Melissa Krueger (1:58)

Oh.

Jen Wilkin (1:59)

So I would come down, they stayed with us this summer, and I would come downstairs in the morning, he'd go, hi, Shugs.

Melissa Krueger (2:03)

Oh, I love it.

Courtney Docter (2:05)

It's the best. Mine's Cece. And the. There's one grandson that says cease. And I'm just like, perfect. I'm like, yeah, I'll take.

Jen Wilkin (2:13)

Yeah. Olivia calls me Shushu right now, so we'll take that.

Melissa Krueger (2:16)

Okay, I'm coming to y'. All for advice when I need a grandmother.

Courtney Docter (2:18)

Oh, we know your grandmother name. We'll tell.

Melissa Krueger (2:21)

This will be a later episode.

Jen Wilkin (2:23)

Perfect.

Courtney Docter (2:24)

Okay.

Melissa Krueger (2:24)

Today we are talking about the wisdom of quitting. And that seems kind of like maybe a counterintuitive topic. Normally it's like, oh, how can we do all these amazing things for God? What are you dreaming of doing? And now we're at the stage of life where maybe we say, what are you quitting? In fact. In fact, a mentor of mine, she said after 50, her question every year is, what is one thing I'm going to stop doing?

Jen Wilkin (2:49)

Oh, that's really good.

Courtney Docter (2:50)

Fascinating.

Melissa Krueger (2:51)

Yeah, I thought that was a fascinating thing. So, Jen, walk us through a decision you've had to make, something through the years you've had to stop doing, maybe so that it could open the door for you to do other things. But you just knew. Okay, I'm actually being called out of something.

Jen Wilkin (3:06)

Yeah, well, I mean, I have a fairly recent one. I had been working full time at my church. I was on staff at my church for 12 years total. And in my final iteration there, I had like 30 people in my downline that I was overseeing and, you know, just a really big ministry area. And at the same time, I had. My parents were aging. Like, I lost my mom while I was in that role and then started to multiply grandkids. All of a sudden, you know, kids were getting married. And it was just increasingly apparent to me that. That I needed to find anywhere to get margin. And it was hard, though, because, like, working in the local church meant a great deal to me. And, you guys know, like, it was a long trip for me to even finally be in a role where I felt like, yes, this is what I have wanted to do for so long. And so it was weird to be not that old and realize I think this is coming to an end. And I remember when I told the church, hey, I'm gonna step back, back from this role, they said, oh, you're retiring?

Courtney Docter (4:12)

I was like, ouch.

Jen Wilkin (4:14)

I know, right?

Courtney Docter (4:14)

I am not quite ready to retire.

Jen Wilkin (4:16)

No, I actually, this is so that I can pursue the things probably that only I can do. You know, that was what my good help who were helping me process the decision kept saying to me is, you're doing things in your role that only you can do in your role, but you're not in a role that only can be done by you.

Courtney Docter (4:35)

That's a good.

Melissa Krueger (4:36)

Oh, say that again. Yeah, say that again.

Jen Wilkin (4:38)

That there were aspects to how I was operating in my role. That only I could do as the person in that role, but that it was not a role that could only be done by me. And I kind of didn't want to hear that like everybody else. I wanted to feel a little bit like, oh, no. I mean, I'm really indispensable there, you know, because you're pouring so much energy into it.

Courtney Docter (4:56)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (4:57)

And. And then, you know, relationships with. With the people on my team, the people I'd worked with for a long time. I was a little worried maybe I'd never leave the house again once I wasn't going into work. And actually, that may be true, but it doesn't feel terrible at this point, so. Yeah, but I mean, it was a process. I would imagine you guys have a similar understanding of it.

Courtney Docter (5:19)

Yeah, well, even just that aspect of. There's loss and Is there grief with us?

Jen Wilkin (5:25)

Oh, my gosh, yes.

Courtney Docter (5:27)

There's the whole cycle of trying to kind of work through what it is to say no to something and to walk away, especially when you've poured yourself.

Jen Wilkin (5:35)

In and you've done it for a long time. And, you know, I know that, like, people are like, oh, you're not supposed to find your identity in your work. And I'm like, well, okay. I mean, I don't know that I would be doing the job the way that I want to if I wasn't really working. You know, I would. It really bothered me with motherhood. It was like, don't love your kids more than you love God, you know? And I was like, what? Can't I love my kids? Can't I love God by loving my kids? And I feel the same way about some of the ministry opportunities that have come my way. And. And so, no, it doesn't define who I am, but it does tend to define us for a season. And it's that whole trick of knowing, is this season over?

Melissa Krueger (6:14)

Yes.

Jen Wilkin (6:14)

Because they don't always end with a bang. Sometimes they sort of taper. Taper down.

Melissa Krueger (6:20)

Well, that's another question. Have you ever stayed too long, Courtney? Because that's a whole different question. Like, I felt like I had to make one transition at one point, and I so believed in what I was doing, but the signs were probably all around me that it was time to go. I just didn't want to go. So there can be. And that can sometimes lead to really negative things if you do stay in a role too long.

Jen Wilkin (6:44)

Wait, now, do you guys. How do. What's your relationship to change? Do you like it?

Courtney Docter (6:48)

That plays a part in. It doesn't it?

Melissa Krueger (6:50)

You like change.

Courtney Docter (6:51)

Well, I. I mean, I can't say I just love it, but I'm not change averse. Okay. You know, it doesn't like, I'm a.

Melissa Krueger (6:57)

Hobbit, you know, I need Gandalf to come and make me go on an adventure because I.

Courtney Docter (7:04)

Hilarious.

Jen Wilkin (7:06)

You're not like, we don't. Looking for the adventure. Yeah.

Courtney Docter (7:08)

And I would be like, Merryweather. And wait, what's Mary? The one Pippin that, you know, they like, chose to go on the adventure. Yeah. Because you wouldn't want to miss out sneaking behind.

Jen Wilkin (7:20)

I know.

Melissa Krueger (7:21)

It's so true.

Jen Wilkin (7:22)

I think that impacts the way we think about these moments. Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (7:26)

Yeah, it does. So in that. So that's. That's part of discernment. Right. Even knowing who you are. So how would you walk a younger woman through a decision? Yeah. And this is really a discernment thing. It's not just. It's not one size fits all. So we always say in these things, it's always good to talk to an older woman who actually knows you, but just general wisdom. How would you walk a younger woman through the decision to stop something that she actually loves? You know, that she's doing that she loves, but she's feeling like, oh, I don't know if I'm supposed to keep doing this or just. How do you do that? Do you make a pro con list? Practically.

Jen Wilkin (8:04)

It doesn't hurt.

Courtney Docter (8:05)

It doesn't hurt to do the pro con list. And definitely in the presence of many counselors that you are doing it within, you know, the context of community, inviting other people in, especially in your local church, church leaders, asking them to speak into it and showing them your pro con list and kind of looking for. You know, my husband and I talk a lot about looking for the confirmation of the body in our decisions. And. And we made a huge change in our early 40s. I mean, we say we sold the farm and moved to St. Louis to Semin. We literally sold the farm. And that was not a decision made lightly, but it was confirmed in so many different ways. And so I think you look for that. You ask the Lord to show you, and then you ask other people and then you look for the comfort. And we needed some. We needed to sell the farm. We needed to. There were some practical things that had to fall in place for the Lord to confirm that that was where we were supposed to be. And so it's not formulaic, but I do think there are certain things that we do as we're trying to discern Is this a time of ending and a time of starting? Time of saying no? Time of saying yes. Like, we have to. We have to do some of them. We have to pray about it. We have to ask other people, and we have to look at the way the circumstances are playing out.

Jen Wilkin (9:27)

I think you can also have some deal breakers. You know, sort of like, this is a definite off ramp for me. If this happens, then I know it's time to start triggering the off ramp, you know, But a lot of times those don't happen. And so then you're like, well, I guess, am I just supposed to die in this role or doing what I'm currently. Because I don't change, you know, I'm not looking to change things up. And it takes a lot of, you know, oh, yeah, it's time for me to actually make the move. And that's usually in the person of Jeff Wilkins saying, you've had three jobs for 10 years. When are you gonna have one or two? You know, that kind of a thing. I think you need a truth teller, right?

Melissa Krueger (10:03)

Yes.

Jen Wilkin (10:04)

Or more than one. And someone who's outside of the immediate situation, who can give more of an objective read on things. Because, like, in my. If I had written my pro con list, I would have needed honestly for it to be graded by my mentor.

Courtney Docter (10:17)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (10:17)

Who's like, this list is wrong. Okay.

Courtney Docter (10:21)

Explain that a little bit more because that's really helpful. Because sometimes we just do the pro con list.

Jen Wilkin (10:25)

Yeah. Because I think I would. I would overvalue some of the things I had on the pros and under undervalue, you know, sort of like diminish some of the cons because I'm invested in not changing anything. And so I needed to be nudged toward. Hang on, hang on. I need you to read this list again. You know, these. Some of these are really significant. There was some of that, but I. You know, the other thing that we did is Jeff and I would do anytime we've had a big decision, you know, where you're like, I think this might be ending, but I'm not sure is we would have sort of like a regularly scheduled touch base, you know, and it would be. It's not scientific, but it was like, how are you feeling compared to the last time we talked about this? Has it gotten better or has it gotten worse? And by that, that measure might be your stress level, you know, or your frustration level or your exhaustion level, you know, and just kind of like taking the temperature of it, especially, I think, when you're talking about church Work. And, you know, I was in a role in a. In a church one time where the frustration level just kept growing and growing. Growing to the point where I couldn't be a church member.

Melissa Krueger (11:34)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (11:34)

You know what I'm saying?

Melissa Krueger (11:35)

Yes.

Jen Wilkin (11:35)

Yes. And that's not good. And so either there needs to be a way to fix that or you gotta start looking.

Melissa Krueger (11:43)

I love what you said about taking the temperature at multiple occasions, because I'm sure we've all had days when we're like, I'm done. Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (11:50)

Yes.

Courtney Docter (11:51)

That's not the day to make a big decision. That's not the day to make the big decision.

Melissa Krueger (11:55)

It's over. I'm tired. I hate everyone and all the things. And so how do you. What would be some advice you would give even on how to know if you're just too busy? What if you've said yes to too many things? Because we all have that 10 tendency. Right. Like some of us, well, I fall in the people pleaser crowd. So it's not just that I don't like, change.

Courtney Docter (12:18)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (12:19)

I don't want to disappoint anyone.

Courtney Docter (12:22)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (12:23)

And so I can find that. I'm just busy with lots of good things.

Jen Wilkin (12:26)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (12:27)

And I, you know, so are there any measurements you take to say, okay, this is a sign that too many yeses have been given and some no's need to be given. I don't know if you have any. Like, for me, I have. I have some certain things I look to. And I'm like, oh, that's a sign.

Courtney Docter (12:43)

Yeah. I tend to think almost of life in like, concentric circles. And so the Lord, because he's given me a husband, so I have to.

Jen Wilkin (12:53)

You know, so gotta put him in there.

Courtney Docter (12:56)

And he's not optional. And then the children, like, he's given not. But everybody has their concentric circles. Right. My local church, you kind of move out. Right. But it's not trying to put me at the center of that. But what it's saying is, is my relationship with the Lord characterized by health, by intimacy, by flourishing? Is my relate. And then I move out. Is my relationship with the people that he's put in my life? So for me, it's my husband and. And then my children, is it characterized. Right. We all go through seasons where it might not be characterized by flourishing, but for the most part, am I spending the time it takes or am I pushing my relationship with God, my relationship with my family, my relationship with my local church out of the way so that I can go do something that's a that's a lot further out there in my, in my view of the concentric circles. And so sometimes it's just. Even the prioritization of the things that, that are the non negotiables. There are some things that we. They're not optional.

Melissa Krueger (13:54)

Yeah.

Courtney Docter (13:54)

And so most of what we're talking about are honestly optional.

Jen Wilkin (14:00)

What did you say? You said you had a way of thinking about this.

Melissa Krueger (14:03)

My first one is actually, am I not prioritizing time with the Lord? It's a sneaky little one.

Courtney Docter (14:08)

I know.

Melissa Krueger (14:09)

You know, cause you can. Oh, but what I'm doing so important, you know, I'm serving people or whatever. That's the first kind of check. The other one actually is Mike. I'm like you. Mike is really good one at telling me to say no, but he's also really good at pushing me out of the door. He's kind of the Gandalf to my Proto.

Courtney Docter (14:29)

Might not just be galvanizing because.

Melissa Krueger (14:34)

I can, you know, I can. There were, there were certain seasons of life, I would say, particularly when I had young children, I could have some fearful yeses, you know, and think, oh, I'm not supposed to do that right now or whatever. And he was like, you should totally do that. And so having that person who's telling you, yeah, go do it. But also I remember one time really distinctly and it was a really nice offer for someone to, to work on this series of books type thing. I mean, you think this might not come again? It was early on in publishing. I really didn't know how many offers I would have. You just don't know where you are. And so somebody came, offered this thing and he looked at me, he goes, do you really want to do that? It's not really your lane. And he was exactly right. And it was a good healthy no. And so having people who really know you and can say, say no. But sometimes I'll say this, some friends who are well meaning, I think want you just to say no all the time. Like they just want it. Like I think in the Christian we just want it to be easy for everyone. So are there times for sacrificial yeses? How. How do we just, you know, I.

Jen Wilkin (15:51)

Mean, I don't know. You're probably asking the wrong person. I'm still working on my nose. Look, I'm hopping.

Melissa Krueger (15:56)

I'm trying not to get out of.

Courtney Docter (15:58)

The shower question is one I keep getting asked.

Jen Wilkin (16:00)

Don't you? I just remember. Well, I think we would all three say we've had an experience of having too many good options, you know, at a weird stage of life and an unexpected too many good options. And I feel such a debt of gratitude to my mentor and my pastor, you know, for the last 17 years, who I could say, what do you think? I'd say they want me to do X, Y or Z? And he'd go, tell them no. Well, they want me to tell them no.

Courtney Docter (16:25)

Wow.

Jen Wilkin (16:26)

Tell them no, tell them no. But what if. And he'd say tell them no. Because he knew, you know, he had been in the same spaces and he understood. And I think, what would I have done if I hadn't had the voice of someone who was further along? And then it occurs to me, this is the case in any situation in life is who has been down this road before? And it doesn't mean that you always agree with the tell them no. There might be times where you go, I think I want to say yes to this. But knowing my personality, I need way more encouragement to say no than I do to say yes. And it sounds like you're maybe coming from. And a lot of this really is knowing your own disposition toward decision making.

Melissa Krueger (17:06)

That's right. That's right.

Courtney Docter (17:08)

Well, and I think that whole idea that women are saying this opportunity may never come again, even though maybe they know deep in their souls or they're having people say this is not a great time in your life to say yes to this. The fear of. But I want. This is the kind of thing I want to do. And if I don't say yes now. And so I think all of us could testify to the nose that if.

Jen Wilkin (17:32)

The Lord has it for you, it will find you.

Courtney Docter (17:35)

It's gonna come back. I mean, whatever it is that it's those fear based. I just kind of walked with a woman through this. Those fear based yeses are, are really worth stopping and saying. In fact, you know, one of my favorite. I mean, you've heard me say this a thousand times, but one of my favorite quotes is from. I think it's the leadership handbook Heifetson. We'll put it in the show notes. But it's leadership is learning to disappoint people at a rate they can absorb. It's true.

Jen Wilkin (18:04)

Right?

Melissa Krueger (18:04)

Say it again because I was laughing when you said it. Say it again.

Courtney Docter (18:07)

That leadership is learning to disappoint people at a rate they can absorb. And I think there's just. That was so freeing for me in leadership to say, I am going to disappoint you. I want to do it wisely. It doesn't all need to be in the same day. Like I don't have to disappoint everything about, you know, but, but that we slowly. Our nose are disappointments to some people. They want us to say yes to that. And so that, that confidence to say, I'm actually willing to disappoint you on this.

Jen Wilkin (18:35)

But I think if I were going to talk to younger me about this, what I would tell younger me is there are yeses and there are no's, but there are also not right nows. And a not right now is very different. It means at some point that's gonna be a yes. You know, but from what I can tell right now, when I think about that it feels more stressful than life giving. And when you are able to step out of a scarcity mindset around opportunities and realize, wait, the Lord will not give me a gift or a calling that he's going to let lie dormant like it will be used or that.

Courtney Docter (19:10)

He'S like, oh, if you said yes.

Jen Wilkin (19:13)

I could have used you. Now I don't know what to do. Yeah, I mean, think about, really think about how we paint the character of God when we say that, that he's. And this actually gets into a lot of like how we even think about the will of God for our lives. It's like you get this one decision point and if you blow it, well, that was your wood.

Courtney Docter (19:33)

Exactly. Exactly.

Jen Wilkin (19:34)

And that is just not. My pastor said something a couple weeks ago in a sermon. He said, what if the will of God for your life is not a dot but a circle? And I'm like, that is so great. You know, in other words, there might be a number of ways that things could go morally neutral decision points that you could just pick one and trust the Lord or say, I don't get to pick one right now and trust the Lord. And I just, I know I've lived long enough now to know in the seasons where I thought, but I'm not using X, Y or Z skill or gift, that I was actually growing internally in a way that meant when it was time to say yes, that those things were going to be used in the right season and in the right way.

Melissa Krueger (20:24)

Yeah. And I think we're all kind of thankful for quieter years.

Jen Wilkin (20:28)

Yes. Where they were thinking and ruminating and had time.

Melissa Krueger (20:32)

Time, you know, to develop. Have you ever seen an instance where your no allowed someone else to say yes and it actually was part of their sanctification? Does that make sense? I think we think, oh, but if I say no it won't happen. Yeah, but sometimes our no to to do something good creates space for someone else to say yes.

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Jen Wilkin (21:36)

Yeah. My yeses are always around, seizing control. And so when I have to say, you know, it's like, well, I'm going to do it because I'll do it better than you. And then when I, you know, when I'm at the brim and I have to say no and then someone else steps in, I'm like, shoot, they did it better than I would have done it. They were really, really great at it.

Courtney Docter (21:57)

Supposed to be doing it. Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (21:59)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (21:59)

Have you guys seen that? Please don't leave me out here alone.

Melissa Krueger (22:03)

Well, one thing I've loved, I remember when I used to. We would do adult Sunday school and which we have since always, like you Presbyterians.

Jen Wilkin (22:18)

Sorry, I'm fine.

Melissa Krueger (22:21)

And one thing I would always do, it was actually a way to bring other people along. I wouldn't ask them to teach the whole unit. Let's say it was eight weeks. But allowing two of those to be taught by a younger woman, giving her the space. She didn't have to develop the whole scope and sequence, but she could start the process then the next time around, letting her teach more. And I mean, to be honest, for me, this was helping me because I felt like I had too much to do in women women's ministry. But it takes time to develop other leaders. And it means actually looking at. I am worn out, I am exhausted. Who can I start to train so that they can help do some of this? So I felt like the no to teaching all eight weeks actually allowed someone else to be trained. So then eventually they can teach all eight weeks.

Courtney Docter (23:13)

And I think we see that in churches way too often where, you know, one woman kind of owns the whole thing. She's always, she hosts every, you know, shower, she teaches every Bible study. She. And it's like, man, make room. Make say notice of things.

Jen Wilkin (23:26)

Cause if she leaves, you know, well, if she Leaves shuts down, has to be rebuilt.

Courtney Docter (23:32)

There's no room for. And I always say, look for those entry points. And if you're. If you are invested, if you are embedded in the life of the church and you are serving, look for the places that are easy entry points. And so I remember saying to my team one time, we're having an event, and I said, you know, don't ask anybody on the leadership team to bring the brownies.

Melissa Krueger (23:53)

Yes.

Courtney Docter (23:53)

Well, I got the phone call who said, can you bring the brownies? And I said, no. And she said, well, I can't find anybody to bring the brownies. I said, well, then let me find somebody. So I went through the directory called. I mean, this is just God's grace. This is one of those stories where it all works out. You know, it's a great example because it worked out the way I wanted it to. But she burst into tears. This woman that I called and said, I have been looking for a way to serve. All I asked her to do was bring the brownies. But what she did was she showed up early and she helped set up and she built relationships. And three years later, she was president of the. Of the women's leadership team. Yeah, that's a really good story, right? It's a really good story. Yeah, they all go that way. If you just know when to say.

Melissa Krueger (24:31)

No, you just don't bake the brownies.

Courtney Docter (24:32)

Just don't make the brownies.

Jen Wilkin (24:34)

We talked about, like, mystery nose. I mean, we're talking about mystery nose, but what about, like, just personal life? No's, like, what about no's, like with your family or your, you know, neighbors or whatever? I mean, there are always a million things trying to find their ways onto our calendar. And do you have a process for making sure that your calendar stays.

Courtney Docter (24:55)

I say no to cooking.

Jen Wilkin (24:57)

Oh, nice.

Courtney Docter (24:59)

Consistently. That's a good no for me.

Jen Wilkin (25:02)

So not just brownies. It's all cooking that you refuse to do. Perfect.

Melissa Krueger (25:06)

I think you hit, actually on something I wanted to talk about, because one of my hardest is when I feel like I disappoint my kids.

Jen Wilkin (25:12)

Okay?

Melissa Krueger (25:13)

And let me say this. I'm actually not disappointing them. I'm disappointing my own version of the mother. I think I should be.

Jen Wilkin (25:20)

Let's be honest, the idealized version.

Melissa Krueger (25:22)

I'm not living up to Melissa's version of motherhood, which. Which often involves the food put before them in the lunches that they went to school with. And so it feels like I failed them with my. No. Like, being, you know, like they Started packing their lunches way early, which means none of them eat vegetables on a regular basis. And it feels like, you know, a sense of failure. And I've had to say sometimes to myself, it was actually a category I was okay failing at. Yeah, like we, we can't say yes to everything. I wasn't okay failing at getting the word into my kids lives. But sometimes we can't do everything even with our kids. And what I can say, I'm thankful to look back and say things I thought were gonna be failures. Like when I started working, I went back to work sooner than I would have liked in my ideal motherhood scenario. And so I felt that rub. But my kids would all say to me, they say to me, now you having other things you were about actually helped me learn independence. I couldn't see the beginning to the end. The Lord was actually doing something good for my kids by me not being able to give them every. Yes.

Jen Wilkin (26:39)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (26:40)

And, but, but I think we're okay with that. When it comes to yeah, you can't have reach every toy. We're totally fine with no. But when it involves, oh, I missed that sporting event because I was at a ministry event or I was doing something else, that's, those are hard, hard things to miss.

Courtney Docter (26:55)

Or I missed that ministry event because I was at the supporting event. Like it's not formulaic. It's not like, oh, if it's a church, it's always the right. Yes. I mean, I think sometimes the call is to, yeah, it's that tension. Like sometimes you tell your kids, I'm, I'm not gonna be home for two hours because this is a really important discipleship opportunity. And other times you tell the person, I'm sorry I can't meet with you tonight because I need to be home. So it's not formulaic.

Jen Wilkin (27:17)

One of the most famous Wilkin family nos was when our kids were little. We put them in Awana's, you know, scripture memory. That, who doesn't want that for their kids?

Courtney Docter (27:27)

Can't say no to that.

Jen Wilkin (27:27)

But they weren't going to bed until like 9 o' clock on a Wednesday night. And Thursdays we were brutal. And so we pulled the kids out of scripture memory. You know why? Because we hate the Bible.

Melissa Krueger (27:39)

Well, I mean, you're not big on biblical literacy.

Jen Wilkin (27:42)

All the other parents were just like, what is the matter with you? You know, and so that was a, that was one of our probably most memorable ones. But I think there are other like softer ones that maybe no one outside of your Home is super aware of things. Like I remember thinking my house is just not going to be as clean as maybe it was in a former season of life. And I'm going to need to be okay with that because I'm going to lose my mind if I'm trying to manage something that I'm really the only one recognizing. I'm the one who is wrapped around the axle about this. My 4 year old does not care if the house is spotless. That's me. And it was going to impact my relationship. You know that when your stress level shoots up, I think that's with your concentric circles. It's like say even for the sake of argument that everything fits on the calendar. But if I'm a terrible human trying to manage the calendar, then it doesn't all fit on the calendar. But it's hard, especially because we so often are comparing ourselves to someone else's capacity or someone else's commitments or the.

Courtney Docter (28:47)

Capacity that they're highlighting on social media.

Jen Wilkin (28:50)

Well, right. Well, like people will say to me, how did you write Bible studies when your kids were little? And I'm like, they don't have baby books.

Courtney Docter (28:57)

Right?

Jen Wilkin (28:57)

My kids don't have baby books.

Courtney Docter (29:00)

Mine don't either.

Jen Wilkin (29:00)

Sorry, but I wasn't reading Bible studies either.

Melissa Krueger (29:02)

I just have them. But they never look at them.

Jen Wilkin (29:05)

So good choice. I wrote stuff for them. But Calvin's like, did you take one picture of me as a baby? You know, and there were. We just.

Courtney Docter (29:13)

Right.

Jen Wilkin (29:13)

There were, there were always. There were trade offs.

Melissa Krueger (29:16)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (29:16)

And but you know, I think we also forget that like our family get to see the whole sweep of our lives and we feel like we'll be judged against one moment or one scene season or one thing we said no to is going to be the thing they're always going to remember. And our relationships with our family, with our children or their parents with siblings, they're the sum of a thousand cumulative events. And so. But we tend to be really hard on ourselves for the one or two things that we, we left undone or over committed to or whatever said no to.

Melissa Krueger (29:52)

I think you hit on a really good thing there, which is another sign like road post. If I am a terrible human being. Meaning, and what we mean really by that, if there's no fruit in our good works. So you can bear like good works, but they have no fruit. There's no fruitfulness in them. Meaning there's no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control is not being born. That's a sign that there needs to be a no. Somewhere I would say something's wrong because the good work might there. But it actually says bearing fruit in every good work. And so it can look like, oh, but I'm doing all this important stuff. You know, I'm volunteering at the church, I'm helping at the school. I'm taking, you know, food to the soup kitchen. I'm doing all this, but we're miserable to be around.

Courtney Docter (30:45)

Well, and that was another one of my concentric circles is who am I in the kitchen when I'm making dinner and nobody watching? Well, yeah, the few times I make dinner and, you know, who am I to my. The people that are in that room. Am I a jerk because I'm trying to go do something else? Because that's another place. What is our private, you know, our private hidden faithfulness. Like, not just our. Look what I'm doing where everybody can see the things that are on the calendar that you're out. That you're out doing. So.

Melissa Krueger (31:14)

Yeah.

Courtney Docter (31:16)

Yeah. What would you guys say about the role of social media in our yeses and our no?

Jen Wilkin (31:22)

It's not a problem for me. I don't know if it's a problem.

Melissa Krueger (31:24)

For you guys, but I'm kind of terrified when you really. Yeah, I. I mean, to look at how many hours it actually has a record.

Jen Wilkin (31:34)

Yeah.

Courtney Docter (31:35)

Oh, yeah.

Jen Wilkin (31:36)

If thou Lord kept a record of sins and then every week it pops.

Courtney Docter (31:41)

Up on your phone. This is how many hours you spent.

Melissa Krueger (31:43)

You know, I probably silence that little voice popping up.

Courtney Docter (31:46)

But how many things do we say no to? Because we've said the yes to the scrolling or then even the. The images of how, you know, the person who has their life, I mean, they, they have the chickens, they make the sourdough. They look great. They're. They can. They can, you know, teach you how to stay fit and do your hair and do your. And do the chickens and do the kids and do. It's everything. And then you think, what are they saying no to in order to perpetuate that particular narrative that none of us can live up to?

Melissa Krueger (32:18)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (32:18)

Well.

Melissa Krueger (32:18)

And the problem with social media, right, you see a little glimpse into all these different people's lives, and then it's just. You kind of walk away feeling like a collective failure. Oh, I'm supposed to do that eating program and I'm supposed to do, you know, that sourdough bread or whatever it's. It's going to be. And then that workout thing that she's talking about and make sure I have that new, new purse for the season, because that's happening. And so, I mean, how do we battle that? That is a real thing in our culture. I think that makes you feel busy. It's almost like it's calling out to you. And in a lot of ways, with false promises, if you have this, you know, then your life will be settled. I mean, that's what marketing's kind of trying to do to you. You know, pull you in and say, you really need this to have a satisfying life. How do we battle that lie?

Jen Wilkin (33:16)

Well, I think like a word I've learned to look for and be like, nope, is it says the viral fill in the blank. You know, like the viral recipe or the viral cleanse or the viral thing to hang your wreath on this Christmas or whatever it is. Because what they're implying is everybody's doing this.

Melissa Krueger (33:33)

Yes.

Jen Wilkin (33:34)

And then I'm like, right back in middle school again, you know, where I'm in a. I'm supposed to chase what everybody is doing. Well, if it's viral, it must be amazing. Yeah. And so I think some of it is. I do think some people first. I think some people are better at this than others. And so, again, self awareness is key. Right. Like, I don't feel a strong sense of, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. And so I feel like I can kind of like duck in and peek at some of it and then be like, y' all crazy, or, oh, I will buy this one little thing here, you know, and there are times when I feel like I'm more susceptible to the pull of it than to. Than not. And a lot of that depends on my state of mind. And so I do, again, like, the action is interesting to me, but the motive is more interesting to me. And so I think when I'm using it sort of to self soothe, because I do think about how you can find these historic images of people all on the subway in 1880 and no one is talking to each other. They're all reading the paper. And I think about how a lot of my social media use mimics what reading the paper used to be.

Melissa Krueger (34:40)

That's right.

Jen Wilkin (34:41)

And so it's not inherently bad. It's what I need from it. And depending on the day, what I need from it might be innocuous or it might be potentially harmful. So.

Courtney Docter (34:55)

But the way it impacts our decision making. Well, yeah, the way it impacts. Are going to say yes or no to. And what we even feel like we have the freedom.

Jen Wilkin (35:05)

It's vying for our finite resources. And we, We. But it gives the. The implication. It makes us think that they are not finite. I want all of your time, and you've got plenty. I want all of your money, you've got plenty.

Courtney Docter (35:18)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (35:18)

Well, I think it's interesting. We often think of budgeting money.

Courtney Docter (35:21)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (35:22)

But we think of time as a renewable resource.

Jen Wilkin (35:26)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (35:27)

And it's actually. You can actually lose all your money and gain money.

Jen Wilkin (35:31)

You can get it back.

Melissa Krueger (35:32)

You can't get time back. Never get the time back. So are there any verses that y' all found that really speak that kind of form, a check on your heart when you're thinking about things like time and stewardship of that time?

Courtney Docter (35:46)

Yeah, I think in light of this conversation, knowing, discerning, trying to figure out what to say yes and no to. I mean, Ecclesiastes 3, just the whole list of. There is a time for this and a time for that. And there are. They're. They're positioned against each other. And so verse three, a time to tear down and a time to build. And I think, just even as we're thinking about what we're saying yes to and what we're saying no to, that. That there is a time for both. That's. It's not formulaic. We keep saying that, but there is a time to say yes, and there is a time to say no. And it could be for the exact same thing. And so even in your life, it might be. It's not the time for you to say yes. And maybe in someone else's life, it is. It is the time to say yes for the exact same thing. And so that. That freedom, even as you were saying the dot in the circle, I had a friend who said it's. A lot of us tend to view God's will like a maze, and we've got to figure out, almost like a puzzle, like, am I supposed to turn right here or left here? How do I get, you know, to the end of this thing? And. And he said, you know, it's really more like a big field that this. It's the same thing, the circle.

Melissa Krueger (36:50)

There's that.

Courtney Docter (36:51)

That expanse of freedom within God's will. Like, we know God's will for us first. Thessalonians 4. Three is our sanctification. And so, you know, there are. There are things that are outside of God's will. Right. And we know that because we have his word, but within that, there is the freedom to discern and to. And he wants us to pray about it. He wants us to talk to other believers. He wants us to Be dependent on each other in this process of knowing when to say yes or no. But even in Ecclesiastes, like it's a time for both of them. What about you, Jen?

Jen Wilkin (37:27)

I mean, I always think about Ephesians 5, 16, which I had to memorize to go to summer camp. So that means I probably know it in the King James, but it's be careful then how you live. Not as unwise, but as wise. Redeeming the time for the days are evil. I think that the newer translations say making the most of the time or making the best use of the time, which indicates that there are better and worse ways to use our time, which I think is what we get into when people are talking about what's God's will for my life. And I wanna choose the thing that's the best. I wanna maximize my time. But human decision making doesn't really work like that. And I feel a lot of comfort in remembering the times where I have not made the best use of the time and the Lord still sanctified me. And so I do like just remembering that bad decision making as a believer is never a deal breaker. It can sometimes be the very means by which our sanctification occurs. And not only that, good decision making doesn't always yield good fruit. It can yield self righteousness. And so I just think that we can't make the assumption. I often think that we reduce the will of God to the gospel of good decision making, which is a false gospel. It's karma.

Courtney Docter (38:40)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (38:41)

And so I think there's a lot to be said for like, oh, I do want to redeem the time. But that doesn't mean that I always make the right choice. It means that if I make a choice that turns out to have not been great, then I seek wisdom again and I look for how to live in light of it.

Melissa Krueger (38:58)

I think that's a good point because it also you can actually make the exact right choice and everything go wrong. That's right. And I think we're really uncomfortable with that. We wanna find out what God's will is. Cause then he's in a bargain with us. But now you gotta make sure it's gonna be okay.

Jen Wilkin (39:18)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (39:19)

Rather than listen to him say, hey, don't fear, go forward. You don't know how it's gonna turn out. I will be with you wherever you go.

Courtney Docter (39:27)

And that's true in the yeses and the no's. Right?

Melissa Krueger (39:29)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (39:30)

My mom used to always say, I don't want dog on my mom. She was lovely. But she would always say with decisions like check your peace meter. Do you feel peace about it? And I'm like, I think is really sweet, but sometimes you feel no peace. And you know, it's the exact thing you should do, you know. And I always think about like the life of Christ. He made every right choice and look what happened to him.

Melissa Krueger (39:52)

That's right.

Jen Wilkin (39:52)

So the idea that. And it. That is not to dismiss the wisdom tradition that says, when you choose well, it will go well for you. But not universally so we don't. There's not a. God is not. God is not obligated to respond to your good behavior with, with some. Oh, and now everything's going to go smooth.

Courtney Docter (40:15)

Well, and what it will go well for you means God gets to define that, not us. So we look at that and we're like, oh, it's going to go well for me. Like, I know what I mean.

Jen Wilkin (40:25)

Let me just give some letters for that.

Courtney Docter (40:27)

Let me talk about what that's going to look like. And God's like, no, actually what's. What's going to go well for you.

Jen Wilkin (40:32)

By going badly for you. Yes.

Courtney Docter (40:34)

You're going to be sanctified in the process.

Melissa Krueger (40:36)

Yes, that's right. And, and then in a lot of these verses that we even looked at, one thing we did we can say is that choosing to walk in opposition to God's ways, while he of course is full of mercy and grace, in some ways it's the biggest waste of your time.

Jen Wilkin (40:51)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (40:52)

I mean like, we can just flat out say sin is always going to look enticing. I love, you know, precious remedies against Satan's devices where he says Satan shows the bait and hides the hook. And I think that's a lot of the temptations, they're not actually like sinful sometimes. I mean like, absolutely, like, oh, go have an affair. But it can just be squandering because your time is against sloth. Yeah, Sloth.

Jen Wilkin (41:22)

I mean, you know, we really haven't touched on sort of how decision making changes over the course of a lifetime too. Because in your earlier years you're faced with a million decisions and in your latter years you have very few people.

Melissa Krueger (41:34)

Want, like, people are like, what are you good for anymore?

Jen Wilkin (41:37)

Yeah, yeah, seriously. But you become obsolete. The end. Thank you for joining us. No, but if you think about how, you know, when someone knows they don't have a lot of time left, like say they get a diagnosis and this is actually, it's a. They've done studies on this. They undergo the Narrowing of priorities. If you were told you only have a year to live, you would know exactly how to clear your calendar. Exactly. And so I don't think it's a bad mental exercise to sort of say, okay, well, what if I didn't have a lot of time left? What would I change? It doesn't mean you would change everything if you literally only had a year, but I think it can help. And I also saw a thing, you know, on Instagram where I was not wasting my time. And she was talking about minimalism, you know, like. Like Maria. Maria Condoing. Marie Kondoing. What's her name?

Courtney Docter (42:31)

Marie. The sparking joy. I don't know.

Jen Wilkin (42:34)

Yeah. Getting your house decluttered is what it was about. And she said she'd been asking the wrong question, that the question she'd been asking was, do I need this? And the right question was, can I live without this? Because she'd look at, you know, all these and be like, yeah, I could live without that. Yeah, I could live without that. It was just a different way. And I thought, what if we did that with our calendars? You know, like, yeah, I'm doing it, but could I live without it? Yes. And then in many cases, you start to go, not only could I. I really want to. It can be really clarifying.

Melissa Krueger (43:04)

I think one thing I'm thankful for both of you, you're both kind of one season ahead of me, and you really are.

Courtney Docter (43:11)

I don't think it's a whole season. I don't think it's a whole. I don't think it's a whole season. Yeah, I wasn't to.

Melissa Krueger (43:19)

Y' all are so much older.

Courtney Docter (43:20)

And.

Melissa Krueger (43:23)

What I will say, you're just, you know, kind of like when you have kids that are three and someone has kids who are eight, that. That one season better should.

Jen Wilkin (43:32)

Receives it in the name of the Lord. How about you, Cece?

Courtney Docter (43:34)

CC Takes it.

Melissa Krueger (43:35)

I'm in preschool. Y' all are in elementary school.

Courtney Docter (43:37)

Okay.

Melissa Krueger (43:38)

That type thing. Maybe third. It's been really nice to be able to call you guys and say, hey, what do you think about this? You know, and because all of us are in certain seasons. And I remember you've said to me, because I've. I'm about to. I'm on the edge of the emptiness.

Jen Wilkin (43:57)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (43:57)

And you're like, things are really going to change next year. You're going to see that differently next year. And so I would just give an encouragement to anyone listening in your local life, maybe look for someone kind of that. Not one Whole season.

Courtney Docter (44:12)

Just a few little years. Just a few little years.

Melissa Krueger (44:15)

That next moment.

Jen Wilkin (44:16)

And.

Melissa Krueger (44:16)

And just ask that wisdom in person, because what do you wish you had said no to? And the season just passed.

Courtney Docter (44:24)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (44:25)

And. And that it's still going to be different because we're all living different lives, but we really do need one another.

Courtney Docter (44:31)

That's a great question, though. What do you wish you had said no to? I really like that.

Melissa Krueger (44:34)

Yeah.

Jen Wilkin (44:35)

Yeah. And also, it could be a parent. Who's the person that you need to go talk to? I just. I think I. I was not quick to go and have those conversations with my parents, and it turned out they knew a whole lot of stuff. So it may be a mentor or it may be, like someone you're actually related to who's lived life longer than you, who knows you really, really well.

Melissa Krueger (44:56)

They really do know.

Jen Wilkin (44:57)

Honestly, my dad has been a huge help to me just because he knows me.

Courtney Docter (45:02)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (45:02)

That's right.

Jen Wilkin (45:03)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (45:04)

That's great. Well, Jen, thank you for being here with us.

Jen Wilkin (45:07)

There's nowhere I'd rather be.

Melissa Krueger (45:11)

On the deep dish, and we like to close our session with a deep dish question that kind of gets into your life. And so where is a place if you could go back to and visit? So, like, somewhere you said yes to, where would you say yes to again? Where would you want to go back?

Jen Wilkin (45:28)

You know, because I've been. I have not. Not stopped talking about it since we've been together, but I just got back from a trip to Ireland and we got a house on the north coast, which I really think. I kind of don't want to tell everybody because I don't want everybody to go there.

Melissa Krueger (45:42)

We will not put the Airbnb on the show. Notes.

Jen Wilkin (45:45)

Yeah. What is so great about it is you just feel like you're at the edge of the world all by yourself. And we rented a house on the north coast. You could see Scotland from the house. And we just stared at the waves, Jeff and I, and drank coffee and it was just wonderful. And I would go back there and. A heartbeat. You guys want to come? Let's go.

Courtney Docter (46:05)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (46:05)

Yes. Let's go. Us. We can record podcasts there.

Jen Wilkin (46:08)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (46:09)

Or not. Or just. Or we could just sit and stare at us.

Jen Wilkin (46:12)

Look at Instagram.

Melissa Krueger (46:16)

Well, this has been such a good conversation. Thank you both. And it's good to say yes to things like that, because we do need to say yes to rest in our lives. We didn't even get to Sabbath. We'll sa that for another conversation, but thanks for joining us for this episode of the Deep Dish, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.