← The David Pakman Show
The David Pakman Show
7/29/25: MAGA civil war is growing as Trump shocks British PM with incoherence
01:07:32
-- On the Show: -- Martin O'Malley, former Governor of Maryland and former commissioner of the Social Security Administration under the Biden administration, joins David to discuss Trump and Republicans' attacks on Social Security --Donald...
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- [00:08]
David Pakman
Welcome to the show, everybody. It is Tuesday, July 29, 2025. You know, if you had MAGA civil war over Ghislaine Maxwell on your 2025 bingo card, you win a lifetime supply of bleach or something. I don't know what to tell you because it is not something I had on my bingo card. And Donald Trump now, for the time being, refusing to rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell. We'll get to that later. She's the convicted sex trafficker who helped Jeffrey Epstein abuse his victims. That G. Lane Maxwell. When Trump was asked about pardoning her, he simply said, I'm allowed to do it, which is not a denial that he's planning to do it. We're going to get back to that a little bit later. But this is causing a real problem for Trump right now. And the blowback is starting to come from within maga. Even a guy with MAGA in his name, MAGA Mike Johnson, the current Republican speaker of the House, he is saying not only would she not really be correctly released from prison, she should be in prison for life, not the 20 years that she was sentenced to. Life in prison would be the appropriate punishment for life. G. Lane Maxwell. So this is not a vague distancing. This continues to be the sort of bubbling of the MAGA civil war that we are seeing over this issue. And I'll be completely frank. I would not have predicted that this was going to be what rips MAGA apart. So let's go to MAGA Mike Johnson on MSNBC where he was asked about this, and here's what he had to say.
- [01:47]
Mike Johnson
If you're asking my opinion, I think 20 years was a pittance. I think she should have a life sentence at least. I mean, think of all these unspeakable crimes, and as you noted earlier, probably 1,000 victims. I mean, you know, this, this is. It's hard to put into words how evil this was and that she orchestrated it and was a big part of it, at least under, under the criminal sanction, I think is an unforgivable thing. So, again, not my decision, but I have great pause about that, as any reasonable person would.
- [02:17]
David Pakman
So that is not a vague distancing. That's like a moral sledgehammer from Mike Johnson, who's usually kind of attached to Trump at the hip, like a toddler to an iPad. Not my toddler, but, you know, you go to restaurants, you see these toddlers on the iPads. And it's not just MAGA Mike Johnson, you know, we also have Congressman Thomas Massie, who is not really a MAGA guy, he's a Republican. He's not as much of a MAGA guy, more of a fiscal conservative, we might say. He also said that if Maxwell has information, she should testify, but did not back a pardon. And so you've got these cracks forming in the dam. Some of them are being exposed on national tv. And you've got to recognize that Trump's playing a very dangerous game here. He knows that these Epstein files are radioactive. On the one hand, the contents are radioactive. If they come out, it's almost certainly bad for him. It doesn't mean he committed a particular crime. We just don't know. We don't have evidence of that right now. But just what Trump knows would be in there about him and, or his friends is very bad at the same time. And by the way, and he knows that Ghislaine Maxwell has names, obviously, and he knows that his name, his friends, would be some of those names. So he seems to sort of be not ruling out a pardon to keep her close or maybe open the possibility of shutting her up. But then on the other hand, Trump is quickly learning that any discussion of the fact that the Epstein files haven't been released, even though he's got high level people in his administration, the FBI director, the deputy FBI director and others who said, once Trump wins, we're going to get full transparency on Epstein, you're going to see everything. That's also a problem for Trump when it comes up and his voters remember, wait a second, he hasn't released the stuff he said he was going to release. So there's this radioactivity. Either way, the twist sort of is that by even entertaining the idea of pardoning someone who helped to traffic minors for sex, Trump is handing his enemies, including in his own party, a loaded weapon. And it's all because of what happened over the last four or five years. MAGA ran on we protect the children against these Democratic pedophile rings or Pizza Gate. All this sort of stuff and the conspiracy elements of it, the groomer accusations, the Q Anon cultism, and it all centers around this apocalyptic idea that Democrats are enabling child abuse. John Podesta and Killery were doing it or whatever. And then as it sort of zeroed in on Epstein as a kind of flag flashpoint in this battle against child sex abuse that Republicans claim to be waging, it got extraordinarily specific and real. And now that's the element that is backfiring on Trump. And he ends up publicly flirting with pardoning arguably one of the worst offenders alive, a woman who facilitated a thousand victims being victimized, as MAGA Mike Johnson's said. So it is hypocritical. MAGA hasn't really cared about hypocrisy for a long time, but it's a sort of political arson that we have now a situation where MAGA leaders are on record breaking with Trump. And it's not over taxes, it's not over tariffs, it's over Ghislaine Maxwell. So this is how civil wars start. It's someone finally saying, I can't defend that. That's just not something I can't defend. So the question we now find ourselves with is, are these cracks going to turn into a crevasse, for lack of a better term, maybe not, maybe not yet. But the fact that we're even having this conversation about this issue should really scare the hell out of Trump's inner circle. And we have a lot of reporting and evidence that it is really scaring Trump. And we'll get back to that later. Donald Trump visibly shocked British Prime Minister Keir Starmer into disbelief over his incoherence. Donald Trump was asked about, among other things, yes, Jeffrey Epstein. And Trump says he never had the privilege. The privilege of going to Jeffrey Epstein's island. The privilege. A shocking, shocking press conversation in Scotland where things are going from bad to worst for the failed orange president.
- [06:58]
Donald Trump
That was it. I'm glad I did, if you want to know the truth. And by the way, I never went to the island. And Bill Clinton went there supposedly 28 times. I never went to the island. But Larry Summers, I hear, went there. He was the head of Harvard and many other people that are very big people. Nobody ever talks about them. I never had the privilege of going to his island, and I did turn it down, but a lot of people in Palm beach were invited to his island.
- [07:27]
David Pakman
I never had the privilege of going to Jeffrey Epstein's island. Also, why is Trump bringing up the island out of nowhere? He always seems to have this guilty conscience and he wants to defend himself even against things that haven't been brought up. The privilege. And why is he still calling him Bill Clinton? I just don't understand. The topic continued, and Donald Trump weighed in on his break with Jeffrey Epstein, during which he didn't talk to Jeffrey Epstein for years. And it wasn't because Trump learned what Jeffrey Epstein was up to with regard to underage girls. It wasn't because Trump said, I can't be involved with child sex trafficking. It was, I guess, Because Epstein hired some people out from under Trump, and that's why they didn't talk for years. Listen to this. Going from bad to worse, lying and confessing all at once.
- [08:29]
Keir Starmer
Can you settle that?
- [08:29]
David Pakman
What was it about? What caused the breach?
- [08:32]
Donald Trump
That's such old history. Very easy to explain, but I don't want to waste your time by explaining it. But for years, I wouldn't talk to Jeffrey Epstein. I wouldn't talk because he did something that was inappropriate. He hired help. And I said, don't ever do that again. He stole people that work for me. I said, don't ever do that again. He did it again, and I threw him out of the place. Persona non grata. I threw him out. And that was it.
- [09:02]
David Pakman
That was it. Persona non grata. That's one word, by the way. Persona non grata. Very long word. That really says a lot. It really says a lot about Trump that he goes, no, no, no. I came to have a real problem with Epstein. What, child sex trafficking? No, no. He hired people from my club. And I said, jeffrey, don't do. Don't do that. And then he did it again. It's a real problem. Trump asked, are you considering pardoning G. Lane Maxwell? And Trump now with his classic reflexive answer. I'm allowed to pardon her if I want to. Which, of course, we know different.
- [09:43]
Donald Trump
Maybe it's not. I don't know, but maybe it's slightly different.
- [09:46]
David Pakman
Mr. President, really rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell? Is that something you would ever consider?
- [09:52]
Donald Trump
Pardon for who?
- [09:53]
David Pakman
For Khaleen Maxwell?
- [09:55]
Donald Trump
Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's approached me with it. Nobody's asked me about it. It's in the news about that, that aspect of it, but right now, it would be inappropriate to talk about it. So there you go.
- [10:15]
David Pakman
Now, I have been doing a lot of thinking about this, and I'm starting to lean in the direction of a likely outcome here will be. Ghislaine Maxwell ends up naming names. She names some Democrats, maybe some Republicans, but she says Trump did nothing wrong. She will be praised by maga. We finally got the truth. Our Lord and savior, Donald Trump had nothing to do with it. And then down the line, Trump's going to pardon her because she bravely told the truth and she was railroaded. That's. That's the way this is shaping up for me. Now, Trump was asked about Pam Bondi briefing him and saying that he was told that he's in the files. And Donald Trump then goes to. It's all a hoax and they made it up on the Epstein files or.
- [11:17]
Keir Starmer
Your name has not appeared in the abstinence.
- [11:20]
David Pakman
But doesn't the AG have to tell you if your name.
- [11:24]
Donald Trump
Well, I haven't been overly interested in it. You know, it's something. It's a hoax.
- [11:28]
David Pakman
That's, that's a lie. We know that Trump has deputized the FBI to tell him every damn time that his name overlaps with something Epstein related. But he's pretending now. I'm just not worried about it.
- [11:40]
Donald Trump
And built up way beyond proportion. I can say this. Those files were running by the worst scum on earth. They were run by Comey, they were run by Garland, they were run by Biden and all of the people that actually ran the government, including the auto pen. Those files were run for four years by those people.
- [12:04]
David Pakman
By the way, what does it mean to run a file they had?
- [12:07]
Donald Trump
Anything, I assume they would have released it. The whole thing is a hoax. They ran the files. I was running against somebody that ran the files. If they had something they would have released. Now they can easily put something in the files that's a phony. Like as an example, Christopher Steele, a person you know well happens to be from your country. But Christopher Steele as an example, wrote a book at dossier. We call it the fake news dossier. And the whole thing thing was a fake, right?
- [12:39]
David Pakman
Why can't you just acknowledge and admit the files don't exist and they were made up by Comey to have Trump's name in them. Why can't you accept that? And of course we're familiar with this talk. When Trump talks about hoax, what he's doing is he's setting up claims that it's inauthentic so that if it does come out and if Trump is implicated in some way, if his name is all over these files, he can say to Maga, I told you that these were fake. These, these are completely concocted, contrived and fabricated. My instinct is that this doesn't really seem to be going away. Now, finally, wildly, Trump claims the more Epstein files talk there is, the better it is for him. Unfortunately, this does not comport with the truth.
- [13:25]
Donald Trump
I just don't. When you, you know, when you talk about files, I just keep going back and other people too. Even the enemy says this thing is not correct because if we had it, we would have used it on the guy. It's a bad issue. They say it's a good issue for Trump. Do you know that my poll numbers are up four and A half points.
- [13:46]
David Pakman
Since four and a half. Not four, not five, but four and a half.
- [13:50]
Donald Trump
This ridiculous Epstein stuff. My poll numbers have gone up four and a half points because people don't buy it, okay? People don't buy it. And he's gone. And we want to focus on trade deals. I want to focus on the deal we just made with the European Union, which is the biggest trade deal in history.
- [14:09]
David Pakman
So now Trump goes off topic. Couple interesting things about his claim that his polls are better than ever since the Epstein stuff came up. If it were true that Trump's polling was up, since the Epstein stuff became a big issue. Polling being up doesn't mean that you are morally right or that you've done nothing wrong. Like polling might be up or it might not be up. It also happens not to be the truth, that polling is up. If we just zoom out and look at the Gallup presidential approval, Trump's down from 47 to 40. So that's almost a 20% decline since he took office. And if you look at any serious poll, you will see that the Epstein stuff is not helping Donald Trump. So we're going to follow it. We're going to follow the Ghislaine Maxwell pardon, we're going to follow the MAGA Mike Johnson saying, don't do a pardon. But this is getting very bad. Trump knows it and this is why he's reportedly regularly raging about it. And we'll get back to that. Make sure you're subscribed to the free podcast on Spotify and on Apple Podcasts. We're going to take a super quick break and the show will continue. You know, I'll often talk to my friends about what do we really think is private on our computers and on our phones. And many people believe that their emails are genuinely private. And it turns out that a lot of the email services are looking at your emails and can look at your emails even after you have deleted them. Which is why I recommend our sponsor, Start Mail, a trusted name in secure email for more than a decade. Start Mail is based in the Netherlands. Netherlands is known for very strong data protection laws. Your emails won't be scanned, your emails won't be tracked. Start Mail will block those invasive tracking pixels so you won't be monitored by companies and by hackers. And when you delete an email in Start Mail and it is gone for good, your data stays private. They are all in on this. With a ton of features, including aliases to keep you anonymous, strong encryption with your emails, it is super easy to move to Start Mail. It's a few clicks. Migrate your emails, migrate your contacts. You really can't go wrong. Try Start Mail for yourself completely free for seven days at start mail.com/pacman, which will also give you 50% off your first year. That's star t mail.com/pacman for a seven day free trial and 50% off your first year. The link is in the podcast Notes Many of us know all too well about the sticking, rubbing and chafing that you can get with traditional underwear. Our sponsor, Sheath Underwear have created unique boxer briefs with multiple ergonomic compartments in the front, which prevents skin on skin and that means everything stays separate, comfortable, dry and cool. You will have a boost of confidence when you're out and about. I've known so many people who were skeptical about those compartments. Friends who say, I heard that ad for sheath. What about those compartments? And then they try it and then they're amazed at the comfort and breathability. And when they finally try it, you will thank yourself. Plus Sheath has brand new materials like bamboo and mesh for even more cooling comfort. They will be the most comfortable pair of boxer briefs you ever put on. No more sweatiness and chafing and readjusting, especially at the gym. It's a lifesaver. Give Sheath underwear a shot. I've had a great experience. I think you will too. Head over to sheathunderwear.com pacman and get 20% off with code PACMAN. That's sh underwear.com/pacman use code PACMAN for 20% off. The link is in the podcast Notes as an audience supported independent media program, we depend primarily on your support. The two most direct ways to support this show Become a member@join pacman.com become a paid substack subscriber@substack. David pakman.com and I want to thank what we believe are about 240 people who right now have memberships to both the website and to the Substack. We are also adding a number of additional substack lives that I'm going to be doing, including, let me actually tell you, I'm doing one today with Today Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I'm doing one tomorrow with former Deputy Trump Press Secretary Sarah Matthews. We're finalizing a schedule with Robert Reich to join me on the Substack Live. These will later appear on the show as well, but you can get them live as they happen over on Substack. And remember that if you sign up@join pacman.com for a website membership you can use the coupon code. It will end soon. To save about 50%, a disoriented Donald Trump had a golf course meltdown, visibly swatting away flies that wouldn't leave him alone. On what was effectively the most expensive golf trip in the world, paid for by me and you, the American taxpayers. We learned today the real purpose of Donald Trump's trip to Scotland and trip to Europe, and it was to open his new golf course and to have us fund it by saying, this is a government trip. The White House even broadcast Trump's opening of his golf course as an official event. And Trump saying, we stopped five wars. Where he gets these claims, we don't really know when.
- [20:11]
Donald Trump
Yesterday, as you know, we stopped a war, but we stopped about five wars. So that's much more important than playing golf. As much as I like it. Much more important. I want to just thank Sarah Malone for having been with us right from the beginning. She was young and not experienced. Now she's still young and very experienced. So I just want to thank you.
- [20:34]
David Pakman
And of course, of course, the natural question is if to Trump, stopping wars truly is more important than playing golf, why is he playing golf while the wars he said he would end are still raging out of control? Don't know the answer to that. Donald Trump swarmed by flies. I know that there is religious meaning religions that I don't follow, but I know that there are these sort of, I guess we would call them apocalyptic rapture Christian types who will write to me about the biblical meaning of being swarmed by flies in this way. I don't remember if it's like Mark of the Beast or there's some kind of meaning for it. Quite frankly, I don't care. But if you believe that, then you should be very worried that Trump was completely unable to get away from endless flies. While on the golf course, a reporter yelled about Trump's next conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, also a horrible person like Trump. They have that in common. And what Trump says is absolutely terrifying. Listen to this.
- [21:43]
Donald Trump
What will you say next? The Benjamin Netanyahu.
- [21:52]
Keir Starmer
Thank you very much.
- [21:53]
David Pakman
We're working, working together. We're going to try to get things straightened out for the world. You know, if straightening out the world depends on Donald Trump working together with Benjamin Netanyahu, I don't know that that's a world I want to live in. I mean, let's just bring everybody together. Get Putin, get Kim Jong Un, get Orban, and let's let them straighten out the world, right? Terrifying. Terrifying. Stuff. Trump taking a break from attacking the media by saying that during this golf course event, he was able to restrain himself from using the term fake news. Attaboy.
- [22:33]
Donald Trump
To all of our great friends, thank you very much. So I'll be playing quickly and then I'll be heading back. And I look forward to that, but I really look forward to playing. So thank you, everybody, and thank you to the media. The media has been terrific. Believe it or not. I didn't use the. See, I didn't use the word fake news one time. Not one time. Today they're not fake news. Today they're wonderful news. But I just want to thank you. They treated us really well and they respect what we've done. Really.
- [22:59]
David Pakman
There you go. And then finally, as the orange man continued to ramble incoherently, even Fox News cut away.
- [23:06]
Donald Trump
Going to be a special decade, and we're going to make all of our countries strong and great and really wonderful again. And that's happening.
- [23:13]
Joe Rogan
All right, there you have it. President Trump and that beautiful, beautiful scene in Scotland. The President.
- [23:17]
David Pakman
There you have it. Except he wasn't anywhere near done. You know, I would love to talk to some magazines and say to them, do you feel good about paying for this trip? Because I don't. I paid for this golf trip. You paid for this golf trip. What was accomplished? Trump went to Scotland, played a crap ton of golf, humiliated himself in front of EU and UK leaders and attacked the media and played coy with the possibility that he might give a pardon to convicted child sex trafficker G. Lane Maxwell. Not exactly what I like paying for with my taxes, but maybe the magazines are different on that one. Donald Trump has always believed in one simple truth. And that truth is that if you're loud enough, nothing sticks to you. If you rage hard enough and the headlines move on, you can move on. Sometimes you do it by yelling witch hunt. And the ghosts will disappear. And for a long time, it has worked, but it seems to be failing this time around because this isn't Stormy Daniels. This isn't the Mueller probe. This isn't a late night monologue from Stephen Colbert where he can get him fired. This is Jeffrey Epstein. This is a name soaked in some of the darkest rot. And it's a name that keeps boomeranging back at Donald Trump and dragging him along with it. And for the first time in a long time, reports are that Trump is terrified. Behind the scenes inside the White House, sources are saying that it is a constant, seething, raging meltdown. Blaming aides. Why can't you make this story go away. Snapping at his attorney general, Pam Bondi, at his deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino, snapping at anyone within reach, not because they simply failed to stop the scandal, but because it is now touching him. And the thing to understand about Donald Trump is that it's never about the ethics or the morality of anything. It's never about guilt or innocence. It's about image, power, dominance and coming out on top. And this Epstein mess isn't just a scandal. This is a threat to what Trump guards more jealously than anything, his legacy. As we talked about yesterday, in the context of is this becoming like Nixon's Watergate? Trump built his brand on control. I control everything. I'm the kingmaker. I'm the billionaire genius. Only I can fix it. But you look at what the Epstein story is doing and you see how it's really turning Trump into a punchline. His base, the true believers, anyway, the Red Hat faithful, we might call them, they want answers. Rogan wants answers. Rogan is turning on Trump. We'll get to that. And Trump doesn't have any answers because he did promise the files. Mostly the people working for him did. Trump started to back away, but he said, I'm going to be transparent. We're going to have truth. And now he wants you to believe both that the files don't exist. And they do exist, but he's not in them. And they do exist, but he's in them. But only because Comey and Hillary Clinton, as he says, and others put his name in there. His own Justice Department says Epstein died by suicide. No client list, no further investigations, no arrest. Case closed. But his followers just aren't buying it. The press isn't buying it. The public's not buying it. But most importantly, his own base isn't buying this thing. And these are the people that he taught. Don't believe what the government tells you. Don't believe what the FBI tells you. You got to find the Deep state pedophiles. And now they are starting to wonder, is Trump one of those Deep State? And again, pedophile is not the right word. We're not talking about prepubescent girls, but we are talking about legally children here. So Trump does what he always tries to do. He tries to distract, deflect. Let's declassify JFK and MLK files. Let's have Tulsi trot out a new Obama conspiracy theory. Let's say it's a Democrat hoax. Let's say Jim Comey did it. But this stuff isn't sticking because the rage is too loud and it's a very dark stain, a proverbial stain, at least as far as we know. And, and every single one of these tantrums is feeding, feeding the fire. And 50% of Republicans as of two weeks ago came to believe that the Trump administration is covering up the truth of the Epstein scandal. This, if we zoom out, is fundamentally about a guy whose biggest fear is being revealed as a fraud. I'm this great businessman, actually. A bunch of your businesses went bankrupt, and if you had put the money you inherited into a total stock market index fund rather than doing anything with it, you'd have more money today than you actually have. Oh, no, he's a fraud. That's his biggest fear. And the Epstein scandal doesn't just make him look guilty, it makes him look weak as well, because he had all these years of dominance dominating everybody. Other people were afraid of him. And this empire of intimidation is starting to crumble. And it doesn't even have to do with Democrats. Democrats didn't do anything genius. I can't think of the last time Democrats did anything genius. It's a party that's got some real problems here, but it's the ghosts of Mar A Lago past that are now coming out and nobody can clean it up. It's not about justice. It's really about legacy and how Trump is going to be remembered. And he wants to go out as a king. But if this keeps up, he might go out as something very different. This Epstein scandal does not seem to be going away, period. I think Trump knows why it's not going away, and that's why he is raging, because he is part of the scandal. So if you said, David, where will this be in two weeks? I have no idea. But it doesn't seem that this is going to go away. Fox Business was rolling out their usual trumpanomics infomercial for the last several weeks about tariffs, and suddenly it ran into regular Fox News. This is really interesting. The big picture of what we're about to see is that Fox is trying to spin up as down, left, as right, day as night when it comes to Trump's tariffs. Brian Kilmeade was interviewing Charlie Gasparino, who's a Fox Business correspondent. And I've got to tell you, sometimes on this economic stuff, Charlie Gasparino just tells the truth. And the truth, of course, is that tariffs are import taxes and they make stuff more expensive for Americans and Americans pay for the tariffs. That's what he tried to explain to Brian Kilmeade Brian Kilmeade didn't like it. Take a look at this. This is really good stuff on that.
- [30:16]
Brian Kilmeade
So Charlie, I hear you, but it's hard for me to think that this is the type of deal that would have been done in his first term because between the whole Russia thing and people not taking him seriously, I think if you look at where we were in April and then see what's come in from Indonesia to the Philippines, now the Japan, Vietnam and now the eu, I think he's pretty much defying almost all of his critics that he didn't have a plan. What about this 50% tariff on EU steel and aluminum? The big picture there would. How is that going to affect all of us?
- [30:50]
Charlie Gasparino
Well, it's gonna theoretically, if we need to buy steel from them, it's gonna cost us more. I mean. Oh, again Brian, you kind of put this in context. Every penny we get from them is being passed to the US consumer.
- [31:07]
David Pakman
So remember, not necessarily right.
- [31:09]
Brian Kilmeade
It's got to be the choice necessary.
- [31:14]
David Pakman
Companies.
- [31:15]
Charlie Gasparino
Some companies will eat it for now.
- [31:17]
David Pakman
They have so far look at Kilmeade does not want to let Gasparino actually explain so far.
- [31:25]
Charlie Gasparino
But remember, companies don't report to the president. They report to shareholders and they have a fiduciary responsibility for profit margins. And at some point and, and that point is coming, I mean you can see it. There are, there are admin price increases on certain goods. I mean there's no doubt and you know this, this deal has just been cut. So I would just say this is good, it good to have a trade deal. It's better than by the way, 15% is manageable. It's not going to blow up the global system. But let's be real clear here. You know, tariffs cost, they're a tax. Oh that tax often gets passed on to consumers.
- [32:03]
David Pakman
Right.
- [32:04]
Brian Kilmeade
Unless they want to make it here.
- [32:08]
David Pakman
Now we've gone into tariffs deeply so many times now Brian, Kilmeade is theoretically right, unless they want to make it here. But do you know how long it takes to onshore steel manufacturing at the level that the United States needs it? And do you know how much the steel would cost? And you're still passing on that increased cost to consumers. And what Gasparino did here with Kilmeade is he kind of broke a sacred rule of Trump era media, which is you're not supposed to tell the audience that tariffs are taxes. Companies don't explain that. When Trump says we're making money off of tariffs, what he means is we are charging American companies tariffs. And you're definitely not supposed to say that. The money ends up being passed. The cost of that ends up being passed to consumers. Here's one more of this same discussion.
- [33:02]
Brian Kilmeade
Just show everyone at home. This is essentially 15% across the board tariffs. So we're going to get some more income. No tariff. And U.S. exports.
- [33:10]
David Pakman
You know what, there's, there's overlap here in these clips. I don't even think we need to look at this clip. What's the, what's the takeaway here? Trump wants you to believe that tariffs are some kind of populist win. They're awesome for the average American because other countries are paying. The math is really easy. You put a tariff on European steel, the price of everything that uses steel is going to go up. So cars will cost more. Appliances that you steal will cost more. Buildings. Everything's going to go up. That cost is paid by American companies and they will pass it to you. France doesn't pay the tariffs. Germany doesn't pay the tariffs. Your next washing machine will cost you more and you will pay that. The money goes to the federal government. It is a tax increase on a working class American who says I'm going to buy a thing. And it's dressed up and as this populist, nationalist, whatever. And the way Trump world wants to spin it is the tariffs aren't taxes, they give us leverage. The tariffs aren't inflationary, they're actually patriotic. And the tariffs aren't hurting you, they are helping the country. But even Fox guests in this case, he's sort of a reporter for Fox Business, but a guest on Fox News even he can't keep up the lie. And he's even sort of deferring in some sense saying, you know, their companies could eat it. And 15% on some of this stuff isn't that bad. But when you go to the store and you pay more money for a fridge, it doesn't matter how many flags are waving behind Trump as he announces more tariffs, you are footing the bill. And we're going to expand this economic discussion with some additional investigation on the existing effect of these tariffs that have already taken place. It will be on my substack. Substack.david pakman.com look for that sometime later this week. Have you ever wanted to feel more connected to your partner but found that daily life gets in the way? There is an app designed specifically to help couples deepen their bond called Paired. Our sponsor, Paired gives you daily personalized questions, quizzes, fun games, really just crafted to inspire meaningful and enjoyable conversations with your partner. And you won't see your partner's answers until you've shared your own. So it's like a safe, genuine space for honest dialogue and discovery. Recently, one Paired prompt asked, what's something you admire most about your partner? Answering this simple question created a conversation with my girlfriend and highlighted things that we sometimes overlook. The Paired app is a great daily reminder of the qualities that make relationships special. Whether you're just starting to build your connection or you've been together for years, Paired helps make it easy and enjoyable to strengthen your relationship. And it's just five minutes a day. Head to paired.com/pacman for a seven day free trial and 25% off your subscription. That's P A I R E D.com/pacman the link is in the podcast Notes when it was time for a new mattress, I didn't want to gamble on something generic. I had heard about Helix. I like that they customize the mattress based on how you sleep. I'm mostly a stomach sleeper, so I took the quiz and ended up with a model that felt tailored to me. I've had it for years. What I notice is I don't wake up with back stiffness. I don't wake up with shoulder pain. I don't toss and turn looking for a comfortable position. It's just better than my old mattress. It's more supportive, but it's still comfortable. Another thing I like about Helix is that there's no one size fits all approach. It's really tailored to you in terms of firmness as well. It's made a difference for me and I'm thrilled to be partnering with them. And right now Helix is running a huge sale, 27% off site wide, plus a free bedding bundle that's a sheet set and a mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. Go to helix sleep.com/pacman to check it out. The link is in the description. It's great to welcome to the program today. Martin o', Malley, former Governor of Maryland, former Commissioner of the Social Security Administration under the Biden administration. It's really great to have you on. And you know, a lot has been said about Medicaid vis a vis this recent tax bill that has been passed. But I'm interested in digging in a little bit on Social Security with you today. And one of the things, just as a sort of jumping off point, is that the President, President Trump, has said a number of times now we did no taxes on Social Security. He Said this at a number of public appearances, and when I looked at the bill, I didn't see that in there. Do you know what he's talking about when he says that?
- [38:06]
Keir Starmer
Yeah, all during the campaign, and I know this because I, you know, was talking to people in reception areas and field offices all over the country, including. But in, in swing states, and especially in swing states, Donald Trump's campaign pounded away, pounded away that Harris wants to tax your Social Security benefits and let illegal immigrants bankrupt the program. So he continues to say he repealed all taxes on Social Security because that was something he was jumping up and down about during the campaign. Kind of fought the Democrats to even on, who do you trust the most on Social Security? First time I'm told that by AARP that they've ever seen that happen. So it's my understanding that the, that what the bill does is it creates a deduction for seniors that lowers the, Reduces the numbers of them that will pay any taxes at all. But there is no repeal of attacks on Social Security benefits. The. As I understand, as I came to understand it, you know, so much, so much, David, I learned while I was doing that job from really expert, seasoned senior executive people. Yeah, it is true that we have had a sense of, I believe, since 1983, a policy of having a tax, you know, your income tax apply to your Social Security benefits, provided you're at a level where you pay any income tax at all. Of course, many, many, many seniors living alone pay no income taxes. As a practical matter, however, when you do, those dollars go into the trust fund and back to Social Security. So this bill had the strange effect of reducing the amount of dollars that come into Social Security, but without actually repealing the tax on Social Security benefits, but in a roundabout way, increasing deductions for some seniors. So that, that lowered their tax burden.
- [40:20]
David Pakman
I guess it's certainly easier for Trump to just say we repealed taxes on Social Security because that may be the depth of his understanding of it.
- [40:28]
Keir Starmer
Yeah. And if he just, he, you know, and what he's a lead practitioner of the big lie and just saying things over and over and over again. He, he does have a diabolical genius for simplifying things, even if it's with total falsehoods. And, and so that's, and, and that's a lot of what he's been doing to Social Security with the, the big lies about illegal immigrants bankrupting the program, when the point of the fact, the truth of the matter is illegal immigrants receive no benefits at all. They're prohibited by law from ever receiving benefits, but they do contribute 26 billion a year to you and to me and to everybody else that's beneficiary in the program. The other big lie that he constantly told, even dialed up Elon Musk's big lie after it was exposed, is that there's this zombie apocalypse of millions and millions of dead people receiving checks. It's not true. It doesn't happen. There is not, you know, a new episode of the walking dead with 12 million people, size of the state of Illinois roaming around our country with, you know, checks spewing out of their cadavers pockets.
- [41:39]
David Pakman
So I actually, I wanted to ask you as someone who would know what the most likely explanation is for that. Because when I heard Elon Musk or whoever say, oh, we found 30,000 people who are over 150 years old. And then these numbers, what I am, you know, often there's some kernel of reality in these claims. And so what I imagined was there are people who would be that old today based on their birth date, but they're not receiving any benefits and they're just listed on some ledger somewhere. I mean, as someone who knows how the system works, is that the most likely explanation or do you think it was completely fabricated?
- [42:15]
Keir Starmer
Yeah, that's what you just said is true. There are people there, there are people who don't have a death date listed on their record, but that doesn't mean that those people are still receiving checks.
- [42:29]
David Pakman
Right?
- [42:29]
Keir Starmer
So they, they, the fact that they haven't even come forward with any, you know, any, any proof of this, even as much as, as much as they said it again and again and again. But what they found was that a lot of people believed it. True story. I went to see an ophthalmologist. I didn't know the gentleman before, but we get old and our wives make us go do things more regularly. And this guy has my chin locked into one of those things, you know, and he's getting the sharp object close to my eye.
- [43:01]
David Pakman
Oh yeah.
- [43:01]
Keir Starmer
And he says, so Mayor, what have you been up to lately? I said, well, I had the honor to lead the Social Security administration. And he said, wow, that must have been a real message with all of those millions and millions of dead people receiving. And so a lot of people did believe it, David. So we laughed. Ahaha. They're so stupid, they don't realize what they're looking at in the database. Maybe that was true. Then again, maybe their own polling says that people believe it when they, when they say it. So it was About a week after Elon Musk had come forward with the great reveal that all of these people were dead and still on Social Security rolls. And when that balloon was bursted by a number of reputable press agencies, then Donald Trump looked out at all of our elected members of Congress and said, actually, they're not 150 years old. Some of them are 300 years old. It was crazy. But a fair number of people have come to believe it. Look, this is what I've come to believe. I know for a fact, and you know this, that Social Security is the only agency that actually maintains a surplus, a huge $2.6 trillion surplus. I think they have their eyes on that money. I think they want it for some other purpose. And they know, given the trust that Americans traditionally have had and their. And their affection for this program and this agency, which keeps so many people from living in poverty, they have to wreck its reputation. And they do that by these falsehoods about waste, fraud, inefficiency being rampant. And they destroy its customer service at the same time. And after turning enough of us against us, then they have the freedom, if you will, to do what they. What they want to do, which is to go after that trust fund after they wreck the system and precipitate an emergency through their own whacking, hacking, and chainsawing of an already struggling agency.
- [45:12]
David Pakman
Right. That's a classic, which is make a system dysfunctional and say, look at how dysfunctional this thing is. We should really get rid of it and maybe privatize it. And as far as the trust fund goes, you know, there's. There's a certain number of levers that you have when it comes to the trust fund and benefits. Of course, one of them would be you reduce benefits. Another one is you increase the retirement age so the monies have more time to grow before benefits are starting to get paid out. You know, do you have a limited number of levers? And one of the really interesting things to me is that one of the ways that you can bolster the trust fund is, is have more working age people paying into the program relative to the number of. Of people that are getting benefits, which, with the birth rate declining, as our friend Elon Musk has told us many times, a great way to change that balance of workers to retirees is increase immigration rather than restrict it. But that seems to be something that they're against. And so I guess my question is about this incoherence of. They love to say the trust fund is going bankruptcy, but at the same time, they oppose a lot of the relatively clear paths to strengthening the very trust fund they attack.
- [46:25]
Keir Starmer
True. The big challenges facing Social Security, I think the most immediate one is the destruction of this agency's ability to operate. I mean they have paid people with your money in mind to quit. Some of them if they were retirement eligible, they pay them for the entire remainder of this year if they would leave now. So but the other thing that the other solvable problem, so the customer service thing is a solvable problem. In fact we had things moving in a much better direction in the final year of the Biden administration sometime achieving a timeliness of service delivery. If you think of it like a big insurance agency, that was the best they'd done since pre pandemic, sometimes a 25 year best in the case of the time it took to dispose of ALJ level, you know, administrative law judge appeals. But anyway, back to your, your question about the other solvable problem is the long term, the long term ability of the program to pay full benefits. I don't know about you, but I can tell you I don't operate on a 75 year forecast. Right, but Social Security does. And within that forecast, yes, as you just pointed out, there are levers, there are assumptions that are made about what the next 75 years will look like. And one of those assumptions has to do with you know, the ratio of people working to people in active, you know, beneficiary status, retirees or people on who have caught a disability. Another one has to do with the birth rates. And there is great concern about the birth rates. If you look at the last several trustees reports and every year they do a trustees report with some pretty decent, not decent, great actuarial work backing up all of those things. But yes, one of the, there's two big. So one of the things that we can do that would greatly enhance the long term 75 year health of the program would be to pass comprehensive immigration reform and allow people who, to who come here to be able to become a part of this great American experience experiment, contribute to our economy and those things. But another one that we could do is actually to raise revenues that come into the program. When I first got there, I asked the long serving actuary Steve Goss. I said I get the whole 75 year forecast thing. I said and the last time we made the adjustment was 1982. I said what did you all get wrong back in 1982, 83 when Congress was last time up on the, you know, against the deadline of oh my God, there's Going to be a reduction in benefits if we don't act. What did you get wrong in those assumptions? He said two things. One of them was we should have programmed in a recession of long duration and depth like the one that we went through. We didn't do that. We should have. But that's only about 10% of why we're reading these scary things that say social securities, trust fund surplus to be depleted in 2033. I said, what was the other one? He said, income inequality. We did not anticipate all of the changes that would happen in the remaining six years of the Reagan administration that would push more of the increased earnings in the American economy out of the hands of those who pay Social Security and into the hands of the top 6%. What most of us don't realize. And David, I've been doing town halls. I've been. I've been more publicly facing as the ex commissioner than I was as the, as the actual commissioner. But one of the things most Americans don't think about much or would have any reason to think about is that there's actually a cap on the dollars that any person earns that, that against which the Social Security FICA tax applies.
- [50:54]
David Pakman
Yeah. 176,000 right now.
- [50:57]
Keir Starmer
Correct. And it goes up every year according to inflation. So if you are a family 4. And you are hardworking enough that you're able and fortunate enough to earn $176,000, you pay roughly 10,000 into Social Security.
- [51:19]
David Pakman
Right.
- [51:20]
Keir Starmer
If you are a single millionaire who makes 176 million a year. 176. 76 million a year. You still pay the same amount that a family making 176,000. And that, my friend, is the biggest cause of and the biggest solution to the scary headlines. We see that the surplus reserve is going to be depleted by 2033. And if I can make one other point on that.
- [51:53]
David Pakman
Yeah. And then also tell us whether you would uncap it or raise the cap.
- [51:59]
Keir Starmer
Yeah. Well, I once ran for president for a brief minute. I'm sorry I wasn't able to off what I saw was coming. And, and in my campaign, I advocated that, that there. That it should be at 200 and that the cap should be raised to 250,000, I believe. Or that rather people should start paying in at 250,000. In other words, leave the cap, create a little bit of a doughnut hole for the next whatever, 15, 20 years. But when people make more than 250, they should start paying those stuff. FICO should apply to that President biden it would indicate that 400,000 should be the threshold for that. But whatever it is, this is a solvable problem. The cause of and the solution to it was that the income inequality. But let me say another word about the, you know, very recently, and I love the Washington Post, it's a reputable paper. But when the latest forecast came out, they had a horrible headline. They played right into the trap. That gets a lot of clickbait online when you see headlines that say Social Security to go totally bankrupt, totally insolvent. Their headline was Social Security to run totally dry by 2033. Not true. What they're talking about, all of those headlines you talk about, the kernel of truth is that ever since 1983, knowing that the baby boomers, people of my generation, were coming, that big demographic bulge, Social Security had intentionally built up through our payments a surplus reserve so that in these years when the baby boomers are moving through their retirement years and before they reach their eternal reward, we're able to pay the difference between the dollars that go in. So last year, 1.3 trillion was paid in by people working in the economy. 1.4 trillion got paid out. Where did the hundred billion came from, come from? It came from that surplus reserve, that $2.6 trillion reserve. So most of the program is pay as you go. If we come up on the deadline again of 2033 and Congress fails for the first time in the 100 year history of Social Security to act, yeah, everybody would get a 17% haircut, but 83% of benefits would continue to be paid because it is a pay as you go program. Another metaphor I might share with you and your and your viewers and listeners is that if you have family owned business and your sister that does your accounting and your books came to you and said, hey big brother, you're going to face a 17% reduction in your in, in your revenues by 2033, you wouldn't immediately run out, put a banner over the business and say bankrupt, we're done, you'd make the adjustments. And that's what we need to do with Social Security. It's a solvable problem.
- [55:18]
David Pakman
Without a doubt, Without a doubt. We've been speaking with former governor of Maryland Martin o', Malley, also the former commissioner of the Social Security administration under the Biden administration. Really appreciate your time today.
- [55:30]
Keir Starmer
Thank you, David.
- [55:32]
David Pakman
A pending Supreme Court case could strip our Fourth Amendment rights and allow immigration agents to come into our homes for any reason. No probable cause needed. All while Republicans try to twist things so that you think this is all great for America. This should be the biggest story in the US Right now. But it's almost impossible to keep up with the millions of moves that Trump is making every single day. That's why Ground News exists. Ground News is an app and website that exposes the blind spots and spin before it takes control of our opinions. Ground News is the smarter, more reliable way to stay informed. When MAGA is banking on us getting distracted, I'm partnering up with Ground News to give you 40% off the same vantage plan that I use, so you'll pay only five bucks a month for all of their premium features. Just go to Ground News, slash Pacman or use the code Pacman in the app. When you sign up, the link is in the description or scan the QR code. Ladies and gentlemen, it seems to be happening. Joe Rogan has slowly but surely been increasingly turning against Donald Trump. He was still gullible. He still fell for all of it. This doesn't get him out of the fiasco that he had a hand in creating. But Rogan, who endorsed Trump in 2024, is finally calling the Epstein situation a line in the sand and says that there is gaslighting going on on the behalf of Donald Trump's position. This is. This is the guy MAGA loves to quote when he bashes Democrats, when he bashes vaccines, when he bashes the media. This is. This is not Rachel Maddow. Right. But even Rogan is now saying what a lot of people are thinking, and this is what it is that's just.
- [57:29]
J.D. Vance
Going to hang around the line in the sand. This one's a line in the sand. Yeah, because this is one where there's a lot of stuff about, you know, when we thought Trump was going to come in and a lot of things are going to be resolved, going to drain the swamp, going to figure everything out. And when you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody been talking about forever, and then they're trying to gaslight you on that, what you would have thought.
- [57:56]
David Pakman
So Rogan, the way Rogan says this is pretty revealing. He says, you know, we believed Trump was going to come in straight, straighten things out, figure everything out. Who believed that? You know, if only extremely gullible people ever believed that Trump was going to do any of the stuff he said he was going to do and expose sex traffickers and drain the swamp or whatever language. The track record has been the opposite. Trump has a history of defending abusers if they're loyal to him. Trump hung out with Epstein for years. Trump attacked his critics way harder than he ever criticized Jeffrey Epstein. And so when Trump goes, why is everybody still talking about Epstein? He's not being cagey, he's kind of being transparent. In a twisted way, he's telling you the truth, which is why I don't want you talking about Epstein. And so when Rogan now is turning on Trump and says there's gaslighting going on and great. I mean, listen, there's two sides to this. There's. What is the political impact of prominent magazine turning on Donald Trump publicly? Well, it may trickle downstream, and there may be more of the public that turns against Trump, and hopefully it helps defeat a lot of these lunatic Republicans in November of 26. And then, you know, thinking further down the line in 2028. Great, I'll take it. But you would have to be so gullible, so gullible ever to have believed that Trump was going to do the things that he said he was going to do. And look at a little bit of the timeline, because there was a time where it was, oh, we're going to release the Epstein files. And then, you know, Trump had that Fox News interview where he goes, oh, MLK files, of course, release everything. Jfk. Wait, what? Did you. Did you just say Epstein? Well, may. Yeah, you know, less so. But we'll see. That moment we all knew. We said it on the show. They're never releasing the Epstein files. They might leak, but Trump's never releasing them. The DOJ and the FBI under Trump now go. There is no list. There are no files. And Pam Bondi said, well, they're on my desk. And then she goes, no, that was taken out of context. But then we've got the Wall Street Journal report that says Pam Bondi not only has the files, she briefed Trump and said, you are in the files. And now he's flirting with pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, who helped Epstein traffic underage girls. And so Rogan, in a sense, is right. It is a betrayal of justice, and it's a betrayal of Trump's promises. In a way, it's also a betrayal of Trump's base because they wanted certain transparency that they're not going to get. And that's what's snapping Rogan, Rogan out of this thing. In a way, Rogan is the most influential voice in podcasting, sort of when it comes to manufacturing consent around Donald Trump. And so when he says, we are being gaslit, that matters. That matters not because Rogan has a moral authority, but because he influences millions of people. Many of whom still think Trump's anti elite. Trump's going to expose this, Trump's going to expose that, even though he's not going to. So Trump's biggest fear isn't the Epstein files per say, it's that his own supporters will realize he's never going to release them. He was never going to release them. He's not draining the swamp. He is the swamp and he's probably in the file. So this is one of those on the one hand, on the other hand things. On the one hand, I always welcome people who say I was wrong. I'm changing my mind. The facts on the ground are informing me. I also can't ignore that. What level of gullibility would you have to be victim of in order to ever have fallen for this crap in the first place? And that's really the question about Rogan. In a stunning moment, J.D. vance, the Vice President, says that Donald Trump has absolutely nothing to hide and is an advocate for full transparency. There is one word that makes me doubt that that word is Epstein. Take a listen to this. The audio is a disaster. I'm aware this was an event that JP Mandel did in Canton, Ohio. Maybe Antifa was controlling the microphones, I don't know.
- [62:23]
Morgan Trout
Ignored for four years under Joe Biden's Department of Justice, the media didn't give a damn about the Epstein files or about the Epstein case for literally 20 years. The story about this scumbag, and he is a scumbag pedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, he's dead now, but for, for 20 years you had Obama and George W. Bush's Department of Justice go easy on this guy. They didn't fully investigate the case, they didn't show any curiosity about the case. And now Donald Trump J. Trump is asking his Department of Justice to show full transparency. And somehow that's a criticism of Donald J. Trump and not Barack Obama and George W. Bush. If you want to criticize the people who aren't showing full transparency, you ought to go after the administrations that went easy on Jeffrey Epstein, the administrations that concealed this case for 20 years, and the administrations that failed to show full transparency. Donald J. Trump, Trump, I'm telling you, he's got nothing to hide. His administration has got nothing to hide. And that's why he's been an advocate for full transparency in this case. He's going to keep on being an advocate for full transparency. But while we're focused on that case, Donald J. Trump is also worried about making sure these great workers get more.
- [63:35]
David Pakman
Take home pay and better Jobs, zero transparency. This is sort of, it's becoming in a way like 1984 esque. Don't believe what you are seeing and hearing. Don't believe that Trump lacks transparency and is raging about the fact that people are talking about this. And don't believe anything that your senses are informing you of. Just believe JD Vance. It's that simple. And JD even went full 1984 when he was asked a question about health insurance. And he goes, oh, don't believe media reports. Don't, just don't, don't believe what is being reported.
- [64:15]
Joe Rogan
Hi, I'm Morgan Trout with News 5 Cleveland. You talked a little bit about protecting Medicaid. There are hundreds of thousands of Ohioans that are at risk right now of losing access to Medicaid despite really wanting to work, but they can't. What do you say to those hundreds of thousands of Ohioans that say they will have no health insurance?
- [64:36]
Morgan Trout
Well, what I, what I'd say to those Ohioans is one, don't believe every false media report that you've heard. Because our explicit goal in the Trump administration is to protect people's health care. So long as they're working hard, playing by the rules. We don't want you to be unable to afford a doctor's visit. And that is what we have tried to accomplish in this legislation. Now, there have been a lot of lies out there. And if, for example, you're an able bodied person and you're searching, searching for work, you still got access to Medicaid. If you're a single mom and you need access to that health care to make sure your kids can go see a doctor, you're still going to have access to that Medicaid. Who's not going to have access to that Medicaid is people who are in the United States illegally and people who refuse to even look for a job. Now, I don't know about you all, but while all these folks here are working hard, paying their taxes, doing everything that can to bust their rear ends.
- [65:29]
David Pakman
To give their kids anyway, I think you get it. You know, this, this is really, hey, what about this thing that's happening that's being reported on? Oh, just don't believe the news reports. Just don't believe it. What about the fact that Medicaid is going to be cut thanks to the bill that your party just passed? Oh, don't, just don't believe that either. There's no cuts in there. Well, hold on. What about all of the new paperwork, requirements and limitations that are being put in place and nonpartisan, partisan assessments that somewhere around 10 million people are going to no, no, no. Just, just believe what we tell you. It would be far easier that way. It really we over the years we've talked about is this more like Aldous Huxley's Brave New World or is this more like George Orwell's 1984? This is more like George Orwell's 1984. They just want you to believe what they tell you. Ignore the media, ignore Democrats, ignore nonpartisan analyses. It's what JD Says, it's what Trump says. And if anything is snapping them out of it to some small degree, maybe it's the fact that they know they can't believe what they are being told by Trump about the Epstein stuff and maybe that'll make them question the rest of it, too. Now on the bonus show today, we are going to talk about Roy Cooper entering the North Carolina Senate race. And this is giving Democrats some hope. We're going to talk about the appeal of her Epstein conviction that G. Lane Maxwell has now filed. And we're also going to this is just unbelievable. Or not. A MAGA superintendent who put Bibles in schools because of morality and ethics and stuff. He's facing a wacky, I mean, just totally whacked out porn investigation. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. Get the daily bonus show commercial free audio and commercial free video versions of the show by becoming a member@join pacman.com it's easy and it's quick. I'll see you on the bonus show today.