Roger "Unkle Rog" McCall (2 of Spades, New York)

Summary

Episode Summary: Roger "Unkle Rog" McCall (2 of Spades, New York)

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Deck
• Host/Author: audiochuck
• Episode: Roger "Unkle Rog" McCall (2 of Spades, New York)
• Release Date: July 9, 2025

---

Introduction

In this poignant episode of The Deck, host audiochuck unpacks the heartbreaking case of Roger "Unkle Rog" McCall, a beloved radio personality and property co-owner from Rochester, New York. Through detailed narratives and interviews with key individuals, the episode seeks to shed light on the mysteries surrounding Roger's unsolved murder on December 12, 2003, and urges listeners to come forward with any information that might finally bring justice to Roger and his family.

The Night of the Incident

On the evening of December 12, 2003, Roger McCall was tragically gunned down in Rochester. The episode begins by setting the scene with a chilling 911 call made by Roger's son, Jason McCall. The call captures the frantic atmosphere as Jason tries to assist his father amidst gunfire and confusion.

Notable Quote:

• "I think it might be my father. I think he said Roger and it sounded like my father." — Jason McCall [05:07]

Initial Investigation Challenges

Upon arrival, first responders found Roger lying in his driveway, struggling to stay conscious. Nearby, investigators discovered a PlayStation game and Roger's own .45 caliber gun, suggesting he was prepared for protection. However, no immediate suspect or clear motive emerged, complicating the investigation.

Notable Quote:

• "He was actually, at some point during the confrontation, able to draw the weapon. He got the weapon out, but never got a shot off." — Investigator Gary Goletta [07:02]

Witness Accounts and Suspect Identification

A key witness, referred to as Kate, provided crucial information. She witnessed Roger collecting rent at her residence and later observed two men fleeing the scene in a white car, displaying suspicious behavior. Kate identified one of the men as Ori and the other as Sam, both known in the neighborhood for petty crimes but not directly linked to homicide.

Notable Quote:

• "She theorized someone that knew his routine might have attacked the victim." — Investigator Gary Goletta [11:26]

Additionally, Michael, Kate's husband, emerged as a person of interest due to his criminal background and the vague descriptions fitting Roger's shooter, but lacked a clear motive.

Notable Quote:

• "He was still on our radar just because of his criminal background." — Investigator Gary Goletta [20:19]

Investigative Hurdles

The investigation faced significant obstacles, including a heavy snowfall that erased potential footprints and the loss of ballistic evidence. Efforts with a K9 unit yielded minimal results, and initial suspects did not match all the details provided by Roger and witnesses.

Notable Quote:

• "In between the time that the incident happened and the time that first responders arrived, we experienced what's known as a burst of lake effect snow..." — Investigator Gary Goletta [08:47]

Breakthrough After Five Years

Five years post-murder, an informant named Dan stepped forward with new allegations implicating Michael in Roger's death. Dan claimed to have witnessed Michael firing the gun, aligning with previous evidence and offering a motive rooted in personal animosity. Despite Dan’s prior credibility issues, certain details in his statement provided new leads.

Notable Quote:

• "I realize I should have come forward a long time ago, but I was scared." — Dan [23:28]

Legal and Procedural Challenges

Despite Dan's testimony, law enforcement faced difficulties in building a prosecutable case due to the time elapsed and inconsistencies in witness statements. Michael maintained his innocence, and without concrete evidence, the case remained unresolved.

Notable Quote:

• "You got nothing, and he's not going to willfully talk to you." — Investigator Gary Goletta [27:03]

Community and Personal Impact

Roger McCall was not just a public figure but a pillar in his community, supporting local artists and assisting tenants. His untimely death left a void, and his family's pain underscores the ongoing need for closure and justice.

Notable Quote:

• "In a 2003 article in the Democrat Chronicle, Denise described Roger as, 'the kindest, sweetest, most generous, loving man I have ever known.'" — Ashley Flowers [28:55]

Call to Action

The Deck urges anyone with information about Roger McCall's murder to come forward, emphasizing the ongoing impact of the case on his family and community. Listeners are encouraged to contact Rochester Crime Stoppers anonymously to aid in the pursuit of justice.

Notable Quote:

• "Whether it was a robbery or something, something more personal than that. If you can provide any insight... please reach out." — Ashley Flowers [30:23]

Conclusion

This episode of The Deck masterfully intertwines personal stories with investigative details, highlighting the complexities of cold cases and the enduring quest for justice. Roger McCall's story serves as a poignant reminder of the human element behind every unsolved crime and the vital role of community involvement in solving such mysteries.

---

Note: For more information or to contribute to the case, visit Rochester Crime Stoppers or contact them at 585-423-9300.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

Hi everyone. I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of Crime Junkie, the Go to Crime podcast for the biggest cases and the stories you won't hear anywhere else. So whether on your commute, studying or while you work, let us keep you company. With new episodes every Monday, it is truly a Crime Junkie's dream. So join me, my best friend Britt and our entire Crime Junkie community right now by catching up on hundreds of episodes and by listening to a new case every Monday on Crime Junkie, available wherever you listen to podcasts, you never know what's ahead.

[Credit One Bank]

Today, you're dancing to a new record in your living room.

[Ashley Flowers]

Oh wow, I love this song.

[Credit One Bank]

And then before you know it, you're flying to see the band live at Credit One Bank. We're here for what's ahead. That's why you can get points on eligible travel purchases, including flights. Credit one bank for what's ahead terms apply. Visit credionbanktravel.com for more details.

[Ashley Flowers]

Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating. And so as a black woman in recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay. When we learn the power of hope recovery is possible, find out [e-mail] brought to you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the Ad.

[Gary Goletta]

Council Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download Today.

[Ashley Flowers]

Our card this week is Roger McCall, the two of spades from New York. If you lived in the Rochester area back in the day, you might recognize the smooth voice of Uncle Rog.

[Gary Goletta]

The 90s Rock youk need the classic Rock youk Love 96 WCMF here at the All Night Rock and Ol Camp.

[Ashley Flowers]

As a late night radio host and DJ at WCMF for almost 30 years, perhaps he kept you company past midnight, maybe helped you stay awake during a third shift.

[Gary Goletta]

Also, we heard from Rush, told the Wetz Rocket not to be confused with the toadies who are coming up in.

[Ashley Flowers]

Just by 52, Roger had already survived a terminal cancer diagnosis only to be gunned down on December 12, 2003, in what at first seemed to be a random act of violence. But a potential witness in the case has raised the possibility that his murder may have been more personal than previously assumed. I'm Ashley Flowers and this is the deck.

[Jason McCall]

Sam.

[911 Operator]

911 Stoner.

[Jason McCall]

Hey, we're at 39 Madison street, off of West Main Street. Someone's just been shot.

[911 Operator]

Where?

[Jason McCall]

Right here in front of the house.

[911 Operator]

Let me get some information from you. Did you see the shooter?

[Jason McCall]

No.

[911 Operator]

Is it a male or female? That you? What's your name?

[Jason McCall]

Jason.

[911 Operator]

Are you out there with the victim?

[Jason McCall]

No, I'm not. I'm upstairs in the apartment.

[911 Operator]

Okay. You see him out there? Is he laying? He's laying down.

[Jason McCall]

I'm afraid to look out. He just got shot. I don't know what's going on out there.

[Ashley Flowers]

Rochester local, Jason McCall phoned 911 from his apartment where he dropped to the floor after hearing gunshots fired outside. Parts of this call have been cut for time.

[Jason McCall]

I think it might be my father. I think he said Roger and it sounded like my father. We need somebody over here immediately.

[911 Operator]

It might be your father.

[Jason McCall]

It sounded like. It sounded like he said Roger. I'm not completely sure. My father's name is Roger and he's one of the owners of the building.

[911 Operator]

Okay, can you look out the window and look and see if somebody is with him? If not, if you have a portable phone, I want you to go down there and try to help me out if you can.

[Jason McCall]

I've got a portable phone. His truck is out there. I think it is my father's truck.

[911 Operator]

Okay, you think your father's been shot?

[Jason McCall]

I think so.

[911 Operator]

Did you see or hear anybody else running or what type of.

[Jason McCall]

No, I didn't.

[911 Operator]

Okay, hold on.

[Jason McCall]

Is someone on the way yet?

[911 Operator]

Yes, they are. The officers are en route and so is an ambulance in a fire department.

[Jason McCall]

All right.

[911 Operator]

Any information you could give me about the type of wounds that he has, okay. Will greatly help the people that are responding. I don't want you to put yourself in any danger, but even if you could see if there's footsteps in the snow going in a certain direction or whatnot.

[Jason McCall]

Okay, hold on. It is. I thought it.

[911 Operator]

Okay, it is your dad. Okay? How old is your father? Okay, listen. Where. Where is he shot?

[Jason McCall]

Do not move. Dad? Sir, now, is he. Dad. Don't move.

[911 Operator]

Sir, Is he. Is he breathing?

[Jason McCall]

What?

[911 Operator]

Is he breathing?

[Jason McCall]

Yes, he is. Ok. Dad, stay with me. Dad, stay with me. Dad, can you breathe? Dad, can you breathe okay? Yes, yeah, okay.

[911 Operator]

Yeah, I'm talking.

[Jason McCall]

He can breathe. Okay.

[911 Operator]

Let him know that you're on with me. Okay.

[Jason McCall]

Okay. I'm on the phone with 901 right now for only one wound. Okay. He's on the side. Where are you shot? He's in the left side. He thinks.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Jason McCall]

He thinks in the left side.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Jason McCall]

Not to move too much there.

[911 Operator]

Okay. Look at. I. I can hear that they're there.

[Jason McCall]

Okay. I don't know.

[911 Operator]

Can you ask him?

[Jason McCall]

What? What? What? Don't get up. Lay down. Lay down.

[911 Operator]

Ask your father.

[Jason McCall]

Lay down. What?

[911 Operator]

Ask your father if he knows what type of gun it was.

[Jason McCall]

You know what type of gun it was?

[911 Operator]

Dad.

[Jason McCall]

He has no clue.

[911 Operator]

Does he know the person that shot him?

[Jason McCall]

Do you know that? Do you know who shot you? No. You don't know who it was?

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Jason McCall]

He doesn't know who it was.

[911 Operator]

Okay. You're doing a great job helping your dad. Sir, it sounds like the paramedic sedan.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was bitterly cold below freezing when first responders arrived just before 6pm to find Roger lying in the driveway fading in and out of consciousness. A PlayStation game on the ground nearby led police and Jason to believe that Roger had come by to play video games with his son. But there was something else next to Roger that you wouldn't normally need for a night of hanging out. A stainless steel.45 caliber gun. Investigators quickly determined this wasn't the smoking gun miraculously left behind by the mysterious shooter, but rather Roger's own weapon that he was known to keep on him for protection. But there was no round in the chamber, so really, Roger never stood a chance in a surprise attack.

[Investigator]

He was actually, at some point during the confrontation, able to draw the weapon. He got the weapon out, but never got a shot off.

[Ashley Flowers]

That's retired Rochester police investigator Gary Goletta, who was one of the officers called out to the scene and heard about Roger's account of the attack. Because even as Roger fought for his life, he was already trying to help solve his own case.

[Investigator]

He was able to tell the first couple people there, you know, some tidbits. He's the one who suggested it was a robbery.

[Ashley Flowers]

According to a brief secondhand summary from a responding officer, Roger told them that he had been robbed. But the exact quote of what he said, or if he was able to tell them what the robber took, if anything, has been lost to time. But we know that the assailant didn't take Roger's wallet because investigator Goletta told us that was found still on him. Now, you heard on the 911 call, Roger himself said that the shooter wasn't someone he recognized. But at some point after the call, he was actually able to give a very vague description to first responders, saying that the shooter was a young black man wearing a dark hoodie. With Roger alert enough at times to reveal even those fragments of information, I imagine that hopes were high that he would pull through. I mean, at one point, Roger even told his son that he didn't feel too bad. But the single gunshot to his torso had done serious damage that doctors weren't able to fix, and he died on the operating table a short while after being taken to the hospital. That left only the crime scene to tell detectives the story of what happened and who was behind it. But the circumstances were far from ideal.

[Investigator]

In between the time that the incident happened and the time that first responders arrived, we experienced what's known as a burst of lake effect snow, which is common in this area. And when you get a squall like that, it helps cover up footprints. So the guys that found the footprints are trying to do all they can to preserve and to follow them. So you don't really get to do that up close and personal kind of crime scene search. When it's blanketed by snow, it really hampers things.

[Ashley Flowers]

While the blanket of snow stopped investigators from being able to successfully collect any impressions of those shoe prints, a K9 named Joey was deployed to try and track the scent of the shooter. Joey picked something up at first, but then lost it just a few minutes later, suggesting that the suspect could have hopped into a getaway car. They weren't having much luck with physical evidence either, though. Two 9 millimeter casings were found in the street near the driveway entrance. One of them appeared to have been run over by a fire truck before police could get to it. And neither ended up providing anything useful after later ballistics testing. Now, many of the neighbors that detectives spoke to knew Roger, or at least knew of him. He not only previously co owned a few rental properties in the area, but he was also a local radio personality.

[Investigator]

He was actually known in some exclusive, if you will, circles because he had an overnight radio show where he highlighted little known artists, or I guess they refer to them sometimes as garage bands and whatever. And some of these people got to have their artistry played and highlighted, really, in the local community, and he was known for that. And because of that, you know, he was beloved by local musicians, et cetera. So for that reason, you know, he was pretty well known in that realm. And he had been in the radio industry for quite a long time.

[Ashley Flowers]

The problem was, on this snowy night, most people they spoke with in the area claimed to be inside when Roger was shot. But plenty of people heard the gunfire, including one woman who said that she'd actually spoken to Roger just minutes before the shooting. And this is a neighbor who police have asked us to call Kate in order to protect her as a witness. Kate seemed to at least be acquainted with Roger because the house that she lived in for the last year with her husband was one of the ones that Roger used to co own. And he would still help out his old business partner every once in a while by collecting rent from tenants on Fridays. And Kate told police that is exactly why Roger had stopped by her place that night. Except she didn't have the money to pay him that week. Here is Goletta reading from the report.

[Investigator]

She went on to tell us that the victim collected rent at around the same time every week and felt his routine was well known. She theorized someone that knew his routine might have attacked the victim.

[Ashley Flowers]

Her husband, who we're going to call Michael, wasn't there that night to corroborate Kate's account. But there were other neighbors on the block who agreed that Roger was known to collect rent. Most of the time it was in cash, which bolstered Roger's own theory that this could have been a robbery gone bad. Kate told police that Roger left her house and drove to his son's house right down the road. She said that she watched him from her window as he got out of his truck and started to walk up the driveway. Here's more from the report.

[Investigator]

She said she walked away from the window and within a couple of seconds heard two gunshots. She grabbed her son and got down on the floor. She insisted she didn't see anyone out or around the victim as he walked to the driveway.

[Ashley Flowers]

Records don't explicitly say if Kate called police. From our review of the 911 calls that night, it sounded like there were at least two women who called in but didn't identify themselves. Themselves. So it's difficult to know if they were or weren't Kate. Her account to police didn't mention it, although it did mention another thing of Note, that about 10 minutes or so after the shooting, Kate saw something else. And now that she was aware of what had happened to Roger, she thought that it must be connected. Mom.

[Jason McCall]

Mom.

[Credit One Bank]

You never know what's ahead.

[Ashley Flowers]

Honey.

[911 Operator]

Please stop.

[Credit One Bank]

I'm trying to drive today. You're taking your kid for a drive. Then before you know it. They're taking you for one honey.

[Kate]

Stop.

[Jason McCall]

Mom.

[Ashley Flowers]

I got it.

[Credit One Bank]

At Credit One bank, we're here for what's ahead. That's why you can get cash back rewards on everyday purchases like gas, credit one bank for what's ahead terms apply. Visit creditonebank.com for more details.

[Kate]

We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app Today.

[Ashley Flowers]

Kate told officers she saw two men leave a nearby house, a known drug spot, right after Roger was shot. Kate said they were smiling and that she could hear them saying something along the lines of looks like someone got shot. The insinuation being that something about the way they said this felt off putting to her. Then they got into a white car and they took off before police started their rounds. Canvassing the neighborhood. And even better than seeing this, Kate said she recognized these. One was a guy who everyone called Ori. Investigator Goletta couldn't find any record of his real name. And the other guy, we do know his real name, but we're going to call him Sam because he's never been publicly named in this case. So Orey and Sam were known for holding people up and robbing them. And it sounds like this was part of the reason why Kate thought it was possible they may have been responsible for what happened to Roger. Back when officers had first arrived at the crime scene, they had noted all the license plates on the cars parked nearby, just in case any of them turned out to be significant. And they soon realized that one of them, a white Kia, had been reported as stolen. The next day, when detectives were back on Madison street, they spotted that same car. This time it was parked in the driveway of the same house that Kate said Ori and Sam were seen fleeing from in a white car just after Roger was shot. So there were just too many coincidences, and most experienced investigators I know don't believe in coincidences. So this prompted detectives to start undercover surveillance of the house. Eventually, two men came out, presumably Orey and Sam, but they weren't able to make a definitive ID on either. One of the men took off in the stolen white Kia. So officers followed closely behind, and they noted in their report that the driver seemed to be catching on so much. So supervisors eventually decided it was safest to call off what was turning into a bit of a chase. Now, that car didn't come back to the house, and eventually it was found abandoned. But besides some weed and a cell phone, There was nothing to help with their homicide investigation Inside the car, Nothing that belonged to Roger. No weapon seemingly connected to his murder. And although the car was technically stolen, they learned that oy frequently drove it. According to a note in the police report, the owner had a history of loaning it out to drug dealers, so perhaps auri had borrowed it for too long without checking in or something. And that maybe prompted the owner to officially report it as stolen. Since detectives couldn't say with certainty that either ori or Sam was involved in the car theft, they didn't have enough to make an arrest there. And they had even less connecting them to rogers case. Just people from the neighborhood saying that those two were probably involved because of their bad reputations and proximity to the crime. Now, it sounds like they both would have fit Rogers extremely loose description of a young black man. And Kate had also mentioned that Sam was wearing a dark pullover, Possibly a hoodie. And goletta doesn't think that Roger would have necessarily recognized them. So some of this stuff is fitting. But investigator Goletta couldn't remember if detectives were ever able to confront either of them about Roger's murder. And we couldn't find anything in the case file that we have. But goletta said that it's possible they didn't. The tactic being they wouldn't have wanted to blow their only shot at interrogating them without substantial evidence or facts to hold them to. So instead of focusing on the who, Investigators turned to the why, with robbery still being their strongest theory. The question now, though, is, is what they were hearing about Roger collecting rent on Fridays true? Would he have had a lot of cash on him that night? Well, this is where things get weird. When detectives spoke to Roger's close friend and business partner, the one that he previously co owned properties with, this guy told investigators something that left them with far more questions than answers. You see, several years before he was killed, Roger had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Although he'd outlived his initial prognosis and was in remission, his buddy told police that he still chose to slow down a bit when it came to work.

[Investigator]

The partner, he kind of gave us this indication that Roger stepped back from collecting the rent as of recent. So it really clouded the purpose of him being there.

[Ashley Flowers]

Why had Kate told police that Roger was in the neighborhood collecting rent if supposedly he'd stopped doing that? And to further that, from what detectives could tell, outside of Kate, Roger hadn't made any other stops to collect rent that day. And we know Kate herself had even said she hadn't been able to pay up that evening. So it doesn't seem like Roger actually would have had any major cash on him. Though the shooter wouldn't have necessarily known that. I guess it sounds like detectives didn't doubt Kate's account, but rather maybe just chalked the whole thing up to some kind of misunderstanding. After all, according to the business partner, halting the rent collection had only been a recent thing. Perhaps Roger had just stopped by Kate's to try and collect a final late payment. But they still had some follow up questions for her husband, Michael, who, remember, hadn't been home during their initial canvass when they were able to speak with him. Michael said that he hadn't been there when Roger came by or when investigators were first canvassing because he'd been out paying a utility bill at night in bad weather after business hours. I don't know if it was just this detail alone or Michael's overall energy while they were speaking with him, but to Investigator Goletta, the whole thing just felt strange. Sort of like he was trying to create an alibi for himself. Investigator Goletta said that years ago he tried to verify whether or not Michael had actually paid this bill. But today he doesn't remember how that panned out, and he couldn't find any record of what it was he found back then. But it wasn't just Michael's story that had detectives raising their eyebrows.

[Investigator]

He was still on our radar just because of his criminal background.

[Ashley Flowers]

A pretty serious one at that. Detectives noted that Michael was a registered sex offender who had been convicted of an assault that involved cutting someone's throat and grand larceny. He had been released from parole about two months prior to Rogers homicide. And he also fit Rogers own loose description of his shooter. But, and I again cannot stress this enough, so did many people in the neighborhood. Now, Roger maybe would have recognized Michael if he had gotten a good look at him. But other than stopping by to collect his rent in the past, which we know was at least sometimes paid by Kate, it doesn't seem like the men had any other connection, which didn't give much motive for Michael to want to kill Roger. But they still kept him on their short lists of persons of interest, which, as of that moment, was just Michael, Ori and Sam. But any way they cut it, they were still missing a piece of the puzzle. For Ori and Sam, the motive was there, but the MO Wasn't. They were known for sticking people up and stealing, but not killing them in the process. And for Michael, the violent criminal record was there, but not the motive. So that's the point where the investigation hit a brick wall. And it would take five years before the right person would come forward with more information revealing never before heard allegations surrounding Michael and that fateful day.

[Kate]

We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.

[Credit One Bank]

Create an oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details using the technique of Japanese joinery. Pieces are crafted from solid wood and precision cut for a silent stable foundation. Assembly takes just 5ish minutes with no tools required. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co Pandora. That's Thuma Co Pandora.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's interesting how in a case, the passage of time is the worst thing until it's the best thing. You see, this informant that came forward was someone that police had actually already spoken to back in 2003 when the shooting occurred. The guy lived nearby within view of the scene, so he was part of the original canvas. But back then he had nothing to say. Five years later, though, in 2008, that man who we've been asked to call Dan, was changing his tune.

[Dan]

I realize I should have come forward a long time ago, but I was scared. I had testified in the past on a case and some promises were made to me that were not fulfilled. I fear for my safety and that of my family's.

[Ashley Flowers]

That's a voice actor reading from Dan's statement. We've edited it only for time, clarity and to avoid revealing any identifying information. As advised by investigator Goletta, Dan said that he happened to to be looking out his window the evening of December 12, 2003 when he saw Roger leave Kate's house. He noted Roger had been there for about 10 minutes or so and that he had Stopped there, as well as other places in the neighborhood to collect rent. He watched as Roger got to his pickup truck and pulled away. And that's when he claimed he noticed Kate's husband, Michael, walked to the corner by Roger's son's place, stop, and pull up his hoodie. Dan watched as Roger made his way up his son's driveway. And then he said he saw Michael lift his hand and fire a gun several times down the driveway.

[Dan]

I was shocked and couldn't believe what I was seeing. The guy ran northbound on Madison street, then westbound along a house towards an alley in the back. I started to go out the back of my house to see where he went, but I thought better of it. I stayed inside my house, and the police came almost immediately. When they arrived, I went outside and found out that someone had been shot. There were several people outside standing near me, including the lady whose house Uncle Raj had been at earlier. She was very upset and crying hysterically. I thought perhaps she may have had feelings for Roger. A few minutes later, I saw the guy, the one who shot and the one who lives in the house with the woman, come from around the corner. His girlfriend. Girlfriend ran over to him, yelling that Uncle Raj had been shot. I noticed that he had on the same exact clothing he was wearing, the dark pants and dark jacket. But he got rid of the hoodie he had pulled up over his head. I saw him shrug his shoulders when she told him, as if he didn't care.

[Ashley Flowers]

Though he doesn't refer to them by name for some reason in that section, Investigator Goletta assured us that Dan was talking about Michael and Kate. Dan was even able to identify Michael in a photo lineup. Investigator Goletta told us that in that past case where Dan had testified, the one where he felt like promises were made to him and not fulfilled, Dan had some credibility issues. But despite those, Goletta felt like there were parts of his story, this story, that felt believable. I mean, for one, Dan described what we know were Roger's final movements that night. Kate's house to collect rent, then over to his son's place. Additionally, he specifically brought up that the shooter was wearing a hoodie, information that doesn't seem to have been in any public reporting from before that we could find. Plus, and I think this might be the most damning thing, Dan's description of the path he says Michael took when he fled that night matched up with the shoe prints officers found when they arrived on the scene, the path they believed the gunman took to get out of Dodge, as you heard, Dan described Kate as appearing very upset, crying hysterically when she found out Roger had been shot, and that he thought perhaps she may have had feelings for Roger. So, albeit tremendously speculative, Dan raised the idea to police that it was possible Michael may have had some anger or jealousy toward Roger. And that is something they didn't have until now, or as Investigator Goletta put.

[Investigator]

It, the possibility of a personal relationship gone bad.

[Ashley Flowers]

Police haven't been able to corroborate Dan's story, and due to his track record, if they were ever able to take this case further. Goletta said, it's just not the type of thing that would hold up in court now that it was years after Roger's murder. Investigators didn't have any luck verifying this with Kate. It sounds like she wouldn't talk with them at this point. And ever since their initial chat with Michael early on, it seems like he refused to engage with them, too.

[Investigator]

Here's the thing. When you're dealing with a hardcore criminal, somebody who has experience in the system, you got to be ready to charge somebody before you take a run at them in an interview. You got to have things that you can confront him on that you can prove and that he can't explain. So to do, really a cold interview where you know, there's not a lot that you can really confront him on, he knows you A, got nothing, and B, he's not going to willfully talk to you. If you don't have that level of proof to go through with a prosecution, it makes it almost impossible to try and do any type of a controlled interview with a guy.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's the same thing with Ori and Sam. Police don't have proof to connect any of these guys to Roger's murder, and they can't make them talk. And sadly, the silence from people who. Who potentially know more means there is nothing substantial to report back to Roger's loved ones. Our reporter Nina connected with Rogers wife, Denise McCall by phone, and ultimately she and her son Jason opted not to participate in this episode. It was just too hard to dredge it all back up again. Investigator Goletta said it's their pain that drives police to keep pushing for answers. In Rogers death.

[Investigator]

You walk that walk with them of grief while trying to do your best to try and bring the case to closure. And, you know, not every case gets solved, so it's a lot of responsibility, and it's tough when you can't give them that closure that they so desperately need and deserve.

[Ashley Flowers]

It's not just Rogers and media family that has felt his loss so profoundly. He used his radio platform to give other people a voice. Investigator Goletta told us how Rogers supported lesser known local artists when they were first starting out by listening to their tapes, inviting them on his talk show and airing their music for the first time ever, often when no one else would take a chance on them. In a 2003 article in the Democrat Chronicle, Denise described Roger as, quote, the kindest, sweetest, most generous, loving man I have ever known. End quote. The piece mentioned that Roger would rent houses and donate clothing and other necessities to his tenants in need, whether it was for those less fortunate or indie artists. For so long, Roger was a resounding voice in Rochester.

[Gary Goletta]

Always says please and thank you. That's very nice here on 96 WCMF. What a nice man here at 96 WCMF at the all night Rock at Woke cafe with a 90s rock youk need and the classic rock you love.

[Ashley Flowers]

Now Roger can no longer speak for himself. It is up to you to speak up.

[Investigator]

It goes back to what you believe in your faith. Either you cleanse your soul and you answer for it now or you answer for it later. You can help bring some sort of closure or relief to a grieving family. You can help answer questions that need to be answered and advance justice.

[Ashley Flowers]

Whether it was a robbery or something, something more personal than that. If you can provide any insight as to why someone shot and killed Roger McCall on December 12, 2003, detectives want to hear from you. Although we were asked to use pseudonyms for persons of interest in this episode, if any of the details or storylines sound familiar to you, or if you can corroborate Dan's statement about what he said he saw that night, please reach out. You can remain anonymous by contacting Rochester Crime Stoppers at 585-423-9300 or by visiting them online. We're going to have all the ways that you can contact crimestoppers and law enforcement directly in the show notes and the blog post for this episode. The Deck is an audio Chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about the Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com so what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?

[Gary Goletta]

At Designer Shoe Warehouse, we believe that shoes are an important part of, well.

[Kate]

Everything from first step to first dates, from all nighters to all time personal.

[Ashley Flowers]

Bests, from building pillow forts to building.

[Kate]

A life for all the big and small moments that make up your whole world. DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices at your DSW store or dsw.com.

[Gary Goletta]

Behind every homicide case is a process, an investigation, and people seeking answers.

[Ashley Flowers]

And it takes more than reading the headlines to get to the true heart of these stories. I'm Anna Sega Nicolasi, a former New York City homicide prosecutor.

[Gary Goletta]

And I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff.

[Ashley Flowers]

Each week on our podcast, Anatomy of Murder, we dissect real homicide cases from the perspective of those who have lived them investigators, prosecutors, and the people impacted most.

[Gary Goletta]

We dive into not just what happened, but but why it happened, focusing on the facts, process the decisions that shaped each case and the pursuit of justice.

[Ashley Flowers]

Giving you a deeper understanding of how each case unfolds.

[Gary Goletta]

Listen to Anatomy of Murder, available wherever you get your podcasts.