← The Deep Dish
The Deep Dish
Season 1: Your Questions, Our Answers
00:37:25
Melissa and Courtney answer questions submitted by listeners about ministry, marriage, loneliness, and their favorite pizza toppings!
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- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker
Couldn't make it to the Gospel Coalition's 2025 National Conference. Don't worry. You can now watch keynote talks from John Piper, David Platt, Alistair Begg, Mark Vogop and more, as well as dozens of breakout sessions from the comfort of your own home. Or gather some friends and family to watch along. Go to tgc.org on demand. That's tgc.org ondemand you know, if you.
- [00:25]
Melissa Krueger
Have a teen who is not interested in the Bible, I think one of the best ways to them to read and study the Bible one is to take them to church every week. I mean, like, I can't stress it enough. When you hear the Bible read and you hear the Bible preached, you're going to start getting good skills for interpretation. And then they need to see you all doing it in your life. Your example of seeing you read it and continue to study it, then they start seeing, oh, it's not just for Sunday. It should be part of everyday life. Foreign.
- [01:05]
Courtney Docter
Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Docter and I am here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger. And today you guys set the topics. We asked you for questions and you did not disappoint us. And so we want to start off by saying that we do not consider ourselves to be the answer people. I love calling these a cure Q and R rather than a Q and A because I don't have the answers but I will respond. So this is a question and response and most of these questions don't have one right answer. But we do want to have a really good conversation about them, don't we, Melissa?
- [01:44]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. And we'd love for you, as you hear these questions, to put your answers in the chat. Like, we'd love for this to be something that we can talk about online, on social media or whatever because these were great questions.
- [01:57]
Courtney Docter
They were.
- [01:57]
Melissa Krueger
We had so many good questions submitted. I think we might need like two or three episodes to cover them all. So today we're not going to be able to answer everyone that was submitted, but we did have some really good ones that we wanted to jump in. And so we're just going to take these. We kind of grouped some of them together. So the first section we had a lot of really good ones about Bible study and ministry. One thing we love about our audience is you guys like going deep too. These were we had one really good surface one. We're going to save that one for the end it's actually my favorite question that anyone asks.
- [02:31]
Courtney Docter
Mine too.
- [02:31]
Melissa Krueger
That one for the end, and that one was fun. But let's start. I love this one. This was from someone who sent in what is a good way to get constructive criticism on Bible teaching without falling into people pleasing? And Courtney, I really, when I heard that question, I was like, I want Courtney to answer that because it's such a good question and you're so good at this. Courtney is way better at this than I am. She gives such good feedback, and you do it really well. So. So share with us some wisdom.
- [03:03]
Courtney Docter
You're so kind. I do love this question. You know, as women, so often we just go up to somebody and we're like, that was so good. Or, or we're super critical, right? Like, it can go either, either direction. But with the positive affirmation, we just say, it was good. And as a, as a Bible teacher, I'm like, but I don't know what was good. I don't know what I should do again, I don't know what I should repeat. And so I learned a long time ago two things. One is to give people categories to ask them ahead of time to give, like, to be prepared to listen in a way that, that they can offer you feedback. And I always ask for it in three categories. Can you give me feedback in my content, my structure, and my delivery? And so that gives people a framework to say, you know, okay, the structure was really clear. I could see how your message was structured according to the text. I could see how you followed the text. But your delivery was a little awkward and it was a little stilted, and you got some things to work on there. And so, and, and yet, and the content was biblic. Maybe it wasn't the main point of the text. So it gives people categories in, you know, into which they can speak. And then I think one of the most telling things is to ask people, after you teach, can you tell me what my main point was? And if they cannot articulate it or they tell you a different main point than what you were trying to have, then you actually didn't communicate the main point. And then you have to ask yourself, and is that the main point of the. The text? And so, so give people categories, tell them ahead of time you want feedback. And remember that both the positive and the negative comments are, are meant to shape you and to direct you, but don't do what I call chew the cud. So you know how cows, they chew on something, they swallow it, they regurgitate it. They chew it again. I think they do this like seven times. But we do that with comments, we do it with praise, and we do it with criticism where we just roll it around in our minds over and over again. And I don't think that's the purpose of either one of them. I think we take the positive, we take the negative, and we allow the Lord to use it for his purposes in our lives, and then we walk away from it. So, anyway, that's probably a long answer, but I do, I do love talking about that because we're not going to grow as Bible teachers if we're not getting helpful and on target feedback. Okay, this next question, I think it's for you because you wrote this great book, Parenting with Hope. And so this is a question specifically about parenting teens. And it says, the person asked, what are some practical ways to teach a teen to read or study the Word without it feeling forced on them?
- [05:45]
Melissa Krueger
I, I laughed when I saw this question. And you were like, yeah, I want you to answer that one. Because I was like, I did ask my teens this and they all looked at me and they were like, no, mom, we don't want to have a family Bible study. We know how to study the Bible already.
- [06:00]
Courtney Docter
They were like.
- [06:01]
Melissa Krueger
And my husband said that to me, like, all of them. And I responded, y' all are all a bunch of pagans. And that's what went in our home. So we have the perfect family Bible study that everybody wants to emulate, I'm sure. But I would say this. You know, if you have a teen who is not interested in the Bible, I think the reality is, and my kids actually are interested in the Bible. So I said that to them and I, I give that, I give them a hard time. We were laughing about it. But I think one of the best ways to teach them to read and study the Bible, one is to take them to church every week. I mean, like, I can't stress it enough. When you hear the Bible read and you hear the Bible preached, you're going to start getting good skills for interpretation as long as you're in a church that's teaching the Bible. So let's back that up. Go to a church that's teaching the Bible and then they're going to hear that every week. And then they need to see you all doing it in your life. Your example of reading the Bible, I always say this to young parents. I think this is really important. It's so tempting to read your Bible on your phone and to get all your Bible reading in an app. And I really think it's important for you as a parent to pull out a physical Bible and for your kids to see you reading it on a regular basis because they think you're scrolling social media. And I know the apps are more convenient sometimes and you can listen, I get that. But it's really helpful to have a physical Bible. So your example of seeing you read it and continue to study it, then they start seeing, oh, it's not just for Sunday. It should be part of everyday life. And then after that, I really do believe you can teach them some basics, like, what does the text say? Observation. You can teach them interpretation. What does the text mean? And you want to actually talk about what does it mean to the original audience and what does it mean to the broader church in the broader church context today. And then you can talk to them about how to apply it. This can all be done in like a once a week family Bible study, which I was trying to get my family to do, but they were like, we got it, mom. We know how to do this. And, and I, and I do think they knew how to do this. But I think those are just some simple ways. Observation, interpretation, applic that if your kids can kind of leave the home knowing those skills, they're in a really good place to start interpreting the Bible. What do you think, Courtney? Do you have any other, any other.
- [08:26]
Courtney Docter
Thoughts on that one? I liked how you just said they have to see you doing it and it has to be alive. Right? We have to talk about what we're learning. I mean, you and I do that, right? We'll vox each other and be like, what? That's a little phone app that we use that we love way too much. And that's who should sponsor our podcast. Honestly, with how many times we talk about Voxer, that's who should sponsor our podcast. But we, you know, we'll talk about, like, what we learned that morning in our reading and what we see. And so when it's living and active in your own mind and your own heart and, and you're excited about it, I think that can't help but be contagious and real. It's not legalistic or a checklist. It's life itself, like Moses told the Israelites in At the end of Deuteronomy.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think that's such a good.
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Melissa Krueger
Point because the more excited you are about it, the less it's going to feel forced. I think that's really just important. Like, but the more I think we act so stressed about things like, are you reading your Bible every day? Are you like, it. Look, teens want to not do things we want them to do, right? Like, I mean, I actually found my son sneaking around, shutting his door to read his Bible. Like, you know, I'm like, what are you doing in there? And he'd be like, nothing, you know, or whatever. He, like, didn't want me to know. They don't. Yeah. So I think sometimes it's. It's good to remember in this age, it's better to just, you yourself be excited about it, share your excitement. Like, when they're talking about something like, oh, that reminds me of something I was reading this morning. But in the teen years, I do think you want to make sure they have a Bible. You want to say, this is really important, but that's going to be shown more by your example than your words. At this point, I think the younger they are, the more you can say, hey, this is, this is what you need every day. And you can keep saying that to teens, but they think everything's forced on them in some ways, like brushing their teeth is forced upon them. So don't, don't be discouraged if they feel that way is all I'm trying to say. Like, just keep reading it yourself, knowing that one day, hopefully they will come to the water and drink. Okay, so this is a question for you, Courtney. How did you know it was time to go to seminary? This was really interesting. What advice would you give women considering seminary?
- [10:47]
Courtney Docter
Well, it was a privilege to go. I didn't go until I was in my 40s. And I would say the point for all of us is to be theologically educated formally or informally. And so we can pursue theological education on our own in our homes by reading good books, by continuing to learn and grow, by taking courses online. I know, I know. Covenant Seminary rts, they offer their courses for free online. You can, you can continue your theological education without being enrolled in a seminary. So part of that is discerning whether or not you need the equipping. We all need the equipping, but whether you need the credentials, and so the credentials, that's going to require a degree. And if you do, and it's possible, my encouragement is go. It was a beautiful thing. And there is part of learning that is accelerated when we submit ourselves to an authority on it. When I had to, I didn't just read it, I had to take a test on it, and I had to talk about it in my class with my classmates and with my professor. And so there is something about Formal education, that does increase our opportunity to learn the information. But I looked after seminary. I was looking at a PhD program, and a friend of mine, one of my professors, said, well, what would it be like for you to start it but not complete it? And I remember thinking, oh, I could.
- [12:10]
Melissa Krueger
That's.
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Courtney Docter
No, I could never do that. I can't start something and not finish it. You know, that just felt. And he said, but would every class further your education? And I thought, oh, yes, it would. And so this idea. So formal or informal, complete or incomplete, there are many ways to be theologically educated. So the point is, pursue it. But if you have the opportunity to go to seminary, there is something really special and helpful about the learning environment that is created when you have an authority on the subject and teaching you, and then you submit yourself to the testing and the grading and all of that. So it's helpful.
- [12:47]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. I mean, I just think when you know you're going to be tested on something, you learn it differently.
- [12:53]
Courtney Docter
You do.
- [12:54]
Melissa Krueger
I mean, it just makes you pay attention to all the details. Because they might ask about the details, all the things we just kind of skim over. It forces you to pay attention to. So I do think there's something about learning when you're being graded and then.
- [13:07]
Courtney Docter
When you get a bad grade, and then you remember, like, I'm not going to make that mistake again. Those things stick in my mind. You know, I've told that example before where it's like, I was told to write a paper on a Bible study, and I went, and they were studying a Tim Keller book, and I never crossed my mind. And she was like, this is a book study, not a Bible study. And I was like, oh. So it, like, really differentiated those things in my mind. Okay, Melissa, you and I. I'm just going to go to the next question. You and I have both been on staff at. At a church, at a local church. And so I thought this question was really good, but we're. But we also are female church members in our local churches. And so how. This is the question. How do you grow relationships with pastors and elders? As a female church member, I thought that was a really great question. Because it is hard, right?
- [13:57]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, it's a really good question. And it made me think about this. And I was just like. Because I'm also. And you're in the same boat. You're married to a past and an elder. You know, I mean, so you see it from both sides. Meaning, like, I'm like, how did he make friends with women? Like, I'm seeing it from that side, too. And I was. I mean, this is going to sound kind of strange, but, like, the first thing I would say is treat them like normal people. You know, I mean, I think sometimes we go into relationships with our pastors and our elders thinking, how are you going to take care of me? Rather than maybe say, hey, I'm so thankful for what you do.
- [14:36]
Unknown Speaker
How, what's.
- [14:37]
Melissa Krueger
What could I be praying for for the church? You know, like, going into it with a sense of being a friend, not just expecting them to care for us. I think that's a mistake. I've made a lot. Like, I've looked at, like, oh, I think the elders in my church or the pastors in my church should always be taking care of me. And I forget sometimes that they're human and that they might just need a real prayerful sister in their life, and maybe I could be that in their life. So even just to ask, ask, what'd you do this weekend? Yeah. Just be interested in their life, too, and. And take the time to get to know them as people, not just leader in the church, not just, why did they plan the picnic on that day? I mean, I can get.
- [15:20]
Courtney Docter
Right.
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Melissa Krueger
That trap of just being, like, questioning of them rather than just getting to know them.
- [15:26]
Courtney Docter
Right. Don't always take them. A problem to be solved. Right.
- [15:29]
Melissa Krueger
Yes. Yes. What about you? Have you just built a first, a friendship with pastors and elders in your church? That's that brother and sister relationship that we want to have.
- [15:43]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, I think just having them over for dinner, like, as you're thinking about just the way you interact with other people in the world in your life, include them in those things. You know, if you're. Yeah, have them over for dinner. Have them over for an afternoon, you know, picnic, whatever. I saw a woman in seminary did this, and I thought it was such a great thing, if you're feeling. Because especially in complementarian churches, sometimes we don't feel like we have as much access to the pastors and the elders and the ministry leaders, and we don't know the best way to go about having that access. So not just relational. If it's relational access, then yeah, have groups over for dinner, do that. But if you're looking for, like, theological access and you want to be able to ask good questions, what this woman in seminary did is she realized that the female students didn't have as much access to the male professors. And so she set up these small group forums, these little dinners where maybe 10 women would get Together and one of the professors would come and we could, you know, we had dinner and, and ask questions. And I think you can do that. I think you can say, hey, there's a group of like six of us that are super interested in having like conversations with somebody who's maybe seminary trained or theologically astute. Would you be willing to meet with us once a month for a year in this setting? And that was a really, that was a really helpful thing. And a lot of my single friends have said, you know, as a, as a convictionally complementarian woman, I long to have conversations not just with my sisters, but with my brothers. And as a single woman, sometimes that can be harder. They don't have as much, they don't have a husband to turn to and, and I know that's been really sweet for Craig when we have our single friends over to have these conversations with women who might not otherwise feel comfortable having that. And so these relational, you know, multi dimensional relationships through dinner. And maybe you go play pickleball or tennis, maybe you go kayaking. I don't know. You just have groups that do things together. I don't know where kayaking came from. I don't actually kayak. I like.
- [17:55]
Melissa Krueger
What are you talking about?
- [18:01]
Courtney Docter
Melted. Climbing together. I don't know. I don't know where my brain goes sometimes. Anyway, together. I think that's what I'm saying.
- [18:13]
Melissa Krueger
On that note, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to hear from our sponsor and then we'll be right back.
- [18:19]
Courtney Docter
I am so thankful for our sponsor, Crossway. They produce and publish such amazing resources for the church. And Lydia Brownback, one of our favorite people, has, has produced this series. Flourish is a series of Bible studies where Lydia has taken different books of the Bible. She's working her way through all of them. And what she wants us to do is be able to study this overarching storyline of the Bible, but to do it book by book. Melissa, tell us a little bit more about this series.
- [18:53]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, you can either do these individually or better yet, you can do them with a group. They're 10 weeks, which is nice that they're all the same length. You know, you can just say, I'm going to be spending 10 weeks in this study. They have great questions to make you think about the text. I know sometimes I read the text and then I'm like, what did I just read? And so it's so nice to have a Bible study guide like this that can really help you, help ask questions that make you go deeper into the text. What does it really mean? What's it saying? How am I to live in light of it? And this, these studies do all of that as you work your way through.
- [19:30]
Melissa Krueger
Different books of the Bible.
- [19:32]
Courtney Docter
So go to Crossway.org and see which ones have already been written. But you can also, if you want 30% off and who doesn't love a deal, go to Crossway.org and sign up for a Crossway plus account and start working your way through the Flourish Bible Study series. Welcome back. Well, this is a great question for Melissa because she is so good at this. So the question is this. So we're kind of moving away from the topic of Bible study and ministry into relationships and spiritual growth. But this one, the question was, what practical tips can you give on asking questions that get conversations going into the heart?
- [20:15]
Melissa Krueger
I don't know if I'm so good at this, Courtney. I feel like I'm really good at making people cry. And you're gonna say it's because, I mean.
- [20:25]
Courtney Docter
For our listeners, everybody thinks Melissa is the nicest person in the whole world. And 99.9% of the time, she is. But she also has this kind of warped sense of humor where she likes to like, like, send me things that scare me. So that's why I say I just.
- [20:41]
Melissa Krueger
Like to torture you a little bit, and you act like it's such a big deal. But honestly, I. I think it's interesting. I think when we think about life so often, we just talk about what we're talking about rather than ask per purposeful questions. Have you ever just been in a conversation when you're like, we just spent a whole hour and a half at dinner, and I don't know that we really talked about anything?
- [21:08]
Courtney Docter
Yes.
- [21:09]
Melissa Krueger
And that drives me crazy. So I end up. I end up always bringing the like, okay, let's. You know, I'll just say part of this. I'll say this is remembering what's important to each person at the table. So it's remembering what you actually want to catch up with people on. Like, hey, Courtney, I know it's been hard about dealing with your co worker Melissa, at work. Can you tell me how that relationship's going? You know, I mean, it's.
- [21:40]
Courtney Docter
It's.
- [21:40]
Melissa Krueger
It's taking bits we've heard along the way with people. And following up on that, I've just found that that can lead to really good conversations or just. I mean, sometimes it's asking the question, hey, what are y' all studying in the Bible right now? I'm feeling behind on things. What are y' all learning? Do you have any good podcasts you're listening to? Any good books you're reading? I find that just brings, it opens the door for deeper conversations just to ask those type of one follow up questions with our friends, but also, what are they ingesting questions like, what are they what, where are they learning? Where are they growing? Because then I can benefit from that growth and be like, oh, I want to listen to that podcast. I want to go and read that book. I was just doing that last week with a friend and she told me she had been reading Francis Schaeffer's the Lord's Work in the Little Way. The Lord's Work in the Lord's Way. And I ordered it and one, I was pleasantly surprised. It's the tiniest little book. I thought it was going to be a book book. It's tiny. And I read it and it was so encouraging. Just, just because you ask a question, hey, what are you reading? What about you? How do you like to go deep with people?
- [22:50]
Courtney Docter
Well, I just think everything you're saying is so helpful because how often do we sit in a conversation and what we're thinking about is the next thing we' to say? And so even just for me to pay attention to, how often am I doing that? How often am I making statements rather than asking questions? How often is the conversation about me versus about them? And I think what you said, this idea of remembering what they said and then following up on it, I feel like that is a real weak spot in my, in my life, in my friendships. And I have a friend that does this so well. She remembers everything and she follows up on it. And I'm always, I feel so seen and so known and so loved when she does that. And, and so, yeah, I think just that. Truly paying attention, true active listening, following up with, with questions. And I've shared this before, but you know that little piece of newspaper clipping that I've talked about that my mom had on our phone desk where it said little people talk about other people, average people talk about things and great people talk about ideas. Now there's a lot that I would, you know, want to nuance in that for sure, but it does. I pay attention to the content of the conversations and if I'm talking about other people, especially in a negative way, then I want to steer away from that. But if I'm talking about just things. Right, that's kind of what you were talking about. You realize you walk away from A conversation you realize you didn't talk about anything of substance, but then to move towards talking about ideas or feelings or thoughts and asking questions. And so even just pay attention to the content I think of, of the conversation. Okay, this one was from a young woman who said, I'm getting married this fall to a wonderfully godly man. First of all, congratulations. And then she said, do you have advice or encouragement for newlyweds? And I just started in my mind rattling off in contra to what I just said about listening and asking questions. I immediately came up with all these declarative stu statements that I wanted to just like, spit off because that's my mo. Let me just give you advice. And she's asking for it.
- [24:58]
Melissa Krueger
But Melissa, no, you start. I want to hear your advice. You've got all these thoughts. I'm like, I don't know.
- [25:06]
Courtney Docter
Oh, I mean, just what things I wish, you know, that I had been better at, especially in the beginning. Like, keep short accounts, forgive quickly and often. Keep the long view in mind. Like, my mom is the best at keeping the long view in mind. And the way she's just kind of been able to bear with like any. That's true for any relationship. But then this whole idea of not expecting marriage or your spouse to make you happy, and I think that that is where a lot of us go wrong. And we, we expect this thing to fix loneliness or to fix sadness or purpose or you know, lack of, like, whatever it is. And that's not God's intention for either marriage or your spouse, but instead and to have this idea of, oh, we are going to grab hands and we are going to build a life together and we are going to do it in a way that is imperfect, but we are constantly moving towards each other. You know, I had a counselor say one time disruption, like an argument disruption and relationship is not the problem. It's if you don't repair. And so like to not be super freaked out about the disruptions, but to really work towards repair. And that long view of like, okay, hey, this is who I've grabbed hands with and we are building a beautiful life together and we are working hard at it. So just all those things of like, you know, not to put too much weight in the actual marriage or the person, but to put all the weight of hope and happiness in the Lord and be grateful for what he's doing as you, as you build this life with somebody.
- [26:41]
Melissa Krueger
That's so good. I mean, just listen to what Courtney said. You're good at advice giving. That's the problem. I mean, and I do think, think I do think I would, I would, would encourage, go listen to the deep dish on marriage because I think that had a lot of really helpful things that different people said. But I also always like to say you don't have to fix them. Like, I think that is our temptation. And here's the thing, any person.
- [27:11]
Courtney Docter
You.
- [27:11]
Melissa Krueger
Know, we're going to have a rub. Just like you were saying, no one is going to fill every part of us. No one is. We're not going to like, like, you know, 100% of anyone because we're all sinners. So choosing to focus on the 80% you love about the person rather than maybe the 20% that you like. Oh, I really wish he did this. Or I mean my lists were crazy before marriage. You know, like, I wanted him to do this and this and this. I want to play guitar. Mike didn't play guitar. It was a real problem. These are, these are just all preferences. Right. And I think what you start to realize in your first year of marriage, you have a lot of expectations you didn't even know you had. I know, like, and a lot of it comes from your family of origin. So whatever your dad did, you just expect your husband's gonna do.
- [28:03]
Courtney Docter
If on my parents wedding anniversary every year my dad gives my mom a gift, my mom doesn't give my dad a gift. So that was my expectation. And Craig was like, well, this is our anniversary.
- [28:13]
Melissa Krueger
He's like, I want my gift, I want my gift.
- [28:16]
Courtney Docter
I was like, oh, that's not how it works in my family.
- [28:19]
Melissa Krueger
No. And so I think it's actually someone told us that every family has a premise like your family premise. And so to think what was the family premise you had growing up? And then what's the family premise you want your family to be about? So I thought that was a really interesting. Because you're both coming in to this new marriage with your families had ways of operating and so know you have to even acknowledge what it was in the past so that you can move forward in the future. So I think those are just good things to talk about as a couple. What, what, how did your family work? And then how are we going to do this together?
- [28:58]
Courtney Docter
Oh, definitely. I want people to put comments, I want them to offer their advice in the comments.
- [29:02]
Melissa Krueger
That's good. Please give marital advice to this newlywed couple. I need to ask you a question.
- [29:08]
Courtney Docter
Okay.
- [29:09]
Melissa Krueger
You've been, you've been asking all the questions and I think this is a really good one. So we Talked a little bit about Bible study and things like that. We've talked relationships. Those were some of the questions that came in. And this one is a little bit more devotional and impersonal. What has helped you grow in your affection for the Lord?
- [29:28]
Courtney Docter
I mean, it's. It's him. Like, he. His faithfulness, his kindness, his mercy. He just. He just shows Himself so beautiful at every turn that how can my affections not grow towards Him? And, you know, there's a. There's a correlation, I think, between me getting to know him better through how he's chosen to reveal Himself in His Word. So he's. He's chosen to reveal himself, who he is through telling us who he is and showing us who he is in His Word. And so as my knowledge of him grows, and then I turn and I look at my life and I see these things. Things play out in my life. You know, the way he told Moses, I am a God, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. Well, I've seen those things in my life. And so. So I think my. My affection grows as I see the fact that this is who he says he is in His Word, and this is who he's proved himself to be in my life. And so then my job is to remember and to believe that this is what he's done. Like, what is the. The line from the Him? Oh, how I've proved Him over and over.
- [30:44]
Melissa Krueger
I was. Oh, really? Just thinking, what is that Him? Jesus.
- [30:49]
Courtney Docter
Nobody wants how I love Thee.
- [30:50]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, I was. That is weird.
- [30:53]
Courtney Docter
Nobody wants us to sing.
- [30:53]
Melissa Krueger
We Hang Out Too much. Because I was thinking that I was gonna start with that hem line.
- [30:58]
Courtney Docter
Okay. You. Then you tell. You talk about how I can't remember all the lines. What's that him like, nobody wants me humming it to try to remember how I've proved Him over and over. But you're right, because it's should be the right he's proved himself. But.
- [31:14]
Melissa Krueger
Okay, yes, Jesus. Jesus, precious Jesus. But that was the one I was thinking of. That exact passage.
- [31:20]
Courtney Docter
I love that.
- [31:22]
Melissa Krueger
But yeah, I think. I mean, it's like anything spending time. And with just any relationship, when you spend time with someone, well, hopefully your affection grows.
- [31:33]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, with God it will. Yeah, exactly.
- [31:36]
Melissa Krueger
Why not? But with God, it's actually the opposite. You know how when you first fall in love with someone and then you're like. They're like, well, wait until you really get to know them.
- [31:44]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [31:45]
Melissa Krueger
And then, you know, your affection may Wane a little bit when you get to know someone. Whereas with the Lord, it really is. He just proves his goodness more and more. And it's like what I believed about God at 14 when I first started walking with Him. I now still believe, but I believe with a deeper knowing.
- [32:05]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [32:06]
Melissa Krueger
And it's the knowing of experiencing life with him and seeing his ways are proven true over and over and over again. So there's this deep affection of and this deep question in my heart. Why did you save me out of all? Why did you choose me? This gratitude I will never get over of. Why did you pluck me out of a completely. What could have been a completely wasted life? And you saved me. I mean, I. All, all I feel is just gratitude. So the more I think about.
- [32:39]
Courtney Docter
Why.
- [32:39]
Melissa Krueger
On earth would you save me? And then the future hope of heaven, you know, it's just this. Okay, I've just realized walking with the Lord puts this, this life into right perspective. And so it continually grows my affection for him and. Yeah. Anyway. So. Okay, last question. Well, we have one last question, but that's not last deep question. What are your go to verses for lonely seasons of life?
- [33:09]
Courtney Docter
I love this question, and I've certainly told the story before, but I. Early in marriage, we made a cross country move. I found myself in entirely different situation in every way, shape or form. It was really hard. And it was a good year, year and a half where I literally had no friends. And you know, so I've. I've been in that season where it's like there's nobody. I mean, I. My husband was gone. He was working full time in grad school. Full time. We weren't near family. It was just culturally, it was different. It was a very, very hard season and what the Lord. So I would say the first thing I would encourage you with if you're in a lonely season is I look back on that as one of the times that the Lord did something of his greatest work. He changed me so much in that. And I am so grateful. But now, you know, we moved three years ago and, and at my age and getting reestablished and, I mean, there are definitely lonely times. And I was thinking about 1st Peter 4, 8 through 10 that says, above all, love each other deeply because love covers over a multitude of sins. And then he goes on to kind of explain how we love each other deeply. He says, offer hospitality to one another. Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms. And I thought that's really. The antidote to our loneliness is serving. It's like, yeah, invite people over, serve others, use your gifts, invest in your local church. It's actually an outward focus, not an inward focus. And so I started off by explaining that I do understand what loneliness is. So this isn't like, oh, just put a band aid on it. It's actually the anecdote is to look at your local church and say, how can I pour myself out and invest deeply in that place? And I promise you, the Lord will meet you in it. What about you?
- [34:59]
Melissa Krueger
No, that's so good. And I think because both of us did women's ministry, I think the thing we both learned. I don't know if you learned this. Everyone feels lonely.
- [35:07]
Courtney Docter
Everyone feels.
- [35:07]
Melissa Krueger
The person who's surrounded with all these people, they still feel like, does any. Do any of these people know me? Really know me? Everyone feels lonely at some point. I think that helped me, like, because you just hear people's stories. You sit with them and you hear, you know, the young girl in your church who's got eight roommates feels lonely. The mom in your church who's got 10 kids feels lonely. Yeah, I mean, the grandmother who's empty nesting and her grandkids live far away, she feels lonely. So I think. I think it's a common problem. One of the verses that I have turned to so much probably in the past six or seven years has been Isaiah 58, 11. Because I love this. And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and make your bones strong. You shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water whose waters do not fail. And I love this picture that he actually satisfies our desire in scorched places, that that's the place he brings us to satisfy us. And he, in this place of no water makes us a spring of life and life giving. I think this is a picture of what you were saying it that we become life giving to others even in the midst of the scorched place that we're in. It's that picture that outward giving, even when we feel empty and dry ourselves, that he does something. He is so great in us that even when we feel barren, when we are in a dry place, he can fill us so that we overflow. And I just think it's. It's proof of his work in us that can't be in our own strength. That's him being alive in us in these empty places. He overfills us so that we're overflowing.
- [36:58]
Courtney Docter
And then we can come comfort with the comfort that we've received. It's really beautiful. I love that. Okay, you want to get to our all time favorite question?
- [37:06]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [37:07]
Courtney Docter
You want to ask it?
- [37:08]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, sure. Okay. Favorite question that came in. We should have, we should have taken note of the person's name because I was like, oh, this person got the assignment. She understood.
- [37:17]
Courtney Docter
She gets us. Yes.
- [37:19]
Melissa Krueger
What is your favorite pizza topping?
- [37:23]
Courtney Docter
Well, she wrote it plural favorite pizza toppings. And I was like, oh, okay. We got to clarify that this I am, I am a do not put one vegetable on my pizza kind of girl. I'm like, I just want sausage. That's all I want. I just want a sausage pizza. Now if I have to add, if it has to be plural, it'll be meat lovers like I I. There is nothing dainty or, you know. No, it's not some thin crust, cauliflower crust veggie pizza. No, I want a deep dish sausage pizza. What about you?
- [37:55]
Melissa Krueger
That's good. Well, if it's deep dish, I just love a pepperoni deep dish. Because deep dish is so de. I just want all the cheese and the pepperoni. But we actually have this little place near us that you go and you order your pizza and you're allowed to put as many toppings as you want on it. It's this little hut.
- [38:11]
Courtney Docter
It's sausage, sausage, sausage.
- [38:13]
Melissa Krueger
And I put so mine. You will laugh at mine. This is my current favorite. It's pepperoni, sausage, garlic and banana peppers. That's my new favorite. Yeah. And the banana peppers might have some, some vegetable feel that might, you might.
- [38:30]
Courtney Docter
Not like because they are a vegetable. They are a vegetable. Yeah. I don't put veggies on my.
- [38:35]
Melissa Krueger
They're yummy.
- [38:36]
Courtney Docter
We're so glad that you asked that question though, so we can clarify this for all time. Well, this has been so much fun. We will definitely do a Q and R question and response episode again. So we're going to save some of these questions and we'll let you know when we're going to do that. But thank you for listening to the deep dive dish from the Gospel Coalition. As we head into the summer, we are going to start going to every other week. So it's going to be a new rhythm. Instead of every Thursday, these will be dropped every other Thursday. If you want to be one of the first to know when each episode drops, make sure you're signed up for the newsletter. There will be a link in the show notes, but we look forward to seeing you next time.
- [39:21]
Unknown Speaker
Hey, friends.
- [39:22]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends.
- [39:22]
Unknown Speaker
It's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you.
- [39:32]
Melissa Krueger
And we're so excited about it.
- [39:34]
Unknown Speaker
When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's tgc. Org Women.