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The Deep Dish
Sacrificial Yeses and Necessary Nos: Discern the Difference
00:42:36
Courtney Doctor and Melissa Kruger discuss making decisions about your time. What should be a 'yes'? What should be 'no'?
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- [00:00]
Vanitha Reisner
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- [01:39]
Melissa Krueger
Com the first yes has to be the Lord and this first decision to spend time in his presence. Like my mind. Actually, the first thing I need is a transformed mind. Then I will be able to discern what is good and pleasing. Foreign.
- [02:03]
Courtney Docter
Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Docter. I'm here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger.
- [02:13]
Melissa Krueger
Hey Courtney, it's good to be with you today. And today we are going to be talking about a topic that I think I hope it relates to some other women or else I might assume it's an intervention in my own life because this is something I definitely struggle with. And this is this topic of when do we say no to things that seem like really good things? How do we give a no when it's hard to do so? And then how do we sometimes give a really Sacrificial yes. Like, the answer, you know, to. To our lives isn't just learning to say no, no, no, no, no, but sometimes we need to give a sacrificial yes to something that. That's going to take up a lot of time and is really hard. And so the question for us today is how do we discern the difference between hey, I need to say no to this, or, hey, I need to give a sacrificial yes to this? So do you ever struggle with this, or is this just. Courtney wants to take Melissa on a podcast and hold her accountable?
- [03:13]
Courtney Docter
Can it be. Can it be both? Can it be an intervention and no. I'm totally kidding. Of course I struggle with it. It is. It's hard because there are times that the no's are easier, and there's times, like you said, that the no's are sacrificial and there's time. The yeses. There's times the yeses are sacrificial and the times that the yeses are easier. So. So there's no formula. This is wisdom. This is discernment. It's nuanced, it's situational. It's not formulaic. And I remember having a friend explain to me, they said, do you. Do you picture discerning God's will as like walking through a maze where you're going to. You. You have to figure it out. Or am I to say, you know, turn right or turn left here? Or is it more the. And. And this person was leading me to understand discerning God's will as this big field that you walk through. There's, of course, there's edges, there's parameters to God's will. But so much of discernment is. Is just. Is walking in the freedom of God's word. And so some of the yeses and no's. And that's why it's so hard to. To know or even. Even to have this conversation, because there. It's not formulaic in any way. And so just as we're talking about, like, do I say yes or no even to things like financial giving opportunities? Do I say yes or no to ministry opportunities? How would those ever not be God's will? But like you said before, saying something is saying no to something else. And so when our resources of time and money and energy are all limited, then it is a discernment issue, and they all require wisdom. And so it's hard, right? It's. It's walking in step with the Spirit and. And knowing. Knowing both the beauty of the freedom, but also the times in God's word where it's like, no, this is not negotiable. Like, this is my will for you, your sanctification first. Thessalonians 4, 3. Right. So. So if it's. If it's a sanctification issue, his will is do it like, this is for you. So, yeah, it's hard. And I think different stages in life, we, you know, we just are confronted with it. I was even thinking about when the kids were little and, you know, should I be the room mom? Should I not be the room mom? You know, should I be a small group leader? Should I not be a small group leader? Right. I mean, they're just all of those things.
- [05:39]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. So what you're saying is people aren't going to leave this podcast episode with a formula to make their life really easy to figure all this out. It. Actually, I think that is what's so difficult, because you might be supposed to say yes to something that I'm supposed to say no to. And I. And I think it's not just a matter of the choices I make. It's. I can be tempted to judge you for the choices you're making. Like, well, look, it was a big sacrificial yes for me to do this, so why is Courtney not doing this? And we sit in judgment of one another as women, whether it's the room mom thing, whether it's what, I packed a peanut butter jelly in my kids sandwich. And you're like, your children are going to die in early death because of what you just put. You know, whatever. I mean, like, we have these choices that we're all making each day, and it can be really tempting, especially when we have made a hard yes that was hard to say yes to. To look around and be like, why is no one helping me? Why. Why am I the one doing this? And that's where I think. But yet, when we know when we've sat before the Lord and sat in prayer and said, no, I really am supposed to do this, we go forward with a little more confidence and a little less judgment. Because it was what I was called to, not what I'm calling everyone else to. And I think. I think that's a hard balance. So that leads me to my first question for you. What are some bad reasons for saying yes to things?
- [07:04]
Courtney Docter
Ooh. I mean, we can, right? And it depends on your personality. Some people, it's a lot harder to say yes to things. Some people, it's a lot harder to say no. I'M the. It's much harder for me to say no because I'm a people pleaser, but we can say yes because we are people pleasers or maybe because we're really flattered by that request. Or, you know, I talk to a lot of younger women who feel the fear of missing an opportunity. Like, if I don't say yes now, this will never come back to me. And it's like, no, that's just not true. We just re emphasize over and over that it's discernment. Part of that is recognizing our own heart, what we're trying to get out of a decision or, or what's motivating us to, to say the yes or the no. You know, I love Romans 12 and which starts off, therefore, I urge you brothers, in view of God's mer, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And then he says this, so after these things have happened, after you've offered your body as a, as this living sacrifice and you've, you know, you're not being conformed to the world, but you're being transformed. He says, paul, then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is. That's an astounding statement. His good, pleasing and perfect will. Paul says, for by the grace given to me, I say to every one of you, do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. So Melissa, as you're thinking about that and why Paul finished discerning God's good, pleasing and perfect will with this thought of, hey, don't think too highly of yourself. What, what do those two things have to do with each other? What does it mean to think of ourselves with sober judgment when we have a decision to make?
- [09:01]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I hadn't thought about this passage in that way as we think about discernment in these yeses and these nos. But one thing I really see here is the first yes has to be the Lord. Here I am. Lord, send me kind of this open handed to the Lord and this first decision to spend time in his presence, like my mind. Actually, the first thing I need is a transformed mind. Then I will be able to discern what is good and pleasing. And so the first yes, I think we both would want to say always has to be towards Time with the Lord to be shaped and transformed. We're always going to be making decisions kind of out of the flesh, out of ourself, without spending time. And. And I think a lot of us think of our decisions as too small to need prayer. Like, do I really need to pray about whether to, you know, sign up to make Valentine's Day cards? I don't know, whatever it might be, but these things are our time. It's limited, you know, or to make cookies for the, you know, Bible study event that's happening or whatever. I think sometimes we think, oh, this is too small to. To do this. But I. So this. I think as we walk with the Lord day to day, we're going to get better at understanding what. What is God calling me to do? And what is he. What is he not calling me to do? I think a sober judgment of ourselves is something that develops. I don't think that we necessarily have this at 25. I think it's still something we're learning. I think when I now at, you know, in my 50s, I know much better what to say no to and what to say yes to because of the ways, you know, I'm uniquely gifted and what God, what I know I'm supposed to do. I think in your 20s, we're still figuring that out. And so it's actually a time to try things out and say yes to things, and you're still sorting it out. And the only way you can actually start to know what you're good at is to maybe not be good at some things. So you might be like, huh, maybe I'll never do cinnamon rolls again, not good at it, you know, or whatever. But, hey, I'm really good at teaching children's church. And I never thought, yeah, maybe you don't even have kids of your own. But that's just where you come alive. And you love doing that. Or, you know, I think all of these things take time. You might be really good one on one with someone in a counseling situation, but you hate being up front in front of 50 people. That makes you terrified to do so. You're gonna maybe be the one to take the meal and go and sit with someone for an hour in the hospital, know, and you're going to be really good at that. That takes time to develop and to figure out. But I think the first time that has to be spent is before the Lord. As we're spending time with him, praying about these things, we're going to start to discern what are we gifted at and let Me say, this doesn't mean that we only do what we're gifted at. All of us are going to. Yeah. I don't know that anyone has a spiritual gift of setting up chairs, but sometimes chairs need to be set up. So that's can be that sacrificial yes where we say, hey, I'm pitching in. I'm going to help. Um, but some people really do have the gift of hospitality, so they open up their homes and they say yes, and it's a joyful thing to do. So this. A sacrificial yes doesn't always mean you're doing something that you're not gifted at. You can really be serving a sacrificial yes to do something you're very gifted at, but you're just tired. We never feel that around here. Yeah. I mean, so sometimes. And again, all of this takes walking with the Lord and being in prayer. And I would say having a really good network of friends who can help you understand what you're good at and asking them, having just, like, two good friends that you can look at and say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this or this. Will you pray for me? Especially things that are going to take a large amount of time, you know, so if you're going to commit to, like, being something for a year, whether it's at the church or volunteering in the community in some way, maybe it's helping someone with finances or whatever you might be volunteering to do. If it's going to take a weekly commitment or maybe a couple times a month, asking a friend, hey, do you think this is a good way for me to spend my time? Do you see me being good at this? I think those are good ways that we can start to discern and look at ourselves. Sober judgment, knowing we are limited and finite. We. We are not God. We do not have an infinite amount of time or an infinite amount of, you know, energy to be able to serve in the church. And so just remembering kind of our place in the body, we're a part of the body. We are not the body. And I think that kind of helps us think of ourselves with sober, sober judgment. So, Courtney, you said earlier that every yes is a no to something else. With that in mind, what kind of questions should we ask ourselves when an opportunity presents itself? Because, you know, people are gonna be like, oh, you'd be so great at this. And it is.
- [14:04]
Courtney Docter
It's.
- [14:05]
Melissa Krueger
It's encouraging to say, to hear that, like, hey, you would be great at, you know, mentoring this teen. Would you Be willing to do that. It's going to be a weekly commitment. How. How do you walk through that process and make that decision?
- [14:21]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, again, I mean, just that discernment of walking with the Lord and asking him and, and that no decision is too small to, to present before Him. And I think, you know, it's not only that every yes is, is ultimately going to be a no to something else because we're limited beings because our time and we may not even know what the no is going to be. But I've. I've experienced that over and over again where I will feel just a piece about saying no. And then later I find out, oh, that weekend or that space of time that those Tuesday nights actually needed to be open for something else. But also every no is a yes for someone else. And so there are times and places, and I've shared this story before, but like you said, setting up chairs or bringing cookies to something. There have been times that I have said no to something like that, that of course I could show up and do that, but just felt like no because someone else. And it. My one amazing story about that is it was somebody new to the church who was looking for a way to be integrated into the life of the church. And lo and behold, by bringing the brownies, you know, and showing up early, she started making connections. And could I have brought brownies? Absolutely. But for whatever reason it was, I, I don't think I'm supposed to be bringing the brownies to this. And that allowed someone else to say yes to that. And like your example of mentoring a teen, I think, you know, if I, because I would want to say yes to that, I would want to say yes to that. But if I were discerning and I think this is. You alluded to this, but in that discernment process, I talk a lot about, in my own mind. I talk to myself a lot about these concentric circles in my life. And it's going back to the Romans 12, but there are non negotiables in our life. We are called to know the Lord and to, to know His Word. And that takes time in His Word, that takes time in prayer. And so that is a non negotiable. I have things in my life. I have been given a husband. That relationship is non negotiable. And it takes time and it takes commitment and it takes energy. I, I have been given children and grandchildren. Those are non negotiables. And so I used to ask myself a lot, are all of these relationships sort of my relationship with the Lord, my relationship with my family. Are they characterized by being healthy? Not, you know, not are they perfectly healthy? But are they characterized by being healthy? And am I characterized by investing the time needed in my non negotiable? So whatever your, you know, non negotiables are, and then, then that becomes, okay, what can I say yes to in addition to those? But if I am, if my non negotiables are not getting the time and energy and resources that they need, then, then that needs to be an automatic no. And then there's other times that you're just focusing all in the world of the, of the negotiables. And so it's questioning, well, what would need to go or change in order to say yes. I remember being asked to serve on a board and going to my husband and saying, you know, what do you think I really to this? And I don't know, you know, should I help me to start, pray for me and talk through this with me. And he said, I something's going to have to go for you to say yes to that. Now I think you might be, you know, called to say yes to this. But what's going to go? What's going to change? And so even like you said, in the context of conversations with the body of Christ, and so it's, you know, again, we're just going to keep saying it. It's not formulaic. If somebody has a formula, put it in the show notes because I want to hear it and I'm going to start applying it. But I talk about the flip side of this. Melissa, so what was a time that you really did not want to say yes to something, but you knew that it was going to be obedience in your life? And so I want to hear an example of a sacrificial yes.
- [18:22]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, I think one, one thing that we said yes to when we had young kids at home was having a Bible study in our home. It was not really the season I wanted to be doing that. It felt like, Whoa, I'm inviting 30 people into what is already chaos. And, you know, I mean, the house wasn't clean, you know, Cheetos on the floor. Who, who wants to come into our mess? And just felt like one more thing to be doing in the evening, you know, and our kids were going to be there, so I was going to be having to go upstairs, get them down while all these people were downstairs. I just didn't feel like maybe is this the right thing to do? And when I look back on it, I'm so Glad we said yes to it because it wasn't just us serving others by letting them be in our home. It was my. I remember my kids walking around the Bible study putting like beads, you know, or necklace dressing up our, you know, friends who were there who maybe didn't have kids of their own. And they got to have, you know, a little three year old sit up in their lap and greet them with a hug. And my kids got to see the larger body of Christ. So then when they went to church on Sunday, they knew people, not just people who were their age, they knew older people in the church. And so it turned out to be this yes that I thought was going to be the sacrifice, but it was really a blessing to me and just the relationships that formed in that group as you study God's Word together. So it, it. Was it convenient? No, it was not convenient, but it was, it. Was it good? It was a good yes. And so I'm so glad I said it. And it met in our home for years. And we have friendships that just built during that time. Um, we have couples that met in that small group who are now married. You know, they came in as singles. They met because they had a place to meet. And you know, you look at what happens when the body gets together and so just those hospitals. Biddable yeses. Okay, so this leads me to another question for us both because yes, we want to give sacrificial yeses. We, we need to say no to certain things. There's. I, I think sometimes I am shooting for this imaginary, imaginary land called balance. This place where the yeses and the no's work in perfect agreement and my soul is at peace or something. You know, I think, I think we're longing this for this and that we have enough. You know, our culture calls it me time. How do we think about balance and me time in light of scripture? Like, yeah, these are buzzwords in our culture, you know, and, and I think they've, yeah, they've really come into the church in a lot of ways of. Yeah, you know, you just, you're doing too much. You need to take a break. And there can be a place for that, but it can also just kind of feed our. Maybe we don't want to do things. I'm so thankful for the sponsor of our podcast, Crossway. They continue to produce amazing resources for the church. And today we get to talk about one that I have loved. It's the ESV Spiral bound Journaling Bible. It's a five volume set. I love it because it's actually I love spiral bound because there's this ability to flip the page. I don't know why I like that so much, but I really like it. Can you tell us a little bit more about it, Courtney?
- [22:04]
Courtney Docter
Well, and it's not just flipping the pages, but laying them flat so that you can actually write in them. Well, these, these are, this five volume set is absolutely beautiful. So it's divided into, there's the Pentateuch, then the history books, the poetry books, the prophets and the New Testament. And so as you're studying those, you can open this up and spiral bound, lay it flat, take your notes, study. It's really beautiful. And if you want to really have a deeper interaction and reflect on Scripture, this is a great way to do this. Each volume has beautiful artwork on the COVID And not only are these fantastic resources for your own individual study, but they make absolutely beautiful gifts. If you're looking for something to give to your pastor or another ministry leader, this would be a great. You could give them one or you could give them the whole set.
- [22:53]
Melissa Krueger
So pick up your copy today of the ESV spiral bound journaling bible, the five volume set, and you can get that@crossway.org so how do we think of this in terms of scripture?
- [23:06]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think you're absolutely right. It's this, it's very much this cultural narrative right now of self care. And, and I just want to say like in even as I'm thinking about this, self care is good, rest is good. Rest is built into. The Lord has given us a day of rest. And, and that's a question too. Is, are, are we actually receiving rest from the Lord on the Sabbath when He intended us to, or are we trying to receive our rest at other times and in other places and in other ways? And so, but, but obviously rest is good. The Lord rested from his work. Jesus got away to a solitary place. He withdrew from the. There are absolutely. We need rest. We are finite, limited beings. So I want to be so clear on that. But man, we can overplay that. We can overplay this. Me time, rest time, self care. What do I need? I remember having a young woman reach out at one point saying, I'm getting ready to go speak at a retreat. And how, how do I make sure I, I take time for self care in the midst of the retreat? And I was like, you don't. Like you don't. There is a place for pouring yourself out. And so this, this tension between, and balance is not always the right word that makes it feel like oh, we are going to be on a balance beam and there is this thin line that we can hit that, that we're in the sweet spot. And that's just not it.
- [24:31]
Melissa Krueger
It's.
- [24:31]
Courtney Docter
It's more the tension of pulling us one way or the other. But I think all the time about Colossians 1:29, where Paul said, for this I toiled, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works in me. And I tell the Lord all the time, like, I need that. I need your energy to work powerfully in me. And then he said in Philippians 2:17, he said, even if I'm to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I'm glad and rejoice with you all. And then he tells us in second Timothy, I was, I have been poured out as a drink offering. And I've said for years, like I want my life to be characterized by that. Like I want. I told the Lord years ago, I want to leave it all on the table. Like I want to end my race with nothing left in me to pour out. Now that sounds. Oh, that's so. But I really deeply believe that. And that shapes how I think about these yeses and these no's. And, and so maybe we're in a cultural moment where we have to push back a little bit harder against, against maybe an idol of self care. So yeah, yeah, right. We want to care for ourselves.
- [25:47]
Melissa Krueger
But yeah, I think idolatry, it, it can be. And I think that's just such a good point about leaving it on the table. One of my friends actually says that, she's like, you know, we're getting them new body, we can wear this one out for the kingdom. And I think our culture is pushing us to preserve this even physically. Right? I mean, it's like, try to get to 80 looking like you did at 20. That's what the message culture is giving us and it. And that requires a lot of self care. But that's not the goal of my life. You know, the goal of my life is to not. To keep this body in such pristine state that it's never worn out, tired, weary. I mean, when I hear Paul, when you look at scriptures and when you look at him, he's like, yeah, I've been beaten this many times. I've been shipwrecked. You know, I've been night sleepless nights because of my concern for the churches. You know, he's bearing a lot. That's not self care. What?
- [26:51]
Courtney Docter
That's not self Care.
- [26:53]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah. He. You rarely even hear him say, and yet there's that one lovely passage. Do you remember when Megan was talking about this about, please bring my coat and the parchments? You know, it was like this in one of his letters. We'll find it for the show notes. So there is this level of, oh, he was able to express his need. So that's a right thing. That sometimes, maybe when we're serving the Lord, maybe when we're working on a project that really is taking a lot of us. Yeah, we asked some friends, hey, could you bring me a coffee? That's okay to ask, even for help. This does not mean we do everything on our own. But I think there's a right giving of self that may be lost on us culturally at this moment.
- [27:35]
Courtney Docter
Well, and even what you're just saying, it's not demanding it or creating it for ourselves, but it's receiving it from the Lord. I remember years ago when I was reading this really good book called the Envy of Eve. It. The author talked about, and I can't remember the exact context, but you may be able to help me. But something about receiving, like the. The gifts of rest and. And even joyful things. I think you were talking about a concert or something. And just how instead of demanding these things for ourselves, we can be surprised by how the Lord sees us and knows us and wants to give us rest. And so when we're waiting on him for those things and then he does it, I mean, I've been, you know, invited on vacations or give just all the things where it's like, oh, I wasn't thinking through, how am I going to create the space for myself. But instead you wait and see how the Lord provides it for you.
- [28:29]
Melissa Krueger
That's a beautiful way to frame it. So in these seasons where we've said these sacrificial yeses, we don't have to work rest for ourselves. We can go to our Father and say, will you give me rest? You know, will you lead me beside still waters? Because I can't get there myself. You know, I think we think of ourselves as needing his strength for what he's called us to do. But we also need his wisdom and his guidance to lead us to rest. And he promises to do that. And so I think our prayer isn't just, oh, help me endure, but, Lord, refresh me in this season. Lead me by those still waters. Give me what I need so that I can have rest. And I agree also with what you were saying about Sabbath. I think that's really missed in our churches today, just this notion of taking a day, a week to rest. That that's how we were created. So yes, we do need rest. And I think one thing I always have to ask myself when I'm feeling worn and exhausted and of work feels cumbersome, I have to look at myself and say, am I, am I taking Sabbath? Have I, you know, turned away and said, no, I'm going to do all these things on the Sabbath to fit it all in, whether it's entertainment or it's laundry. I mean, you know, it could be all of those things so that I have more time during the week to do what I consider important. I think that's a really good question. If I was really taking time on the Sabbath to rest in the Lord to be with his people. He gives us a whole day to do that. And so I think that's something I often neglect and it leaves me weary and ragged on the other side of that. And so again it goes back to remembering His Word is his goodness to us. You know, it's not meant to be a. Oh yeah, honor the Sabbath and keep it holy as a burden. But this is because I know how you're made and you do need this day of rest to spend thinking on the things of God. So do that. And you know what, you're gonna, you're gonna have what you need for the things I've called you to. And so that's, that's a really good question to even ask ourselves as we're thinking through sacrificial yeses and sac and hard nos. I love your concentric circles, but one of those being, how's my. How are my Sabbaths going?
- [30:53]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, yeah. It was a game changer for me to really press into, into, into what God has for us in Sabbath rest. It's a discipline, but man, it's life giving. But also, I was boxing with a friend this morning who. She's in the midst of a sacrificial. Sacrificial. Yes. And there's been a lot of suffering and a lot of hardship. And it's like. That doesn't mean you missed it. I mean, you and I are reading Helen Rosevir's little autobiography, Counted All Joy. She goes through a lot of suffering. She didn't miss it. She said yes to the things and the suffering still came. So in this conversation about like rest and self care and, and me time and all of that, to. To be in seasons where you feel poured out like a drink offering, to be in seasons when the suffering comes doesn't mean that your yes was wrong. It's part of where. Where we are in this, in the story. So. Okay, I want to ask you another question. So we hear a lot about. You know, I'm just gonna. You know, my gut told me, like, my gut told me to do this or my.
- [31:56]
Melissa Krueger
I don't know.
- [31:57]
Courtney Docter
You know, I was just, just. What is that old Rich Mullins song? Like, follow your nose, follow your heart. That's the other one. You know, follow your guy. And, you know, he says in that song, like, those things are all going to fail you, but the. The maker of hearts, the giver of noses, you know, like, he's the one that we're following. But anyway, so we hear this, and so how much attention do we give to. And you and I both have the. The actual, like, working genius gift of discernment. So our instincts both tend to be pretty strong. So how much attention do we give to these gut instincts when we're making decisions? And how do we know when the Holy Spirit is pushing us in one direction or if it's just. If it's just our flesh?
- [32:40]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think it's actually sometimes tough when you do have discernment because you can trust in yourself even more so and then realize, oh, I didn't even pray about this. You know, if. If you are a pretty discerning person, you're often pretty. You make pretty good choices, natur. And so can mean you don't pause to ask advice and pray and do the things that. That we know that we should. And I think what we all have to acknowledge, first of all, is our gut can be extremely wrong. Now, what I. What I do like to say and. Or follow our heart. Our heart is being transformed. If we are in Christ, if our heart of stone has been replaced by a heart of flesh, the good news is it's awakened to the spirit. It's actually alive. You know, before we were in Christ, our heart was dead. It was always. It was never going to choose life because it couldn't. Couldn't beat, it couldn't breathe. But now that we're in Christ, even our inclinations, the Lord is transforming them. So there's hope in that. And so then it gets to this question of, so how do you know when to go forward? How do you know when something is good? I mean, a verse that's really hard for me is that verse, and I should know where it is, but I'm just going to quote it off the Cuff, if anyone knows the good he ought to do and doesn't sins. Okay, well, for a people pleaser and for an ideator who can think of lots of good things she should be doing, you know, like it's really bad and, and so there, there's still this notion of we've got to say there are lots of good things in the world that we could do that we're not all supposed to do. And so, so then how do we get to that place? And I do think there can be a piece that really comes when we've prayed, when we've sought advice from others, when we've asked for wisdom, we've asked the Lord to just direct our paths that we can go forward confidently. And that doesn't always gonna mean it's going to be easy. I can, I know some of my friends have made really hard, hard choices. Yeah. Decisions that they have felt called to make that haven't necessarily been easy. But they really, they just, in their gut, in their soul, knew that this was calling, a calling to do. Because I, I do think in the Christian world sometimes we can be very protective of our friends and our family, you know, so, you know, right now my daughter's considering moving overseas to the farthest place from where I am. Right. I'm like, I don't know what that says about me. She's trying to get as far away as possible. When you can fly either direction and it's the same amount of time, it's as far away as you can get. And it would be really tempting to be like, why would you choose something so hard? Why live so far away from the people you love? Love and, but yet when the Lord impresses something on you, you will feel like you have to do it. And I, I think as a church, we need to not even just be okay choosing hard things ourselves, but allowing the people we love and supporting them when they make a hard call. You know, there are certain choices that different people are making that aren't going to be easy. And so how can we support them? Maybe it's our choice. You know, friend chooses to go to a really secular university and we say, hey, I'm going to pray for you in that, or works in the bank with no other Christians around them. And we say, hey, I'm going to enter into this hard decision with you and I'm going to pray for you in it rather than just running from the hard. I think there's some good encouragement we can give. But I, I, what I also want to say is sometimes we are 100% called to something and then we get in it and we realize it was just as hard as we thought it was, was going to be. And that's where we can trust that the Lord is going to provide what we need. And I, I do think that is when the time we spent in prayer asking for advice will actually be an encouragement and peace to our souls. You know, two years into a decision that did turn out to be really hard because we'll say no. I know the Lord called me to this. I think it was Elizabeth Elliot who said, or someone maybe, Jim, don't doubt in the dark. What was clear in the light.
- [37:07]
Courtney Docter
Exactly. Well, and do you remember years ago there was a book on marriage and the, the tagline was, what if marriage was meant to make you holy and not happy? And I think that that is applicable to more than just marriage. You know, what if this calling in life is actually for your sanctification, for your holiness, for your growth in Christ? Because that's what we're doing. We're all moving towards maturity in Christ. Christ. And that's, you know, that was the burden on Paul's heart that he would present everybody mature in Christ. And so I actually think about that tagline a lot in different things, whether it's my own things or, or, you know, things with other people, the hard things, it's culturally and then in us that if it's hard, it must not be right. And it's like, no, that is, that is never. You were mentioning the, the shipwrecks and the beatings that Paul experienced and he was in the dead center of God's will. And then my friend this morning, thinking about the suffering that she's going through as she said yes to a calling, is he's doing the best work in us and through us. And we think the best work is when he does it for us, like the comfy, convenient, restful me time thing. And that's just not it. And so, so, yeah, that can't be a piece of our discernment, right, that we look for what's easiest or what is most comfortable. But I think you're absolutely right that there is this, I've experienced it. There is a piece that passes all understanding as you're seeking God's will. And it's. Sometimes it's like, this doesn't make any sense. And yet I know deep in my soul, because I've sought him, I've sought the Lord and he answered me, that I feel in my soul that this is what I'm supposed to say yes or no to. And then like you said, there's confirmation from the body that matters, that other believers are discerning the Spirit and, and his work for you and are like, when we sold everything and went to seminary, we moved to, you know, St. Louis, that we had a lot of confirmation from the body and we had a lot of peace about it. And that was both a exciting yes and a very hard no at the same time. But also it has to be in line with scripture. You know, I had a friend years ago that was, she was convinced for. And she had no biblical reason for divorce. And she just said, I think the Lord wants me to be divorced. And it's like, no, but that's not like, no, we can't. So there are certain things in scripture that are clear that we don't actually have the freedom to say yes or no to. So anyway, yeah, I think discerning it, again, not formulaic, but in the context of community, knowing God's word, walking in faith and knowing that there's freedom. God is not a God sitting up there going like, I, I put you in the maze and you turned the wrong way and now I'm going to smack your hand and I'm going to send you suffering because you misunderstood it. And that's not how. That's not who our God is. Our God is kind and he. He walks with us.
- [40:04]
Melissa Krueger
I love what you were saying there too, about the. There are definitely places outside of God's word that are just definite no's, but there are also definite yeses. Like, like it's always a yes to be loving, peaceful, patient, kind, self control, like. So my best advice to give people when you don't know what to do is to consider what you know you're supposed to do, you know, so when you really don't know, when you're in these moments of I don't know. Well, in that moment, practice what you do know. Okay. He says, do not be anxious about anything, but by prayer and position, petition present your request to God. And the peace that transcends understanding will guard your heart, mind in Christ Jesus. So there are always steps we can take when we don't know what step we're supposed to take. You know, he. It's the. In theological terms, you know, we've got his revealed will and his hidden will. And so the revealed will is what we absolutely know we should do. His hidden will is maybe more like, should you volunteer at the soup kitchen or should you volunteer in the school system? You know, whatever. That's this hidden will that we're often. I think we spend a lot of time there and sometimes we forget, oh, well, I know I'm supposed to go to church on Sunday, so let me just do that. I know I'm supposed to pray. I know I'm supposed to read the Bible. So one thing we know we can be saying yes to are the things that Scripture encourages us toward. So we say full yes on those things. And, you know, the things that we know we're uniquely called to, that we can all that you and I can only be. If you're the roommate to someone, you can only be that person's roommate. So clean up your dishes. There are just some yeses that we need to do that we know we're called to do. Well, so I have loved this conversation with you about how to say yes, how to say no. And it's something I think I'm going to be working through until I'm 80 and hopefully I will get better at it and. But I think it's really good to think through in our life. Where do we need to sacrificially say yes? Where do we need to maybe say no to a good thing? Um, so let me ask you to close. What is something you are saying yes to right now that you're excited about?
- [42:25]
Courtney Docter
Ooh, well, I, I am saying yes to a few discipleship relationships that have been just life giving to me. That's the beautiful thing about discipleship is it is a two way street. And, and then I'm saying yes to being present. Now, the, the women at my church might disagree with me on this because I feel like I'm gone a lot, but being present as much as possible, I love my local church. It's, it's. And I know I'm called to that. Like, I know I'm called to that. And so trying to prioritize, we actually don't live really close to our local church, which is a, you know, that's a whole conversation we can have on another Deep Dish episode maybe sometime. But. But being present at my local church as much, as much as I can. What about you? What is something you're saying yes to or saying no to right now?
- [43:15]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, actually, when I was thinking about this question, I was like, oh, I'm actually saying no this year to reading the Bible throughout a year. It's, you know, which is something, you know, I love doing and I often recommend. I said no to that this year so I could say yes to doing memory work. Work. And that part of that is because my brain feels very slow and old. And I was thinking maybe I can't do memory work anymore. And I have found that I can actually memorize scripture. I'm not too old. This old dog can learn a new trick. And so it's been something I've been saying yes to, and I have been struck by how good it is for me to do it is a hard. Yes, I will say it is not easy for me, but it has pushed me in some good ways. And it's really been such a good way for me to meditate on God's word in different ways and go deeper rather than broader. And so, but it required a no, honestly, time wise, I couldn't, I couldn't fit in both. And so to spend time just memorizing some different psalms.
- [44:17]
Courtney Docter
Well, and on the newsletter, we're spending this whole year memorizing Psalm 34.
- [44:20]
Melissa Krueger
That's right. That's right. So it's, it's, it's allowed space for that. So, so that's that example of saying no to a good thing so that it gave space for another good thing is what I would say. And so I've really, really enjoyed getting to actually memorize and really think deeply about one passage rather than think, you know, than read a breadth of scripture.
- [44:44]
Courtney Docter
Well, and I'm so glad that you said a sacrificial yes to this podcast because I love these conversations. I have so much fun with you. And even that, like, I'm challenged. I'm like, okay, where, you know, I, last year writing that Bible study with Hunter, I, she really challenged me to, you know, into scripture memory. And I'm like, okay, 2025. Let me see where I can press into that even more. So glad you said a sacrificial yes to this. And friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you have found this conversation helpful, then we hope that you will like and subscribe and leave a comment. And friends, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, then we hope you'll like and subscribe and maybe leave a comment. And we encourage you to support the work of TGC so we can make more content like this. See you next time.
- [45:41]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your face. We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, Memory Verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.