Prices up, chaos up, tragedy up, logic down

Summary

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The David Pakman Show

Episode: "Prices up, chaos up, tragedy up, logic down"
Date: March 12, 2026
Host: David Pakman
Main Guests: Alex Wagner, various reporters, Donald Trump (clips)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The David Pakman Show offers a scathing, fact-driven dissection of the crumbling public and political case for the Trump administration’s war in Iran. David Pakman explores the rapidly deteriorating economic and political fallout—rising prices, mounting casualties, chaotic public messaging, and growing cracks inside the Republican coalition. The episode features extensive, often-quoted Trump soundbites, grim polling signals for the administration, and illuminating segments with Alex Wagner, who helps analyze the Democratic response and the shifting landscape for 2028. The episode blends sharp, progressive critique with humorous takedowns, live reporting from a chaotic Trump Kentucky rally, and man-on-the-street interviews capturing voter confusion and propaganda.

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Key Discussion Points and Segments

1. The Iran War Fallout & Republican Disarray

[01:31–04:12]

• Pakman opens with the “spin” around the Iran war unravelling due to soaring prices and a weakening public rationale for continuing the conflict.
• “Prices are going up. The public case for the war is getting weaker and even people inside Donald Trump’s own movement are starting to show cracks and they want out.” (David Pakman, 01:37)
• Republican officials begin to admit, against their previous promises, that prices will stay elevated for the foreseeable future.
• Internal dissent among Trump allies—especially the notable voice of Steve Bannon, who signals that MAGA loyalty to the war is waning.

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2. Trump’s Disastrous 24 Hours & Press Conference Meltdowns

[02:54–09:07]

• Pakman details what he frames as an unprecedented series of “mistakes”—economic, military, PR—all culminating in Trump’s clumsy Kentucky rally.
• Trump, questioned about the U.S. responsibility for bombing an Iranian school, repeatedly dodges:

  Reporter: “Do you take responsibility for (the strike)?”
  Trump: “I don’t know.”
  (05:45)

• Trump’s inability to articulate military goals echoes the absence of any clear plan:

  “More of the same. And we’ll see how that all comes out...We could do a lot worse. We’re leaving.”
  (Donald Trump, 04:16)

• Highlighted: Trump’s struggles with basic terminology (“mutualization” instead of “mutilation” regarding gender-affirming care, 06:56).
• Pakman underscores the recurring pattern: Trump becomes particularly combative and insulting when challenged by female reporters, as seen in his exchange with Liz Landers:

  “If you don’t say it was rigged, you’re a rotten reporter.”
  (Pakman summarizing, 09:40)

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3. The Kentucky Rally: Frenzied Chaos, Rambling, & Fabrications

[12:09–20:48]

• Pakman brings listeners into the surreal atmosphere of Trump's Kentucky rally:
  • Disorganized, sweaty, and unfocused.
  • Trump struggles with pronunciation (“keen tucky” for Kentucky, 15:13).
  • Books Jake Paul onstage, who delivers a meandering speech to an indifferent crowd.
• Notable moment: A medical emergency interrupts the rally; Dr. Oz, present in the audience, is called to assist, leading Pakman to quip, “This is beyond parody.” (19:16)
• Trump fabricates economic numbers (“We got $18 trillion in 11 months,” 15:45) and admits to dozing during military planning.

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4. Gas Prices, “Schrodinger’s War,” and Factless Messaging

[27:10–32:22]

• At a Cincinnati factory stop, Trump blurs the definition of the Iran conflict:

  “It’s both. It’s an excursion that will keep us out of a war and the war is going to be mean for them. It’s a war for us.”
  (Donald Trump, 27:14)

• Pakman coins “Schrodinger’s War”—the administration claims the war is simultaneously over and ongoing, both minor and catastrophic.
• Data breakdown: Gas prices up 30% since January, the Dow plunges, job losses are mounting.
• Trump claims, “prices are coming down very substantially,” contradicting reality and sparking Pakman’s pointed correction:

  “If inflation goes from 6% to 3%, prices are still going up, just not as quickly.”
  (Pakman, 29:24)

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5. Steve Bannon’s Alarm Bells: Fracture Within MAGA

[32:22–37:29]

• Steve Bannon, central Trump strategist, goes public with his disenchantment:

  “I don’t think freedom isn’t free is landing…I’m not happy we’re in it…” (Bannon, quoted by Pakman, 32:22)

• Pakman analyzes the long-standing tension between Trump’s “anti-interventionist” and “hawkish” wings, arguing that Trump’s rhetorical balancing act is collapsing under real war conditions.

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6. Alex Wagner Interview – The Democratic Landscape & Iran’s Political Fallout

[39:34–49:27]

• Wagner discusses the transformation of public discourse around war, noting that critics are no longer reflexively branded as allies of authoritarian regimes.
• She describes the increased unpredictability and danger of Trump’s decision-making as the war’s costs mount:

  “This is the most dangerous Trump…when his ego is on the line and he’s backed into a corner…he also sees the political reckoning that’s about to take place in November.”
  (Wagner, 45:44)

• Wagner: Trump more focused on “rigging” future elections (Save America Act) than on protecting the Republican Party itself (48:09).

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7. The 2028 Election, Democratic Drift, and the Role of the Progressive Left

[49:27–62:33]

• Wagner and Pakman debate the Democratic Party’s internal fractures, the role of authenticity and conviction in winning over an electorate exhausted by Trump.
• Discussion on 2028 prospects—center vs. left, the importance of clear values over specific policy laundry lists.
• On emerging progressive figures (AOC, Zoran Mamdani, et al.):

  “What we should learn from them is injecting vibrancy and humor and normalcy and connection…”
  (Pharmaceutical Advertiser/Alex Wagner, 57:32)

• Analysis of the Republican heir-apparent question (Vance vs. Rubio) and the cult-like nature of Trump’s support.

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8. Man-on-the-Street at Trump Rally: Voter Confusion and Propaganda

[64:52–71:00]

• Newsmax and Real America’s Voice interviews with rally-goers reveal:
  • Heavy reliance on Fox/Trump talking points (“should have done this for 47 years”).
  • Undefined belief in Trump’s “truthfulness” and “family values” with little connection to actual policy or outcomes (“He’s real,” “More chairs inside,” 70:47).
  • Pakman: “These are true cultists…It’s extremely low information, folks, and a lot of confusion as to what is Trump doing for the people.” (70:31–71:00)
• Pakman concludes that “laughing at these people…is extremely unproductive,” emphasizing the urgent need for effective opposition organizing.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump on the Iran war:
  “More of the same. And we’ll see how that all comes out…We could do a lot worse. We’re leaving.” (04:16)
• On taking responsibility for civilian casualties:
  “I don’t know.” (Trump, 05:45)
• Reporting on gender-affirming care:
  “No transgender mutualization of our children.” (Trump, 06:56)
• Steve Bannon, signaling internal MAGA dissent:
  “Freedom isn’t free is not landing…I’m not happy we’re in it.” (32:22)
• Alex Wagner on Trump’s unpredictability:
  “I genuinely don’t know which Trump is gonna be actually calling the shots in the next couple days, but I think the door is open to any possibilities.” (45:44)
• Pakman on voter propaganda:
  “This 47 years talking point has been floating around. Maybe the reason we didn’t do it for 47 years was that it was a bad idea.” (66:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Leadoff framing, economic/political crisis: 01:31–02:48
• Trump’s press conference gaffes: 04:12–06:56
• Kentucky rally chaos and medical emergency (Dr. Oz): 15:45–19:16
• “Schrodinger’s War” analysis: 27:10–32:22
• Bannon’s warning: 32:22–37:29
• Alex Wagner interview (Democratic response): 39:34–49:27
• Democratic candidates & 2028 outlook: 49:27–62:33
• Trump rally interviews / voter confusion: 64:52–71:00

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Tone & Language

• Throughout, Pakman deploys biting humor and incredulity, keeping a sharply critical, progressive lens.
• Quotes are maintained in their original bluntness, especially highlighting Trump’s rambling and the repetition of right-wing slogans among supporters.
• Wagner brings measured insight, focusing on the need for authenticity and policy conviction on the Democratic side.

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Summary

This episode paints an urgent picture: the Trump administration’s war in Iran is unraveling on every front—economically, politically, and with the public. Trump’s messaging is incoherent, with even stalwarts like Steve Bannon losing faith. Democratic prospects for 2028 remain wide open but lacking in leadership clarity, while the electorate is battered by propaganda and real-world economic pain. Through it all, Pakman and Wagner urge clear-eyed engagement—pointing out the danger of underestimating either Trump or the propagandized base, and the necessity of authentic, conviction-driven alternatives on the left.

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Transcript

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[David Pakman]

ever feel like your brain just won't click? Onnit Alpha Brain is a daily supplement engineered to support memory, focus and mental speed. Made with science backed ingredients, Onnit Alpha Brain helps you lock in, tune out distractions and stay sharp. See what your brain can really do. Visit onnit.com and shop Alpha Brain to unlock your next level. That's o n n I-t.com the spin around the Iran war is very quickly falling apart because prices are going up. The public case for the war is getting weaker and even people inside Donald Trump's own movement are starting to show cracks and they want out. We're going to look at the growing economic fallout, the political fallout and we've got a Republican senator admitting prices are going to stay up for a while, which is not what people were promised. We also are going to get into some completely unraveling media appearances, basic questions that this administration, administration is unwilling or unable to answer. And we're also going to hear from Steve Bannon now signaling that the war is not landing well with maga, which is a much bigger problem for Trumpism itself. This is all getting harder and harder to defend. Costs are getting harder to hide and Republicans are admitting it.

[Donald Trump]

Foreign.

[David Pakman]

I've been doing this a long time and I don't know that I have ever experienced or seen a 24 hour period so disastrous for a single administration combining everything from economics mistakes to foreign policy mistakes, military mistakes and, and simple PR mistakes with regard to how you are communicating to the American people. What a day for this administration. I'm going to talk you through it and then later we'll get into some deeper analysis. Donald Trump holding a rally in Kentucky. Why? We don't know. I'll speculate in a moment. As he is heading out to the helicopter to take him to the plane to spend taxpayer dollars getting down to Kentucky to hold a rally. Donald Trump held the brief, I guess we would call it a gaggle or a little mini press conference with Caroline Levitt standing right next to him wearing a comically oversized cross to sort of COVID the sins of their constant lying. Trump is asked what else needs to happen militarily for the Iran war to end. And Trump goes, well, more of the same. Here's a little hint. He has no plan and he has no idea what is it.

[Donald Trump]

Peter, what more do you need to

[David Pakman]

do militarily for this operation to end?

[Donald Trump]

More the same. And we'll see how that all comes out. Right now they are, they've lost their navy, they've lost their air force, they have no anti aircraft apparatus at all. They have no radar. Their leaders are gone and we could do a lot worse. We're leaving.

[David Pakman]

And yet at the same time that the goals are substantially complete, we're going to be there for a while. And at the same time that the price spikes are a blip, prices are going to stay high for a while. And at the same time that we really are wrapping this thing up, we're doing more bombing than ever. Hint. Trump has no plan. He was confronted about the report that confirms it wasn't some Tomahawk missile that Iran somehow obtained that they then used to bomb their own girls school, it was the United States. And now Trump is asked, do you take responsibility for That. I mean, the buck stops with you. You are the commander in chief. And Trump goes, I know nothing about.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

A new report says that the military investigation has found that the United States struck the school in Iran. As commander in chief, you take responsibility for that.

[Donald Trump]

That is what.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

As commander in chief, do you?

[Donald Trump]

For what?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

For the strike on the school in Iran. A military. A new report says the military investigation has found it was the United States that struck the school.

[Donald Trump]

I don't know.

[David Pakman]

He doesn't ever take responsibility. And he knows nothing about it. Now. He previously said, oh, yeah, I do know about that. Iran got their hands on a missile and they bombed their own school. Oh, well, why, why are you saying that? Nobody else is saying that. Well, because I don't really know much about it. Huh. Now that we know what happened, he goes, not a clue. Not a clue whatsoever. Trump asked, are you concerned about domestic terrorism by Iran here in the United States

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

about a domestic terrorist?

[David Pakman]

No, he's not worried about it. And why would he be? I mean, listen, he's not going to be suffering if there's some kind of attack. He's got Secret Service and the best protection maybe in the world. He's not worried. But we should be. Trump, again, on this issue of gender affirming care, really struggling to say mutilation again. I just don't think the guy can say it.

[Donald Trump]

And we're also adding in no men playing in women's sports, no transgender mutilization

[David Pakman]

of our children, no mutualization of our children. Okay, so he doesn't know the word. And then finally, Trump says he's even surprised by how much he's using the military as president in the second term. It's funny, because we're not surprised. We didn't fall for the. This is the real antiwar president we have.

[Donald Trump]

And I built it during my first term and I used it. I didn't realize I was going to use it this month. But we have the greatest military in the world.

[David Pakman]

How is it that Trump is surprised by how much he's using the military, but none of us who were paying attention are surprised. I mean, I guess, you know, you turn on Rogan and Rogan's like, this is crazy. We never knew that this was going to happen. It's wild. How. How could I feel like Trump is doing something different than what he promised? Yes, that's exactly right. And we made it clear as the campaign was raging and he was telling these very obvious lies and making impossible promises, promises he had no intention of keeping. Impossible is a different Question, but promises he had no intention of keeping. We're not surprised. If you saw Trump's first term, you wouldn't be surprised about where the second term landed. Now, when Trump was asked a question by a female reporter, it really triggered him. You know, it's not just that Trump got mad at a reporter. Trump gets mad at reporters all the time. It's the pattern where a female reporter confronts him directly. She has the facts. The facts make Trump look terrible. She doesn't back off when Trump tries to tell a lie. And he goes to the same playbook, which is to attack the female reporter. He's done it with Kaitlan Collins in the first term during the COVID press conferences. He would do it with Weijia Yang all the time. And this time, it's Liz Landers. Trump tries to pull the whole the election was rigged thing. And she says, but it wasn't. And she has the receipts. And what does Trump do? He goes, you're a rotten reporter. He cannot help himself.

[Donald Trump]

Well, with Rwanda and with Como, and we hope they're going to be, they're going to get along.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Arizona, why did the FBI seize election records in that state?

[Donald Trump]

Well, they probably thought the election was rigged, right?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

It wasn't rigged, though.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, really? How do you know?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Your, your own, your own attorney general in 2020 said that there was not measurable motocross to change the, the outcome of the election. There's no sir. Where's the evidence of that?

[David Pakman]

If you don't say it was rigged, you're a rotten reporter. There is a reason that this feels so familiar to us. This is what happens when strong women don't lay down and let Trump walk all over them. You know, the whole Hillary Clinton, she's a nasty woman thing. That's because Hillary Clinton didn't lay down and accept Trump's lies and insults. Kaitlan Collins, more recently. This was just, what, a couple months ago, I guess six weeks ago, something like that. Says she's the worst reporter. She never smiles. And he's previously referred to her as stupid and nasty. So the formula is woman doesn't back down. Trump pivots for from the substance to the attitude or demeanor or personality or appearance of the woman and starts slinging insults. And he did the same thing to the Washington Post, Natalie Allison, saying, oh, you have a very bad attitude when she didn't back down. This is a tell, okay? Trump often gets combative with men. There's no doubt. Jim Acosta, Peter Alexander, the guy from Axios, from the worst interview in the World. We have many examples of Trump getting combative with men, but there's an edge to how personal it gets when it's women, where it's like he's not only offended by the question, he's offended by the fact that a woman dares to ask him this way and then dares to follow up and dares to say, no, that's not true, sir. So these are not isolated meltdowns. This is a very clear pattern where he doesn't like being challenged in general, but he really takes it badly when the challenge comes from a woman who is, number one, prepared, number two, calm, and number three, simply not willing to play along the way that Donald Trump wants her to play along. And that's why Liz Landers is so good in this moment. She does what, by the way, is just basic journalistic behavior, basic journalistic preparedness. She doesn't ramble, she doesn't moralize. She just goes, hey, here's the question. Yes, but that's not true. What do you mean it's not true? Well, your own attorney general said it. You've presented no evidence that the 2020 election was rigged. Your side acknowledged that there is no evidence, and he cannot handle it. So this is how it works with Trump. Knowing that that's how he's going to react is a.

[Alex Wagner]

Is.

[David Pakman]

Is a smart thing for reporters to do. The more accurate the question, the more confident the journalist, the uglier Trump's insults get. And this all was only the preparation for Trump arriving in Kentucky for a completely deranged rally. We are going to look at a completely desperate, swollen, soaking wet, sweaty, orange Trump, who fled to Kentucky in a panic to try to save his presidency, as everything is collapsing around him. He may not be able to win his optional war in Iran. Gas prices are through the roof. Jobs are collapsing. And so Trump decided to hold a rally for no discernible reason other than straight up panic. Get me a group of my sickest sycophants and let me rant to them. And it was really, really bad. There were medical emergencies, there were lies, there were soaking wet armpits. I'll get to that. Nasty, nasty stuff going on. But a lot of rambling. And here is Trump just aimlessly rambling. Not only did the rally not really have any true purpose, even Trump seems to be, you know, he calls it the weave. It seems more like a brain injury.

[Donald Trump]

Powerful. Very, very powerful. The wind. You know, you're watching television and you want to watch, and your beautiful wife, our first lady, says, I'm Sorry, darling, you can't watch tonight. The wind has gone down.

[David Pakman]

And I thought she called him sir, not darling,

[Donald Trump]

but I want to watch myself on television. I want to watch myself debate. He says, I'm sorry, darling, we have absolutely no energy. There's no wind tonight. What a scam. That's a pretty big scam. That's one of the top. I say, that's a top.

[David Pakman]

And of course we do have this thing called batteries, but this was the theme, just deranged rambling. And these are some of the what we might consider the good parts of the rally where the audience was kind of engaged, but then they start to go silent as the crowd goes, what is wrong with this guy?

[Donald Trump]

They knocked out 54 ships in two days. They're real ships. In fact, I got angry at my people. I said, are they good? Yeah, they're warships. I said, why the hell did we kill them? Why did we just capture them and use them in our navy? They said they wouldn't have qualified for that. But I got a little upset with my people. I said, why do we have to knock them? And actually one of my generals said, sir, it's a lot more fun, sir.

[David Pakman]

Trump really struggling with a lot of words. He actually seems unable to say the word Kentucky and he does one of his dog and pony shows where he pretends he's being cute and clever. I don't think the guy can say Kentucky.

[Donald Trump]

Brand new construction jobs in Kentucky.

[David Pakman]

Kentucky. It's not Keene. New Hampshire and it's not Kentucky. It's keen tucky.

[Donald Trump]

Keen tucking. I love the way a real Kentuckian pronounces it. But if I do it. But I love keen turkey.

[David Pakman]

I love keen ducky. At one point, Trump became distracted by the presence of influencer and I guess boxer Jake Paul in the crowd. But that didn't stop him from completely fabricating economic numbers out of thin air.

[Donald Trump]

We got $18 trillion and Jake Paul knows what that means, right? $18 trillion in 11 months. Because they haven't calculated the 12 months. So we have 18 trillion in 11 months.

[David Pakman]

And of course these numbers are completely fabricated, made up out of thin air. The audio is terrible. That is something. I think maybe Antifa was controlling the audio at the rally. Trump then in a shocking moment acknowledges that he was falling asleep during the Iran war planning. Not exactly inspiring confidence and not exactly projecting virility and strength.

[Donald Trump]

Regime in Iran with Operation Epic Fury. Is that a great name? Well, it's only good if you win, you know, you can only do. And we've won. Let me say we've won. You know, you never like to say too early, you won, we won. We won. The bet in the first hour, it was over, Right? But. But they gave me a list of names that, you know, sir, you can pick the name you'd like. Sir, I said, the name of what? The name of the attack on Iran, sir. And they gave me, like, 20 names. And I'm, like, falling asleep. I didn't like any of them. Then I see epic fury.

[David Pakman]

I said, there you go. So Trump was falling asleep, but then seeing epic fury on a piece of paper really perked him up. Now then it gets wacky. There was a medical emergency. And the medical emergency brought out the wackiest and most bizarre elements of Trumpism. First of all, it is a theme that Donald Trump holds these rallies in either extremely hot outdoor environments or sometimes indoors in environments that are not properly cooled. People start to faint. Sometimes they have to wait hours because Trump is hours late to his own rallies. Someone behind Trump faints and the speech is paused. Right when Trump was ranting about news scum yet let him.

[Donald Trump]

Did you see that? They went to munition Munich, right?

[David Pakman]

You saw Munition that.

[Donald Trump]

Right. You saw Gavin. Gavin Newscomb. He admitted that he's now Gavin Newscomb. So I think.

[David Pakman]

And you'll see Trump gets distracted as people behind him start yelling that someone has passed out.

[Donald Trump]

His career is over. Okay, we get. Let's get off the teleprompter. Do you mind if I get off the teleprompter for a couple of minutes?

[David Pakman]

The teleprompter. Trump famously doesn't need resistance.

[Donald Trump]

You know, I have these great speech writers. I drive them crazy because half of the time I'm not. But Gavin Newsom. In an interview.

[David Pakman]

In an interview now, Trump turns around and someone has fainted. It's total chaos. And the speech is paused.

[Donald Trump]

You have a doctor in the house, please. Doctor.

[David Pakman]

Now, which doctor were they able to come up with? This is beyond parody. It's Dr. Oz.

[Donald Trump]

It's Dr. Oz. Can you believe it? Dr. Oz.

[David Pakman]

And there is Dr. Oz along. I mean, it's just every. Everything about this is crazy. So then as the break continues and Trump is trying to summon. I don't even know what he requests that they play Ave Maria in the audience. But I guess his staffers weren't prepared for that.

[Donald Trump]

How about Ave Maria? Well, because is going to be okay. How about putting it right now, Ave Maria, if they are listening. Ave Maria by paparazzi.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay.

[David Pakman]

And then ending the medical emergency part of the rally. Trump tries to go back to new scum, but he kind of realizes it's not really going to land after what happened.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you, everybody. Great job. Thank you. Yeah, well, thank you very much. We're talking about Gavin Newscombe. Doesn't seem like a very good subject right now.

[David Pakman]

No.

[Donald Trump]

Made that young lady not feel so good.

[David Pakman]

Right. Anyway, so then they move on and they get back to the substance, which was mentally deranged. Trump insisting that China is smart enough not to have any wind power. But of course, China's wind power capacity is absolutely massive.

[Donald Trump]

Interesting. China uses a lot of coal. China is very smart. They use coal. What they don't use much of, if at all, are windmills. So they make all the windmills and they sell that garbage to us. Round and round it goes, keeps it, goes around, it loses 25. That's a lot, you know, and kills a lot of birds. Kills them all. You know, if you shoot a beautiful bald eagle, they put you in jail for five years. Windmills kill them by the thousands. Okay, figure that one out.

[David Pakman]

There you go. And then Jake Paul actually gets up on stage. And you'll notice Jake Paul has some of the most aggressive armpit sweat stains I've maybe ever seen, which, by the way, we're not making fun of. It's indicative, first, of all, of the conditions at these rallies. And secondly, maybe Jake Paul has hyperhidrosis. I don't know. But it also seems as though the crowd doesn't really know who he is, which makes the big reveal even funnier.

[Donald Trump]

But you know what? It showed lots of courage.

[David Pakman]

Jake Paul has sweat through a suit. Folks, I. I know that this could be a medical condition, but it just goes to the conditions at these rallies. He has sweat through maybe an undershirt, although he's probably wearing what we might consider. What's it called, an A shirt. There's, like, a domestic abuse term that's often used for those shirts. Wife beaters, which I find completely inappropriate. But in any way. The point is, if it's not a full undershirt, he's. He's not sweating through it. He's wearing a shirt and a suit. I've never seen someone sweat through an entire suit before.

[Donald Trump]

Come here, Jake. Say a few words of your people.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jake Paul]

What Mr. Trump has taught me is courage. You know, we never back down from a fight, even if they're much bigger than you. Much, much bigger than you. And I feel all the local Kentuckians feel the same way. You guys have that fight. You guys have that swag. There's a lot of young kids in here. The future of America. I grew up just a few hours away from here and my dad taught me to fight. And all of our voices matter in America and I'm never afraid to speak the truth. And I know you guys, aren't we here. We are here representing the United States and it's just a Blessing. Thank you, Mr. Trump. We need more factories.

[David Pakman]

What does it even mean that they're there representing the United States? That's a really weird thing. Anyway, so Jake Paul speaks and the audience is not particularly moved by it. And finally, in a sign of respect and decorum, Donald Trump wraps up the rally as over 150 service members have been injured. Thanks to his war of choice, we are approaching 10Americans killed. Thanks to his war of choice, we've got an economic disaster. Gas prices are now up 30% since January. As I am broadcasting to you right now, the Dow is down another 600 points. And here is how Trump commemorates that. Vomitus. Vomitus. What the hell has happened to this country? We all know the feeling where there's a nonfiction book that people keep telling you you've got to read. This could be any book. Maybe you've been hearing about it for years. You want to read it. You can't find the time. This is why I find Blinkist to be such a valuable resource. Our sponsor, Blinkist is an app that distills the key insights from nonfiction books into short summaries you can read or listen to in about 15 minutes instead of committing hours to a full book. Blinkist gives you the essential ideas quickly and early. They have more than 9,000 titles covering everything from politics, economics and psychology to science, personal development and more. You can listen while commuting, walking, doing chores. You'll still get those important primary takeaways from the entire book. Blinkist was actually one of our first major sponsors years ago when the show was way smaller. They've been supporting us for a long time and I encourage you to support them. It is a great, great service. You can try Blinkist free for a whole week at blinkist.com/pacman. The link is in the description. If you're trying to get away from cigarettes or vaping, one of the first practical questions is what you replace them with. Especially if you're not ready to eliminate nicotine immediately. Check out our sponsor, Zipix Nicotine Toothpicks. Zipix uses quality plant derived nicotine with a very short list of ingredients. It gives you another option for managing nicotine with no smoke or vapor. Zipix comes in six flavors. There's two or three milligram options lets you control the nicotine as compared to a cigarette or vape. They're also easy to use throughout the day and in places where smoking or vaping isn't allowed or it would require you to step out conspicuously for a cigarette, which can cause other problems. Zipix also offers caffeine and B12 toothpicks if you're reducing nicotine altogether or don't even use it at all. If you're tired of cigarettes or vaping, try Zipix Nicotine TOOTHPICKS and get 10% off your first order with code PACMAN@ ZIPIXTOOTHPICKS.COM the link is in the description. You must be 21 or older to order. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. During the propaganda tour that started on the White House lawn and ended with Donald Trump holding a rally for some unknown reason in Kentucky, he did stop in Cincinnati, Ohio. And while in Cincinnati, Ohio, he visited a factory. And as usual, any little thing that he tries to do goes horribly wrong. Trump did attempt to take some questions, and Peter Doocy from Fox News actually asked Trump a reasonable question for once, which is, is what is happening in Iran a war or is it a little excursion? Both terms that Donald Trump has used to refer to it. And Trump goes, well, it's kind of both.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Yes, you just said it is a

[David Pakman]

little excursion and you said it is a war. So which one is it?

[Donald Trump]

Well, it's both. It's both. It's a an excursion that will keep us out of a war and the war is going to be mean for them. It's a war for us. It's turned out to be easier than we thought.

[David Pakman]

You know, I jokingly started to refer to this thing as Schrodinger's War, and it was kind of a stupid joke, although many of you liked it, but many of you didn't know. Nobody wrote to me saying they didn't like it, but it was just sort of an offhanded comment. But increasingly, this is the most hard to define military intervention maybe in human history. It is a war, but it's only an excursion. The goals are complete, but we're going to need to stay there for a while. We are done, but we are doing more bombing than ever. What the hell is going on? And part of this is, of course, that they recognize that every single one of these claims comes with a problem attached to it. If it's just straight up a war it's probably illegal because you didn't get congressional authorization. If it's not a war, how do you justify that? We are losing, losing American service member lives and also seeing people injured and crushing the economy as a result. If the point was regime change and we've completed that, how do you explain that the Ayatollah's son, a member of the exact same regime, has now come to power? I could go on with these examples. And so what you end up with, tongue in cheek, is Schrodinger's war. It is. And isn't everything at the same thing at the same time. Now, faced with the skyrocketing costs, etc. And faced with the reality that the gas prices and oil prices are unlikely to come down anytime soon, Donald Trump seems to be shifting strategy to just saying prices are down, which I don't think anybody's falling for.

[Donald Trump]

Back in a pretty short while. Prices are coming down very substantially. Oil will be coming down. That's just a. That's just a matter of war. That happens.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

It happens.

[David Pakman]

And Trump has decided that it is worth it. He's decided your sacrifice is worth it to him to play his war games, which are having deadly consequences and disastrous economic consequences. Now, of course, you already know prices haven't come down. If inflation is more than 0.0, prices are going up. They might be going up at different speeds. Inflation of 2% versus 4% versus 6% is all prices going up. If inflation goes from 6% to 3%, prices are still going up, just not as quickly. Is anybody falling for this? And then Trump tries to get out of the event, and the business owner says, we were actually going to show you our packaging operation. You'll see Trump try to walk away. And then they go, Mr. President, sir, we were going to show you our packaging operation. And you can tell Trump just seems thrilled about it.

[Donald Trump]

In 28 years, medicine's only gone up, and we brought it down, but in many cases, 80% more. So it's an honor and you're a big recipient because it's good for your business, right?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Absolutely.

[Donald Trump]

Thank you.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

We're very proud to be a part of the American supply chain and reshoring pharmaceutical operations. So thank you very much.

[Donald Trump]

That's what we're doing. We're bringing it back to our country where it should be.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Thank you, Mr. President. Alan was actually going to show you a little bit about our packaging operation. We bring medicine.

[David Pakman]

Trump's like, oh, okay. Wow. Is there no way we could just leave and then maybe have a couple Filet O fishes on the plane on the way to Kentucky for the rally. So this is all not going well. Every attempt to appear engaged and engaged with and concerned for the suffering of the American people, that is doing turns into one of two things. A president who clearly doesn't give a damn about you, or a president who insists he does care, but he just lies about the truth of what's going on. Such lies, including the prices, have come down substantially when every single American knows that they haven't. We are going to hear from Steve Bannon now and Steve Bannon, top Trump guy. I mean, listen, this is like one of the architects of Trumpism. I don't know that we get a President Trump back in 2016 if it's not for Steve Bannon. He says about Iran, the whole freedom isn't free thing, I don't think it's landing. I don't think anybody is really happy about this and believes that their lives are going to improve because of this war in Iran. This is Bannon. Listen to this. This phrase, freedom isn't free. I think when you do wars like this, I don't. I'm not so sure that's a. I'm not so sure that's a phrase that

[Donald Trump]

resonates with me, but I'm not happy

[David Pakman]

that we're in it. But you're in it. So you got to figure out how you have victory, because victory is what matters here. It would be catastrophic for us to not have victory in this. And I realize that may rub some people the wrong way, but that I think that's just a hard resource reality, what we have to deal with, Bannon's kind of saying, the whole idea of this Iran war is totally screwed up. But now that we're in it, if we lose the war, by whatever definition we're applying to that, we're really screwed. Now, Steve Bannon, you could say a lot of things about Steve Bannon. I think he's completely amoral, for example, but he's not a random critic and he's not a moron. He is one of the people who helped build Trumpism. So when Bannon says, I'm not happy we're in it, I don't think freedom isn't free, is landing with people. It's not resonating with people. This is a major red flag from inside of your movement, and it's about much more than just Iran, because the core of what Trump sold to his voters was, I'm a strong man, I'm alpha, I'm great. A lot of Republican Republicans run with that. That's not unique to Trump, but I'm going to be a Republican. That ends the Bush era formula of endless wars and patriotic slogans like freedom isn't free and making working people pay the price for your delusions. A huge part of the MAGA pitch was no more of that stuff. No foreign entanglements, no stupid wars. I never would have got into Iraq. Even though Trump previously said that, that he actually would have. So when Bannon goes, this isn't resonating. What he's really saying is the branding that Trump sold us, it doesn't match the product. And the interesting part is that Trump's coalition, I guess I would call it, has always had two instincts inside of it. There's been the nationalist, anti interventionist instinct, which is what Trump pushed. But Trump was pushing it rhetorically. And there was a wing that was genuinely suspicious of foreign wars, focused on borders, prices, the decline at home. Tucker Carlson is kind of in that wing. The other wing that ultimately came to support Trumpism is the old Republican hawkishness. But they put on the MAGA hat and they were attracted by military force. They were attracted by the performance of strength and military parades and actual military action abroad. Trump kind of kept those groups together because he made both of them believe he was on their side. This is sort of like, you know, take any issue on abortion. Do we punish the women? Well, you got to punish the women. Trump told Chris Matthews back during his first campaign. And then the next day the campaign goes, yeah, he didn't mean that. We got to punish the doctors. So if you want the women punished, you go, oh, Trump did say they should be punished if you want to punish the doctors. Trump said that too. And then on a later day, Trump goes, but you got to have some exceptions. So if you're for exceptions to no abortion, you've got that as well. For a while, Trump being the anti war guy, but appealing to the hawkish rah rah pro bombs people was able to work because he didn't immediately go in and start new wars. But then now he's doing it. And so now with Iran, once you're in a real war, you can't keep going. I'm the peace candidate. Now he's trying by saying, we need to do this to get to peace, or I'm getting involved to end a war that Iran started. I don't think his followers are believing that crap. And Steve Bannon understands something that a lot of Republicans don't, which is that it's less about Iran specifically, although I don't think any of them think going into Iran is worthwhile. It's about being betrayed because they came to believe that Trump was different and they are now reconsidering that. I don't believe that this means MAGA collapses tomorrow. We're doing an analysis. It doesn't mean this is it. A lot of these people are ultimately going to fall in line. They usually do. But there's a very real split here, and it matters because it shows that Trumpism was never a coherent governing philosophy. He was able to hold it together by a string with rhetoric where he would coalesce certain types of anger and grievances and anti war rhetoric. But he's also a macho natural nationalist, so he must also be kind of like George W. Bush. It all worked a little bit, but it was hanging by a thread and now it explodes. So one of the clearest signs that Trump's war with Iran is creating major problems domestically is that Bannon is going Freedom isn't free, just isn't landing. I'm not happy we're in it, but God forbid we lose, which is the next problem Trump is facing. It's not clear he can win this war, even by the standards he set. 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[Alex Wagner]

All right. Alex Wagner is here.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Hi Dave.

[Alex Wagner]

Great to talk to you.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Thank you for having me. I feel very honored.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I was very interested to see your latest substack post. Hegstaff is maybe the worst of all, and I'm very interested in this. And actually I was with the governor, Gavin Newsom recently and I asked him. Now that was I He's a nasty guy, as Trump would say. And I asked him, you know, now that Kristi Noem is gone, who do you think is the most dangerous or the worst? And he said without hesitation, Stephen Miller. And I think Stephen Miller certainly has traits and characteristics that are extremely disturbing. But Pete Hegseth right now is at the center of what seems to be, as I call it, Schrodinger's War. It is a war, and it's not a war. It's an over, but it's just getting started. Why Hegseth, though? Like, lay out the case, I guess.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I mean, I think you basically nailed it, which is, I mean, Stephen Miller is a fascist and is the architect of our national despair, no doubt. But the fact is we need information from Pete Hegseth, right? I mean, I think there's still a lot of us that are interested in what is being done in our name. The atrocities, the war crimes and the, you know, the war that's being waged in our name. And for that, we need information from the Pentagon and from the Secretary of Defense. And so we are forced to be reliant on Pete Hegseth for information and I guess strategy in a way that we're not with Miller. I mean, Miller right now exists in shadows. And I'm not saying that he's like more or less nefarious than Stephen Miller. But I think his role in public life is different. And I find each and every briefing that Pete Hegseth gives is worse than the last, which is saying something because they're all pretty awful. You know, his, like, so faux sincerity and faux empathy, his testosterone fueled patriotism, his, you know, insincere religiosity, I mean, just all of it is, he is so without true moral character. And it's on display in a really visceral way on a daily basis. And that's why, why I find him the most insufferable and caveat is like, for right now, right? Like, that's, I mean, I, I, I've always found him to be clownish and dangerous. And this moment, I think, ratchets all that up to an exponentially high level. But some other thing will happen when another member of Trump's inner circle has a spotlight on him or her. And I'm sure I'll find them equally distasteful. But for me right now, as I say in the piece, like the Pentagon and the villainy on display there deserves its own curtain call.

[Alex Wagner]

One of the things that feels sort of different about Iran from what I'm seeing, and I'm curious if you're seeing the same thing, is that sometimes with these military engagements, if you question them from the left, you kind of get very quickly branded as what? So you like the ayatollah, you think these radical theocracies are good. And one of the things that my sense is it's not landing quite as well. Like, I've been very clear with my audience. I'm an anti authoritarian progressive, so the ayatollah is not my cup of tea. Kim Jong Un, Putin, Maduro and Chavez, the Cuban regime. Like, I'm just, I'm a small L Libertarian in the sense of I'd rather not have governments control things unless we have a really good reason to do so. And it seems clear that people get, you can say this is not a theocratic regime, that our values would say, hey, this is great, but there's a reason that many presidents for decades could have done this but chose not to. And Trump seems to have been goaded into it. So I guess my question, what I'm building to here is, is there a clear understanding here that support of the regime is a completely separate question from saying, this is a good idea?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah, it's such a good point to bring up because I think at the outset of the attack, there were a group of older Democrats, especially in elected office, who felt like they needed to. I'm no fan of Khamenei, but I think this is the wrong move. And. And I don't think people feel that need, that they need to clarify. Like, I'm no friend of an autocrat, because in part, people like Trump in 2012 and 13 and 14 and 15 had a NA were part of a national conversation about why regime change was bad and that you could not be a supporter of regime change and American interventionism and wars without end, and you could exist in the Republican Party and in the conservative movement because you understood that just spending, hemorrhaging blood and treasure forever was not in America's interests. Right. Like that normalized, I think, a reluctance to go to war and made it nonpartisan, which is why, in this moment, you're not gonna necessarily be branded sort of a fan of autocrats if you say, hey, maybe attacking Iran and spinning the region into a global war that has engulfed 20 countries and killed 1300 people and numerous American service people and is not a good idea. I just think, if anything, the hangover of the Iraq war taught us some lessons, and we would do well to understand them. And I think some certain number of people do, and it has changed the conversation, I guess, for the better, because it's not just this neatly sort of partisan landscape in which you have to argue one way or the other.

[Alex Wagner]

I saw just now a clip of Senator Blumenthal saying that he just came out of a briefing, and I'm paraphrasing, but this was, like, the most disturbing briefing of his career, and that he seems to have come away believing that we're moving towards troops on the ground. Now, there's kind of like two stories here. One is Trump said that this is basically complete yesterday. I don't know what that means, but he said it's because when you look at all of the possible metrics, none of them have actually been accomplished. But that's a separate, separate story. Second part of it is it really doesn't seem like when gas prices have gone up 22% in a week and 92,000 jobs were lost in February, People's 401ks are collapsing. I don't see any appetite, even from the people who like these sorts of interventions, to start committing ground troops. Is there any political wing that is into that, in your opinion?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

No. I mean, I think this is where Trump is. Like, this is the most dangerous Trump, I think, which is when his ego is on the line and he's backed into a corner. Right. Like, this was a Mistake. It is not Venezuela. It is the thing that most American presidents didn't want to see happen.

[Donald Trump]

Right.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

And he's the one doing it, and he owns it entirely. And as you say, none of the goals have been achieved. But he also sees the political reckoning that's about to take place in November, the way in which this has completely derailed his party on the economic message and the fact that it could. The situation in Iran could end up measurably worse than it was before the US Even went in. And so this is where I think he becomes the most unpredictable. And I do think he's talking out of. I mean, it's not just what I think. He's clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth. And there's the intended audience, I think, sometimes, which is the markets, which is when he says, it's almost over and, like, please stop freaking out about oil prices and don't worry. I'm like, calm yourselves. And then there's this sort of commander in chief where he is, you know, on Air Force One, or he says, you know, this is the collateral damage of war. People are gonna die. This is just what it takes. You know, you have to stick with me. I genuinely don't know which Trump is gonna be actually calling the shots in the next couple days, but I think the door is open to any possibilities. And so, in the same way that it's unclear what was the catalyst was for actually giving the green light to start attacking Trump, to start attacking Iran and assassinate its leader. I don't know what the catalytic agent will be for him to decide whether to put boots on the ground. But I don't. I mean, I just. I don't think any of us know because he's so wildly unpredictable in moments like this.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

I have to imagine that as reckless as he can be when he gets an idea that he's not going to be talked out of it, at the same time, he is sort of known for doing what the. The last person he speaks to before a decision suggests. And I have to imagine that, you know, there were these reports that Friday people were running around the White House screaming about gas prices, Susie Wiles and other people, because all of a sudden, they're dealing with this problem. I have to imagine that there are people around him, all of whom would say this is objectively a disastrous idea. You will destroy your presidency. You will destroy the party.

[David Pakman]

And.

[Alex Wagner]

But maybe I'm wrong, or maybe he wouldn't listen to them. I don't know.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I don't think Trump cares about the part. I mean, the fact that he's, I think it's very telling that he's bringing up the Save America act again, that his strategy for the midterms is not, let me put the Republican Party in the best place possible on like as much of a glide path as I can to hold onto Congress. It's, let's rig the system because I know I'm about to lose and like, keep people from voting. The fact that he's talking about this in the middle of a political maelstrom is, is indicative of someone who, who's not really navigating the waters in the best way for his party. So I don't think that, I mean, yes, I think it matters that Susie Wiles is saying things. I think it, some of that resonates. But to your point, you know, Lindsey Graham on the golf course can convince him to attack. I just think we're all over the place here. And if, if I, I suppose the, the thinking will be if I can convince myself to convince the American public that having an even harder line cleric in, in the role is enough of a success to get out, then I'll get out. I mean, I do think Trump understands that troops on the, on the ground is going to ratchet this up even, even more. But I don't think that that, and, and I, and it will make life very difficult for him and his party, but I don't think that that's necessarily, that makes it a non starter.

[Alex Wagner]

Let's talk a little bit about the Democratic Party. We both recently saw the Gavin Newsom book tour up close and personal. I'm very interested in what's going on right now. I mean, I think big picture, there seem to be a lot of possible 20, 28 candidates who are writing books, who are doing book tours, who are taking as many interviews and getting as much exposure as they kind of can. I'm curious your view on in the space I occupy. I'm seeing a lot of comments from people on the left about, here's my laundry list of people I will never vote for, whether it's in a primary, whether they make it to the general. And there's a lot of people on that list. There's Gavin Newsom, there's Josh Shapiro, there's JB Pritzker, there's Pete Buttigieg, there's certainly Kamala Harris is high on the list as ocean. My view has always kind of been, I, of course, have preferences that are more or less aligned with my political views. But at the End of the day, when it comes, when it is election Day, I will look at my options and say, what's the best option? Sometimes the best option is the least bad. Sometimes the best option is someone you genuinely like.

[David Pakman]

I don't know.

[Alex Wagner]

But for my sort of way of approaching things, it's weird to say many years out, if X is the nominee, I will never vote for them. Not even knowing who's going to be

[David Pakman]

the sort of other option.

[Alex Wagner]

Say whatever you want about kind of how I framed it. If you have, you know, an idea there. And also, do you believe that there is a greater rift right now within the political left than there has been in years past?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

That's hard to say. I mean, Trump does mask a lot of divisions within the party, right. He's so. The evil is so clear and present that it's become a very effective rallying tool for the party, the Democratic Party. I don't get the same converse. I don't, I don't see the same level of dismissal at the stage of the game. And the Democrats that I speak with, what I see is a party much more at sea. And I'm not gonna say in the wilderness, because I do think Democrats could win the White House and I do think that they have a case for Democratic governance. But I see a kind of like, real lack of leadership within the party, a real gravitational center. And that is dangerous, I think, on some level. But it also, I think, is people that I speak to are like, I don't know, I mean, I'm gonna go for whoever's gonna win, but I don'. Know, I mean, it opens the field to, I mean, anything could happen. And I think it's, it's a real question about how much, for example, immigration is litigated in the 2028 campaign. And, and honestly, what Congress does, if Democrats agree in power of one or both houses there, it's going to force the Democrats to really decide what the party is about and what the platform is and how much it's about, you know, correcting the grave ills of the Trump administration or acting as an oversight body and, or, and I know people are gonna say, you can walk and chew gum, you can do both. But they are gonna have to make choices about what they wanna do first. Is it about proposing new legislation? Because there's a fuck ton that Congress. Sorry, my language. There's so much that they could and should enshrine into law. And we see in the Trump administration how important it is to have a functioning Congress and, or they could act as a check on Trump's worst impulses. It all depends on the balance of power and it depends on, you know, how the party decides to move forward. And I do think that that's going to have a role in, you know, who rises to the top of what I think will be a very crowded primary field in 2028. I mean, I just think it's. I guess what I'm saying is I think it's super wide open and most of the people I talk to are just kind of like, have thrown their hands up and they're like, okay, well, we'll see, you know, and there's both peril and opportunity in that.

[Alex Wagner]

How would you go about objectively answering the question? If we have the political spectrum and the last nominee, Kamala Harris is here, wherever here is.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

How would you answer this here?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I guess it's center.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Center left.

[Alex Wagner]

Center left, I guess.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Okay.

[Alex Wagner]

How would you decide whether in 2028 the Democratic Party would be better served by moving left or more to the center from the last nominee? Like, how would you analyze that?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I just think, I think it's a. I don't know that I would put. I just, I, I think Harris, with her 107 days to run and the kind of candidate she was, was just incredibly cautious. And the fact that she was the vice president for the sitting president was just insanely cautious, too cautious in many ways. I think in terms of articulating real fulsome positions on anything and giving people a sense of what it meant to be a Democratic president. I mean, I think you need to see a lot more from Democrats as far as what they actually want to do. And I guess I wouldn't use her as the sort of the compass point. You know, I just think there was so much gray area in that candidacy. I guess she was center left, but on some things she felt very center, and on others it was just, it was incoherent what her position was. And so, I mean, I think what Democrats are going to have to do, unlike Kamala Harris, is to really stake out a position. And I genuinely think, and I'm really not trying to be, both sides are here. Well, at least in terms of the left, I genuinely think that what people want right now and what voters want are Democrats to show conviction and to be honest. And I think if you have a Democrat out there who's like, I really believe that we need to build on the immigration reform, this is just an example, but I need, you know, has more of a centrist position on Immigration and makes a full throated argument for that and is ready to take incoming on it, you can sell that to the American public. Likewise, if you have a much more radically populist economic agenda, I do think you can sell that to the American people too. But what matters is that the people who are selling these ideas to the American public as candidates are authentic about it and they. The conviction is real. I mean, I, if there is one thing to learn about Trump, who is, you know, arguably without any kind of compass at all, he listens to himself and that is hugely attractive to American voters. And I think Democrats need to have conviction about what they stand for. And within that framework, there's a lot of space to run whatever platform they want. I don't think we're at a moment where it's like the country is crying for this particular piece of policy. I think that what they're calling for more is somewhat of character and conviction. I sound like a fucking politician myself. Sorry.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, what I think is interesting is sometimes there in the postmortems of 2024, there's. I've interviewed people who say, you know, what were Kamala Harris's top three policies? And the whole point is like, well, I don't really know. And it's sort of like, gotcha. But what you're kind of saying is like, maybe that's not actually the most important thing. And it's that she just wasn't connecting with voters in a more authentic way.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

You just didn't get a sense that she had true conviction about any of these issues. I mean, I, that's not, I don't mean that to be a slight because I think she had an enormously difficult task. But I also think that was a problem with her 2020 campaign. It's like, well, where do you really stand on this? And that was thrown into, like a compression chamber in 2024 where she had no time to actually sort through how she wanted to market herself as a candidate and just had to go, go, go.

[David Pakman]

Right.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I, I think you have to, you, you just, you have to know who you are and what you believe to win this thing. And I think that there's a lot of running room that everybody's. That the candidates can have with regards to specific policy. Like, I would never say you have to have it. You know, it has to be this way on taxes, or this way on healthcare, or this way on immigration. I think it's like, you gotta sell it, you gotta believe it, and you gotta, like, really go out there and be Unafraid.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you have an opinion right now as to the potential role of the. And this is like, this is not all one wing, but aoc, Zoran Mamdani, James Tallarico, you know, that group that activates maybe a slightly different wing of voter from the Democratic Party or even from outside the Democratic Party, people that are, like, on the left, but they don't consider themselves or aren't Democrats. Do you have a sense of what the role of that wing will be in 2028 or what it should be?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I think you could see some of them running. Like, I just. I think aoc, I think all of them are immensely talented and they sort of prove my point, which is like, you know, they are specific to their own. I mean, what did you say Talarico isn't? I mean, I would argue Talarico is more center left than generational difference, more than anything else with the rest of the field. But, like, you know, Mamdani and AOC are products of New York, Right. And so they come from a political culture. But what we should learn from them is like injecting vibrancy and humor and normalcy and, you know, connection is essential in any, in any season of politics, but especially now. And I don't. I really love how there is a warmth and a genuineness and a lack of apology about who they actually are that is so alluring. And I think those sort of. I mean, I don't mean to make it all sound like it's about character, because I obviously think that the meat of the thing is what you're actually proposing. But I would be loathe to apply the lessons from a New York mayoral run to national political run. Right. But I do think when it comes to bringing people inside the tent and appealing to voters who don't necessarily think of themselves as Democrats, it's about harnessing communications the way that they all have in unique and really interesting ways. But it's fundamentally about. I mean, it's a generational difference of, like, how they see politics is very different than how Chuck Schumer sees politics and their level of accessibility, their level of honesty and humor. And there's. I really think the joyful warrior thing is really, really works for all of them. And that is. That is something that makes people want to listen to you. You know, if you're in the fight and you're there for real and you're enjoying it, you bring people along with you.

[Alex Wagner]

When it comes to the Republican side, it's been interesting the last few weeks. Trump's been expressing what I can really only describe as this lack of confidence in which direction, you know, there's this Rubio vs. Vance thing that keeps coming up where, you know, he seems. Although Vance is maybe the obvious heir apparent just because he's vp, I don't know that Trump likes him that, that much. He's extremely unlikable and uncharismatic. And Marco Rubio, it's not like I would go, we need Marco Rubio as president. But given the option between Rubio and Vance, I find Rubio to be much more intelligent, knowledgeable, much smarter as a politician, understands diplomacy. Okay, what do you think about question one? Is Trump even going to be in a position to choose his heir? Because I think if he gets weakened by the midterms, he may not even be the kingmaker. And two, is the Republican Party going to want to go away from anything that seems maga, or is MAGA maybe here to stay?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I mean, I hate making predictions, especially where it concerns Trump. Right. I don't know. I think Trump is a really unique creature in American politics. And as loathsome as I find him, he's also uniquely talented in terms of his connection and his almost the religious fervor he brings to the game. And so I would be hesitant to dismiss him even if the economy's in the shitter and jobless rates are high. He appeals to people on a really visceral, almost religious level. Like, I've been to a number of Trump rallies in course of. Of life, being a reporter, and there's something about them that's really kind of unique and deeply emotional. And that's nobody else that I know in the Republican Party has that when it comes to JD Vance and Marco Rubio. Listen, if you can't order donuts on the campaign trail and make a viral video out of it, you're not meant to be the President of the United States.

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I think, think, you know, I think Vance is an incredibly weak candidate. But I also, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Marco Rubio gave the response to the State of the Union with the little water bottles. Like, he's not exactly a comfortable candidate himself. Like, it's just that we're operating in the, like, the world of the least worst options that, like, and I will say in the Senate, Marco Rubio did do some things with bipartisan appeal. And I would imagine he would tack more towards the center if he actually did become the nominee. I also imagine that he was promised the, you know, Trump's ring if he became his Secretary of State. So Trump is.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, you think so?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Oh, for sure. I'm sure. He, like, I, I wouldn't be surprised if you saw a Vance Rubio ticket if, like, if that, and I don't know who's at the top of it, but like, I think promises were made along the way. I mean, and being Secretary of State isn't a bad gig either. But I'm sure Trump loves to dangle, whether it's pardons or power, he loves to dangle carrots at the end of the wand. So I, you know, I, I, I don't think we know who is going to be up and who's going to be down by 2028, but you can be sure that Trump is going to draw out the process and make a reality TV show out of it because that's what he loves to do, is play his children off of each other. Just ask Ivanka, Don and Eric.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I think that's, that's the safest bet that Trump will try to assert a gamification of it to the extent that, that he can. Alex Wagner will link to the substack. We'll link to the podcast.

[David Pakman]

Great to talk to you.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you so much.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Thanks so much. It was great to talk to you too.

[Alex Wagner]

We'll talk to you soon.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Bye.

[Alex Wagner]

Bye.

[David Pakman]

If you felt the Internet getting colder and creepier, more propaganda, more surveillance, you are not imagining it. The big social platforms are optimizing for control. That's why I'm excited to tell you about our sponsor, Haven Social. Protecting users and creators from manipulation and surveillance. Haven is building an image and video based social media operating in the Instagram and YouTube lane that supports both short form clips and long form landscape video. But when you post on Haven, they will automatically make it harder for facial recognition systems to identify you. They will poison your images so that the AI scrapers can't learn from your content. Haven is also fighting exploitative algorithms. Algorithms with a clearer transparent recommendation system and a reverse chronological feed so you see posts in order. Unlike the big tech social media platforms, Haven is about building a space outside of that control, protecting your privacy, giving people a place to share and stay informed. And Haven also will make it easy to transfer your posts and reconnect with followers. So switching platforms doesn't mean starting from scratch. You can support Haven's Kickstarter at David pakman.com/haven social. The link is in the description. We haven't heard interviews with your average Trump supporter for a while. And part of the reason that we haven't is that there haven't been Trump rallies for a while, but we got one. Why? Because Trump is desperate to save his collapsing presidency. He's been underwater in terms of approval for over a year now now. So Trump held a rally in Kentucky and outside of the rally, Newsmax as well as what was this other one? Real America's Voice both interviewed Trump supporters and it's really, really, really, really bad.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Ending silence. And sir, why is that? Why, why are there no Thomas Massie supporters here for Donald Trump?

[David Pakman]

I can't speak for this area, but.

[Donald Trump]

Right.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Well, I'm four hours from here.

[David Pakman]

I'm in Western Kentucky. So Thomas Massie to me has been a formidable person in the Trump administration, but he has a tendency to flip flop on some issues and he does

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

vote with the president about 90% of the time though. Let me ask you, sir, the war in Iran, is this going be to, to help the president if he now

[David Pakman]

just so people know, the gentleman they're now speaking to about Iran is wearing a donkey pox shirt. Okay, get out of it in the

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

next couple of weeks or could this potentially hurt him heading into the midterms?

[Donald Trump]

I think it should help.

[David Pakman]

The Iran war will help Trump in the midterms and it will help Republicans. This analysis I have to hear, it doesn't last too long.

[Donald Trump]

We don't want it to last too long. But it's something that need to be

[David Pakman]

done for 47 years. Absolutely it's needed to be done for 47 years. This guy fell for the talking point.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

What's on the ground? Does that concern you, sir?

[David Pakman]

Yes, sir. I've got a grandson in Jordan at this oh particular time and it does concern you. But at the same time, I'm like Danny, I do feel like it's needed to be done for a long time.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Thank you all very much. We appreciate it.

[David Pakman]

You know, one of the interesting things is they started. This is a very interesting illustration of how talking points filter down to people who don't really even understand them. This 47 years talking point has been floating around. This regime has been in place for 47 years and this should have been done 47 years ago. And therefore Trump is right to do it and every other president was wrong. Except over the last 47 years, it's not just been Democratic presidents that, that have opted not to try to kill and remove the Iranian regime, it's also been Republican presidents. And you end up in a situation where you have to argue for one of two things. Either Trump knows something or is stronger and Powerful and more audacious and more alpha than every other president. And Trump is doing the right thing. And every other president was wrong not to go into Iran and try to kill the ayatollah. Or Trump got goaded or baited because he's so gullible into doing this thing, either by Iran or Israel or some combination of the two. These individuals never consider, maybe the reason we didn't do it for 47 years was that it was a bad idea. Maybe other presidents understood the warnings from intelligence officials and military officials, officials that, hey, we would take a lot of losses. Hey, this would be really bad for the economy, by the way. They might just put in place the next heir to the theocratic ayatollah's regime. But they have fallen for the 47 years talking point, as in, if we could have done it for 47 years, we should have done it. And therefore, Trump is right, which lacks a lot of critical thinking. Here's another one. Here's Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend and, I guess, fiance Brian Glenn, also interviewing people at Trump's rally. And it's terrifying for you guys coming

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

up on the midterms. And what's the number one concern for you right now?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I mean, just really just want the Republicans to show out and not be too confident. That's a really concern for mine. And just making sure that all these policies get pushed through. Some of them are no brainers.

[Alex Wagner]

No brainer.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Like to say that. No brainer. Voter id, right, Brian?

[David Pakman]

Correct.

[Donald Trump]

Simple, right?

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Pretty simple, yeah. Why did you vote? I'm assuming you voted for President Trump. What was the number one issue why you voted for President Trump this past election? He's just a great person all around.

[Donald Trump]

He's genuine.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

He cares about the country, cares about people, and just. Yeah, he's really way. Steve. Gulf of America. There you go right there. You got to love that.

[David Pakman]

These are true cultists.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Well, number one issue for you.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Pro life. I am pro life. Yeah.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

See the pro life representative. How about you, sir? Immigration, Immigration. Immigration. Lock the borders down. How about you, sir? I. I'm here to support our troops, and I think that we should take

[David Pakman]

good care of them and. Wait a second, wait a second. Support the troops and take good care of them. Does that count as what Trump is doing with this optional war where troops are dying and being injured? Is he taking care of them and

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

try to do things, articulate things well

[David Pakman]

and be disciplined with our planning and.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

And fight the rules of engagement? Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Number one issue for you, sir.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'm a dad of two young

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

kids, so I guess I'll say family value, family values. How about you?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

I'm just proud to be an American.

[Donald Trump]

There you go.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

I like that. Might be the best answer I've got all day. How about you guys? One issue.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

What do you think? Probably pro life and stuff like that.

[David Pakman]

What's our number one issue? She asks her friend, can you tell me what, like, what am I supposed to say here?

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Pro life, things like that. I like that. How about you, sir? Bombing the snot out of Iran. Bombing the snot I have out of Iran. That's a unique one. How about you guys? Number one issue? This, this campaign?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Well, I just think in general, the country needs to get in their bible more.

[Alex Wagner]

That's awesome.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, I'm not interested.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Not interested. You're just here to enjoy the free popcorn. Let's go inside. All right, number one issue for you guys right now on the ballot and why should we pass the SAVE Act?

[Donald Trump]

I'm not from.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

You're not from around here. We got to pass it. Do you support voter id? I need a vote. There you go. You just, you just voted yes on that. Number one issue for you guys.

[David Pakman]

These interviews are not going particularly well

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

since we wrap this up. Number one issue for you and do you support voter ID to vote?

[Donald Trump]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

That is a no brainer, right? How you doing, beautiful? How you doing today?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Just fine.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

What's your name? Where you from?

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Mindy, from Hebron, Kentucky.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Hebrew, Kentucky. Local. Number one reason why you love President Trump.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

He's real.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

Yeah, he's truthful. Anything you'd like for him to work on or what? What do you think his focus should be? Going into the midterms.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

More chairs inside.

[Trump Rally Interviewer]

More chairs inside so we can all get in. Yeah, I would love that as well. You know, there's a packed crowd here for you. Big, big race as well. And Massey being challenged. I don't want to get your thoughts on Thomas Massey anyway.

[David Pakman]

You kind of get the point. It's extremely low information, folks, and a lot of confusion as to what is Trump doing for the people. It's very interesting to hear. Well, Trump is genuine. He cares about the average person. And then you got the guy who goes, well, I have kids, so my most important thing is family values. Oh, what about sending people's kids into war? An optional war, A war in which it seems as though the objectives you've laid out are, in a practical sense, impossible to achieve. Well, I'm just. I like Trump because of family. Values, huh? That's kind of weird. Doesn't really make too much sense. The important thing for us to remember is that laughing at these people might make us feel good in the short term, but it's extremely unproductive and we need to do something electorally to try to make it so that their will is superseded by us coming out in great numbers because we can point and laugh all we want. They don't know this, they don't know that, that. But Republicans have figured out how to actually get power and how to actually achieve wins, which then they can go and do whatever the hell they want. And so looking at the voters, it's important and interesting to understand how the propaganda trickle down, trickles down, how people are being propagandized to, etc. But at the end of the day, if we don't do something to make sure that they lose, they are only going to remain in power. And that's a real, that's a problem for every American. And even then, I want to get people like Trump out of power, even to help these folks. On the bonus show today, John Cornyn flips on the filibuster as Trump is considering endorsing him or Ken Paxton. Wow, what a sycophant. We will also see why every Senate Democrat, except for John Fetterman, has called for a probe of the Iran school massacre. And finally, Iran's soccer team will not be allowed to participate in the FIFA World Cup. Her, the Iranian minister. Oh dear God. All of those stories and more on today's bonus show. Sign up@join pacman.com I'll see you then.

[Alex Wagner]

Quick pause. Something useful for you. Love fishing. TikTok isn't just for young people. It's full of real tips. Better not better baits, better catches. Quick videos from people who actually fish. Download TikTok now.