, which is an old white guy who loves maga. And now that is the Judge Darren Gales, that's overseeing a case where Trump is desperately, desperately trying to deny that he sent Jeffrey Epstein a birthday letter allegedly featuring a naked woman, breasts drawn in marker, and Trump's signature as pubic hair. That's what this is about. So what happens now? First of all, Gale's could do the same thing he did in the Cohen case, which is, all right, let's move forward. The next step is for Trump to be deposed. And that's where it would get very real, very quickly, because that would mean that Trump, under oath, would be in the position of answering questions about Jeffrey Epstein, about G. Lane Maxwell, the birthday letter, the infamous quote where Trump said some. I'm paraphrasing, Epstein likes beautiful women just like I do. And some of those women are on the younger side. And even Donald Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen is sort of laughing at this. And there's the expectation potentially, that Murdoch will settle. But others believe that Trump's going to bail as soon as the possibility of Trump sitting for a deposition comes up. Now, the kicker is Trump keeps accusing the media about of lying about Jeffrey Epstein. But Trump is keeping the story alive with the lawsuit that the lawsuit guarantees, headlines, court records, maybe video. And of course, if Trump really wants to move forward, it has the potential to generate a deposition of Trump, which I can't imagine that he wants. Now if you're wondering how Rupert Murdoch side is taking it, they're basically saying bring it. I am not a defender of News Corp. I'm not a defender of Fox, I'm not a defender of the Wall Street Journal. But essentially reporting is that News Corp has full confidence in the reporting. They believe the Wall Street Journal properly and fully vetted what they published and it sounds like they're willing to go down to the mat and say this is real. Trump wrote this thing, Trump sent this thing. So again, Trump may be walking directly into this legal buzzsaw and if he could just control himself, he might actually be able to get the story to at least to a degree, die down. So this time the guy holding the saw is an Obama appointed judge who has already pissed, pissed off Trump before. Let's buckle up and wait to see where this goes. And we're going to have a lot more on this on our substack. So I hope that you're subscribed free there@substack.david pakman.com Most people trying to lose weight focus on diet and exercise, which makes perfect sense. Sometimes habits and behaviors can also play an outsized role. And our sponsor Hypnosio is a self hypnotherapy app designed to help with things like emotional eating, cravings, portion control. If you're working on healthier habits, something like this can help to reinforce the changes you're trying to make. Hypnosio guides you through short hypnotherapy sessions, just a few minutes a day. The idea here is let's bring stress down, let's increase mindfulness around food and, and just build some longer, longer term consistency. 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- [36:40]
Becky
Thanks for having me on, David. Appreciate it.
- [36:42]
David Pakman
So I love this book. I'm going to be honest with my audience. My audience knows I read a ton of personal finance books. I've got a list of them that I recommend on my website. I've got an MBA in financial planning. This is sort of like my background and I think that this is a really great book specifically for my audience. For this reason, in the sort of like progressive political ecosystem, there is understandable skepticism of Wall street, big corporations, all these different things. And sometimes that political skepticism which is warranted can bleed over into a sort of lack of care or concern with personal finance stuff, which I don't think is great. And what I mean by that is I can work to change systems that I find to be unfair or problematic for a really long time, and it won't change the fact that I'm still going to need to hopefully have my personal financial house in order. And so I don't see a conflict between these two things and what you talk about in the book. I find you do acknowledge some of the structural limitations and factors that can prevent people from getting ahead financially, for example. But you're basically giving an assessment, as I see it, of here are the most common ways people do get their legs under them financially and at different levels of wealth where people can struggle. And I think that this is just such critical stuff regardless of people's political views. And you don't get political in the booktube. Be clear, is that one of the key things here, which is at a structural level, here's how people move up the wealth ladder and how they can move down? Unfortunately, yeah, that's the idea.
- [38:34]
Becky
It's to just say, like, hey, what is the data actually show us about this stuff? Like for someone who's in, let's say, level one, which is less than $10,000 in net worth, like, what are the typical things that they do to get out of there? Like what, what type of systems do they rely on? What do they have second jobs? All those types of things. And so thinking through where you are today and where you want to go, and then I try and figure out what are the most likely paths that are going to get you there. And of course that doesn't guarantee anything, but it's something that can move you in the right direction.
- [39:01]
David Pakman
One of the things that you talk about in the book, which is interesting, is out in the world there's a lot of talk about expenses, how much, you know, you could be a millionaire if you didn't get a latte a day. And these sort of things are so common in this space. And one of the things that you address in the book that I think is interesting that I want you to elaborate on a little bit is in different situations at different wealth levels, the day to day spending may or may not actually be the main driver of getting ahead financially or, or of falling behind. Can you talk a little bit about the math of that?
- [39:39]
Becky
Yeah. So I think the issue is if you actually look like the strongest relationship in personal finance is income and savings rate, the higher someone's income is on average, the higher their savings rate. Of course, you and I both know people that are have a really high incomes and they spend it all, they're bad spenders, etc. But those people are generally the exception. They're not the rule. So in general, as people's incomes go up, they are able to save more money. And obviously most listeners who are listening like, yeah, obviously. But a lot of what, there's still a lot of rhetoric around there about you're spending too much on lattes and avocado toast and all this stuff. If this was obvious and well known, there wouldn't be people out there arguing these other points. Points. And so in terms of some of the math and how I think about spending, I like to do it based on the wealth levels. And I'll just briefly go through those. So level one is less than $10,000 in net worth. As a reminder, net worth is just your assets minus your liabilities. So you take everything you own, your cash, your stocks, your, your house, your vehicle, etc, and then subtract out any of your debt. So mortgage debt, credit card, student loan, and that's your, well, net worth. So level one's less than 10,000. Level two is 10,000 to 100,000. Level three is 100,000 to a million. Level four is 1 million to 10 million. Level five is 10 million to 100 million. And finally level six is over 100 million. And the cool thing about, in the data that is actually pretty Split up across the United States, about 20% are in level one. That's the less than 10,000, 20% are in level two. 10 to 100,000, 40% are in level three. That's your typical like middle class in the United States, that's a hundred thousand to a million. And about 18% are in level four, that's 1 to 10 million. And then the top 2% is level five and six. And so the thing to note there, when I, when I think about spending, I try to give each one of these levels what I call some sort of spending freedom. So I say by the time you get to level two, I say you have, you start to have grocery freedom. Which means when you go to the grocery store, you can kind of buy the things you want. And the reasoning for this is level two, let's say you had wealth from 10,000 to 100,000. I have a rule called the 0.01% rule. And that basically says good, I love, just take, just take 0.01% of your wealth and that's how much you can spend like every day on like a splurge purchase. So if you're if your net worth and so.01% is the same as dividing by 10,000. So if your net worth is $10,000, that we assume you can spend $1 a day and that's like a trivial amount for you. So if you're at the grocery store.
- [42:03]
David Pakman
You can blow a dollar a day mindlessly. It's not really going to impact your financial future.
- [42:08]
Becky
Yeah. So the idea is I imagine you're at the grocery store and you're like, oh, do I get eggs or cage free eggs? And the cage free eggs are a dollar more. If you're in level two, I say yes, you can buy the cage free eggs. It's not going to cause any long term damage to your finances. Right. And as you get out of level two, go into level three, that becomes a restaurant freedom. And then the amount goes up by you know, 10x by the way. So just to memorize the levels, level three is the one I tell everyone to memorize 100,000 to a million because that's like where the middle class is in the United States. And in addition to that, it's easy, easy from there, if you just divide by 10, you go down a level. If you multiply by 10, you go up a level. So level three, that's where you start to have what I call restaurant freedom. Because now the marginal choice is anywhere from $10 at the beginning of Level 3 to $100 by the time you have, you know, let's say a million dollars in net worth. And the thinking there is like when you're at a grocery, when you're at a restaurant, you're like, oh, do I buy this or do I buy that? And that marginal difference in price is somewhere between, let's say 10 in the low end to let's say 100 bucks at the high end. And so you can keep thinking through that. Level four is travel, freedom and so forth.
- [43:06]
David Pakman
There's a significant chunk of the book or of a chapter, I guess we'll say, devoted to the most common ways that people end up moving down a level. I think we have this idea that if things sort of go well in life, you would at minimum stay in the level you're at, or hopefully to some degree you would go up in the levels. And you talk about how at different levels of wealth, the things that end up bringing you down are different. And so focusing in on this level three, at least for now, because as you're talking about, it's where a lot of the middle class is. What are the most common reasons someone would go from level three down to level two during their life?
- [43:48]
Becky
Yeah, so I think that going down a level is usually some form of bad luck. Like you lost a job, you can't save money, and then you have to draw down on what assets you have. And so someone in level 3 is it. Bad luck is true across the wealth ladder, but the lower you are on the wealth ladder, the more luck can impact you in a negative way. Right. Like if you think about someone in level one, they don't have much money and let's say they're drive to work every day. If they get a flat tire and they don't have money to repair, they could lose their job, they're now in debt. Right. You could just imagine the cycle that goes from there. And the same is true as you kind of move up the wealth ladder, but as you have more money, you kind of have more safety and security, and you can kind of decide deal with those things without having to worry about dropping down the level. Now, the thing that prevents people from moving up from level three to level four, one of those things is income. If we look at the people that actually made it after a decade, who made it from level three to level four, and compared those to people that just stayed in Level 3 over a decade, the one big difference is their starting income. People just earn more and they're able to save more. Okay. That makes sense. But the other thing, though, is those people that stayed in Level 3 over 10 years, they spent almost as much as the people that made it to level four. And so it's like there is a keeping up with the Joneses that I am seeing in the data to some extent. And so that's something else to keep in mind. But when you're talking about falling down a level, it's going to be some sort of attack on your income. And that's usually a job loss that you can't get back from or some sort of disability or something. And by the way, these are rare, so I'm not trying to scare anybody, but falling down, you know, one wealth level over a decade or two decades, only about 10 to 12% of households will ever do that. So it's very rare. Most people stay in the same wealth level over the period of a decade. And, you know, some do move up, but, you know, the vast majority do not fall down, which is a good thing.
- [45:26]
David Pakman
There's no doubt that there are people going who will have heard the first 10 minutes of this conversation that we've just had. And they said, hey, everything you're talking about is great. And it makes sense until, you know, like Mike Tyson says, you've got a plan, you get punched in the mouth, the plan goes out the window. And so I know that a lot of my audience is very sensitive to some of the structural and systems systemic realities of the economy in which we live. Hey, David, that all sounds great, but if I get hurt and now can't work our insufficient safety net, depending on what state you live in and what you qualify for. Right. It's all situationally dependent, but the lack of safety net and my personal situation is the problem. Or there's people in D.C. making decisions which aren't raising wages in the way that would help me go from level two to three. Or I guess my question is, without becoming overtly partizan, which I don't really think this, this is. In this sense, what about or how should the sort of structural and systemic political realities of how the economy works play into the understanding of your book and a plan that makes sense for a specific family?
- [46:41]
Becky
I think you have to think about this in terms of, okay, here is the way things are. And of course, we may want to change these things, but whether we will, it's kind of like what you said at the beginning. We don't know if we can. It may take longer than we think, et cetera, but within these current rules of the game, even if the rules are not fair, they're rigged, etc. There's a lot of different ways you can describe this. What's the best move I can make? And so if it's like, okay, if you're on disability or something, you can't work, that is a really tough situation to be in. I don't have a great solution there. Right. We'd have to look through, okay, what skills do you have that you can maybe use to try and earn income? Right. That's one question. We have to just come up with something. Right? Because at the end of the day, you know, if a system is set up and it's not really working for you, we need to figure out what can we do, if anything. There's got to be some sort of opportunity there. I always am trying to be an optimist here and like, there's got to be something you can do that doesn't mean that, oh, I think everyone can become a millionaire. I don't think that's true. But I think there's got to be some sort of, you know, skill you can acquire or some sort of path you can get on that can get you into a better place financially. And so it's like, let's figure out what that is instead of just blaming a lot of other systems which are part of the problem. Let's say like, what can I do given this not great situation? That's how I would think about it.
- [47:54]
David Pakman
How do you think about the changing tax laws over time in the sense of, you know, I'll talk to people who are just casual investors or business owners. I'll talk to friends who were lawyers in estate planning or I had lunch with a financial adviser friend the other day and there's sort of like two sides to this. One of them is like one of my friends is very much about like, David, did you see the new rules on Social Security that are in the Trump tax bill? And then, you know, we need to see what the percentages are on estate tax or all the deduction and others who kind of go, listen, none of that stuff really matters. If you have a guiding North Star, which is it's often much easier to get ahead by making more than by cutting spending. You want to maximize how much you contribute to tax advantaged accounts no matter what's going on. Sort of like it actually doesn't. The day to day matters a lot less for most people. How important are kind of like the year to year changes in tax rules or whatever the case may be?
- [48:58]
Becky
I think they're incredibly important on an aggregate level because it changes like, oh, now we're not taxing people that, you know, now bonus depreciation is accelerated so business owners can now depreciate their entire properties right up front like that. That is clearly helping one class of people. How much that impacts you as an individual is very small. So you're right that like year to year it doesn't impact you that much, but it impacts society as a whole. So I think we can say a lot about tax policy and what it does, you know, in terms of helping one group versus another. And I think that is actually a very important conversation. I think taxes should be higher on higher income individuals, including myself. I'm saying that at the same time, you know, you're right, like one tax change is not going to move the needle that much for you. Maybe you have to pay a few percent more here or you pay less or whatever it is. It's more about like, what's my career trajectory, what can I do there that's going to actually really impact my long term finances?
- [49:51]
David Pakman
What is it about spending based on net worth rather than income that makes sense. But at the same time, accounting for someone with X net worth while working seems very different than someone with that same net worth who is not working for whatever reason. Right? So how can we think about that?
- [50:12]
Becky
So you always have to spend based on your income. Everyone knows that, like if you don't have no income coming in, then like you have to just live off whatever assets you have. And if your assets aren't throwing off enough income, then that's obviously a problem. So everyone spends off income. I think the spending decision, when everyone talks about spending, it's always what I call on the margin. It's that last thing. It's like, can I afford this thing? Right. No. For example, no one in level one with less than $10,000 in wealth is going to the Ferrari dealership and like, oh, can I afford one of these? Like they know they can't. There's no marginal decision there, right? It's like the person in level one is like, can I afford this one thing? Can I afford these concert tickets or this thing or that thing, et cetera. And so that's where spending based on wealth can be really powerful because you income can be fickle. It comes and goes. And so I'm like, hey, if you're thinking about this marginal decision, I would say do that based on wealth. And what the wealth ladder allows for, especially with the 0.01% rule, is over time, as you build wealth and you've demonstrated some sort of financial discipline, you unlock these higher levels of spending freedom, as I call it. So you can spend more at restaurants or whatever and you don't have to pick those exact, you know, restaurant free, may not like restaurants. Okay, Find something else in that price range and use that and just kind of build this like financial map for yourself to say, hey, once I get to this level, then I can, you know, loosen the purse strings a bit around these certain spending categories specifically.
- [51:30]
David Pakman
Now, for people in level, probably this applies mostly to level one, but maybe level one and two in that situation, is there one most likely path to raise someone up in terms of increasing my income, reducing my month to month cost of living, spending less on the margins? As you talk about better figuring out how to leverage government programs that may be available, what does the data tell us about the most effective way for someone at that lowest level to move up?
- [52:06]
Becky
So I don't have a ton of data on like just people in level one. Like, I looked at everything kind of in aggregate. I think the thing that I kind of emphasize in level one is think about all the, the wealth you have that's not necessarily financial. So people that can support you, friends, family, etc. If you don't have that, it makes it a lot tougher, obviously, coming from that position. But what I've seen, at least anecdotally, people that got out of those situations, they had to rely on a support network like, hey, can I crash here while I get some money saved up? And then they have to, if I'm being honest, they have to kind of go above and beyond to get out of that situation. It's an extreme situation and it sometimes requires, requires extreme sacrifice. Unfortunately, there's no way around it. You need, but you kind of need to do that to get to some safety. And I'm not saying you need to have $10,000 in cash, but you might need to have, you know, $2,000 in cash. And then once you have just that buffer, like from there, it's a lot easier because just saying, oh, I can afford my next month, next few months rent, I can afford to get food. I don't have to worry about any of that stuff. I don't. I could lose my job and still be okay for a few months. Just that buffer is incredibly important in terms of the jobs that people can get. There's all sorts of stuff out there. And usually what happens is someone makes a change and gets an education or something, and then it makes. It's like a big jump. It's not like, oh, I went from a minimum wage, minimum wage job to like a job that pays $5 more an hour. It's usually like someone that gets paid a salary that's far more than that. So it really depends on how you do it. But I would say if I was in level one and really struggling, I'd be like, who can I rely on in my support network to really try and get out of this situation?
- [53:38]
David Pakman
I encourage you to check out Nick's book the Wealth Ladder out today. We've been speaking with Nick Maggiuli, CEO for Ritholtz Wealth Management, and the book is the Wealth Ladder Proven strategies for every step of your financial life. You can get the book at David pakman.com/wealth ladder, believe it or not. Nick, always good to talk to you. Really appreciate it and congratulations on the book.
- [54:02]
Becky
Yeah, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. And by the way, if anyone has any questions, I try to answer every dm. So on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, wherever you can find me, I will try to answer every single DM you have in any way I can help. So thank you.
- [54:14]
David Pakman
A pending Supreme Court case could strip our Fourth Amendment rights and allow immigration agents to come into our homes for any reason. No probable cause needed. All while Republicans try to twist things so that you think this is all great for America. This should be the biggest story in the US Right now, but it's almost impossible to keep up with the millions of moves that Trump is making every single day. That's why Ground News exists. Ground News is an app and website that exposes the blind spots and spin before it takes control of our opinions. Ground News is the smarter, more reliable way to stay informed when MAGA is banking on us getting distracted. I'm partnering up with Ground News to give you 40% off the same vantage plan that I use, so you'll pay only five bucks a month for all of their premium features. Just go to Ground News, slash Pacman or use the code Pacman in the app when you sign up. The link is in the description or scan the QR code. Donald Trump is in full panic mode. His administration is really drowning in Epstein related backlash. Even with some of his own base turning on him. A new threat has emerged and this one could actually be quite dangerous, which is that G. Lane Maxwell might talk. Calls are growing louder for Maxwell, who's currently serving a sentence in prison for helping Jeffrey Epstein to try traffic Underage girls. Calls are growing for G. Lane Maxwell to testify before Congress. This would not be behind closed doors. The idea is this would be, of course, under oath. It would be live on the record. Attorney Alan Dershowitz, who has represented both Epstein and Trump, is pushing for her to be released and to give her immunity, saying she knows everything. And that's interesting, because Dershowitz was at one point sort of wrapped up in the Epstein stuff, and he was very clear. He said, I have done absolutely nothing. And Dershowitz at least seems to want everything to come out, suggesting he's confident he really has nothing to do with it. This is what has Donald Trump absolutely terrified. Maxwell is not a side player in this thing. She was the logistical brain, the sort of chief operating office officer of Jeffrey Epstein's operation. She arranged travel, she booked meetings, she managed the homes. She knows who was there. She knows when and if that includes Trump, she knows about it. Photos, flight logs, quotes, videos. You can't erase the past. And no matter how many times Trump screams that it's a witch hunt, he can't stop people who were there from remembering the truth. Trump and Epstein weren't strangers, and they were close enough to host each other. They were close enough for Mar? A Lago, close enough that Trump once joked that Epstein likes them young. And it's possible that G. Lane Maxwell is going to start talking. Now. A bunch of different sources are indicating that Trump's panic is because he's backed into a corner. No one's buying it. If Trump takes this head on, like suing the Wall Street Journal over their report about Trump's Christmas card to Jeffrey Epstein, Trump risks getting deposed. And of course, it might be true. And if it's true, the lawsuit's not going to help if Trump tries to run away from it. Well, we saw what happened with that a couple of weeks ago. And even MAGA influencers like Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Tim Pool, and others go, wait a second. He thinks we're just going to forget about it. And there are even Republicans saying, this is not Partizan. If we really do care about child sex trafficking, we need all the documents, no matter what the collateral damage is. So the timing is terrible. The Ghislaine Maxwell pressure is coming at the same time that there is pressure to unseal the documents. Trump's response was, well, I'm ordering Pam Bondi to release pertinent grand jury testimony, but that means stuff nobody thinks will hurt him. And even that's looking like a stall tactic. Or as I said earlier, it's potentially looking like a plan to say I ordered it. The DOJ is not doing it, The FBI is not doing it, and we have real problems here. Trump's lashing out. He's melting down in interviews, he's slipping on in live formats. He is now dealing with G. Lane Maxwell being back in the headlines. And it does seem as though he's losing control of the story. When we really get down to what matters most here, if the highest value is protecting victims, by the way, many of which are well into adulthood at this point in time, why wouldn't you want to hear from the woman who knows who visited, who flew which route, who made the call, who was I working with? If G. Lane Maxwell is granted immunity, there would be nothing stopping her from laying it all out for the world to hear. Except if she believes that immunity legally won't keep her alive. If G. Lane Maxwell comes to believe, they might try to kill me, to silence me. I'm not suggesting that that is what would happen. I'm saying if she's granted immunity, we might say, well, there's no reason now to stay quiet. The one reason would be if she thought her life or health were at risk. So I would expect, you know, going back to the Hillary Clinton emails, which Donald Trump did, and we'll talk about that in a moment, more Obama conspiracies, that sort of thing is what I would expect. But the panic is setting in. The old playbook of Trump isn't working. And even historian Heather Cox Richardson, in our conversation last week said she is following the Epstein story because of how this is starting to affect Donald Trump and the administration. Another way it's starting to affect him is called Hillary's emails. You've got to hear this. Trump's unraveling, and we've seen these meltdowns before. He's under pressure, and when he's under pressure, he goes back to the same old playbook, Hillary's emails. Obama spied on my campaign, the deep state, the witch hunt. Trump is sort of stuck in 2016. He's got a keyboard with three keys on it, or it's like a broken piano where it's only three keys that work. And he hopes that if he really loudly hits those keys, it'll drown out everything else, whatever fire he's trying to run away from. And right now, the fire is Epstein. The outrage from Trump's own supporters over his administration's handling of the Epstein files has really reached a boiling point because they promised transparency. Pam Bondi said she's got a list on her desk, thousands of pages at the FBI. She's got hundreds of pages. The memo then comes out a couple of weeks ago. There's no list, Documents are sealed. And MAGA World understandably feels duped. Not by liberals this time, not by the media, but by Donald Trump himself. So what does Trump do? He changes the subject. And the latest is that he's hitting the red panic button and out come Hillary's emails. They just, you think they're gone, they're in hibernation. They move the, the stone aside that's covering the cave and out they walk like a sleepy bear in the spring. Yesterday, Attorney General Pam Bondi announced the DOJ brace for it is releasing new documents related to the Hillary Clinton emails investigation. A case that, that has been dead for nearly a decade. There is no new information. They're reheating old junk like leftovers you throw in the microwave a day too late, you should have thrown them out. And they're serving them up as red meat for a base that doesn't really have an appetite for that right now. What they want are the Epstein files. Now, as a reminder, the Hillary Clinton email scandal was investigated. It should have been investigated, and it was. She used a private email server when she was Obama's Secretary of State. The FBI said she was careless. They found no criminal intent. No charges were filed. And Trump has built a decade long political career screaming, lock her up. Screaming, it's her emails. She acid washed them and bleached them. Even though Trump's administration has since mishandled more classified material than, you know, going down to a Home Depot or Office Depot or Staples shredder and just shredding documents. So this really isn't about Hillary. This is a pattern. Trump feels cornered. He tries to rewrite the past and suddenly we're back in 2016 again. Obama spied in my campaign. Crooked Hillary, the greatest witch hunt. The Russia stuff was all fake. It's someone else's fault. And the proof is in what they're doing. They are. He's got the DOJ talking about Hillary's emails. Yesterday we talked about how he now has Tulsi Gabbard saying, I uncovered that Obama did treason and we've got it, we've got to prosecute. And Trump posted AI generated video of Barack Obama being arrested, fake mug shots of Democratic officials. So the bottom line here is the Epstein backlash is real. It's not led by Democrats, it's not left by adverse, led by adversarial media. The MAGA people were promised files that Trump was going to be the Only one to release and they never came. And now Pam Bondi's backpedaling, Trump suing the Wall Street Journal. And none of this is the behavior of someone who's in control and has an innocent conscience. This is the behavior of someone desperate to bury the truth. They're releasing MLK files that even MLK's family is saying, we didn't want this stuff released. And by the way, Bernice King posted now do the Epstein files. Everybody sees what's happening. It's a distraction. It's not working the way it used to. He's trying the same slogans, he's trying Hillary's emails, but fewer people than ever are listening. And the empire that was built on grievance and paranoia is simply not working the way it once did. The spell maybe is breaking. And the more Trump screams about Hillary's emails, I believe the more obvious it is that he's not in control, that he's cornered, that he's lashing out, he's panicked. And this time I don't believe MAGA is going to save him. Where do you think it's all going to fall? Let me know info@david pakman.com now on the bonus show today we are going to talk about what the White House is doing to the Wall Street Journal because of the story that the Wall Street Journal put out. We will talk in more detail about the release of the MLK files, which again is all part of the same distraction. And finally, Coca Cola saying because of what Trump wants and what Bobby Kennedy want, we're going to replace the corn syrup in American Coke with cane sugar. Is this real? Is this legit? Does this matter or is it yet another distraction? All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. You can sign up instantly at join pacman.com and you can request a free membership at David pakman.com/free membership. Hope you'll join me. I'll see you then.
- [66:13]
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