Charles “Chuck” McGraw (10 of Spades, Indiana)

Summary

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The Deck – Charles “Chuck” McGraw (10 of Spades, Indiana)

Podcast: The Deck
Host: Ashley Flowers (audiochuck)
Episode Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the unsolved 1988 murder of Charles “Chuck” McGraw, the food services director at St. Francis Hospital in Beech Grove, Indiana. Known for his charisma and generosity—but also for mysterious sources of income—McGraw's death left investigators with a tangled web of possible motives involving gambling, workplace disputes, and potential organized crime ties. Using interviews, case archives, and rarely-heard audio clips, host Ashley Flowers and guests dissect the complicated life and suspicious death of McGraw, in hopes of stirring memories and encouraging leads from listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery of Charles McGraw’s Body ([01:49] – [04:51])

• Setting: October 7, 1988 – The second floor of the St. Francis Hospital parking garage, Beech Grove, Indiana.
• Nurse Carla Feliciano discovers McGraw slumped in his car, deceased from multiple gunshot wounds: chest, abdomen, and neck. Notably, his car is idling, and his left arm is between his legs, with blood visible.
• Police recognize McGraw immediately due to his popularity at the hospital.

2. Possible Robbery Motive ([05:05] – [07:09])

• Pocket turned out, empty money clip—police suspect robbery.
• McGraw was known never to be without cash ($2,000 withdrawn every Friday). No cash is recovered from the scene, but valuable items (Seiko watch, gold coin ring) are left behind.
• Peculiar that in a noisy garage, no gunshots or struggle were reported.

  “The garage is very noisy, but nothing was heard. No struggle heard, no gunshots reported, anything like that.” —Captain Matt Hickey [07:00]

3. Crime Scene Reconstruction & Ballistics ([07:09] – [08:20])

• Evidence points to the killer shooting McGraw while seated in the passenger seat, then exiting, shooting him again from the driver’s side, and leaving quietly.
• All bullets matched a .38 caliber revolver—a common weapon at the time.

4. Suspicion Falls on Robert Mann ([08:20] – [11:52])

• Robert Mann: Former close friend and “right-hand man,” recently unreliable at work, suspected by colleagues of drug use, and with a prior (dismissed) assault charge.
• Audio is played from Mann’s 1988 police interview:

  “They were sort of in discussions that they were at least going to bring Robert Mann in on Monday to discuss his work-related issues.” —Captain Matt Hickey [09:06]

• Mann had been lent money by McGraw; their relationship was personal and financial.

5. Robert Mann’s Police Interview ([13:12] – [16:14])

• Mann claims to have seen McGraw the morning of the murder in the garage. States he borrowed money from McGraw and did "errands" for him but is vague on specifics.

  “I did a lot of errands and whatever, you know, I might not be saying it right, but that's all I could say.” —Robert Mann [15:53]

• Mann also admits to knowing about McGraw's gambling habits and large weekly cash bets.

6. Gambling and Side Hustles: Motive for Murder? ([16:14] – [22:26])

• McGraw’s children recall lavish spending—indicative of income beyond a hospital director’s salary.

  “We stayed at the Ritz Carlton, and he would give us, I'll say, three to $500 at a time to go shopping.” —Annette McGraw [17:00]

• Investigators find sports betting cards in McGraw’s desk, bet slips, and a phone number traced to a known bookie.
• Mann admits McGraw was making and taking large bets, possibly operating as a bookie himself—handling thousands weekly.

  “You talking about thousands of dollars.” —Detective Schroyer
  “Chicken feed. That's what I'm calling.” —Robert Mann [19:41]

7. Possible Hospital Corruption & Kickbacks ([21:26] – [23:56])

• Allegations arise that McGraw took kickbacks on hospital contracts and was skimming supplies for off-book catering using hospital food. Food service costs dropped by $400,000 after his death.

  “In the year after Charles McGraw's homicide, it was noted that the food service cost for St. Francis Hospital dropped like $400,000.” —Captain Matt Hickey [23:18]

8. A New Witness Emerges: Holly Wilson ([24:14] – [27:36])

• 16-year-old Holly Wilson tells police she saw McGraw with a white male (late 20s/early 30s, sporty “Vegas casual” dress) in the car shortly before his estimated time of death.
  • This casts doubt on Mann (who is Black) as the suspect seen with McGraw.

9. Sketch, Suspects, and Investigative Dead Ends ([27:36] – [35:49])

• Police composite sketch is released; hundreds respond with tips.
• Kimberly Gann recognizes the sketch as her estranged husband, Robert Gann (not to be confused with Robert Mann), a disgraced ex-state trooper rumored to have personal issues, including possible violence and a motive related to a suspected affair between his wife and McGraw.
• Gann cooperates, offers an alibi (working at FedEx during the murder window), and is ultimately dismissed:

  “Detective Schroyer sort of got the feeling that Robert Gann was kind of a young, arrogant police officer, or ex police officer, but not a murderer.” —Captain Matt Hickey [35:26]

10. Case File Issues and Forensic Evidence ([35:49] – [39:59])

• The case file is described as disorganized—leads scattered, follow-ups unclear.
• Prints from the scene were compared with a short list but otherwise languished; none matched national databases; bullets entered in the ballistics system produced no leads.
• Notably, no known direct comparison of prints/DNA to Robert Mann or Robert Gann.
• Recent developments: McGraw’s daughters pushed for DNA testing on preserved clothing, which is being pursued decades later.

11. Family Reflections, Unsolved Status, and Call to Action ([39:59] – [41:02])

• Investigators maintain gambling as the most likely motive, though specifics are elusive due to the secretive, criminal nature of underground betting.
• Family remembers McGraw for his generosity, fun-loving nature, and community ties.

  “Everyone loved him because, yeah, he was fun, he was jovial, he was outgoing… just crazy fun stuff and someone took his life.” —Annette McGraw [40:33]

• Listeners urged to come forward with tips, even if seemingly insignificant.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Robbery Motive:
  “That man never had an empty money clip… No money was found anywhere in the car.” —Ashley Flowers [05:05]

• Robert Mann’s Relationship with Charles:
  “Would you say you were close to him?” —Detective Schroyer [15:37]
  “Very close.” —Robert Mann [15:39]

• Gambling Revelations:
  “He was making bets with thousands of dollars on a weekly basis.” —Ashley Flowers [19:43]

• Food Service Fraud:
  “In the year after Charles McGraw's homicide, it was noted that the food service cost for St. Francis Hospital dropped like $400,000.” —Captain Matt Hickey [23:18]

• Holly’s Eyewitness Description:
  “Holly said that the other man was white like Charles… about 6ft tall with dark hair and a light mustache… dress described as ‘Vegas casual.’” —Ashley Flowers [25:54]

• Family’s Fond Memories:
  “We stayed at the Ritz Carlton, and he would give us, I'll say, three to $500 at a time to go shopping… Liberace comes, like, flaunting through the lobby. It was amazing.” —Annette McGraw [17:00]

• Call to Action:
  “Even if you think it was insignificant and even if you still might feel that way today, we want you to come forward because it might be more important than you think it is. That's the way these cases get solved.” —Captain Matt Hickey [39:59]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Discovery & Crime Scene: [01:49] – [07:09]
• Suspicions Fall on Robert Mann: [08:20] – [13:12]
• Robert Mann’s Police Interview: [13:12] – [16:14]
• Gambling & Finances: [17:00] – [19:43]
• Kickbacks & Hospital Fraud: [21:26] – [23:56]
• Eyewitness Holly Wilson: [24:14] – [27:36]
• Composite Sketch and Robert Gann: [27:36] – [35:49]
• Case File & Forensics: [35:49] – [39:59]
• Family Reflections & Call to Action: [39:59] – [41:02]

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Conclusion

The episode paints a vivid, complicated picture of Charles McGraw—a man beloved by many, but entangled in illegal gambling, mysterious money, and possible corruption. While initial suspicion fell on an aggrieved employee, subsequent eyewitness evidence and investigative dead ends have kept the case open and the true motive elusive. The episode closes (with emotional recollections from McGraw’s daughters) on a plea for community information, with the hope that new forensic testing or a fresh lead may finally unlock the truth in this decades-old Indiana cold case.

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Crime Tip Line:
☎️ 317-782-4950
📧 crimetipseachgrove.do

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Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

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[Ashley Flowers]

T want evidence? It's time to earn your degree. Southern New Hampshire University has it. SNHU offers over 200 online programs so you can dig into what really drives you. No set class times means that you can do it all on your own schedule. And with low online tuition, cost doesn't have to stand in the way. When the facts line up, you follow them. Visit snhu Edu Dec to get started. That's snhu. Edu Dec. Our card this week is Charles Chuck McGraw, the 10 of spades from Indiana. Charles bold suits and charismatic personality made him a standout. He was also a man who liked money. Earning it, flashing it and spending it, and trying to untangle Charles different threads of income and what may or may not be connected to his death has kept investigators busy for decades, especially when some of that income was almost definitely under the table. I'm Ashley Flowers and this is the deck. Back in 1988, 5 o' clock was the end of the nurses shift at St. Francis Hospital in Beech Grove, Indiana. So by 5:20 on October 7th, Carla Feliciano and her co worker were walking to their cars. But something struck her as off. Right next to her car, parked on the second floor of the garage, there was a burgundy and gray Cadillac Seville with the engine idling. Carla peered through the rolled up window and inside she saw a man in a brown tweed jacket like slumped over the center console. His left arm rested between his legs and there was what looked like blood on his hand. So right away her nursing instincts kicked in. She shouted at her colleague to go get help while she opened the unlocked door and checked for signs of life. But there was nothing. Within a few minutes, Carla's co worker returned with a doctor who confirmed what Karla already knew. The man in the Cadillac was dead. Looking into the car, Carla could see that he'd been shot once on the left side of his head and neck area. When police arrived shortly after, they recognized the victim immediately. He was 53 year old Charles McGraw, the hospital's food services director.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Charles McGraw was super popular at the hospital. Some of the officers that responded that day even knew Charles McGraw from they frequented the hospital, ate there in the cafeteria, and so they knew of him as well.

[Ashley Flowers]

That's Detective Captain Matt Hickey. He's in charge of the investigation division in Beech Grove. Now he wasn't on the force when Charles was killed, but he knows the case well. Charles had worked at the hospital for more than two decades. He supervised over 100 employees. I mean, everyone knew Charles for his colorful outfits and they also knew him for his generosity. Like the time that he gave a local priest more than a dozen tickets to a Notre Dame game or when he handed out boots to kids in the neighborhood, as reported in the Indianapolis Star. But for as generous as he was, it looked like someone wanted more from him. Responders noticed that one of his pants pockets was turned inside out, which along with an empty money clip made Police wonder if Charles had been robbed. And those who knew him knew that that man never had an empty money clip. In fact, his secretary, Anna Peony, would later confirm that Charles got at least $2,000 of cash out every Friday that he kept on him. And Friday was the day he was killed. So he should still have had all of that money on him. But no money was found anywhere in the car, though that's not to say that nothing valuable was left. Still, clasped on his wrist was a Seiko watch, and clutched in his right hand was a ring that he was known to wear contained a gold coin. Now, Charles couldn't have been dead long before he was found because he'd worked that day. And his second in command at the hospital, a woman named Patricia Henson, said that she last saw him sometime between 4:30 and 5pm so detectives were hopeful that if they acted quick, they could find some promising clues or even better, witnesses. So police processed the scene and even went looking for camera footage or someone that saw or heard something. There was no video to be found, and somehow no one in the area heard a thing.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

That might be understandable. The garage is very noisy, but nothing was heard. No struggle heard, no gunshots reported anything like that.

[Ashley Flowers]

The officers in charge of collecting physical evidence from the car had better luck. Along with collecting some things that they thought belonged to Charles, they also found some latent prints that didn't. And they found a single fired bullet in the driver's seat, which was interesting because the autopsy would reveal that Charles had actually been shot three times on the right side of his body. One bullet struck his chest and another his abdomen on the left. The third bullet entered his neck just below the jawline. Because the car doors and windows were closed when Charles was found. Investigators believe that someone had been sitting in the passenger seat when the first two shots were fired. And then they theorized that the person got out, walked around the car to the driver's side, opened the door, shot Charles in the neck, and then closed the door before leaving the scene. The other two bullets ended up being found still in Charles, and it was determined that all three came from the same weapon.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

So it was a.38 caliber, most likely from a revolver, which was a common gun in 1988. It was actually, you know, the most popular gun in law enforcement back then was that.38 caliber.

[Ashley Flowers]

Investigators also had those prints from in and around Charles vehicle, which they hoped might be helpful if and when they ever had someone to compare them to. Though even that might not be the smoking gun, because everything the Lead Detective Lowell Schroyer had learned from talking to Charles second in command. Patricia made him feel like Charles was murdered by someone he knew. Someone who may have been in his car regularly. You see, Patricia knew that Charles was having issues with one of his longtime employees and friend Robert Mann. Robert had been a model employee for years. But lately something changed. Detective Hickey told our reporter Courtney Stewart that things might have been coming to a head for Robert.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

They had had some recent issues with him not showing up for work in the lead up to that day. He had missed work on several occasions and had actually phoned in saying that he would be in the next day. And then was a no call, no show the day that he said he would be there. And so in that they were sort of in discussions that they were at least going to bring Robert Mann in on Monday to discuss his work related issues.

[Ashley Flowers]

Do you know if they were planning to fire him?

[Captain Matt Hickey]

I don't know other than they were going to meet with him and there was probably at least some disciplinary action coming his way.

[Ashley Flowers]

Patricia said that meeting was for sure set on Charles end for that following Monday. But whether Robert knew about that meeting or saw it as a threat if he did remains a little unclear. Now, Patricia also told police that she feared Robert was using drugs and maybe that was the cause of his work absences. She specifically mentioned cocaine. And she also told Detective Schroyer that Charles often lent Robert money. Plus it turned out that Robert had an arrest record for assault and battery with an intent to kill from back in 1970. Now, that case was dismissed when the victim couldn't identify him. But with that in mind, Detective Schroyer brought Robert in the very next day.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Day this slow Shroyer City of Beach Road Police Department headquarters on the 8th day of October 1988 at approximately 10:55pm with me is Mr. Robert O. Man. Would you state your name please, sir?

[Robert Mann]

Yes, my name is Robert Otis man.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

All right, Mr. Man.

[Ashley Flowers]

This is the first time that this audio has been played in decades.

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[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

It when you saw him?

[Robert Mann]

He was just getting ready to come into the garage.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Into the garage.

[Ashley Flowers]

This was the same garage where Charles was later found some nine and a half hours later. Robert said that he had sat in the car with Charles and briefly talked about when he'd be back to work. Interestingly, Robert mentioned that Charles had a favorite spot in the garage.

[Robert Mann]

He parks on 2 up. Same spot all the time on what now? In the garage. Two. Well I say two up. That's the second floor.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Oh, he parks on the second floor.

[Robert Mann]

Right.

[Ashley Flowers]

He emphasized that this was Charles spot the One that he always parked in. Robert said he'd even parked the car there himself on some occasions for Charles, though he didn't elaborate on when or why he'd been driving it. Clearly this would have made Charles movements predictable, although his son Matt questioned why his dad was even parked in the garage at all, because he told the Indianapolis Star that his dad had an assigned parking spot near the kitchen. Either way, Robert said that his brief conversation with Charles that morning was the last time he saw him. But he did speak to him again that afternoon over the phone.

[Robert Mann]

I called him back probably 3:30.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

And you talked to him at 3:30, right? That's on the telephone, right?

[Robert Mann]

That's what I told I wouldn't be back to work until I, I wasn't feeling right, you know. And he just told me, well, it'd be best not me come back working on Monday morning had to be about 3:30. It's. I got a car, I got a 84 Skyhawk. It's not running right. And I was taking it out and I used the phone booth and that was about it.

[Ashley Flowers]

Detective Schroueer's interview with Robert is odd. I mean, Robert's cooperative, but also vague and evasive. Like when Detective Schroueer asks him point blank about drugs.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

I've been told that you use cocaine.

[Robert Mann]

I've been accused of cocaine, smoking marijuana.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

You know, how often?

[Ashley Flowers]

Huh?

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

How often?

[Robert Mann]

I always tell them if they want to do them, they could check me.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Out, you know, I mean, are you, what are you trying to say? Are you saying that you don't use?

[Robert Mann]

No, I'm not. I'm no drug add.

[Ashley Flowers]

Detective Schroyer also wanted to know more about Robert's relationship with Charles. How close were they really?

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

And how long have you worked with Mr. McGraw?

[Robert Mann]

20 years altogether.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Would you say you were close to him?

[Robert Mann]

Very close.

[Ashley Flowers]

Robert described himself as Charles right hand man, even outside of their work at St. Francis. But he was cagey about describing the specifics of that work.

[Robert Mann]

I did a lot of errands and whatever, you know, I might not be saying it right, but that's all I could say.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

You know, he made a lot of.

[Robert Mann]

Errands and did a lot of favors, you know.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Did he pay you for that, to do that?

[Robert Mann]

Hey, he paid me sometimes. He didn't. Hey, it didn't, you know.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Yeah.

[Ashley Flowers]

Robert also said that he borrowed money from Charles on occasion, as did many other people. He said Charles often carried a lot of cash on him, although he didn't give any specific numbers, but he Was clear that this wasn't privileged information, that lots of people knew that Charles would carry cash. And this only confirmed for Detective Schroyer something that he'd been suspecting. Charles seemed to have more disposable income than. Than one would expect from the food services director at a local hospital. Like a lot more. Charles family saw firsthand how much money he had. Even as kids, they knew the things that they did were out of the norm. One of his daughters, Annette McGraw, remembered taking an especially extravagant trip to Chicago with her brother and her father.

[Annette McGraw]

We stayed at the Ritz Carlton, and he would give us, I'll say, three to $500 at a time to go shopping. And dad would be like, hey, I'll be at the bar. I'm like, okay. At that same time, Mr. T was staying there as well as Liberace. Now, imagine what that was like. Liberace comes, like, flaunting through the lobby. It was amazing.

[Ashley Flowers]

Annette remembered that trip for another reason, too. Shopping at the Gucci store. Just her, her brother, and a lot of cash.

[Annette McGraw]

And this guard kept following us around, probably because I was like a sophomore in high school, and Matt was, you know, like 10, nine or 10. It's like, what are you doing? And finally we were like, look, we have. I just whipped out the money. I said, look, we got plenty of money. We're going to buy something in here.

[Ashley Flowers]

That is truly a 1980s spectacle. And listen, lots of people have a side hustle. But Schroer was willing to bet that Charles was, well, betting. Our reporters asked Captain Hickey about this, and he said that there were a few clues that were a dead giveaway. First, there were a number of papers found in Charles desk at work.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

It's sports betting. In his desk were a lot of sports betting cards that would show all the college and NFL games for a weekend. So it would show the teams that were playing and then the odds.

[Ashley Flowers]

Those sports betting cards, they weren't souvenirs from a Vegas trip, which Charles was known to take. This was homegrown gambling, the kind that was illegal in 1988. Each week, bookies printed sheets listing that weekend's football games. And to win, bettors had to correctly predict as many games as possible. And really, winning wasn't about luck. It was about volume. And there was something else that they'd found. In the one pocket of his pants that wasn't turned inside out when he was found, there was this slip of paper with a phone number on it. Turns out that number belonged to a man that The Indianapolis star, described as someone who was, quote, suspected to be one of Indianapolis most active bookies, end quote. So now that Robert's talking about running all these vague errands for Charles, Schroyer just flat out asks him, was he a big amber?

[Robert Mann]

I say, yes, you know, how much.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Do you think he bet?

[Robert Mann]

2,3000?

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Did he win big?

[Robert Mann]

Oh, well, I know it's been a lot of time come in and we were talking football games, you know, and like I said, he didn't tell everybody anyway because you don't do that. And he said, well, he hit five.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

You know, 10, you know, five or 10.

[Robert Mann]

You talking about thousands.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

We're talking about thousands of dollars.

[Robert Mann]

Chicken feed. That's what I'm calling.

[Ashley Flowers]

Robert was telling the detective that he knew Charles was gambling with thousands of dollars on a weekly basis. If you're wondering what that looks like, adjusted for inflation, that would mean that Charles was betting up to $8,000 a week and winning as much as 27,000. At one point, detective Schroyer threw out the number of 40,000, which was also listed in local news reports. And today that would be around $110,000. And even that is more than you would expect from someone making their own bet, even if they were on a heater. And you don't need someone to run errands for you if you are just placing bets, but you might if you are taking bets from other gamblers, something known as layoff bets. And sure enough, when they pressed Robert, he gave them an honest answer.

[Robert Mann]

I made runs for tickets and carrying money to some people. I mean, I don't know how else. How to put it.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

When you say runs for tickets, what do you mean?

[Robert Mann]

I mean, like tickets to ball games. I used to. I do all that. That only had nothing to do with the hospital.

[Ashley Flowers]

You know, just to be clear, those tickets he's talking about running weren't for ball games and seats. Robert was likely taking bets and moving cash, the lifeblood of an illegal gambling ring, which could put you in a lot of hot water if you make a misstep. But that wasn't the only illegal thing that Schroyer suspected Charles had going. You see, he had a theory that Charles was also finding ways to profit from his position at the hospital beyond just collecting his paycheck. He asked Robert Mann as much during his interview with him, trying to gauge if Charles basically gave preferential treatment to vendors that he was friends with.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Was it more than just a friendship at any time? Was it an extra special business Relationship.

[Robert Mann]

Okay, man, I think I know what you're trying to say, but.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Well, what do you think I'm trying to say? Did Mr. McGraw treat anybody differently? Any of the vendors or people that you bought supplies from? Did he treat some better than others?

[Robert Mann]

This is heavy. Okay. I feel like him and Leo Grotto, they was good friends, you know, I figured good friends as far as the hospital and good friends on the side.

[Ashley Flowers]

I know that essentially Robert was just as non committal about any hospital grift as he was about gambling.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Did you ever see any money exchange hands from anybody to Mr. McGraw?

[Robert Mann]

You talking about kickbacks? Is that what.

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

Yeah, I'm talking about kickbacks, you know.

[Robert Mann]

And now I'm gonna be honest about that. I ain't never seen none. You know, it ain't saying I ain't never speculated.

[Ashley Flowers]

Robert may not have wanted to speculate, but there were other people who were happy to. A tip from a retired police officer turned part time caterer said that Charles received up to a 15% cut from certain hospital contracts. Another tip corroborated that idea. A former hospital employee told police that there were kickbacks involving the contracts for purchasing new cafeteria equipment. And yet another tipster said that he had a friend who paid Charles $400 a month to be a food vendor for St. Francis. He said that he thought Charles had been killed as a result of reneging new contracts. Detective Schroyer told us that he believed vehicles would show up to the hospital loading dock and Charles would fill them with food for a price. Which lined up with other rumors that Captain Hickey shared.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

He was known to cater an event for, say, a doctor or an associate or a friend. And it was believed that the food and the supplies for that event came out of the hospital's inventory or stock. In the year after Charles McGraw's homicide, it was noted that the food service cost for St. Francis Hospital dropped like $400,000. So it indicated to the investigators that more likely there was a lot of food and money that were going out and it didn't quite add up.

[Ashley Flowers]

Did they ever provide any documentation or proof of that?

[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

No.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

At the time, the officers here at Beech Grove were close to the security at St. Francis. The security director at St. Francis at the time was a former chief of police for the city of Beech Grove. So those officers knew them. Now, a lot of that information might have came through security director to the detectives.

[Ashley Flowers]

Detectives were starting to see a pattern. Gambling, kickbacks, maybe even quiet favors for Charles's friends. But that hadn't brought them any closer to any new suspects. I mean, police were definitely interested in Robert Mann, but he provided an alibi for the time of the murder. So even though they felt pretty sure that he knew more about all the goings on at the hospital, they had to let him go after they were done questioning him. Which ended up being for the best because a new eyewitness would all but confirm that they had been looking at the wrong guy. On October 12, a 16 year old named Holly Wilson came forward with a story that caught police's attention. She said that the day Charles was shot, she had gone to a doctor's appointment at St. Francis. And as she was heading to the parking garage with her mom, sometime between 4:50 and 4:55, she saw Charles, whom she'd seen at the hospital earlier and actually mistook for a doctor because of the way he dressed.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Holly noted that she saw Charles on the driver's side, this other male on the passenger side with the doors open and possibly getting in the vehicle.

[Ashley Flowers]

Holly said that the other man was white like Charles. This was the point that investigators started questioning how good of a suspect Robert Mann was because he was black and clearly didn't fit the picture that Holly was painting. She said that the man who had been sitting in Charles car was in his late 20s or early 30s, about 6ft tall with dark hair and a light mustache and a very specific style of dress.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

It's casual, but yet kind of sporty looking, you know, a little bit at least dressy, but not exactly, you know, full on sport coat and tie.

[Ashley Flowers]

I believe that the dress was described as Vegas casual. Can you talk about that?

[Captain Matt Hickey]

It's my understanding like back in the day in 88, like these sort of thin leather or pleather jackets were kind of popular, I guess, and that was kind of what she described Izod and that might have been popular back then.

[Ashley Flowers]

Detectives notes added even more. A zipped up maroon nylon jacket and dark pants. The kind of look that would blend in anywhere but still read as put together, you know, Vegas casual. It's an image that stuck for investigators because it fit well with more stories that they were hearing about the world that Charles McGraw seemed to move in. A world that some maybe theorized had organized crime connection. There's one interview in Charles case file that is particularly interesting. Police spoke to the wife of a St. Francis doctor and she told officers that she knew Charles and he regularly hooked her up with discounts. She described getting major deals on things like food, drinks and booze, even jewelry by going to specific businesses. And saying that Charlie sent her. She also said that Charles had invited her to parties with mob ties. If and how this all connects to organized crime is a big question. I mean, there's just nothing concrete. Our reporter asked Captain Hickey about possible mob connections to Charles case. He said that a mob hit was certainly something that crossed his mind when he reviewed the case.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Is the mob here in Indianapolis? Were they here in 1988? Sure. I mean, they probably operated here at some level, right? But was Charles McGraw a mobster? I don't think so, but maybe an associate at some level. So that's always a possibility as well.

[Ashley Flowers]

Mob ties or not, their best bet at getting whoever it was that killed Charles was with the help of their new witness, Holly. So they asked her to help create a composite sketch. Now, today, that job would fall to a trained forensic artist. But back in 1988, things were done a little differently. Schroueer actually did it himself, using a flip book. It was part science, part guesswork. A detective literally would be like flipping through faces, building a man feature by feature, from a teenager's memory. What resulted was a slender face with short, layered hair, round eyes, and a thin mustache sitting over a thin mouth. Honestly, it could be anyone. But Schroyer released the sketch to the media, hoping that some someone would recognize this man and come forward. But that's not what happened. As a part of investigating a different lead, Shroyer just happened upon a suspect who matched that description to a T. Oh, hey.

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[Ashley Flowers]

Whoa.

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[Detective Lowell Schroyer]

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[Ashley Flowers]

Forget that.

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Aunt Liz will be jealous.

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[Ashley Flowers]

Oh, I got it.

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[Ashley Flowers]

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[Captain Matt Hickey]

It kind of upset me.

[Annette McGraw]

Oh, it did?

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Yeah, it did.

[Ashley Flowers]

Yeah. Well, how, how can I work to.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Alleviate your well, I don't want to be a suspect on something that's so, you know, something like that.

[Ashley Flowers]

Which was actually a legit concern for him because Robert Gann Had a history of some suspect behavior. He'd been a state trooper with the Indiana state police from 1980 to 1986, and then he later worked for the Hendricks county sheriff's department. But that didn't last either. According to records in the beech grove case file, Robert Gann's time in law enforcement Was marred by harassment complaints, Particularly harassment of women that he encountered while on patrol. That was at least part of the reason that he left Hendricks county. And while he was clearly still on speaking terms with his ex, Kim, Their marriage had been rocky. One police report details an incident Where Kim insinuated to an officer that Robert had done something with guns and that he had been in counseling for domestic violence. Detective Schroyer was starting to learn that he was looking at a man With a history of violence and possible access to weapons, Just like the one used to kill Charles. A.38 caliber revolver. So if to relieve you of your anxiety about being a suspect, I guess the best thing to do is eliminate you as one to do that. We probably need to talk to you.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Well, let's do it.

[Annette McGraw]

Okay.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

I hate things hanging over, you know, my head, you know?

[Ashley Flowers]

Gann and Shroyer agreed to meet for an interview, but unfortunately, that conversation wasn't documented. But we know that police conducted a lineup Using a photo array Where Holly picked Gann out as the man she saw with Charles in the car the day that he was murdered. And if ruling him out was the goal, they were moving in the wrong direction when they discovered that Gann would also have had motive to kill Charles. Rumor had it that Kim had been sleeping with Charles. Our team tried to reach out to Kim to corroborate this, but so far, we've been unsuccessful getting in touch. And Gan didn't comment on this either. We do know that Gan and Kim were estranged, Although we haven't been able to confirm the timing of that estrangement or possible affair and eventual divorce. Now, Hickey told us this, but it's not recorded anywhere in Charles case file. It's just information that Hickey says has been passed down from one investigator to the next and might have existed in documents somewhere at some point, but not now. It is documented, though, that Kim quit her job at Charles salon shortly after he was killed. Now, our reporters reached out to Gann, and he told us that he had talked to detective Schroyer and provided him with an alibi during the window that Charles was shot. He said he was working his shift As a ramp agent at the FedEx's Indianapolis hub and listen, when our team spoke to him, he was initially responsive and told us that he had been totally shocked when he found himself a part of this investigation. And maybe the alibi he gave was enough and verifiable because at that point, it seems like Detective Schroueer did not think there was more to this avenue of investigation, Though it's not the alibi that he gives as the reason for calling it quits on Gann.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

But Detective Schroyer sort of got the feeling that Robert Gann was kind of a young, arrogant police officer, or ex police officer, but not a murderer. He did conduct some surveillance on Robert Gannon, Noted that he didn't dress like Holly Wilson had described the person dressing. And that was sort of his reasoning for eliminating him at the time.

[Ashley Flowers]

So Gann was ruled out because he didn't look the part. The salon itself wasn't explored anymore either. Even though Charles relationship with his business partner was good, it didn't mean that there wasn't a there there. The idea that the salon could have been some kind of front for organized crime was actually discussed explicitly in an old article published in the Indianapolis star back in 2012. In it, one of Charles daughters says that the business was a front dealing in fencing and stolen property. That said she was only six when her father died. So presumably she learned this through the rumor mill because her brother Matt disagreed with her. In that very same article, he said that he'd never heard anything about stolen property. Captain Hickey told our reporters that hundreds of tips came in when the composite sketch was released. How many of those tips detectives were able to follow up on is unknown. Because today, the case file is a mess. Scattered notes on index cards and yellow legal pads scribbled in handwriting that's hard to read and harder to follow. Leads will start and stop with no clear pattern. And it's nearly impossible to tell which ones were followed up on. I mean, the case file actually includes information that Charles might have been having affairs. But here's the thing. We don't know if detectives ever followed up on those leads or what they might have found if they did. There's been decades of inactivity prior to Captain Hickey taking on this case. And when he did, he found that there wasn't much forensic evidence left that was suitable for testing. And it's even unclear what exactly was done with the little they did have. Like, for example, the fingerprints that they collected from Charles vehicle back in 88. Police records show that the Beech Grove department sent them out for direct Comparison to a short list of people and then turned them into the Layton Prince section in Marion County. But that's just where the case file stops when it comes to those. So was anyone ruled out? Ruled in? Today, detectives don't know. So you can imagine that this case has been hard to solve. In 2005, Hickey gathered every piece of evidence in the lab and met with forensic experts to see what evidence could be resubmitted for fingerprint analysis. And we know that they sent the original prints from Charles car out for analysis. Again, that testing revealed a few prints from the car seat did belong to Charles himself. But there were some that came back that are still not identified. Even after being run through long local, state and national databases, they never got any matches. These prints are still in evidence, as are the bullets that they had in this case, which at some point got entered into the ballistics system, but that too didn't lead them anywhere. Now, one of the most frustrating moments we had when we reported on this is that no one seems to have gone back to do any direct comparisons to Robert Mann or Robert Gan. But there might be something better than Prince. None of the evidence that was gathered was tested for DNA in 2005. During the interview, Captain Hickey told our reporters that much of the evidence has just sat around and probably deteriorated, and therefore there were no plans to have it tested. However, after our interview a few weeks ago, Charles's daughters, Patty and Annette met with Captain Hickey and they urged him to reconsider. Patty told our reporters that much of the evidence was lost, but later it was found at the old police station. The plan now is to send the clothing that Charles was wearing to the lab to be tested for DNA. Now, there is always the possibility that testing won't reveal anything, which means possible motives are still an important element of this case. Captain Hickey agrees with his predecessors. Gambling seems like the most logical conclusion here. What that means in practice and who that points to though, is still murky. What he does know is that because gambling was such an underworld enterprise in 1988, identifying the players is going to be difficult. And that is where the DEC audience can help.

[Captain Matt Hickey]

Even if you think it was insignificant and even if you still might feel that way today, we want you to come forward because it might be more important than you think it is. That's the way these cases get solved.

[Ashley Flowers]

Patty and Annette say that anything is possible, but they feel that unless Charles had become a bookie himself and stepped on another bookie's toes, they don't know why anyone would have had him killed. While they're hopeful that his case will be solved, they actually choose to reflect on the many wonderful memories that their father left them with.

[Annette McGraw]

Everyone loved him because, yeah, he was fun, he was jovial, he was outgoing. Not obnoxious, but outgoing. For birthday celebrations, he might get a tub. There was an ice cream place that did like 20 scoops of ice cream and a big thing, Ben and Jerry's. We ate the whole thing one time. We would all eat out of the same contain just crazy fun stuff and someone took his life.

[Ashley Flowers]

If you know anything about the murder of Charles McGraw investigators want to hear from you. Please call the Beech Grove Crime Tips line to leave an Anonymous Tip at 317-782-4950 or you can submit a tip by email at crimetipseachgrove. Do. The Deck is an audio Chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about the deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com I think Chuck would approve.

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[Ashley Flowers]

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[Robert Mann]

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