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The Deep Dish
Kitchen Table Counseling Within Your Local Church
00:39:00
Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor talk about how to seek out the counsel of wise friends and how to respond well when friends seek your counsel.
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- [00:00]
Melissa Krueger
Couldn't make it to The Gospel Coalition's 2025 National Conference. Don't worry. You can now watch keynote talks from John Piper, David Platt, Alistair Begg, Mark Brogop and more, as well as dozens of breakout sessions from the comfort of your own home. Or gather some friends and family to watch along. Go to tgc.org on demand.
- [00:20]
Courtney Docter
That's tgc.org ondemand Every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who' sinned against someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others. And so we are able to enter into each other's lives and each other's stories with the truth and the hope of the gospel. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. Hey, guys, I'm Courtney Docter and I'm here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger. And today we want to talk about what we're calling kitchen table counseling. So let's just start. Melissa, what is kitchen table counseling and what is it not?
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah, it could be kitchen table counseling. It could be park bench counseling.
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Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [01:22]
Melissa Krueger
It could be my walking buddy counseling. And so I think what we're really talking about here is kind of that counsel we give to one another. And the special thing that can happen in friendship and relationships where we start telling our stories to one another and those can have grief, they can have sorrow, they can have real hurts in them. And we, as we enter into these conversations with one another, we start giving each other counsel. And let's be clear, that can be good counsel or that can be bad counsel. And, you know, we of course want to be women who are giving wise counsel across our kitchen tables and who can enter into these conversations, though in a way that is both true and compassionate and yet not a compassion that leads us to not be truthful.
- [02:16]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [02:17]
Melissa Krueger
And not a truth that leads us to not be kind. You know, so we want that these conversations to really be ones that point one another to Jesus. And we want to say at the beginning, there is a place for professional counseling. This conversation is about just lay level counseling. And I like to say, like we're looking for, to become the type of women who people want to share their hurts and hardships and struggles with and griefs with, where that feels like, oh, I can go to that person and I know I'll be heard and challenged appropriately and reminded of the truth I need to hear. Yeah, that's to me, the best kind of kitchen table counseling. But we also sometimes in kitchen table counseling say, hey, this, you know, if we see things like self harm or maybe the potential for self harm or hear of abuse in the past, we might be the friend who's helping them get to the place they need to, to get even, even more specific type of help that we, it's, it's also part of knowing your limits in kitchen table counseling. So, so we want to say that at the beginning, this is, you know, we're entering in with people, but we also know there is really a place for professional counseling, but we want to do it as best we can. So. So on that thought, how is it different than like a discipleship or mentoring relationship?
- [03:41]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, I think it's a type of discipleship. I think, I think of it as sort of a subset of discipleship because when you, you're in these relationships that you're sharing your life, you're sharing your story, you're sharing your joys and your sorrows with each other. All of our stories contain all of these pieces, right? Suffering, sorrow, sin. And as we, as we walk with people and we trust them, we self disclose and people self disclose to us. And, and this is the environment where a lot of times that's the first place that it is something is disclosed. Like you, you're in a discipleship relationship or you're in a friendship. And eventually enough trust is built that you feel like you can tell that person either something that has happened in your life, something that is happening, and that can be your own sin, the sin of someone else, your own suffering, the suffering of someone else. I say it all the time, but we are. Every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus, goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who's been sinned against, someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others. And so, and so as we're having these robust relationships, which is what we're supposed to be doing, these things bubble to the surface. And so we are able to enter in to each other's lives and each other's stories with the truth of, and the hope of the gospel. And so I think of it as a subset of discipleship.
- [05:17]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. So what, when, what makes you willing to go there with someone like, I mean, you know, I know you've got a ton of sin. I mean, and it's true. I'm totally kidding. We all do. Like, we all do. What does create a space? What are the maybe, what are the qualities of someone like when you think about that first person that you were able to say, hey, I have this in my past, and maybe that means I'm never supposed to teach the Bible. Maybe that means I can't be in leadership. Maybe, you know, the things that might hold us back. Who, what, what qualities are you looking for when you open up to a woman like that?
- [06:02]
Courtney Docter
Yeah. I told my kids when they were little, I said, if you're going to listen to someone's advice, I would, I would ask these four questions. Do they know God? Do they love God? Do they know you? And do they love you? Because if any one of those pieces are missing, it doesn't mean that we don't accept counsel from those people. But I think we weight it differently, because if somebody has all four of those pieces, that's a powerful combination to listen to their advice because they're going to be for you, it's going to be based in knowledge. They're going to be, you know, bringing the truth of God and his word to bear on the situation. And so those are, those are really important. But then I think about those friendships, that they're safe. They're, you know, that that person is going to be. They're first going to turn to the Lord in prayer. They're going to kind of what you started with. They're not going to fall off on the side of either. You know, if we want to pit truth and love against each other, they're not going to fall off into the ditch on one side or the other and be all just like, well, let me just tell you, you know, you're a sinner, and that's why you're in this. But they're going to speak the truth in love. But they're also, I think what most of us are more inclined to do is really point people to ourselves and, and want them to like us. And so we, we miss the truth piece. And so, so this.
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Melissa Krueger
Why are you talking about me like that, Courtney? I don't like it. This is not. Let's counsel Melissa about her sin patterns. Right. But, yeah, it's.
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Courtney Docter
So I love all these interventions we're having on the deep dish.
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Melissa Krueger
Why are they all for me? But I, I do because it's so tempting just to be concerned about how that person's thinking about you in the moment. I know I want them to feel loved or, you know, and sometimes they need to feel rebuked. I mean, like, if they're coming to you and saying, no, I'm convinced the love of my life is not My husband, it's this guy at work. Well, the compassionate thing is, is not to just be like, I agree.
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Courtney Docter
Right.
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Melissa Krueger
That's actually not compassion.
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Courtney Docter
Right.
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Melissa Krueger
The compassionate thing to the line. Yeah. Is to be I love you.
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Courtney Docter
I know.
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Melissa Krueger
And that's never going to go well for you.
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Courtney Docter
Yeah.
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Melissa Krueger
Right now it looks so enticing, but the end of that road is death. And I don't know how it's going to come, but it's going to be full of pain and brokenness and sin is never the answer, you know, and to be able to hold it with this deep love for the person, like you said, and yet this deep longing for their best good, which is always found in God's word.
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Courtney Docter
Yep. And say that again. Say those two things again because that's really important, Melissa.
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Melissa Krueger
Oh, can you repeat them?
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Courtney Docter
That their best good is always found in, in God and his Word. Like that is the path of flourishing. That is the path of the abundant life. It's not the easy one, but it's the good one.
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah, that's right. And so to me, that's the best kitchen table counseling is those women. So for me, it's sometimes those women I trust that they've been in the Word more than like writing their own advice columns. You know, that they're being shaped by God's word. It's infusing their brain and it just overflows from their hearts. And so I always want to find those women who I know are going to give me truth and law and they love me. I think that's, that's really the substance of a good kitchen table.
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Courtney Docter
Yeah. I had a friend like that in my 20s and I was complaining pretty significantly about my husband and I. Everything in me just wanted her to enter in and bond. And we've all been in that situation where it's a little tempting to bond, bond with that person over this. And she was just, I mean, she was, she spoke life to me and she rebuked me and said, I think you need to go home and make a list of 20 things you're grateful for about him, you know, and that I ended up having so much more respect for her and I felt so much safer with her because I knew she was going to speak the truth to me. And when, when we fail to speak the truth to each other, like you said, we're. It's the least loving thing we can do. It's just self protective and, and. But it's hard to kind of cultivate and curate that ability within yourself to speak the Truth in love. So let me ask you. Galatians 6:2 says, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And I think that's what we're talking about here, bearing each other's burdens and speaking the truth of Christ. So can you tell me about a time that you were really burdened and someone came along and kitchen table counseled you, helped carry that load. And then how did it. How did it help and why did it matter?
- [10:58]
Melissa Krueger
It's probably been now about 18 years since this one happened. So it's been a while. My father had a heart attack, and then when he fell, he hit his head, and so he had a brain bleed. And so the heart. We didn't know about the brain bleed, so the heart attack was actually really easily handled. My mom was like, don't even come. He's fine. They're putting the stent in. And then the brain bleed turned out to be a nightmare. We got. When my brother and I got to the hospital, the neurosurgeon came out and he was basically like, if he makes it, we're going to take it minute by minute. And then there was no hope that he would even cognitively be himself again. And I had three little kids at the time. In fact, I was still nursing. And I can remember something my friends did. They would just send me scripture. So I actually didn't even have. Sometimes when you're in suffering like that, you can't get around the kitchen table with someone. But. But they were texting me these scriptures, and they actually had no idea that those scriptures were some of the very same scriptures I was reading in, like, my. In my daily life. No idea that. That these things were happening. But I can just remember some of them who had lost parents and they just knew what I was walking through or who had been in the hospital. People who had done hospital stays, new I can remember some of them would just come, they would just bring food, because you don't even know, oh, I don't know how to eat in the hospital. Like, they just knew how to enter in physically and then with compassionate care without having to tell their story. I think some of them would just. I remember one person just sitting there and saying, let's just pray. But. But you knew they knew what you were going through. But they didn't burden me with what they'd been through. They just were there. And so sometimes I think in that immediate grief, we bear burdens with someone in physical ways and through prayer. And then later, as that story Went on for a lot, many years, you know, because it took him a long time to recover. Just being able to sit with some older women who could sit with me and say, okay, how are you going to. This is called. They would actually named it for me. They said, this is called the sandwich problem. You've got young kids on one end and older parents on the other and just giving me names for understanding what I was feeling. These pulls to taking care of my young kids and these pulls toward loving my parents. Well, and they just got it. And they could just say, okay, yeah, you're going to be giving 100% and it's never going to feel like enough. But just the fact that they understood and entered in was so hugely helpful for me in that season where I felt like there just wasn't enough of me to be the daughter I wanted to be and the mom I wanted to be, the friend I wanted to be was out the door. The wife I wanted to be felt out the door. But those women just stood and. And were there and could understand. And that was huge for me. Sometimes just naming what you're going through is really huge. What about you?
- [14:03]
Courtney Docter
Well, it's really beautiful, like to see how somebody was able to counsel you through your own confusion and grief and your kind of conflict of interest. And that is so necessary. I was thinking actually about a sin pattern and a temptation that I was facing and a friend that it was. It was when I finally got the courage to confess it to this friend that it was like the burden was lifted. I mean, there I have. I feel like over and over in my life I've experienced that where you bring something to light and it loses its power. And that was just having that friend that was safe enough and godly enough for me to say, like, this is. I am really struggling with this just temptation and this, you know, kind of sin pattern in my own heart and mind. That was really. And it was. She pray and it was just the. It was the. She beared my burden bare bore. I don't know, she did something. She carried my burden. I'm not quite sure what word I'm supposed to use, but. And it, it really lightened it. It completely changed how I didn't feel oppressed by it. I didn't feel under the weight of it. And you know, that's just a freeing thing. And so as we're talking about those people that are. Are safe and they offer the wise counsel, what is it about them? And then how can we become those women that others want when they are burdened. It's our kitchen tables that they want to come sit at because I want to be that woman. We're going to take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors and we'll be right back.
- [15:42]
Melissa Krueger
We are so thankful for the sponsor of our podcast, Crossway. They have been producing wonderful resources for the church for many years, and today we get to share a little bit about one that we both have loved. Women of the Word, how to Study the Bible with Both Our Hearts and Our Minds by Jen Wilkin. I can remember when I first read this book, I had that feeling of, oh my goodness, yes, this is so true. The examples that Jen used. I can still remember the Magic 8 Ball example that she uses about how sometimes we use the word and we just think, I'll just open it up and see what appears and that's what I'll do, or whatever. And she really is so just insightful in how we can sometimes misuse scripture, but she really points us to how to study it with our heart and our mind. And I can just remember enjoying this so much the first time I read it. Courtney, I'm sure you had a similar experience.
- [16:45]
Courtney Docter
Yeah. The illustration that I remember is the one about the ruffly tights. It's just quintessential Jen Wilkin. It is pithy, it is wise, it is helpful, it is gospel saturated. And it is for any woman who wants to go deeper in their study of the Bible and women who want to learn how to teach others to do the same. It's, it's wildly popular for a reason, and we commend it with all of our hearts.
- [17:12]
Melissa Krueger
There are over 250,000 copies sold, and you can pick up a copy of Women of the Word wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org to find out more.
- [17:25]
Courtney Docter
Welcome back. Let's get right back into today's conversation.
- [17:29]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, and I think the things you already said were so good. They love God. They love his word. They love you. Like that. That's a great place to begin. I just think that little outline was so good for anyone to think about. When we think about these type of women, I really think learning to ask good questions can help immeasurably in these type of conversations. And so I was thinking about this, like, how do we do this? Let's say someone comes back from, you know, they, they've lost someone they love and they're coming back from the funeral home. I, I'll be honest. I think an overwhelming question is, how are you doing? I Think that's really hard to answer. So I try to stick in the category of, hey, what did the funeral director tell you? How's tomorrow going to look? What's the process? Just asking them the questions. Because what you're doing in that moment when they're just telling you what's going on, then you can say, okay, so it sounds like it's going to be really busy from 2 to 3. Would it be helpful if I got someone, you know, you can enter in, in that way. But I think going back to concrete things that they can talk about rather than how they're feeling when, when. Especially when there's been a grief or a loss, I think that's helpful. So really, sometimes before I go into a situation, I think, how am I not going to ask, how are you doing? Like, I'm in my car thinking through what's a better question? Because that's what's so easy. I mean, like, if I'm, oh, how you doing? How are you? Like, I mean, but I. I've been asked that before, and I'm like, I have no idea. Or if someone asked me, how can I pray for you? I'm like, I don't, I don't. I don't know. I can't.
- [19:14]
Courtney Docter
And. Because the answer is, simultaneously, I'm absolutely gutted and I'm being held. Like, I'm. I'm fine, and I'm, like, wrecked at the same time. And so. Yeah, that's so good that. Yeah. Learning and thinking ahead of time about those questions. I really love that.
- [19:32]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. Yeah. What about you? What, what has made you. Yeah. As you enter into situations with people, how. How have you learned to enter in? I mean, you've done women's ministry for years, so how have you learned to enter in to those situations? Whether it's grief or. Yeah, these are all really different situations that we might be called to counsel. And, and we all, we would both say, start with prayer on that drive over.
- [19:59]
Courtney Docter
Art with prayer. Yes. And pray the whole time. Well, my natural proclivity is, as you well know, to jump in with advice. I mean, I'm like, somebody's coming to me for, like, counsel. They want my words. Right? That's. They want my words and they want my thoughts on this. And so I just. I'm almost like on the edge of my seat. Used to be maybe I'm changing in this. Like, oh, why are you still talking? Because you're here because you want my words, you know, you want my advice on this. And so realizing that there's actually a lot of therapy that happens just by listening and by sitting and being that space to. I have friends that are counselors and they talk about holding someone's story. And I really love that of okay, kind of that invitation. You can keep telling me this. I can hold it. Like, I can hold it. And. And then holding it means that I. I don't share it with anybody else. So I don't, you know, I. I try to navigate my own tendency to want to speak into it immediately, like you said, continue to ask it questions and then be willing to sit in. There are some situations that I don't know what to say. And so be willing to sit in those spaces that it's okay for both of you not to know, but just to sit in it and be really sad about it and then ask the Lord to step in. I mean, the number of times in my prayer that I say, lord, I don't even know how to pray, but I know your son and your spirit are interceding right now. I bank on that. I go to that. And so even going back to those first four things, the ones that are really in my power to do, in my control, I can be a woman who knows and loves God, that by his grace, by his spirit. But I can keep knowing more about him, which makes me a better person to come to because I know Him. And then I can work on my own stuff to, you know, where I want to jump in with advice or I want to jump in your. When you said jump in with your story, man, don't we all do that? And when you're the one hurting, it drives me. I'm just like, I'm. This wasn't about you. Why are we talking about you now?
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Melissa Krueger
Have you seen that SNL skit?
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Courtney Docter
No. What are they?
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Melissa Krueger
One upper. She's always one upping like, I don't know when it was from. I'm probably wrong, but it's always like, oh, well, you hurt your pinky. Oh, yeah, well, my whole arm got cut off. And yeah, it's this like, okay, everybody has a story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Courtney Docter
Everybody has a story.
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Melissa Krueger
And it makes you feel like, okay, can I share this one? When someone kind of one ups you, right?
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Courtney Docter
I think I've told you the time when one we had a pony that died. My kid's pony died. And my friend, I went to her and I was talking to her, and she literally told me about a time that her kids had a pet frog and it died. Now, I hope everybody listening understands that those are not the same thing. They are not.
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Melissa Krueger
I think that's really insensitive of you. And we're going to get letters from frog love.
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Courtney Docter
You lost your frog. I'm really sorry, but my pony story is worse. Okay.
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Melissa Krueger
The other thing, though, that you said I thought was really important and I don't want to forget this and, you know, my brain. I'm apt to forget, so was the. You listen and you. You don't tell it to other people afterwards. Yeah. Let's. Let's talk about this for just a minute. Suffering is like a magnet for people. Everyone wants to be in the know. Oh, are they at the hospital? Where are they?
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Courtney Docter
Oh.
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Melissa Krueger
Oh. How is she doing? It's almost okay.
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Courtney Docter
It is. Would you pray for her?
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Melissa Krueger
It is concern. But then it's like, Courtney, I don't think she's doing very well. I mean, you know, this is. But I mean. Yeah. And it can become a gossip mill of other people's stories and their suffering. And so the people I trust the most are the ones who I know are going to hold. Let me lose it.
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Courtney Docter
Yep. Yeah.
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Melissa Krueger
Let me just have a moment where I throw up my hands and I'm like, I don't. You know, I. I don't know if God loves me right now. Something that's completely untrue, like, I know is untrue theologically and is safe enough for me to say. And. And I trust that Courtney is not going to be like, well, aunt. Like, she's gonna get our co worker, Aunt Melissa. Yeah. She's just having a rough time. I don't know how she's. Because what do you. You leave feeling like my story was, you know, your lunchtime conversation, and then you felt even more guarded and your walls are up more. So I think sometimes it guises itself as concern, but we're really gossiping.
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Courtney Docter
Yes. Yes.
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Melissa Krueger
And so when you said that, I was like, yeah, that. That that's one of the most important things a kitchen table counselor can do.
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Courtney Docter
Yes.
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Melissa Krueger
It's just holding.
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Courtney Docter
So glad you highlighted that. If anybody has to start conversation with, please don't tell her I told you this. No. Don't put the burden of keeping the confidence on the next person that you're telling it to. You be the one that doesn't tell anybody. Yeah. Confidential safe spaces are really valuable, aren't they?
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
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Courtney Docter
Because the opposite of it is devastating.
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah. And even. Even things that might seem simple, like, I think it's really helpful. Let's say there's a chain of people who are praying, hey, Would you. Would it be helpful for you if I told our 10, our group of 10 on the chat what you just told me so they can pray? Ask permission. Because I do know for me, in that story I told earlier about my dad, I was exhausted telling people, so I told one of my friends. I said, could you just tell everybody? Like what the medical stuff. Cause there's just a lot of details and you get weary of telling some of that. And so that's totally fine, but just take the time. You know, different people. One thing I've learned. This is maybe another thing. Different people are different. Took me 30 years to realize that. But so some person might be totally fine that you shared and might be offended you didn't share. Oh, why didn't you tell them all to pray for this? But another person might keep things, especially medical things, a lot closer to the chest. So I think. I think we need to be aware.
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Courtney Docter
That's good. Ask permission. I really love that. Okay, well, so on one hand, we don't want to just jump into advice giving. We don't want to tell them our story. So these are things we've said don't do. Don't give advice to, you know, over, like, just quickly and. And. And don't jump into telling them your own version of the story. But also talk about. We want to give them scripture. We want to give them the truth of God's word. But it can also be a timing issue and a wisdom issue, because I don't know if you've ever sat with somebody who just puts a little quick band aid on everything with. And the band aid is a Bible verse. So.
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Melissa Krueger
Bible band aids.
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Courtney Docter
Bible band aids. So. So what are some passages that you found really helpful in providing counsel? And what are some times that. How can we. How can we become women who don't offer Bible band aids and offer scripture at the same time?
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah. Yeah. I think that is a really good question because it's really easy to. Romans 8, 28, everything.
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Courtney Docter
Yep.
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Melissa Krueger
You know? Well, I know in all things, God is working for the good, you know, so he's working this for good. And that is true. So true. And at the same time, we all know sometimes that is just not what is needed in that moment. And so one thing I really try to do. I don't know. I'm sure you have good ideas on this, is let the Scriptures guide my prayers for them. So my own time in the Word, and I found this to be amazing because I can say, hey, I was in First Chronicles today, so it's not the typical. They know who's reading 1st Chronicles anyway. She must be honest about this. You know, like I was and, and I saw this passage and, you know, it says, hey, you're not going to have to fight this battle. The Lord will fight it for you. I'm going to pray those words for you today in your sin struggle that the Lord, you're going to just stand, see the salvation of the Lord, and you're going to just see him provide for you. I feel like, you know, when we say, I'm praying this for you, or rather than, you know, I don't know, like something that, that might just seem trite or, or an easy answer or if someone's anxious, hey, I'm really praying. I am praying that the piece of the peace of God would guard your heart and mind. No.
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Courtney Docter
Yeah, the pieces transcends all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. But you're the one that read the Bible study on Philippians, so. No, I need those verses all the time. That's why I know them, because I desperately need every part of that.
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Melissa Krueger
Yeah. What about you? How do you engage scripture in these and yet not, you know, not make it a Bible band aid?
- [29:20]
Courtney Docter
Not make it a Bible band aid? Well, I think that that does take wisdom and finesse. I really liked what you said about taking those. The two things, you know, that it was fresh, that. Because you were in the Word. And that does happen when you're spending time in the Word because God is actually sovereign and he cares about you and he cares about that person. And the number of times that I have been in a passage that was complete, that it just brought it to mind. And, you know, that's like the living, active word of God. We read it through the lens of what we're going through. And part of what we're going through is what our friends are going through. It's why corporate worship is so important. Because when you're singing those songs and you look over and you. You know the story of the person three people down from you, you. You sing the song differently. You can sing the song for them. You can stand and. And hold their hope in that moment, hold their comfort in the moment. Anyway, I'm digressing. But the idea that it's fresh and that you pray it, I think that that's really significant. And then there are times just to say, I don't want this to sound trite, like I actually mean this as, as something solid to hold on to, because it is. And so you know, he will never leave you or forsake you. He actually is working all things together for good. And so let's talk about what that means. Let's redefine what good is. Let's talk about how God could be doing that. So. So maybe even camp on the verses for a little bit longer and wrestle through them rather than kind of throwing them from a distance. And then I think, also learning how to pray those bigger prayers, like what you're talking about. It's one reason I love Nancy Guthrie's book I'm praying for you. Now, that's not so much kitchen table counseling. That's if somebody's going through really an illness or suffering, but you can give it to people, and it teaches them how to pray Scripture. And really bigger prayers like, use this to conform Christ in me. Use this to strengthen and anchor my faith further in the gospel than it was prayer prior to whatever the. The struggle or the suffering is that you're dealing with. And so I think the only way we do that is with the word of God.
- [31:42]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. And I. I think another thing I'm also hearing from you, too, you might be having that over the kitchen counter, but then follow up. So I. I think this is something important that we haven't talked about. So we've talked about some things not to do. But I think one thing that's really important, too, particularly like, if someone is sharing a sin struggle with you, and if they ask for accountability, give it to them. Meaning, you know, if you. If. If a woman in your church comes and says, hey, I'm really struggling with pornography, you can assure her of God's grace. You can assure her of God's forgiveness. And then remember, you might be the only one she's ever shared that struggle with. And that is its own burden on you. But follow up with her because it took a risk for her to share. And in fact, when someone shares a sin struggle, I think it's really, if you can within 24 hours to send a text, to send something, to say, hey, thank you for being brave enough to share that with me. I want you to know I'm here for you. I want you to know Jesus loves you and I'm praying for you, you know, just to not make them feel, like, alone. I don't know if you've ever had a situation where I've had situations where I shared something personal or deep in my heart with someone, and then I'm like, what do they think of me now? Oh, my goodness, am I crazy? You know, Should I have done that? Was that okay? And, you know, and even to assure them, hey, I just want you to know I'm not going to tell anyone about this. It's safe with me, you know, because don't we all wonder that, like, oh, is she now do all this. Women now know that I struggle, have this struggle or whatever it might be. And so I think that confidentiality is important. Telling them you'll keep it confidential is important, you know, and following up. And if they're actually asking for accountability, say, hey, I'm gonna ask you on Sunday, how was this weekend? Because I know this. The weekend's a hard time for you when you're watching TV shows you shouldn't. Yep.
- [33:45]
Courtney Docter
Well, I had a friend that asked me, and we got really specific with it because she said, this is what I'm struggling with, and this is when I struggle with it. And so I said, okay, tell me how I can. Like, she's asking me for accountability, so tell me what that looks like. And it was that. It was like, on these evenings, would you just text me and just tell me, remind me that you're thinking of me and you're praying for me. And, you know, it's.
- [34:11]
Melissa Krueger
But.
- [34:11]
Courtney Docter
But she was involved in the process of kind of her own healing and. And victory over sin patterns. And so that was really beautiful. So, okay, I want to repeat a few things that we've said that I think are worth repeating as we're. Because if. If you're listening and you're thinking, oh, I need to find. Find somebody like that.
- [34:37]
Melissa Krueger
All.
- [34:38]
Courtney Docter
I mean, both of us would just say, do it. There is. The Lord has wired us to need each other and to have people to invite them into these struggles. And remember, that person's not your savior. They might fail you in this. They might not live up to every expectation that you have. And that's okay because we're. We're doing this together. But if you're the person that. That somebody reaches out to, then, you know, we've said not to overshare your own story. Don't just give good advice. Take them to the Lord in prayer. But even if in your own heart, you start feeling sort of maybe morally superior because that's not your struggle, then I would say that's a time that the Lord is allowing you to be a kitchen table counselor. But it's going to be for the good of the other person, but also for your sanctification. The Lord's going to be working out something in you and bringing humility to you have to remind yourself that, that there is no one righteous. No, not one. And for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And so we are fellow sinners and sufferers, walking with other sinners and sufferers. And so to, to enter those relationships with tenderness, care. But humility.
- [35:54]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:55]
Courtney Docter
In all of it.
- [35:56]
Melissa Krueger
I think one thing you talked about just a minute ago that I wanted to highlight again is part of that humility. I think you said, your friend said, or maybe you said to your friend, what would accountability look like? Having the humility to be like, let me ask you what, what would be the best way? And I think that's a really important thing in kitchen table counseling. Hey, what would be the best way for me to follow up with you? Would you rather me is a hug at church? Okay? Or do you not want me to do that? Because people might be like, why are they hugging? Would you rather me email you? Would you rather me text you and then be like, hey, I'd love to send you a verse every now and again? Do you want me to do that? Like, is that helpful? Like, I think taking the time to humbly say, I'm not you. What? In this season of grief, you know, and maybe giving a multiple choice answers. Because sometimes they're like, I don't know. I mean, that's me. I'm. I'm a terrible. I don't know her. I don't know what would be helpful, but when someone says, hey, can I bring you a meal on Tuesday or Thursday or Saturday? Okay, Saturday's better.
- [37:07]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [37:08]
Melissa Krueger
Rather than can I bring you a meal sometime?
- [37:10]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [37:10]
Melissa Krueger
Like sometimes. Oh, I don't know. I mean, sure, maybe I don't know when that would be, so let me.
- [37:15]
Courtney Docter
Know if I can do anything to help kind of thing. And they're like, okay, that's so unspecific that it's not helpful.
- [37:21]
Melissa Krueger
Yes. So I think those taking the time to, you know, think about the questions we're going to ask and then how are we going to respond after? So it's not just what happens at the kitchen table, you know, it's what happens before we come to it, it's what happens after we come to it. And it's what's happening in our own life as we're walking with Jesus and remembering how much we need him. Because the grace that we've received is what's going to overflow, you know, in, in a gentle but loving rebuke. And we're still going to offer it because we know we needed it at times. Or just the ability to sit and weep with a friend who's in grief and not feel like we've got to solve it. And I think that's what you were really getting to earlier when you were talking about, you know, like, the giving of advice. We want to solve it. And I can remember one season. I mean, it was really hard, and I felt like a few people in my life just wanted to solve me. Yeah. And I was like, I just. I need to just be allowed to lament that. Lament's a part of the Christian life. And the Lord will bring us out, and we can trust. The Lord will heal. We don't have to be the agents of healing. We can be part of that process, but we can also know, and I think this is maybe even a last hope we can give people. The Lord is the shepherd of a sheep. We might be a part in someone's story, but we're also not responsible for the healing that happens. Or even pointing them to the. They might reject our rebuke. They might reject us because we. We said, hey, I don't think this is going to go well for you. But the Lord's writing the story in their life, and we can. We can trust in him in our limited part in this person's story. As you said earlier, we don't have to be the savior.
- [39:04]
Courtney Docter
That's. That's a good word. Okay, well, before we close, I want to ask you if you could sit at your kitchen table or someone else's kitchen table with one of the saints who has gone before us, and you would be kitchen table, counseled. Who. Who would you choose?
- [39:22]
Melissa Krueger
You're gonna laugh at who I would choose. I would choose because we've been reading Count It All, Joy. So I was thinking about this. I would wanna sit down with Helen Rosevier. And the reason why, if you read that little book, Count It All Joy. What I love about Helen is she is so quick to say how she didn't get it at first.
- [39:37]
Courtney Docter
I know.
- [39:38]
Melissa Krueger
So she makes me feel like, oh, she's human. She didn't just count it all Joy every time something horrible happened, yet she walked faithfully with the Lord and she. She fought for joy in it. But what about you? Who would you. Who would you wanna sit down with?
- [39:55]
Courtney Docter
This probably won't surprise you, Deborah. I want to sit down with the judge. The judge, like the Deborah. The Deborah. The Deborah. That's exactly. Yeah. I want to. I want. I want to know. I want to know more. Or maybe. Maybe it would be JL the 10th peg person. Like, I just want to know, I think you like the people who will.
- [40:15]
Melissa Krueger
Give you the stern rebuke. Courtney.
- [40:17]
Courtney Docter
I know, I know. It really, it's very on brand for me. That is that that all plays out very well. Well, okay. I this conversation is significant because this kind of convers, this kind of relationship is really important that we are all engaging in this type of robust, sharing our stories, sharing our struggles, speaking truth to each other kind of relationship. And so yeah, thank you. And we hope that you've enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition and that something has been helpful and spurred you on in your own life. If that is true, we would love for you to like it and subscribe to it or leave a comment, even consider supporting the work of TGC so we can make more content like this. But thank you for joining us and we will see you next time on the DEEP dish.
- [41:07]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.