Podcast Summary: The David Pakman Show

Episode: Trump burying the Epstein files with pathetic redactions
Date: December 22, 2025
Host: David Pakman
Guest: Jocelyn Benson (Michigan Secretary of State, Democratic candidate for Governor)

Main Theme

This episode centers on the Trump administration's apparent efforts to suppress the long-awaited "Epstein files" through excessive redactions, document removals, and political manipulation. Host David Pakman analyzes the lack of promised transparency, exposes the administration's misleading strategies, and covers the resulting political fallout. The episode then pivots to the infighting at Turning Point USA's AM Fest, Trump's declining campaign events, disturbing new revelations about media suppression, and finally, includes an in-depth interview with Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Handling of the Epstein Files

Timestamps: 01:30 – 17:00

• Release and Redactions:

  • Trump’s DOJ, compelled by the Epstein Files Transparency Act, officially released the files, but with “a complete and total farce” of transparency (03:10).
    • “Page after page blacked out, documents rendered useless from redactions. And then very quietly, files started disappearing…” (03:36, Pakman)
  • The law strictly limited redactions (for victims, minors, those under investigation), but what was released far exceeded these boundaries.
  • Some documents previously available became more redacted, and certain files (notably photos including Trump and Epstein) briefly disappeared from the DOJ site.

• Political Manipulation and Narrative Laundering:

  • The White House circulated misleading imagery suggesting political opponents (e.g., Bill Clinton) were implicated, but the images were fundraiser photos involving Jackson and Ross’s actual children (04:28).
  • “On the one hand, legally mandated documents are being over-redacted... On the other hand, we have misleading and outright false material being amplified...” (05:00, Pakman)

• The Blame Game and Evasion:

  • DOJ Deputy AG Todd Blanche was pressed by NBC’s Kristen Welker on inexplicably removed photos. Blanche waffled and failed to clarify removal criteria (10:16–13:00).
    • “...photos of women are not part of the redaction criteria. If there are victims...then, but is that the case?” (11:05, Pakman)
    • Blanche: “No, that's not, that's not what I’m saying.” (12:12, Blanche)
  • Eventually, the photo returned with no solid explanation. Pakman highlights the irony: the formal “compliance” offered less information than earlier informal DOJ releases.
    • “They are being less transparent here than they were when they were not officially… under the rule of law.” (13:05, Pakman)

• Selective Transparency Regarding Trump:

  • Trump’s name is often redacted while names of others are left visible, a clear sign of selective disclosure.
    • “Selective disclosure, narrative laundering is what they are doing now.” (06:00, Pakman)
  • Pakman posits that the “full story…is probably going to have to happen through a leak” (07:24).

• Ghislaine Maxwell’s Prison Transfer:

  • Maxwell moved to a more lenient prison shortly after DOJ interviews her; Blanche claims it was for security reasons (14:17–15:35).
    • Blanche: “BoP is not only responsible for putting people in jail and making sure they stay in jail, but also for their safety.” (15:16, Blanche)
  • Pakman notes the suspicious timing and lack of real accountability: “It all stinks to high heaven.” (15:36, Pakman)

2. Turning Point USA AM Fest — MAGA Infighting

Timestamps: 17:00 – 31:41

• Chaos and Awkwardness:

  • After the assassination of Charlie Kirk, AM Fest descends into confusion, with public gaffes and outright civil war among MAGA leaders.
  • Nicki Minaj, apparently paid to appear, mistakenly refers to “the assassin JD Vance” in front of Kirk’s widow, then tries to recover (19:54–20:37).
    • Minaj: “...you have amazing role models like the assassin JD Vance, our vice president...” (19:54)

• Freudian slip:

  • Widow Erica Kirk accidentally calls her late husband’s “persistence” a “grift” before correcting herself (21:14).

• J.D. Vance’s White Identity Speech:

  • Vance asserts: “In the United States of America, you don't have to apologize for being white anymore.” (22:06)
  • Pakman mocks the nonexistent history of apologies for whiteness.

• Civil War Among the Right:

  • Ben Shapiro lambasts Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, and Nick Fuentes, emphasizing the need for evidence over conspiracy (24:40–26:30).
    • Shapiro: “When Candace Owens says, I don't know...that is retarded and we are all more retarded for having heard it.” (24:54)
    • Criticizes Tucker Carlson for platforming Nick Fuentes and Andrew Tate.
    • Tucker pushes back, defending open questioning and accusing Shapiro of “ritual denunciations” (27:15).

• Megyn Kelly & Candace Owens Fire Back:

  • Kelly claims the infighting is really about Israel divisions, not personalities (28:12).
    • “It’s about Israel. Those two are very pro ardent Israel activists...” (28:15, Kelly)
  • Owens accuses Shapiro of inflating his popularity and of petty jealousy (29:58).

• Trump Jr.’s Attempt at Unity:

  • Attempts to shift focus back to attacking the left, warning that infighting only hurts their movement. Trump Sr. does not appear at the event, calling in briefly (31:41).

3. Trump’s Rocky Mount, NC Rally and Cognitive Health

Timestamps: 31:41 – 38:55

• Dwindling Support:

  • Small, unenthusiastic crowd, lackluster Trump performance. Pakman: “He just can’t seem to draw a crowd anymore...” (33:02)

• Rambling and Decline:

  • Trump slurs words and launches into a bewildering diatribe about taking cognitive tests (34:15–36:05).
    • Trump: “You get to those last 10, 15 questions...nobody on that stand could answer probably any of them. And I got him. I aced them...” (34:40)
    • Pakman mocks the “great accomplishment” of identifying a giraffe on a test (35:39).

• Self-Awareness and the Awkward Melania Story:

  • Trump admits, “there will be a time when perhaps it won’t be 100% true with all of us, right? And when that time comes, I will let you know about it. In fact, you'll probably find out about it just by watching.” (36:45)
  • Bizarre description of Melania’s closet and undergarments after the Mar-a-Lago raid borders on the grotesque (37:36).
    • Trump: “Her undergarments … are folded, perfect wrapped. They're like so perfect. I said, that's beautiful...She opened the drawers, and it was not that way. They were a mess...” (37:36–38:55)
  • Pakman: “Absolute nightmare fuel in Rocky Mount, North Carolina.” (38:55)

4. 60 Minutes Buries Trump Deportation and Torture Story

Timestamps: 38:55 – 43:51

• Pulled Investigation:
  • 60 Minutes cancels a fully vetted report on Trump administration sending migrants to notorious El Salvador prison, allegedly due to new CBS News leadership under Bari Weiss.
  • Official explanation: "needs additional reporting." Internal sources refute this, calling it a political decision.
  • Sharon Alfonsi warns: “If government refusal to comment becomes grounds to kill a story, then the administration can veto journalism.” (40:41)
  • Weiss reportedly wanted a pro-Trump voice (Stephen Miller) included to “balance out” the report, effectively neutering its impact.
  • Pakman: “...It’s no longer journalism. It’s propaganda. It’s a kill switch.” (41:59)

5. Interview: Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson

Timestamps: 43:51 – 59:53

• Michigan as Bellwether:

  • Benson discusses Michigan as a microcosm for the national Democratic electorate.
    • “...Michigan is a microcosm for the country, and it’s been like that for a while...” (45:03, Benson)
  • Highlights affordability crisis, stagnant wages, and lack of federal support.
    • “Wages in Michigan right now, six out of 10 salaries are $60,000 or less.” (46:07, Benson)

• Reducing Costs and Bureaucracy:

  • Asserts state-level efforts can directly lower costs (housing, DMV, etc.). Points to efficiency gains under her leadership, including “eliminated wait times” at the DMV (48:01–48:58).

• Housing Affordability:

  • Major barrier: regulatory complexity and insufficient housing stock. Advocates for rapid approvals, relaxed zoning, and governmental investment in communities (50:47–52:20).

• Immigration and State Authority:

  • “You can say no,” on federal ICE/National Guard involvement if it conflicts with state values. Calls for coalitions among governors to resist federal overreach (53:04–55:34).

• Running for Governor as Secretary of State:

  • Defends practice, points to Michigan’s highly decentralized elections as safeguarding integrity. Warns against Republican-generated suspicion (57:23–59:10).
    • “...We have very secure, decentralized elections and a whole lot of transparency so that observers come in and actually observe every aspect of our elections at the local level...” (59:10, Benson)

6. Debunking Trump’s Tariff Claims

Timestamps: 60:14 – 63:51

• Tariffs Don’t Hurt Foreigners, They Hurt Americans:
  • Trump’s former economic adviser Kevin Hassett accidentally admits, “whoever paid the tariff, like actually cut the check to buy the thing would be the person who would be getting [the refund].” (62:32, Hassett)
  • Pakman: “If foreign countries really paid the tariffs, then Kevin Hassett would be able to very easily go, oh yeah, the foreign countries that paid the tariffs would get the refund. Simple. But no, Hassett goes, no, no, the refund would go to who cuts the check.” (63:43)
  • This confirms US importers—and by extension, consumers—foot the bill.

7. Congressional Threats Over Epstein Files

Timestamps: 63:51 – 70:00

• Contempt of Congress for Non-Compliance:
  • Bipartisan lawmakers (Ro Khanna - D, Thomas Massie - R) move to hold AG Pam Bondi in contempt for non-compliance with the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which mandates release of files with strict redaction limits.
  • “If a president can sign a transparency law...and then your attorney general ignores it… and there are no consequences, it means congressional oversight and the law are meaningless.” (66:35, Pakman)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the redactions:

  • “That is not transparency. It is evidence, control and mitigation.” (03:50, Pakman)

• On DOJ’s selective release:

  • “Trump’s name, someone who is not a victim...his name is redacted in places where others are not. And meanwhile, figures that Trump wants to point at are left visible.” (06:00, Pakman)

• On Ghislaine Maxwell’s transfer:

  • “It all stinks to high heaven. And at this point, to reiterate, I think the only way we get the full files is if somebody leaks them.” (15:36, Pakman)

• On Turning Point civil war:

  • “The audience is basically just being led. It seems like they will clap for just about anything at this event.” (25:11, Pakman)

• On Trump’s cognitive test brag:

  • “As energetic and spirited as Trump is there, I struggle to believe that it is a great accomplishment to identify a giraffe. This is not trivial.” (35:39, Pakman)

• On the pulled 60 Minutes report:

  • “If government refusal to comment becomes grounds to kill a story, then the administration can veto journalism.” (40:41, Alfonsi quoted by Pakman)
  • “It’s just—the story’s gone. You don’t learn about it because they got rid of it because of standards and context and needs more reporting.” (41:41, Pakman)

• On tariffs and economic truth:

  • “This is an on-air kind of confession that their central point...he’s saying it’s not really true...” (63:51, Pakman)

Important Timestamps

• Trump buries Epstein files: 01:30 – 17:00
• Turning Point infighting: 17:00 – 31:41
• Trump's failing rally & health: 31:41 – 38:55
• CBS/60 Minutes pulls deportation investigation: 38:55 – 43:51
• Interview: Jocelyn Benson: 43:51 – 59:53
• Debunking tariffs myth: 60:14 – 63:51
• Contempt of Congress over Epstein files: 63:51 – 70:00

Overall Tone

David Pakman’s approach is sharp, evidence-driven, and often laced with sarcasm and incredulity at the administration’s evasions, hypocrisy, and the state of right-wing infighting. Interviews retain a respectful but passionate tone, especially regarding state politics, economic issues, and democratic integrity.

This summary aims to capture the episode’s full breadth and key revelations, with contextual quotes and timestamps for those seeking specific segments.