Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

Summary

The Deck: Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida) - Episode Summary

Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Deck, host audiochuck delves into the tragic and unresolved case of Carole Clement, known as the Ace of Hearts, whose brutal murder in Florida remains a cold case decades later. Through detailed discussions with investigators, family members, and examination of evidence, the episode seeks to shed light on the mysterious circumstances surrounding Carole’s death and to reignite hope for justice.

Discovery of the Crime

The episode begins with Lieutenant Robert Young recounting the morning Carole Clement was found murdered.

"It was late Sunday morning, March 8, 1992, when a woman named Wilma stopped by her 51-year-old daughter's place in Naples, Florida." [00:01]

Wilma discovered her daughter Carol’s condo door had been forced open with pamphlets shoved into the wedge. Upon entering, she found the living room in disarray and Carol lying mortally wounded with multiple stab wounds.

"Carol was found with between 13 to 15 stab wounds, blood everywhere, laying on the floor partially in the kitchen and living room." [03:21]

Initial Investigation

Detectives quickly suspected Carol’s soon-to-be ex-husband, James Clement, given their tumultuous divorce battle. However, James provided an alibi that initially seemed credible, prompting investigators to explore other avenues.

"If it's Jim, he can get people from anywhere or he can be anywhere." [13:08]

The investigation revealed that Carol was highly security-conscious, making the open sliding glass door an unusual detail that raised further suspicions about how the assailant gained entry.

Alternative Suspects and Witness Accounts

As detectives canvassed the neighborhood, multiple witnesses reported sightings of a suspicious man described as tall with dark hair behaving erratically around the time of the murder.

"They kept following him like, what is this guy doing in our driveway? Looked like he clearly didn't belong there." [07:25]

Additionally, a man named William, known for his inappropriate behavior toward women and frequenting the complex uninvited, became a person of interest, though no concrete evidence linked him to the crime.

Family Members' Statements and Suspicions

The investigation extended to Carol’s daughter, Virginia, and her husband, Carlos. Virginia provided a timeline of her evening on the night of the murder, which detectives found suspicious despite some verifiable elements.

"There was a long line like, how's there a long line at 11:30? Then they said the computer was down." [26:08]

Carlos recounted the intense scrutiny he and Virginia faced during polygraph tests, which resulted in inconclusive or deceptive readings, further complicating the investigation.

"When they tell you something over and over and over, you say yes or whatever." [35:02]

DNA Evidence and Reinvestigation

Years later, advancements in DNA technology provided new hope. By 2007, DNA profiles from Carol’s fingernail clippings offered a male profile, though it did not match any primary suspects at the time. In December 2023, Lieutenant Young revisited the case, focusing on two unidentified hairs found on Carol’s arms. Despite initial technological limitations, retesting efforts in 2021 aimed to create a more comprehensive DNA profile, which was entered into CODIS but yielded no matches.

"The killer would have likely left their own blood behind. This revived effort in Carol's case gives her younger sister Linda a renewed sense of hope." [41:21]

Recent Developments and Renewed Hope

With persistent efforts to retest evidence and explore new investigative techniques, the case remains open. Carol’s sister, Linda, expresses unwavering determination for justice.

"We're never gonna give up. We're always going to have our ear to the ground. We're gonna keep asking the question over and over until we get an answer or until we die." [44:46]

Conclusion

The episode concludes by urging anyone with information about Carol Clement’s murder to come forward, emphasizing the importance of community involvement in solving cold cases. Linda’s heartfelt reflections underscore the lasting impact of the tragedy on her family and their relentless pursuit of truth and justice.

"Nothing's going to bring Carol back or bring the joy that she would have brought to us back." [44:52]

Call to Action

Listeners are encouraged to submit anonymous tips through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers or contact the Naples police directly to aid in resolving this long-standing mystery.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Carol was found with between 13 to 15 stab wounds..." [03:21]
• "If it's Jim, he can get people from anywhere or he can be anywhere." [13:08]
• "They kept following him like, what is this guy doing in our driveway?" [07:25]
• "There was a long line like, how's there a long line at 11:30?" [26:08]
• "When they tell you something over and over and over, you say yes or whatever." [35:02]
• "We're never gonna give up. We're always going to have our ear to the ground..." [44:46]
• "Nothing's going to bring Carol back or bring the joy that she would have brought to us back." [44:52]

Final Thoughts

The Deck episode on Carole Clement masterfully intertwines investigative details with personal testimonies, painting a comprehensive picture of a case that still seeks resolution. Through meticulous analysis and heartfelt narratives, the episode not only honors Carol’s memory but also highlights the enduring quest for justice in cold cases.

Transcript

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[Lieutenant Robert Young]

At about 10:45, 10:50, Carol's mom was coming back from church and she had to drop off a dress that she wanted her daughter to bleach or do something with. And she drove to her daughter's condo and she noticed that her daughter's car was not there. So she had keys to the condo. And when she went, there were some pamphlets that had been shoved in the door, in the wedge of the door. And she made her way in. And when she went in, she saw the living room was. Looked like it was in disarray. And then she saw her daughter obviously deceased, with multiple stab wounds, blood everywhere, mortally wounded, laying on the floor partially in the kitchen part in the living room. She's laying a portion of her was just outside of the kitchen area. There were three knives missing from the butcher block. Two of those knives were laying on the kitchen counter. The third knife, the biggest one, was laying across her chest and neck. And that was ultimately proved to be the murder weapon. So there was also a pillow that was found and detectives theorized that that may have been used to muffle her from screaming in agony from all the stab wounds, which I think we believe were about between 13 to 15 stab wounds. When she was taken to the medical examiner's office, they were right in that range. Obviously there was a significant one to her neck. She had like a large T shirt on and she had underwear underneath it. And the underwear were intact. Sexual assault kit was taken. And there was no indication that this was a sexually related attack. Her living room table was turned over. So it appeared maybe she was running around the table and the assailant just flipped the table over and got to her. Her shirt pocket was torn off. Like it's almost. Maybe someone grabbed it and yanked it off.

[Britt]

From what they could tell, this didn't look like a burglary gone wrong. In fact, the only thing missing was Carol's car. So it appeared that the sole purpose of whoever was inside Carol's home was, was to come in, kill her and leave. And maybe through the sliding glass door that led out to Carol's second story balcony as it had been left wide open.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Carol is very security conscious, according to people who were interviewed who knew her. So they found that odd that her sliding glass door was open. So that leads you to speculate, did she have the sliding glass door open in the evening because it was nice out. And then the assailant could have Just leapt into the balcony and made their way in through there, or whether she knew someone and she opened the door for them willingly and let them in. There was a ladder left nearby because her building was being painted and there was a. All the painters who were working on the building were interviewed as part of the investigation. So there was a ladder that was actually taken. As evidenced by the detectives back then.

[Britt]

More than just the ladder was collected. They pretty much gathered up anything they thought could have been touched by their perpetrator, including Caril's clothing, all of the knives, the carpet, and her fingernail clippings, Thinking that maybe she fought back during the struggle. They also collected two unknown hairs found on Caril's arms. All of that would be sent off to the FDLE lab. While other investigators spoke with Caril's neighbors in the then called Holly Greens Villa condominium community, which was just walking distance from the beach.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

There's about eight to 10 buildings off the top of my head, and it's kind of in a horseshoe shape. It's an odd setup. If you drive in, it's almost like they wedged this condo in there in limited space and had to figure out how to get as many units as possible in this small area. If you drive in, you kind of have to go in reverse to get out of the condominium complex.

[Britt]

Since it was such a tight space full of mostly retirees, officers had a hunch someone in the complex may have seen or heard something and they were in luck. There were two different couples who reported seeing what's referred to in the old police reports as a prowler. Someone who was lurking around the complex the night Carol was killed.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

There was couple who went out to dinner, they said, around 7:30 at night. And they're coming into the condominium parking lot, which is more of an alleyway, and they're driving and there's a male in front of them who is tall, dark hair, and did not look back. So you've got the car and you've got this guy just walking, doesn't turn around. They said, that's weird. And they kept following him like, what is this guy doing in our driveway? Looked like he clearly didn't belong there. So then he turns and then they turn, but you can't go any further over here. That's why people have to kind of back out. And then he takes off running. Now, I will say a lot of people go behind these condos to fish, so we have to chase people out of there all the time. People just assume they can walk on people's property and just sit back there and go fishing and hang out and sort of smoke pot or do whatever the hell they do back there. But this guy runs away. So what happens later is there's a Prowler at about 10, 10:30 at night. There's a couple who see when they're looking out the window, someone who resembles that same person in the area.

[Britt]

A neighbor actually ended up calling the cops about this mystery guy, concerned that he was a peeping Tom. Officers with the Naples PD responded to that call, but by the time they were notified about the situation and then got out there, they didn't spot anyone suspicious. But the unusual activity in the area was far from over. Here is another witness report that officers got while canvassing from a man who had been renting out one of the units.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

And he said that at 4:15 or 4:30 in the morning, he was unable to sleep and he heard a strange noise. He said it sounded like two pieces of metal striking against one another. Could have been a ladder, right?

[Britt]

And then there was the most crucial observation yet regarding what had become of Carol's missing car.

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[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Out at about 7:15 in the morning, the couple down below were getting ready to start their day, having breakfast, getting their blinds opened up and because how narrow this driveway is in this condo unit, they heard Carol's car start up and they heard the engine revving. And the person in there, because you have to, the way it's situated, he was going in reverse backing out of the condominium driveway. And from the best of their recollection, they estimated it could have been a person with dark hair, possibly Hispanic, backing out of the driveway.

[Britt]

Among all the witness statements, there was a name that kept getting tossed around. William. Now, it's not clear if he fit the description of the person pulling away in the car or the, quote, prowler, but it seems like his name got thrown into the mix because he'd been known to hang around the complex uninvited, and he had a reputation of being inappropriate with women. Maybe even more worrisome, he allegedly entered the apartment of another woman at some point. Unclear if this was before or after Carol's homicide, though.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

His parents lived across the road in another condo called Lausanne, and he had come over near the pool area and made some really bizarre comments to some of the ladies. And then detectives interviewed people at Lausanne, and they said, he's a little off.

[Britt]

William was definitely interesting to investigators, but someone far closer to Carol than her neighbors, her mom, Wilma, gave the investigators an even more compelling name to look into. And that person would become their first real suspect. Carol's estranged husband, James Clement. Wilma told detectives that James had connections, suggesting that if it wasn't him who was responsible for Carol's murder, then he would have had the means to hire someone else to do it for him.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Off the top of my head, I don't remember exactly, so I'll paraphrase, but she said, if it's Jim, he can get people from anywhere or he can be anywhere. But he was immediately mentioned and items that detectives had recovered at the time. And Wilma had mentioned during interviews with them that she said, if anything did happen to me, that it was Jim Clement who was responsible.

[Britt]

Detectives learned that Carol and James, or Jim, as most people call him, they'd been separated for about three years or so, with Jim now living in Northern Virginia and Carol in their Naples condo while working in real estate. But the two were still in the process of a nasty divorce battle, one that was actually set to be finalized in about a week's time. So the question was, where was Jim now? What were his movements? What were Carol's? And how did they cross paths in her last day alive? From speaking with Caril's neighbors and loved ones, police started putting together a timeline of her last movements leading up to when she was discovered. She was seen washing her car in the complex parking lot at some point late that afternoon. Then there was a friend who spoke to her on her landline at around 7:30pm and in that call, they hadn't noted anything alarming. Now another call came into Carol's line at 9 or 9:30pm but this one Carol didn't pick up. Now, the medical examiner gave a rough estimate that her time of death might have been sometime around midnight. So the question is, was Caril incapacitated in some way as early as 9pm or was she just busy and didn't answer her phone? And if she was killed around midnight, what had the killer been doing for the somewhere around seven hours between then and when her car was moved at around 7:15 in the morning? Investigators wondered why the killer would have even bothered taking the car anyway. Did they not have their own ride? Did it have to be used as a getaway? And maybe it's the latter, based on where they ended up locating Carroll's white Ford Taurus the very next day, on Monday night.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

The car is located at the Fort Myers airport. It's a rest area. One of the attendants who checked in the rest area saw that this car had been here a while. It's got no tag on it. Looked inside, doors were locked. Nothing appeared out of place. The back seats, though, were pulled out off their slide. But I don't know if Carol did that, don't know if the suspect did that, but the car was left there and the plates were removed. Theory was, okay, someone took it there, dropped it off, because the airport is literally less than a mile away at the time.

[Britt]

And who would need to drive straight to an airport after committing a murder? Maybe someone who lived out of state. Though they hadn't been able to place Jim Clement in southwest Florida so far, investigators surmised that it was possible he had traveled there from Northern Virginia to take care of the one person he saw as standing in the way of his financial future.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Carol James Clement had recently received financials indicating how much he was going to receive in retirement, how much he had in his federal pension, or things along those lines, and how much through mediation they were going to agree on. Carol was going to receive the condo and a certain amount of money for the next. I believe it was 42 months. She was going to receive some form of alimony and then X amount of dollars, et cetera, and there was some inheritance money. So here we are maybe a week away from finally putting an end to this divorce and putting everything to bed, and they can both go their own ways and she turns up dead. So the timing was extraordinary.

[Britt]

Things didn't start looking any better for Jim once detectives made contact with him and he refused to talk, directing them to his attorney. They'd have to figure out what he'd been up to that night through their own groundwork. First they found out that he'd been temporarily staying with a couple that he'd met through work while he was finishing out a job near the D.C. all.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Detectives efforts to see if James Clement was in town were not successful. He had an alibi that he was staying with a Nelms family or renting a room from them, basement room, maybe, in Virginia. And Mr. Nelms was too ill to go to a concert on that Saturday night, and so he escorted Mrs. Nelms to a concert in Northern Virginia, and they both were interviewed separately. And that was the story detectives received. Detectives checked airline logs into Fort Myers, checked trains, things of that nature, and nothing indicated that James Clement was here in southwest Florida on the night of the homicide.

[Britt]

For what it's worth, from what investigators gathered, it doesn't seem like Jim was very close with the Nelms family. He was just renting from them, so it doesn't sound like they would have any incentive to cover for him in any way. And by the way, Jim doesn't fit the loose description of the Hispanic man seen pulling out in Carol's car the morning after her murder. So with no proof that Jim was in the state of Florida the night of the homicide, detectives needed to look into the possibility that he may have hired someone to kill his wife for him. I can only assume it was Jim's professional background that made investigators think he may have had the resources to pull something like that off. You see, he traveled extensively abroad during his time in the Navy, and he'd served as a US Diplomat in Guadalajara, Mexico. But trying to track down a mystery assailant, presumably from Mexico or who possibly had ties to Mexico, proved to be difficult. The obvious first step was to look at all the flights to and from the country from around that time, especially since the setup with Carol's car at least made it look like someone had used it to flee. Detectives even checked local cab logs to see if anyone got dropped off in the area before the crime, since clearly they needed a car to get away. But nothing and nobody specific popped out.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

You know, they checked all these logs, but who are you looking for? You know, you weren't looking for Jim Clement anymore. You were looking for no one.

[Britt]

The only thing investigators could really do to try and find out more about Jim's possible connections back in Mexico was to talk to all of his known associates there. And while no one could or would say that he had a hitman, some of them accused him of other potentially illegal Activities.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

He had a girlfriend who lived in Mexico, and they tried to talk to her, and then they tried to talk to his former employees, and they said, you're allowed to what they call pouch, and that's transfer things across the border without paying a duty tax on them. He would always come to his co workers and go, hey, take this across the border for me. Then people felt like they were being imposed upon by him, and it was getting to a point where they felt it was uncomfortable, you know, so people weren't really speaking highly of him to the detectives.

[Britt]

One of Jim's ex girlfriends also said that he had her bring a significant amount of money back to the US at one point. Now, if these allegations were all true, that would mean it was possible that he may have been hiding funds and keeping things off the books, like maybe money to pay a hitman. Speaking with Lieutenant Young today, though, there are things that don't perfectly line up with this being a murder for hire plot 1. Would an assailant really come to Carol's condo unarmed without their own weapon? I mean, I guess it'd be safe to assume that Carol would have kitchen knives in a home, but I don't know. Close to 15 stab wounds, that screams personal to me, not a hit. And if the assumption is that the killer could have used that nearby ladder to climb in Carol's already open balcony, well, that's just pure luck. And there's something specific about the scene that feels ultra personal more than just the close to 15 stab wounds. Remember that pillow? The one that detectives believe was maybe used to muffle Carol's screams. Lt. Young mentioned that it may have had a more significant meaning. Here he is reading from a note that Carol had written that investigators held onto as evidence.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Now, I feel that if I don't die a natural death, it's possible Jim would have found a convoluted solution to his own dilemma. How to control all assets by removing Carol. A final solution not unlike he judged his father to have dealt with his own mother. A pillow over her face. Supposedly, there were allegations that his father put a pillow over his wife's face.

[Britt]

We have no idea where this story about Jim's father's wife being, quote, dealt with came from. Nor does Lieutenant Young. He guessed that the whole idea about the pillow over the face had maybe just been a rumor or a threat that got passed down or something. And while I think it's significant that Carol seemed to be predicting her own demise at the hands of Jim, I don't know if we can place Too much stock in the pillow itself. But who knows? Pillow or no pillow, it seems like everything kept pointing back to Jim and the stories they were getting from his friends and relatives that were giving context to the demise of Jim and Carol's relationship. Let's just say that those were pretty telling.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Carol spoke, you know, the whole divorce caused her a lot of stress emotionally, financially, as well. James, you know, near the end of their marriage, in addition to seeing other women, she had asked him to leave before. There was no indication he was physically abusive. There was indication he's verbally abusive. There was indications he may have done inappropriate things with his daughter. That really was brought to Carol's attention, and I think that was the final straw. She had dealt with verbal abuse for a while. Jim was very domineering, and I think once this issue between the daughter and her husband surfaced, I think that caused her to say, this is it. She went to stay in the condo in Naples, Florida, and initiated divorce proceedings. And obviously those dragged on for over three years.

[Britt]

Jim and Carol's only child, Virginia, was 22 at the time of Carol's murder. She and her husband Carlos, lived there in Naples with their two kids, and they spent a lot of time with Carol. They'd even lived with her in the condo for a brief stint when they'd first moved there and were getting on their feet. So they had a front row seat to everything going on with the divorce. Naturally, investigators needed to talk to them. And when they were asked about what they were up to the night that Carol was killed, Virginia's response had detectives raising their eyebrows.

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[Lieutenant Robert Young]

The night of the homicide. Carlos doesn't get to work till midnight. Virginia said she decided to go out shopping at 11pm and Virginia says she goes to the ATM, takes some cash out, and says she wanted to go get some groceries and maybe cook something for Carlos before he got to work.

[Britt]

Here's Lieutenant Young going over Virginia's statement.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

There was a long line like, how's there a long line at 11:30? Then they said the computer was down. It'd only take five minutes. I was looking at the clock and I was going to be late. So she paid cash and got home, and it was too late to make him a meal because he has to leave at 11:45 to get to work at midnight. So that never really panned out. And the detectives at the time found her actions suspicious.

[Britt]

To detectives, the whole thing just felt off. And while they were able to verify parts of her story through an ATM and grocery store receipt, they couldn't help but wonder if maybe she'd forced those errands in order to create an alibi for the night. Outside of those stops, detectives can't account for her movements the entire evening. But she said that after the grocery store, she'd rushed home so that Carlos could make his overnight shift cleaning at a nearby country club. Now, colleagues confirmed that he was there around midnight as he was scheduled to be. He had a half hour break between 2 and 2:30am and he would have gotten off at around 6:15am which, logistically speaking, would have been enough time to get to Carol's house about 10 minutes away and move Carol's car. It also wasn't lost on detectives that Carlos fit the vague description of the male driver. One of the possible theories detectives had was that maybe Virginia had gone to her mom's house that night while Carlos was at home with the kids, sleeping before his shift. And not through the balcony using the ladder, but either with her own key, or maybe her mom had just let her in. Virginia could have initiated an attack, and she could have killed Carol. And then Carlos may have come to the rescue to help her stage the car by the airport the next morning after she told him what happened. With the whole idea being that everyone would just assume that it had to be Jim due to the impending divorce. He'd be the obvious bet. But the big question that we had was why? Why would detectives even have a reason to believe that Virginia or Carlos would want to kill Carol?

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

They knew the divorce settlement maybe was coming up because they didn't have that much money. Maybe she could take her mom's place and be the benefactor of all this divorce settlement and gain that money. So there was that angle that was looked at, they both work in blue collar jobs trying to make ends meet. So, yeah, the money that they could have gained, that's always a motive.

[Britt]

Apparently, though, that's not how it worked. From what Lieutenant Young could tell, although they would have potentially gained a nice condo and some cash, the divorce settlement was not finalized. Carol's premature death meant all tangible property would remain with Jim. But there was another possible theory as to motive. Remember, without giving too many otherwise private details away, Lt. Young said, and there is documentation that shows this, too, that Virginia had disclosed to her family and police that there had been misconduct from her father. So the theory then became, perhaps it was possible that Virginia had some sort of resentment towards her mother over that. But this was purely speculation. From what we can gather, it seems like Virginia didn't confide in her mom about what had allegedly taken place until just before Carol and Jim's separation. And when she did, it seems like Carol took it seriously. I mean, that's why she ultimately decided to leave Jim. Now, there's no sign that she had been trying to sweep this under the rug either. Lieutenant Young showed us a note where Carol was telling another loved one about the situation and expressed her support for her daughter. So there doesn't seem to be any proof that this had caused a rift between them that would have led to the brutal attack. But nonetheless, investigators still worked this angle to make sure that nothing was missed. In similar fashion to how the investigation into Jim played out, they wondered if someone else connected to Virginia or Carlos could have been involved. They looked into two male colleagues who would have been working with Carlos at the country club that night, who could have helped him. One of them went back to Mexico shortly after the murder. So I guess they wanted to check into that, make sure nothing was sketchy about the trip. But it seemed to turn out to be nothing. Honestly, a lot of it was feeling like it might be nothing because according to Carlos, he and Virginia had a good relationship with Carol. He said they didn't fight or argue. And since they were young parents, they sometimes relied on Carol for both financial help and childcare back then. Our reporter Madison was able to connect with Carlos virtually back in December. And while Carlos told Madison that he remembers his routine from around that time, that he would have been sleeping and then working the overnight shift as usual, he didn't remember anything about Virginia going to the store. Not that it didn't happen, just that it didn't ring a bell. He also couldn't say if shopping late at night like that was commonplace for her or not. It sounds like he doesn't even recall that her alibi had been an issue or something that the detectives were skeptical of back then. He said the investigators kept him in the dark about the case. What he does remember vividly is, is how devastated Virginia was by her mom's murder.

[Carlos]

I was at the beach when Virginia came over with two police officers. I think they're like detectives or something. I was at the pier in Naples. That's when they find out. And Virginia, of course, was crying, and I was like, what are you talking about? You know, And I guess we drove by the house and we stopped at Wilma's. I don't remember all the details, but I remember we went to the police station a couple times. I mean, several times. I don't remember how many times, but we were like, back and forth and, you know, police came all the time. And that was just. The first week was like everything was about that, you know, we were more like scared afraid. And we were like, thinking, okay, they're going to kill us too, or something. You know, that was our feeling as a family. And I remember I got my concealed weapon license and I bought a little.38 revolver and literally had the gun with me, you know what I'm saying? Thinking somebody's going to jump on me and kill me or my wife or my kids. That was my thoughts. That was a weird, very unique feeling.

[Britt]

Madison was able to reach Virginia via text. And while she thanked us for our interest in her mom's case, she didn't want to participate in this podcast. Madison tried calling Jim Clement for this episode, too, but as soon as she mentioned Carol, he said, nope, thank you, bye, bye. And he quickly hung up. So you can see that while police might have had their suspicions about those closest to Carol, there was nothing concrete they could work with. So the case languished until around 2001. That's when detectives took another look at the case files to see if they could make another push. Now, Jim still wasn't willing to do a sit down interview, but he did end up picking up the phone. And when he was asked if he killed Carol or knew who did, he said no. A detective actually recorded the call and ran it through a computer voice stress analyzer, and the results indicated that he was telling the truth. Though there is this one thing that still rubs Lt. Young the wrong way. Something detectives learned in the years after Carol's murder. Another former girlfriend had an interesting anecdote about how Jim tried to explain away his former wife, Carol's death. She said that Jim was very secretive and he told her that his ex wife was killed in a car crash. Now by 2003, Virginia and Carlos were divorced, but both living in Texas. So detectives went there to talk to them again and conduct polygraphs. During a pre interview, Virginia told an investigator that among other things, her father Jim was mentally and physically abusive. She said she suspected that he was the one who killed Carol. She agreed to the polygraph and the results came back as inconclusive. So they made plans for her to take a second one later. Next, Carlos came in for his pre interview and polygraph. He also said that he suspected his former father in law, Jim was the one who killed Carol because he was quote, explosive.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Sergeant Johnson, he's this polygraph guy, he's doing the pre interview. He asked Carlos if he drove Carol's vehicle from the condo right after she was murdered. His initial response was yes.

[Britt]

It seems like he quickly reneged that answer though. English is Carlos second language. So to be fair, maybe this was miscommunicated.

[Carlos]

It's like being manipulated, you know what I'm saying? When they tell you something over and over and over and over, you're like, so at one point I guess you say yes or whatever.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

So then Sergeant Johnson gives him the polygraph. He stated Carlos showed deception and was not being truthful. So they do a post interview and Carlos could not explain why he was not telling the truth. He agreed to return at 9am the following day to take another polygraph. Carlos showed up the next day to take the polygraph again. He showed he was being deceptive and not telling the truth. Carlos did not confess. Carlos stated the polygraph was not working right and detectives at the scene screwed it up. Carlos voluntarily provided an oral swab for DNA and then he was permitted to leave. So Carlos tells Virginia what happened during the interview.

[Britt]

Carlos told Madison that while he didn't even know he failed the polygraph, he does recall the overall tone of that meeting in Texas as being accusatory toward him and Virginia. He could tell that investigators had it in their heads that they were involved in some way, even though he'd originally assumed that he was just being asked there because maybe there'd been an update.

[Carlos]

In the case, maybe they had the lead or maybe something's coming up. So I was like, right now I'm trying to do whatever I can and whatever I can remember to give my side of a story, you know. But when I went there and then they create this scene of saying, oh, this is what we think happened. Virginia did this, and the times. And I was just like. And honestly, the way they present it to me, they. They brainwash you. And I think, well, I guess that that's a possibility, but that's not the truth. That's not true. I tell Virginia, if you want to go and see them, I don't know if she did or not, but I told them. I told her, you know, they show me the picture. So they say, you don't want to see those pictures. To me, I can imagine, you know, seeing pictures for the murderous scene of your mom. You know what I'm saying? I mean, to me, that was like. I mean, it doesn't matter if that was my ex or if anybody. I don't think that's. That you don't want to have that picture in your mind of your mom.

[Britt]

Spooked by Carlos's experience, Virginia opted not to come back to take the second polygraph herself. Detectives left Texas believing that both Carlos and Virginia knew more than they were saying, but they couldn't take it any further. Here's Madison again, speaking with Carlos. Was it you driving Carol's car?

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

Were you the Hispanic guy that the neighbor saw backing out the car that Sunday in 1992?

[Carlos]

No, absolutely not.

[Britt]

Carlos also said he does not believe Virginia could be involved either. Even though they eventually got divorced, he said she was never aggressive or violent. He doesn't think she'd be capable of something like that. And specifically, he doesn't think she had any reason to want to hurt her own mom. Police didn't actually have anything incriminating to hold either of them on, so they were forced to leave it alone and head back home to southwest Florida and back to square one.

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Britt]

Whether it's a creepy neighbor or a.

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[Britt]

Starting around 2004 or so, investigators started to pick things back up once again. Now with a focus on DNA. It seems like they spent a few years trying to obtain DNA from potential persons of interest in hopes of being able to use it for comparison in the future. Whether it was voluntary or through a warrant. They eventually got samples from literally everyone of relevance that we've mentioned in this episode. By 2007, lab results yielded enough DNA from Carol's fingernail clippings that they saved as evidence to be able to make a profile good enough for direct comparison, not good enough to be put into codis, but it was something that they could work with. The DNA they found was a male profile, which was interesting because evidence does point to a struggle taking place inside the condo. And Carol could have gotten this DNA under her nails by fighting off an attacker. But that's not the only possibility. It was such a small amount that it could have just as easily been transferred DNA from someone innocuous. For this reason, Detective Young doesn't believe that anyone brought up in this investigation so far can actually be ruled out for certain. But they did compare this to all their possible persons of interest anyways, including but not limited to Jim, Virginia, Carlos, and even that man William, who some of the neighbors brought up during the canvassing. They also ended up getting DNA from an ex boyfriend of Carol's, a guy named Robert, who she dated off and on for about a year. But they'd broken up, like six months or so before her death. All in all, none of those people were a match to this DNA. It wouldn't be until 2021 when Lt. Young took a crack at the case and started reviewing the evidence for himself. And that's when some more progress would be made. He thought about those two hairs that they'd found on caril hairs that they still weren't able to say for sure if they came from Carol or someone else.

[Lieutenant Robert Young]

The hair did not contain roots. One hair looked like a brown hair, like a body hair. The other hair looked like a grayish hair. And so I presented this to DNA Labs International, and they said, save that for your Hail Mary, because technology is not really there yet as far as just doing the stalk without a root, but hold onto it. So they looked at it, and they said, let's look at some other items.

[Britt]

Even though it would be used up what little DNA they had left from the fingernail clippings. They decided they were worth retesting to see if they could come up with a stronger profile, like a CODIS level profile. And finally, In December of 2023, Lt. Young got some good news. The profile was officially in. That profile has been entered into codis, but unfortunately, as of this recording, there have been no hits. And also, unfortunately, the type of processing that they do to get a CODIS sample is different than what would be needed to work a DNA sample with investigative genetic genealogy. And since the full sample was used, that second one isn't an option now. But plans to get a few more items retested are already in the works. Two things that the killer would have likely the pillow and the murder weapon. And Carol's underwear. Even though there weren't any signs of sexual assault, there was blood on her underwear that caught detectives attention. If the killer injured themselves during a violent attack, there's a chance that they may have left their own blood behind. This revived effort in Carol's case gives her younger sister Linda a renewed sense of. Of hope that all is not lost. That maybe someday, maybe even someday soon, there could be justice for Carol. Answers for her family. Linda told us about how their devastated mother had to spend the rest of her life before she passed away living in fear, always looking over her shoulder, worried that whoever had come for Carol might one day come for her. But now, perhaps the tables have turned.

[Linda]

I hope it makes them nervous, you know, I hope it makes them very nervous and upset that we might be getting close to an answer or conclusion and that they might be held accountable, because that's what hasn't happened yet.

[Britt]

Linda said that Carol was always taking care of her growing up. She was a gifted painter. She was adventurous and independent. She was always focused on what she could be doing to better her own life and the lives of those around her.

[Linda]

She had goals and dreams. So much she wanted to do. She wanted to travel more, she wanted to learn more. She wanted to take some more Spanish lessons. Actually, Carol and I, when we were growing up, always wrote out what our goals were.

[Britt]

Linda held onto a list of goals that Caril had Left behind from 1989, a catalog of the things that she would have liked her life to eventually become. Things that if she hadn't been taken so tragically from this earth, her sister Linda would have likely done with her.

[Linda]

Nothing's going to bring Carol back or bring the joy that she would have brought to us back.

[Carlos]

That.

[Linda]

That's. That's gone. We're never gonna give up. We're always going to have our ear to the ground. We're gonna keep asking the question over and over until we get an answer or until we die.

[Britt]

If you know anything about the murder of Carol clement in Naples, Florida in March of 1992, you are urged to come forward. You can remain anonymous by submitting a tip through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers Online or by calling them at 1-800-780-8477. We'll also have all the ways that you can contact the Naples police directly in the show notes and the blog post for this episode. The Deck is an Audio Chuck Production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about the Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com so what do you think Chuck? Do you approve? Make your winter even sweeter with the joyfully chill sensation of My Mochi Ice Cream. My Mochi is deliciously creamy premium ice cream wrapped in sweet soft dough. It comes in fabulous flavors like strawberry, mango, double chocolate and cookies and cream. My Mochi ice cream tastes like an indulgent treat, but it's only around 70 calories per piece and it's gluten free. Look for the purple box of My Mochi at Target or visit mymochi.com to find a store near you. Texan Diane had it all until the night neither of them wished to relive the night. Only one of them. She said, tex, what did you do?

[Ashley Flowers]

You shot me.

[Britt]

Join us as we dive deep into a world of power, money and greed and one man's secret quest to grab the million dollar fortune of his deceased wife. From Sony Music Entertainment and Waveland Road, this is deadly Fortune. Listen wherever you get your podcast.