Podcast Summary: The David Pakman Show

Episode Title: URGENT: What to know before No Kings protests
Date: October 17, 2025
Host: David Pakman
Guest: Eliza Orleans (Public Defender, Surveillance and Civil Rights Expert)

Episode Overview

This urgent episode addresses the intensifying protest climate in the United States—specifically, the upcoming "No Kings" protests—through an in-depth conversation between David Pakman and Eliza Orleans, a career public defender and expert on surveillance. With ICE’s expanded surveillance efforts, Orleans provides critical context on what’s being monitored, who is affected, and practical advice for protest attendees about how to stay safe and legally protected.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scope and Mechanisms of ICE Surveillance

[00:35 – 05:08]

• Expansive Dragnet:
  Eliza outlines how ICE's surveillance apparatus is much broader than most realize, targeting everyone—citizens and noncitizens alike.

  "They've created a big dragnet...so that they can keep eyes on every single thing that you do in your life. Essentially." – Eliza Orleans (01:18)

• Tools & Techniques:
  Includes real-time location tracking, social media surveillance, commercial databases, and aggregation of personal data (e.g., phone numbers, DMV records, water bills).
  Apps with location permissions are a major vulnerability.

• Circumvention of Warrants:
  ICE sidesteps constitutional restrictions by purchasing data from brokers, eliminating the need for probable cause or warrants.

  "...They're quite literally buying up these commercial databases...part of this massive surveillance network, even if you've done nothing wrong." – Eliza Orleans (03:59)

• Real-time Tracking:
  ICE is investing heavily in infrastructure to conduct live monitoring, particularly of high-interest individuals, employing license plate readers and surveillance centers.

2. Legal and Civil Rights Implications

[06:04 – 09:30]

• Warrantless & Unlawful:
  Orleans is unequivocal: the surveillance is a violation of the Fourth Amendment meant to prevent unwarranted search and seizure.

  "These digital searches are so much more invisible...they've found a way to circumvent these procedures that are in place to protect our constitutional rights." – Eliza Orleans (06:58)

• Potential for Abuse:
  Historically, surveillance that starts with immigrants often expands to broader groups, including journalists and dissenters.

  "When we see them normalizing this stuff and terrorizing communities, we should all be afraid because they are going to repurpose this to come after dissenters and anyone who is protesting." – Eliza Orleans (09:11)

3. How Surveillance May Be Weaponized

[09:30 – 12:45]

• Chilling Effect:
  The threat of being surveilled or prosecuted dissuades people from participating in demonstrations, reporting crimes, or seeking services.

• Overcriminalization:
  There's an increased risk of authorities interpreting or creating laws to target protest activity, such as charging unrelated crimes like “disorderly conduct” or “obstruction of governmental administration.”

  "When you don't have a crime to charge someone with, you charge them with obstruction, disorderly conduct..." – Eliza Orleans (12:24)

4. Protest Safety & Tactical Advice

[14:02 – 22:13]

• Digital Security:

  • Best practice: Leave your phone at home to avoid location tracking.
  • If bringing a phone, don’t photograph or post images of other protestors (faces included).
  • Faraday bags may help, but are not foolproof.

  "The best thing you can do is leave your phone at home. That is the number one safest thing you can do." – Eliza Orleans (03:42)

• Dealing with Provocation:

  • Avoid engagement with agitators or agent provocateurs.
  • Maintain peaceful conduct: previous No Kings protests were peaceful and saw high participation without incident.
  • Use humor and joy as resistance (e.g., costumes, positive demonstrations).

• Interacting with Law Enforcement:

  • Don’t talk to the cops. Invoke your right to remain silent.

    "Law enforcement is not there to help you. They are not your friends...You have the right to remain silent. You need to use it." – Eliza Orleans (21:31)

  • If questioned: ask if you are free to leave. If not, request a lawyer and decline to speak further.

5. Legal Questions around Federal Intervention

[17:23 – 20:45]

• Posse Comitatus Act & Federal Authority:

  • Debate around the legality of using federal agencies like ICE as domestic law enforcement—normally restricted by the Posse Comitatus Act.
  • Legal recourse for enforcing this is unclear; even if actions violate the law, the accountability mechanisms are weak, especially under the current administration.

  "Even if laws are on the books that we think protect us...we are devolving into extreme authoritarianism. And so laws don’t matter as much as they used to." – Eliza Orleans (18:19)

• Standing for Legal Action:
  Orleans notes uncertainty as to who has standing (possibly cities), highlighting the difficulties in challenging federal overreach.

6. Children at Protests and Protest Atmosphere

[23:00 – 24:18]

• Family Participation:
  Orleans leaves the decision to parents, noting both the importance of children witnessing civic action and the need for personal assessment of safety.

  "Having that [photo with your kid at a protest] I think is really, really special...for the most part, it's a...safe atmosphere for children, but I think it's an individual decision." – Eliza Orleans (23:46)

• Atmosphere:
  Despite the grim political climate, prior protests have been joyful, peaceful, and family-friendly, with costumes, music, and a sense of communal resistance.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Digital Surveillance:

  "Anything as little as...opening the weather app on your phone is tracking your location."
  – Eliza Orleans (03:45)

• On Historical Precedent:

  "First they came for the X...whenever there's a certain group that is first targeted, that's always throughout history been a stepping stone to head to other people next."
  – Eliza Orleans (08:13)

• On Remaining Peaceful:

  "Don’t engage if people are trying to agitate...Combating it with humor, the folks who are going to show up in inflatable frog costumes...it’s showing like, you can't psychologically intimidate us out of showing up."
  – Eliza Orleans (14:36)

• On the Right to Silence:

  "No one has ever talked their way out of being arrested...If they've made a decision to arrest you, then just please, please, please use your right to remain silent."
  – Eliza Orleans (21:43)

• On Hope and Resistance:

  "Anytime 3.5% of the population has engaged in sustained nonviolent resistance, they've never failed to defeat authoritarianism. So that is what I am hoping for."
  – Eliza Orleans (18:41)

Key Takeaways for Protest Attendees

1. Leave your phone at home if possible.
2. Do not post photos of others, especially faces, from the protest.
3. Remain peaceful and avoid provocations or confrontations.
4. Invoke your right to remain silent; do not converse with law enforcement beyond asking if you are free to leave.
5. Expect a joyful and community-oriented protest, but assess risks for vulnerable family members, including children.
6. The erosion of legal safeguards means practical self-protection and solidarity are crucial.