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Donald Trump heads to China surrounded by billionaires, family members in a scene that looks not at all like international diplomacy and more like an oligarch convention on Air Force One. We have a new report alleging a behind the scenes plan to remove Donald Trump using the 25th Amendment. I will explain the logistics to you. It involves J.D. vance, Marco Rubio. Is it even realistic? And speaking of J.D. vance, his odds of being the 2028 presidential nominee have collapsed. We're going to talk about why, what this means for the future of the Republican Party. Major questions spiral as Donald Trump is reportedly going for his third dental visit of the year. It's not even mid May, by the way. Repeated cognitive exams continue being administered and Trump is again going for a full workup at Walter Reed. And, and the explanations from the White House are very strange. And finally, the administration admits it's not thinking about the finances of the average American household. You're paying more for this, you're paying more for that. They don't care. They have other priorities. We will talk about all of that and so much more. Today. There is a plan to remove Donald Trump now, soon, like in the next couple of months. And I have to tell you about it. I'm going to tell you each step of this plan. This is from a piece that Robert Reich recently wrote about on his substack, and it outlines a plan that he heard about. Now, I've told you before, there are only a few ways out before Donald Trump's term ends. One is Trump dies or is completely incapacitated. The other is impeachment. And then there's the 25th amendment. I've also told you that the 25th amendment and impeachment seem essentially impossible. What Robert Reich writes about and will link to his piece is a version of the 25th Amendment plan that is in play specifically because of the drama between J.D. vance and Marco Rubio. So let me explain it and, and then I'll tell you whether I think that this is viable. Robert Reich writes that he was recently at a dinner with political operatives and that they believe this is the most realistic plan to remove Trump soon. And it goes like this. Step one, food and gas prices stay so high that much of the Republican base turns on Trump during this summer and Trump's cognitive problems become even more obvious so that the Republican Party is sort of less and less attached to the idea of Trump as someone that they want in power. Step two is that Vice President J.D. vance goes to the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio and says, hey, listen, if you join me in saying we've got to remove Trump through the 25th Amendment. I will make you the vice president when I become president. And Rubio goes, all right, I would go for that. Vance and Rubio together go to speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Senate Majority Leader John Thune, and they say, this is what we're thinking about doing. Johnson and Thune say we would support it. Then Vance and Rubio goes to Pete Hegseth and says, hey, if you support this, we'll give you job security as Secretary of Defense. You get to keep your job after Trump is gone. And then they go to Todd Blanch, the interim attorney general, and they say, hey, if you are on board with this, you will be the permanent attorney general. And that becomes enough to convince others in the Cabinet to follow along. They communicate this to Johnson and Thune, and Johnson and Thune act on it in accordance with the 25th Amendment. Now, the reason J.D. vance would like it is, listen, he gets to be president right away. And it also sets him up really well for 2028. It also short circuits what could be a really ugly Vance versus Rubio Republican primary in 2028. Rubio then is set up himself for 2032 or maybe for 2036. And Republicans finally do away with Trump in a way that they can run on. We got rid of them. We decided to move on. Don't punish us for the fact that he was at the head of the Republican party for over 10 years. We eventually came around and got rid of him. Now, here's the disclaimer. Even according to Robert Reich, even the people pushing this rank it at 30% odds, not great, meaning it most likely does not happen. The exception is, again, the war with Iran continues. The odds continue to rise as Americans are increasingly unhappy with Trump and MAGA and current Republican leadership. So that's the plan. Now, let me tell you what the plan does not account for. For all of the reasons that J.D. vance might want to do it, I think J.D. vance would be too afraid because if it didn't work, he is done. And the full wrath of Trump would rain down upon him. Similar with Marco Rubio, for all the reasons Marco Rubio might want to do it. I don't even know that Marco Rubio wants to wait until 2032 or 2036 to have a shot at being president. And I think Rubio thinks Vance will be terrible as president and would actually damage Rubio's chances for whenever the next Republican has a chance at running. So I think Vance has reasons not to go with this and Rubio has reasons not to go with this. Then we talk about, well what about maga, Mike Johnson going along with it? I think the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson will be terrified that the plan won't work. And then if Trump finds out that Johnson was willing and was involved, that Mike Johnson's political career gets destroyed by Donald Trump. So the point is there are a lot of ways that this can go wrong and there are people who would be very afraid of how they will suffer if it doesn't go well after they say I'm involved and I'm interested now if we zoom out. I've been saying for a long time I believe the only real way Trump leaves a day early is if he is dead or incapacitated. And even the people that Robert Reich had dinner with, he acknowledges, say it's only a 30% shot. This is the best chance and the best chance has 30% odds. I actually would open up a question slightly differently. Which is what is more likely to happen, Trump dying in office or Trump being removed by the 25th Amendment? If we give the 25th Amendment scenario as described here a 30% chance, we'd have to look at the actuarial tables. But I think that the odds of Trump dying in office are probably equal to or greater than 30%. Although I should let's even see if I can find it. Actuarial Tables Odds of 79 year old man dying. Let's take a look and see what we can find. Actuarial life tables male who is 79 looks like. So according to the actuarial tables There is a 5 1/2% chance that Trump dies during the next year and over the next two years it would be looks like about 11 and a half.
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So.
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So you know, interestingly maybe the odds are actually higher with this 30% scenario of 25th amendment than Trump dying, at least according to the actuarial tables. I'll open it up to you. Does this scheme strike you as likely or even potentially likely to remove Donald Trump? It's very interesting but what I want to hear about from you is how likely do you believe that it is. Leave me a comment or send me an email info@david pakman.com I am going to show you the face of nepotism, the faces of corruption. Donald Trump suffered a mental breakdown on the way to China pushing out nonsensical truth social posts lands and walks off Air Force One in Beijing with Eric Trump, Lara Trump, you've got Elon Musk and it is A cadre of nepotism, kleptocracy, plutocracy and corruption. And if you believe that we are going to diplomatically negotiate for what's best for the United States during this harebrained trip to China, I believe that you are wrong. This is a money making trip. This is another trip to subvert the will of the American people and use American taxpayer money for the benefit and enrichment of Donald Trump, his friends and his family. We are looking at video of Donald Trump coming down very gingerly, I might add, off of the stairs on Air Force One. And you will see that then as they hit the red carpet, it is really a who's who of the people Donald Trump wants to impress and of the people Donald Trump wants to enrich, which include members of his own family. It is absolutely stunning that this is, I guess, considered relatively acceptable to a significant percentage of the American people and welcomed by waving Chinese and American flags. It's a whole, a, it's a whole event of pomp and circumstance. And it is just a reminder. As if I didn't. As if you needed a reminder. Donald Trump's wealth has skyrocketed since he took office, reportedly approaching $7 billion, even though he donates his $400,000 salary. Oh, that's so nice. But he's making billions off of the backs of the American people. Even, even CNBC noticing. Look at the people that he is coming off of the plane with.
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That we're looking at, on the, on the TV right now. There's a president, there's. There's Elon in the back there. You see Eric, you can see Purdue, David Ambassador. Yeah, I don't see Jensen just yet. I don't know. Yeah, I was, in fact, I was just texting Jensen. I see that. There's Jensen behind Eric there. I see him right there. Right, yes.
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I'm sorry, Senator, that's Jensen Wang from Nvidia, or as I've heard some people call it, na video. I like that. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Navidia. Look at this. Look at this. By the way, Donald Trump posting during the flight, there was drama. Is Jensen really with him? Donald Trump posting to Truth Social as they were flying to China. Quote, CNBC incorrectly reported that the great Jensen Wang of Navidia was not invited to the incredible gathering of the world's greatest businessmen and women proudly going to China. In actuality, Jensen is currently on Air Force One. And unless I ask him to leave, which is highly unlikely, CNBC's reporting is incorrect or as they say, in politics, fake news. It was an honor. It is an honor. Listen to this. It is an honor to have Jensen, Ellen, Tim Apple, Larry Fink, Stephen Schwarzman, Kelly Ortberg from Boeing, Brian Sykes from Cargill, Jane Fraser from Citi, Larry Culp from ge, David Solomon from Goldman Sachs, Sanjay Mehrotra from Micron, Cristiano Amon from Qualcomm and many others. Journeying to the great country of China, where I will be asking President Xi, a leader of extraordinary distinction, to open up China so that these brilliant people can work their magic and help the People's Republic to an even higher level. In fact, I promise that when we are together, which will be in a matter of hours, I will make that my very first request. I have never seen or heard of any idea that would be more beneficial to our incredible countries. Folks, put it all together. Trump, on his way to Air Force One to fly to China, scolded a reporter for asking about the ballroom budget doubling. Said that she is a dumb person. He said he doesn't think about the financial situation of Americans. And then he gets on a plane with a bunch of the most sort of vulture capitalist CEOs that there are who he wants to enrich further to go to China, an authoritarian regime and praises the authoritarian leader. Think about that. Reporters asking about how your hard earned tax money is being spent. You're a dumb person. Americans financial situations he doesn't care about. But what does he care about? Praising an authoritarian like President Xi and enriching himself, his family and the CEOs of all those companies that I just read to you. Air Force One is a flying billionaire convention. It is not a presidential delegation. And you know, Eric, Trump being part of an official China trip despite having no government role is insane. Musk appearing more important than Marco Rubio. Elon Musk had a more prominent position getting off of Air Force One than the Secretary of State. It says everything. Imagine Republican reaction if Hunter Biden walked off of Air Force One during trade talks with China. What would Fox News be doing? What would Benny Johnson and whoever be doing? It is like nothing I have ever seen before. And the proof is in the pudding. Trump's gotten billions of dollars wealthier since taking office. The second time they said we're going to be against the elites and you've got oligarchs surrounding the president. What we have the closest thing to oligarchs we have in the United States. And you know, unless I ask him to leave, Jensen is with me. That sounds more like dictator or a king. Not a president. And meanwhile, the actual Secretary of State, arguably the top diplomat of the country, fades into the background. What is happening? And I just want to talk directly to the Magas. Are you all ready to say that you were duped? Are you ready to acknowledge that this guy doesn't give a damn about you and cares about himself and his wealthy friends? Because if you're not, I don't know that there is anything that will ever make you see it. J.D. vance was supposed to be the future of Maga, the, the heir apparent, the guy who was going to inherit the movement when Donald Trump finally leaves politics. But his odds of being the 2028 nominee are collapsing. And meanwhile, there's a new poll that as Congresswoman AOC leading on the Democratic side. So let's go through it. Let's start with the Republican side. J.D. vance's chances have been slowly declining, declining, declining, while Marco Rubio is pushing close to Vance in the betting market odds. If you look at Kalsheet 2028 Republican presidential nominee, you'll see that at one point, J.D. vance's odds were as high as 56, almost 57%, with little Marco at only 9. And yet, over time, we've seen Vance's odds decline, decline, decline to where it is now. Almost a tie. Vance with a 34% chance, according to the betting markets, of being the nominee in 2028, and Marco Rubio at 30% with Tucker Carlson in third place. Dear God. At 6.3%. You know that Trump is going to notice this because something Trump cannot tolerate is weakness. He hates backing someone who looks like a loser or ends up losing. And JD Vance, as his chances decline, looks more and more like he could be a political liability for Donald Trump, not an asset, not the future of the movement. And for months, we've seen, you know, Republicans and the, the right wing media figures treat Vance like it's inevitable. It's going to be J.D. vance. He's young, sort of, he's aggressive. He's totally loyal to Trump. He's willing to say just about anything to stay in Donald Trump's good graces. But then reality started setting in and JD Vance gave more of these speeches and we realized, wow, this guy lacks all charisma. And he, he did interviews and we realized this guy has zero gravitas, he's stiff, he's overly rehearsed. And the energy of JD Sounds kind of like we've looked at six anonymous Twitter accounts and synthesized a response, and it sort of sounds like the comment section of podcasts or something like that. And maybe the most important thing is that Trump we can. There's a lot of criticisms of Trump. Trump has an entertainment value that is an important factor in his political success. JD Vance is not entertaining at all. And I, I wish that politics didn't come down to entertainment, but especially on the Republican side, it kind of does. And so you see that self destruction taking place. And for a long time. What's really interesting about seeing Marco Rubio surge is that in Trump world, Marco Rubio was the punchline to jokes for a very long time. The little Marco stuff. This guy's establishment. He's repeating the same thing over and over again on the debate stage. And Marco Rubio was humiliated by Trump in 2016, and now he's looking like a lot safer of a bet to a lot of Republicans. A lot of Republican donors are getting behind Marco Rubio as well. Rubio, you can say a lot of bad things about Marco Rubio, but he looks more polished on TV and he sounds more normal in interviews. And importantly, the donors and the insiders seem to see him as a potentially safer bet. So there is panic in MAGA world right now. It turns out that just because you're the most loyal to Trump, Which I guess J.D. vance is, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're the best shot. And in fact, we have evidence of that. DeSantis for a while was ultra loyal to Trump. Vivek Ramaswamy for a while was ultra loyal to Trump. And they were ultimately thrown by the wayside and kind of kicked out of MAGA world. And it is a very interesting thing to see. As far as these numbers go. Trump is sensing weakness. There's blood in the water, and Trump is turning on them. Now, I want to raise one other possibility before we look at the Democratic side. There is also a realistic shot that Donald Trump will be so diminished politically. I don't mean cognitively, although he probably will. Trump may be so weak politically by the time it becomes the moment of the primary that his endorsement may not make a difference. And that could also alter the dynamic dynamics here. If Republicans lose badly in the midterms, for example, the economy stays weak, prices remain high, tariffs stay in place, scandals, the whole thing. Trump may simply lose the aura of being the decider. A lot of Trump's power comes from the belief that he's unstoppable politically. He may be stoppable politically. Now, let's talk about the Democratic side. There is one new poll that has AOC leading the 2028 primary. Most polls still have Gavin Newsom leading, but interestingly, if we look at the betting market numbers Again, this is Kalshee 2028 Democratic presidential nominee Gavin Newsom's numbers have also declined. He peaked around 37% in early November. But Gavin Newsom has seen a steady decline in the odds that he becomes the nominee, going from about 37 all the way down to 23325 right now. One of the beneficiaries of this has been, to a degree, Kamala Harris, AOC hanging around 10%. But it is Kamala Harris that has gone from 5% also to about 10. I'm just reporting here, don't kill the messenger. I have indicated I don't think it would be a good idea for Kamala Harris to run again. If she wants to, she should. Voters should decide, get everybody into the pool and then decide one by one they can be eliminated. But my personal opinion is I don't really have any level of excitement behind Kamala Harris running again. So on the Democratic side, what a few months ago seemed like Newsom absolutely has it. His odds have diminished. So that's where the primary stands today. You might be saying, well, it's so far away. What happens between now and August is going to set the stage for the primary because the midterms are going to be determined by the perception of the economy at the end of summer and the midterms are going to set the stage for the 2028 primary. So although it's unusual, we really are in the thick of it already.
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I don't have a cat myself, but I have spent enough time around friends cats to know that there are picky cats when it comes to food.
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They don't like it, they won't eat it.
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- [23:40]
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- [24:59]
A
I see this show as just a part of a broader movement and I see our audience as the most important people in building this pro democracy movement that certainly opposes authoritarianism and is in favor of something very simple and relatively quaint. Right? We want the will of the people determining who our elected officials are, and we want our affected elected officials working to enact the will of the voters that put them in power. It seems like such a quaint notion when you've got a president gaining billions of dollars in net worth since being sworn in just a year and a half ago. But that's part of what we're doing here. We are independently funded. Our primary funding source is the audience. If you like what we do, I would be honored to have your support. You can read about memberships and sign up@join pacman.com you can read about becoming a Substack Premium subscriber at David pakman.com/substack and if that is out of reach for your current financial situation, cool. You can still help us by making sure you're subscribed on YouTube where we're pushing towards 4 million subscribers. You can make sure that you are subscribed to our free Substack newsletter@david pakman.com/substack really appreciate everybody in the audience. Once again they are acknowledging that they do not care about you struggling financially. They don't care. Trump said it again. He does not give a you know what he says. I don't think about Americans financial situation. Now when Donald Trump said this yesterday and the clip started going kind of viral, a lot of his defenders said, oh, it's out of context. He meant in the context of the war. You got to play the whole clip. Well, I have the whole clip and you tell me whether this seems to better. Here is Donald Trump on whether he thinks about the situation of the average American.
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When you're negotiating with Iran, Mr. President, to what extent are American financial situations motivating you to make a deal?
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Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about Americans financially situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one thing. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all.
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So what the MAGA right thinks makes this completely fine is that Trump isn't saying I don't care about the financial situation of Americans. He's saying he's not considering the financial situation of Americans in deciding whether the Iran war is the right or the wrong thing to do. Now maybe you hear that and you go attaboy Trump. He is simply doing what's right for the country without regard to how it's going to. But that's a disaster. He's the President of the United States. Part of what his responsibility is is to consider all of the consequences of his decisions. And so it's not a flex for the President to go. When I think about war with Iran, I don't think about what it's going to do to the average American. I just do what needs to be done with Iran. Well that sucks. That's terrible. That's an embarrassing thing to acknowledge. And in fact we know that Donald Trump was willing to take on, on the behalf of Americans much more financial strife than it's ended up being. What has happened is gas is up 66% since mid January. Foreclosures are at a six year high. We've had the most layoffs since the pandemic. Under the second Trump term, inflation is outpacing wage growth. As I told you yesterday, 70% of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the economy. 80% of the of Americans believe that in a year the economy is going to be worse than it is today, not better. Car loan delinquencies, AKA people late on car payments are at an all time high. And Trump goes, I don't consider at all what's going on for the average American financially. When I decided to do this optional war in Iran now it's actually even worse than that. You may remember that Donald Trump when asked about oil prices a couple of weeks ago, he said, you know, I actually thought oil prices would go to $200 a barrel, not 120. And he was okay with that. $200 oil barrels translate to eight or nine dollar gasoline. So what Trump has said is even believing that gas might go to eight or nine dollars a gallon for an unleaded gallon average. I still chose to go into Iran. And so you and I are in the position of saying to ourselves, was the Iran situation so urgent and so critical to national security that it would have been worth eight or nine dollar gas? They did not appear to have the nuclear weapons capabilities. Trump claimed their ballistic missiles capabilities did not include reaching the United States if it was for regime change. The Ayatollah son is now in power. So they didn't do that. Trump thinks that would have been worth it for eight or nine dollar gas. I don't Another example. Trump said, I expected the stock market to go down even more when I went into Iran and I did it knowing that. He said, I thought stocks would drop 20 or 25%. So Trump was okay with an optional war with unclear goals that was going to last three weeks. But we're 11, we're into week 11 right now thinking your 401k or retirement account would drop up to a quarter. And he said let's still do it. He truly doesn't care. I feel bad for the people that got duped and voted for him. I didn't fall for it, but also like I'm fine. I, you know the gas prices, yes, gas prices affect the cost of delivery for a lot of things. But like I don't drive a gas powered vehicle as my main car and I didn't get duped, but I feel bad for the people that did. Even if we look at them and go, these idiots voted for this guy three times, it was obvious what was going to happen. I still feel bad for them. And you know what, even if you don't feel bad for them, it's still bad for the country because when people have less money to spend on stuff that cuts demand side stimulus and it's bad for small business and businesses and it's bad for the local economy. But Trump making it very clear he thought it would be even worse, he still was fine with it. Didn't check with anybody, just did it, didn't even get congressional authorization. And he doesn't consider what is happening to the average American when he thinks about what to do in Iran. Think about that. When you vote in November, I think it makes a lot of sense to hold them accountable for what they promised and what they've done. Donald Trump could barely resist calling her a b tch. I'm so sorry for the language. Here is what took place. Donald Trump was asked a very good question by reporter Akayla Gardner. And you can see that he wants to go, this is a dumb bitch. But he goes, this is a dumb person. She asked a very, very reasonable question. Why has the price of the ballroom exploded? It was going to be one price and then another and another and another. And by the way, it was going to be paid for by donations and paid for by donations and donations and then now they want taxpayer money for it. And Trump, you can tell he wants to go, this is a dumb, dumb person, a dumb person.
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World. How buyers are different than your ballroom.
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So what happened is we have a ballroom that's under budget. It's going up right here. I've doubled the size of it because we obviously need that and we're right now on budget, under budget and ahead of schedule.
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Interesting that he says we are on budget and under budget. How could both be true?
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I doubled the size of it, you dumb person. Double the size.
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I doubled the size of it, you dumb person. I doubled the size.
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You are, you are not a smart person.
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A
And there he goes again. It's always the non white women that are the dumb ones. According to Donald Trump, he's defiantly proud of doubling the cost of a ballroom. We don't need. I think that there are two really important sort of thought experiments here, and they're not even really thought experiments because you could just, you can do it yourself. If you are a viewer of mine who works for a living and you live in, I don't know, maybe you live in Michigan, maybe you live in Idaho, maybe you live in Florida or wherever. And you're thinking about what housing costs and you're thinking about what health care costs and you're thinking about the state of the roads in your town or city and you're thinking about access to Internet and what your electricity costs. Is anyone out there going, you know, what we really need right now is a massive ballroom at the White House and my tax money should go towards that. Is there anyone in my audience who would think about it that way and say that this makes sense? I, I know that in some abstract sense you might go, well, it's the White House and it's stately and sure, a ballroom would be good, and maybe it would be better to have some events at the ballroom rather than the Washington Hilton or is some generic sense. But when you look around and you go, damn, look at what's happening in my community, look at what's happening with my financial budget and my tax money should go towards a massive, gaudy ballroom with. Was it marble or Brazilian granite or what? Whatever the hell it is Trump is talking about. Anybody out there who's willing to take that position. Now, as far as Donald Trump's reaction, again, to the reporter who. You're a dumb person. He reacts to policy criticism like it's personal disrespect. And this is, I want to be fair here. Trump is very guilty of this. But I've even had situations recently where we do an interview with a Democratic elected official, and I ask the questions I want to ask, and if I don't get an answer I like, or if I don't get an answer at all, I just ask the question again, and it's just called an interview. And we've gotten emails and texts and calls from staffers going, oh, we didn't really like the way that. That when we didn't know that it was going to be like that. And there is. There is a large contingent of elected officials, Democrats and Republicans, who don't want to be asked real questions by journalists. Getting questioned is objectively a problem. They don't like it. Now, Trump is by far the worst. You ask him about the ballroom and it becomes, you're a dumb person. And he gets aggressive, he gets emotional. And this is, of course, something that we have talked about for a long time is, why are the peasants asking me questions? And I'm annoyed by that. And there was a point where, you know, Trump's big selling point was, I understand regular people. I'm a business person. I'm around also. I know the names of the doormen in my buildings, like a real man of the people. But now, whenever any of this stuff comes up, Trump's like, I don't really care about the average person's finances. I don't know why this reporter is asking me real questions. What are these people doing? Don't they know I'm supposed to be left alone? And they're supposed to be praying at the altar of Trump. So that's where we are right now. And the symbolism is almost too perfect, right? Like, Americans are late on car payments to a greater degree than ever. And Trump's like, oh, we got to double the size of the ballroom and use taxpayer money for it. Anybody in my audience vote for that? Certainly not me. If you love having quality fresh breads and pastries at home with no hassle, our sponsor Wild Grain makes it easy. Wild Grain is a baked from frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries, fresh pastas. Everything arrives frozen and bakes in 25 minutes or less. No thawing required. Simple ingredients, slow fermentation process. It really improves the the flavor and texture. I always keep wild grain sourdough bread and croissants on hand. Convenient. Tastes like something you'd get from the bakery straight from freezer to oven. No planning required. The pasta is great too. I love having wild grain on the busy nights when I need something good but without spending a bunch of time on it. And wild grain boxes are customizable. You can get the variety box. They've got gluten free, free vegan, they've got a protein box. Get $30 off your first box plus free croissants for life. When you go to wildgrain.com/david or use the promo code David at checkout. The link is in the description.
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D
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A
The link is in the description I'm very interested today in Speaking with Ashley St. Clair, social media content creator, former MAGA firebrand, now speaking out against the movement. Ashley, really appreciate your time. Thanks for being on.
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B
Of course. Thank you. David, I told you off air but my mom loves your show so you're
- [40:14]
A
we love your mom. Hi to Ashley's mom. What? Tell me this, what? How do you get pulled into the MAGA activism to start with? Like, does someone recruit you? Does it surface naturally from social media posts?
- [40:27]
B
For me, it started as a combination of both, both on my college campus and on social media. So being Gen Z, I was chronically online. So I'm inundated with the Twitter sphere and that sort of content. And then I was also 18 years old in college and pulled into the Young Americans for Liberty and the Turning Point campus chapters. And combining that with then right leaning conservative post, it was very quickly that I got invited to my first Turning Point event. I'm getting my own special graphics, they're promoting my tweets, I'm meeting Don Jr. And Charlie Kirk and they're texting me, telling me I'm doing a great job. And at that time, something I discuss quite often about it is I was very vulnerable. I was a very insecure and broken 18 year old who came to college trying to find herself and what's supposed to be an exploratory journey, I was very quickly wrapped up in what I believe is a cult in which my identity was formed for me. So that social validation and the social media validation was very appealing to me at that age.
- [41:35]
A
So you were getting all of this positive feedback about what you were doing, which then reinforced your beliefs that what you're doing must be good, which then fueled your commitment to keep doing it, is what I'm hearing, yes.
- [41:49]
B
Especially at that age. When you're young, the, the acceptance of the crowd is really important. So it didn't matter if I was getting detractors because I'm like, look, I have a thousand people in my comments who are telling me I'm right and good job, right? So you know, that kind of foregoes critical thinking about your own opinions. You're like, look at all the people I have on my side. And, and when you're that young and you're getting 10,000 followers, we, we kind of get immune to the number on the screen now in our current age. But when you're that young and you see you have 10,000 people, you're like, oh my God, I have a stadium of people who love me. And then it's 20, 40, 100. And so that just compounds the issue upon itself.
- [42:33]
A
One of, we're going to get to kind of the logistics of how it operated. But I do think it's very interesting that you're describing it as cult like. But one of the things I've spoken about is that the political right knows what it's doing in terms of getting people young and also organizing these events that make people feel like they're part of something. Like, we could debate whether this is even a good thing in general, but there seems to be a huge asymmetry where, like, the left doesn't really have this stuff. And I think that what you're, you're sort of the example of why in 2024 young men 18 to 29 went for Trump at a greater level than in any recent election. I mean, they do know what they're doing to a great degree.
- [43:16]
B
Yes. And especially for the young men in 2024, like, this is on the heels of, like the Andrew Tatisms of it all. And these young men are really looking for a community or validation or a sense of identity. They're like, who am I? What does it mean to be a man? You know, Matt Walsh is like, what is a woman? But they can't define what a man is. They're all very confused, confused about what it means to be a man. And so they, they find this validation in these social circles of Maga, in which I did as well. It's, and I describe it as cult like because of the entire infrastructure of it. It's if you're to leave, you're not just changing your vote or your political opinion, you're blowing up your entire life. My social circles, my friends, my income, all of, all of the above. So. And there's also a very coordinated effort to sequester these people off from information that runs counter to it. So right away, you know, we saw in 2015, 2016, fake news, don't trust the media. Charlie Kirk starts the professor watch list that you should be critical of your professors. Don't trust them either. Don't trust these institutions. Trust Truth Social and Twitter more than the New York Times. And you know, of course these, these institutions and media outlets are subject to the same human flaw or fault of bias that anyone else is, but they are much more reputable than Truth Social Post.
- [44:35]
A
Can you talk a little bit about the speculation? If you look online, you often see hurled about all sorts of different influencers and they could be anywhere on the political spectrum. They are saying what they're saying because it's lucrative. They're getting paid for saying certain things. Is it really that simple? Like, is there money available just for saying stuff? Or is it really, hey, you're going to be a content creator for a particular company. So, like, you're getting paid for your work or talk a little bit about those dynamics. Is it lucrative?
- [45:09]
B
There's several things going on. So it is lucrative for some people. And there's different avenues in which they monetize this. Like people like Benny Johnson are making six figures a month on Facebook monetization alone. Obviously, there's the sponsorship deals and this. There's also the paid campaigns for influencers in which they get paid for tweets, for messaging that they never have to disclose. Because of our current FEC rules and regulations, if it's not a good or a product, they don't have to disclose it. So they don't have to disclose any of this. But it's also, it's.
- [45:37]
A
Well, let me just. Let me pause one thing because I want to make sure I understood that part. My understanding was if it's not a good or a product, they don't need to do an FTC disclosure.
- [45:46]
B
Yes.
- [45:47]
A
And if it's not, FEC would govern if it's for a candidate. But again, if there's no active candidate or good or service, I think then there's no disclosure request.
- [45:57]
B
That's a correct clarification.
- [45:58]
A
Okay.
- [45:59]
B
I always mix up the letters. All the letters. It never makes you feel more dyslexic, so. And they don't have to disclose this. And there's also. It's lucrative for some. Right. But for most, you're just getting the bare minimum. Minimum. You're really not making bank off of this. But simultaneously, they have very bad Google search results. Now, being a MAGA influencer, they're going to have a hard time getting a job when they're posting racist stuff online all day or posting. So then it compounds on itself where, okay, maybe it's not that lucrative, but what other option do I have? Because now I've. I've kind of put myself in this bubble. So when I talk about it being the infrastructure of the cult, they're very financially dependent. Even if it's not lucrative. Again, for many it is. They're getting paid thousands of dollars for tweets and posts and this and that. But for the majority of these people, it's not that lucrative. But they don't have any other options and they are financially dependent because of the structure of MAGA on maga. So again, leaving is not just changing an opinion, it's blowing up your entire life.
- [47:03]
A
One of the big aspects that's kind of intertwined with all this is the way that this content is pushed out on the social media platforms, which kind of takes us to X. And in the midst of all, all of this influencing, you had this brief relationship with Elon Musk. Is this all related in the sense of he was pulled into Trump's universe for a while, you were doing the MAGA thing. I mean, how do these things even come together?
- [47:29]
B
So the Twitter algorithm, the X algorithm is incredibly concerning because it undoubtedly is pushed towards really extremist right wing content right now. But I think this fixation on Elon, because of his own really right wing slop ideas, ignores the other issues. Who are actors in this, like Mark Zuckerberg, who are bankrolling this? These individuals, these right wing figures are making so much money on Facebook, they're making so much money on YouTube. And so they're, they're being bankrolled by most of these big tech platforms. And then X is more concerning. Twitter is more concerning in terms of like the behavioral inference for our elections and what's happening there and the propaganda aspect of it in terms of the financial aspect. The other big tech companies are certainly accountable there too.
- [48:22]
A
So when you were at the peak, I guess we would call it, of your MAGA influencing, that's when you came into contact directly with Elon Musk while you were also putting content out on X.
- [48:35]
B
Yes, yes, I was at, I was working for Seth Dillon at the Babylon V at the time.
- [48:40]
A
And the eventual falling out with Musk, did that hurt your reach as a maga influencer? And if I'm getting the timing of this slightly wrong, then you tell me. But did that coincide also with you starting to have a diminished reach?
- [48:55]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [48:57]
A
It.
- [48:57]
B
And I knew it would when, when I made choices that I did in terms of coming out publicly regarding certain matters that I can only discuss in a very limited context. But it's. I knew that was going to happen. I was very aware that there would be repercussions for me speaking out and being public about certain matters. And my reach was diminished significantly. But then that happened again because now I'm suing XAI because Grok had undressed me, including photos of me as a child. And once I did that, I then lost my blue check. I was demonetized. So this is just like a long standing issue that's been happening. But yeah, certainly it was. That reach was diminished, but it wasn't just me. I watched this occur behind the scenes to many detractors of the owner of that platform in which once there was a scuffle or something that he disagreed with, he would direct the engineers to checkmark them or debuce them, what have you.
- [49:57]
A
I'm getting. We're going to move on from this, but I'm getting the sense from how you're hesitant to even say the name Elon Musk. Is there an agreement in place that limits your ability to talk with me fully about that aspect of this?
- [50:07]
B
I can't. I'm just not at liberty to discuss certain things because as you know, there's, there's a child involved, so I cannot discuss certain matters.
- [50:15]
A
I got it.
- [50:16]
B
As much as I would like to
- [50:17]
A
fair fair when it comes to, to pick one issue, for a while you were like a big anti trans activist and as I understand this, you've now reversed your views on that and even expressed some regrets about that. Did you. How did you come to focus in on that issue? Was there was. I don't want to call it pressure necessarily, but like, were you encouraged? Hey, here's an emotionally salient issue you could be posting and talking about.
- [50:43]
B
I think that's part of it. You see the engagement that it's getting, but also the way in which it is presented to you is very much presented like propaganda. You see these extreme cases about an issue that you are not educated on, particularly involving trans youth. And so you see these really extreme examples and they will post the most heinous content online and make that representative of an entire community. So you really believe that this is the case and then your perception, you're looking for this confirmation bias in everything that you see. And I was coming from a deep place of ignorance and thinking that this was the most important issue. It's framed as, you know, we're protecting women and children. And of course this is the only time that the right wing and MAGA will ever say that they care about women and children. And so you really get caught up in that. But I have great remorse for my role in that and the harm that I've caused. And I'm hoping that at least humbling myself to take accountability and try to right those wrongs and make amends in my local community will help others who potentially feel the same way that I did at certain times while I was in maga.
- [51:52]
A
Do you have insight when it comes to whether it's the trans issue or any issue, how much of the apparent audience and engagement of some of these creators and is what we might call organic and how much of it is artificial in the sense that there are players paying to boost this content? If the question makes sense, it's both.
- [52:12]
B
Yes, I think it's both. There's also discussions I still have the text messages with various MAGA creators in which we're discussing trans content. And the conversation is like, oh, that will fly. Oh, that will do. Well, that will do numbers. And so it's very much dehumanized and viewed in the context of content and numbers. And there are not only individual but organizations that will fund content or messaging campaigns regarding the trans issue. Regarding. And they've made it an issue. I say trans issue, but it's not an issue. The. The trans panic. I will say, and this is very prolific throughout maga.
- [52:51]
A
Last thing I want to ask you about, we saw after the White House Correspondents dinner shooting that immediately everybody's tweeting about this proves we need the ballroom. And to some people, that was evidence that the shooting was staged. I don't happen to believe that. I believe that this was an opportunism that took place and that there is coordination as to the messaging. You were part of witnessing that coordination. Right. Can you tell us about that?
- [53:20]
B
They have these group chats and these group chats. Let me be clear. There's. There's group chats with just very big MAGA influencers. There's group chats with members of the administration, people like James Blair, members of the Trump family that are in these group chats in which they coordinate their messaging and responses to these things. The Trump campaign would do calls with influencers unpaid, in which they would just direct them on the messaging. Others are paid. And there's also the social validation aspect of, oh, I'm now added to this group chat with Eric Trump or this member from the administration, and they want me to tweet this. And so there's that social validation aspect as well. And you'll get a retweet from them. But in regards to the ballroom, I saw all of that discourse as well, and people saying that it's staged. But there's really only two options. There's either they're so stupid that they all saw this objectively and came up with this in a vacuum, that they saw this horrific situation and said, trump needs a ballroom, or it's coordinated. So there's. In either one, they're either stupid or coordinated, or both.
- [54:25]
A
I lean towards both. That's my. That's my instinct. All right, Ashley St. Clair, really appreciate your time. Your insights will link to Ashley's various, various profiles.
- [54:38]
B
Do not. Do not link to my profile.
- [54:40]
A
Do not link to them.
- [54:41]
B
Do not link to my profiles. I'm suggesting the current books that I'm recommending are evil geniuses. And dark Money. I prefer to both. Great books, fantastic book. So I want to promote reading books cover to cover and thoughts in their entirety. If people find me, they find me. But thank you so much, David.
- [54:59]
A
Well, I recommend reading book cover to cover as well. We're united on that. All right. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
- [55:04]
B
Thanks David.
- [55:06]
A
The David Pakman show is an audience supported program and the best, most direct way to support the show is by becoming a member. @join pacman.com you'll get the daily bonus show, the daily commercial free show, and plenty of other great membership perks. Get the full experience by signing up@join pacman.com Donald Trump is supposedly going for his third dental visit this year and we still do not know why. Now, I am not conspiratorial by nature, almost to a fault. I get emails from people going, david, you need to be more conspiratorial. You're too believing of the official stories. But even though I'm not conspiratorial by nature, I understand why people are more and more suspicious about Donald Trump's health, because something just doesn't make any sense here. I don't think every bruise means Trump secretly had surgery. I don't necessarily think ankles the size of tree trunks mean that Donald Trump has days left to live. I don't think every weird clip means, oh, it's a body double, it's not the real Biden or not the real Trump. But I completely understand why people are becoming more suspicious about Donald Trump's health, because the story is getting stranger and stranger and the explanations from the White House make increasingly less sense. Now, you might recall that Donald Trump already had a dental visit in January, and then he had another one earlier this month in Palm Beach. And we wondered, why is he going to his dentist in Palm beach on a Saturday when there's a full dental unit at the White House? We didn't get an answer to that. Now Donald Trump is apparently going back again for another dental and medical evaluation at Walter Reed. We'll talk about the medical part in a moment. Let's talk now about the dental aspect. The really weird part about this is Trump's already had two dental visits in the first five months of the year and the White House has a dental suite. Why does Trump keep going off site for dental visits? We don't know. Now there might be a perfectly normal explanation. Maybe it's implants or crowns or extensive dental work or something cosmetic that is better handled in a different facility or by a Different dentist. Why that would be, I don't know. As president, I think he has access to the best medical care that there is. But maybe there is an explanation there. We're just not getting it. But when you consider the fact that we're not getting the explanation, three dental visits by, by May, by before the end of May of the same year, and what we're seeing publicly, you start to understand why the speculation is growing. This gets now into the medical the swollen ankles, the bruised multiple hands that they're trying to cover up with makeup, the dragging gate where Trump drags his right leg and then swings it around. The constant cognitive testing that Trump keeps bragging about for some reason, even though we aren't really getting a good explanation as to why he is so often being tested cognitively. And maybe the weirdest part of all of it, that Trump talks about the cognitive tests, like their IQ tests, but they're really tests made to screen for significant cognitive decline, dementia, brain injuries. And he goes, I aced it. I aced this thing. And he announces it almost every single week. So people reasonably start going, why are you taking these tests over and over again? Why are you going to three dental visits in the first five months of the year? You already had your yearly physical twice within about six months. Why are you going back to Walter Reed at all? But we'll get to that. Recall that at one point Trump supposedly got an mri. He didn't know what body part it was for. We later found out after two months of them saying he got an mri. But we're not really going to be clear about why. It turns out it wasn't an mri, it was a CT scan. But everybody's been talking to us about an MRI for months. None of this is reassuring. And this is why Republicans have really created a huge problem for themselves. They turned Biden's health into around the clock obsession for years. Years. A stumble, a verbal mistake, waving to someone off to the side who was off camera and going, biden waved to nobody over there somewhere. He would cough, he would have a facial expression that they thought was weird. And it was all proof of total collapse. They trained millions of people out there on social media to look at and scrutinize frame by frame Joe Biden videos like they are the Zapruder film. And now all of a sudden, they don't want that with Trump. They don't want to tell us what's going on. They hate it. They go, everybody just calm down. Stop asking any questions. Three annual physicals in eight months. Or whatever. Three dental visits in five months. Just stop speculating. It's irresponsible. They told us you've got to speculate because the White House isn't always honest about the President's health. That's what they told us. So I am not here to tell you Trump has some secret catastrophic condition. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. We've had medical experts on the show who think the answer is yes, he does, and some who say, I'm not really sure. But we know they're not being transparent and most people online aren't getting the information that would allow them to really have a sense of what's going on. Three dental visits in a few months for a nearly 80 year old president. Repeated medical testing, visible physical symptoms, visible, visible decline increased, increasingly strained locomotion, bipedal locomotion as we might call it. It's not good. And that's the reason that they are getting the questions. And I actually want to suggest that the bigger issue politically may not be Trump's health. It's the transparency. Every vague statement creates more speculation. And when we, and that's the theme when you ask yourself, how did Trump gain more than $2 billion of personal net worth since being sworn in a second time? We don't have the answer. And it leads to speculation, although we have some of the answers. It's some of his scams and harebrained schemes. But there's no transparency as to Donald Trump's business situations right now. And it's the same thing for the health. The evasive answers, the suspicion. So even without being conspiratorial by nature, the people that are out there going, Trump is in perfect health. This is the healthiest president ever. 79 year old Trump is healthier than 40 something year old Obama was when he took office. When Trump can't even walk a golf course and Obama was playing basketball and jogging and doing all sorts of other stuff. Come on guys, we're not falling for it. And so this is the dental side of it, but there's another side to this as well. Donald Trump is going to Walter Reed Hospital again. He's going later this month, just days away at this point, couple of weeks. The White House says it's another annual physical and the pattern is so weird that of course people are going to ask questions now. We already talked about Trump's upcoming third dental visit of the year. He said he got an mri, wouldn't tell us where on his body, wouldn't tell us what they were looking for. And after months of that, it turns out it was a CT scan looking for cardiovascular issues. And after months of people noticing bruising and discoloration and makeup on his hands during public appearances and the swollen ankles and the slurred speech, all of it. Now Trump is going back for another full workup at Walter Reed Medical Center. The unfortunate reality about all of this is that this I really want. The medical part is speculative. I want to focus on the political part. We have a situation in this country where every principle that the right claims to abide by, they don't really care about when it becomes inconvenient. Presidential medical transparency and testing was of the utmost importance when Joe Biden was president of the United States. And then now that Joe Biden is gone and Donald Trump is president, he's the oldest president ever. He's often disoriented. He often doesn't recognize or find people around him. He doesn't know what he's saying. He goes on these long, confusing rants.
- [64:06]
E
Ah,
- [64:09]
A
ladies and gentlemen, exactly. Now, all of a sudden, the same people who were obsessed with Biden's health go. Three dental visits in five months. He's clearly fine. Another massive workup at Walter Reed, where the annual physicals are happening much, much more often than annually. He's obviously fine. No curiosity, no demand for transparency. And they want us to believe repeated hospital visits are totally routine. Confusion about what tests he's being given is completely fine. Three dental visits in five months. You're unfairly asking questions about it. That doesn't make any sense to me. Now, according to Reuters, Trump is going to be undergoing this physical on May 26th or May 28th. There's conflicting information about the exact date. He while there will be meeting with service members as well as hospital staff, and it's completely possible that this one finally is the routine annual physical. But then what were the other ones? Presidents get them older people get, the medical testing is normal, that's fine. But this is where Trump world has really created its own problem. They have turned, they built this political culture around obsessive speculation about presidential health, and then they turned it into a propaganda system when it was Joe Biden who was president. And they got everybody all worked up about it, and now we're just asking very basic questions about Donald Trump himself. Now, I think it's important to interject here that Donald Trump often doesn't know what is happening in his administration. He's asked about things going on around the world and in his administration, and he goes, I don't know I haven't been briefed. I'm not sure about that. That did not happen with Joe Biden. Joe Biden was slowing down. There was decline. I never thought that he should run for reelection. But when Biden was asked about, hey, this thing happened, service members in Lithuania or whatever, he knew what was going on. And it's such a basic, low standard that Donald Trump can't even meet. And so you combine the medical with the lack of connection to what's going on, and people are asking questions, and that's why these hospital trips are raising major, major issues. Now, another aspect of this is that Trump has tried to make himself a physical superhero at nearly 80 years old. And the people around Donald Trump have participated in trying to make that the story. No one's healthier than Trump. Healthiest president ever, could live to 120. And all different stuff. And so when you make claims that are obviously untrue, you also invite more scrutiny. Now, finally, there's a political layer. There's an important political layer here. I me speaking. I do believe we should apply the same standards consistently. And so I believe that all presidential candidates should, for example, release their full tax returns and financial records, apply it to everybody. If it's Biden and there's China money hidden or whatever, release it. And he did, and there wasn't. But if it's Trump, you should release it as well. And if there are medical records, detailed medical records, not propaganda letters from doctors, which there are about every president or candidate, then they should all release them. Biden did. And Trump doesn't. Release the reports, release the physician reports, release the radiology readings of the scans, do all of it. I just want everybody treated the same way. And I'll just come back to. Could be a totally routine physical, but at this point, who's really going to believe that? And the lesson for Republicans is, again, that they've created a monster that they have now completely lost control of. They are discovering that once you unleash this sort of thing on Biden, you don't get to control where it goes next. And it makes sense that we're getting all these questions about Trump because he looks so unwell and he sounds so unwell. We've got a phenomenal bonus show for you today. Estonia has passed a law where children must be told if they are adopted. Is this a good idea or not a good idea? We'll talk more about AOC leading a primary poll for the first time on the bonus show. And we will talk about the army cutting its training as services are short billions of dollars. All of that and more on the bonus show. Sign up@join pacman.com I would be humbled and honored if you signed up. I'll see you then. I'll be back tomorrow.