Nancy Guthrie (5:39)

Well, the thing is, when we say, I'm going to pray for you, deep in our soul, we intend to, and we want to, but just the dailiness, the busyness of life gets in the way. And then we see. See them a week later, and we think, I haven't at all. Right? So, I mean, I think a practical tool is we all carry around with us this tool that we could use perhaps, you know, to set a reminder, like a daily alarm that reminds us to pray for a particular person. But I think you're right, Melissa. There's something about putting pen to paper, you know, make. Making a list, making a note, putting something somewhere where we can see it. But I. I think what goes along with it, what really drove me to put together that book, I'm praying for you, was that I want. What we want to get past is just that vagueness of I'm praying for you. Because the question is, what are you praying? Right. And. And the thing is, we all have the tendency, especially when we're praying for someone suffering that, like, the only thing we know to pray that we maybe pound on again, as in is begging God to do things differently, is to ask him to heal, to restore, to remove, to change the circumstances. Why do we do that? Because we've decided in our mind what the best outcome is.

Courtney Docter (7:23)

Yeah.

Nancy Guthrie (7:23)

And so, I mean, it's. It's not just that, though. I mean, it's. It's our hearts of compassion, God's compassion. We see someone who's hurting and we want them to not have to hurt some more so much anymore. And so we determine what we want to pray toward. And the thing is, I think we're free to do that. I think the scriptures open us up to just shift, share with our loving Father what we want. But I think that means we have a limited vocabulary in prayer, that maybe that would be the only thing we know how to pray. And the truth is, if. If we are looking at the whole of the scriptures, we see over and over again that God has good purposes for the suffering that he allows into the lives of those who love Him. And so if that is the Case maybe I don't want to always be praying that suffering away. Maybe what I, what I want to do is to lean into the scriptures, to open them up and see what they have to say about what God's good purposes are for the suffering in the lives of those who belong to him, and then pray toward those ends. Yeah, pray. So what that does is it expands our vocabulary for prayer rather than solely every day, take it away, heal this, you know, do this, Lord. Instead. Day by day, as I'm seeing various places in the scripture, the good purposes that God has for prayer, then I begin to ask him to do that. So, for example, John 9, we read about the Jesus healing the man who was blind from birth. And you remember the disciples asked him, like, who sinned this man? Or his parents who was born blind. And Jesus said, you know, neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened. That the work of God or the glory of God might be put on display in his life. And when I read that, I say, okay, yeah, I want that there's a purpose, right?

Courtney Docter (9:43)

Yeah.

Nancy Guthrie (9:44)

And so both in my own suffering or as I pray for someone else, that, that expands my vocabulary so that I can begin to pray for that person. Lord, don't wait for the suffering to be over. Don't wait for the problem to be fixed, to put your glory on display. But you know, even now, in the midst of her suffering, in the midst of his suffering, would you put your work on display? Now a challenge for that specific example is the way God's glory gets put on display as he gets the miracle.

Courtney Docter (10:19)

Yeah.

Nancy Guthrie (10:21)

And so we, we see that and we think oftentimes, you know, well, I, I didn't get the miracle. This person I'm praying for isn't getting the miracle. And yet is it not a miracle that you and I, in the midst of the worst thing we could imagine, could have peace and joy and that we could trust God with the hardest thing we can imagine. I would say that when the world looks at us, when we are suffering and what they see is joy and peace and patience and kindness and a lack of self centeredness, I would say that is the work of God.

Courtney Docter (11:05)

Right.

Nancy Guthrie (11:06)

Being put on display in the emanating from the interior of a person's life.

Courtney Docter (11:12)

Yeah, yeah. And that he can use it for not just his glory, but for our good. And that we can trust that more and more that, you know, even James talking about, you know, produces endurance and let endurance have its, you know, its result and that we would be perfect and complete. That we are becoming more like Christ through those things. Melissa, you referred to God's sovereignty. And then, Nancy, you're talking about ways that we pray for maybe more than the removal of the circumstances, change in the circumstances. So we're going to have an entire episode on the sovereignty of God, meaning that his sovereignty, we, we acknowledge and confess that he is all powerful, that he is all knowing, that he knows the end from the beginning. And a lot of times the, the idea of God's sovereignty leads people to the erroneous belief that our prayers don't matter, God is going to do what he's going to do. And so why would we even ask him in the first place? And so, Nancy, can you speak to why that is simply not true?

Nancy Guthrie (12:24)

I love this question, because what I want to say back is, if God is not sovereign, why would you pray at all?

Courtney Docter (12:34)

Right. Right.

Nancy Guthrie (12:38)

If he does not have the power to act, to change, if, if we would think he doesn't have the will or the want to, to care for his own, you know, why pray at all? So it's actually because he is sovereign, because he can, that we pray. And we pray out of faith. Honestly. We pray because he has told us to pray. We pray because we see in the Scriptures over and over again that actually our prayers matter. Yeah, that's hard for us to imagine, especially when we do have a big view of his sovereignty. But it, but it's so clear, I think all the time about the Lord's Prayer where he's, where He. He instructs us to pray, give us this day our daily bread. Now we can just operate on the other bigger promises in the Bible that he's promised to care for his own and provide. But what he has designed is that we would come to him every day and say, daddy, will you give me what I need? Not for just out there for would you give me what I need today? And you know, it's the relationship of a father and child that wants that fellowship and once, that daily dependence. Daily dependence. And I tell you what, right now I'm working on my seminary class on the prophets, and I have seen this so clearly. So just yesterday I was working through some questions, study questions on Isaiah, you know, and what's the problem with these people that Isaiah is talking to? And one of their big problems is that they're going to worldly sources for protection and to get what they need instead of trusting and asking God. And I'm just like, here's the Old Testament picture of this, right? It's like and honestly, I am geared toward this. I am a fixer, and I. I like to tap into my network and figure out a solution to the problem. And, man, am I seeing myself in these Old Testament Israelites. It's like, I'm going to find a solution for this that I can work out. And what I'm just seeing in the Scriptures, both in that old. These Old Testament pictures, as well as, you know, the Lord's Prayer and just really throughout the Scripture is what our Father desires from us is daily dependence. And this is. Isn't that at the heart of prayer? And so rather than just presuming, well, he's, you know, he'll take care of things. No, rather than presume, he calls us to press in, to pray, to always be interacting with him about the things that are important to us. And not just that, the Scripture, the things that are important to Him. This is why he can say in the Scriptures, you know, ask and you will receive. You know, a part of that paradigm is the expectation that we are in such a relationship with him, how, through His Word, that we're who he is and what he wants and what he loves and what he hates is being impressed upon our hearts and minds. So that as we turn to him in prayer, more and more we're asking for the things that are heavy on his heart and asking him to accomplish his ways. I think maybe the best verse for that is, we think about Psalm 30, 37, 4. You know, delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Which I wonder if you guys were like this, like, for a lot of my life. That was like the single girl's hope, right? You're gonna get really close to God.

Courtney Docter (17:14)

The desire of your heart is.

Nancy Guthrie (17:16)

Yep, yep. You got this desire, you know, for that man. And, you know, so you're gonna. You're gonna. Okay, so rather than just focusing on that, I'm gonna really get happy in God and then he will give me what is the true desire of my heart. Yeah, but actually, that's not what this verse is communicating. It's as we delight ourselves in who God is and what he wants in this world and what he wants for our lives. What is it that happens? He actually gives us implants in us new desires. I mean, that's what I really want. That's what I really want to happen as I fellowship with God in His Word, that He would be plucking out my very fleshly, worldly desires, and in its place, he would be implanting in me new desires have you ever had.

Courtney Docter (18:19)

That experience where he gives you something to pray for? You don't realize that you think you're praying out of your own desires, but then he gives it to you and it's like he's proven proving himself. Like I, I've had those experiences where I wasn't expecting to pray for something and then I found myself asking a very specific thing and then he did it and it's like, oh, you gave me even the words to pray because you are proving yourself to me again and again, you know, oh, how I've proved him over and over. And so it's that sense of like, not only is he changing my desires, he's showing me through giving me certain desires, like you were saying, giving me new desires and then prompting me to pray for them. It's just, it's amazing to me when that happens.

Melissa Krueger (19:07)

I love even what you're saying there too. Because, Courtney, sometimes I think he's also showing he'll do it. I get to the end of my rope with a lot of those things, you know, and it's kind of like, I mean, especially when I think about, I mean, we've all been moms, you know, we're all fix it, right? We're going to fix these children and I, I can. And then I'm going to read articles that will help me fix them and then I'm going to read books that are going to help me fix them. I'm going to talk to this friend about that and I'm going to do this. And then suddenly I'll be like, have I even prayed about this? And then, you know, it's like, oh. And I think it gets to what you're saying, Nancy, about that daily dependence on like he wants us to come to him so that we almost. And that's a protection on us so that we don' wow. You know, it's because I figured it out. I did it in me. And that's where we tend to go, I think, in our lives. It's always, I did it just like the two year old toddler, I do it myself, you know, and it's like he keeps saying, no, let, let me, let me show you how much I want to be your provider and come to me and you can come to me. And sometimes I'm embarrassed what I have to keep coming to the Lord with. I don't know if you all ever feel this way. I'm like, I'm the slowest creature, Lord, just the confession aspect of prayer and all that. I come And I'm so slow, and I'm like, ashamed to even ask for mercy and grace again.

Nancy Guthrie (20:36)

Again with this one.

Courtney Docter (20:37)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (20:38)

And then I can remember it was like the spirit just brought to mind. You don't graduate from grace, Melissa. This isn't a school you graduate from until you're face to face with the master. I mean, then we'll graduate maybe from this need to confess and repent and everything. And I think prayer is just a special communion that we. That we really get to have with the Lord. And it is important to teach the next generation. You know, Nancy, you've written on teaching children how to pray. Why can that be so hard and why is it so important?

Nancy Guthrie (21:16)

Well, I think left on their own, maybe it's not totally on their own. Maybe it's because this is the example that we've set for them. Mostly kids, if you think about small children, they ask God for things and they thank God for things. And that's awesome. That's great. But once again, we want to expand their vocabulary for prayer. And you know, the Bible, it shows us all the different things that we can pray about and who we can pray for and what that might sound like. So in my little book, what Every Child Should Know About Prayer, I kind of went through different sections of the Bible. I looked at people who prayed and what they prayed for. You know, like Solomon praying for wisdom, to know right from wrong and, you know, various characters. We look at, at the Lord's Prayer and all of the things that the Lord's Prayer teaches us to pray, like to confess and. And to welcome his kingdom into the world and to forgive, to have what we need, you know, to forgive others. One of the most significant, significant, I think, for kids is to work through the Psalms. And what do the Psalms teach us about prayer? And so much of the Psalms is just telling God what we want and how we feel and what's hard. So I think to maybe introduce children to being the ability to just express our hearts and longings to God. And I mean, just by the way, isn't it a wonderful thing that we have this whole book that God has given us? He's given us the words to cry out to him and to complain to him and to ask him for what we want and then simply just some instructions the Bible gives us about prayer, about praying at any time and anywhere, and that simply it calls us to pray and keep on praying.

Courtney Docter (23:33)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (23:34)

So.

Courtney Docter (23:35)

And Jesus. And Jesus showed us, I mean, his own dement. I just even think about the prayer the night before he was crucified. And his begging of the Father to, if there was any way possible right, to take this suffering from him. And I mean, who hasn't prayed that Lord, please, like, take this from me. And I actually find so much comfort in the Lord's tender answer to his beloved son, the one whom he loved. And that the answer is clearly no. That, no, I'm. I won't remove this suffering from you because I'm doing something greater. And that just comforts me so much. And you know, even as you're talking, Nancy and Melissa, as you were asking the question about children learning to pray, I thought it's, I need to learn to pray. I mean, I am no different. I need those same instructions. And it is one reason. I know I've now mentioned this book three times, but I don't know if you remember, Nancy, when you first started writing it, you and I were talking about it. And I was so excited because I do think it's the, it's the one I keep holding up. I'm praying for you because it does give language. It's instructive. It, it shows us how to, you know, pray for more than just the change of the circumstances. Not less than, but more than. I've. I've been using a book called Piercing Heaven. It's Prayers of the Puritans for the last several years in my, just my morning time with the Lord. And it's given me new language to. In my prayers. And I just love that because we are, we are constantly needing to grow in, in our. Just the words and the way that we go about praying. So I just think it's so helpful. So thank you for providing that for us.

Melissa Krueger (25:28)

So here's my question on that for, and this is for both of you. Let's say someone has been praying for things for years. I mean, we all know there, there are deep things people have been praying for. I mean, the salvation of someone in their life. Yeah. I mean, these can go on for years. Yeah. Whether, especially when it's a family member or maybe a sit situation to change. Like, I, I have one friend. I mean, we, we were in a prayer triad for years and we were praying for one thing for it. It's just, it's been an ongoing struggle. It just hasn't ended. And I mean, years and years and years, I think we can get disheartened and we can maybe say, am I supposed to stop praying for this? Maybe God's not going to answer this. So should I just let it be? What would you Say to a woman who's going through that, like, who has this. This deeply, deep longing for a good thing. I mean, you know, some things we just know are good. Like someone coming to Jesus is a good thing. You can always pray that. How would you encourage a woman like that who's. Who's just like, I'm just. I can't. I'm almost scared to pray because it opens up hope and they're scared to hope anymore. How would you encourage that woman?

Nancy Guthrie (26:55)

Well, the only thing I can think of is what's been helping me recently with one of those kinds of things is how much just every interaction I have with the Scriptures in the various settings in which I am in. So if it's just, you know, something I'm reading online or it's the Sunday sermon, this is where it often is, or, you know, something I'm working on writing, whatever, wherever I am in the Scriptures, I look for something to be a starter for prayer. Okay. So, for example, last Sunday in church, our pastor was preaching from Psalm 40. And, you know, as I looked through this passage and I thought about the person I'm praying for to have, you know, new spiritual life here in Psalm 40, you know, was. He drew me up from the pit of destruction out of the miry bog and set my feet upon a rock. And just as I was sitting there in church, that became prayer.

Courtney Docter (28:10)

Yeah.

Nancy Guthrie (28:10)

Lord, would you make that this person's testimony at some point in his life that he could say, you drew me up out of this dark place, and blessed is the man who makes the Lord his trust, who does not turn to the proud, who does not go astray after a lie, you know, that gives me so much fodder.

Courtney Docter (28:33)

Right.

Nancy Guthrie (28:33)

To keep on praying. Right. Lord, this is the blessing that I want for this person that he would be able to say, I have made the Lord my trust and see as I do, that I just find new vigor in prayer.

Courtney Docter (28:50)

Right.

Nancy Guthrie (28:52)

And that he wouldn't grow astray after a lie. That gives me new specificity in prayer. So not this just general drawn to yourself and give a new spiritual life. Okay. Specifically, Lord, you know, help this person to see the lies that he's believing in. Those are the kinds of things that help me to persevere in prayer.

Courtney Docter (29:16)

Well, Nancy, and I'm going to answer that question, too, but before I do, I want to ask you, because even as you're talking about that praying scripture, you were so clear in saying it was instructive and it gave you new vigor in prayer. Prayer. But I Think a lot of times we think it's kind of magical to use, like, scripture in our prayers. And so how would you talk about that? Like, is there, is it more powerful to pray God's word back to him than it is to just use our words? Or what is the. What is the place of scripture in our.

Nancy Guthrie (29:47)

I think it has to be either or. First of all, I would say. But the way I quite often think about this is when. When we think about our relationship with other people. Now, you guys are my friends, and you would never do this, but so. But certainly there would be some people in our lives that they're talk. You know, you're talking and you sense they're not even really listening to you because they just. They have something they want to say. And that when you finish talking, they start talking. And like, it had nothing to do with what you had been saying. And so, I mean, there's no real relationship there. Right. And I just think so often that's how we interact with God. He's speaking, We're. We're hearing His Word. And maybe it's in the Sunday sermon like it was for me, or, you know, just doing our. A daily time in the Word. We're like, okay, check that box now. Okay. Now here's my prayer list, Lord, here's. Now I want to talk to you. That was really important to me, you know, and it has no connection to what he has been saying.

Courtney Docter (30:59)

That is the best analogy I have ever heard for that. I love that. Because we've all know what that's like.

Nancy Guthrie (31:06)

Yeah, all know what that's on both.

Courtney Docter (31:08)

Sides of that equation. Right. I've been the person that it's happened to, but I have been the person that's done it. And so, you know, like, we know there's a breakdown. Yes. And so that. Not respond. Responding to what God is saying through his living, active word is just like that. That's.

Nancy Guthrie (31:26)

And can I also make an application for this for our group Bible studies? Because I, I think about, you know, the typical group Bible study this happens, doesn't it? Like, we, we. We. We work our way through whatever the passage is for that day. And then we say, okay, what are your prayer requests? And, you know, what do we need to pray about? And it becomes all about, you know, my kid making the basketball team and the trip I'm taking. Right. It's. It's all so removed from what we've been studying. And, and, you know, if we've been studying a passage like Psalm 40, shouldn't our prayers, even in that group setting, be. It begins, I waited patiently for the Lord. So, hey, group, in what way? What are you waiting for that you're not waiting patiently for? In what way or what do you want to pray to him using the last verse of that passage, you are my help and my deliverer. Do not delay. Oh, my God. Let's pray about those things together in a way that's responsive to what God has said, rather than, yeah, God said that. Okay, now I'm gonna talk to him about what's really important to me.

Melissa Krueger (32:52)

I think that is just that picture of depth we want to move toward the scriptures, unite you just so differently, rather than like, somebody. Aunt's cat, that sometimes that comes up and I'm sorry, if your cat is sick and it's your aunts, we will pray.

Courtney Docter (33:09)

I've just lost one of my cats, so be careful. No, we will pray. But.

Melissa Krueger (33:13)

But that question, Nancy, is so different. What are you desperately waiting on? Well, I. I just think it's gonna. If we're willing to go there. The. That's how the Word directs us with one another, to go to these different places of saying, yeah, will you pray? This is really the thing.

Nancy Guthrie (33:31)

I have to make a confession here, though. Okay.

Melissa Krueger (33:33)

Okay.

Nancy Guthrie (33:34)

Sometimes in my small group, there has been a discussion that intersects, and I feel relieved we're not gonna pray about it. You know, I mean, that should be a red light to me, but. Because I'm like, I think I'd rather just keep it real shallow and, you know, pray for traveling mercies. Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah. But so, I mean, maybe, you know, it can be like a red warning light, like, oh, there was that. But I really don't want that to. I. I don't want that to mess with me.

Courtney Docter (34:13)

Well, when the Word is piercing the heart and dividing bone and marrow, like, it's. I. Yeah, you're right. I don't always want to enter into that space. But, you know, I'm even thinking as we're having this conversation on prayer, I hope that anybody who's listening, that's a small group leader, will take this as a way of moving your small group towards. Because even if you know Nancy and hire in your small group and we're not wanting to. To pray that way, praise God that somebody's leading us towards that and to look for ways to. To have what you're studying, cultivate prayer in you. What a beautiful thing.

Melissa Krueger (34:50)

And Courtney, maybe even just a pause after we read our Bible privately and say, lord, who do you want me to pray for this for today, like, I do. Nancy. It's just like you say. I come with my list. Do I ever. Like, who Lord, should I pray for today according to your word? Who's like, will you bring to mind, you know, Holy Spirit, bring to mind right now who maybe I've forgotten to pray for for the past three weeks that said I'd pray for? Like, will you bring to mind that. That's just such a good word for me. I mean, I'm going to take that tomorrow and I'm gonna. That's gonna be a new prayer I hadn't thought about. Like, this is so sad. Let me know.

Nancy Guthrie (35:28)

You could pray more today, Melissa.

Melissa Krueger (35:30)

No, it's only. Only at certain times am I allowed to pray, Nancy. Okay. Okay. I didn't know we're gonna be convict. Melissa.

Courtney Docter (35:42)

Melissa. We're gonna stay on afterwards and have a little, you know, y'all can pray for me. Yeah, well, we will be. And I've got a whole book that shows me how to do it. Oh, my word. Okay. Well, obviously a rich and convicting and helpful conversation, which is literally what we were praying for. That is not to sound super spiritual, but we actually were praying that this conversation, it's our prayer for the podcast, that it will be helpful on topics that really matter. And I can't think of many that matter more than prayer. And, Nancy, as is so typical of you, you have pointed us again and again, not just to the Lord, but to His Word and how that is what can instruct us in knowing him and knowing how to. To talk with Him. And so want to thank you for being a part. A big part of the deep dish. And what we like to do is we like to ask our guests a fun question. We want you to give us the deep dish. And so I want to. I want to know if the answer to this is going to surprise me, but I want to know what Nancy Guthrie does for fun.

Nancy Guthrie (36:56)

The answer is not going to surprise you.

Courtney Docter (37:00)

Okay.

Nancy Guthrie (37:01)

Because you've done it with me more than once.

Melissa Krueger (37:04)

I know.

Courtney Docter (37:04)

I think you called me the other day from it. Did you? Is that it? No. Am I picking something else? What did you do? Yes.

Nancy Guthrie (37:12)

I love to walk in the park near my house. It feeds my soul. Both Melissa and Courtney have been with me to that park. And what you know is even though it's in the middle of the city, you just feel like. Like you're in the Smoky Mountains or.

Courtney Docter (37:26)

Oh, it's not a park. It's. I mean, it is, but it's like.

Nancy Guthrie (37:29)

People picture differently than a trail. Yes, exactly.

Courtney Docter (37:33)

A mountain.

Nancy Guthrie (37:34)

Yeah, exactly.

Courtney Docter (37:35)

Yes.

Nancy Guthrie (37:35)

And, Courtney, you also met one time at a place like, we walked to a waterfall.

Courtney Docter (37:41)

How cool was that on your birthday day?

Melissa Krueger (37:44)

I know.

Nancy Guthrie (37:46)

Yeah. I mean, that feeds my soul. I love to walk. And, you know, I get to travel to a lot of places to speak, and nothing makes me happier than to, you know, be somewhere and find a beautiful walk and there to enjoy the beauty of nature. It just. It feeds my soul. So, you know, when somebody will contact me, you know, can we get together for coffee? I'm like, nope. For one thing, I don't drink, Alvi. But the other thing is, like, you know, meet me at the park and we'll. We'll go for a walk. And so that makes me pretty happy.

Courtney Docter (38:22)

I love that. Well, Nancy, thank you for joining us and friends with you. Oh, gosh, this is so fun. So fun to do it with you. I know. Yeah. Everybody else, y'all can just stop. They'll just slowly stop recording, but we'll just stay on and keep talking. But. But before you all. Before they stop recording, I do want to say for all of our friends and people listening, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. We hope it has been encouraging and helpful, and if you have found it so, then we would invite you to like it, to share it, and to subscribe to future editions of the Deep Dish.