Megan Hill (4:33)

Yeah. Well, you have this group of people that you expect better of, I think. I think that's kind of what it is you expect. Oh, these are people whose lives have been transformed by Christ. These are people who want to be like Jesus. These are people who know what it means to live like Jesus, and yet they're not really living up to that. And so we sort of expect better.

Courtney Docter (4:58)

Oh, that's true. You know, I probably should have started just by asking. Let's just define. Let's just define what church hurt is. And so, Megan, would you kick that off for us?

Megan Hill (5:08)

Yeah. And you guys can chime in as there are things that occur to you, but it seems to me that fundamentally it is times when we have either been sinned against or failed by the people in the church. So, you know, sometimes it's really intentional sinning against, you know, somebody who gossips about you or slanders you or, you know, a pastor who is abusive or, you know, really hard, intentional things. But sometimes it can be hurts Just by people failing, just even human weakness, even. They're not noticing you. They're not including you. They're not. And it's not necessarily malicious on their part, but that doesn't mean it's not super hurtful at the same time.

Melissa Krueger (5:57)

That's really a good way to distinguish it. I like that. Like, active hurt versus. I mean, you know, in our Presbyterian parlance, we would say sins of omission and sins of commission. And I think we all have experienced that, you know, just at some level in the church, every one of us kind of wondering. I mean, I remember some friend, you know, she was like, yeah, I missed four weeks in a row. And I don't think anyone noticed that kind of just omission. No one. No one reached out to me to say anything. And then yet other people have experienced true active sinning against. And I can think of one thing I've heard my husband talk about, Mike say. And he said it's one thing, like, if you were walking down the street and someone attacked you, some random person, we'd all be like, oh, that's so horrible that this person just randomly attacked you. But, you know, if you said, yeah, I was walking down the street and my dad attacked me, there's something more painful about that because we expect the church to be a family, you know, and it's like coming home and no one says hi to you when you get home from school one day, like, that feels more egregious than just some random person. Cause we really. We all believe in the church, like, as the people of God, as the family of God. We actually believe in it so much that when it fails, it hurts.

Courtney Docter (7:26)

I think, yeah, that's good. It's the family. And I think that we, deep in our souls, know that this is meant to be. Everything that God's word says about it, everything that God's word says is true about the church. That it is. That it is our family, that these are our spiritual mothers and brothers and sisters. And now I'm confusing all of my different family members. But, you know, they're all in there, and we know that, and it is more personal, and it does hurt more. And I just find that really helpful to think about the things that are omitted versus the things that are committed. And, yeah, I think we've all experienced both of those.

Megan Hill (8:03)

And.

Courtney Docter (8:04)

But, you know, just even, like, looking at the word, like, we are shocked and surprised at church hurt. I think every time. I think every time, because of these expectations, because of what we know, the church is Supposed to be because we love the church. And, and hopefully, if you're listening, you love the church. It is God's idea. It is a. It is a beautiful place and it is where we're supposed to belong. But. But we're. We're shocked. We're surprised. And part of that, I think is good because our expectation of church is probably. Is probably pretty good and. Right. But God is not shocked. And there are many examples in scripture of some real life examples of the church hurting people in Scripture. So, Megan, can you talk about a few of those?

Megan Hill (8:48)

Yeah. One of the ones that I often go to is the Apostle Paul in the end of two Timothy. Um, Paul is in prison. This was like his last letter, we think that he wrote, right. And he was in this Roman prison. And at the very end of that letter, he says, at my last, my first offense, no one came and stood by me. All deserted me. And so here we have the great Apostle Paul, who was, you know, a pastor to so many and spiritual father to so many. And here he was in this Roman prison, and none of the Christians showed up to support him. And, you know, if any of you would think, well, somebody would show up for anybody, it would be the Apostle Paul, right? So we have examples like that, but then we have, you know, just sort of, once you start looking through the scriptures, you see examples of how real the Bible is all over the place. You know, David, in one of his psalms, he talks about being wounded by the friend who went up with him to worship, sort of to what Melissa says. He said, you know, he. If it had been some random pagan. That hurt me. No, no, that wouldn't have bothered me. But it was my friend, the one who I used to take counsel together with in the house of God, that was the person who wounded me. I always think of Hannah, you know, when she came to the temple, to the, you know, the. The tabernacle, the place of meeting where she was and was just brokenhearted about her infertility and was praying to the Lord. And Eli, who is meant to be the spiritual leader, who is the priest in that place. He's not sympathetic to her. He assumes that she's drunk. He calls her out for being drunk. You know, that's a kind of church hurt too, when people assume the worst of you. At a very. For Hannah, that was a very low part of her life. So, I don't know. I mean, we could go on and on. I'm sure you guys have examples, too. But as you go through scripture, you see again and Again, that the Lord is very honest about how hard it can be to be part of his people.

Melissa Krueger (10:55)

That's really good. Because also in second Timothy, he talks about Demas, Demas. Demas. How do we say it? Demas. I think Demas, okay. You know, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone, you know, I mean, he had deserted him, you know, so that's just another. And seemed to desert the faith. It seems like in the. In the bigger picture. But I also think it's in Acts, when we see this, this verse. I'm just going to read. Read this because I have found particular, I think, encouragement while this is a discouraging passage, an encouragement that it's not new. So that this was happening in the first century church, you know, where they had the tongues of fire and the Holy Spirit came down. You know, that church still struggled with this. And so that's helpful for me. Like, it's not, oh, the church today has gone rogue or bad. This was happening in the early church. And so I find a little bit of comfort in this warning. It says, pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseas to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And from your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore, be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. So here's this warning that comes in. This is Acts 20, so. So preparing you to be on alert that all might not be right, that some people are going to come in falsely to Christian community and use it for their own good, or try to basically take away disciples for themselves. And there are other passages that talk about men who were greedy for gain going after, you know, the people of God. And we see that, right? I mean, we. We see plenty of prosperity preachers who are clearly just trying to get people's money and not really love and shepherd the people of God. But I find this actually encouraging that they were being warned in the early church. What about you, Courtney? Are there any verses or anything?

Courtney Docter (13:19)

You know, I was even. Well, I was super encouraged by what you were mentioning about David and just kind of the, you know, the shock that he felt of, like the pain of a. Of a brother and being hurt by that. But I also think about. About Philippians 4 too, where, you know, they're called out yodia Yodia and Syntyche and they're called out for disagreeing in the Lord. And I'm kind of like, okay, so if you were one of them, like what would that have felt like? But if you were in the church with them, right, and you were just kind of frustrated with like their constant bickering because that's clearly what was going on. Like they just could not agree and it must have been pretty public and what that's like. And then to kind of became public.

Melissa Krueger (14:01)

It'S like, thanks Paul.

Courtney Docter (14:03)

Right. But then, but the Lord, you know, we know that all scripture is God breathed. And so the Lord is like, yeah, I'm calling my people to like to move together now. These words are very different than what you were just talking about, Melissa. So you're talking about wolves and false teachers and you're talking, you know, about like when the pain comes from an abusive power versus like being hurt by one another. And those are, they're just all like in this big picture of church hurt. But they are very different when power is involved. Obviously that is going to be, that is, that is going to be church hurt. That, that goes in towards abuse. And it's a, it's a different type of hurt versus, like, I think I'm just still really stuck on the omission and commission because I think that that's really helpful. I have a good friend a, who she joined a church and she was not kind of what you were saying, Megan. Like she was never invited to small groups. She was never reached out to for women's Bible study. She was sort of in that post college age group. But then the first time the director of women's initiatives reached our women's ministry, reached out to her. She said, would you be able to babysit for one of our, you know, small groups? And she just like this young woman woman was just so hurt by that because she was like, I'm not being seen as a, as a woman. And so we're just kind of testifying to like the, the spectrum and the range of, of church hurts. They just come in many shapes and sizes in many different ways. But I think that when we're hurt, no matter how, you know, what is hurting us, most of our instincts are to run in the other direction as fast as we can. Even me, who I tend to have more of a fight complex than a flight complex, but the light even in that we just want to, we just want to run the other way. But when it comes to church and church hurt, how can we resist that? Instinct. Why should we resist that instinct? And what would you say to someone who. Who wonders why in the world she should continue to go to the very place that she was hurt?

Megan Hill (16:18)

Yeah, I think that's a really. I mean, that's probably the nugget of the question, right, that most people come to at some experience of hurt, like, why should I keep sticking with this? And this is a different question. I think we're going to maybe talk about this later about whether that particular church is one that you should stay in or not. But I think what you're asking here, Courtney, is just sort of why stick with church in general, whether that's that particular church or whether it's finding another church, you know, And I definitely think that in Scripture we see that the answer is to keep sticking with the church. And I think we see that from no one less than Christ himself, really, which can be such a sweet encouragement to us, right, that Christ came for his people and he suffered so much at their hands. Right. He was in his earthly ministry. He was misunderstood. People followed him. Then they didn't follow him at, you know, at the week of his crucifixion, you know, his disciples were largely nowhere to be found and denied even knowing Him. And he suffered so much. And yet Scripture tells us, right. Having loved his own, he loved them to the end. And so he even stuck with the church. And I think we see also in Scripture that he stuck with the church because he has a vision of the church's future. And he knows that, as Ephesians says, he's going to present her to himself in glorious splendor. And so one day the church is going to be better than she is now. And so he's sticking with her with that future vision in mind. And so I think that can encourage us. Christ as our example. Yes, but also that is Christ's power in us, that comforts us in that hurt, you know, that. That Christ has walked through those hurts. And he's. He's dwelling in us by his spirit. And so he can minister his comfort. He can give us his strength to keep showing up even when it's hard. And he can give us that vision that, you know, by his spirit, like this church isn't what she's going to be one day. Like, hold on, hold on. I'm. I'm at work here. And it's going to be better. It's going to get better. Just stick with it.

Melissa Krueger (18:31)

I think that's such a good point that you said about Jesus's experience, because we can go one of two ways with church hurt. We can think, what was I doing wrong? And maybe why no one invited me over. And there's always a good point for self reflection for any of us, like, well, maybe, yeah, but, you know, or we can just think it's all their fault or whatever. And I had nothing to do with this. But what we see in the life of Jesus, who clearly was doing everything right, so to speak, he faced opposition all the time. So the religious leaders constantly oppressing him. But then, you know, even his most intimate group, we have Judas. And I always think of this as so painful with Judas because even the method of betrayal was a kiss. A kiss. This is the most intimate of gestures. And it was completely devoid of affection. And that had to be painful. This is someone Jesus had let into his inner circle. He had just offered communion, you know, the Last Supper, knowing that he was going to betray him. But then all the 11, it says all of them abandoned him in this moment. So he was left alone in a lot of ways. And yet he kept coming back. And I love when he is speaking to the women at the tomb, he says, go tell my disciples. And Peter, it's this reaching out to the one he knew, probably felt the weight of his betrayal. Oh, no, Jesus, I'll never deny you. And he's like, you're going to deny me three times? And then it's like, and Peter, make sure Peter knows he's still mine. And so he demonstrated this love for his people that did not waver even when their faith did. And I think it's such an example for us to follow that, yeah, people are actually going to really hurt us in the church at times. But if we follow the way of Christ, we're going to keep extending that grace as he did to us in so many ways. And we will all do that to one another. Let me ask you this question. When you've experienced church hurt in different ways, and this could be for either of you in different ways, how have you seen healing come? Yeah, I mean, one thing I love, Jackie Hill Perry, A friend of all of ours said, she said, do you know what God used to heal my church? Hurt the church?

Courtney Docter (21:02)

That's exactly what.

Melissa Krueger (21:03)

I always love that. I think of that so much. You know, it's like, oh, the very thing that felt like it hurt me is the very thing that healed me. So how if someone right now is in that place? You know, I was talking to a friend recently and some things had gone on in her church. And she said, I just don't want to go to church right now. What encouragement, maybe, would you give her to. How do we. How do we find healing? How do we. How do we walk through that process?

Courtney Docter (21:30)

I do think it's exactly what you said. I think the people of God help heal the people of God. And there's something that happens in corporate worship when we gather together that is meant to happen. We're meant to be able to look around my. I had an Old Testament professor, and in our class on the Psalms, he would say, this is what happened when they corporately sang the psalms together as God's people. Is they would. Because the Psalms convey such a variety of experiences and emotions and circumstances. And what they could do is stand there and maybe they were not in a situation of despair or lament. Maybe they were not crying out Psalm 44, you know, why are you cast down, oh, my soul? You know, put your hope in God like this, crying out to be able to trust in God again. Maybe they were more in. Is it Psalm 46? That's like, you are my refuge and my strength. But they could stand there and they could look at their friend who's crying out in desperation, and they could sing the psalm of why are you cast down, oh my soul? For that person. And then the person who's cast down could cry out and sing. They could look at their friend who was walking in strength and. And. And healing and victory, and they could sing, you know, you are my refuge and my rock and my strength, you know, and, you know, who shall I fear? Whom shall I fear? I was getting my prepositions all mixed up there. Whom shall I fear? But we can, you know, we have to know what other people are walking through in order to do that. And so when we're doing life together, we actually can sing on behalf of those around us. And I have a friend that we talk about right now. Like, I hold hope for each other, like when the other one cannot hope. I mean, we'll text each other. I'm holding hope for you because. Because I think that's what the. The people of God are supposed to do. Megan, what would you say?

Megan Hill (23:34)

Yeah, I think that's so good. And I think in. In another aspect, like our praying for one another, you know, the church is where we're praying for each other and we're, you know, even just the words of the Lord's Prayer, you know, lead us not into temptation and deliver us from the evil one. And we're together, Lord, we are about to fall into sin in so many different ways, each one of us. And, but, but we're crying out to the Lord together. We need help not to sin against each other even. And we need help to resist the evil one and to, to, to glorify you and to do your will. And, and so when, even when we come together, like you said in singing, when we come together in prayer, when we sit together under God's word, when the pastor is preaching God's word or God's word is read out, then it falls on all of us. And then we're all held to see the loveliness of Christ. We're held to see our sin. We're held to see the remedy for our sin all together. And, and, and then the Lord sanctifies us in that.

Courtney Docter (24:36)

Well, this might be a good time for us to take a little break to hear a word from our sponsor. But when we come back, I want to ask a really hard question, and that is, is there ever a time to leave a church over being hurt? So let's take a break. Be back in a minute. Well, welcome back. We hope you are finding help and hope in this conversation on church hurt. And like I said, I am now going to ask, and I, I'm glad that I'm the one asking it because it means I don't have to answer it. So we are going to be asking, Megan, is there ever a time that it is okay to leave a church when you've been hurt? And if so, how do we discern that?

Megan Hill (25:18)

Okay, so I'm going to read from Acts 15. And in Acts 15, we read, Now, Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark, but Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. And there arose sharp disagreement, so they separated from each other. So you have Barnabas on one side who says, let's take John Mark with us. You have Paul on the other side who says, actually, John Mark has kind of betrayed the cause of Christ here. He, he really didn't. Maybe it's one of those sins of omission. He didn't do what we asked him to do or what we were supposed to do. Didn't seem wholehearted about the faith. I don't think we should take him. And so Barnabas and Paul are disagreeing. The scripture doesn't even tell us really who was right. The scripture makes no judgment. This is a narrative passage of Scripture, and they're just telling us what happened. Um, so. But in the end, they went separate Ways they didn't go together. Um, Barnabas went one way and Paul went the other way. And I think this can be. Again, it's a narrative passage of Scripture. There's not, you know, sort of didactic lessons tied up in a neat bow at the end. But I think this passage can help us to think through this issue. I think, first of all, it acknowledges that sometimes there are really sharp disagreements in the church. Sometimes they're even about things that it's not totally clear. We can't point to which number commandment John Mark was breaking and what should happen here. But there. There was a genuine disagreement, even of conviction. Barnabas felt the Lord would not have them do this. Paul felt the Lord would help have them do this. So I think we see that there can be, and the scripture calls it a sharp disagreement. So it, I mean, it was really heartfelt. And the result of it was that they went separate ways and that, I don't know that we can tell from Scripture. You know, the scripture's not saying that's ideal. The scripture's also not saying it's forbidden either. And we can see later, um, later in Scripture, then John, Mark and Paul are reconciled. They come back around and Paul says how useful he's been. And so that situation is repaired. But for the time, for the sake of the ministry, it does seem like it was the best of the options for them to part ways.

Courtney Docter (27:45)

And it didn't discredit either of them from ministry, did it?

Megan Hill (27:48)

Right. Yeah. The elders didn't get together and go, well, since you left, then you can't be in the ministry anymore. So I think on the strength of that, you know, we can learn something from this passage. And I do think so. So this brings me to. I do think that sometimes there are times when you have a. You cannot continue in ministry with someone for some reason or other, and that that is okay to leave. Now, how do you decide when that is? Well, I think you need real life people in your real life life to tell you when that is. And so I can't stress enough the importance of having mature Christian friends. Usually that's going to be somebody in a different church who can kind of look at your situation with a little bit more objective eyes. I mean, depending on what it is, you know, it may be sort of a minor disagreement with somebody, and there may be somebody in your church who can help you think through it, but it's probably gonna be somebody who's not in your church who is a mature Christian who can say to you, okay, I know you, Megan. I know your church. I can see what's going on here, and this is my counsel to you. And the scripture says in a multitude of counselors, there's wisdom. And so as more than one wise and godly person to help you pray through and think through that. So I think some. Some of the legitimate reasons for leaving a church are that it's unsafe for some reason, you know, that. That there is sin that is happening there that is not safe for people to be around, and you need to leave. And I think that's pretty clear in Scripture, that we have a six commandment, responsibility to protect our own life and the life of others and to protect our, you know, safety. And so I think that's a reason that you would leave. I think if there is teaching in your church that is not in accord with scripture and you have done, you know, it's not a slip of the tongue of the pastor on one Sunday, you know, I mean, we all, on this podcast, we've all said things that we've said, oh, that wasn't exactly how I would have raised that if I could have plotted that out. Exactly.

Melissa Krueger (29:54)

Especially on difficult topics like Trinitary, you.

Megan Hill (29:57)

Know, you're like, oh, is it right to say it that way?

Melissa Krueger (30:01)

And you're like, okay, he's not a heretic, because he, you know, got the Incarnation a little bit messed up on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah.

Megan Hill (30:10)

But if your church is. The teaching of your church is on a course that is not biblical, then you need to go somewhere where it is biblical. And so. And I also think. And the third category that I would give, and I'm sure that there are others, but the third category I would give would be just your own convictions. I mean, as we grow and mature in the Christian faith, you may have thought one way about baptism earlier in your life, and now you think something different, or you may have thought one way, you know, about, you know, how the Lord's table should be presented and, you know, whatever. I mean, we just. We do change in our convictions as well. And I think as much as possible, you want to be at a church that, you know, is. Is aligned with your conviction so that you can wholeheartedly participate in that ministry. And so you may leave not because of a, you know, sort of personal disagreement, but just, hey, this is not where my convictions are anymore.

Melissa Krueger (31:03)

That's a really good point, because I think we often leave over what are called disputable matters. Yeah. Whereas then we have this passage that says the acts of the sinful nature are obvious, you know, and so I think that is a helpful thing to discern, like, what's a disputable matter? Now, that still might be a reason for us not to be in a particular church. That's fine. But when it gets to, like, you know, the acts of the sinful nature are obvious, there are certain churches, I think we would all say, okay, they're actually celebrating sin. And that, I. I would say, is a wrong use of the pulpit, you know, if we're saying certain behaviors are okay. And I actually think that's not. That's a wolf, you know, looking like, oh, I'm going to shepherd in this way. But that can cause a lot of harm, actually. And so there are definite reasons like that. I, you know, I agree, but a lot of these things are in these disputable matters. And, you know, maybe we don't like how small groups are set up and we feel like it oversees us and things like that. That could be to work through. Because I think of the two women in Philippians, and I would say their names, so I can only pronounce one of them. So I'm just going to say the two women in Philippians. Paul. Paul actually says, y' all need to agree in the Lord. And, you know, it's nice he's outside the church. And sometimes I think someone can look into our situation and say, hey, you guys need to work that out. Y' all can work that out. You're both, you. You know, and he. He dignifies both of them. He says, they've labored side by side with me in the gospel. You know, he loves these women and he's like, get along.

Courtney Docter (32:39)

Yeah, no, that's so good. So let me ask you then, if that's the nature of our hurt, that if it's with somebody else in the church and we just have been in a disagreement and we don't like the way they've done things, and we're just. We're just, you know, that's the nature of our hurt. Then how can we pray for ourselves in that situation? And how. How can we pray for them in that situation? So, again, we're just acknowledging there are different. There's a whole gamut of types of church hurt. So we're talking about this where it's like person to person, you and somebody else in the church. There's not really a power dynamic involved. How do you pray for that person?

Megan Hill (33:12)

Okay, so one of my secret things is I envision what people would be like in heaven, and then I pray for them to that end, you know, and like, if somebody who's a really, like, strong personality, well, that can really rub you the wrong way, right? But I imagine that in heaven, like, they're gonna be right at the front worshiping the Lord and just really, you know, doing great things for the Lord. And so I like, pray for that sanctified version of the thing that frustrates me or the person who is, you know, always flaking out on something and I can't depend on them. And they are never where they're supposed to be, you know, And I think, well, but that's because they're so distracted with all these needs and they're like, really at heart, they're a loving person. And so I pray for them to be like the sanctified version of what the thing is that bothers me. And if I can envision them as like the. The best version of the thing that bugs me, then it helps me to know how to pray for them.

Courtney Docter (34:10)

This is just one reason it's so good to be a friend of Megan Hill's, right? I mean, that just like, is so encouraging to know that, you know, that you would pray for me in that way and that you would pray for people that have hurt you and that. Well, maybe that's. Maybe that's me. But I just like the fact that you would pray for people in that way. And I think even going back to what you said at the beginning, that we would pray the same thing for the church as a whole, that we would pray that she would be everything, you know, this washed and beautiful bride of Christ. Because I think so often about. I think so often that Jesus is betrothed to a not attractive, not kind, not patient, not all the things like that's who he's betrothed to. And yet one day she's going to be this incredibly beautiful inside and out bride. So I like that. Praying for what we all. For what we all will be.

Melissa Krueger (35:10)

And I, I think on that prayer thing too, just to remember if we've been hurt by someone's sin, you know, I think of like something like gossip or something like that. Look, it's never going to go well for that person, you know, that's not. They're getting a false intimacy with others by their gossip or whatever they're doing. So really praying for their good, which is that they would come to a repentance heart on. Some things like, I so often just want to sit in judgment. Well, if she keeps acting like that, it's going to be you know, she's going to keep offending everybody, you know, whatever, rather than do the work of prayer. And like, I just realized, oh, I might call one of you and say, hey, I can just, you know what, can you believe she does this? Or whatever, which is just judgment rather than, you know, we all have places that we are weak and that sympathetic, you know, Lord, will you change her in this? I don't know what the best method would be for her life, but that she would find freedom in this area. I, I think that's a. We can do that with humility and not with judgment. It can sound like we're judging someone else, but I do think there's a real humility to say, like, I know I need to be changed, but it's okay to say too. I really see this pattern in this person's life and to just prayerfully ask that the Lord would change it. And sometimes if we've been the one directly hurt, we're not necessarily the best one to confront that. Sometimes we might be called to, but, you know, if it depends on where we are in that situation. But, but I do think really praying for change, the Lord, the Holy Spirit can do that. I think we can buy into the world's theories a little too much of, oh, people are going to be who they are, you know, And I'm like, no, we. I hope not. I Hope I'm in 10 years less of the bad things in my character and being changed into the likeness of Christ more. So I think we can pray for hope that situations and relationships would be restored as, as we walk together in these things, for sure.

Courtney Docter (37:24)

Well, I want to ask a question about kind of the other side of the spectrum as we're looking at really grievous, grievously being sinned against or when there's been abuse in the church, when there's been, you know, power is involved in the hurt. And there is so much in the Psalms about vindication and the surety of God's justice, even when it's delayed. And so for people who have walked in the. The area of church hurt that touches on abuse and sin, how do those verses, how do they comfort us and how do they strengthen us and how do they give us words to pray? So I love what you said about praying for just other people that have offended and hurt us, but how do we pray for those who have, like, grievously sinned against us?

Megan Hill (38:10)

Yeah, I mean, I do think you're right that the Scriptures promise of justice is so encouraging to Us. And, you know, I think we have the, the promise from God's word that every sin is dealt with. There is no sin ever committed in the history of mankind that is not dealt with. Some of them are punished in eternity. Some of them are laid on Christ. And we might not know, you know, especially when you're talking about church hurt, you don't always know. You think, well, this person says they're Christian, they're not acting very Christianly, you know, and, and we don't, we don't know. And it's not our job to figure that out. And yet we know, okay, but every sin that has been sinned against me will be dealt with. Either if this person is a believer, then it means that their sin has been laid on Christ and Christ has paid for it, or if they're not a believer, then they will one day be held account. Held to account for it. And it has been really freeing to me in my own life to go, okay, Lord, you know, but I trust that you are going to deal with this and that there will be justice for this thing. And I can leave it to you to know, which is the way that you're dealing with it. But, but I can trust that you will deal with it. Which doesn't mean, you know, I mean, there are avenues for addressing it in this life. And you know, there in. When it's a case of abuse, there's the civil magistrate, when it's some other issue, there are, you know, you can go to the church leaders, you can, you know, there are, there's Matthew 18. I mean, there's, there's things that we can do in this life. But ultimately, my hope is, Lord, you, you, you bring justice for every sin. And so you can, I trust that you'll deal with it.

Courtney Docter (39:57)

Well, that's so good. And as we're kind of bringing this conversation to the CLO to a close, you know, we said at the beginning that we were hoping that whether you are somebody who has been hurt by the church or you're walking with somebody who has been hurt by the church, that this would provide some maybe practical help and healing and just perspective. And so, Megan, I'm just so grateful for just the way you love the church and the way you've thought about the church and the way you lift our eyes to see the church again. And, you know, we just want to reiterate like there is a spectrum of hurt and there's no way that we addressed every single piece and so, and so to even stop and think about where Your hurt resides. And if it does reside in the abuse, in the abuse realm, then yes, you absolutely need to seek help outside of this. But we do hope that everybody would be, would have been reminded that the church is God's idea. It is, it is what he's coming back with. For it is the church that he loves and it is the church that he wants his people to love. So can we just end with some? Well then I'll end, end. This is the first ending. The second ending, Megan, will be a question I ask you. But this first ending, can you guys share some scriptures that have either helped you or somebody that you've been walking with through church Hurt?

Melissa Krueger (41:22)

I like this. It's like first breakfasts and second breakfast.

Courtney Docter (41:25)

Exactly, exactly.

Melissa Krueger (41:27)

First ending and second ending.

Courtney Docter (41:29)

Exactly.

Melissa Krueger (41:29)

Thank you.

Megan Hill (41:31)

So mine would be Psalm 34:18 and I'll just read it here. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. And I think when you're hurt, sometimes you need a little verse. You don't need a whole chapter of the Bible, you just need a little verse and to remember that scripture says that the Lord is near to the brokenhearted and that he saves the crushed in spirit, that we're not invisible to him when we're hurt, that he doesn't ignore us, but in fact in. And he's not afraid of us or sort of, oh, let me keep my distance. He's near. He seeks out. He. He comes close to people who are brokenhearted and it's hopeful, right? He saves the Christian spirit. He has good, positive, saving redeeming purposes even for those who are crushed.

Melissa Krueger (42:17)

I love that. And Psalm 34 is the verse we're memorizing through Savor. If anyone needs our newsletter. What one that I know for me was actually really powerful during a really painful season was Isaiah 58:11. And I love this verse because it says in the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire and scorch places and make your bones strong. And you will be like a well watered garden, like a spring of water whose waters do not flow fail. And so I, I love this image of these scorched places. And yet you're in the midst of it and you're, you're, you become the spring in this dry and barren and scorched place. Because I mean, I think we can say anyone who's been through church hurt, it feels like, you know, everything is burnt to the ground sometimes. Like sometimes especially for those in ministry. We didn't get to that specifically, but all of us have been in ministry and sometimes you feel like, oh, this was all going so well, and then why would this happen? And so I love, I love this reminder that even in these dark, scorched places, the Lord is guiding us continually, that we think, how can this be part of it? But he's always at work, and I think that is something we can cling to. If you're experiencing church hurt, it doesn't mean the church is wrong. It's the best institution on the planet. It means the people who are in it are sometimes wrong. And so we can still cling to the truth of this is the bride of Christ. This is this, this bride's going to be made beautiful one day. She might not be now, but there's still it's the most hopeful place we can belong. It is the family of God. And so we cannot dismay because the Lord's doing something that, you know, he's leading his people.

Courtney Docter (44:12)

That's so good and so encouraging. Megan, we just thank you so much for joining us on the Deep Dish. So the last, last question we have for you today is what do you most look forward to on Sunday mornings when you head out to church?

Megan Hill (44:28)

On Sunday mornings when I head out to church, I most look forward to praying with God's people. I just the idea that we are all going to come together and we're going to storm the gates of heaven and we're going to hold the line for our brothers and sisters around the world, world, and we're going to beg the Lord for things that he's promised to do and he says he's going to hear us. And yeah, the corporate prayers, the prayers of God's people are my favorite thing.

Melissa Krueger (44:56)

Oh, I love that.

Courtney Docter (44:57)

Well, now we're going to be storming the gates of heaven with the petition that God will heal all of those who have been hurt by the church that he loves. So, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you know somebody who would be helped by it, please share it like and subscribe. And we will see you next time.

Melissa Krueger (45:22)

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, and updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.