Hunter Biles (3:17)

And what about you, Laura?

Laura Whiffler (3:19)

Yeah, I have been on social media since Instagram opened, so whatever year that was, 2010, 2011. But I remember the OG days of really bad filtered food photos on Instagram. Very fond memories of those days. And like Hunter, my story is very similar. I kind of started out blogging to, you know, an audience of about 10 people. And slowly over time, my sister in law and I launched Risen Motherhood, a ministry that has since come to a really beautiful ending. But it was an incredible 10 year long ministry where we just helped share gospel hope with moms, how their faith connected to their motherhood. And through that I had the privilege of writing a lot of books and continue to do that. I write for children and adults and you can find me on Instagram sharing most of my work at. Laura Whiffler is kind of like the main place where you can find my work and yeah, but the most important job I have is being a mom and a wife to my husband and three kiddos. I live in central Iowa and we really do have cornfields all around our house. You know, it's that whole kind of vibe. So a lot of fun here and I'm just happy to be on the show talking about this today.

Hunter Biles (4:28)

Yeah. And I love because social media helped me see that you had an ice rink this winter.

Laura Whiffler (4:34)

Yes.

Hunter Biles (4:35)

Which was so cool. I was like, oh, see?

Laura Whiffler (4:38)

Benefits to social media already.

Hunter Biles (4:40)

And living in Iowa, I mean, you can't do that in Charlotte.

Laura Whiffler (4:43)

No way.

Hunter Biles (4:44)

True.

Laura Whiffler (4:45)

That is all due to my Minnesota born husband, though he is bound and determined to enjoy the winter. Make us Iowans like it. It's a very big cultural difference between the Two states of how we view winter. And I'm really thankful to him because winter is much more bearable because of things like the ice rink. I love it.

Hunter Biles (5:02)

I love it. Well, so were you both. Was your first social media account Instagram, probably Facebook?

Laura Whiffler (5:10)

I. I had the college address, like one year of college address, and then it went public to everybody else.

Courtney (5:16)

But yeah, yeah, yeah, same z. I. You know, I remember we were required to have a. Edu email address in order to get Facebook. And so there were only college students on Facebook in the time in which I got on Facebook. And it was a moment, your senior year of high school, when you got your acceptance letter from a university that you could actually have, like this passage into social media. So Laura and I really were, you know, on the front running end of what we consider to be social media.

Hunter Biles (5:49)

Was it called the Facebook at that point? Was it.

Courtney (5:51)

Did I call it the Facebook?

Laura Whiffler (5:53)

I think, I think that was the first name. Mark Zuckerberg's first name. But no, I think it was just Facebook by the time we were there.

Hunter Biles (6:01)

Yeah, I think I was living overseas in Scotland when I first got on Facebook. And it was just this wonderful connection point with other people. I was living so far away. I had this baby and it was this very isolating time. Time of my life. And so, because the first question I want to ask you about some of the positives about social media, and one thing I really found for me was it was wonderful to connect with people. I mean, there were a lot of people that I hadn't seen in years, and all of a sudden they started popping up. And I remember thinking, oh, they have a baby too. I didn't know. And we can't really. It's hard to remember that world. But when I graduated from college, you just went your separate ways and you really didn't know what other people were doing anymore. So for me, it became this just. This is a wonderful way to see.

Laura Whiffler (6:53)

What people are doing who were my.

Hunter Biles (6:55)

Real friends at the time and who had just gone their separate ways. So that was a real positive for me. What about you all? What are some positives that you've seen from being on social media?

Courtney (7:05)

I remember those days. Those are like the glory days when you would hit the end of your news feed, like you couldn't continue being introduced to new people because it wasn't working like that at that point in time. And I completely agree. You know, now fast forward however many decades it's been, almost two since I started on social media. I really do appreciate the Connections that it has brought into my life. You guys are two of those people for me. Connections and friendships that just help me to think more deeply about certain topics. And I think part of that is exactly what we were talking about in regard to Laura's ice skating rink. Like, as somebody who grew up in Oklahoma, I never would have really known, like, that exists. It's not really something that shows up on movies or anything like that. And so it's really fun to have just our knowledge of what's going on in the world expanded and broadened. And sometimes it's not fun, sometimes it's sobering. And I think that can be a really helpful thing for us to broaden our perspectives. Like, I remember when we moved from, you know, Kentucky up to the New England area, I was interfacing with this whole different culture. And in many ways, social media enables us to do that by following different accounts from people not only in different places in the US but all over the world. And I've found it really, really helpful to have my perspective broaden like that. What about you, Laura?

Laura Whiffler (8:24)

Yeah, well, first of all, totally echo everything you're saying about the seeing the diversity of the world and all these different lifestyles. And then also, I'll just say on the flip side of that, this idea too, that social media allows you to find those people who kind of can relate to your very unique situation. You know, I have a daughter with rare chromosome disease, and it presents us to intellectual disabilities, but it's a very, very rare disease where she's the only one in the world that has what she has. And yet through Facebook, there is a group of parents that have gotten together and said, hey, our kids are somewhat similar. Similar. Let's all talk together about kind of what, how this is presenting, what therapies we're using, what new trials we hear about, things like that. And I mean, I think I might be the only one from the United States in that group because the group is so small. But it's really incredible that I can find these people all around the world and be united and feel just a little bit less alone in something that can feel very isolating. And so I think that's just something else that I've really benefited from. Social media is that you kind of realize, like, nope, I'm never alone. And you feel. You can feel. While social media can make us feel lonely, and I'm sure we'll talk about that, there's also this element of it can make you feel less lonely and kind of give you great Ideas and insights and new things to try for.

Courtney (9:42)

Sure.

Hunter Biles (9:42)

Can I tell you all something funny? So this will be, I mean, I think in your world because your publishing came almost after social media things, right? So when I published my first book, Envy of Eve, I didn't even have a Twitter account. Okay. I did. I mean, I don't even know if Instagram was out. And so one thing that was really hard was to find other writers. I didn't know any other female writers. And so I can remember we had this little Facebook group called Women who Write Stuff.

Courtney (10:15)

And I mean, I think I've heard about this before. Yeah, I love it.

Laura Whiffler (10:18)

This is like a legendary group.

Hunter Biles (10:22)

But it was this way to connect and it was so nice because it was this world. I can remember talking to Megan Hill the first times we were, we were sending articles off to the Gospel Coalition and we were like, how do you think they decide if they take our articles or not? We were like, is there some smoke filled room where editors are reading all these articles? And we just laugh now. I mean, but it was just nice to have someone else to connect with in a world that we were both a little intimidated by and you know, just to have conversations. It was really, really nice. Whether it's, you know, particular things with our families, maybe it's job connections that we found. Social media, it really has connected us in ways that, that are social. So that's the good, good side that we've all experienced. Can you, can you share any of the really tough sides of social media? What have you seen on the kind of the dark side of this platform?

Laura Whiffler (11:20)

Yeah, I mean, especially, I know all three of us really are content creators online and that can certainly come with different types of experiences and you know, but even if you're someone who just likes to view social media, I think there's a lot of negativity about it and that's things you really have to weigh. And I think everything from, for me, just kind of experiencing, you know, you just kind of realize that the world can be kind of mean and that online people just kind of lose control of who they are and their filters and they do things that they would never do in real life. And sometimes as a content creator, you're also the recipient of those things. And so that can certainly be a tough spot where you have to get something thick skin. But I would say mostly for me personally, just as a consumer, I feel like the fractured attention is probably one of the biggest negative things that has happened to me. There's so much science out There I won't repeat it all just about the value of deep work and being able to focus in on things. And I know that social media, just the time wasted through Hunter, you were alluding to this, but infinite scroll, now that that's out, that you will never reach the end of any social media site. It's built into every social media site, even the new. And I think that, that for me, at times I just. I feel like the one thing that I will regret is like I just spent too much time there. I lost track of a half an hour or I'm paying attention to this when I should be paying attention to my kids or I need to write and I really need that focus attention. And I can feel my brain sort of like hit some resistance in writing and then I want to go run away and escape to social media. So that is a constant challenge for me. And I think that that's probably if I were to say, like, what's the worst thing that's happened? Like, that element is something that I'm constantly fighting.

Courtney (13:09)

Yeah, that's it for me too. You know, just a distraction from what I'm called to do. Like, so what are the primary callings that God has placed on my life while I have, you know, these things that the Lord has called me to do? And sometimes, like we talked about, social media can actually be a help to me in that I have learned skills from social media that I employ in my everyday life that actually do serve my family and help me love my neighbor better. But there are a lot of times in which the distraction that social media kind of brings into my life disables me from loving others, well, from loving my neighbor, especially those who are within the four walls of my own home. So the distraction element is huge. And even when you're looking to the right and to the left, right, on socials, like on the screen on your phone and seeing what the Lord has called other people to do, and they're utilizing and leveraging social media maybe perhaps to do that thing. But the temptation is for me to want to, you know, try and measure myself up against what the Lord has called them to do. Comparison, you know, and so sometimes I get distracted from what the Lord's called me to do because I'm looking to the right and to the left and seeing, well, look at what she's doing over here. And then I just get lost in all of that. And it's so easy to do, particularly with the addictive components of our phones. And so I think at the root of it all, though, for me is the distraction from actually engaging that the work God has given me to do today.

Hunter Biles (14:40)

That's good. I want to piggyback on something you were just saying. Hunter. You know, again, I wrote Envy of Eve before I was even on Instagram. Okay. So it was this book on comparison and how that can rob us of joy. And what I realized slowly as I was on Instagram more and more and more was my neighborhood just got a lot bigger. You know, when you think about, like, the grass is greener on the other side. Well, now I got a lot of grass I'm looking at. And all of the sudden I realized, oh, families go apple picking every fall.

Laura Whiffler (15:15)

I'm a failure mother.

Hunter Biles (15:17)

Oh, y' all all put little signs saying, 6 months, 12 months, whatever. You know, I'm like, oh, I didn't do that. And I'm watching it with weddings because I just had a daughter get married and wow, that has changed the wedding industry. It's this comparison, right? And you don't even mean to, but you're like, oh, what are we supposed to do at a wedding now? Oh, well, you're supposed to have a bachelorette weekend and you're supposed to have matching pajamas and you're, you know, there's just this whole industry. It almost creates what it's supposed to be. And then you chase it without saying, do I care about having matching?

Courtney (15:59)

How much we are influenced. We think this is normal. And it breeds so much dissatisfaction in our everyday, like, present day lives. At least that is for me, that was the number two thing. Dissatisfaction instead of gratitude.

Laura Whiffler (16:13)

Yeah, yeah. As. As a real life example of that, I would say I went through building my house here about five years ago. Five, six years ago, we built house in Iowa as we moved here. And I was following all these, you know, online interior design accounts, home building accounts, and I could tell you someone's couch, exactly where it came from and where to find it. And I love interior design. This is truly a passion of mine. So it was like just a really fun kid in a candy shop moment. But it was about a year, two years into owning this house and settling in and kind of calling it done. And I'm like, ready for a new couch. You know, I'm like, oh, that thing's out of date. And honey, let's move it to the basement. Let's get another one. And I was just really cycling on. Well, this is my hobby. I enjoy this. This is fun. Like a lot of justification. And I realized that so much of these thoughts were coming directly from Instagram because I was viewing all this stuff and taking it and viewing it, you know, next to poetry, next to fashion, next to food. Like, it's all just mixed in there. But I went through and I unsubscribed from all of these home accounts, except for maybe, like, one or two that I felt like I wanted to stick with. And I was so worried, no, I'll never find them again. If I ever decorate a house, you know, you kind of have that FOMO feeling. But I did that. And you guys, I can totally tell you that it freed me from so much jealousy, envy, all of those kind of things were discontentment. And I, like, look around my home and I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty. I'm pretty happy with it. It feels pretty okay. I don't know if it's in or out of style, and I don't care, because what I see in front of me, I'm still happy with. I'm not seeing all these, like, other ideas of what it should be or could be. And so I, like, I always recommended this to friends. Like, if you are feeling those feelings of discontentment and jealousy, look at your feed and edit it ruthlessly. And you may think, I am learning and growing from these people. Like, I understand, you know, oh, I know how to mix metals and I know how to pick a fabric, and I know how to mix patterns because I learned it from these people. But the cost of learning and that education was discontentment. And so I had to step back and say, I would rather be content with my home and maybe know a little bit less in this area so that I can, like, go off and be faithful in the other things that God is calling me to.

Courtney (18:25)

I think that about that a lot with clothing.

Hunter Biles (18:27)

Yeah.

Courtney (18:27)

And for those of us who are, you know, increasing in age, sometimes there's this temptation to know, like, okay, what is relevant in terms of style, because we're not on a college campus every day seeing, like, what the kids are wearing. And I feel that with my own wardrobe. And I've had to think, like, okay, what is the cost of being in style? And you also have to think about what's driving this over consumption and really, the industry. And, Laura, I know you're so passionate about this, the industry that's behind Instagram and as consumers, it can feel like this very natural thing, like, that somebody that we're following who has a design account is going to paint their house again. Well, why are they painting their house again? It's because, like, Everything that they do, their. Their income is dependent upon the changes that they're making. So we have to be wise consumers realizing that, like, hey, just because these accounts, changing their clothes, their style, all of this, we realistically, we cannot keep up this pace. And we need to learn to be content with what the Lord has provided for us today. And actually, there's so much joy to be had there. Melissa, I'd love to hear you talk about that just all day long in light of Envy of Eve and really how the principles that are there, they have translated over time, right? Isn't that interesting?

Hunter Biles (19:42)

Yeah, it's really interesting. Even when I'm hearing you all talk, the visual nature of Instagram, whether it's our homes, whether it's what our children are doing, or I'll be honest here. When I look at my face, I get videoed too much, is how I feel. And I'm like, oh. In fact, just last night, a friend, a teacher who led our FCA in high school, they're going to celebrate her. Hopefully this will not come out before then. And they wanted us to send some pictures in. And I realized how few pictures I had of my high school self because it was film, camera, you know. And now, you know, anyone who's on Instagram, anyone who's on social media, anyone who works in certain spaces is recorded and filmed a lot. And I'll be honest, it can be harder the older we get to think, oh, it's not just that my house that's out of style, My face is out of style. Like, it is not botoxed. It is not improved upon in any way except some lipstick. And I, Courtney tells me regularly, I don't have enough on. I'm not. Like, you can slowly start to feel like, oh, I don't have anything to say. And so this leads me actually to our next question. How do we have to let the truth of God's word invade? Because what I know is the Bible tells me there is wisdom and wrinkles and there is wisdom in gray hair, even when I'm dyeing mine, there is wisdom there. But I can be tempted to think, oh, you age out of being able to share that wisdom in certain social media spaces because you don't look the part anymore. So what truths, though, help you maintain a healthy balance as you're on social media? Why do you stay? Like, why does the Bible actually maybe encourage you to be there? Maybe it encourages you not to be at some points. But, like, how do you let scripture protect your heart as you go into Social media spaces.

Laura Whiffler (21:47)

Yeah. I mean, one of the key verses that continues to guide everything that I do is Proverbs 4. 23. Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. And, you know, this obviously is very relevant to what we just spoke about with envy and discontentment. And even as a creator of, like, hey, what am I sharing? You know, what is. What is that leading me? What am I seeking and how I'm creating and producing? And then as I scroll, am I guarding my heart? Am I being wise? Am I following people that are pointing me to Jesus? And that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be a Bible teacher, though. I'm thankful that I do follow a lot of Bible teachers that help me learn. But I think there can be a way with a content creator as we interact with them, that you can sense that there. There is a humility and there is an element of desiring to serve and teach and help their followers instead of saying, hey, be just like me, you know, like, oh, I want you to just be obsessed with me or be a fan of me. Like, you can sense that difference. And I think just really being cautious with how I curate my feed to have women, even if they're not believers, but yet, like, what is their content doing to my heart? And that's one reason practically, I stay pretty far away from the explore section of different social media sites. So that's like the little. I think it's the magnifying glass, if you click on that. So obviously, sometimes I'll search for things. I mean, it's not that I'm never there, but to just randomly scroll down. I would say just personal advice, take it or leave it. But I would say that is an area to be really cautious in, because Instagram is trying to get you hooked in that moment or whatever. If this is Facebook, this is Twitter. Whatever it is, whatever you're using X, you guys, we have to update our terms. It's X.

Hunter Biles (23:34)

We still all call Twitter.

Laura Whiffler (23:36)

None of us are there. Well, Melissa, are you there? Are you on Twitter?

Hunter Biles (23:38)

Just rebellious. We're like, you can't just change names. Yeah, exactly.

Laura Whiffler (23:42)

It is hard to reprogram that, man. But the point being being really cautious, I think of how we are engaging in the algorithm to guard our hearts and to say, is this, you know, is this reflecting the fruit of the spirit? Is this something that is. Is true and beautiful and reflecting the goodness of God's glory? Or is this something that, you know, just doesn't. Doesn't point me to Jesus? And for what is it what. And what it is for one woman might be different for the next. And that's important to remember, too, that we each have our vices, we each have our proclivities, and just to kind of know thys, you know, know who you are and be honest with what's hard and what it maybe isn't bothering you. Also, you can feel a lot of freedom, too. If someone's like, that's hard for me, but it's not for you, you can also feel freedom in that.

Courtney (24:32)

Yeah, I want to piggyback on that, because I really think a helpful guiding principle for this is considering what the Lord has called you to. Because, Laura, the Lord has called you to write and to share beauty and truth through your words, specifically on Instagram, through poetry. And you do that to the glory of God. And so the Lord has placed different callings on each one of our lives. Right. So we have to consider, is social media actually helping us to do the thing that the Lord has called us to do, or is it hindering us now? If you don't know exactly. There are things that are explicit in scripture that we all know we're called to do. And that's why one of the verses that helps guide me is from Matthew 22, and you might know it, because it's the greatest commandment. You know, he says, love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important command. And the second is, like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And so as I'm engaging on socials, I'm often thinking to myself, is this actually helping me, like, know and love God more? And is it helping me love my neighbor? And that's been a really helpful guiding principle. You know, there's so many things I could say, but I think if you're thinking through, yes, all of these biblical principles, but then also, what has God uniquely called me to do? I name my podcast Journey Women because I feel like I'm a journey woman for Jesus. Like, he is sending me out to seek after those who are lost, to bring them back to him. So how do I use social media? Well, I use it like Paul encourages us to do in 2 Corinthians by being an ambassador for Christ. And so if what I'm posting isn't consistent with that calling, then I need to reconsider. And we're each called. Like Laura said, there's different uses for this tool. She's using it to display beauty, truth, and goodness into the world through her poetry and written words. And whatever it is that we do when we're on socials, we ought to be doing it to the glory of God. And you know, there's so many verses that support that. Psalm 115:1. So Scripture really does have a pertinent word to speak to us about socials. And as you're reading through and thinking about application, don't exclude social media from that list of application points, you know, and how it informs the way in which you engage online.

Hunter Biles (26:48)

And I think that's true if you have 10 followers or 10,000 followers. Because what I think is we all have a circle of influence. And when I think a good question for us all to ask is if I have an hour long conversation with someone or they follow me on social media for 10 days, can they find out that I'm about Jesus?

Courtney (27:11)

Yes. Amen.

Hunter Biles (27:13)

Or is it hidden and I'm kind of embarrassed to share that part of myself? Or is it, oh yeah, that girl seems really religious. She's. Whatever it might be. And I, I didn't even mean that in a pejorative way. I mean, but just like, you know, how, how someone maybe who's not a person of faith might look at us and be like, oh, they seem real serious about that Bible thing or whatever. And that's okay. I mean, sometimes I love it because when maybe I have a neighbor who we've just talked about the dogs or whatever and then we find each other on social media, I'm like, well, there it is.

Laura Whiffler (27:48)

I know.

Hunter Biles (27:48)

Yeah, I know.

Courtney (27:49)

It's a good thing. My pastor says that all the time. Whenever somebody asks, well, what do you do? It's like, well, I'm a pastor and it's great accountability. I feel that and I'm so grateful because it does kind of break the ice and get that spiritual conversation going. And in terms of like socials, like if, if we are friends with Jesus and you've talked about this so much, Melissa, then people ought to know, like Jesus is our friend, you know, in the way in which they, when, when they're engaging with our social platform.

Hunter Biles (28:17)

Yeah. And so it really can be a way we engage with others. The verse I have to look at is Ephesians 5. Look carefully than how you walk. Not as unwise but as wise. Making the best use of the time because the days are evil.

Laura Whiffler (28:31)

That's a good one.

Hunter Biles (28:32)

It's the time thing for me. And here's. It's not just the time, it's the delight. Because Psalm 1 is a Psalm of wisdom. Where does wisdom tell me my delight should be in my mind? Should be in the law of the Lord, not sitting the seat of mockers, which is really tempting to do on social media. Sit in the seat of mockers. Why are they doing that? You know, or whatever. Or stand in the way of sinners or what, you know, I mean, it's very tempting. Social media can be that platform. But my delight is to be in the law of the Lord. And I'll be honest, sometimes when I'm sitting there to read my Bible, my. I'm like, oh, I have to read this passage. Then I can look.

Courtney (29:10)

Ah, it's.

Hunter Biles (29:11)

Where's my delight? My delight's in the dessert rather than the meal, you know, or whatever. And, and I think that's where I have to really guard my heart like you all were saying. And look carefully. It's so easy to waste a life. It's so, so easy to waste my life. And I don't know how many days I get. And so it's not about not being on, it's being careful about how I'm using my time.

Courtney (29:39)

There we go.

Hunter Biles (29:39)

And what I'm doing when I'm on there. Thanks friends so much. This conversation has been so helpful so far. I can't wait to continue it.

Laura Whiffler (29:47)

We're going to hear a word really.

Hunter Biles (29:48)

Quickly from our sponsors and then we'll be right back. Welcome back. Okay, I have this question I want to ask you all. Have you ever taken a break from social media? What type of break was it? How do you do that? I don't think I've ever taken a full break from social media.

Courtney (30:07)

I took a six month break. I did. I took a six month break. And you know, Courtney is the co host of this podcast, if this is your first episode. And she is an older woman in my life who I consistently seek counsel from. And she had a lot to say about social media and I listened and she was just saying that there, there aren't a lot of helpful things that she sees about it. And I thought to myself, exactly what you were talking about, Melissa, like, is this the best use of the time the Lord has given me if there's not a lot of helpful things about this space? I've thought about it a lot since then. But I did take a six month break because I felt like I needed time to disassociate with it to the degree that I no longer thought about it, that it was no longer a part of my thought processes that I got to the point where I didn't even realize I was on an Instagram break because. Or a social media break in general because it wasn't a part of my life. And so it was a really refreshing break. But I did miss certain things about it and that was really helpful to be able to discern, like, what is it that I am trying to accomplish on this specific platform. And so I was able to enter back in with a lot more purpose and clarity regarding my use.

Laura Whiffler (31:25)

Well, I haven't taken that long of a break yet, Hunter, but I've taken a three month long one that was like very much, I'm totally off of it, not on my phone. And it started out as just wanting to take about four weeks off and it turned into three months and I loved it. Honestly. I kind of often talk about like being somebody who has a high tolerance for social media, meaning sort of, you know, like anything where you might be a sweet girl or a salty girl, you can ignore the chips, but you have to have the cookie and vice versa. I feel like social media can kind of be that way where some of us are just more able to tolerate time on it. And I feel like that has often been me with someone that has pretty thick skin and things. But I was surprised by how much I did not miss social media. And a few of my friends and I will joke, I think, Hunter, I've joked with you before, is that we will be the remnant that stays on.

Courtney (32:17)

You know, there will always be a.

Laura Whiffler (32:19)

Remnant that the Lord calls to stay on social media. And I think for me, staying on social media is very much a decision of saying, hey, I believe that the gospel can and should go forth on social media and that God uses these things. And so I want to stay here and be a faithful presence and someone that pushes people to the Lord. And obviously it's a big part of my career. And so that's something that I've just had to settle. But I do think if you've never taken a break, it's a really wise thing to try. And I think it can give you a lot of insights into how social media is affecting your life. Because for me, again, I said, oh, I'm a high tolerance person. Like, it's not that it's not affecting me that much. And as I kind of detox from it, right, they say it's 30 days to break a habit. So at least a 30 day break. And it was sort of at that two month mark where I was like, oh, I do have more clarity of mind. Oh, I Am less irritable. Oh, I definitely, you know, I know it's just right. But more time, more time in the day to do other things. Things. So I would recommend it on whoever's the. On the other side listening to this show to just try it for at least 30 days if you never had and write down insights, you know, do kind of a before and after survey. Those are out there. Or ask chat GPT to put one together for you, you know, and do some intakes and then also evaluate on the other side. And I think it can give us a lot of insights. And then it also sets you up really well to set up guardrails for social media as you enter back in. Because it's again, I would have said, well, this isn't affecting me that much, therefore I don't need very many boundaries. And when I took the break and had some clarity of mind, I was more firm about what boundaries I wanted to put in place because I understood the repercussions more and I, I think I had just a better grasp on how it was affecting me. So I think breaks are a great idea. I don't think that you have to take them all the time. But Hunter and I and Melissa, we all have friends that are like, hey, I'm on it every other week. You know, I'm on it. I take a month off every January and June. So kind of thinking through, if you want to be someone that takes breaks, having a plan in place can be really helpful. But also there's no harm in just being like, no, I'm just done, you know, slam your phone down and go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Courtney (34:33)

I do think though, that having a plan is helpful. And Tony Rinke, he's been talking about this stuff for years, decades, you know, and he really, for me, has been such wise counsel when it comes to smartphone use in general. And he encourages taking a two week break every year, one week every month and one day every week. So if you're looking for like a helpful sieve, like, that could be it for starters. And honestly, as I saw this question, Melissa in the lineup, I'm coming off of a marketing season. Courtney and I just published the Titus Bible study. And when you're in a heavy marketing season, you're encouraged to use social media a lot to leverage the space to help people know that the book exists. And I was challenged to really revisit this because also simultaneously, we're about to undergo a remodel. And so I've been doing a similar thing. I've been using social Media as a tool to help me as I'm engaging in that process. Kind of foreign territory for me. And honestly, I have slipped into overuse. And so it's funny, because we have been. Laura and I have been talking about this for so long, like, social media. I'm like, we're still talking about social media because we still haven't figured it out, and we still need to lay our hearts before the Lord and ask him to help us honestly evaluate what's going on inside them. And it may be something that you have to revisit, you know, time and time again, just as I have.

Hunter Biles (35:54)

Do you all have it? I love that plan. Do you have any other guardrails that are heart checks that you check in with yourself about?

Laura Whiffler (36:02)

Like, I love.

Hunter Biles (36:03)

That's a really specific way. I'm like, I'm gonna have to think through that. I'm really bad at this stuff, you guys. Like, I really am. I'm like, oh, I don't know that Mike and I. I mean, this is gonna just lead to people thinking we're terrible people. We've been married 28 years. I'm not sure we've ever sat down and done a budget it. And I mean. And y', all, we have had seasons of no money, but we just don't spend what we don't have, and it's worked. Okay, there you go. So that's, like, very purposeful, and. And you're gonna laugh. I'm very purposeful about reading my Bible every day, and that's kind of where it ends for me.

Laura Whiffler (36:38)

You know, enough.

Hunter Biles (36:39)

That's. But that's so thoughtful and good.

Laura Whiffler (36:42)

Like, are.

Hunter Biles (36:43)

Do y' all have any other guardrails you put up to really help you think through? Ooh, I need to. I need to check this.

Courtney (36:52)

There's so many different things. I mean, for me, I'm seeing overuse. And, you know, our phones tell us that screen time, daily report, and nobody wants to look at that, but, wow, that can expose overuse. That's really helpful. You know what else can expose overuse is the people who are in your everyday life and being humble enough to ask. And I remember. I'm going to cry, but I remember when I was a young mom, and, you know, you use your phone a lot when you are breastfeeding and sitting down and, you know, when the kids are little and you're not having a whole lot of stimulating conversation. And I remember my youngest or my oldest bringing me my cell phone like I was missing an appendage, and it was A huge heart check for me. Like, she thinks of me needing this phone all the time. And so the people that are in our everyday context, like our husband or our kids, having the humility to ask, hey, you know, what do you see mommy love most? Or my husband, hey, do you think I'm overusing my phone? And just receiving that information as an act of care for your soul? It's so hard to ask, but just ask other people. Ask the mentors in your life. The people in my everyday life have been one of the greatest rails that the Lord has provided for me to really see myself honestly in regard to my own social media use.

Hunter Biles (38:18)

That's great, Laura.

Laura Whiffler (38:19)

Those are, those are really great, Hunter. And I would definitely echo those things. And I think something that I often try to check is just I look behaviorally, you know, and how am I feeling when I'm interrupted, for me is probably like one of the biggest tells. If I am more reactive to things or feeling even mentally checked out or mentally fatigued, you know, it's hard because you can justify, well, it's not my phone, it's I didn't sleep last night, or it's, you know, the kids are tough or whatever. Like, you can justify a lot of those things. But I think it's just kind of an easy button to say, well, maybe I need to reduce my phone use. And the science is there. We're not even talking about the science. But this is the thing, is that this isn't just anecdotal for people, which it is, but it's also very science based, that our minds are attuned to these phones and that there are real withdrawal symptoms, there are real, real reactions that are going on in our brain because we are engaging not just with social media, but with the smartphone in general. And so I think that's where it's like, hey, it's worth a shot to take a break if you're feeling particularly moody about things or you are constantly comparing your life to others. You know, taking that step back and just being willing to topple the idol and look at it objectively and you probably won't be able to. And so that's where the community that Hunter was speaking about comes into, where they can hold you accountable. And you say, I want to do this, so don't let me look at my phone when I'm with you, you know, And I think that's something just as a regular rule for my husband and I that we constantly have to re employ, but it's that we don't want to constantly be on our phones, around our kids. And for me, my job requires, you know, being on my phone, being on Instagram. A lot of times I'll try to tell my kids if I am. Mommy's doing work right now. Do you want to see? You know, and, like, just having, like, a lot of openness about it. But for both of us overall, like, our goal is that we are not picking up our phones and carrying them with us everywhere we go when we're at home, but instead that. That we're engaging. But sometimes it takes. I would say there's like, a very real conscious decision and that this isn't just, like, me being like, oh, yeah, it's no big deal. It's no big deal. It's like, oh, no, I don't want to be like this. Put my phone back down, put it on a counter, put it in a drawer, put it upstairs, Whatever you got to do. But these things, it takes real work to be able to control the phone. I think. And I think that we think, I'll take my fast and I'll come back and it'll be fine. Or set these rules. I'll be fine. But it's like anything, you know, you were talking about studying God's word, Melissa. It's every day it's a choice. Every day it's a decision. And this is that decision of not wasting our life. You know, it's. It's. It's a constant battle of saying, this will not rule me. And I don't know, it doesn't get easier. I haven't found some magic trick that makes it easier. It's a. It's a daily choice for us to not have our phones run our lives.

Hunter Biles (41:19)

That's right. And I think sometimes what we don't realize one of the guardrails for me is to look back and think what I would have missed. So when you were sharing that story, Hunter, I realized I didn't have a smartphone because with any of my babies, right? Because I was old. They didn't exist then, you know? And I realized the reason I started gardening was because I was really bored when my kids were outdoors playing. So I'd be sitting in the front yard with them, and I was just bored. Yeah. I mean, because sometimes as they're playing with their little toys, it's not that exciting. No. You know, not reality. And I. If I had had a phone, I would have been playing wordle. I would have been scrolling. I have been doing something, and I didn't have that option. So I started planning things. And so this thing I love so much now I recognize I just would have missed. And that's hard to measure. It's really hard to measure. But I also just want to give encouragement, especially because, Laura, one thing I was thinking about what you were saying, the data out there, especially when it comes to our kids, and we're not going to have time to get into how is this going to affect our kids. But I'll just say I've done a lot of research in that area, and basically every. Every hour your teen is on social media is directly correlated to less happiness.

Laura Whiffler (42:40)

Yeah.

Courtney (42:40)

Wow.

Hunter Biles (42:41)

Yeah. So I have to say, when I cannot get my son to answer me, because my son is the most unattached to his phone of any person I know. In fact, I call him in college and he tells me, finally get him. And I'm like, john, how do your friends find you? He goes, well, they know if they want to find me, they come to my front porch.

Laura Whiffler (43:00)

Porch.

Hunter Biles (43:00)

Because that's where I'm sitting.

Laura Whiffler (43:01)

I love that.

Hunter Biles (43:03)

And so I'm just like, okay. He just chooses to be him. And he's so okay with it.

Laura Whiffler (43:10)

And, you know, but it means right.

Hunter Biles (43:12)

Now he's hiking the Appalachian Trail, and guess who's not turning on his phone, so mom cannot know where he is. But, you know, I realized, like, my parents sent me to Ukraine for two months, and I didn't talk to them the whole summer.

Laura Whiffler (43:24)

Oh, my goodness.

Hunter Biles (43:25)

And it was right after the fall. It was like 95. I mean, it was right after the Chernobyl, all that stuff. And she can call all summer, couldn't call all summer. And I was like, that's how people used to live. And I think. I think it really speaks to. I want to have control. And I want to know not. I want to know what's going on in your backyards. I want to know where my. I want to ping my children and be able to see where they are. And putting our phone down maybe means letting go of control a little bit and. And giving it back to the Lord and say, I'm going to pray for this. So that's the one thing I would say when I used to wait in those lines, I'd be like, what can I pray about?

Courtney (44:05)

Amen.

Hunter Biles (44:05)

And now immediately I'm scrolling. So I think one good maybe heart check is, what am I doing less of? That was a good thing.

Courtney (44:12)

Yes.

Hunter Biles (44:13)

It's not that our phones are bad things. It's just, what might I be missing out on? Because I'm too. I'm spending too much time on my phone. Well, this conversation has been so rich and so good and you women are so thoughtful about this topic. I just want to close. We always ask a final question on the Deep dish and before we wrap up, I want to ask you, who is someone that you follow on social media? Who would you. You would love to meet in real life?

Courtney (44:43)

I actually did. I saw this question and I thought, I need to think about this more. I've had the privilege of meeting a lot of people that I know and have have benefited from following on social media in real life as a result of my occupation. And it's been a real blessing, I think, to see what Laura was talking about. When you are, you know, seeing the fruitfulness in someone else's life at a distance, to see that a lot of times there is consistency in character and that is such an encouragement to me. So, Melissa, I probably would have had you on the list. I probably would have had Courtney on the list. I have had the privilege of meeting you in real life and it has been such an encouragement to see that who you are online is who you really are. And that has been instructive for me personally in my own online engagement. So I praise God that I've had the chance to meet you guys in person and be able to testify to that for your listeners today.

Hunter Biles (45:40)

Okay. I thought you were gonna go like, way. I mean, they're like, you know, I.

Courtney (45:45)

That was off the top.

Hunter Biles (45:46)

I would have said like Queen Elizabeth.

Laura Whiffler (45:49)

Queen Elizabeth not alive anymore. But yeah, I would like, if I was this game dead or alive. Let's do it.

Hunter Biles (45:54)

Okay.

Courtney (45:55)

Okay. Okay. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Hunter Biles (45:58)

Is there anyone more you follow? Do you have.

Laura Whiffler (46:01)

I used to have some of these, like, designers that I thought, oh, I want to meet them. I would tell my husband I would have lunch with them. But I think that that has kind of changed over the years a little bit for me. And I am not trying to give a holier question answer or something, but I would probably pick Johnny Eareckson. Tada. I have not met her in person and had that privilege and. And I just. Everything about her just oozes Jesus from the Internet and every other interaction I've had with her work. And so talk about somebody who uses social media for good, it would be her. So I think that that's who I would pick. But I'm sure there's some celebrity that's just not coming to mind off the top of my head, but I know that there would be many a long list of people that I would want to meet. That would be fun.

Hunter Biles (46:44)

So, yeah, that's good. I can't think of anyone either. I'm going blank.

Laura Whiffler (46:48)

I need to scroll through my feed.

Hunter Biles (46:50)

We're like, who do we want to.

Laura Whiffler (46:51)

But.

Hunter Biles (46:52)

But I did get the chance. And this is a wonderful way social media brings us together. Years ago, I think it was during COVID we did a prayer night for tgc and Johnny was on. Was on there, and I got to pray with her during one of the segments for our prayer time. And it was just this amazing thing that the Internet brought us together to get to pray during this season of COVID And so you're right. I mean, it highlights the wonderful blessing of sometimes we get to meet spiritual heroes in our lives that we never would have because we all live in so many different places and we get to see. We do get to see each other's backyards and things like that, which is just wonderful, actually, sometimes. So thank you guys for this conversation. It's been so great to talk to you both. Thanks to our audience for joining us on the Deep Dish. It's such a privilege to get to talk with you all as we're talking together, so thanks for listening. Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff pitch. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.