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- [00:00]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
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- [01:00]
David Pakman
Donald Trump has crossed the line that no modern president has crossed. And he did it without a plan, without guardrails, and no concern for what happens next. I'm talking about the US Kidnapping the sitting president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, a terrible guy, admittedly, not through extradition, not through international law, through a military operation in the middle of the night. And we're learning that one of the things that pushed Trump to do it was being mocked on TV and Maduro dancing. That is reporting, not hyperbole. We are then going to talk about why this violates US law, international law, and why the idea that this somehow solves Venezuela is complete fantasy politics. We're also going to look at Donald Trump's own words where he admits that he has no planned timeline or idea what happens next. But he has a couple more ideas for invasions. How could the winner of the FIFA Peace Prize be looking at invading so many countries? And the new reporting shows Trump never had the MRI that he and the White House have been talking about for months. He's ignoring doctors, he's self medicating with handfuls of aspirin and meanwhile he's got the nuclear codes. This is really not an episode about left versus right. This, this is about what happens when there is no strategy and just impulsivity. There are only a few political events a year that we remember five, ten years down the line and this weekend was one of them. In a move that Completely shocked not only the world, but put the entire future of the international order at risk. The United States, under Donald Trump, executed a military operation in Venezuela that captured or kidnapped President Nicolas Maduro and brought him to the United States. It was not due to an extradition treaty. It was simply a military strike followed by the abduction of a sitting head of state. Maduro's a terrible guy. He's been horrible for Venezuela. But this can't be the way that countries operate, or it is complete anarchy and chaos. Now we'll get to the legality. The early hours of January 3rd saw US forces launch what the administration is calling Operation Absolute Resolve. It was a strike across Venezuela. There were air attacks around Caracas, and within hours, elite US Special forces had seized Nicolas Maduro and his wife, flown them out of the country, transported them to New York, where federal prosecutors had criminal charges waiting, and this morning, Maduro was brought to court. Trump immediately framed it as a law enforcement action, saying it was justified by American narcotics laws. That a superseding indictment against Maduro for narco terrorism and cocaine conspiracies justifies this. But context and law matter. Now, we're going to go through the step by step because there is a lot today. First of all, what. Put aside your opinion about Maduro. Put aside your opinion as to what Donald Trump's ultimate goal is here. We have a number of problems with what Trump did. If we care about law and order and the rule of law. And remember, this is the peace president who wasn't going to get us into any new entanglements. Number one, no congressional authorization. Under the Constitution, only Congress can declare war and authorize major uses of military force. Kidnapping the sitting president of another country is a use of military force. Trump didn't do it. Number two, United Nations Charter violations. So quaint. I know Trump doesn't give a damn about that. But international law is clear. States may not use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of another state unless authorized by the UN Security Council. That was not authorized. That this was an armed attack not authorized by the UN Security Council. That violates international agreement number three, sovereign immunity and head of state protection. Even when accused of crimes, sitting presidents typically enjoy sovereign immunity. Trump knows that. And that is the protection of removal by foreign powers. That's why extraditions involve negotiated legal processes rather than military raids. We didn't have that. And then, of course, the extraordinarily dangerous precedent, because now you've got global authorities, from Russia to whoever else condemning this, the US has lost the moral high ground. And of course, this raises questions about, well, who is next? And by the way, Trump has an answer to that question. Hint, it's Cuba and Colombia. So bottom line, nothing that Trump or the administration have said about this kidnapping make it legal. Trump says the US Is going to run Venezuela. Trump can't even run the United States. He thinks he's going to run another country. And meanwhile, the oil companies that were involved, that were invited to help seem to want nothing to do with it because the infrastructure in Venezuela is so dilapidated. So bottom line here, Maduro, terrible guy. I would love Maduro out. But we really have to think through the justifications. If this was about narco trafficking, why has Trump pardoned other narco traffickers? If this was about getting an authoritarian out of power? Trump loves authoritarians, just not Maduro. He loves Putin, Kim Jong Un, Viktor Orban, Duterte back in his era. So we know it can't be objectively about authoritarianism. If this was about, you know, regime change, well, they got rid of Maduro, but they left the entire regime in place and in charge. So it can't really be about that. And if it was about the oil, which maybe it was, it seems that the American companies that would be necessary in order to pursue the oil aren't really interested in pursuing it. So there are major legal and other questions here. But the biggest one is that even though any, if you're an anti authoritarian, if you are for an independent judiciary, if you are for independent media as opposed to not controlled by the state, if you're for any of the things that progressives should be for, you would of course look at Chavez and now Maduro and say, this is very bad. I am against these regimes. But if the United States can unilaterally abduct a foreign leader, fly him back to US Soil, then no head of state is safe anywhere. And that is not a rhetorical claim. That is simply a shift in how global power could operate. And it would not be a way that strengthens American interests. It will set a precedent for other powers like Putin or China to exploit. Exploit. Now, we are going to delve into some of the other potential explanations as to the motivations here. But there is a belief among some that this is part of sort of a deal that Putin and Trump not necessarily shook hands on, but there was a kind of look the other way. Trump will look the other way when it comes to Ukraine and allow or even support a, quote, peace agreement in which Russia keeps a bunch of Ukrainian land. If Putin looks away from its ally Venezuela when Trump wants to go in there and do who knows what, including kidnapping the president of the country. So that is a possibility here. That is a sort of silent quid pro quo. And the importance of that is that it opens the door for China to now go into Taiwan. And what sort of moral high ground would the United States have to say, no, sir, you can't do that after Trump went into Venezuela. So there are far reaching foreign policy implications here. The bottom line is that once you weaken the rules against cross border force, others are going to be the same, be doing the same and they're not going to do it with benevolent intentions. So there are magus saying what bold leadership from Donald Trump. This is quite literally the unraveling of the rule of law itself. And there is new reporting about one of the potential underlying motivations for Trump to do this. And it involves dancing. You've got to see this. Did Donald Trump invade Venezuela and kidnap the president, Nicolas Maduro, because Maduro was dancing. I don't mean dancing metaphorically. I'm not saying it as a joke. It's not like code for something else, literal dancing. There is new reporting from the New York Times that one of the things that pushed Donald Trump over the edge into going into Venezuela and kidnapping Nicolas Maduro is that Maduro was going on TV and dancing, sort of brushing off threats from Donald Trump and repeating the phrase no crazy war. And Trump and people around him apparently saw this as mockery and they said, we are going to call his bluff. This is the dancing to some. This is some of the dancing which apparently triggered Trump to go and kidnap Maduro.
- [10:35]
Mike / Donald Trump
Please, please, please. Yes, please.
- [10:38]
David Pakman
Yes, please. All right, you get the picture? I think so. Think about that for a moment. The US did not go in and invade Venezuela and kidnap the President because of an imminent threat from Venezuela. It didn't happen because Venezuela attacked Americans. It's not because of a treaty obligation that the US Must defend some third party and has to go in. It is because Donald Trump and the people around him were embarrassed and angry that Maduro was dancing, that he was dancing, rather than taking Donald Trump's threats seriously. And this is where Pete Hagseth, the Secretary of Defense, came up with Maduro effed around and found out. Now, the part that matters here is that the decision making process looks indistinguishable from Trump's personal psychology. The decision to do or not do this operation could be based on economics, trade policy, strategy, the safety of Americans. You can have this long list. None of those Things seem to have been the tipping point. The tipping point seems to be Trump's personal feeling that the dancing was disrespectful and that the disrespect is a form of defiance. And the defiance from Maduro to Trump meant, he thinks I'm weak. Therefore, we are going to do a military raid that is not a clinic in impulse control. And it gets us to the question, which we will explore later. Is dementia or cognitive decline primarily responsible for Donald Trump's actions? In that he has become disinhibited and aggressive to traits that can coincide with cognitive decline? And in a sense, that would be the most logical explanation, because what Trump did contradicts any real logic. Now, the New York Times article that explains this goes into the kind of toddler logic of geopolitics, and it feels fits a pattern that we've seen over time. Trump is not about responding to institutions. He responds basically to vibes, to dominance displays, and do I feel respected in the moment or not? And if you flatter Trump, you're safe. And if you challenge Trump quietly, you might survive. But if you publicly defy or embarrass Trump, especially on tv, all bets are off. So Venezuela was invaded amid talks of drugs and oil and oil order. But the spark that flipped the switch seems to be a man dancing on TV and making Donald Trump feel small. It is a level of instability that tells you so much of what you need to know to understand how Donald Trump functions. Now, one of the major questions that has cropped up, and we're going to hear from Marco Rubio about it, we're going to hear from Donald Trump himself and others, is now what happens in Venezuela? It appears that it wasn't for the narco trafficking because Trump pardoned narco traffickers. It wasn't about authoritarianism, because Trump loves authoritarians. It wasn't about regime change, because most of the regime is in place. So was it about oil? If it was, the companies are saying, I don't know that we want to get involved in this, and we have to talk about that next. The Trump administration has no idea what it is getting into with Venezuela. The idea that Trump can capture Nicolas Maduro and everything's going to magically work out is true, as I called it earlier, fantasy politics. It sounds tough and rough on tv. And the moment that it meets reality, it collapses. And history makes that very clear. Now, let me kind of reset a little bit of the backstory. For years, Venezuela was not an enemy of the United States. It was really a partner and it was a pretty close partner, especially when it comes to oil. You had American companies deeply embedded in Venezuela for much of the 20th century. We have American refineries depending on Venezuelan crude. We've talked before about how the type of oil that we can harvest in the United States is not actually the type of oil that United States refineries are best equipped to process. That's why we export a lot of our oil and import a lot of the stuff that we refine. We've talked about that before. Now, the relationship between the US And Venezuela broke down after nationalization and later under Hugo Chavez, when American assets were seized and contracts were ripped up. And this is a very important history in understanding what's going on here, because it explains why this isn't. This isn't just a difficult situation. It's. It's a thermonuclear situation. If this were really about regime change, you wouldn't leave the entire regime in place other than just Maduro himself. You don't remove one guy, keep the same generals, vp, power brokers, corrupt institutions, and pretend that you've even done regime change. Now, I'm not saying this as a supporter of regime change. I'm against American involvement in regime change in Central and South America. But if that's what you claim to be doing, you're failing to do it. And that is exactly the kind of chaos that the US has been blamed for in Latin America for decades. Now, Trump's people float this other explanation, and Trump says, we're going to get the oil. We're going to get American companies involved. And the idea is that American oil companies are going to want to rush in and get involved, rebuild Venezuela's energy sector and just make a ton of money. But now the problem seems to be that the American oil companies don't want to do it. Venezuela's oil infrastructure is ancient and the refineries are falling apart. Pipelines barely function. It could take tens of billions of dollars just to stabilize production, forget about expanding it and profiting from it. And companies remember what happened last time. They remember the nationalization, they remember the sanctions. They remember assets that were frozen and deals that were broken. And when you do that and add Trump to the mix as one of the most impulsive, erratic, glad to tear up agreements, types of guys, this stops looking like an opportunity for the American oil companies, and it looks like a legal and financial nightmare. Now, you might be saying, David, it sounds like you're saying it would be a good deal if the American companies could make money. No, no. I'm going through the purported list of explanations as to why they're doing this and pointing out that these explanations either fail or won't function in practice. Now, from a business standpoint, it would make no sense to get involved here, and I understand that. So, again, the question becomes, who does this make sense for? The most dark and conspiratorial answer would be, this makes a lot of sense for Vladimir Putin, because once the United States openly starts talking about grabbing countries for strategic interests, and it becomes a lot easier for Putin to go, we're going to keep Ukraine. That is it. And that is a precedent that Trump is normalizing here. As I alluded to earlier, it doesn't stop with Russia and Ukraine. China hears it and says, wait a second, what about our ambitions in Taiwan? If the message from Trump becomes, great powers take what they want and Putin is allowed to do the same, then why wouldn't China say, this sounds like the absolute perfect time to go in after Taiwan? Now, the irony of all of this is that Donald Trump believes it makes him look really strong. We'll look at video from Trump's recent statements, and he just has an air of grandiosity where he's just such a big, strong boy here. But what it actually does is invite rejection. Rejection from allies who remember how American interventionism has gone completely wrong, rejection from companies who don't want to get involved in such an unstable situation, and rejection from markets that don't want to gamble on a president who treats foreign policy like a stunt. So there's really no strategy here. This is impulsivity dressed up as toughness. Trump's about to learn how it can go wrong. But for our purposes as we cross, you know, we start with, this is a blank notebook, but we cross off narco, we cross off authoritarianism, we cross off regime change. We're maybe not even. We're maybe even crossing oil off. As an explanation, is Trump's disinhibited dementia to blame for this entire thing? We're going to consider that in a moment. For people wondering, I'm wearing my Obama T shirt. Hold on, here it is. This is a David Pakman show item. The back, I don't know if you can see, has the David Pakman show logo on the back. This item is selling like hotcakes on the David Pakman show store, which you can find@store.david pakman.com the Obama T shirt. All right, very quick break. What a show today. 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I try to spend as little as if we're spending money on lawyers. Something has gone wrong, let me put it that way. But in all seriousness, here is to another year of independent media. I really appreciate every single one of you. I want to raise a question, and it is a delicate question. Is it possible that Donald Trump's erratic kidnapping of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro is not because of narco trafficking? It is not because of authoritarianism. It is not because of regime change. It is not because of oil. But it is because of Trump's cognitive decline, which includes disinhibition, aggressiveness, anger, instability and serious impulsiveness. Let's just go through the press conference that Donald Trump gave with very poorly thought out justifications and plans. You can tell Trump has no idea what's going to happen here. And I want to just propose to you that this may be more reflective, not of Trump's foreign policy perspective, but more of Donald Trump's decline. Trump asked, would you consider putting U.S. troops on the ground in Venezuela? And Trump kind of goes, if we've got to do it, we've got to do it.
- [23:52]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
President, does the US Running the country mean that US Troops will be on the ground? How will that work?
- [23:57]
Mike / Donald Trump
Well, you know, they always say boots on the ground. Oh, so we're not afraid of boots on the ground if we have to have we had boots on the ground last night at a very high level, actually. We're not afraid of it. We don't mind saying it, but we're going to make sure that that country is run properly. We're not doing this in vain. This is not. This is a very dangerous attack. This is an attack that could have gone very, very badly. Could have gone very badly. We could have lost a lot of people last night. We could have lost a lot of dignity. We could have lost a lot of equipment. The equipment is less important, but we could have lost a lot. And we're going to make sure that this is proper with, yeah, Donald Trump.
- [24:35]
David Pakman
All of a sudden, as the antiwar president goes, what's wrong with boots on the ground? Sure, why not? Now, I wonder if Melania will drop Baron off at the local military recruiting office if they do that. And there's a couple of reasons that Donald Trump has no problem with boots on the ground. Number one, Trump got out of serving in uniform because of a doctor's note about his ankles. And number two, Trump has a complete lack of empathy for Those who do sacrifice for the country. So of course to Trump, boots on the ground, why not? I guess that's fine. Now, the US Isn't even being run properly by Donald Trump, but Trump thinks he's going to run not only the US but also Venezuela. Here is Trump saying, we're going to do it for as long as we need to do it.
- [25:18]
Mike / Donald Trump
We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition. So we don't want to be involved with having somebody else get in. And we have the same situation that we had for the last long period of years. So we are going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.
- [25:45]
David Pakman
Now, the only problem with this is that they kidnap Maduro, but they left the generals, his VP and the entire infrastructure of the regime in place. And this is where, as you listen to this, you start saying, does Trump have any idea what's going on? Is he coming up with this crap after the fact? Because it was a completely impulsive decision. Now then the financial stuff starts coming up and Trump says, we're going to take a lot of money out of Venezuela for their own benefit.
- [26:18]
Mike / Donald Trump
Of course, it has killed a lot of people doing just that. The infrastructure is old, it's rotted. Much of it is stuff that we put there 25 years ago, and we're going to be replacing it and we're going to take a lot of money out so that we can take care of the country for their own good.
- [26:36]
David Pakman
We're going to take their money. It's. We're going to hold it for them. We're going to hold it in a lockbox. It's going to be fine, and it's going to be for their own benefit. Now, this is fascinating. The question of potentially installing Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Karina Machado came up. The only problem is Trump is extraordinarily jealous of her that she got the Nobel Peace Prize that he so desperately wants. And Trump goes, you know, she's very nice, but no, she doesn't have the.
- [27:08]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Respect of the location of opposition leader Machado. And have you been in contact with her?
- [27:13]
Mike / Donald Trump
No, we haven't.
- [27:20]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
On Monday, I think it would be.
- [27:21]
Mike / Donald Trump
Very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect.
- [27:29]
David Pakman
What Trump means is, I don't respect her. She didn't deserve the Nobel Peace Prize I did that. That is fundamentally what Donald Trump is saying here. Geopolitics and interrelated alliances came up a reporter saying, you know, China has interests in Venezuela, Russia and Iran have interests there. Here is Trump's answer to that. China, Russia and Iran have interests in Venezuela. How does this operation affect your relationships.
- [27:58]
Mike / Donald Trump
With them when it comes to China and Russia? Well, Russia, when we get things straightened out. But in terms of other countries that want oil, we're in the oil business. We're going to sell it to them. We're not going to say we're not going to go. In other words, we'll be selling oil probably in much larger doses because they couldn't produce.
- [28:17]
David Pakman
It's funny how quickly everybody forgot about the whole drugs justification.
- [28:21]
Mike / Donald Trump
It's very much because their infrastructure was so bad. So we'll be selling large amounts of oil to other countries, many of whom are using it now. But I would say many more will come.
- [28:31]
David Pakman
Massive, massive dumps of oil. And what about the whole narco trafficking thing? Well, you know, he doesn't really care about that bonus clip from the press conference. Here is the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth with the now completely Kafka esque statement. Maduro after round and he found out justice all on full display in the middle of the night. Nicolas Maduro had his chance, just like Iran had their chance until they didn't. And until he didn't, he effed around.
- [29:08]
Mike / Donald Trump
And he found out.
- [29:10]
David Pakman
There you go. Notice the painful lack of gravitas, dignity and self respect from Pete Hegseth. So the real reason for the invasion, for the kidnapping, for all of it, quite frankly, I don't know. But cognitive decline on behalf of Trump and the disinhibition, impulsivity and aggression that can come with it. As good an explanation as anything else. Just hours ago, Donald Trump, looking yellow rather than orange, spoke to reporters on Air Force One. And it became evident as you heard Donald Trump speak that he is completely clueless about what it is that did take place and what will take place in Venezuela. Hours before Nicolas Maduro was schlepped to court this morning, Donald Trump was asked, are you going to demand that the VP now Acting President Delsey Rodriguez, allow opposition figures to come back or free political prisoners? And Trump goes, really? We want to, we want oil. That's really Trump's concern.
- [30:29]
Mike / Donald Trump
Go ahead now. Are you, are you going to demand that Delta Rodriguez let opposition figures return or free any political prisoners? We haven't gotten to that yet. Right now what we want to do Is fix up the oil, fix up the country, bring the country back, and then have a look. Elections. Is it fair? We better bring the country back. Otherwise you're just going to have. You're going to have a mess that's so bad.
- [30:51]
David Pakman
It's going to be a nasty mess.
- [30:53]
Mike / Donald Trump
It was really bad. It's going to get a lot worse unless we go in and fix it.
- [30:59]
David Pakman
So oil, at least during this event, was Donald Trump's priority. Now, buried in this conversation with reporters was an absolute bombshell. I want to remind you, we learned Donald Trump did not notify the House and Senate in advance that he was doing this. Forget about seeking congressional approval. He didn't even tell them that he was doing this. Trump reveals that he told the oil companies ahead of time. He didn't tell our elected officials who are supposed to vote as to whether they approve doing this. He didn't tell him. But the oil companies, who he hoped would swoop in and help everybody make money, he told them ahead of time.
- [31:47]
Mike / Donald Trump
Before the operation took place. Yes, before and after. And they want to go in and they're going to do a great job for the people of Venezuela.
- [31:57]
David Pakman
Before and after Trump spoke to them about what he was doing, he did not inform Congress, never mind seek authorization from Congress, which he is supposed to do, but he informed the oil companies. This is either a really evil person or someone whose cognitive decline explains all of this behavior. And quite frankly, I don't know which is scarier. Donald Trump asked about the vice president referring to this as a kidnapping of Maduro, and Trump goes, yeah, I mean, I'm fine with that.
- [32:34]
Mike / Donald Trump
It depends on what happens. It depends a little bit on the new administration, if you want to call it.
- [32:39]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
So if you see that pushback from Rodriguez, and ultimately, I don't think there was pushback.
- [32:44]
Mike / Donald Trump
I think that she called it.
- [32:46]
David Pakman
She.
- [32:47]
Mike / Donald Trump
You know, you hear a different person than I hear.
- [32:50]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Really? So you have spoken with her?
- [32:51]
Mike / Donald Trump
We just told you.
- [32:52]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Oh, you did speak.
- [32:53]
Mike / Donald Trump
They've been very good because she called.
- [32:55]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
It kidnapping of Maduro.
- [32:56]
Mike / Donald Trump
So it's not a bad term.
- [33:00]
David Pakman
Now, this is one of those areas where Trump associates the term kidnapping with strength. That's right. We did kidnap him. Other leaders better be careful because we'll go in and kidnap them as well. But of course, kidnapping has massive legal and geopolitical implications. Trump just doesn't understand that. Yeah, kid, sure. Call it kidnapping. We don't care. Now, this is just a bizarre moment. Trump is asked about the oil and about the $17 billion of oil reserves in Venezuela. And Trump goes, you must mean trillion, right? No, no, no. Billion. Trump doesn't even have a close assessment of how much oil there is. Not that it would justify this one way or the other, but look at how clueless he sounds.
- [33:43]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
There's about 17 billion worth of oil reserves in Venezuela. Is that going to be mean trillion and is that going to be a million or. I said billion.
- [33:53]
Mike / Donald Trump
You said 17 billion. It's much more than that.
- [33:56]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Okay, so what is going to happen to those reserves?
- [33:59]
Mike / Donald Trump
We're going to run everything. We're going to.
- [34:01]
David Pakman
Trump's going to have all 17 trillion dollars worth of oil. What? 17 billion? Wait a second. We did this for 17 billion, not 17 trillion. This is the type of disconnect from reality that is terrifying, just absolutely terrifying on a fundamental level. Now, we're going to deal later with who's next, because Trump's not going to stop here, but Trump giving us a little bit of a preview here.
- [34:29]
Mike / Donald Trump
We have a very sick neighbor. It's not a neighbor, but it's close to a neighbor. And that's. Venezuela is very sick. Colombia is very sick, too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you.
- [34:45]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
What does that mean? He's not going to be doing it very long.
- [34:47]
Mike / Donald Trump
Not doing it very long. He has cocaine mills and cocaine factories. He's not going to be doing it.
- [34:54]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
So there will be an operation by.
- [34:55]
Mike / Donald Trump
The US and it sounds good to me.
- [34:58]
David Pakman
Sounds good to me. Now, we're going to get back to that. We're going to get back to that because I believe Cuba seems to be just as ripe a target for Trump and Marco Rubio as. As Colombia. But we will get back to that. And finally, finally, Donald Trump asked a good question. You used to be against regime change. You used to be against nation building, but now you're doing it. Trump's explanation, pathetic.
- [35:21]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
There was a time back in 2016, I remember your RNC speech, and you were saying that regime change and nation building. When you were speaking at the RRNC back in 2016, criticizing. You were criticizing regime change and nation building, the US Being involved in that. It seems obviously, that your stance has changed on that. What led to that? And is the US Nation building now?
- [35:41]
Mike / Donald Trump
Is that a country that's on the other side of the world? This is a country like we have to travel 24 hours in an airplane. This is Venezuela. It's in our area, the dock.
- [35:52]
David Pakman
This is Venezuela it's not a country that's far away. When Trump said he was against regime change for year after year after year, he met for countries that are far away. But if the country is closer, if it's a, you know, what is it, four hour flight from Miami? Not even maybe, then that's totally different. Their regime change is okay. I wonder if Tulsi knew when she said Trump is the real antiwar candidate who won't do regime change wars, did she know Trump meant only in countries that are far away? If they're nearby, like Venezuela, then it's totally fine. Tulsi. By the way, we'll get to Tulsi, because that's a whole other story. One challenge in covering politics today is that even when outlets are reporting the same facts, they often are framing the stories really differently. And our sponsor, Ground News, is a website and app that makes those differences easy to see. What Ground News does is gather coverage of the same story from across the political spectrum and shows you where the reporting is coming from. You can see which outlets lean left, right or center, and you can also see how reliable they are and who owns them. What I find most useful is the side by side headline comparison. You're looking at the same underlying facts, but it's clear how different outlets will emphasize one angle or a narrative or another. Ground News gives you a transparent way to understand bias without being told what to think think. They also offer a blind spot feed which will highlight stories underreported by one side of the political spectrum and that helps surface items that I might otherwise otherwise miss or not even hear about. You can also personalize your feed by interest and that makes it easier to follow issues you personally care about. Go to Ground News slash pacman to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan, and you can also gift a subscription to a friend. The link is in the description. Almost lost in the new year and the weekend of kidnapping Nicolas Maduro was a bombshell report in the Wall Street Journal, not a liberal rag by any means about the rapid deterioration of Donald Trump's health. And by the way, he never had the mri. What? Trump talked about the MRI three times. Caroline Levitt talked about the MRI three, four times. And he never had an mri. I'm going to explain it all to you. This piece from the Wall Street Journal revealed that Donald Trump often ignores what his doctors tell him. He knows more, he says, and that basically genetics are going to determine how long and how healthy he's going to live. And to be honest, there is a little Bit of truth in that, like much of health is determined by genetics. And then lifestyle kind of layers on top of that. Environment layers on top of that. Trump is probably only alive because of that. I don't think Trump understands the degree to which genetics is saving him. An obese 79 year old who doesn't exercise and eats 2000 calorie meals, not a day. 2000 calorie meals of fast food probably would be dead already were it not for his genetics. But a few of the things we learned from this Wall Street Journal piece. Trump, at one point, because of the swollen ankles, did try wearing compression stockings, but I guess it wasn't working particularly well, so he abandoned that. The article mentions Trump struggles to stay awake, which I think is a generous way to describe it. I would call it Trump regularly falling asleep in public and jerking awake sometimes. But they describe Trump's struggles to stay awake. And Trump says that he doesn't fall asleep sometimes he just closes his eyes. We'll get back to that. Trump also said during this interview with the Wall Street Journal about his health that he doesn't have any hearing issue whatsoever. Even though Trump is regularly asking for questions to be repeated, sometimes a second time, sometimes a third time. Here is just one example. This one. He needed Melania to come in and bail him out. He had no clue what he was being asked.
- [39:59]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Mr. President, I have two questions for you. First, after your phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky today, do you plan, plan to speak with Russia's President Putin in the near future?
- [40:09]
Mike / Donald Trump
What.
- [40:09]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
What if he was President Putin here?
- [40:12]
David Pakman
Is Melania interpreting?
- [40:14]
Mike / Donald Trump
I will be. Yeah, I will be. We're having a very good.
- [40:17]
David Pakman
All right, so anyway, it seems obvious Trump is having a hearing issue. Not a huge deal. We can deal with that. He's almost 80, but he's got to go, nope, my hearing is absolutely perfect. Then we get to the incredible revelation. After months of talking about Donald Trump's mri. What was it for? When was it done? What were the results? The White House weighing in on Trump's mri. Ever had an mri? All of this time it was a CAT scan. Trump is explaining it and the White House is explaining it, and they're releasing summaries, by the way, back when they released the results of the mri. And I said, these are not results. This is like a paragraph summary from a doctor. We want the actual results. The document from a radiologist. Had we gotten that, we would have immediately known it was a CAT scan, not an mri. Now, the CAT scan is faster. There are a Number of different reasons you would do an MRI versus a CAT scan. Depends what you're looking at. Depends why The CAT scan does explain a couple of things. The timeline for Trump's visit to Walter Reed, where he had a full workup and an MRI and cognitive test and all this stuff. MRI ise typically, you know, you're talking 30 to 45 minutes in the machine. You got to get ready for it. What? It wasn't really adding up. The CAT scan is fast. So the CAT scan actually clarifies how was it that Trump did so much stuff, even though he was only at Walter Reed total for. For a couple of hours. Now, CAT scans do subject you to radiation, whereas the MRI does not. That's one of the great things about an mri. No radiation. And whenever you are deciding to do a CAT scan, you are weighing the information that you would get, the seriousness of whatever you're looking at against the radiation. I'll give you an example. Some of you know that high cholesterol runs in my family, and when I was, I don't even know how old, 37 or something like that, I started kind of keeping a close tab on my ldl. We got to a point where my doctor, my cardiologist said, listen, we could do a CAT scan, a cardi. What's it called? A calcium score, which is a CAT scan to look at calcium calcification in the arteries. But it's a bunch of radiation. And the truth is we're probably going to treat your LDL regardless. And in someone your age, your CART calcium score could be zero because it's soft plaque rather than hard, but we'd still give you the statin. So I said, it doesn't sound like we should subject me to the radiation. And he said, I completely agree. You think about when you do a CAT scan, radiation versus information versus how would it direct treatment. In my case, either way, I was going on the statin, so I didn't need it. Doctors determined we need to give Donald Trump a CAT scan. The radiation is worth it for whatever we are looking at. Doctors said the CAT scan was done to definitively rule out cardiovascular issues, and it revealed no abnormalities. It still doesn't tell us exactly what the scan was. So no mri. All this time, talking about an MRI that didn't exist. Third, Trump's skin is now so delicate that Pam Bondi, his attorney general nicked, was giving Trump a high five, and she was wearing a ring that nicked Trump's hand. And Trump's hand started bleeding, and it apparently caused Concern around Trump. Wow, why is, why is he bleeding so easily? Fourth, Donald Trump is increasingly irritated and agitated by coverage of his health. And we have a conflict because there is reporting that Donald Trump is only working 12 to 5 now versus the White House, claiming in the Wall Street Journal article that he's working all day, every day, day and night. Trump's staff are also reportedly counseling him. You got to keep your eyes open during events. Trump claims he's never asleep during these events. He's just resting his eyes. Listening staff, I guess, buying into that farce, have said, well, maybe listen with your eyes open. Of course, we know that Trump is asleep, so it's a much harder thing to do. Trump denies that he's falling asleep at all. He says it's relaxing to close his eyes to listen. And then finally, this is just wild. While flying to a campaign event, according to the report, Trump ate McDonald's fries, a quarter Pounder, a Big Mac, and a filet o fish. I went to the McDonald's website. That is over 1800 calories. Okay? That's close to what most adults should be eating in an entire day.
- [44:59]
Marco Rubio
Day.
- [45:00]
David Pakman
Trump ate it as one meal. He's having single fast food meals of over 1800 calories. Incredible stuff. And then buried in all of this aspirin. Let's talk about that. There's a detail from the Wall Street Journal report about Donald Trump's deteriorating health that Donald Trump is taking way more aspirin than doctors recommend. Why? Because he likes it and because he's superstitious. Now, we've talked about regimens of aspirin before, and increasingly the medical community is not recommending an aspirin regimen for many people of Donald Trump's health and age status. But when you were doing it, you're supposed to take, I believe it's called a baby aspirin. It's like 81 milligrams of aspirin. Trump is taking something like two or three times that. And he says that that's why he bruises easily. Trump says, I've been taking it for a long time. I'm superstitious. And he even went on to say that aspirin is good for thinning the blood. He doesn't want thick blood pouring through his heart. He wants thin blood. And so that, combined with superstition, is why Trump is taking way more aspirin than he's supposed to be taking. Now, routine aspirin use is increasingly not recommended at all for people of Trump's age, unless there's a very specific Medical reason why? Because bleeding risks do go up. Trump taking this much aspirin might explain why he bled after his hand was just nicked by high fiving Pam Bondi and hitting her ring. The bleeding risks go up and the benefits go down. So that's why it's typically not recommended that people like Trump be taking so much aspirin. And yet Donald Trump keeps taking it. Remember, Trump knows more than everybody during COVID he knew more than the epidemiologists and the pulmonologist and the virologist and the doctors. And as far as his own health is concerned, Donald Trump, I guess, knows more as well. Now, when he was asked, why don't you switch? His only real explanation is superstition. And the part that then comes is is just stunning. This idea of Trump imagining thick blood going through his heart rather than thin blood, the imagery of it makes him go and take a whole bunch of aspirin. Now, remember that this is the guy who claims he's in perfect health, who gets visibly angry any time somebody raises a question about his age, who treats basic medical guidance as optional if it conflicts with his gut feeling. So the takeaway for me from the aspirin story is less about, wow, Trump's taking a lot of aspirin, and that's not so good. It's that Trump dismisses even his own doctors. He ignores updated guidance about aspirin regimens. He acknowledges that superstition rather than evidence is why he is taking as much aspirin as he's taking. And he says it proudly. It's a window into how Trump makes decisions. And I think it applies to how he makes decisions about everything. Stubborn, emotional, what feels right instead of what experts say actually makes sense. And he brings this mindset to trade, put tariffs on everybody. He brings this to foreign policy. Let's give Putin a bunch of Ukraine, and I'm going to go in and kidnap Nicolas Maduro. He brings this attitude to national security. I've always done it this way, and this is my gut feeling becomes the justification for everything. And when doctors go, sir, that's no longer recommended. Trump's not curious. He's not cautious. He goes, I'm superstitious and I've been doing it this way for a while. I'm going to keep doing it. So when we see unexplained bruising and we hear evasive answers about Trump's health and we're told for months about Trump's mri, which never happened because he got a CAT scan, remember that Trump openly admits he overrides medical advice because of superstition and habit and he goes and gets to kidnap world leaders and have the nuclear codes. Despite this being how he makes decisions and this being how he thinks about anybody who is an expert in any field, he was serious in terms of his belief when he said, I know more than the generals. He thinks he knows more than his own doctors. And that should terrify every single one of us. Cold weather is sometimes when simple meals matter the most and during the winter there is nothing like pulling a warm bread out of the oven at home. It'll change the mood with the smell alone, never mind the taste. Our sponsor, Wild Grain, is the first bake from frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries and fresh pastas already in 25 minutes or less with no prep, Wild Grain uses simple ingredients and a slow fermentation process which will add flavor and can be easier on digestion. No preservatives, no shortcuts. Lately I've been reaching for the Wild Grain sourdough loaf for quick dinners. Their cranberry pecan rolls are great for the weekends. Everything comes out perfectly browned and fragrant. Wild Grains boxes are customizable. They include gluten free, vegan and protein box options so it fits whatever you've got going on. Delivery is reliable. Baking is hands off, perfect for cozy brunches or easy work weeknights. Nothing like having an artisan bakery in your freezer to chase away that winter chill. Get $30 off your first box, plus free croissants for life at wildgrain.com/pacman an interview yesterday with the Secretary of State Marco Rubio exposes that this administration is flying completely blind with no idea whatsoever what they are doing with the situation in Venezuela. Rubio kind of inadvertently exposes Donald Trump's incompetence and shows that there is no plan, there is no strategy. It is merely chaos. Kristen Welker asked Marco Rubio, are you running Venezuela right now? Rubio can't really answer the question, and.
- [51:08]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
So he doesn't Mr. Secretary, who is in charge, are you running Venezuela right now?
- [51:18]
Marco Rubio
Yeah, I mean, I keep people, you know, fixating on that. Here's the bottom line on it is we expect to see changes in Venezuela, changes of all kinds, long term, short term. We'd love to see all kinds of changes, but the most immediate changes are the ones that are in the national interest of the United States. That's why we're involved here, because of how it applies and has a direct impact on the United States.
- [51:38]
Mike / Donald Trump
Okay.
- [51:38]
Marco Rubio
We are not going to be able to allow in our hemisphere a country that becomes a crossroads for the activities of all of our adversaries around the world. We just can't allow it. We can't have a country where the people in charge of its military and in charge of its police department are openly cooperating with drug trafficking organizations. We can't. We're not going to allow that. These are.
- [51:57]
David Pakman
Yeah, you might be saying, David, I think you skipped the part where he answers the question of who's running Venezuela. He didn't answer that question. And it's becoming very clear that whatever changes Marco has in mind, the VP to Maduro, Delsey Rodriguez, does not seem eager to give up power and may even remain in power. Now, we're going to get to where. Where public opinion is about that in a moment. If indeed there are going to be what we might call legitimate changes in Venezuela, there should be an election. I agree with that, by the way. Maduro was a horrible autocrat. And despite finding what Trump did to be illegal and a total and complete disaster, that doesn't mean I am a supporter of Nicolas Maduro. One of the most important things for Venezuela would be to have a real election, a free and fair election soon. Kristen Welker asks Marco Rubio, when is the election going to be? Not exactly an answer there either.
- [52:49]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
You talk about a holistic transition. I think there's a lot of focus on potential elections. How soon will elections be held? Within 30 days, Mr. Secretary.
- [53:04]
Marco Rubio
Elections. Well, look, this is a country that's been governed by this regime now for 14 or 15 years. The election should have happened a long time ago. The elections did happen. They lost them and they didn't count the votes or they refused to count the votes. And everyone knows it. So all of that, I think is premature at this point. There's a lot of work to be done here. Right now we are focused in. Let's be realistic here. What we are focused on right now is all of the president problems we had with the MAD when Maduro was there. We still have those problems in terms of them needing to be addressed. We are going to give people an opportunity to address those challenges and those problems. Until they address it, they will continue to face this oil quarantine. They will continue to face pressure from the United States. We will continue to target drug boats if they try to run towards the United States. We will continue to seize the boats that are sanctioned with court orders.
- [53:51]
David Pakman
Okay, so he's not going to answer the question about elections either. Who's in charge? He's not telling us. When is the election? He's not telling us. It's a very strange regime change to kidnap the President and then now the VP of that same regime is in power and the same power structure is in power and the same generals are in power. And again, I don't say this out of saying I support regime change. I'm against American led regime change in Venezuela. But if you are doing it, but you leave essentially the full regime in power, it's kind of weird. Interestingly, when you look at the betting markets like Kalshee, who will lead Venezuela at the end of 2026, 45% and climbing believe that it is going to be the former VP and current acting president Delsey Rodriguez. It's increasingly looking like it is regime change that leaves the exact same regime and, and more and more people, at least according to this Kalshee betting market, believe that the administrator, excuse me, the Trump administration most likely is going to leave the regime in power just with no more Maduro. George Stephanopoulos also interviewed Secretary of State Marco Rubio and said the drug trafficking explanation, which by the way, almost everyone's forgotten about now, doesn't really make sense because Trump has pardoned drug traffickers and Rubio basically says, I was never involved in that.
- [55:20]
Mark Warner
The Congressional Gang of Eight has a history of not leaking. But you mentioned the indictment of Mr. Maduro and of course it does detail his drug running operations in the same jurisdiction. The former President of Honduras was actually convicted on similar charges, yet the President pardoned him. Here's what the Vice Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, had to say about that. He said, you cannot credibly argue that drug trafficking charges demand invasion in one case while issuing a pardon in another. What's your response?
- [55:47]
Marco Rubio
Well, the President has the pardon authority. He's the one that reviewed the file with the folks at the White House to make these pardon decisions and I refer questions to them on it because I did not involve in the pardon process. So I can't comment on that because I wasn't involved in that process. But the president, kind of weird that.
- [56:01]
David Pakman
The Secretary of State wouldn't be involved in that. It's a pretty major decision to make.
- [56:05]
Marco Rubio
Outlined yesterday that he felt that in that particular case there was unfairness and that there was unfairness in the way that that individual was treated. And he also pointed to the fact that the party that's now won the elections in Honduras had asked for this. And so I would point to those comments as a rationale for it in the case of Maduro. Look, it's very simple. This guy was indicted. No one ever did anything about it. And he didn't think he was under threat or that the was ever going to be enforced. It was enforced. Yesterday.
- [56:34]
Mark Warner
Hernandez was convicted by a jury.
- [56:39]
Marco Rubio
I understand you're asking me. The pardon authority is something that, you know, I'm not involved in, in my role. I'm not criticizing it. I can't just comment on it because I just wasn't involved in those deliberations.
- [56:48]
Mark Warner
Do you support it?
- [56:51]
Marco Rubio
I wasn't involved in those deliberations. I haven't looked at the case file. I haven't looked at the arguments made by, you know, I've got a bunch of other things going on that are within my.
- [56:59]
David Pakman
Marco's too busy to even give an opinion on that one. So the takeaway, they are bloodthirsty, they want more. And we'll get to that. But just flying completely blind and seemingly dealing with narco trafficking while pardoning narco traffickers, going after authoritarians while loving other authoritarians, doing regime change while leaving the regime in place and then going for the oil, which American companies seem to want nothing to do with. What a world of incompetence we live in now. What is the next invasion? Let's get to that next. The Trump administration is unlikely to stop with Venezuela. Trump and the people around him seem to be quickly spiraling into the next invasion. Marco Rubio was asked on Meet the Press, what about Cuba? Is Cuba a problem? And Marco Rubio kind of read between the lines here, although you don't have to do much reading between the lines. Yeah, Cuba that could be next.
- [57:56]
Haley / Shar / Interviewer
Is the Cuban government the Trump administration's next target? Mr. Secretary, very quickly.
- [58:02]
Marco Rubio
Well, the Cuban government is a. Is a huge problem. Yeah, the Cuban government is a huge problem first.
- [58:07]
David Pakman
So is that a yes?
- [58:08]
Marco Rubio
Cuba. But I don't think people fully appreciate. I think they're in a lot of trouble. Yes. I'm not going to talk to you about what our future steps are going to be and our policies are going to be right now in this regard. But I don't think it's any mystery that we are not big fans of the Cuban regime, who, by the way, way, are the ones that were propping up Maduro. His entire, like, internal security force, his internal security apparatus is entirely controlled by Cubans. One of the untold stories here is how, in essence, you talk about colonization, because I think you said Dulce Rodriguez mentioned, that the Ones who have sort of colonized, at least inside the regime, are Cubans. It was Cubans that guarded Maduro.
- [58:42]
David Pakman
All right, so, yes, Cuba is in a lot of trouble, and we may go there next. And Marco Rubio during the press conference over the weekend with Donald Trump announcing what took place with Maduro also talking about Cuba. Hilariously, he makes, he describes Cuba in a way that makes it sound like the United States disaster.
- [58:59]
Marco Rubio
It's, it's run by incompetent, senile men, and in some cases, not senile, but incompetent nonetheless.
- [59:06]
David Pakman
They have really is sounding quite a bit like the United States, I have to tell you. Aside from it sounding like he's describing Donald Trump, they're making it pretty clear what the plan is. And Lindsey Graham just hours ago on Air Force One saying, Cuba, you'd better watch out, could have done it.
- [59:23]
Lindsey Graham
And as to this commander in chief, he did something people talked about doing. You just wait for Cuba. Cuba is a communist dictatorship that's killed priests and nuns. They've preyed on their own people. Their days are numbered. We're going to wake up one day, I hope, in 2016, six in our backyard. We're going to have allies in these countries doing business with America, not narco terrorist dictators killing Americans. This is a big frigging day, and everybody in the world is thinking differently than they were just a few days ago because of what you did.
- [60:02]
David Pakman
They're thinking Trump is genuinely nuts. This goes back to a foreign policy idea. There is, there is a camp that believes the most valuable trait when it comes to foreign policy is a president that no one can predict and that that makes others be careful, keeps people in line, this sort of thing. But there's another side to that coin, which is a president that nobody can predict means a president we don't trust to do anything with. And as we've seen, Donald Trump just backs out of deals he doesn't like or says, I don't care if we're in Naito, we're not coming to the fence, the defense of this, that or the other country. And so what they believe is a feature actually is a bug to the detriment of the United States. But they're making it clear. I mean, you got to hand it to Rubio and Lindsey. They want Cuba, maybe they want Colombia as well. Now, on the bonus show today, we will talk about, after all, the oil, oil, oil talk. What's going on with oil prices might surprise you. There is a shift in Republican strategy pointing towards 20, 28 where maybe Don Jr is being thought of as the heir apparent to Trump rather than J.D. vance. We will discuss that. And finally, it appears as though Tim Walls is going to be dropping out of the gubernatorial race in Minnesota after the fraud pseudo scandal, and Senator Amy Klobuchar is considering a run. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. Sign up@join pacman.com get the Obama shirt that I'm wearing. I realize my mic is kind of blocking it and a bunch of other cool stuff@store.david pakman.com and remember that we are pushing to 4 million YouTube subscribers. Hit that subscribe button if you're running on YouTube. Watching on YouTube. We're going to get to that number sooner or later folks, if I have anything to do with it. See you on the bonus show.
- [62:01]
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