← The David Pakman Show
The David Pakman Show
7/24/25: Trump in Epstein files, Tulsi tries to save him, MAGA revolts
01:10:37
-- On the Show: -- Jimmy Gomez, Democratic Congressman representing California’s 34th Congressional District, joins David to discuss ICE raids, deportations, and Trump sending troops to Los Angeles -- Trump was personally briefed by Pam Bondi...
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- [00:08]
David Pakman
We start today with explosive news. Donald Trump's name is now officially in the Epstein files, something Trump denied just days ago. And his own Justice Department is attempting to shut the whole thing down. They are scrambling lawyers to Ghislaine Maxwell's proof prison to speak to her. And it is all blowing up. Back in May, Attorney General Pam Bondi sat down with Donald Trump and we now know, told him flat out, your name is in the Epstein files multiple times alongside hundreds of other big names. And being in the Epstein files does not automatically mean you did something illegal, as I've been saying for a long time. But we cannot pretend this is nothing. Trump's deceit, lies and attempts to smother this information is the behavior of a person with a guilty conscience, not someone who believes that they are innocent. And at the same meeting, we now know, thanks to Wall Street Journal reporting, Pam Bondi told Donald Trump the DOJ will not release any more information. There is a cover up. They all know Trump's name is in the files. They all, they've been lying about it. Now, why is this so politically explosive? Well, the files reportedly contain images of child sexual exploitation. They contain personal information about the victims and so the public doesn't get to see what's in them. But not even redacted versions, not even versions that tell us who are the perpetrators, not the victims. And just like that, the so called Epstein client list was locked away for good. But we now know they've been lying. Now, this is Donald Trump. Just nine days ago, he was asked, were you briefed by Pam Bondi on the Epstein files? He says, yes. Is your name in them? He says, no, this was a lie. Pam Bondi told him you are in the files. Video of Donald Trump lie down, brief.
- [02:14]
Donald Trump
You on the DOJ and FBI review, the findings of that review.
- [02:18]
David Pakman
The Attorney General briefed me on what?
- [02:20]
Tulsi Gabbard
On the, on a DOJ and Epstein.
- [02:22]
Pam Bondi
On what, on what subject?
- [02:23]
Donald Trump
Epstein on Epstein of the review of the files.
- [02:25]
Pam Bondi
Attorney General Pam Bondi, a very, very quick briefing.
- [02:28]
Donald Trump
Did she tell you, what did she.
- [02:30]
David Pakman
Tell you about the review?
- [02:30]
Donald Trump
And specifically, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the file?
- [02:35]
Pam Bondi
Now she's, she's given us just a very quick briefing. And in terms of the credibility of the different things that they've seen, and I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey, they were made up by Obama, they were made up by the Biden, you know, and we went through years of that with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.
- [02:59]
David Pakman
All right, so the Question was, were you told you're in the files? He goes, no, no, no. What we were told is the files are completely made up. Now, of course, as with Trump, there's always two possibilities. Donald Trump knew he was saying something that wasn't true, or Donald Trump's memory is so bad that he didn't remember, but he did remember being briefed. He's telling the truth about being briefed. He's only lying about whether his name was in the files. So that makes it harder to believe that he simply doesn't remember. So we fast forward to now. Donald Trump's team is panicked and scrambling. White House spokesperson Stephen Chung says the entire report from the Wall Street Journal is fake news. Donald Trump himself says, bondi never told me my name was in the files. But, but we now know from multiple senior administration officials that that's exactly what went down at the White House. Pam Bondi showed up, she said, we have these documents. Your name is in them, in them. We're not going to release anything further. They will never see the light of day. Now, meanwhile, the MAGA base is completely melting down because for years Donald Trump and his allies have been saying, we will expose the global elites tied to Epstein. The narrative was that it is powerful Democrats, a powerful cabal of Democrats. It includes Hillary Clinton, it might even include Barack Obama, Obama, Hollywood, whatever, right? But now all of a sudden, Trump's in the files. The files are sealed. And so this isn't a contradiction. This isn't a double standard. This is a complete betrayal of the MAGA base inside the administration. People are furious. FBI Director Cash Patel, Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino reportedly pushing to release more of the files because, because their credibility is now at stake. They spent years while Biden was president saying, if Donald Trump gets in there, you're going to see all those files. He's the transparent guy. Bongino is a conservative media star, podcaster. He's now being trashed by his fellow, by his followers for staying quiet. And there was even a blow up meeting between him and Bondi where accusations, accusations were flying and tempers reportedly were flaring. And all of this has created the biggest backlash that Trump has faced from his base ever in his 10 years in the political world. The same people who put up giant projections across from the White House demanding the release of the Epstein files when Biden was president and they believe Trump would do it. And now the files are sealed and Trump is on record saying, make the story go away. Yesterday we covered Trump saying, any time you're asked about Epstein, you should say, Obama did treason. He was sedacious, as Donald Trump wrongly said seditious. And so Trump and his own administration are the obstacle to the transparency that was promised. They're not pursuing justice. They're not shining a light on abusers. They're just trying to make it go away. So the big news, number one, and there's a lot of big news we'll get to in a moment. The big news number one, Trump's name is in the Epstein files. He was told that. And the DOJ is colluding with Trump to seal it and smother it so it never sees the light of day. Part two of the scandal. They are going to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell. Trump is sending his team. Let's talk about that next. This could get very interesting. Today, Donald Trump has scrambled the Department of Justice to go and meet with Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell is the convicted Epstein accomplice who is serving 20 years in federal prison for trafficking under. Trafficking underage girls for Jeffrey Epstein and his sex abuse ring. The person who's been put in charge of this meeting, it happens to be Donald Trump's former lawyer, now Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. This is Trump's newest fixer. When Trump has a legal problem, he sends Todd Blanche. Pam Bondi, Trump's Attorney General, has just announced the meeting. And Todd Blanche sort of said the quiet part out loud. Blanche said, if Ghislaine Maxwell has information about anyone who has committed crimes against victims, the FBI and DOJ will hear what she has to say. But the real kicker here is, is that Blanche says it is Trump himself who is pushing for this. Trump is pushing for this. And Trump is using very careful language. He wants to release pertinent grand jury testimony. He wants to release credible evidence. And of course, what's not credible, we know, according to Trump, is anything that has his name on it. Which brings us to where we are today. The guy who defended Trump in trials is now the one who's going to sit down with Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, the interesting thing here is there, there are competing paths for Gillian. On the one hand, she says, the government never came to me and said, tell us everything you know. And so she is willing potentially to make a deal for immunity. I will tell you what I know in exchange for immunity, in exchange for whatever. On the other hand, we must suspect because Trump uses pardons like trading cards to get what he wants. Bargaining chips. There's also the possibility that Trump is sending his lawyer there to say indirectly or directly, implicitly or explicitly. Maybe there could be a pardon in the works if you shut your mouth or if you don't talk about Donald Trump in whatever testimony or deposition you sit for. And so Ghislaine Maxwell, in a sense, has multiple paths here. But it is Donald Trump who is panicked over she might, what she might say. We also, by the way, have the House Oversight Committee preparing to subpoena the DOJ for Epstein, related grand jury transcripts, the full thing, the entire thing, not pertinent, as determined by Donald Trump. And all of this is happening because there is tremendous fear Trump and his allies want to get ahead of something. Maybe it's what Ghislaine Maxwell is going to say, maybe it's what's in the files, maybe it's both. Either way, the idea that Todd Blanch is going to handle a sex trafficking case makes no sense unless you, as the president, are afraid of what might come out. This, this is not how innocent people behave. If you've done nothing wrong, if you're truly innocent, you don't send your former personal criminal defense attorney to meet with a convicted sex trafficker. Why would you? You let the Justice Department do its job. You don't try to insert yourself into the middle of this decades long scandal that involves abuse and cover ups and this trail of elite connections. But that's what Trump is doing. Because he knows he's in the files. Because he was told that, that he's in the files. So leadership, no panic. Yes, Trump must suspect, or maybe he even knows. Maybe. Pam Bondi said, you're in 76 files. There are four pictures and whatever. Right. She briefed him about it. When you were president, the Department of Justice isn't supposed to be functioning as your personal crisis PR team. But Trump keeps blurring the lines. His defense lawyer goes to handle Ghislaine Maxwell's potential cooperation. And can you even picture the headlines? If Barack Obama sent his former personal lawyer, who he had made deputy Attorney general, to talk to someone convicted of trafficking minors, what do you think would be going on? Fox News would be melting down. Republicans would be calling for impeachment within the hour, but with trumpet silence. Because when you're in the cult, it's never about what's true. You've got to protect your leader, even if he's orange. And the only real reason to insert yourself directly into a potential witness meeting is if you believe the witness might say something about you. So Trump isn't afraid Ghislaine Maxwell might lie. Trump's afraid that Ghislaine Maxwell will tell the truth and he's doing everything he can to cover it up. And he is also deploying Tulsi. This is becoming another major attempted bulwark against problems for Trump. Let's talk about that. They finally found a use for Tulsi Gabbard. She is going full speed ahead with the distractathon about Obama's treason in order to distract from what's going on with Jeffrey Epstein. Remember that Tulsi was on Trump's shit list because she issued an intelligence assessment that directly contradicted Donald Trump's. Donald Trump said we've got to bomb Iran and I did it because they're close to a nuclear weapon. Tulsi Gabbard's intelligence assessment was, no, they're not. And Trump threw her under the bus. Says, I don't care what Tulsi says. She was in the doghouse. But now Trump has a useful has a use case for Tulsi Gabbard and it is for her to distract from everything that's going on and say Barack Obama attempted a coup against Trump. Barack Obama committed treason. They even bring up injections. We'll get to that in a moment. So here's Tulsa yesterday joining Caroline Levitt for a press briefing. And this, this is full blown panic control.
- [12:37]
Caroline Levitt
The brief summary of the details that you'll find within the House majority staff's report in their investigation into The Obama directed January 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment that leads us to the very same conclusion that we announced in the release of our documents on Friday. The implications of this are far reaching and have to do with the integrity of our Democratic Republic.
- [13:03]
David Pakman
The implications are damn. The Epstein files must be really bad for Trump.
- [13:08]
Caroline Levitt
Has to do with an outgoing president taking action to manufacture intelligence to undermine and usurp the will of the American people in that election and launch what would be a years long coup against the incoming president, United States. Donald Trump.
- [13:24]
David Pakman
Up is down, black is white, hot as cold. And of course they have not a shred of evidence that Obama did any such thing as president. Of course Barack Obama said, let's figure out what Russia's capabilities are. Could Russia meddle or could Russia hack? But it doesn't matter. This was one of the most unhinged and dangerous press briefings of this administration so far. Tulsi Gabbard adding that there is a disservice being done here to the American people. And of course she's right. She's only wrong about which disservice that is, is this irony, or is Tulsi kind of a moron, or is Tulsi just desperate to do Trump's bidding to get back on his good side?
- [14:11]
Pam Bondi
Thank you.
- [14:12]
David Pakman
Question for Director Gabbard. A spokesperson for former President Obama said in a statement earlier this week, quote, nothing in the documents issued last week undercuts the widely accepted conclusion that Russia worked to influence the 2016 election but did not successfully manipulate any votes. How do you respond to critics like former President Obama and also others on the Hill who say that the administration is conflating apples and oranges here, conflating allegations of actual hacking of voter machines and allegations of interference generally?
- [14:43]
Caroline Levitt
I think it's a disservice to the American people that former President Obama's office and others who are criticizing the transparency that is being delivered by releasing these documents, they are doing a disservice to the American people and trying to deflect away from their culpable ability in what is a historic scandal.
- [15:03]
David Pakman
And we still have no evidence of a scandal. We have no evidence that anything other than what was publicly known has taken place. The assessment was Russia is trying to meddle, but Russia does not have the capability to hack election systems and modify results. That's the conclusion, and that is still what we believe today. Now, my favorite moment from this entire thing. You there's a lot of things to criticize about CNN, but CNN's Kaitlan Collins is really good at triggering MAGA. And she straight up says, tulsi, are you doing all of this just to try to suck up to Trump because Trump attacked you and you were on the outs? Tulsi doesn't like it and even Caroline Levitt doesn't like it. This is a great moment, Dr. Gabbard.
- [15:47]
Donald Trump
You referenced the past intelligence reports and assessments on this, including that 2017 one that was the signed off, as Ed noted, by every Republican on the Senate intelligence community, including the acting chair of the time, now Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who said in a statement that they did not find any evidence of Russian collusion. But they did find, however, is very troubling and they found irrefutable evidence of Russian meddling. One, are you saying that he's wrong in that statement that he made then? And secondly, what would you say to people who believe that you're only releasing these documents now to improve your standing with the president after he said that your intelligence assessments were wrong?
- [16:23]
Caroline Levitt
Well, first I want to correct something that you stated which was citing the Senate Intelligence Committee's report as being one in the same, I think you said the intelligence community, the Senate Intelligence Committee has a very different function than the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. The evidence and the intelligence that has been declared classified and released is irrefutable. I'm going to let Caroline speak to Secretary Rubio.
- [16:50]
Donald Trump
I'll speak to both questions. First, on Secretary Rubio, he put out a statement in 2020 following that Senate Intelligence Committee report, and he said what they found is troubling. We found irrefutable evidence of Russia meddling, which the Director of National Intelligence just confirmed for all of you, that Russia was trying to sow distrust and chaos. But what's the outrage in this? That Secretary Rubio did not say at the time, The Democrats were saying at the time is the fact that the intelligence community was concocting this narrative that the president colluded with the Russians, that the president's son was holding secret meetings with the Russians. All of these lies that were never true. And he also said at that time, we discovered deeply troubling actions taken by the FBI under Comey, particularly their acceptance and willingness to rely on the Steele dossier without verifying its methodology or sourcing. The Steele dossier that many outlets in this room ran as the gospel truth, and it was cooked up and paid for by the Clinton campaign. As for your second question, Caitlin, I think who is saying that. That she would release this to try to boost her standing with the president? Who has said that? Well, the president has publicly undermined her. When it came to Iran, he said she was wrong. He told me that she didn't know what she was talking about. That was on Air Force One. On camera the only people who are suggesting that the Director of National Intelligence, Intelligence would release evidence to try to boost her standing with the president are the people in this room who constantly try to sow distrust and chaos amongst the president's cabinet.
- [18:12]
David Pakman
And that's right, Caitlin. The only problem here is you people. It's the press. Why can't the press get out of the way and let us do and say whatever the hell we want?
- [18:20]
Donald Trump
It's not working. I am. I will. I will just answer your question directly. I am with the President of the United States every day. He has the utmost confidence.
- [18:29]
David Pakman
Yeah. We then moved, and of course, Kaitlan Collins is completely correct. Everything Tulsi Gabbert is doing here, and I almost get the sense that she knows she's doing something terrible, everything Tulsi Gabbard is doing here is meant to get herself back in Trump's good graces. Now, there was another moment which is almost unbelievable. I mean, totally dystopian. Tulsi Gabbard started suggesting the use of tranquilizers by Hillary Clinton.
- [18:55]
Caroline Levitt
High level DNC emails that detailed evidence of Hillary's, quote, psycho emotional problems, uncontrolled fits of anger, aggression and cheerfulness. And that then Secretary Clinton was allegedly on a daily regimen of heavy tranquilizers.
- [19:15]
David Pakman
It's the United States now. We're a joke, folks. We're a joke. Tranquilizers. Now, there is a more sort of pressing and relevant question that was asked. A bunch of the stuff that you're now accusing Obama of. There is statute of limitations on. What about that? And Tulsi just goes, you know, those questions are really not for me. And then just quickly, I know you said you would leave the charging to doj, but the statute of limitations on.
- [19:45]
Tulsi Gabbard
Conspiracy is five years.
- [19:46]
David Pakman
So what else could they possibly pursue besides treason?
- [19:49]
Caroline Levitt
I think that's a great question for Attorney General Pam Bob Bondi. We are providing all of the evidence, all of the intelligence that we have, both redacted and unredacted versions, referring it to the Department of Justice and the FBI.
- [20:03]
David Pakman
All right, and then finally, why didn't Trump declassify this stuff during his first term? She doesn't really have an answer. You declassified these documents, if I'm not mistaken, Friday of last week. Correct?
- [20:18]
Caroline Levitt
We released them on Friday of last week. The first tranche.
- [20:21]
David Pakman
Yeah. And sorry, this is related to MLK and other files. This isn't the first time that President Trump has been president of the United States. He was President from 2017 to 2021. Couldn't the prior DNI under President Trump have declassified these documents? And why didn't that DNA do that at that time?
- [20:41]
Caroline Levitt
I can't speak to what happened there. There were several, several DNIs under the first Trump administration. President Trump faced many challenges from those who were working in the government who sought to undermine his presidency. That's been clearly detailed. What I can speak to is the fact that this was one of the first things that we started to investigate here within this Trump administration.
- [21:06]
David Pakman
All right. And of course, the answer that is implied is Trump didn't necessarily have anything that he urgently needed to distract from in the first term. And the reason that now they've released these files just as this Epstein fiasco is reaching a fever pitch, is to distract. We're going to continue covering this after the break on our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/the David Pakman Show. And I do Hope that you're getting the daily audio podcast. It's an hour a day audio podcast available free. You can get it on Spotify. You you can get it on Apple Podcasts as well. Quick break right back. You know, no matter how fast time seems to be flying by, it is never too late to make some progress. If you're saving for a big purchase like a home or a car and you need to build credit, Kickoff can help. They are the number one credit building app in the App Store. Plans start at just five bucks a month. No credit check, no hidden fees, no interest in if your credit is under 600, you could jump 28 points in your first month. Kickoff is a smart legal credit hack with no catch. No credit check, no hidden fees and no interest. You just make on time payments. Credit bureaus. See the good behavior and your credit grows. Start building credit immediately for only a dollar your first month. And with autopay you never have to worry about missing a payment. So you can build credit in your sleep. Sign up in minutes from your phone. No credit check. Cancel any time. Kickoff is the number one credit building app out there. With over 100000 positive reviews in the app stores, 98% are 5 stars. Building credit can happen faster than you expect with Kickoff. Don't wait and get your first month for just a dollar at get kickoff.com/pacman that's kickoff without the C. Get 80% off at get K I K off.com/pacman the link is in. The podcast notes offer applies to new customers first month only subject to approval Offer subject to change terms and conditions may apply. Points that based on Equifax Vantage Score 3.0 changes for kickoff users starting under 600 who made their first on time payment between January 2021 and March 2024. Payment and credit activity outside Kickoff can have an impact on your credit. Individual results may vary. Donald Trump has already packed his second term cabinet with loyalists. He's threatened deportation as political punishment. He's expanded executive authority in ways we have not seen in modern history. These are real changes that are happening right now. And what's even more alarming is that a lot of the media is either glossing over the worst of it or they're reframing it. So it all sounds a little more palatable. And that is why I use ground news. This is a news comparison tool. It doesn't just feed you headlines. It shows you. Here's how different outlets, left, right, center are covering the same story. And this is one of the few tools I know of that can really help you detect the political spin, the bias catch stories that your usual sources might downplay or not cover at all on everything from immigration policy to economic shifts. If you want to get a bigger picture, a broader picture of what's being reported, Ground News is an invaluable source of to keep you informed. And Ground News is offering my audience 40% off their top tier vantage plan. You'll only pay five bucks a month. Go to Ground News, slash Pacman or enter the code PACMAN in the app to get started. The link is in the Description the David Pakman show is an audience supported program. We must build the ecosystem and one of the best ways to do it is to directly support the shows that you value and that you like. It doesn't have to be this one. It can be any show. But to the extent that this is a show you like Our primary funding sources Our memberships on our website join pacman.com and paid substack subscriptions@substack. David pakman.com I also want to say an extra thank you to the several hundred of you that are members on both of them, my website and Substack Gold members. It's the real gold card. It's not paying Trump 10 million to be a citizen, it's getting both a website membership and a substack membership. Really appreciate all of you and remember that you can request a free membership at David pakman.com/free membership. Do remember that there are currently 4000 people waiting for free memberships. Donald Trump is absolutely terrified because of everything I told you in the first segment and he has gone completely psycho on social media. I am not going to plague and torture you by going through each post, but I do think it's relevant to mention that Donald Trump has spent the last 24 hours posting post after post after post to Truth Social. The comments are as unhinged and deranged as they are dangerous. And concerning Donald Trump endlessly posting videos of Tulsi Gabbard's press conference which was completely abortive, just a complete and total humiliation. Donald Trump is posting it as a badge of look at how great Tulsi is doing. Which by the way reinforces that Tulsi being willing to lay down and let Trump walk all over her and push this completely evidence free Obama treason sedition conspiracy theory is working to put her back in Trump's good graces. Trump talking on Truth Social media about Elon Musk and his companies. Trump posting endless conspiracy articles including from websites like the Gateway Pundit. Trump posting edits memes and AI videos of former President Barack Obama. Trump posting memes of himself with claims that are, forget about, unverified, obviously untrue. Like that Trump has secured over $5 trillion in investments, which what that even means, it's hard to even know Trump means. Trump posting videos of Caroline Levitt. Trump posting videos of Democrats supposedly messing up and looking stupid. Trump reposting tweets and excretions on X from random people who just support anything that Donald Trump does. Trump cheering what's happening in Poland? Trump talking about how Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang has talked about Trump as a possible element of America's AI success. We'll get back to that in a moment. Trump announcing a settlement with Columbia University of $200 million, which Republicans are absolutely titillated about. Understand a lot of this stuff is happening in the middle of the night. Some of these posts happening at bizarre times. Trump posting polling that he believes is favorable. Trump screenshotting tweets and posting clips of himself at the so called AI summit. Some of these posts coming in the middle of the night. So all of this behavior is a desperate, panicked, cornered Trump. We now have reporting that some of these nights, the reason that Trump is posting at all hours of the night is not because he's doing his sleeping four hours, because I'm so robust and only need a little bit of sleep. Some of these nights, Trump is reportedly up all night because he's terrified and anxious and panicking about what might come out. And of course, any casual observer of this sees that this is not the behavior of an innocent man. Any casual observer realizes that when you say to yourself, wait, if you're innocent, why wouldn't you want to release everything? Rather than send your former personal attorney Todd Blanche over to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, why would the Deputy Attorney General be involved in one sex trafficking case of this kind? It just doesn't make any sense. So Trump is terrified. And what is absolutely fascinating is that something happened yesterday that is only going to make Trump's base flip out even more. Tulsi Gabbard dropped a bomb yesterday and it is a bomb. And that is further triggering maga. And my question to you is whether Tulsi Gabbard here is simply doing what she thinks Trump wants her to do. Is she saying what she believes to be true? What is the motive here? Tulsi Gabbard was asked a really important question for Magas, MAGA Potamians and Maga Donians, they're all the same people. By the way, the question was, was Jeffrey Epstein connected to an intelligence agency? Now why is this relevant? This is relevant because among all of the closely held beliefs about Jeffrey Epstein, among magas, one of them is that Epstein was a tool of an intelligence agency. It might have been the CIA, maybe it was the Israeli Mossad, because after all, Epstein was Jewish. Was Epstein working for Israel? And it was all a psyop. They love this shit. Ok, the magazine believe this stuff. And Tulsi Gabbard was asked, can you, do you have any evidence of that? And Tulsi says, I have nothing that suggests that I'm Jeffrey Epstein. Can you rule out that he was connected in some way to any kind of intelligence, either foreign or domestic?
- [30:50]
Caroline Levitt
I haven't seen any evidence or information that reflects that. If anything comes before me, that that changes that in any way. Support the President's statement loud and clear. If any credible evidence comes forward, he wants the American people to see it.
- [31:07]
David Pakman
This is a nuclear bomb going off in maga's face. We have, I don't know what number of these MAGA people, but I'm talking about the people that breathlessly followed Cash Patel and Dan Bongino before. They were administration officials. They were convinced the Epstein thing is a psyop. It was either run by the CIA or the Mossad or maybe both. The reason that this is being covered up is because Epstein was an intelligence agent. And in comes Tulsi and she goes, I've got zero evidence to support that at this point in time. Now of course, if you look at the reaction in the usual places, the usual enclaves and bowels of the Internet about this, you hear stuff like, well, they've got Tulsi over a barrel. Of course the Mossad won't let Tulsi tell us the truth that Epstein was an Israeli agent and the entire thing was meant to ensnare politicians so they could then be blackmailed. And it goes on and on. You can go as many layers deep as you want with this stuff. But what's fascinating about Tulsi saying this and by the way, if there's evidence that Epstein was linked to some intelligence agency, put it out there, right? I say put everything out. Are Democrats caught up in this? Republicans? I don't care. I don't care. Just tell me the truth. But MAGA now, which already has started, 50% of Republicans as of last week's polling, believe that there is a cover up taking place here by the Trump administration about the full scope of the Epstein files. This is only going to feed the beast even more. So they've got a monster they built that has now gotten out of control and this is just exploding within maga and there are people going, well, she. She either knows Epstein was an intelligence agent of some kind and she's lying, or she is even being kept away from the truth of the matter. It's a full litany of conspiracies. But if you are trying to keep your base together, if you're Trump at a time when your base is as divided as it's ever been, Tulsi going we don't know anything about an intelligence agent. No, I haven't seen any evidence. It is only firing them up more now. We'll have more of this on our substack and the sort of implications and related elements, so make sure you're subscribed there substack David Pakman Dotcom we'll take a super quick break and be right back. I want to introduce you to an amazing tool that has helped a huge number of people reach their health goals. It is called Lumen and it's the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath and on the app it'll tell you are you burning fat or carbs? And give you tailored guidance to improve nutrition, workouts, even stress management. Your metabolism is like the engine of your body, how you turn food into fat fuel. And because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does, optimal metabolic health can translate to many benefits, including easier weight management and improved energy levels and fitness results. It's a long list. Lumen gives you recommendations to improve metabolic health based on the context of your breath measurement, whether that's first thing in the morning, before and after meals or workouts and and you can get 20% off your lumen by going to lumen.me/pacman that's L U M E N.me/pacman. For 20% off the link is in the podcast Notes do you ever feel like it's tough to stay focused? I've sometimes struggled with it and Brain FM's Focus Music has really helped me find my groove. I used to think background music from Spotify or YouTube would help me focus, but I ended up distracted and then I'd start looking for better tracks that would actually help. Then I found Brain fm. It's not just another music app, it's really music designed for when you are trying to do deep work. It's science back the modes can be for deep work or more creativity, focus or motivation. They have a turbo mode designed to support ADHD brains. Brain FM's music works within minutes and it delivers results. A peer reviewed study showed that Brain FM's music boosts attention, especially for people with adhd tendencies. Brain FM's Focus Music is the only music made to support ADHD brains and Brain FM is the only music app funded by the National Science foundation for because of their unique audio technology that changes the patterns in your brain. With Brain FM I am locked in, the distractions go away, the productivity just happens and my audience can try it for free for 30 days. When you go to brain.fm/pacman, you can get access to Brain FM's entire library of science supported Focus Music for an entire month totally free. I think you'll find it as useful as I do. Go to brain.fm pacman. The link is in the podcast Notes. Today we're going to be speaking for the first time to Democratic Congressman Jimmy Gomez, who represents California's 34th congressional district. This includes much of downtown L A and also East L A. So good to have you on. I really appreciate it.
- [36:48]
Tulsi Gabbard
Yeah, happy to be here.
- [36:49]
David Pakman
You know, I want to talk a little bit about this totally arbitrary goal that I don't, I can't say Donald Trump set, but maybe it was Stephen Miller of 3,000 deportations a day that's going on. You know, one of the incredible things that's happening is I don't judge a policy by how many people you can deport, but objectively the number of deportations is about half of that of which we saw under President Obama. And to me this shows sort of the mathematical bankruptcy of the idea that we're targeting individuals who have committed violent crimes. We're doing all these things. We know the administration has gone way beyond that and still they're not making this self imposed standard of 3,000 a day. What does that mean to you when you see that this is just completely flopping?
- [37:37]
Tulsi Gabbard
Well, it means that they don't really care about results, they just care about the show. They care about what it looks like. And that's why you see just an over militarization of the of ICE enforcement. I've talked to people who have been in this field for years and they say they never see ICE officials wearing the kind of equipment, wearing the kind of fatigues and the military vehicles. They never see that before. So all of this is for show to kind of like scare people, to intimidate people, to tell tell Trump's base that he's being tough. And I think Stephen Miller really does want to deport 3,000 a day. But because of that goal, they're just being even more reckless. And that's why you're seeing them just target people based on the color of their skin, the language they speak, or where they work. And I've been saying that for a while because it's Obvious there's over 500,000, 500,000 undocumented Canadians and Europeans in the United States, but you never see a raid targeting them. You never see them just randomly pulling over some white person. And I think it's because they don't. They don't care. They're just trying to meet this goal. And they're also leaving us vulnerable when it comes to the drug cartels, when it comes to human trafficking at the border, all of that, because they're pulling people off to do this work that is not to target people, that most of them don't have any criminal records. So. And it's highly expensive. Let me tell you. One operation, when they went to a swap meet, they had, I don't know, anywhere from 50 to 100 people in full gear. They rated that swap meet. They pulled out two people. This thing, I, you know, my guess, that this thing is costing anywhere from 80 to $100,000 per person that they detain.
- [39:23]
David Pakman
I want to talk about the racial component, because like you said, you know, you've asserted that there's definitely a targeting based on skin color here.
- [39:30]
Tulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- [39:30]
David Pakman
There's this interesting thing where I'm a Hispanic immigrant from Argentina. Right. But I'm white, and I moved here early enough where I speak English without an accent. I've talked to a lot of people who said, you know, David, even though on paper, especially as someone who strongly speaks out against this administration, on paper, I should be worried, but because of the way I look in the way I sound, I'm probably not going to be a priority, is the reality. So can you talk a little bit more about the racialized component here?
- [39:58]
Tulsi Gabbard
Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, you're definitely right. David, I didn't know you're Argentinian until I read your. Your bio. So it's. It's something that we know what's going on. They're targeting our communities, and they're targeting individuals that live in Latino communities. They're going. That's why you. That's why you've seen them arresting US Citizens. You've seen footage over and over where they're saying, I'm a citizen. And Then they have to prove it. Just, just the other day they targeted somebody in Norma Torres District. They beat him. They literally. He ran, which he never should have done. They beat him up and then they. He said I needed a doctor and he said I was a citizen and they dumped him off a few streets away. Right. Like, this is like. So they're obviously targeting people that look like me, that look like the people in my community. And it is based on race, no matter what people say. And I, what I always repeat is like, I don't know of any Ms. 13 gang members working day jobs as a day laborer. It just, it's just ridiculous. So no matter. And even Tom Holman even said they do it on appearance. So I think that we're going to have to keep pushing it because once they, like, once they. What happens if they, their numbers drop, drop, drop.
- [41:11]
David Pakman
Who.
- [41:11]
Tulsi Gabbard
Who do they go after next? That's the question I want people to think about. Who do they go after next?
- [41:17]
David Pakman
The visits to the detention facilities, I want to talk about a little bit because we've heard a lot about conditions in different places. There's kind of two categories. There's the facilities where members of Congress are being allowed in and then there's the situations where members of Congress are being turned away. Let's talk about the second part first. When, yeah. You and your colleagues are being turned away, who turns you away and what do they say? Do they say, oh, if you don't have an appointment or something, you can't come in? Or like, what's the justification for saying no?
- [41:47]
Tulsi Gabbard
Yeah, well, I started going to visit the facilities. I've been to them before, before all of this, this happened. But I went to this facility in downtown LA and like a day after the massive protest, but I went early in the morning with. To make sure that there was no one there. And that day they turned me away because they, they basically weren't cleared. Later in the day, they basically said in a press release that there was a thousand protesters outside and it was a dangerous situation. So that's why the members of Congress turned away. Well, there's, there was only reporters, my staff and, and a lot of attorney. That was it. It was about 20 people, but no thousand person. So it's like. So that was one lie. And then we went back and they said, you know what? It's not safe for you inside. I was, I kind of laughed. I'm like. Because the people that were telling me this were the folks who, you know, they're just the government affairs People, they're not, the, they're not, they don't have any equipment. They're placed dressed in plain clothes. They don't have any, like, weapons or anything. And they're telling me, telling me it's not safe inside for me. I said, well, first, if it's not safe inside for me, it's not safe inside for you.
- [42:54]
David Pakman
That's right.
- [42:54]
Tulsi Gabbard
And also if it's not safe inside, then it's not safe for the people that you're detaining. So they're, they kind of like, they're like, well, we're not making that. Just, we're not making the decisions. We're not running this facility. Then the third time, which was like the, the, the. I would say the most insulting thing, when I went back, they said it was because. And we talked to somebody in D.C. this time and they said it's because this is not a detention facility, even though it says Metropolitan Detention Center, Bureau of Federal Prison, this is a field office. And then they said it's a processing center. And I said, well, if they're not. I said, the law says any. And I read it, any, any facility that's detaining individuals, I get to go inside. And they're all, well, this is processing. I said, so are they free to leave? Right, so whatever. Like, so they're, they're just twisting themselves all into knots to basically not allow us to go in. And that's because I think these, these processing centers or field offices as they're calling them, are really where the most egregious overcrowding is where people have to sleep on the floor. I think you saw one that's very similar in the New York Times. They did a video and that was very similar to the one I'm going in. And those are only supposed to hold people up to 12 hours, up to 100 people sitting. So if people are saying they're longer than. There's nowhere to lay down, there's not enough food, they can get access to medicine. So this is why I think they're not letting us in is because the most egregious stuff is happening in these facilities. And they're also, this is where they kind of put pressure on them to sign expedited release forms, which that means that if they sign agree that they can be deported almost within 24 hours. So that's why, why I think they're keeping us from there. But those are the worst case scenarios.
- [44:42]
David Pakman
Now in terms of the places you have been able to get into. What, what have you observed, well, I.
- [44:48]
Tulsi Gabbard
Haven'T been in any of them recently.
- [44:51]
David Pakman
Oh, they have this. So you haven't succeeded at getting into any of them?
- [44:54]
Tulsi Gabbard
No. And. And then. Oh, yeah, and then we had to make an appointment. They said, hey, make an appointment with a week's three days notice. Then it became a week. We make the appointments and they cancel them either the day before or the day of. So they don't want us to see these facilities. My colleagues have been in these other facilities, and one of the things that they notice, especially here in California and Adelanto, is that a lot of the people there are not from California. So what they do, they tend to do is they, when they detain somebody and they put them in a detention center, they send them away from where they're actually living and staying. And I believe it's to keep them away from their attorneys, from their friends and families, their loved ones, so nobody can go and see them easily. And I think it's a. Just a deliberate. And so people kind of see that. My, My roommate, Darren Soto, went to go to the Alligator Alcatraz, which he said it was a, a joke, right? That they just came up with this idea. It's like some of the men are crowded into one sales, but then the whole thing is not even empty. It's. It's a boondoggle for whoever is getting the contract. $500 million for this facility with no, no water hookups, no electricity hookups. It's just not built. You could have built something permanent for 250 million next to the one that exists. So all of this for them is a show so they can, they can put it up on social media and feed it to their base. So, but here's the thing. People shouldn't be treated as props in their, in their show. They have certain rights and they should be respected for those rights, even if they're, quote, unquote, not, not citizens.
- [46:31]
David Pakman
I want to zoom out a little bit, and I was looking forward to talking to you because I know you're a straight shooter on a lot of this stuff. I'm very concerned about the next two to four years for the Democratic Party, and I'll tell you why. Over the last three months, I've had, you know, a dozen senators on a dozen of your colleagues from the House, half a dozen governors. Everybody's very nice, everybody has principles that mostly overlap with mine, all of that. But when it really gets down to it, even on some of the stuff like where I ask pretty straightforward questions about housing or tax rates, or whatever. And sometimes the answers are a little bit shaky and I push back a little bit. I'm not seeing that there is really an appetite right now for seriously examining sort of like what is the policy platform and importantly what is the coherent message looking to 2026 that goes beyond. I mean, listen, the immigration policy of this administration is a disaster. The on and off tariffs calculated, we don't even know how are a complete and total disaster. Yeah, the anti war president who bombs Iran. Right. On every aspect. Like it's all, it's all bad. There's no question about it. But then when we kind of get into it, I'm not necessarily getting, and my audience feels that they are definitely not getting what seems like a Democratic Party that is really ready to say here's why you vote for us beyond just like superficial talking points. And I'll give you one other data point that concerns me. This DNC autopsy on 2024 that is reportedly not considering whether part of the problem was Biden running for reelection to begin with, which to me seems like the issue. I think Joe Biden was a good president, but I think the mistake was running for reelection. How do you do an autopsy without considering that? I know I'm saying a lot, but this is like the 40,000 foot view of like, man, what are we up against next year? What's your take?
- [48:28]
Tulsi Gabbard
Well, I think you're absolutely right. People have to be honest when it comes to, when it comes to losses. And losses are awesome most of the time where people really do self reflection. But as a whole people don't like to do that. But that's what we have to do. And I believe the reason why we failed across the, across the country is that we did lose touch with why people are pissed off. I've been dealing with that in my district for a number of years. And it's not because I'm in a Dem R seat, I'm in a Democratic seat with hardly any Republicans. So when I'm running against another D, what I realize is there's no ideological anchor to say, hey, this guy's good, this guy's bad. So you really have to get into the weeds with people. Why are they so pissed off? And, and what it is is one, they do feel like the system is rigged. Right. That they, they work really hard to try to get ahead to go to school, then they're saddled with debt, then they would try to buy a house. Shit's too expensive. Right. So like they're pissed off and they're rightly pissed off because they feel like they got the short end of the, of the stick for nothing that they've done. And Democrats are just saying, especially in the last election, and I had this argument with my colleagues, they're saying, oh, things are great, these economic indicators are moving in the right direction. Well, all that bullshit, nobody cared because I noticed it, right. Being a dad, being on a, on a budget, I saw the prices go up, up and up and our savings started dropping, dropping, dropping, right. We start overspending here and there and, and that's what a lot of Americans felt. And so we're not addressing that, that primary frustration. And then people start automatically thinking, oh, it's because you guys are in the pockets of, of corporations or the pockets of the status quo. So it's like, no, fuck the status quo. I'll do whatever it takes to fight for my, for my district. So I think that's where people like didn't really lean into the fact that people were hurting. I always tell people, you have to focus on what people are telling you. Right. So I like cost of living, buying a house, raising a family and then taking on the establishment. You know, now it's Donald Trump and the billionaires, but taking on whoever the establishment way of thinking on how you fix problems to get it done, right. And that's all that people want. They want you to fight, they want you to understand what they're going through. So this administrator, so to one for this like elected officials to not really understand why they lost is a big problem and then not to self reflect as a party of the dnc, that's a big problem because you're not going to fix that. You know, one of the things I always tell people is what's his name? Pat Ryan and Chris Deluzio. We all three ran on the same messaging, lower the cost of living. For me it was housing and, and basically childcare and taking on the establishment to do it. What did they run? Lowering the cost of living, taking on the establishment to do it. Because people think that once we get there, they, we, we sell out. So we have to really kind of tackle that. But we do need big ideas, right? We need to like the housing affordability problem is one of the number one ideas. What's his name? Tucker Carlson. He was at Turning Point usa. What was he talking about? Yep, housing, right. They, if we don't move in a, in a big way to deal with that problem, they will and they're going to win those voters.
- [52:05]
David Pakman
Yeah, there's, you know, I was reflecting Back on President Obama's reelection campaign in if we just looked at economic metrics, things were looking pretty good at the end of Barack Obama's first term. And if we only looked at economic metrics, things were also looking pretty good at the macro level during Joe Biden's term. But one of the key differences, I think, is that when Mitt Romney was trying to go after Obama on economic issues, Obama didn't just go, everything's awesome, because if he did, it would have come off as tone deaf. And so what Barack Obama did was sort of cite the accomplishments, but say, we've got a lot more work to do here. I think Mitt Romney would do it the wrong way. I have the better ideas and I think that there was more of an acknowledgement that it wasn't working for everybody. That made people think, oh, I do want to vote to reelect Barack Obama, where maybe with Biden Harris, that recognition wasn't there.
- [53:01]
Tulsi Gabbard
Correct. And here's another thing, and I think it's kind of like along the lines of what you just kind of made me think about the reason why it's so important on how Democrats act now that we're willing to, you know, to throw down, to go after the files, to go after Donald Trump and Signal Gate and Whiskey Pete, you know, really hit them over and over and over. The reason why that matters is because if we don't do it now, they think that we're going to be passive if we get back into power.
- [53:31]
David Pakman
Right?
- [53:32]
Tulsi Gabbard
They're like, they want, like, they're like, they want to see us fight as a, as an indicator of what we will do if we get power back. Right? And that's the thing. It's like, if we get power back and try to do things the old way when Donald Trump's president, well, then the old problems will continue to fester. Everything from housing affordability to childcare to the climate change to everything is still going to fester. So it's like, in order to kind of break that, you need to show people when you're out of power, which is the hardest, is that you know how to fucking fight when you're out of power. That means, like, when you see these opportunities, you keep hitting them and you keep hitting them and you keep hitting them. One thing is, like, I tell people, if Donald Trump's theme is attack, attack, attack, ours has to be 10 times more, right? Stop playing by the old rules. So it's kind of the same thing when it comes to policy. What are you willing to do to actually fix the problems that Americans are facing. And so they're connected, but we have to know where people are at. Like if you don't know that people are struggling and you keep on talking about, oh, the fucking inflation rate's down, but yeah, but the prices haven't come down, yeah, then you're out of touch and people are not going to vote for you.
- [54:52]
David Pakman
All right, I hope your colleagues will listen to you over these next 14, 15 months. We've been speaking, speaking with Congressman Jimmy Gomez, who represents California's 34th congressional district. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you.
- [55:05]
Tulsi Gabbard
Thank you.
- [55:07]
David Pakman
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- [58:59]
Donald Trump
Just, you know, obviously the developments with.
- [59:01]
David Pakman
The Epstein case, with the judge.
- [59:03]
Caroline Levitt
But I, I wonder, has the White.
- [59:04]
David Pakman
House, White House counsel, the DOJ explored any other documents that could be released to the public that don't have to do with that grand jury testimony?
- [59:15]
Donald Trump
To my knowledge, the Department of Justice has moved forward with the request to unseal that grand jury testimony. And as you know, they have also moved forward with interviewing Ms. Maxwell, which I believe will be taking place very soon.
- [59:29]
David Pakman
So translation, translation no on the documents and no on public testimony from Ghislaine Maxwell, if we can help it. Ok, great question from another reporter. The question was there are people that were indicted as part of the Mueller investigation. If we now consider that supposedly it was all launched by Obama, it was treason, it was sedition. In other words, if the origins of even looking at Trump and Russia are criminal in nature, shouldn't the charges against all of the people indicted in the Mueller probe be dropped. And Caroline Levitt just goes, I know nothing about it.
- [60:16]
Donald Trump
Sure.
- [60:19]
Tulsi Gabbard
In connection with the Mueller investigation, a.
- [60:21]
David Pakman
Grand jury indicted 13 Russians.
- [60:25]
Tulsi Gabbard
President Putin has said he will never extradite those men. Given the new information that Ms. Gabbard has found, what's the administration's position on that case?
- [60:34]
David Pakman
Should those charges be dropped?
- [60:36]
Donald Trump
I don't have an update for you on that case, but I'll check in with the National Security Council and our team will get you something.
- [60:40]
David Pakman
It's funny, on that case, this, that case, this is a huge issue. Now, if the investigation on all into all of these individuals was predicated on treason and sedition by Obama, wouldn't it be natural that the charges would be dropped? No idea. And they're not going to give us any answer to that, that's for sure. Another reporter says, does Trump support federal agencies contracting with Elon Musk's AI company? Again, a question comes up. What about the existing contracts Levitt opts out? Again, Caroline, two questions for you.
- [61:20]
Donald Trump
The first one, does President Trump support federal agencies contracting with Elon Musk's AI company? I don't think so. No.
- [61:29]
David Pakman
He wouldn't want the DOJ to then.
- [61:31]
Donald Trump
Cancel the contract with. I'll talk to him about it.
- [61:33]
David Pakman
Yes, she's going to talk to him about it. He's going to talk. I'm sure we're going to get an answer any time. She is just willing to say anything she needs to. To. Next question. Does Trump believe Obama should go to jail? This is very far from saying no. Given what the DNI just said and laid out, does President Trump believe that President Obama should go to jail for something?
- [61:59]
Donald Trump
Look, the president believes that this matter needs to be thoroughly investigated and anyone convicted of crimes should be held accountable in this country. Go ahead.
- [62:07]
David Pakman
That is very important. Much not a no, Trump. No, Trump is not saying Obama needs to go to prison. That is not what she said at all. Caroline Levitt is competing with Tulsi Gabbard, who can lay down and become more of a doormat for Donald Trump. And there is nothing she isn't willing to say. It was a day at the White House yesterday and Donald Trump attempted to talk about technology. It didn't work. Well, remember, everything is computer, which Donald Trump said about Tesla vehicles. Well, now everything is a. A sweaty, disheveled Trump gripping the lectern tightly doesn't make one shred of sense.
- [62:48]
Pam Bondi
This is a nation that invented the light bulb, the telegraph, the television, the telephone, the computer chip, the smartphone. The gps, the integrated circuit, and even the Internet. Basically, we invented everything. What is left? We invented everything. And now it's AI. We invented everything. Does anyone have anything else to say?
- [63:18]
David Pakman
Totally gone. Just addled feeble. Trump mimicking trans athletes, which is something you would naturally do when talking about artificial intelligence.
- [63:30]
Pam Bondi
Right now, a man who transitioned came up and looked at the bar. How much is it? £212. Oh, let me try it. Bing bong. I think he broke the record by 109 pounds. It's going to be a long time. It's going to be a long time before a woman catches that. And these are great athletes and great people, and it's demeaning. And who the hell wants this with. We were off of that whole standard because I just tell you those.
- [64:00]
David Pakman
Yeah, Trump confused as usual, hateful as usual. But what the hell does this have to do with artificial intelligence? Now, Donald Trump claimed during this AI event that we have almost $17 trillion coming into the country. It's not clear whether Trump means thanks to tariffs. It's not clear whether Trump means thanks to deals that he made, but the entire American GDP is about $30 trillion. So whatever Trump means by this is not true.
- [64:29]
Pam Bondi
We're seeing trillions and trillions of dollars in new investments. So at this moment, we have almost $17 trillion coming into this country. There's never been a period of time like that, and that's in a period of.
- [64:42]
David Pakman
Even now isn't a period of time like that. What does Trump mean? We never really know. When Caroline Levitz asked to explain, she goes, I'm going to. I'm going to get information for you about exactly what Trump meant. Also related to AI, and I'm not joking. Is the topic of woke part of what Trump did yesterday sign executive orders banning woke AI. Anyway, Trump said that nobody likes woke anymore and they got rid of woke.
- [65:09]
Pam Bondi
And third, once and for all, we are getting rid of woke. Is that okay? Because I know you had a higher. You had to hire all woke people. I heard you had to hire all woke people under some of these things. How about the chips where they give?
- [65:23]
David Pakman
And third, I don't know who it is that had to hire all woke. None of it makes any sense whatsoever. And then finally Trump says it's no longer cool to be woke.
- [65:34]
Pam Bondi
Hanging around at all now. It's actually very uncool. As somebody told me the other day, it's so uncool to be woke.
- [65:42]
David Pakman
My takeaway, Trump knows nothing about artificial intelligence. And almost like the nuclear codes where we look around and we say, we're giving this guy access to the nuclear codes. Having Trump involved in anything related to artificial intelligence, which is a major thing. It's a major issue. I'm researching it for my forthcoming book, and it's just an issue that's going to affect society so much over the coming decades. The idea that Trump is having any involvement in that is terrifying. Here is a story so drenched in irony that it almost writes itself. Donald Trump, who begged the Supreme Court for broad presidential immunity when it comes to what he did, now is calling for Barack Obama to be prosecuted and presumably arrested for doing something that the Supreme Court said presidents are immune for. You almost can't make this stuff up. So let me rewind and see if I can effectively communicate to you the absurdity of this. Donald Trump, through Tulsi Gabbard, is now pushing this conspiracy theory that Barack Obama committed seditious treason for overseeing an investigation into whether Trump and Russia colluded, whether Russia meddled, whether it was possible Russia could hack an American election. What Trump is claiming is Obama tried to steal the election. He says it was a treasonous conspiracy. And he says, we've got to start going after people talking about criminal prosecution. But the twist is that Donald Trump's own lawyers in Donald Trump's own cases argued famously that presidents should be immune for prosecution for any official acts taken while in office. And the Supreme Court made this ruling, which many considered to be dangerous, where it basically agreed, the Supreme Court said a president has broad immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts and has presumptive immunity for other acts. So we're not even dealing with the facts of it because it's so absurd. Obviously, Obama. There's no evidence Obama did anything wrong or criminal. But imagine for a second that Trump was somehow right if what Obama did was an official act, and of course it was, as president, he directed government agencies to investigate. If that's true, then by Trump's own logic and by the Supreme Court decision that Trump got, Obama is completely immune from prosecution. Forget about the facts of the case. Forget about the statute of limitations, which, by the way, is another problem. Forget about all of it. Forget that it's all just built out of nowhere, out of a panic to protect Trump. In the Epstein scenario, by Trump's own arguments before the Supreme Court, Obama has immunity. But suddenly now Trump wants to carve it out. Oh, it's president presidential immunity for Trump, but not for Obama. But that's not how any of this stuff works. And the deeper issue, of course, is that Trump has always believed that the law should be bent to serve him personally. If he oversees a violent coup attempt, he gets immunity. If Obama oversees an intelligence investigation into foreign election interference that could theoretically, depending on what it finds, be bad for Trump, that's seditious treason. And this is because for Trump, it's, what are my personal interests? My personal interests are what matter. The interests of the country really don't. If something hurts Trump, it's bad for America. If something helps Trump, it's patriotic. And this is maybe the biggest tell here in terms of Trump's desperation. He's threatening former presidents openly. He's talking about treason. He's talking about crimes punishable by death. And it's all to distract from what's going on with the Epstein stuff and the tariff stuff that's not working, and the authoritarian plans. And the rest of us are sort of supposed to pretend this is normal. This is what authoritarianism looks like. You weaponize the courts, you redefine treason, you ignore your own legal arguments, and you say, we should go after my political enemies. And this time, it is a total boomerang. Presidential immunity. Trump wished for it. He got it from the court. But then it applies to Obama, and Trump, of course, is never going to acknowledge that. We've got a great bonus show for you today. Trump is now floating no tax on capital gains. I'll tell you who will benefit from that. You can probably guess. The EPA is now saying greenhouse gases don't endanger people. And the McCrones have filed a defamation suit against Candace Owens. This is a story we've been following for a while. All of that and more on today's bonus show. You can sign up at. Join pacman.com you can request a free membership at David pakman.com/free membership. And remember to get my daily show previews, Q&As and so much more on substack@substack.davidpakman.com I'll see you in all of those places. And I'll be back tomorrow, too. 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