The David Pakman Show

Episode Title: Ukraine Russia talks go wrong as Trump decline unavoidable
Date: December 29, 2025
Host: David Pakman
Guest: Dr. John Gartner, former Assistant Professor at Johns Hopkins University and founder of Duty to Warn

Episode Overview

In this end-of-2025 episode, David Pakman dissects the latest developments in the ongoing Ukraine-Russia conflict, focusing on a disastrous meeting between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The episode further scrutinizes the fading "anti-war" narrative around Trump amid escalating military actions in his second term, addresses mounting concerns about Trump’s cognitive and physical health, debunks prevalent vaccine misinformation propagated by Joe Rogan, and highlights a shifting dynamic in right-wing American politics post-Charlie Kirk. The show features an in-depth expert discussion with Dr. John Gartner on the evidence and implications of Trump’s cognitive decline.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump-Zelensky Meeting at Mar-a-Lago: Missteps and Decline

[03:00–17:55]

• Pre-meeting promises: Pakman reminds listeners how Trump’s campaign trail bravado shifted timelines for ending the Ukraine war ("within 24 hours of being sworn in," then "within a month," then 90 days, now indefinite).
• Trump praises Putin: Hours after Russian bombing of Ukraine, Trump calls Putin "serious about peace" ([04:30])—a stance Pakman calls "so wrong" and dangerously naive.
• Confusing moral equivalence: Trump suggests both Russia and Ukraine are engaged in comparable attacks, failing to acknowledge Russia as the aggressor.
  Quote:

  “I think Ukraine has made some very strong attacks also. … There’ve been some explosions in various parts of Russia, and it looks to me like … it possibly came from Ukraine, but I haven’t asked that question. Maybe I won’t bother. They’re fighting a war and we’ll see what happens.”
  — Donald Trump ([06:31])

• Snapping at reporters: When asked pointed questions about security agreements, Trump responds, “What a dumb question. Nobody even knows what the security agreement is going to say” ([07:49]).
• Awkward press conduct: Trump awkwardly offers food to reporters, musing if accepting it would be a bribe ([08:50–09:29]).
• Post-meeting takeaways:
  • Trump emerges without substantive progress, continues to praise Putin, and claims, “Russia wants to see Ukraine succeed,” citing supposed Russian generosity ([11:24]).
  • Pakman: “It was actually sort of difficult to watch … Trump just can’t, it seems, control himself.”
  • Trump reiterates faith in Putin’s intent:

    “I saw a very interesting President Putin today. I mean, he … wants to see it happen. He told me very strongly. I believe him.”
    — Donald Trump ([12:57])

  • When asked about American casualties in Ukraine:

    “The message is so obvious. It’s what a shame, what a shame. They died in a country, a foreign country.”
    — Donald Trump ([14:32])

  • Refuses to commit to ceasefire after speaking to Putin for “about two and a half hours… We discussed a lot of things. We weren’t talking about the weather.” ([17:00])

Pakman and Dr. Gartner emphasize Trump’s confusion, lack of empathy, and inability to distinguish aggressor from defender as signals of both political risk and cognitive deterioration.

2. The Collapse of the “Anti-War President” Narrative

[30:25–35:36]

• Pakman traces the downfall of Trump’s cultivated image as an anti-war figure, highlighting several military operations:
  • Operation Southern Spear in the Caribbean: U.S. airstrikes and a naval blockade of Venezuela (over 100 deaths)—first major U.S. kinetic action in South America in decades.
  • Nigeria Airstrikes: Trump-authorized strikes on ISIS affiliates—announced triumphantly on Truth Social without public or congressional debate.
  • Operation Rough Rider in Yemen: Largest U.S. campaign in the Middle East since Trump’s first term.
  • Strikes in Iran: Direct bombing of nuclear sites, ratcheting up regional tensions.
• Narrative shift:

  “By no serious definition is this an anti-war presidency. … Trump is not treating military force as a last resort. He is using the military almost like a messaging tool. The strike in Nigeria becomes a Christmas announcement for his base.”
  — David Pakman ([32:30])

• Pakman warns: The increasing normalization of impulsive military action and the absence of robust checks and debate pose significant dangers globally and domestically.

3. Trump’s Health: Growing Panic, Missing Transparency

[35:37–53:51]

Interview with Dr. John Gartner

• Topic: Trump’s cognitive and physical health in his second presidential term.
• Main takeaways:
  • Significant deterioration: Noted decline in language, behavior (increased impulsivity, paranoia), and motor function since first term.
  • Examples:
    • Language decline: From “articulate” in early public life to meandering, incoherent remarks now.
    • Paranoid/fantastical comments extend even to joking about “bad Santas” ([38:00–39:01]).
    • Increased impulsivity—erratic decision making, outbursts, and attacks on detractors.
    • Notable sleepiness; Trump reportedly falling asleep during important events and even at his own criminal trial ([46:12–46:18]).
  • Physical signs: Bandages, bruises, and what appears to be a lesion or indentation on his left hand. Speculation regarding regular IVs, possibly for cognitive or cardiac treatment.
  • Multiple cognitive assessments: Trump publicly boasts of “acing” the Montreal Cognitive Assessment (MOCA) but has had it administered three times—a red flag, as repeat testing often signals observed ongoing cognitive loss ([47:30–48:59]).
  • Motor impairment: Trump displays a “wide-based gait,” dragging his right leg, trouble saluting, facial droop—highly suggestive of stroke or other neurological decline ([51:22–51:59]).
  • Lack of transparency: Dr. Gartner calls for the release of raw cognitive test data and MRI results, emphasizing that sanitized reports from Trump’s White House lack credibility.
  • Notable quote:

    “We are like three standard deviations from the mean here. This is not normal behavior by any conception.”
    — Dr. John Gartner ([46:18])

4. Joe Rogan’s Vaccine Misinformation and Survivor Bias

[55:11–60:47]

• Pakman addresses a viral Joe Rogan segment that downplays the seriousness of measles and questions the value of the vaccine.
• Debunking Rogan's myth:
  • Rogan (born 1967) claims severe measles outbreaks were rare when he was growing up. Pakman shows that the measles vaccine—licensed in 1963—resulted in a 95% reduction in cases by Rogan’s childhood.
  • Rogan’s "natural immunity" narrative ignores hospitalization and death rates pre-vaccine and the role of herd immunity.
• Analysis:

  “The reason Rogan recollects that measles was not a huge deal when he was a kid is because the vaccine came out four years before he was born and it obliterated measles.”
  — David Pakman ([55:37])

• Pakman further notes the frequent confusion between chickenpox and measles in anti-vax rhetoric and reinforces the public health necessity of high vaccination rates due to measles’ high contagion.

5. Right-Wing Legacy Disintegration: The Charlie Kirk Aftermath

[62:01–end]

• Post-assassination commodification: Following Charlie Kirk's killing, the right-wing machine quickly transitioned from mourning to monetizing his memory (giant banners, branded selfie spots at America Fest).
• **Kirk’s widow, Erica Kirk, rebrands as public face and leader of Turning Point USA, abandoning the organization’s familial “biblical woman” rhetoric in favor of power politics.
• Audience radicalization:
  • Many of Kirk’s former followers have drifted toward more extreme figures like Nick Fuentes, who now openly denounce Kirk’s legacy.
  • The right’s performative mourning quickly gives way to mockery and memeification of Kirk, demonstrating, as Pakman summarizes, “the modern right has a fundamental cruelty towards its own followers.”
• Memorable synthesis:

  “To the maga machine, Charlie Kirk was not really a person. He was a tool… Once he stops being a functional asset, a lot of them just throw him into the meme heap.”
  — David Pakman ([end])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Putin and Peace:

  “I think Putin is serious about peace.”
  — Donald Trump ([04:37])

• On the new “peace plan”:

  “Is a plan to get to peace. Putin gets out of the country he’s invading. How about that? As a starting point.”
  — David Pakman ([08:09])

• On American citizen casualties:

  “The message is so obvious. It’s what a shame, what a shame. They died in a country, a foreign country.”
  — Donald Trump ([14:32])

• On Trump's cognitive decline:

  "One of the things I always say about Trump is look at Donald Trump today because that's the best Donald Trump you're ever going to see. Because if he does have dementia... Dementia is a deteriorating illness."
  — Dr. John Gartner ([36:37])

• On Trump’s “anti-war” record:

  “By no serious definition is this an anti-war presidency... He’s using the military almost like a messaging tool.”
  — David Pakman ([32:30])

• On Charlie Kirk and the right:

  “They turned Charlie Kirk into a commodity... They’re using his death to raise money, using his wife to rebrand the company, using his name to push more cancel culture and then moving on...”
  — David Pakman ([end])

Important Timestamps

• [03:00] — Breakdown of Trump-Zelensky meeting preamble & context
• [04:30/06:31] — Trump echoes pro-Putin talking points
• [07:49] — Trump lashes out at reporter
• [11:24] — Trump recounts call with Putin, claims Russian "generosity"
• [12:57] — Trump: "I believe him." (on Putin’s peace intentions)
• [14:32/14:40] — Trump's nonchalant response to American deaths in Ukraine
• [35:37] — Dr. John Gartner interview on Trump’s cognitive decline
• [41:45] — Example of Trump’s diminished empathy and impulse control
• [46:18] — Dr. Gartner: Falling asleep in court is “not normal behavior by any conception.”
• [47:30–48:59] — Repeated MOCA cognitive assessments point toward ongoing cognitive monitoring
• [51:22–51:59] — Physical symptoms: wide-based gait, facial droop, possible stroke indicators
• [55:11–55:37] — Joe Rogan’s measles rant and Pakman’s debunk
• [62:01–end] — Charlie Kirk’s fading legacy and right-wing reaction

Tone & Language

The discussion is incisive, often tinged with disbelief and sharp humor (a David Pakman hallmark), especially when highlighting Trump’s confusion, the lack of meaningful progress, and the right’s hypocrisy. Dr. Gartner brings measured clinical expertise, bluntly labeling Trump’s deterioration and the threat it poses, while Pakman delivers sardonic and data-driven analysis on political and public health topics.

Summary Takeaway

Pakman’s year-end episode delivers a scathing assessment of the Trump presidency—politically, militarily, and personally—arguing that both Trump’s capability and credibility are in rapid decline. The show highlights the danger of impulsive governance, the collapse of carefully constructed political narratives, the importance of transparency in presidential health, the lasting threat of viral misinformation, and the transactional coldness of modern American right-wing politics. Throughout, listeners are encouraged to demand accountability and truth—whether about war, health, or history.