Courtney Docter (3:23)

Yeah. So go back and listen to that episode. It's called Conversations with God. And I loved it. I was so encouraged and helped as Nancy was talking, as. As per usual. But our goal today is not to be either leg realistic or prescriptive about what your prayer life should look like. And neither Melissa nor I would claim to be the examples in any way. But what we do want to do is just talk about what we've learned over the years of praying and what has worked for us, which might or might not work for you. And so. So we just want to, just like you said, get in the weeds. Get in the weeds. Get on the dance floor. I love that. I love the balcony dance floor. Metaph. So. So we're going to just talk about doing this thing that is such an integral part of the Christian life. So I want to start by asking you, Melissa, where and when do you pray?

Melissa Krueger (4:21)

Probably the most regular place of prayer for me is my back porch. You sat with me on my back porch, and there is something about it that it's just relaxing to me. It's the place where I go every morning with my tea and I sit out there and I read my Bible and I PR and I tell you my dog Gus, because Gus needs to be a regular part of our conversation as well. I feel like he is my quiet time companion. Like, you know, if you have support dogs, he is my quiet time support dog. If I pick up my tea in the kitchen, he immediately scurries to the back door. Like, it's time you need Jesus. Like, probably since you really need Jesus.

Courtney Docter (5:08)

You go to the door that is precious. I love God so much. It's like he's, like, hurting you out there. Like, you know, like he's gonna make sure you get your time with Jesus.

Melissa Krueger (5:18)

Yes.

Courtney Docter (5:19)

I love that.

Melissa Krueger (5:20)

Yes. What about you? Where do you. Do you have a place?

Courtney Docter (5:22)

I do. And, you know, we've moved a significant number of times, and so it has shifted in different houses. But the one thing that's consistent. And so the morning is. And I'm hearing you say that too. I do. As far as that kind of structured, formal time of prayer, I mean, First Thessalonians 5:17 says, Pray without ceasing. So obviously this isn't the only time that I pray throughout the day. In fact, I went through a season when I didn't even end my morning prayer with Amen because it was a reminder to me to continue to just be in prayer. Exactly. And I wouldn't say it until I went to bed, until I prayed, just reflecting on the day. But I do have a. I'm pretty consistent about a morning prayer time. And in this house, it's upstairs, we have kind of a TV family room, and I've got a chair. And I. I, for years have prayed on my knees. I mean, I. We can talk about this in a minute. But I mean, I. I had a season that I would. I would lie on my face, but I found myself drifting off a little bit. So.

Melissa Krueger (6:32)

But I. Long time.

Courtney Docter (6:34)

I know, I know. Well, no, I can pause. Like Craig says, it's my spiritual gift. I can fall asleep so fast. So I do. I do get on my knees and I find a. Like I, I find a chair, and it's just my posture prayer. Right. So I find a chair to kind of lean on while I'm praying. So it's the morning, it's upstairs, it's by my comfy chair. And.

Melissa Krueger (6:56)

Yeah.

Courtney Docter (6:57)

And it just that. That routine in and of itself, having that place, when my kids were little, it was the dining room and I had a chair again. I mean, it's just finding that place where you know you're going to go is actually really helpful, isn't it?

Melissa Krueger (7:11)

Yeah, it. It's almost. It just settles you, I think, into it. You're like, this is what we do here.

Courtney Docter (7:19)

Exactly, exactly.

Melissa Krueger (7:22)

And it just helps you get there quicker than if you were just always in a different place or, or whatever. So what benefits have you found? Because obviously we're gonna talk about this in. It's.

Courtney Docter (7:33)

Or.

Melissa Krueger (7:34)

Or we would probably talk about this in general. It's fine to pray anytime. I mean, like sometimes. I mean, you, you and I do this all the time when we're just discussing our day. And we'll say, okay, let's pray about that right now. So we are all for spontaneous prayer. Like, that is a good and godly thing to do. Especially when you're getting like an email, someone asking to pray, or a text. I just pray right then. But what are some of the benefits you've had from taking that structured time? Because I think it's good to have both. So what are some of the benefits you that.

Courtney Docter (8:06)

Oh, the structure helps and I'm sure we'll talk about different structures that we've used, but the structure really helps me orient my heart. It reminds me to not just. And I mean, because we will bring kind of this wish list, these things that we need to our Father, but it reminds me to not just bring that to Him. And I think often of Psalm 100, verse 4 that says, Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise, Give thanks to him, bless his name. Which is almost the reverse of those things. So this idea of praise and thanksgiving. So I've long used just acts, adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication. And I know there are many others. That is one that has really helped me. And so there's the structure of the time of day, and then there's the structure of actually how I pray. And that one, that adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication really helps me orient my heart to the Lord. And it's helped me understand the difference between praise and thanksgiving. They're not the same things. And I remember we had a prayer night at church one night and the pastor was asking us, just have a time of praise. And it was just constant thanksgiving. We thank you for this. We thank you. And it's like, no, they're different things. And so to praise God simply for who he is, like I praise you that you are the Creator and the Sustainer and the Redeemer and the Deliverer, that you are sovereign over all things, that you are enthroned in the heavens. Like, you just praise his holy name. And then I start thanking him for what he's done. So one is who he is, the other is who he, you know, who he is and then what he's done. And then, because I would. So I'd be so prone to move right into then supplication or asking for but confession. Because when you praise him for who he is, then it reminds me of who I am. And I think this prayer that I've prayed almost every morning for a long time, and I don't do it as a routine. I do it because my heart just gets there almost every morning is, Lord, I don't love you the way I should. And I don't love you as much as I should. And I love myself more than I should. And it's just that confession of like pure self centeredness that I need him to like strip me of. Right.

Melissa Krueger (10:38)

Well, I was just gonna say I think it's so important you're talking about the order of those things. This is really interesting. I had never thought about this before, you know, you were saying, okay, so our praise is God's character. Our Thanksgiving is what he's accomplished in some sense. But I also think. And the order kind of matters. I also think it's so important to have confession before supplication. Yes. And here's why. After confession, I'm praying for different things.

Courtney Docter (11:07)

That's so good.

Melissa Krueger (11:09)

Melissa comes in with supplication first. It's all about my will be done, my kingdom come. Thanks, Jesus. You know, like, honestly, that's how it would start versus, oh. After I've confessed, I realized, oh, I need to be praying a lot bigger things. I was praying that, you know, my day would go well. I need to pray that my heart would be changed.

Courtney Docter (11:33)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (11:33)

And my confession kind of tills the soil to change our supplication in so many ways. One. One thing I pray, and I started doing this years ago when I did Kay Arthur's Lord, teach me to pray in 28 days. I don't know if you ever did that study. I love it. It goes through the Lord's Prayer, and that really structured. It changed how I prayed, and it started structuring my prayer time with. Beginning with, our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. So the first thing I sometimes when I'm. Because I often will write my prayers out. We'll talk about that a minute. I'm ready to go with my list, right? For this child, pray for that child. Do the. You know what? I got my list, and it just stops me and it says, lord, may your name be declared holy in the world. Like, that becomes such a rote phrase. But when I really say it, when I say it in my own words, may your name be declared holy in the whole world. And I realize if that would happen, my prayer list would be gone.

Courtney Docter (12:35)

Right, right.

Narrator/Announcer (12:37)

Well.

Courtney Docter (12:38)

And even the first three things in the Lord's Prayer, it's his name, it's his kingdom, and it's his will. Well, how much do we want our name, our kingdom and our will? Right. And so it's that reorienting again of, like, that's right. I'm not here for my name. I'm not here for my kingdom, and I'm not here for my will. It's. I. I've said this so many times, but that question of, you know, we all ask the Lord, how can my life. Or, what is your will for my life? Like, what is. You know, show me your will for my life. And the better question, I think, is to ask, how can My life serve your will. Because he has a will and he has a kingdom that he's advancing. And it's not my kingdom and it's not your kingdom, it's his kingdom that we get to tether our lives to. And so I love that even in that, like the Lord's Prayer, he just rightly orients us right at the beginning that it, this is about Him. This is about him. Okay, I want to go, I want to ask you a follow up question to that then. Because I think so often we have been taught or there's an entire, you know, theology built around this idea that first of all, what is powerful is our prayer and that if we pray in the right way, it obligates God to answer that prayer. Right. If we claim it in the name of Jesus, if we declare it to be so, if we declare, you know, victory over it, then, then God is obligated to do that. And so I think that's a really important thing of how prayer is not only effective, but it's formative for us. And so what, like, what are your thoughts on this idea that prayer is submitting our desires to the Lord's versus requiring our desires to become the Lord's?

Melissa Krueger (14:30)

Yeah, I mean, that is a great question. And I think we can even say there are certain scriptures that can make us feel confused when we read them. And this is what a really important principle. There are certain scriptures that say things like if you ask, it will be given. If you say, did this mountain move into the sea? It will be given. And you're like, huh, okay, I'm not praying big enough prayers. But then Scripture interprets scripture. So we need to see all of scripture in light of other scriptures because there are other ones that say, you know, as you pray, basically in the Lord's will, it's going to be done. And so it's, it's. We have to realize it's not the amount of prayers we give. It's not the faith of the person praying.

Courtney Docter (15:15)

Right. Say that again.

Melissa Krueger (15:18)

It's the object, it's whom we're praying to. He has the power and praise God, he has the power to take my prayers. That would not be good. I mean, there are things that I'm desperately praying for that might not be the best for me, the best for the kingdom. The, you know, that in my limited view, they look, oh, this needs to happen. Lord, how can it not be good that lots of women show up for this event?

Courtney Docter (15:45)

Right?

Melissa Krueger (15:46)

How can that? It might not be good. There, there are purposes that he is wiser than us. And so all of prayer is a submission to his bigger understanding, his bigger knowledge. It's a, it's a right, right. Saying. And I think this is why the Lord's prayer begins with, thy will be done, Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. Because we simply actually don't know even what to pray for, what is best. And so I'm actually so thankful that the Lord is always taking our prayers. And he is. They do matter. This is the thing, and this is the mystery. Because, you know, I have gone there with my husband many, many times saying, if God's sovereign, why do we pray? Well, because he asked us to.

Courtney Docter (16:35)

And if Son's not sovereign, why would we pray?

Melissa Krueger (16:38)

Ex. Yes, yes, exactly. And somehow they are doing, they are effectual. They are actually doing things. I don't know how all that works, because I'm not God. This is the thing. Prayer teaches us. We're not God. Thankfully, he is. And he invites us to come and pray and bring all these requests to Him. And it does matter. Like my lack of prayerfulness is a problem, and my prayerfulness. The Lord does establish his will through the prayers of the saints, and yet his will will be done. And so all of that gets into these larger theological conversations, you know, that we have to, that we have to wrestle with. So what do you think about that? How do you. I mean, because I think this is one thing that's really hard. And I mean, I think we've seen it in really hard places. I can remember discussing with a friend of mine who was dying of cancer, and she had gone to a prayer ministry, and the prayer ministry had said, no, you're going to be healed. And, and I, I, you know, it was a really hard conversation. I said, you know, I do believe you'll be healed. You may be healed in the heavenly kingdom. You may be healed here. I don't believe that their prayer is what is going to heal you in that moment.

Courtney Docter (17:58)

The Lord is the One, and He always answers prayer. He always answers prayer. Sometimes it's a yes, sometimes it's a wait, and sometimes it's a no. But he always answers it. And so that idea of receiving his answer, we think he only answers it if it's yes according to our will, but that's just not true. That's, that's not true with us, with our children. We tell them no sometimes, and we want them to accept that. And so what I heard you saying that I just want to reiterate or restate, is that the, the power of prayer is the one to whom we're praying. He is the powerful one, he is the sovereign one, he is the good one, and he is working all things out. And, and Even when Romans 8 tells us, you know, his Son and his Spirit are interceding for us, I mean, Jesus and the Spirit, Spirit are constantly praying to the Father. That's an amazing thing. So prayer matters. But we have to understand and start accepting all of his answers now. There are, we all have things. I'm sure I have something that I've prayed for for years and I feel convicted to continue to pray for it. I do think the Lord has said, not now, not now, not now. But I am going to continue to pray, pray for it. And I think scripture also commends, I.

Melissa Krueger (19:18)

Would be nicer to you.

Courtney Docter (19:21)

Well, no, the Lord has said no to that. And so I've stopped praying.

Melissa Krueger (19:24)

Okay, you just stop praying for me all together. I just wanted to get it straight. I was like, huh, this mysterious something that Courtney's been praying for.

Courtney Docter (19:33)

I will continue to pray for it. I will continue to pray because I do know. But I just think it's really important to orient even our prayers under that concept of, you know, who the Lord is and the fact that he is answering. And again, it's not even the strength of our faith. It is the strength of our God that answers. Amen prayers. Amen. Okay, so we've been talking about. You didn't, did you tell us what structure you use to your prayer times and then if it's changed just kind.

Melissa Krueger (20:04)

Of the Lord's Prayer, I mean, I mean I will say the biggest thing that has structured my prayer life really since I became a Christian. So when I was 14 or 15, I was doing, I was doing a daily devotional and there was a week on the discipline of journaling and writing out your prayers. And so I started it and I just never stopped. I just kept writing out my prayers. So I have prayer Journals from 15 year old Melissa that I've never read. I do not go back. Some people go back, but you have them. I have them. Which is a little terrifying because who knows what 15 year old Melissa was praying for back in the day. But I will say this. I don't always go back, but I rarely go back and like reread them. But sometimes when it's recent history and I'm thinking, oh, I think I just prayed about this, I will go back and then I will write, oh my goodness, the Lord answered this, you know, and so if I Remember to do that. Normally it's close, close to the date. I'll be like, oh, yeah, this is exactly what we were praying for. And oh my goodness, Lord, you did it. So I like writing for that reason because the recorded helps me remember and praise the Lord.

Courtney Docter (21:22)

I love that I. I know you journal and you know that I really don't I the time, but I don't. But the times that I have either through like a Bible study. I've got all my old Bible studies here on the bottom shelf and I've gone back to ones from 20 years ago and read prayers that I wrote and it's that same thing. It's just that reminder of the faithfulness of the Lord and it helps us to remember the faithfulness of the Lord. I, I have had seasons where I would journal it. And again, it helps. It actually is. I don't know why I don't do it as a more, you know, regular discipline. I just, I just don't. But I do think that it helps me not only think through what I'm praying, but then see the answers because so often it's so easy to ask the Lord for something. We all, my whole family was together this past weekend, 24 of us. And of course I prayed for safe travels for everybody home. Well, the Lord gave it. The Lord gave it. And so I'm just like to stop and thank him for it. Which is one reason that I then pray again before I go to bed, reflecting on the day, reflecting on my prayers that morning in order to remember, remember, like what the Lord has done and the prayers that he's. That he's answered.

Melissa Krueger (22:38)

Okay. One thing I love that you talked about earlier is that you pray on your knees. I rarely do that. I'll just admit it. I'm like, oh, that's really good.

Courtney Docter (22:47)

Part of it that counterbalances you. Journal. I pray on my knees.

Melissa Krueger (22:52)

Journal on my knees. Flexibility, getting older, that's going to be harder and harder. But do you pray out loud when you do that or are you praying quietly? How. What do you do?

Courtney Docter (23:04)

I actually do pray out loud. Now I don't. It might just be a whisper or it really helps me stay engaged. It really helps me stay awake. I, I do, I do pray out loud. And I was thinking about this the other day. I used to. I pray in the car sometimes, and when cell phones first came out, I was embarrassed to be talking in my, in my car. So I would pick up my phone and I would pretend to be on my phone while I pray. I didn't want anybody driving by.

Melissa Krueger (23:36)

Right.

Courtney Docter (23:36)

Thinking I was really weird, which we all know probably didn't work. But I do pray out loud. What about you?

Melissa Krueger (23:45)

That's actually so good. I just love thinking of you in your car, just praying. Why not pray in your car? Yeah, you know, I mean, that's. Again, it just makes that. Oh, now everybody would just think you're talking to your hands free.

Courtney Docter (23:57)

So your eyes open. Keep your eyes open.

Melissa Krueger (23:58)

Yeah, you're totally fine. Yeah, keep your eyes open.

Courtney Docter (24:00)

That's good.

Melissa Krueger (24:01)

But I. I think praying out loud when I'm not writing, that's. That's what I do. Like, when I just feel like I just can't write this out today. Yeah, whatever. I pray out loud because it keeps me focused. I mean, it is really hard to close my eyes and pray. Yes. And not just get distracted.

Courtney Docter (24:23)

I know. I just wander off. I feel like my mind is just weak in that, and it drives me crazy. Okay. No, I was gonna ask you, do you use lists? Does that help you stay organized?

Melissa Krueger (24:37)

Ooh, that. Yes. Okay, let's talk about lists. That's a good question. Let's talk about lists. I like lists, and I like them. We use them at family devotions. Like, that was always a helpful way. And then to stay on task. And we would pray for one member of the family. We'd pray for something going on in the world, you know, that was happening, a current event. We'd pray for one leader in our life because the scriptures tell us, pray for your leaders. And then we pray for missionaries that we supported. And what I love about that, looking back, is when those missionaries came to visit, our kids knew who so and so from Thailand was. They knew who so and so from Prague was like, they were excited to hear that missions update because they'd been praying for them. And so it. It was a way of, you know, connecting them to the Lord and asking the Lord to do things, but also connecting them to the body and what's happening in the world. And I'll be honest, I don't just remember to do that without a list.

Courtney Docter (25:46)

Right, right.

Melissa Krueger (25:47)

What about you? Do you ever use list? I do.

Courtney Docter (25:49)

I'm just like, that's just so good. We did not do that growing up. I feel like most of the prayers that I just sort of let the kids pray were like, help me have a good day. You know, basically, I didn't. I didn't do a great job with that. But I do. My family alone makes it really easy. I have four children and one husband, so that's five, five days of the week. So Craig gets prayed for on Monday, my oldest on Tuesday 2nd. I mean, it's, it's been that way for years. And so even as they've gotten married and had kids, I just put all of that family group on that, on that day. And then, you know, we have taken co workers prayer cards, and I, I keep those in my Bible. I keep them as the bookmarkers for my Old Testament, New Testament reading. And then I pick a day of the week to pray for them. So again, like, that person gets Thursday. And that's just when I pray for them. So that really helps me. And, and I think that idea of categories, like you said, not just list of who we pray for, but categories of what we're praying. So missionaries, current events, leaders, family. I really like that. That is, I think those structures for my personality, those really, those really help me. But if you have a list. So we have like co workers, and I commit to a year of, of praying for them. When I have those cards, I feel so guilty when that year is up. Like, I don't even know what to do with the card. I feel like it's sacrilegious to throw it away. I feel like I shouldn't stop praying for them. So how do you, how do you take someone off the list?

Melissa Krueger (27:29)

Okay, I have an idea for you. Okay, I do have an idea, because this is, I used to do this with my women's ministry team. So this is actually really helpful thing to discuss. How do you, if you're like a women's ministry leader in your church, how do you pray for the other women's ministry leaders in your, in your environment? That's basically what we do as a staff. And so I did, I would give them those cards once a year. And so for my just, my leadership team, I would take, if there were 15 women on that team, I would take all their cards and ask them like four questions. We do this exact same thing with our, our team here. Usually it's like one ministry thing they have going on to pray for one family situation. Maybe they want prayer for one area of spiritual growth that they'd like to grow. And if there's a verse or something, they want us to pray for them anyway. So we even give them some structure in that. So because sometimes when you ask someone, how can I pray for you for a year? They freeze up, I freeze up. So we give them something to help them. And then what I started doing at the end of that year is I would actually give the card back to them. And let me say that was always really significant for the women because it was like, oh, look at what the Lord did. Right? We got through that. Or I did get teaching opportunities in my church this year.

Courtney Docter (28:47)

That is something I can do. I've got my Bible right here and I've got some cards in it that I'm going to be mailing back to people.

Melissa Krueger (28:54)

And, and, and I think it, it will say to them, oh my goodness, Courtney was praying this for me all this year and that's why the Lord did it. So it. And I think sometimes people hesitate to tell others, I've been praying for you. In fact, I got a text yesterday from a woman who has a wonderful ministry and it was the sweetest thing. She texted me and she texted me from her journal that she had been praying for us for TGCW 24 exactly a year ago. And she showed me the written out prayer that she had been praying for us. And I could see someone might be hesitant to send that and be like, oh, I don't, you know, she sent it. And for me it is like Paul telling Timothy, hey, I've been praying for you. Because this was an older woman saying it to me and it was the kindest thing to hear, oh, you've been praying for me. So when you send those cards back to these women, it really is what Paul and Timothy did. I think sometimes we shy away, away from doing that, you know, because our prayers should be secret. There's a rightness to that. You know, we don't have to tell people every time we're praying for something. But Paul regularly said, hey, I'm praying for you. And what that does is it's a reminder when to pray. It's a reminder what a care. Like, I feel so loved when someone tells me they're praying for me. Even when it's Courtney for years and years and it's not being answered, I feel really loved by that. And so I think it's, I think it's a great way for us to do it. But if you are a women on woman on leadership, I think what Courtney was talking about, keeping those prayers of your team. Because sometimes you might say, how can I care for these women who are serving others? Pray for them. Yeah, pray for them. Pray for their lives.

Courtney Docter (30:47)

That's really, I love that. That is really, really beautiful.

Melissa Krueger (30:53)

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Courtney Docter (31:38)

Full okay, well back to immediate family members though, because we do have a couple resources to recommend that you have written that are so helpful. So you wrote two small books, five things to pray for your kids, Five things to pray for your spouse. It's a series of other small books that are five Things. Are they all five things to pray?

Melissa Krueger (32:00)

Yes, they have. They have every five things to pray for your church. Five things to pray for someone who's hurting or something like, you know, suffering in some way. They are great. What I love about them, and I say this because I did not come up with this series. I just got to participate in it. And you're, you're praying through a passage of scripture, those five things. So everything in them is just a scripture. You pray for them and then it's written out so you can pray it. But honestly, it's the only one of my books that I ever look at.

Courtney Docter (32:34)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (32:34)

I keep those beside my Bible and I will pull them out and pray them for my kid. I do, I do have to admit I use the one for my kids more than my husband. Right.

Courtney Docter (32:44)

You know, that was one of the first books of prayer I ever read was the Stormy Omardian is that book. And I just remember the first sentence in the introduction was you're here because you think your spouse. It was something, you know, I'm botching it. But you're here because you think your spouse needs to change. And yet you're the one that's here. You're the one the Lord's brought here. And I just remember the conviction of that of like, oh, that is so right. But. But resources help us. I know Parenting with Hope offers some ways to pray together as a family. I love Nancy Guthrie's book I'm praying for you because again, it's just scripture I use. I haven't, I don't think I've mentioned this, but I do use piercing heaven prayers of the Puritans every morning. So my rhythm is I read a prayer of the Puritan and then I pray and then I read scripture and then I pray that's kind of my rhythm. And the. The prayers of the Puritans just have given me new vocabulary, new things to pray for. And in some ways, I would say just better things to pray for. Instead of just getting what I want, instead conform Christ in me. Instead of making, you know, remove my suffering, instead make me somebody who can endure. Like, it's. It's teaching me how to pray. And so I think resources, especially when, like, you said, the. The five Things to pray books and anything that's giving us scripture to pray is actually forming us into kind of better prayers, which sounds a little silly, but I. I want to be a better prayer. So often, you know, I just feel at a loss for words. And again, I'll just remind everybody that that's when I remind myself that the Son and the Spirit are interceding for me when I don't have words.

Melissa Krueger (34:33)

And.

Courtney Docter (34:34)

But it's beautiful to learn words, too.

Melissa Krueger (34:37)

That's. That makes me think, too. We talk. We talk most things on here. You know, we've talked about. Aging is a discipleship issue. We've talked about all these things. Prayer is a discipleship issue. So do you structure times to pray with others? How. What are some positive ways we could do that in our life? I mean, I think that the most simple thing is, like, we pray before we eat a meal, you know, so if you and I are out, we just say a simple prayer. And, you know, there. There's a Thanksgiving aspect to that. There could be confession. Please forgive me for ordering that. I don't know. But it, you know, there's. But that's a structure that many people have added to their life that keeps them praying. Because if you just pray for your meals, that's three times a day that you're praying. What benefits have you found from praying with others? And how has that structure helped grow your friendship? How has structure helped grow intimacy? Like in a small group? I don't know. Have you seen that happen? I have.

Courtney Docter (35:43)

I think that so often we say to one another, you know, would you pray for me? Or I'll pray for you in that. And then we don't. When the better thing. I think so often. Not every time. Again, this is not prescriptive or legalistic. But so often the better thing is to say, can we pray right now? Can we pray right here? And depending on the friend, I'll say, would you be comfortable with me praying for you right now? I can. I'm happy to do it. You know, when I leave, when I get in my car. But if you're okay, I'd love to pray for you right now. And, and that just. There's something, the immediacy of it that is. First of all, if I tell somebody I'm going to pray for them, I, years ago, was convicted deep in my soul that I. I want to be a truth. I want to do what I say I'm going to do. And so doing it immediately actually really helps. I don't want to forget. I don't want it to drift away. But then to pray with them is a. It's a. It's a beautiful thing. Now, I will say that there's a challenge in praying with others or praying out loud in a group. And I sometimes feel more distant in my prayers at that time. Like, I don't know what it is. I've tried to figure it out. It's not. It's not like a performance. It's not like I'm trying to. I just sometimes feel just more distant from the Lord when I'm praying. And maybe it is because I'm trying to think of the words. And I don't worry about that so much when I'm just here in the room by myself. But. But it's. It's something I want to. I want there to be a. A smaller and smaller gap between how I pray when I'm by myself and how I pray when I'm with others. And so I think that that's. It's just something worth, like reflecting on, something I reflect on in my own life. But I want to get to this, too. I want to ask you about your Bible reading and how does that influence your prayer time? How does do the two things interact with each other? Is there, you know, does your Bible reading inform your prayer time?

Melissa Krueger (37:49)

I can say this is something I'm trying to grow in. And it's also kind of that intersection between the Word we read and the Spirit. And just saying Lord, bring to mind, as I'm reading what I should pray because sometimes the application is, oh, I need to change. I need to do something different. You know, I need to hear. I need to believe differently about the Lord. I need to remember the truth of Scripture. But sometimes I really believe we're in Scripture specifically because the Lord is giving us the words to pray for person in our life. And I. I'm getting better at this. I want to keep growing at this, just taking the time after I read whatever the passage is for today, whatever. Maybe my daily light reading is for the day. And saying, lord, who do I need to pray these scriptures for today.

Courtney Docter (38:36)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (38:37)

And. And then maybe they didn't just tell me, I don't know if you've ever done this. Sometimes I just feel like, hey, this person just keeps coming to mind again and again. And I. I'm like, okay, I'm going to pray this. And I will tell them, hey, I don't know what's going on today, but I am praying these verses for you. And it's amazing. Then you get to see the Spirit is doing things. He's raising me up to pray for this person, even though I don't know their circumstance. But the Lord does. And that's a beautiful thing, too. But that's what I want to grow in. What about you? How does the word impact your prayer life?

Courtney Docter (39:15)

Yeah. And. Well, I'll answer that in just a second. But even that idea that, you know, the Lord lays people on your hearts. I have one friend in particular who. I mean, the. It's got to be a dozen times now that she has reached out. And it has been so. Maribel, if you're listening, you know, it's. You. Like, it is so specific that. That she just knows, like, that it's just. It's just evidence that the Spirit is at work in his people and that he loves the prayers of his people. And it's just been a really, really sweet thing. But, yeah, I do. I also want to grow in that ability to let what I'm reading in Scripture inform how I'm praying. And even just this morning, I was thinking about this. I was in Deuteronomy 15, and Deuteronomy 15 is about releasing those who owe you something at the end of the seventh year. And that the Lord's reminding the people before they go into the land, like, be generous. Take care of each other, because I have been so generous with you. And so I started off with kind of the obvious. Like, I was asking the Lord to make me more generous out of a grateful heart. But then I started praying that about how. What does it mean for me to release those who owe me? Oh, my word. I mean, it was just like the Spirit was like, it's not just financial, but it's emotional debts. And how do you release those? And it was so convincing, convicting. Like, how do I. And then I thought, oh, do I have seven years? Awesome. Because I'm kidding. But it's that idea of, like, oh, I have. I. I don't want to hold people hostage. Yes. To emotional debts any more than the Israelites were supposed to be. Hold their People hostage to financial debts. And so it's just that idea of, like, bend my will to yours. Like, bend my will to yours. And so, yeah, and then, like you said, it gives us categories to pray that, you know, we move out of. Help me have a good day, Help me be safe, Give me healing, give me prosperity, like, bless this, bless that. But instead, like, give me the blessing of endurance. Give me. Give me the blessing of opportunities to proclaim Christ. Give me the blessing of suffering with Christ. Like, there are. There are categories that scripture will. Will teach us to pray. Okay, I want to go back to you, though. How does praying with others help you pray? And have you always, like, do you ever remember a time not being comfortable praying out loud in a group?

Melissa Krueger (41:52)

Yeah, that's. That's one thing I'm really thankful for. You know, my mom prayed with me every night when I went to bed. I mean, and it was just now I lay me down to sleep. I mean, it wasn't, you know, a particularly profound prayer, but the act of her doing it. And I always added on, by the way, and pray for all the animals. My mom was convinced I was going to become a veteran veterinarian because I cared about and the suffering of animals was very in on my heart.

Courtney Docter (42:20)

Heavy on your heart.

Melissa Krueger (42:22)

I love that you knew you were.

Courtney Docter (42:23)

Going to be entrusted with Gus one day.

Melissa Krueger (42:25)

Exactly, exactly. But that practice of a simple prayer before bedtime always made prayer very comfortable for me. Just something you knew how to do. And so I would just say, you know, if you happen to be a parent, if you're listening, don't think you have to have these long, beautiful prayers with your kids. Simple prayers given regularly will build habits in them that even if I feel like. Even if they wander, even if they walk away from the faith for a season, those habits. There will come a day where they think I can't handle my life, and they will know how to call out to the Lord because of simple prayers taught at a young age. And so I'm really thankful just for that pattern in my life. And then as I got older and started really walking with the Lord on my own, I was always in Bible studies, and, you know, you just always prayed together. And so I'm really thankful. Maybe I was too young to care.

Courtney Docter (43:33)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (43:34)

And. And so. And it just was always a habit of those groups, and it never felt uncomfortable in friendship. Um, it was always just something that I was around and doing. But I do know that it can be a real place of discomfort. Have you ever been because you seem so comfortable at praying. Have you ever felt uncomfortable or really had a friend who was uncomfortable that you prayed with and just would be like, it's okay. You don't have to pray out loud. Like, I've had friends who are like, I'm never going to pray out loud at Bible study. I'm like, no problem. But what about you? Have you had gone through a season like that?

Courtney Docter (44:07)

Yeah. I mean, you know, I didn't become a believer. I didn't really start following the Lord until my early 20s. And prayer was not a. I. I laugh. Growing up, we used to pray when we ate in the dining room. Like, for some reason, those were the meals. Right. That was really the prayer time, the. The public prayer time. I know my mom has been, you know, was praying for us privately, but we didn't do a lot of prayers of family. But my personality, you know, it wasn't hard for me that, you know, give me the opportunity to talk and I will. So it wasn't. That was not a hard thing for me to do is to start praying out loud again. I was in Bible study. It was just kind of expected. But I think that I've definitely had friends who are like, do not call on me. Like, I am not comfortable doing this. And we just want to say that is okay. I think some ways to grow in that so that you can become somebody who can at least pray for another friend or whatever. Start praying out loud by yourself. Start praying out loud, you know, when nobody else is. Is around, and then. And then ask a friend to pray with you and maybe even divvy it up. Like, you can grow in this. You can grow in your ability to do that. And. And you can also, you know, understand your own. Your own personality. If you're the one that always wants to be the one praying out loud, give someone else a chance. If you're the one that never wants to press into it and offer to pray for one thing. So I think we can grow all of us, no matter what our natural proclivities are.

Melissa Krueger (45:36)

And maybe like you said even earlier, if you're someone who feels maybe completely frozen, kind of off the cuff, one, you could use puritan prayers from the past. You could use somebody else's prayer. Every moment holy has beautiful prayers for, like, baby shower. I mean, for lots of things. But if you want to incorporate a prayer from someone else that will start.

Courtney Docter (46:02)

A habit of prayer or write yours out like you do and then. And then read it. Yeah, I think that's really. Yeah, that's good. Melissa Yes.

Melissa Krueger (46:09)

I mean, so I think. I think the thing for all of us is to realize we can all learn it and get better at it. You're not stuck where you are today. And just even to maybe close this up, these structures, again, as Courtney said at the beginning, not intended to be legalistic things to make you righteous, but it's because we're invited in. Jesus says, come to me in prayer. And I. And I, the Lord of all the earth listens to us. What an amazing thing. So to be thoughtful about that is a good thing. And so we just encourage you, as you're listening in today, to think through maybe, like, maybe just think through. What's one thing I can add to my prayer life to grow in from even hearing this conversation? Don't think you have to do all 20 things we discussed. What's one thing I can do over the next six months to maybe improve my prayer life, even if it's just praying with another friend really quickly, as soon as they say, will you pray for me? You know, whatever. It might be just picking up one thing, but this time has been so good. Courtney, thank you for this discussion. I really do love. And I can say this. This is how we live life together. I mean, I can't tell you, you know, y' all know Voxer because it's not our sponsor, but it should be our sponsor. But we often, I mean, Courtney so quickly will pray for me on Voxer or. And so quickly say, okay, let's pray about this every time before we do one of these episodes. She's like, let's pray. And so I see you as a friend who. You live this out and. And I think it happens more sporadically when it's being done regularly hidden in a structured way. And so I just want you to know if you. If you're going to bring this into your life more all throughout the day, starting with those structures is going to actually help that, I think. But we always close up with one question before we wrap up. I want to ask one question for you. Okay. I think I know the answer to this already. Have you ever fallen asleep while praying or have you ever fallen asleep while praying in a group?

Courtney Docter (48:16)

Yes, and yes. Well, not while I was praying in the group, thank goodness. But I have definitely fallen asleep, like in church when my, you know, if a pastor is going on and on and it's dark and my eyes are closed and Definitely, definitely. And then, you know, then you're in that kind of half in, half out phase, and you're like, just, just Keep praying, because I really want to just keep my eyes closed. Definitely, Definitely. I've fallen asleep while praying myself. It is. Yeah. Haven't you?

Melissa Krueger (48:49)

No. But. But let me.

Courtney Docter (48:52)

Let me say the definitive answer. Melissa is more righteous.

Melissa Krueger (48:55)

No, it is not. Here's what I can honestly say. It is not a spiritual thing. It is a sleep thing. I don't fall asleep in movies.

Courtney Docter (49:03)

I don't fall.

Melissa Krueger (49:04)

I don't fall asleep. Like, where I see other people doing that. Like. No, no. I fall asleep in my bed after 30 minutes of reading.

Courtney Docter (49:11)

So that is amazing.

Melissa Krueger (49:13)

I love people like you who can fall asleep on a couch somewhere. I mean, that is like a rare gift that happens maybe twice a year somewhere, but it's not a normative thing for me. So it's not Melissa's so spiritual. It's Melissa can't sleep. That's a different.

Courtney Docter (49:28)

It's both.

Melissa Krueger (49:29)

That's a different, different thing, so. Well, thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, please, please like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and also share it with a friend. Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.