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The Deep Dish
Conversational Bridges to Evangelism
00:58:03
Melissa and Courtney talk with Becky Pippert about how to develop godly confidence to engage in evangelistic conversations with love.
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A
And they asked all the churches and the pastors where are you weakest? And they gave them where do you most need help? Every single church. Top of the list was evangelism. Number one. We don't know how. So we need we need to start helping the church and helping believers now. It's it's easier than they think.
- [02:30]
C
Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger. I'm here with my friend and co host Courtney Docter and today I'm so excited to be joined by our guest Becky Pippert. I have to say I read your book out of the Salt Shaker for the first time in college. So that was in the 90s and I went to my shelf this morning to see if I could find it. And, Becky, I just want to hold this up. Can you see this copy?
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A
Oh, wow. A long time ago. Oh, that's the hurt.
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C
I can remember the things I learned in that book. So it is just a joy to be here with you today.
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B
Oh, it is. We're so excited for this conversation. And out of the Salt Shaker and Into the World was published in 1979. Did you say that's when you were in college, Melissa? Clearly, I was barely born in 1979. But Becky has been writing and teaching about evangelism not only for many years, but also all over the world. We were even having a conversation before we hit record that she's headed to Spain to continue to teach and equip and strengthen the church. And so, Becky, thank you for just joining us in this way, even in the midst of a move and a storm and everything else you have going on right now. Could you start off by just telling us about the first time you remember sharing the gospel and what that did for you?
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A
Oh, I remember it vividly. The first time I ever shared the gospel was with my parents, and I had just come to the Lord. I was the first person in my family to come to Christ. And it sent shockwaves like, I can't tell you. They just weren't quite sure what to do with me. And. And my father was not a believer at all. My mother felt there was something up there somewhere. They weren't hostile. It just hadn't been a part of their upbringing. My grandparents hadn't gone to church, my first cousins, my aunts and uncles. I mean, there wasn't anybody. I was the first. So I called my dad and said he was at the office. And I said, daddy, when you have a chance, there's something I really want to talk to you about. He came home immediately. I think he thought something bad. And he came home. And I went. And the Lord had nudged me to do it. I did not want to do it. I was scared to death, and I loved him. The motive in sharing my faith was love, as it should always be, no matter who you're talking to. But I just. I was really nervous. But anyway, I just, you know, shared and said, the most wonderful thing has happened, and you're one of the most important people in my life. And I wanted you to be the first to know, which was a bit of fun. It wasn't exactly true. I was scared to death to tell him. Anyway, he was wonderful and said, yeah, you know, that, you know, faith Isn't a part of my life. What I didn't know. But he said, becky, I'm honored. You tell me. Told my mom to. What I didn't know is he was really worried and thought, oh, has she joined a cult? What is going on? And I found this out a little bit later. They also watch me very, very carefully because. And what is really funny is that he said, I really think you should tell your grandmother. His mother, who is a bit of a character. She. And I'm from Champagne, Illinois, and she is. That's where she was. And so I went to her, and before I could even tell her, she goes, I understand you've got religion.
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B
Wow.
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A
Oh, my gosh. You know. And she goes, oh, honey, I just don't understand it. You're so bright. You're such a good student. I go, grandmother, I didn't hang up my brains. And she goes, oh, honey, I know, but you were a cheerleader.
- [06:39]
B
Oh, that's amazing.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I said, yeah, listen, Grandma, I didn't. I said, I. You know, I haven't. You know, I don't hang up my brains. I haven't. It's still me. And she goes, well, all I can say is, too bad you didn't know your great great grandfather. And I. Now, nobody in my family were believers. And I said, oh, my goodness, was my great great grandfather a Christian? She said, well, for heaven's sakes, Becky, he was a Boy Scout. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I was thinking maybe a slightly narrower definition than Boy Scouts in America. And I thought, how do I explain this? I said, well, like, did he read the Bible and pray? She goes, oh, I didn't say he was a fanatic. Now, that was my religious heritage. It wasn't that they were hostile, but didn't have a clue. And my dad was. He was worried and looked at me much more carefully than I realized. The amazing thing a couple of years later is he said, becky, I've watched you so carefully, and I was afraid that, oh, kind of your natural exuberance and you were going to become weird, and I thought you'd given up your brains, you know, and all that. And he says, I have to tell you. And Lewis says something very similar to this. He said, the more I've watched you, the more I've realized you're more Becky than I could have ever imagined. Exactly. I think it's the best thing that ever happened to you.
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B
Wow.
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A
My dad heard me speak. My mom and my dad. Well, my mom heard me speak many times, but my dad Heard me speak one time, and I was. Now you know it. I was doing. Yeah, I was working with intervarsity and as an evangelist and training people around the country. And I was invited to speak to Urbana Missionary Convention. This is a huge thing for students now. My mom and dad, of course, live in champagne. So I flew in to speak. Mom and dad were there. And one of the things I learned. And I would say this to those of you whose parents aren't believers yet, be patient. Don't, don't. Don't push it down their throats. And above all, let them know how much, how grateful you are that they were your parents, that you believe God chose him to be your parents. Because so often what they think is. And my mom and dad felt this way. Oh, I bet she's critical of me because I didn't raise her in faith. You can't raise. You can't give what you don't have.
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B
Right.
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A
But I began to realize I really needed to affirm them. Anyway, I'm speaking at Urbana, and I come up now, it's 20,000 people. These are all students. And I said, there's something I want to say. First of all, I'm the only speaker speaking at the Urbana Missionary Convention who. I can say, welcome to my hometown. I can also say, welcome to my alma mater. I did graduate work at the University of Illinois in English Lit. But I'm also the only speaker whose parents are sitting in the auditorium right now. And I didn't know that they flashed a light on mom and dad, and they were sitting in a special section for people that knew the speaker. And there is a picture of dad looking at me and my. Looking at my dad that is just. Oh, my gosh. I cry every time I see the picture. But I said, I. It's not. Probably the only time in my life I'm going to be able to say before you, before 20,000 people and the Lord, I am so grateful that I have my mom and dad as my parents. God chose them. I couldn't be more grateful. I love them so much. And the entire 20,000 students rose to their feet and applauded my parents. It took a long time. Every one of them came to the lord. It took 30 years for my dad. Thirty years later, I led my dad to the Lord. Even my grandparents came to the Lord. But it takes time.
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B
That's amazing.
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A
Anyway, that was my first.
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B
I love that. I remember being in seminary. We had to do a thing called the genogram or geniogram, where you kind of trace through the generations, different things that might cause brokenness. So maybe trace divorce through the generations, trace addiction through the generations, trace, you know, estrangements through, like, all these different things. And as you see, how the sins of the fathers can be passed down, right? Things like brokenness can beget brokenness. And. But what I realized as I did, this is the only thing that goes backwards through the generations is the gospel, and it brings healing, and it's incredible. And so for anybody listening who's saying, you know, I. I am not just trying to pass my faith on, I'm trying to pass my faith back. Becky, your testimony is encouraging in that I saw it as my classmates and I did these genegrams, and it's just. It's the power of the gospel. It can go backwards, and it brings healing if sin comes down, you know, healing. And. And the gospel goes back. But I want to start. Okay, and, Melissa, I want to get your thoughts on this, too. We're talking about having these. So, like, what you had with your dad, that was the first time you had what we would now say is an evangelistic conversation, which is kind of a fancy way of saying we're just talking to somebody about our faith and about who Christ is to us and what he's done. But those conversations can be. Can be misunderstood. And we're going to talk about how to even start them and how to be comfortable with them. But what. How would you even just define that, both of you? Melissa, I'll start with you. Just this evangelistic conversation.
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C
Well, I define it a little differently now because of you, Courtney. So, I mean, I'm going to.
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A
I'm going to probably push it.
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C
Push it back on you, but. Because I found Courtney and I, Becky, were one time on a panel, and she had this three ways of thinking about different parts of not even sharing her faith. You say it, Courtney, because you're saying it better. Okay, well, then.
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B
Okay, so I'm a little intimidated, too, in front of Becky. But, Becky, you can push back and tell me what you think. So I was really pulling apart this idea of. And it came out of a Sunday school class I was teaching. I said, who has shared their faith this week? And almost everybody's hand went up, and I was like, what? You know, and then I started getting examples of it, and it was like, I smiled at the grocery store checkout clerk, or I did this good day. I was like, well, I don't think that's exactly what I'm talking about. And so. So I started thinking about the Abrahamic blessing and that he was blessed to be a blessing. Now we know that that ultimate blessing is Christ himself, But. But we are still called to just be a blessing. And thinking about that in terms of, you know, I can pick up trash on the side of the road, that's a blessing. That's. That's creation care. I can take a meal to a homeless shelter that is caring for the least of these. Like, there are places that I can just simply be a blessing. But then I started thinking more about outreach as sustainable relationships. So if I take a meal to a homeless shelter once, that's a blessing. If I go every week for three years and I start having conversations with people, that's outreach. I'm actually building real relationships with people. And then it's those relationships that are usually the places that we can walk across the bridge from this real life relationship and actually do what I would call evangelism. Because evangelism has content. If we're not using words right, if we're not talking about sin and salvation and Jesus and the Father sending the Son for our sake, then I don't think we've actually done evangelism. And so parsing those things out for me made me more intentional about the things I was doing. They're all needed, they're all necessary, they're all beautiful. But it was really helpful. So how would you push back or redefine that?
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A
Yeah, no, I think that there's three aspects, as I see it, to biblical evangelism. And the first is exactly what you're talking about. And that is when you look at Jesus, when you look at the early church, it is the way in is love. The way in is wanting to really get to know this person. Now I'm talking about personal evangelism. One to one. Personal evangelism. There's other forms of evangelism, but I'm talking about personal. It is just so critical that we. When you watch Jesus, he's asking questions. He asks questions, he listens, he shows respect. And what I find. So I was asked recently on a national radio show, and they said, becky, the thing that we're asked all the time is how do we get the conversation more quickly onto the gospel? How can we bring them onto our way of thinking? What can we do? And I said, and the answer is the way to get. If you want to get people interested in faith, to get them interested in what you're thinking, the way to do it is get on their turf first. That's a big mistake we make in evangelism. We want to get them over on our side, and we don't know them. We don't know what they're looking for. We don't know what their interests are. We don't know where their losses are. We don't know what are the treasures of their heart. We have to demonstrate a genuine interest. And so one of the ways that starts is find the common ground. What do you have in common? Just as human beings, what do you have in common? And what usually happens as trust is established and you've found ways you genuinely connect, they're usually much more open to talking about their beliefs, their views. And then that can move. That moves into what I think is the second aspect of evangelism. First, it's the model of love, of compassion, of listening, of showing respect, genuinely wanting to get to know that person and liking them. Secondly, though, because if they sense they're just an evangelistic project, it'll never work. Okay. The second thing, though, is love isn't enough. As important as love is, we are called to declare the truth. We are called to communicate the truth. And that's where we're so weak. We don't know. I think we're pretty good at knowing how to demonstrate love. I think we're really weak on knowing. But how do you communicate the truth? And how do you do it in a way that is natural, that doesn't seem like you're, you know, dropping an A bomb into the conversation? Oh, you like. So you're interested in, you know, whatever. What do you think Jesus thinks about that? It's like this bait and switch. We need to learn. And that's why I think training is so important in equipping. How do we do that naturally? How can we, without being manipulative, really have an understanding of what this person is interested in? What are their questions? And then being able to raise questions ourselves? Raising questions is absolutely critical. So it is the model of love. It is the message. How do we communicate it well and communicate in a way in language they can understand. And then thirdly, it's invitational. And again, I think we're fairly weak on that spot too. When at the right time, in the right place, we can say, is there any reason why you couldn't invite Jesus into your life? But that's going to take time. That usually it can happen in a single conversation, but it doesn't usually. So I think those are love, truth, and the invitation, which is the power of the Holy Spirit. So it's the power of God's love, the Power of God's truth, the power of the Holy Spirit that helps us bring a person to be able to ask, would they be interested in coming to Christ?
- [19:15]
C
Becky, one thing I love that you were mentioning is that evangelism is something we actually grow in and we get better at and we learn. Because I think sometimes we can view it as this category for professionals, you know, like, oh, those people who are evangelists. And I always love the examples of sowing seeds and fishing in Scripture, because these are these two themes that come up when we talk about sharing our faith. And my husband loves to fish, and I love to garden. And here's the thing. I. I think it is really interesting because these are both things we enjoy doing, and they're hopeful things. So we don't go into them miserable. We go into them expectant. And my husband can fish all day and catch literally nothing. And he's like, I had a great. You know, it was so fun getting to do this. And I think sometimes we view evangelism with this huge weight of like, oh, I've got to do this thing. And so I want to talk about that a little bit. But I also want to talk about how we learn to get better at it. Because the reality is, every year I garden, I get a little better. But first I got to sow the seeds. And then I learn stuff. Every year, I learn a little bit new stuff. He has gotten it to be a better fisherman. Cause he learned stuff. He's like, oh, you know what? I'm gonna catch a lot more in the fall than I am in the summer. Cause it's just too hot. How have. As you have walked this pathway of evangelism, as you have shared your faith over and over and over, what are a few things we can learn from your experience? What would you pass on to us and say, hey, this is the most hopeful way you can live, Go forward. This is a great skill to learn. Don't be intimidated by it. But here are some things that might help you. You're sowing seeds and going fishing, right?
- [20:58]
A
Wonderful question. You know, my husband and I do evangelism training conferences all over the world. We have, and we've lived in different places. We were in the UK and Europe for seven years right before COVID so got a real good understanding of that neck of the woods. But we've been everywhere. Here's the amazing thing. When you ask about, all right, what is it that makes evangelism so difficult? It's not that, you know, it really isn't as hard as you're making it, they all say the same thing. You would think with all these different cultures, what do we hear all the time? And this is some of the things we address in exactly your question. How do we help believers to become more comfortable? Because I think it is really important to get equipping. It helps us so much. All right, here's one. What are some of the fears that they have? I always get this. What if they ask me a question I can't answer? Like, that's just, oh, my gosh, what do we do? And I say, well, what did Jesus do when he was asked a question he couldn't answer? They look kind of, like, shocked. And I say, jesus was asked, when are you going to return? And he said, I don't know. Only the Father knows that I don't know. But if Jesus. If we were. If Jesus were going to speak the way we do, he would have said, oh, I don't know. Please don't tell anybody. I didn't know. Oh, this is so embarrassing. I didn't know. Jesus is such a model for how we go, how we do it. And if we don't know the answer to the question, what do we say? That's a fantastic question. I haven't a clue what the answer is. I am so glad God brought you into my life to sharpen me. I want to find out. You know, so often we think that unbelievers just want to, you know, devour us, gobble us up. And in fact, I think they're looking for authenticity and for people that are real and saying, wow, that's a great question. I don't know. Another thing I always hear is, it's not my gift. I can't do it. I do not have the gift of the evangelist. And I'm sure they're right. They could very well be right. But is that the point, that we have to have the gift of the evangelist or I'll hear, I'm introverted. I'm not extroverted like you, and I don't have the gift, and I couldn't possibly do it. What did Jesus say when he gave the Great Commission? Did he say, go ye therefore. All you extroverts, all you scripture memory buffs, all of you with great communication skills and knowledgeable in apologetics, and all you clergy, okay? And all you Baptists, go and make the sign.
- [23:44]
B
All you smart former cheerleaders.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. But the rest of you, listen, just hang out, sing some hymns. I'll be back. Jesus says it has Nothing to do with gifts, with personality, temperament. But he says, I'm with you. You abide me. I'm the greatest evangelist. I am the great evangelist, and I abide with you. I'll use you just as you are. We can do a sigh of relief because it isn't a magic formula. It isn't a combination of the right gift and the right temperament. Closely related to this, I think, is, and I hear this more than anything else in any part of the world, Becky, I really, and I believe them. I really do want to share my faith. I do. There's so many people I want to come to the Lord, but I can't. I hear this all the time when I'm giving talks in our conferences. Why can't you? I can't. And I go, be. And they always say, because I'm inadequate. And I go, well, of course you're inadequate. You're inadequate.
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B
Welcome to the claim.
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A
Everybody is inadequate. What does the Bible keep saying over and over again? There's a very famous journalist who recently came to Christ and he said when he was reading the Bible, he read it twice, straight through. And he said two things really struck me that God over and over again. What we learn is, I'm God and you're not. And if you can get that straight, you know, if you can really, you're not God, but you lean on God, you depend on God, and you need to move and depend on the power of the Holy Spirit. Where do we see this so clearly? Paul and Paul. God is glorified in our weakness. And when Paul went. And now Jesus is in heaven. And Paul went, take away my thorn in the flesh. I can't stand it. I don't like being weak. Please take it away. And Jesus says, no, I'm not going to take it away, because my grace is manifested in your weakness. I can take your weakness and take your inadequacy, and I can move in you in ways you can't even imagine. Paul goes, well, all right, then I'm not going to be ashamed of my weakness. I'm going to celebrate it. Do you know the first qualification for being used by God? We need to celebrate our inadequacy, not be ashamed of it. Celebrate God wants to use us as we are, with questions we can't answer, with not being insecure or afraid. God will use us as we are. And that is the way. Now. There are skills we can learn and we can keep getting better. We can get better listeners. That's in the first. What's the first part? We need to demonstrate love, respect, be better listeners, ask good questions, etc. And that's one part of evangelism training. But there's a second part. What is the gospel and how can we understand it and then connect it, communicate it in language they will understand? How do you talk about sin, for instance, in a culture that doesn't believe in sin? We can talk about that in a minute. But how do we communicate the gospel? But also how do we take what the gospel offers and tie it to the person's need? Look at John 4, the woman at the well. I mean, this is a woman. It's absolutely extraordinary. She had had five husbands, divorced five times, we assume, and the man she was living with was not her husband. This was in first century. She's a Samaritan. She is in a really moral, traditional, shame based culture. Have you either of you personally known anybody who's been divorced five times? I'm just curious.
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B
My great aunt was married seven times.
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A
Wow.
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B
So there we go. There we go.
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A
Yes.
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B
It is unusual.
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A
It is unusual. It's unusual. And now she's with the six. And what does Jesus do when he's talking with, you know, one of the particularly, how did he communicate the gospel? He didn't sidestep her problem when he says, but how did he first communicate the gospel? It's living water. I give water. And that just resonates with Judas that we're reading this because the Bible is full of how it's vital God gives us life. The solution is so wonderful, we've got to be more positive about the solution. But what God gives us is alive and it's living water and it comes in us. And she goes, okay, then give it to me. I won't have to come here and draw water alone. Because she is so isolated. And that's when Jesus says, why don't you go call your husband? Well, I don't have one. You know, that's true. You've been married five times and the man you're living with now is not your husband. But thank you for telling me the truth. He deals with the problem, but he commends her. He goes out of his way to respect her, to lift her up, to treat her as a woman created in the image of God with a problem. But what does he tie the gospel too? You need living water. One of the things that I love to do is look at all the different metaphors Jesus uses in talking about the gospel. He ties it to the person's need. You're not going to know their need or what they're looking for if you don't take time to understand them. But then we've got to be able to understand the gospel and find ways to communicate it in English and to tie it to where they're struggling, what, what they need. So those would be starters, I would say, of things that we can improve on and learn.
- [30:07]
C
Hey friends, thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Deep Dish. We're so glad you're joining us on this conversation. And we just want to take a minute to thank our sponsor, Crossway Books. We're really excited about the resources they provide for the church. And there's a new one that's coming out that I think is really exciting. It's the esv, the Biggest story Holy Bible for Kids. So this is perfect for ages 6 to 12, which Courtney, I mean, you've got some grandkids in that age. So are you excited about this?
- [30:38]
B
I'm so excited. When I was reading about it. So each book of the Bible opens with a colorful three page introduction that includes the summary of the book, the timeline, the. It's almost like a little study Bible for kids. There's a Digging Deeper section that recaps the passage and prompts kids to learn to reflect, to discover and pray. So there's a way to respond to what you're learning. It includes 104 stories and the art is designed by Don Clark. Throughout the entire book, there's a QR code that links to animated story videos. It's just incredible. It will help kids grow in their knowledge of God's word. So pick up a copy of the biggest story Holy Bible for Kids wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org ESVkidsBible and find out how you can get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. I love that because you're reminding us nobody's a project. It's all done in the context of relationship, from the motive of love. There are some very tangible things that we can do to learn and grow. I like especially just going through the Bible and looking at the different analogies that the scripture uses to speak of the gospel or to speak of the hope that we have in Christ. You know, I think so often that when we're thinking about evangelism, we tend to think the one off conversation that we have in an Uber ride or on an airplane, you know, the back of the napkin, the person that we just drop the gospel in their lap and then we never see them again. And honestly, those are just A lot easier to have because there is nothing at risk. There are no stakes in the game for us relationally. I'm not risking relationship with the person that I'm going to sit next to for two hours. But I think this idea. I want to talk about how we actually move these conversations into the relationships that we already have. You know, we don't stand on a street corner because then we're not doing it in the context of relationship. Then we can't apply the gospel like you were just saying Jesus did for the woman at the well. But what about the women that you sit in carpool line with or the women that are in your book club or the women that you walk with or you go to the gym with? I mean, these are the people that are in our real lives that we actually have contact with and relationship with, where over time, we get to actually know what people's real needs are. And so how can we shift our thinking to think of all of the relationships we have in light of sharing the gospel?
- [33:19]
A
That is a profound question. And I want to answer it in two different ways or in two different examples. If I could. I want to take an example of. Okay. Because I don't think the way we do it is really very different from the person we don't know and the person we do know. I think the principles are similar. Let me give you an example. I was flying in. I was just back, I think from where we'd been in Europe for seven years. And I was flying, was a long flight in the States. And I sat down next to a woman named Sue. Now I was preparing. It was very big conference and I was preparing to my lectures and reading and writing and all that. Sue was very chatty and she kept talking. And I was going. And I was sort of thinking, oh, would you please stop talking so I can write my talk and how to talk to non Christians. Yeah, yeah, okay. And then she goes. And then I went, wait a minute. And I said to myself, lord, and you always start here, whether it's somebody you know or you don't know. Lord, right now I'm asking you in the name of Jesus, would you open up an opportunity here? Would you, with this woman? Would you help me understand who she is? Help me to understand whether it's somebody you've just met or somebody you know. Let us go deeper. Let me see more deeper. Let me see them as you see them. But it's a fast prayer, but it's saying, holy Spirit, come let your love flow through me and help Me what to say, what to ask, how to listen. Help me. But you always invite the Holy Spirit every time. I never have a conversation with an unbeliever where I'm not first praying, okay? I pray. I put away my book and my notes, and so what are we supposed to do? What did we learn from Jesus? One of the things we learn is find common ground. And how do you do that? You ask questions. So I began asking her questions, and then she trying to find out where we really connected as human beings. Well, it didn't take long, and I found out we both were world travelers. We love languages. We love to learn. And we had a long conversation about, as Americans, our experience in many places in the world. Okay? And it was a wonderful conversation. That freed her. Once we had that commonality, we found a connection as human beings. She started talking about some of her beliefs, and so she started saying things like, you know, becky, I tell you, if you want to be a man on Monday and a woman on Friday, for heaven's sakes, go ahead. That's your business. That's not mine. And, you know, she's a little bit later, I really believe in karma. I really believe in the law of karma. And so I'm listening to her, you know, talking about these various beliefs, and then she goes, and I really believe human beings, that our planet is filled with people who are good. Now, even a close friend, somebody, you know, carpool, Rook could say the exact same thing. I really believe that this world is goodness, full of goodness. And I said, now what don't you say at that moment? You don't say, are you kidding me? Do you want to look around and see the mess? And that's one of the gifts of being alive in this time, is everything. Things are so difficult that people are realizing it and saying what's going on. But that's not what I said. I said, let me ask you something. I said that the world is full of goodness. People are entirely good. What do you think about the state of the world? I'm just curious. How would you analyze it? She goes, and this is 10 years ago. Imagine what she'd say today. She goes, it's a mess. The world is an absolute mess. It's falling apart. I go, okay, so help me out here. How can the world be full of only good people and the world be a mess? I mean, I don't see how that works. And she goes, that is a very good question. She goes, actually, I think there are two problems. I think most of us are psychologically Wounded and we need therapy or a lot of us are addicts and we need recovery. Don't you agree? I said, I agree. Those are two huge problems, and I agree that those solutions have helped people. But I've got a question for you. All right, so you're in recovery and you realize you have to get over to an addiction to alcohol. And with that help, you are able to actually overcome your addiction to that specific thing. But the longer you're in recovery and looking, really looking at yourself, you realize that you're actually addicted to more than just booze. You're also addicted to yourself. There's nobody we care more about, think more about, but we're addicted to ourselves. She went, that is so true. That is so true. But where in the world do we go for real? Oh, oh, oh, yeah, that is so true. We're addicted to ourselves. I said, what if the problem isn't just substances or psychological wounding of which both are real, but what if our problem is a problem of the heart? She goes, I agree, but where do we go for rehab of the heart? And for the first time, and we've been talking an hour and a half for the first time, I mentioned God. And I said, you know, where do we go for rehab of the heart? I can only think of one thing, and that's God. And I have to tell you something. I went from an agnostic to actually eventually becoming a Christian for exactly that reason. That it was the only answer I could think of to truly transform us from addicted to ourselves to actually becoming free. But I said, you know, my coming becoming Christian was a long story, you know, so we won't go there. And I only said that because I wanted to know if she was really interested. And she goes, yes, I want you to go there. I want to know, how did that happen? We spent the rest of the flight talking about faith. Now, what's so critical about this example? The critical thing is that my bringing up God was organic in the conversation. It wasn't one of these bait and switch. It was absolutely organic. It wasn't manipulative. And when I said, well, you know, we don't have to talk about that. No, no, no, no, I want to talk about it. And we did. One of the things that was really interesting is that she said, I just, I feel that, oh, oh, we're talking about faith. We're taught in that. And in that context, she was really asking me, in essence, what's the message? What's the essence of this Christian thing? And I was talking to Her. And she said, becky, does the Bible tell us why we're so self addicted that we are addicted to ourselves and we are locked in and we are. We're not free and we're all. There's an emptiness there. I said, yeah, it does. Well, what do they say is the problem? I said, well, I'm going to use my language first, but the Bible is saying this. We've got a God complex. We keep getting ourselves and God mixed up. Why didn't I first say it's sin? Because she wouldn't understand it. Right? And in fact, I said, we've got a God complex. We get ourselves and God mixed up. God is God. We are not. And she goes, oh, I have a God complex. I mean, I am in charge. And I am in charge because I believe I'm the master of my own universe.
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B
Wow.
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A
And she said, I've got a God complex. And she goes, you said that's biblical language. What does the Bible call it? I said, sent. She goes, sin. I thought sin was like drugs, sex and rock and roll. I said, that's behavior. I said, that might result in behavior, but the core of it. I said, there's really two cores. But I said, two aspects, I think, to what sin is. But I said, one is this addiction to ourselves. And it is. And she goes, well, she goes, I tell you what. She said, I know I've got a God complex, but I could tell you the truth, and I know I'm God of my universe, but boy, I said, how's it working out for you? And she goes, how's it working out? I find it exhausting. I said, now that's very interesting. Why would you find it exhausting? Because if that's who you truly are, it's liberating. It should vitalize you, revitalize you. Why would you find it exhausting? She goes, I don't know, but I have a feeling you do. And I said, yeah, you know why you find it exhausting to be God? Because it's way above our pay grade. I tried to be God. It's exhausting. We land, we get there. And she said, becky, if I wrote you, could we have a discussion about faith? Could we keep this up? And we did, for a long time. Center books, etc. But let me just say a couple of things here. What are tips for? How do we raise the topic of faith? And the first thing is you pray. You pray and ask God every day. Guide me to people you're seeking even. Some may be open, some may be real. Secret, but guide me. Then before you have the conversation, pray a silent prayer. That's number one. Number two, find common ground. Once we really discovered that we loved traveling around the world and all that we connected as human beings so that when it came up that I was a Christian, she couldn't put me in this little box because we'd already connected authentically. So you pray, you find common ground. Ask good questions. Questions are so powerful because they aren't preachy. They reveal that we've really been listening to them. Funny thing about questions, it actually causes people to reconsider their views without being judgmental. Because when I said, okay, so how is it then that when you say that people are good, how do you work that out? If you say the world's a mess, I'm asking her to rethink her worldview, but it wasn't judgmental. Agree where you can. Keep asking good questions, but agree where you can. I agreed with her about her analysis of the problems. And I said, I think it might be deeper. Here's where I think it could be another really important point. Ask questions, but use their terminology. We some. We make the mistakes of wanting them to come on our turf and to understand our language. The first thing I did is I said, what if it's an addiction to ourselves? I didn't say sin yet, but I used her language. And then she goes, well, yeah, but you know, what exactly does that mean? And I said, well, the Bible says it's a God complex. Well, I've got a God complex. You know, I still not using biblical language. Then I went to sin. You can use biblical language. It's important to. But you need to explain what it means. It is. I. It is so exciting to be a Christian and to keep understanding better and better who God is, what he has done for us. But learn how to say it in English. That's one of the things we do and conferences. The wonderful thing is I was able to bring up the topic of God and it was natural to the conversation. I didn't learn that automatically. It took me time and years to listen to people. But then to be able to bring up the subject in a natural way without being manipulative.
- [45:52]
C
I love the way you just walked us through that whole story because it's really so informative. And I just really realize the moment where I would have gotten the most caught up is when she started giving her diagnosis. Because I would have been like, yeah, that's wrong. But I would have thought, okay, in this moment, how do I speak the Truth in love, you know, I would have felt like it's, you know, and what I love that you did is you got her to the truth in love. But it wasn't through confrontation. It was through, like, revelation. You kind of exposed it, you know, by asking her really good questions. And that is such a place I want to grow. I mean, because I can ask good questions about. Tell me about your life, Tell me what you do. But it's when we get to. Tell me what you think and then try. You know, I just. I think what you did there was just really, really, really wise. And I think it's not our natural instinct. We think we're supposed to. That's what you confront. No, you're wrong. And let me tell you why you're wrong.
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A
And.
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C
And that's when it goes south. And I think that's when we feel the discomfort rather than, okay, well, tell me how you. How you've would, you know, like, even just being. Being inquisitive about what do you think the biggest problem is then? How do you think we should solve it as a society? Like asking.
- [47:25]
A
Exactly.
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C
And that's this being curious of other people, because I think when we ask their thought, they often then ask our thought.
- [47:35]
A
Exactly. That's exactly right. You know, one of the things we do in training conferences is I say, okay, once you write down the name of somebody you really know. Well, now, we haven't gotten to that yet about the. The person that we really know well. And what are some of the differences? There's not a lot of differences, but there are some. But what is this person? What's their passion? What's their interest? Then I want you to write and I do this exercise where we're looking at how do you go from a natural conversation to a spiritual? And I give them sort of principles. I said, using these principles, I want you to ask four questions that go from a natural conversation to a spiritual conversation. It is amazing. When you're breaking it down, you really can learn. It's a different way of thinking in a way, but it is learnable, it is doable, and people feel heard.
- [48:30]
C
So let me ask you this question. Most of us are going through our days and we are simply distracted by the fact that we forgot to order the dog food and now we're roaming to the store and we're just disheveled ourselves. And we can make evangelism something. Oh, we're going to do that when there's a space for it. And the other thing you did here is you noticed A person. You put away your notes and you had the conversation. You know, we all live lives with our phones. They're so distracting. Our lives are distracting. How do we do this? How would you encourage a woman who's listening, who's just living her life, and she's like, I never even have evangelistic opportunities. I think they're there. We maybe struggle to see them. So how can we train our eyes to see the fields before us? It says the fields are white for harvest. How can we get a bigger vision for our mundane lives?
- [49:33]
A
One is prayer and saying, lord, you know, when he. He commands us, but. But he commands us in love. And the Scriptures say, take advantage of every opportunity to share the hope that is within you. Where we get confused is we think that the verse goes, take advantage of every situation and share the hope of the gospel. That's not what it says. Take advantage of every opportunity. So we go, lord, you've called me to share my faith for love. You know, what glorifies you is people being able to come home, to find their true home. But help me. All right, so you pray. Secondly, you look at Jesus, you look at, really the whole of the Bible, but, boy, it's so moving to look at Jesus and to see the way he kept dealing with people so different than he was. And the way he talked to unbelievers was just so moving. And then right down, all right, what am I going to do? What. What do I learn here? How am I going to do that? And then look at. How do I spend my day? Well, I like to walk, and I go with my neighbors walking. And that could be an opportunity just to raise some questions. It's easier if it's one on one, but if it's in a group or you like art and you're taking an art class. What, what you're standing. I don't know how many times I'd be at soccer games for my kids or what performances they were doing, whatever. And we'd be, you know, the moms waiting for the kids and beginning to develop conversations. And you don't start. I mean, again, this is people, you know, ask them for a cup of coffee, get together, have them over for meals. We've got to get to know people. And so be the home where you're bringing the parents of the kids that your kids go to school with. But you do have to be intentional. It isn't. You're exactly right. We're busy, we're distracted. But just say, lord, give me one person, just one person. I can reach out to and then begin that social relationship, telling them when they do share something, oh, I really will pray. In fact, I will. If depends on how well I know I might go, can I just pray just now? And I know you're not sure where God is and all that, but would you mind if I did? I'm just so grieved about what you're going through. So don't even. There's opportunities and prayer can be another opportunity. But we need. Yeah, we need to be intentional and we need to follow the way of Jesus. You know, so much research now is telling us that there is a real an openness to talking about spiritual things in light of all these problems. And I was just. This spring I was invited to San Francisco and Oakland. Those are two of the most gospel resistant regions. And when in San Francisco, I gave a conference just for pastors. And it was pastors all up and down California saying, we're trying to figure out, how do you build an evangelistic culture in our church? And so we spent the day trying to help them and equip them. But you know what they said? They said, and then the next day I gave a conference to all their churches. Their churches all came together. And so we were doing evangelism training. But what the pastor said was for the first time that I cannot tell you how long in San Francisco, Oakland Christians are parishioners. Our congregation are coming up to us and saying, you know, this has been a place that's so hostile to faith, so hostile to Christianity, that we love them. We certainly our churches are doing justice, you know, reaching out to the poor. I'm trying to do something to make them interested. But I never talk about my faith. There is no verbal explanation. It's too hostile. And the pastors were saying to me, we have so many people in our church saying that their non Christian friends are saying, we were told that if we did these social policies, the world would be great. And the world is a mess. Where do you have hope? Well, Christians had been quiet for so long, they weren't sure quite how to do it. And that's why they asked us to come, my husband and me, because they said, how can we equip the church to do this? It was interesting. Now that's where they were in Portland. They asked us to come and this is in the spring because they said, this is a big ministry that ministers to churches throughout the Northwest. And they asked all the churches and the pastors, pastors, where are you weakest? And they gave them, where do you most need help. Every single church. Top of the list was evangelism number one. We don't know.
- [54:45]
C
Yeah.
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A
So we need. This is. We need to start helping the church and helping believers know it's easier than they think.
- [54:54]
C
I love what you're saying about even the life of the church, because I think for someone who's listening, who maybe does feel just so intimidated, I hear Becky do it and I'm like, oh, that's exactly right. Have no idea. I. I would just encourage you. I have found it. It's surprising, the response when I just say, hey, would you like to come to Bible study with me, or would you like to come to church with me? Bible study is sometimes a little bit of an easier ask, actually, especially if it's in the neighborhood or something. But just being invitational in our everyday lives and not separating those things and just even. Even, I think the first hint when you know, you're talking to your neighbor and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm heading to Bible study, just being honest about who we are and what our lives are, sometimes that makes you the person, just like your dad said, to bring it back at the beginning, or your. Or your grandmother, you got religion. They know, yes, she's religious, but when they finally maybe have that moment that their life starts to fall apart, you might be the very one they turn to just cause they think, wow, she's always been so friendly, you know, she's always open to a conversation. Maybe I could ask her. And so I just don't want us to even discount the power of our local churches and to say, yeah, maybe you don't know how to proclaim it, but Lord willing is proclaimed every Sunday at our churches. And so maybe you bring them with you and you say, sit with me on this pew.
- [56:26]
A
And.
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C
And I think there are a lot of people just, like you said, more open than ever to being invited to something like church, which, you know, maybe used to be intimidating, but they've realized the secular society that we've tried to create doesn't work. It's been a complete failure in a lot of ways. People are just. Just as unhappy as they were before, even more so. And so we actually have something hopeful to give people. So this. This conversation's been so helpful.
- [56:57]
A
My. My last book was called Stay Salt. The World Has Changed. Our Message Must not. And the very last chapter is all about how can we build an evangelistic culture in our church? How can we be a church? And this is so important, that knows how to welcome the stranger in Our midst. Yeah, that knows how to reach up, knows how to love. And how can we be a church that can help our parishioners know that evangelism is easier than they think. But we need. But I want to add just one amendment to that, and that is to immediately ask somebody to come to church or immediately ask, and you weren't saying this, but immediately ask them to go to a Bible study is probably premature. We need to talk, we need to have fun, we need to have them in our home. And then in the context of that natural relationship and say, oh, you know what, our pastor was just doing a sermon on this very thing we're talking about. But where do you find love? How do you do it without. Anyway, whichever way you want to say it. If you ever want to come, I'd love to bring you. Let me just say one other thing about Bible study. This is another thing I have in Space Hall. I think one of the most effective tools I have seen in evangelism, besides the whole relational part, the personal evangelism and all that, as you get to know each other and as trust develops, have what I call a seeker Bible study. I write a lot about this. I've written many seeker Bible studies. In other words, say your questions are so good. Have you ever actually read the New Testament or have you read any portion of the Bible? What did you think? Well, usually say, well, I remember maybe when I was a child or. No, I haven't, I really haven't. Say, oh, listen, listen, what would you think about just getting together and then get together with a couple of other friends where they haven't figured it out? They don't know, they're not sure what they think. But we're trying to just try and find out who is Jesus, what was he like? And I think you're going to be really surprised. He's very different than what you think. And so it's a perfect follow up to missions, to evangelistic mission. But it's always a wonderful place to go as the relationship develops. Do a secret Bible study. I've got one in John, I've got one in Luke, and I've done this all over the world. I cannot tell you the number of people I have seen come to Christ because they were in a group with like minded people, but with two maybe Christians leading it. But they were loving. They introduced them to Jesus. The power of the word of God is so immense. And Jesus just, He just comes alive.
- [59:52]
B
Becky, I just love that. I think we have such a. We sometimes we put little Easter eggs in the, you know, little, little treasures in the, in the background. And I put this one, which is, we wrote this as, as a study. It's on the I am statements, behold and believe. And so we're going to drop your studies in the show notes. We're going to drop this one in the show notes. We're going to drop your latest book, Stay Salt. I love that title. I feel like this conversation could go on all day. And I am so grateful because you're not just an example of this. You are equipping the church for this. And this is our greatest joy. This is, this is why we're here. We have, we want, I mean, our prayer, our hope is that everybody listening and that, you know, Melissa and I, as we're having this conversation with you, that we will be more compelled, that we will have more joy, more desire to continue to have these conversations in all spheres of our life. And so we're praying that for everybody listening. We're praying that for ourselves. And we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you have found this conversation helpful, which I don't know how you couldn't have because, Becky, that was just, just incredibly helpful. It was practical and it was also compelling. But if you have found this helpful, then please like and subscribe. And really what we need right now, Melissa and I have been sort of putting this out there at the end of every episode. We would love your review on Apple Podcast. It just helps us get these conversations into more people's hands. So please consider sharing it with a friend. We'd love your review on Apple Podcast and we will see you next time on the Deep Dish.
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C
This is a friendly reminder that the price for The Gospel Coalition's 2026 Women's.
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A
Conference will increase after October 31st.
- [61:46]
C
Register today for the lowest possible price of $229 at TGCW 26.
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B
Thousands of women from around the world.
- [61:56]
C
Will gather in Indianapolis to turn their eyes to Jesus. In the seven keynote sessions, we will.
- [62:02]
A
Learn from the Psalms how to bring our emotions and experiences, all of us, to God so our lives can be transformed by Him.
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B
You will hear keynote messages from Courtney.
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C
Docter, Melissa Krueger, Nancy Guthrie, Vanessa Hawkins.
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A
Ruth Cho Simons, Mark Frogup, and Jen Wilkin.
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C
So join us June 11 through 13.
- [62:23]
A
In Indianapolis for three days of gospel centered teaching, worship, learning and connection. Remember, the last day for the current price is October 31st, so sign up today at tgcw26.com before it increases. We can't wait to see you there.