Mentoring in Real Life

Summary

The Deep Dish Podcast: Episode Summary - "Mentoring in Real Life"

Release Date: March 6, 2025

Hosts: Melissa Krueger and Courtney Doctor
Guests: Vanessa K. Hawkins and Jen Wilkin

---

In the "Mentoring in Real Life" episode of The Deep Dish podcast by The Gospel Coalition, hosts Melissa Krueger and Courtney Doctor delve into the profound and practical aspects of mentoring and discipleship within the Christian community. Joined by esteemed guests Vanessa K. Hawkins and Jen Wilkin, the episode explores the biblical foundations, personal experiences, and actionable steps to foster meaningful mentoring relationships that transcend superficial interactions.

---

1. Defining Mentoring and Discipleship

Melissa Krueger initiates the conversation by distinguishing between mentoring and discipleship, prompting Vanessa and Jen to share their first impressions of these concepts.

• Vanessa K. Hawkins (01:40): "Coffee shops."
• Jen Wilkin (01:42): "Well, because by coffee is..."
• Melissa Krueger (01:45): "Where Jesus discipled. That's why we in a coffee shop."

This lighthearted exchange sets the stage for a deeper exploration. Vanessa elaborates on the distinction:

• Vanessa K. Hawkins (02:16): "Discipleship is distinctly Christian... causing Christ to be formed in you... mentoring is helping someone along that path, cheering them on."

Jen adds nuance by emphasizing the "life on life" aspect of mentoring:

• Jen Wilkin (03:45): "It's not formulaic. Discipleship isn't a one-size-fits-all; it incorporates best practices while allowing for personal relationships and growth."

2. The Biblical Foundation of Mentoring

The discussion pivots to the biblical basis for mentoring, highlighting Jesus' model of discipleship.

• Unknown Speaker (02:38): "Countless times in scripture do we see Jesus creating belonging before there's belief."
• Ian Wilkin (12:00): "Jesus lived with 12 disciples, demonstrating life-to-life relationships."

Vanessa reflects on her early mentorship experiences, drawing parallels to Jesus' approach:

• Vanessa K. Hawkins (12:19): "My first mentor was a high school math teacher who lived her Christian life... she was mentoring without even calling herself a mentor."

Jen shares a personal story about her grandmother's silent yet impactful mentorship:

• Unknown Speaker (14:31): "Watching her faithfulness in prayer and seeing her persevere shaped my own spiritual habits."

3. Personal Stories of Mentoring

Jen Wilkin recounts her experience with a dedicated children's minister, underscoring the importance of intentional mentorship.

• Jen Wilkin (16:19): "She saw something in me and invested her time, coaching me through challenges... she is still my mentor and friend."

Melissa shares her approach to fostering mentorship within Bible study groups:

• Melissa Krueger (10:09): "I asked older women to share testimonies on how God's word sustained them through tough seasons, enriching our Bible study experience."

4. Practical Steps for Building Mentoring Relationships

The hosts and guests offer actionable advice for both mentors and mentees seeking to cultivate effective discipleship relationships.

For Younger Women Seeking Mentors:

• Jen Wilkin (42:28): "Be specific in your request. Instead of a vague ask, approach with a clear intention, such as seeking guidance on marriage or parenting."
• Vanessa K. Hawkins (42:40): "Consider starting with mundane interactions that can organically develop into deeper spiritual conversations."

For Older Women Offering Mentorship:

• Melissa Krueger (48:41): "Show up in the spaces where younger women are present, such as small groups or church events, to build relationships naturally."
• Jen Wilkin (43:59): "Set clear boundaries and expectations from the outset to prevent misunderstandings and ensure a healthy mentoring dynamic."

5. Avoiding Common Pitfalls in Mentoring

The conversation addresses challenges that can arise in mentorship, offering strategies to maintain constructive and supportive relationships.

• Jen Wilkin (38:04): "Lead with questions rather than advice. Encourage mentees to explore their own solutions through thoughtful inquiry."
• Vanessa K. Hawkins (30:22): "Be wary of mentoring approaches that present an idealized version of Christian life. Authenticity is key."
• Jen Wilkin (49:45): "Balance offering advice with encouraging independent thought. Use personal experiences as data points, not prescriptive solutions."

6. The Essential Nature of Discipleship

The hosts and guests emphasize that discipleship is not merely an optional aspect of Christian life but a fundamental component of following Christ.

• Jen Wilkin (34:49): "Discipleship is not optional. When Christ called His disciples, He transformed their approach to discipleship entirely."
• Melissa Krueger (34:40): "We are all discipleship factories, being formed and forming others in diverse ways."

7. Integrating Mentoring with the Great Commission

Discussing the broader mission of the church, the panel underscores that mentoring is integral to fulfilling the Great Commission.

• Jen Wilkin (22:49): "The Great Commission involves making disciples, which encompasses both evangelism and ongoing discipleship."
• Melissa Krueger (27:02): "Discipleship relationships should reflect the Gospel, focusing on forming individuals into the likeness of Christ."

8. Recommended Resources

Towards the end of the episode, Melissa highlights valuable resources to aid in mentoring:

• Melissa Krueger (21:21): "Our book, 'Growing Together: Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests,' is a practical guide for fostering biblically grounded mentoring relationships."
• Vanessa K. Hawkins (21:58): "My childhood memory of my father tethering two trees serves as a metaphor for how mentors stand beside mentees, allowing God to facilitate growth."

9. Closing Thoughts and Encouragement

The episode concludes with heartfelt encouragement for listeners to engage in mentoring, whether as mentors or mentees.

• Melissa Krueger (51:04): "These relationships are mutually edifying. We are growing together."
• Jen Wilkin (34:49): "Discipleship is not optional; it's a call to transform how we live and lead in the faith."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa K. Hawkins
  [02:16]: "Discipleship is distinctly Christian... causing Christ to be formed in you... mentoring is helping someone along that path, cheering them on."

• Jen Wilkin
  [03:45]: "It's not formulaic. Discipleship isn't a one-size-fits-all; it incorporates best practices while allowing for personal relationships and growth."

• Melissa Krueger
  [21:21]: "Our book, 'Growing Together: Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests,' is a practical guide for fostering biblically grounded mentoring relationships."

• Jen Wilkin
  [42:28]: "Be specific in your request. Instead of a vague ask, approach with a clear intention, such as seeking guidance on marriage or parenting."

---

Conclusion

"Mentoring in Real Life" serves as a comprehensive guide for Christians seeking to deepen their discipleship practices. Through personal anecdotes, biblical insights, and practical advice, The Deep Dish emphasizes the transformative power of genuine, life-on-life mentoring relationships. Listeners are encouraged to both receive and offer mentorship with intentionality, authenticity, and a focus on fostering spiritual growth in alignment with the Gospel.

Transcript

[Melissa Krueger]

Hey, friends, we'd love for you to join us for a live recording of the deep dish at TGC25 in Indianapolis, April 22nd through 24th. Meet new friends and join us as we discuss why Bible study in the local church matters. Register [e-mail] TGC25. We can't wait to see you there again. That's TGC.org TG TGC25.

[Jen Wilkin]

The majority of mentoring is bearing witness.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

We need to see the gospel lived out with flesh on it.

[Melissa Krueger]

I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, how many, countless, countless times in scripture do we see Jesus creating, belonging before there's belief?

[Jen Wilkin]

Are we gonna hug right now? We'll hug after.

[Melissa Krueger]

Welcome to the Deep Dish of Pot podcast, where we love talking about having deep conversations about deep truths. And I'm really excited about our conversation today. It's something that is very near and dear to my heart. But also the two guests that we have with us have extensively participated and thought about this. So I think we're all in for a treat and a learning experience. But we are joined today by two of our dear friends, Vanessa K. Hawkins. Dr. Vanessa K. Hawkins. And Jen Wilkins. So thanks for joining us today to talk about mentoring, discipleship. So I want to start off, Melissa, when you hear the word words, mentoring, discipleship, what is the first image that comes to mind?

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Coffee shops.

[Melissa Krueger]

Coffee shops.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's the only place you can do it. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, because by coffee is.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, that's where Jesus discipled. That's why we In a coffee shop.

[Unknown Speaker]

Legal stimulants.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Exactly.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, what we want to do today is take the idea of discipleship and mentoring out of the coffee shop or expand it beyond the coffee shop. So to start off with. Who can explain to us what we mean when we say mentoring or discipling someone? What does it even mean?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, when I. When I think of mentoring, it's, you know, it can be Christian, but discipleship is distinctly Christian. It's distinctly causing. I think of Paul causing Christ to be formed in you, laboring over one until Christ is formed in them. And I think of discipleship as being, you know, helping people to grow in the knowledge of the Lord, wisdom, you know, the wisdom of the Lord, likeness of the Lord, affections for the Lord until we see the Lord is how I think about it. So mentoring is helping someone along that path, cheering them on.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's good.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love that. I love the distinction between mentoring and discipleship there. The discipleship is Distinctly biblical.

[Jen Wilkin]

The mentorship piece to me is where it gets life on life in a way that it might not always in all discipleship spaces. Because I think if we only perceive discipleship to happen in one to one or three to one or whatever the number is that we would equate mentoring to, then some discipleship functions might not be accomplished to the fullest degree. But when we understand that it has to have an element of a life on life piece to it, that's where mentoring comes in for me. So you might have a classroom setting where you learn things that you. You would never pick up in a mentoring relationship, but you need mentoring spaces to hold you accountable, to reinforce, spur you onward in your learning and your growth, and that the learning moves from head to heart to hands.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's good.

[Melissa Krueger]

It almost sounded like you were saying it's not formulaic. Is that what you're saying, Jen? That discipleship's not formulaic?

[Jen Wilkin]

I actually would say there are aspects of discipleship that can slash. Should be formulaic. There are best practices, and then that there are other aspects to it that are not. So when it becomes the personal life on life piece because it's two individuals or whatever that number is for that smaller setting, it is going to look different because personalities come into play and strengths and weaknesses come into play. But I think there are best practices associated with learning outcomes with. So like, you know, you look at the theological and biblical literacy crisis that the church finds itself in, you could argue that we got there because there was an overemphasis on one to one formation, and someone who had not themselves received the good deposit cannot turn and give it to someone else. Right. And so that's why those two things need to live together. You could also have the opposite problem. And I would imagine there have been generations of Christians where that has been the case, where there's been too much of an EMP on just the knowledge piece at the expense of the. The accountability and the life on life piece. I would argue that the stage that we're in right now has been a neglect of this and that this, the mentoring space has been defined strictly in relational terms. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

You end up at the coffee shop and you just talk about how busy you were.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I mean.

[Jen Wilkin]

Or you're talking about your sin pattern. I mean, they're not. It's not that they are bad things that are happening. It's just that it's an incomplete. Yeah, ye.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah, yeah. That's good. I think of discipleship as the big umbrella of Spiritual growth, you know, towards becoming like Jesus. And mentoring is one aspect of that. So I've been discipled by hearing the Word preach to church. I've been discipled by sitting in Sunday school rooms. I've been discipled, you know, in so many. I've been discipled sometimes just by something someone said one time or in my presence. Whereas I do think of mentoring being that, hey, for a season. I always like to stress. Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

For a season.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Season. Yeah, we're going to practice.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

We're going to walk side by side. The image I like is actually one that came in my childhood. I remember my dad tethering two trees beside one another. And because one was a young tree and it had. It had been bent over in a storm, but I'm pretty sure we, the children in the neighborhood were also jumping on it because it was very. To keep springboarding off of it and. But he took it and he tethered it to a big stronger tree. And I like that image because all the big tree is doing is standing beside. Standing beside and saying, after years of. Of rain and sun and growth, I have strength to offer just by standing beside. So I'm not making you grow. You know, I'm not in some sense the. The main actor here. I'm just standing beside. But the sun and the rain are what are going to grow you. And so God's doing the growing.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Right. But we. And say, hey, these are the things. Through a lot of seasons I've weathered and I can, I can help you.

[Melissa Krueger]

So typically we think an older or a more mature. It doesn't have to be age wise. Right. It's the older in the face.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Person. Yep. Pouring into. And I love to think about even just what you were saying, Vanessa, that idea that it's moving towards being formed more into Christ likeness. We're moving towards all of us in this relationship that we're in that we're all moving towards spiritual maturity. And so why do we do this? Why is this. It's such a part or should be, or we hear about it. Maybe we have never been or. Or been in this type of relationship. But why. Why do we hear about it so much? What's the impetus behind it?

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Jesus.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's a great answer. Wow, Melissa, that's a great podcast. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Y. Well, in. In a very real sense, Jesus. Well, but I mean in here. But here's how she cannot. Yeah, but here's how I would like expand that. Like, I think we think mentoring is. I've got to have this whole skill set and I've got to have this, you know, and I've got to be able to do this better than that person and all that. And it's not that there's nothing to that, but the majority of mentoring is bearing witness. It's bearing witness to the faithfulness of God. And so it's being able to say to someone who is in a season of difficulty, hey, yep, I've had that. Or I haven't had that season, but I've had other seasons like that. And it won't last forever. You know, it's that whole I'm further along than you are, I can predict the future for you a little bit. And, or, you know, here's how the Lord grew me through that. And it's. Or, or, yeah, I know this is hard, but it's going to be worth it. Like I think about in the B study space, that's a lot of what I'm trying to do is say, I know you don't want to do this. I know you think this is hard, but it gets easier and it's worth it. And, and, and I'm, I'm, I hope I am the embodied proof that that is true, you know, and so I think there's depending on what your, your lane is. We don't all do the same things. We don't all provide the same mentoring value to someone in a relationship. It's being able to testify. It's bearing witness to that God does do what he do. And I can point to things in my life if you can't. Yet I can show you things in my life to say that it's true. And this is what Christ. Yeah, Christ did perfectly.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. I mean it's, I'm just going back to your image. It's that big tree standing there bearing witness that you know of God's faithfulness and that you too can grow, you can get through this. You're leaned over now. You know, there's some things that I can show you in my life, you know, that the Lord has done that will also be useful to you. And so I just, I love that imagery. So thank you for that.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know how the gospel.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's beautiful.

[Melissa Krueger]

Packs all these different. One of the most beautiful things that I've ever seen. And it was, it, it was something I just stumbled into. It wasn't something I did intentionally, but leading Bible study, I asked, I asked a group of older women to share a 10 minute testimony at the beginning of every Bible study. And the framework was share how the word of God sust change you through a really tough season. And it was one of the most beautiful semesters we ever had in Bible study. I can't remember what we were studying. It was a letter that Paul had written towards the end of his life. So that was why we kind of framed it like that, like Paul was offering some. Some wisdom out of a life lived with Christ. And so to hear these women testify to how. How the Lord had sustained them was really a beautiful thing. And so I do think that that's something that sets what we're talking, sets it apart from mentoring in. In a professional space or mentoring outside of. Of a biblical framework. Right. We're not just offering good advice. We're trying to offer Christ and through explaining, like, how he has been sufficient, how he has been faithful, how he has changed and informed our life and so how the Gospel has impacted us. And so what has. What has this looked like in. In your own life? Either being discipled or mentored or mentoring and discipling? Because I know that we all have very different experiences with this, but our experiences are pretty vast in it. When I look around the table.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Well, well, on the other. On the other one. Can I. When I did say Jesus, even though I was joking, I did want to just specify this is what he did. He lived with 12. He chose 12 disciples.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

So when we use the term disciple, we're actually meaning life to life. And he traveled with them. And then there were three that he spent a particularly amount of time with. So there's some secret sauce there that he was. He knew life on life. And so I do think the mentors in my life, they've been in my life, you know, And I.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

You know, I mean, it just. My first mentor was a high school math teacher at my school who ran our fca. We. She. She wouldn't have even called herself a mentor, but she was just there to read students for the gospel and living her Christian life with us. And she would. I mean, she. I still remember so many things she said that just came out of her mouth constantly. You know, things. I mean. I mean, one of them was, don't be up on the stage leading if you're not living it. Like, Like, I mean, yeah, you know, she's just that type. And I was like, okay, that's. That's good, you know, but just life on life, it wasn't something. It wasn't a thing I signed up for. It was. I think she signed up for. We were just living and she was mentoring.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. For me, that person was my grandmother. My. My earliest memories of my grandmother. She was so very arthritic and, you know, would kind of toddle in her movements. But a lot of it was things I saw wasn't necessarily what she said. And in the mornings, she would slide from her bed into a kneeling position and pray. And I saw her do that every day. And so it was just persevering through hard. And it's the image, it still preaches to my heart every day of watching and seeing her faithfulness in prayer. But then after that, she would always pull herself up and I would wonder if she could because she was so arthritic. I would be waiting to see if this is going to happen. Like, okay, she did. And she would pull herself up, she'd go get cleaned up and she'd open this old Bible. She had a lift chair and she would plop me down next to her and hand me, her. My little orange book of Bible stories. And she had her old white Bible. And we would. Before I could read, I was reading. You know, I was doing this. And so I was doing what I saw Grandma doing. And, and, and so we would do that every morning until 10:00 when the Price is Right came on because we had our priorities together.

[Jen Wilkin]

Tell my stories after that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Jen Wilkin]

Even the Restless came on right after.

[Unknown Speaker]

There you go. There you go. Not that I knew that it was all my children. Jen, get it straight. But. Yeah, but, but it was, it was watching her faithfulness and it. She wasn't doing anything special for me. She was doing. That's how she lived.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

And I was thinking of you crawling up.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

In that chair beside her with your little book. It was the. Of her life that impacted the habit of your life.

[Unknown Speaker]

And. Yeah. And I found myself, even in homeschooling my children, having those same patterns and not even recognizing it. And it's like, oh, this is how Grandma did that. You know? And so she was shaping me even when I didn't know she was shaping me.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, I love that. So grandmother who lived next door, a math teacher at school. Jen.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, when I was at the first church that I served in in Houston after Jeff and I got married, there was a. Who was the children's minister that everyone wanted her time. She was just this vast well of wisdom. And I crack up. Cause I'm thinking she must have been in her 40s. Like she's younger. She's younger. Was younger than I am now at this point. And so all of these young married women wanted time with Ms. Pat. And I ended up coming on staff in a very, very part time role. And at that point she realized I needed her help. I'm sure she saw me coming from a mile away and she started investing in me and coaching me through like, hey, this is how you can, you know, go through a meeting and make it to the next meeting, you know, by the way you express yourself. Because can you even imagine what I was like, you know, at age 29, if this is what I'm like now? And she was, you know, I had, I taught her daughter in Sunday school, so I knew, you know, what her kids were like. I knew what her marriage, marriage was like. And I could not believe I was so aware of the preciousness of her time and that she was giving it to me that I just couldn't believe it. And she's still my mentor. We still, she's my friend. Like we. I always say the better term is a friendor because it's someone that you actually, it's not like a transactional thing. This is a friend who is of a different age. And so I still just can't believe she will set aside time to get together with me. And she lives several hours away now and we just plan a couple times a year to make sure we get a day together.

[Unknown Speaker]

I love this.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

The difference it can make when somebody is willing to invest in your life. And I actually love that all three of your examples, it was the older woman initiating the relationship saying, I'm willing to do this. And that, that's, that's kind of a word for us as older women. Like, where are we making ourselves? I, I tell older women all the time, show up in the spaces where the younger women are so that you at least have that relational access to have the conversations. But Jen, what were you going to say?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, just that she was one of the first people who said to me, I see something in you. And like the power of that. And I'm always thinking, who have I said that to? Who am I going to say that to? Because it had such power to draw me towards something with more courage. She loaned me so much courage. And I think that's a big function of at least female mentorship. Spaces for sure in the church is to go, nope, I see that in you. And you're not wrong and you're not prideful that this is something you enjoy doing and you're walking toward. You could be. And I'll make sure to keep you from Being that. But you're not wrong to think that the Lord is doing something in you in this area, Jen, that's so powerful.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because even like with my example of my grandmother, what would happen after I got a little bit older was that they would sit under the shade tree and let me tell them the Bible stories that they had taught me.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so I have confidence now when I speak because they made me believe I had something to say.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it was just, they're listening and they're, that's right, baby. That meant everything. And so it just gave me so much confidence that someone was pouring into me and hearing me and loving me, seeing me.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I think that's a big part of it, too. It's not just that they pour into us, but they let. It's while we're doing ministry. So it's not just you're a receiver, it's in the process of doing. I think the problem with the coffee shop sometimes is this is just all about me receiving.

[Unknown Speaker]

Whereas more consumeristic.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yes. I mean, some of the things I learned in that high school FCA group, they've affected every leadership role I've been in because we were planning everyone. She didn't run all the meetings. She didn't do it. We were the ones. She was there helping us step into our gifting, not doing everything. And I realized it was such this image of, yeah, I'm here, I'm going to help, you know, notice some things that might need changing. But it was really letting even these high school kids who we didn't know what we were doing.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

But you never learn what you don't know until you start doing something. So it's a. It's both pouring in and pushing out.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. Yeah. Never do for your mentee what your mentee can do for themselves.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's good. Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

So good that. Leave it to Jim.

[Unknown Speaker]

That is hippie, you know, Hendrix.

[Jen Wilkin]

I ripped him off.

[Melissa Krueger]

Statement. I just love it.

[Unknown Speaker]

It.

[Melissa Krueger]

We are so thankful for our sponsor, Crossway. They have been producing gospel centered resources for the church for a long time. And one of the ones that we get to highlight today is one of my favorites. It is practical, it is helpful, it is gospel centered, and it is written by the one and only Melissa Krueger. It is growing together, taking mentoring beyond small talk and prayer requests. And I know personally how well this has served women in the church. It occurred equips women to do this thing called discipleship. So it is a springboard for mentoring discussions between mature believers and newer Christians. And it really takes this biblical basis of mentoring from Titus 2, and through 11 lessons, it guides the. The older and the younger saint as they. As they grow together. And you use this beautiful illustration of two trees. Would you share that with us?

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah. When I was a little girl, I remember watching my dad outside tethering two trees to one another. This one little tree was all bent over, not growing straight, and he was tethering it to a much larger oak tree. And I asked him, why are you doing that? And he said, actually, this big oak tree is going to help the smaller tree grow just by standing beside it and offering its strength. And so what I love about that image, as I was thinking about mentoring, is the older tree doesn't actually make the younger tree grow. It just stands beside it. And that's what a mentor is doing. They're standing beside a younger believer and helping them grow in the faith.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's a phenomenal resource. So pick up a copy of Growing Together, taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests. You can get it wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org We've briefly talked about the fact that it's biblical. So for. I want to. I don't want to move on too quickly. I want to stop and say, why? Why do we even think that besides Cheese, besides the fact that he took 12 disciples, where do we see it? Where do we see the, you know, being compelled? And so then if we're saying this is a biblical thing in the life of a believer, a follower, a disciple, if you will, of Jesus, then then is it essential? And if it's not a part of your life as a follower of Jesus, then. Then what would we say about that? Are we saying, if it's biblical, is it essential? So why is it biblical? And what does that mean about if it's essential?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I think you can't get around the Great Commission when it comes to the is it essential? Piece. But I think too often we've thought of the Great Commission as go, therefore, and make converts. And this is more than that. Right. And so it's go, therefore, and make disciples, baptizing them, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded. And I do think it's the part of the Great Commission that we've trailed off our voice a little bit on when we talk about it. And we think about Great Commission faithfulness being, replicating, like church planting, you know, like we. But so. So often we slip into evangelism mode. And it's not that there is no element of discipleship that involves Evangelism, obviously you don't get disciples if there's no evangelism. But I have seen at least where in my area of the country that the emphasis has been on evangelism at the expense of discipleship in many cases. And so to the point that. And then you could even argue within the gospel centered movement, where we've sometimes reduced gospel centeredness to justification and we've forgotten about sanctification, that we have not viewed the primary focus of the Great Commission to be. Oh, no, it's actually. It's forming someone across a lifetime in a life on life relationship. And that doesn't mean that there aren't mentors who pass in and out of our lives at different seasons, because I think that's one of the big misconceptions about a mentoring relationship is that it has to last across a lifetime. I'm sure you have thoughts on.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's terrifying.

[Jen Wilkin]

Where you just let. Like, they bury you at the coffee shop. Yeah, they bury you at the. Under coffee grounds.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Plant a tree over you.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I. Yeah, but I love what you're saying, because the reality is we do talk about discipleship as being for a believer, but the reality is we disciple unbelievers towards salvation and we disciple believers towards sanctification.

[Jen Wilkin]

And this is a big thing people miss. They think that discipleship is not evangelistic.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right. Or evangelism's not discipleship.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's right. But I love Dallas. Willard has said, and I'm gonna hack it up, but he says, what if instead of making converts and letting disciples happen, we made disciples let converts happen. That's exactly. And I think that's. That's what mentorship kind of gets to. Because have you guys had times where you started mentoring someone who wasn't a believer yet? Yes.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Well. And all of us really need an apologetic to stay in the race. Isn't that what Hebrews is basically all about? Do you know what I'm saying? So it's. It's kind of.

[Melissa Krueger]

Explain what you mean on that.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah, I mean, like, it's. We're all tempted to turn away.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I mean, we're all tempted to stop running. We're all tempted to say maybe this isn't worth it. And so discipleship is, in some ways, cheering you on to stay in the race.

[Jen Wilkin]

I will never forget. I've repeated this multiple times when we're together. How you and your little Presbyterian faithfulness. I was talking about. We were talking about children. We were actually talking about parenting. And I was saying, you Know, like, in my circles, there's a way that people parent before they think a child is saved, and then they parent differently after they think a child is saved. And your little Presbyterian heart, she just looks at me and she says, but the message of repent and believe is good for all of us. And I think that gets to this as well. It's like we think there are two different modes we have to be in. And so often that's not true. It's not that there's never a time to speak specifically to the unbeliever or specifically to the believer, but I think we underestimate the power of talking to someone about faith in a way that is relevant to both the unbeliever and the believer.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, how many, countless, countless times in Scripture do we see Jesus creating belonging before there's belief? You know, the friend of sinners, you know, the, you know, the sinful woman.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

You know, it's just his house.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, you're. I'm coming to your house today. You know, and so us being willing to also create that kind of belonging for people before there's ever belief.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love that. Well, the message is the same.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

The conversation we're in is about the Gospel and that as your Presbyterian.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, we could get kidding. I agree. I agree. I agree exactly.

[Melissa Krueger]

Especially with discipling children. Right.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

But I do think that you see that life on life, all through Scripture.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

When I think about the relationship between Joshua and Moses, I hadn't really hit it until I started studying the book of Joshua. And I went back and looked at their relationship. Moses, I mean, Joshua and Moses, they're together all the time. I mean, all those years Moses was leading, Joshua is there. He was actually in the tent of meeting. If you go back and read the thing, you're like, I know he was. I'm like, what was going on in there? You know, like, Joshua saw it, whatever was happening. And then even it says he carried his stuff up, up the mountain. And, you know, I don't like. I mean, so it's just he was around. And. And actually, when you look at the leaders in the Old Testament, Joshua is the one who's pretty much the biggest shining star. Like, we don't see the same. Like, most of them are not always exemplary for us to follow. Yeah. I mean, in John. Yeah. But I just look at this relationship. He actually obeyed God when they went in the promised land, he did what God asked for him to do. Again, no one does it perfectly, but I'm just like, but he had all these years of walking with Moses and years and years of investment, and I think you see the fruit of that, and we all want that. I mean, but it's really hard to find it.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. So talk to me then about the fact that Joshua was with Moses in real life, and you kind of alluded to this earlier, and then you also talked about the fact that discipleship happens in moments. Right. It can happen in so many different ways. But what is the difference between being discipled by someone or a variety of people through scrolling versus life on life?

[Jen Wilkin]

Because I always.

[Melissa Krueger]

I always tell people I really can't. All discipleship has to happen in a way that you can see what I do when I'm cut off in traffic, or you see what I do when, you know, I snap.

[Jen Wilkin]

Discipleship.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. You got to see it because, you know, repent and believe it's constant. Yeah, exactly. But you have to see that it's being lived out in real life. Not because any of us would claim to have arrived at being an exemplar, but because, you see faithfulness and sanctification. Sanctification is real and faithfulness is actually cultivated in us in increasing amounts. Praise God. But what would you all say about the discipleship that is happening? Void, devoid of life on life, devoid of being in someone's kitchen or walking up a mountain and being in the tent of meeting with them so much.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

You just get so many wrong.

[Unknown Speaker]

Impressions.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah. I mean, it's just. It's just not a whole picture. It's flat. Yeah. I mean, when I think about what I see scrolling, it looks like everybody's life is perfect. Everybody's marriage is perfect. Everybody's home is perfect.

[Melissa Krueger]

And can you be a Christian if you don't make sourdough?

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah, I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, that's.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I know. It's questionable. I mean, it's questionable. And so all of those things. Whereas when you go in to someone's home and when you just sit at their table and one. Yeah. You see, oh, wow. There was a little bit of friction with the way they said that to one another, but you also see how they worked it out and it went on and you're like, oh, okay. And maybe you see it, oh, wow, there are a lot of dishes in the sink.

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

But. But then you're like, oh, it's because they were hosting all these people. And that's what that looks like. You know, I mean, you just get a different image. When I like. I like to say, I mean, we. We need to see the gospel Lived out with flesh on it. Like, we need to see what does it look like to walk through it. We have these words, what do we see when the Spirit takes hold of someone and we see it live before us in its imperfection.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

You know, to see apologies happen, to see, you know, squ happen.

[Melissa Krueger]

All of that incarnational ministry. Yeah, it matters.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

It matters.

[Melissa Krueger]

It matters.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

It matters.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and I think it was intuitive in, you know, generations, 2,000 years ago, it was intuitive in collectivist cultures. And we, we had the combined problem of individualism impacting our sense of, like, how, how we should grow and be developed. Like, most Christians in my world think that the most precious time they can have is alone with their Bible and God. And I don't mean to diminish the significance of that time. No, I do. I mean to balance it and say that matters. But if that never moves toward a conversation with someone else, watch out, be very careful, because you need those other comparison points. And so you've got that aspect. You've got the individualism aspect, which is also saying, well, okay, well, maybe I don't think that, but I can also just, just consume at a distance someone else's example. But I will say in my own experience, and we talked about this a little, like, I have been mentored at a distance, and as long as there have been books, people have been mentored at a distance. And it's just the only time it's a problem is if you think that's a substitute for in person. Right. It's like the equivalent of confusing a FaceTime conversation with a loved one with an actual conversation with a loved one. Like, FaceTime conversation is like, Mary Kate has been in Korea. FaceTime was a lifeline for us. But she's not in Korea anymore. And it would be super weird if I just continued to FaceTime her when I can have an in person conversation. And I think that we have so many at a distance voices now that if we get confused on what one thing does versus what another thing does. And some of it is assessing what are my primary ways that I'm being discipled. It's not vilifying one way entirely. It's asking, am I, am I relying on one particular input beyond what it's able to do?

[Unknown Speaker]

That obstacle of, you know, my house isn't perfect, or, you know, where do I find the time? And it's trying to balance all those things, or what does a younger woman want from me? Or I've got sin in my life. You know, I have to tell Her.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's all of those things. If I've got to bring somebody close, they've got to see warts and all. And so it's that willingness and it's that generosity, it's that hospitality of, yeah, I'm going to create space for you. I'm going to help you hold some hard things, I'm going to walk alongside you, I'm going to encourage you, I'm going to cheer you on. And it's just that willingness to be seen, but also to see them. And that's powerful. And you miss that in an unbalanced scrolling online.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, and I liked that. The whole idea that we're not going to vilify one thing because we're discipled by people who wrote a book 400 years ago, were discipled by, you know, like all these different ways. And so not everything that forms us into the image of Christ is in the flesh, life on life. That's right. But. But it is good to at least name that and name the value of what life on life, incarnational ministry looks like.

[Jen Wilkin]

And you make a good point. I think we've danced around it, but it's good to say it out loud. And that is that we are not discipleship optional.

[Melissa Krueger]

There you go.

[Jen Wilkin]

Like when Christ called his disciples, he didn't call them from not being disciples to being disciples. He called them from being discipled by whatever it was they had been discipled by into being discipled in his way. And that, I think, is a disconnect that we have. We're absolutely being formed. It's a question of how and by whom.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, that is so true. I guess in the same way that we're where our hearts are all. How did he say it? That we're all Tim Keller idle factories, all idol factories. I guess we're all discipleship factories too. We're all being discipled and we're all discipling in a variety of ways. And so how do we apply wisdom to that and name certain things? Well, we all hear from older women and younger women and can I just. First, can I just speak to every woman listening for just a minute and tell you that you are the older woman and you are the younger woman. So this idea that you're only living in one category at a time is false. There is always a younger woman around and there is always an older woman to be learning from. And so I think. I think holding that intention is. Is a healthy thing for all of us to do. But as we are maybe leaning into a particular Relationship, hoping to either disciple or be discipled, and in more formal ways, because we've talked the informal ways that we're discipled. We're informally discipled by what we watch and what we read and the conversations we have. But these formal discipleship relationships, meaning we intentionally are asking how the gospel applies to this part of our lives, can be our work, can be our parenting, can be our whatever. But these intentional discipleship relationships, we hear that those who are viewing themselves as the younger woman wants this. Those who view themselves as the older women are terrified of this. Or sometimes those who view themselves as the older women are advice factories.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

So the difference between, okay, let's talk about that before we talk about what we would say to each category of person. What would we say to the person who wants to disciple somebody into their own image?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, you, you just took the, you took the words out of my mouth because that's what I was going to say. Discipleship is making you, you know, is having you form in the image of God and not in the image of the person. And so advice tends to, that encouragement doesn't, you know, as much. And so, and there will be times, of course, when advice is needful and, and helpful, but I think often you are cheering someone towards a goal line. You're, you're cheering them towards a standard, you're encouraging them. And so when, when the relationship becomes fraught with just advice, particularly advice, that's maybe, you know, secular wisdom or, you know, not rooted in the word of God. Not, it's, it's a lot less helpful in helping someone to be formed in the image of Christ. And so I would say to guard against that where you can and to encourage more than you advise.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and I would say lead with a question that's so good and then ask another question. Like, I have sort of a little internal rule that I'm going to ask at least three questions before I try to formulate any kind of response. And there are some times where I will be meeting with someone where I never have to make a statement because the question is enough for them to think through their own situation and arrive at their own conclusions. And when you look back at your most illuminating moments where you had a lot of self awareness or you had a pivotal moment, it's very rarely during a lecture. It's almost always during a dialogue. And so, and this is, you know, parenting advice too, but a mentoring relationship has a very parenting element to it. And so, you know, one of the key things that we like to say to parents is ask, don't tell, ask, don't tell, ask, don't tell. As your kids get older in a mentoring relationship, you're dealing probably at least with a young adult. And so that means that you should be saying, hey, tell me more about that. I mean, tell me more is the easiest follow up question. Or you said this, can you expand on that? And what I had found is in the early days of mentorship, I thought I was supposed to solve someone's problem and I found myself habitually making myself the hero of my own story because I thought I had to present as, you know, I'm the solution. And so asking the questions has made me better. Asking myself follow up questions, you know, when I'm in a moment of like, oh, I don't know what to do. But it's also, it's a humble position to come from in that conversation. You don't have to think of yourself as always holding the high ground. Sometimes what you're doing is just drawing out what they already know and have not yet articulated.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it positions you as a learner. Learner, right, that's right.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I mean, because as a mentor, you ought to be the chief learner.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, and so asking good questions does that. I love that.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yeah. Because if you're overly prescriptive, it's like you're the answer giver and we haven't walked through these experiences. It's.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I mean, it's different if it's like, you know, something that's clear in scripture. Right? Yeah. I mean, obviously, but because the scriptures are clear. Yeah, yeah. About like love God. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

But if it's a wisdom, so much of it is wisdom issues.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

Wisdom is sit situational. And so often to avoid being heard as being prescriptive because people want to project that onto you as well. They want you to tell them exactly what to do. I will say, I cannot tell you what to do. I can tell you what I did. And then you need to take that and apply it to your unique situation. And they don't love that. But then they end up realizing, oh, that's a better way to think about things, because I can't possibly in an hour or even in three months of meeting with, you know, every nuance to your situation. But you can look for the principle in what I did and look for a way to apply it to your situation.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think that's a great line to tell anybody listening to use, I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I Did So that's offering your life and how the Lord taught you or met you in that as one piece of data as they are pursuing knowing Christ in whatever it is that they're, that they're doing. So I love that. What would you say then to, to a younger woman, like kind of what are next steps? If somebody's listening and they're thinking, man, I would love to have a life on life type of place to have these conversations and maybe I've never done that, but I want to move towards that. What, what would you say? Where, where would you kind of push them in next, next steps or ways to, ways to pursue a relationship like this?

[Unknown Speaker]

I've seen some things not to do.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, that's how all of my answers are formulated.

[Unknown Speaker]

But yes, that might be helpful. I think generally younger women don't know how intimidated older women are to be approached as a mentor is what I've seen again and again. And so going with, I want you to be my mentor all bright eyed and bushy tailed and the older person's like what, what in the world do I have to offer you? And you know, and what does that mean? And is it all of life? You know?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so I think having a very pointed, I need help with this. Would you be willing to meet with me maybe over coffee? It could be in the coffee shop.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

That's a good intro.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think that's a great maybe over coffee. But you know, often just maybe even in your own home, you know, but maybe if, if you'd be willing to meet with me to discuss, you know, marriage or raising. Discuss whatever it is my, my work, if you'd be able to, willing to do that once a week for maybe six weeks. But it's, it's kind of giving it some boundaries and a specific ask is, makes it a lot less overwhelming I.

[Jen Wilkin]

Think when I just drill down on.

[Unknown Speaker]

That a little bit. Go ahead, go for it.

[Jen Wilkin]

Jen. I totally agree. I think that my fear is not, I don't know if I can be vulnerable with this person. It's. I don't know how much this person wants from me. And so I have boundaries for my boundaries. Anyone in my life will tell you that. And so for me, everybody gets a coffee. You know, like if you say, hey, I would love to meet with you. So I would say to the younger woman, don't lead with, can we have multiple meetings? Okay, lead with, can we get together? I'd love to ask you a few.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Questions and say what can I just say? Because when someone says can we get coffee? I'm like, what did I do wrong?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, what did I do wrong? So then. And so then. But what I will say when someone reaches out is I say, that's great. Could you. Actually, my assistant will say it now. It's like, Jen would love for you to bring a list of what you would like to talk about, because I.

[Melissa Krueger]

Don'T know if you've ever coffee requests you're going to get.

[Jen Wilkin]

No, that's why I have an assistant. No, but I mean, I'm talking about in my local church. I do. I prioritize those women. Right? Yeah. If you are listening to this and you live at distance, the answer is no. And it's not because I don't love you and care about you. It's because I have people I know face to face who I need to give this time to. But, you know, everybody gets one coffee. Cause that's where I'm gauging. Are you crazy? Are you not crazy? And if you've only had one coffee with me, it doesn't mean I thought you were crazy. It just means that maybe. What I find often is that they don't need to meet on a regular basis. They need to know they can contact me if they do need to meet. And so I will say, hey, I'm available to you. You have my contact information. If you have another list and you know, three months from now or whatever you would like to get together again, reach out to my assistant and we will schedule it. And then some never reach out again because it's like they just know they can. And it diffuses some of the. And then there are people who I'm in an ongoing regular meeting with. And it's because we identified enough good reasons for us to keep in that and friendship to be able to stay in that kind of. But typically I commit to a particular length of time, you know, like, hey, let's do this for a year, and then we can evaluate. Or maybe it's six months, depends, you know, then we can evaluate at that time. So you always have off ramps until such time as it has become sustainable enough that you're like, oh, we're actually friends.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Off ramps are important.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

So important. Because it makes it a less. It makes it easier to say yes. Right. If it's an off ramp and coming.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

With specific questions, it is so helpful.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's good.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Because I will have coffees and we will spend two hours. Yes. And then I'm like, why were we here? And did I give her anything? She Wanted. And I leave not knowing why. Why we were here. So if you can be specific, like, hey, I heard you mention about this thing you do with prayer, and I'd love to pick your brain. I'd love to help noodle on that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Noodle a little bit. Oh, that's what the brain does. Back to the noodles, you know, but.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Like, but to be really specific about why that woman, because I think it can be tempting to reach out to the woman who's maybe always the leader and just remember, she's got a lot of women probably reaching out to her. So maybe I would also say, look at women, Women in maybe your small group like that you are already engaged with life. Yeah. Maybe it's choosing a small group that actually has older women in it, you know, that you could. So being really conscious about what decisions you're making, and then as you get to know them. And I would also encourage. It's so tempting to go to Google for everything. And I think sometimes we've lost certain things. Like when you used to ask an older woman, hey, can you give me that cake recipe that you brought to small group? Because I'd like to make it. And you actually. Maybe then that actually turned into a bigger conversation later. So just being willing to ask mundane things and build friendships that can turn into spiritual things.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's really good.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, we'd be remiss if we didn't qualify that. It doesn't have to be one woman meeting with one woman. Exactly. We actually, at my church, implemented something that was about six women meeting with one woman. And in a church of our size, that particularly made sense because you had this critical mass of younger women, and then you only had a handful of older women. But we put a lot of boundaries. Like we said, this is what it is, this is what it is not. And that freed up those older women to go, oh, I'm not signing my life away, but I can really invest for this period of time. And the expectations are clear. So much of what I think can go wrong in mentoring relationships is when expectations have not been clarified at the beginning.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's important.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. So, so important.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I would say to the younger woman that don't look around for the coolest older woman in your church. Look around for the one who is a faithful prayer, loves the Lord, knows his word shows up that would, you know, it's easy to want the one that sort of everybody else wants instead of maybe the one that her Bible is falling apart. To think about your grandmother Vanessa, and to the Older women, again, just know that if you're listening, this is you, too. You are the older woman in some category. But to show up. And I said it at the beginning, but to be in the spaces where the younger women are so that there is relationship being developed. It's just important. I know a lot of older women are like, well, nobody's asking me. And it's like, well, where, like you just said, are you in the small groups? Are you at the events at the church? Are you showing up in these spaces because.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

And are you overly prescriptive? I mean, we've got a little. You're always telling everybody what they should do.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, little self awareness is good. Yeah, little self awareness is good. Well, I just recently had a woman that I would consider, for me, a younger woman talking to me about this and saying, you know, part of the problem with the older women is that they are very advicey. They like to give advice. They like to be prescriptive. And then I heard her turn around to appear and be very prescriptive and advicey on how to give birth. And I was like, oh, little self awareness all the way through. It's not just the older women that are advicey.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

We.

[Melissa Krueger]

It is in us. We love to give advice. We love to be prescriptive. And so I think that, like, yeah, just all of that. That's not the place. It's not the place. And so I still, I love that. That kind of category of being able to say, this is what I did. But it's not telling you what to do. So there is a place, like you said, there's a place for. For sharing your life experience. As long as we're not saying, and this needs to be the same for.

[Jen Wilkin]

You, but there are times where you will have to say, this is what you should do.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, I was saying, absolutely.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

And don't have the affair.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. But you want those to land the way that they should. And if you've only told. And think about, like, if you had constantly just told a child, this is what you should do. They don't develop an internal mechanism for wisdom. It's all external. But that doesn't mean that there aren't still moments where you go, hey, you shouldn't do that 100%, you know what I'm saying? Or, this is what you should do. And I know, like, you know, even with evaluating what to do next with my job, you know, I sat down with Pat and she said, this is what you need to do, because I could not see it. And she Said this is what you should do. And here's even the timeline I think you should do it in. It was really helpful to me because I knew she had had to run the same math in her own life. So it's not again though you want to, you want to conserve those moments for when you need. Need them the most.

[Melissa Krueger]

That is good. Well, I have loved this conversation. It's a. It's a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. I have been discipled and have grown so much as a result of people being willing to pour into me. And I'm just really grateful for that. And I love the, I love the relationships I currently have with younger women that are discipleship relationships. It's a huge part of.

[Jen Wilkin]

They're mutually edifying.

[Melissa Krueger]

They are mutually edify. We are growing together, to coin a phrase. I'm kidding. That is the name of Melissa's book. We will put that in the show notes for sure. Thank you. Well, speaking of books, speaking of books, we would love to know Jen and Vanessa, what is a book in your life that you have read and reread maybe multiple times?

[Unknown Speaker]

Probably the other than scripture. The most probably well worn book is the knowledge of the holy. Aw tozer.

[Melissa Krueger]

No.

[Jen Wilkin]

What? Vanessa, are we going to hug? Are we sure we'll hug after.

[Melissa Krueger]

We will.

[Unknown Speaker]

But it was the one that expanded how I saw the Lord the most and in different seasons in different ways. And so at first it was just like the enormity, the majesty of who God is. I had never experienced it like that. And then after that it was just my love for sign science. This theologian was reconciling that I didn't have to choose. And he says something and I will completely mess this up. But he talks about how science is just scientists observing their postulates and theorems are. They're observing how God methodically moves through his universe with power. And I was like, that's good. Yes, yes. And so I. It's the book I read again and again and again.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

I need to read it.

[Jen Wilkin]

Same girl.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

It's the one I've given away more than any other book too. And I'm like, you, it was a light bulb for me. It was just, I thought, I have not known this God. I have professed this love for I've not known him the way that one learns to know someone you truly are invested in and love. Yeah. That book is so, so good. And rather ironically, I don't think he's a human being. I would have wanted to be mentored by as it turns out. But it's a, I mean, but also it's like a good example of how sometimes you take the good, you take that one dimensional. That's right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mentorship.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And you take it for what it is good for and you turn loose what it wasn't good for and you trust the Lord. And you know, I think everybody here would say we have people who have shaped us who we might not have model wanted to take on everything they were modeling. But I also have thought how like if I had only had an in person one on one relationship and I had never met the voice of A.W. tozier, I would have had not had had as rich of a life, you know. And that's why I say we're looking for that middle place.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think as my professor would say, eat the meat, spit out the bones. There you go.

[Jen Wilkin]

There you go.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, this was a great conversation. If you thank you for joining us for this episode. If this was helpful, consider liking it and sharing it and leave us a comment and tell us us, tell us what discipleship looks like in your life and join us next time on the Deep Dish.

[Vanessa K. Hawkins]

Hey friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.