The Dish on Gossip

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Deep Dish – "The Dish on Gossip"

Host: Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor
Date: September 4, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of The Deep Dish, Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor dig into the uncomfortable but highly relevant topic of gossip. With their trademark warmth and candor, they explore what gossip really is, why it's so damaging, and how Christians can resist the temptation to engage in it. Drawing deeply from scripture and personal experience, the hosts discuss the spiritual, relational, and personal costs of gossip and offer practical ways to become women who build up rather than tear down.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Gossip

(~02:45 – 05:10)

• Melissa broadens the traditional understanding of gossip, moving beyond simply "saying something bad about someone behind their back."
• Contemporary Definition: “Casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving events not confirmed as being true.”
• Biblical Context: “Idle, harmful talk about others, often involving secrets or rumors… any talk not beneficial or truthful about another person.” – Melissa Krueger [04:23]
• Both hosts agree: Gossip can be even what seems like harmless, idle talk that doesn’t benefit or build up.

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2. Scriptural Warnings and Weight of Words

(06:14 – 12:57)

• Proverbs 11:13 is highlighted: “A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret.” – Courtney Docter [02:09]
• Ephesians 4:29: “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.” – Courtney Docter [05:57]
• Proverbs 16:28: “A dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisperer separates close friends.” – Melissa Krueger [08:07]
• James: The tongue is powerful, a "rudder" or "bit," able to direct the whole course of life. Even teachers must be especially careful (Courtney referencing her Bible study on James) [10:08].
• Romans 1:29 lists gossip alongside major sins like murder and malice—emphasizing its seriousness [10:37].

Memorable Quote:
“God’s words are omnipotent, but our words are potent and that we need to, like, give pause for that.” – Courtney Docter [12:24]

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3. Why Do We Gossip?

(13:36 – 17:08)

• Gossip often creates a false sense of intimacy: “In the moment, it creates a false sense of intimacy between you and the person you’re chatting…It’s such a lie.” – Melissa Krueger [13:36]
• Pride and a desire for power or to appear “in the know” often undergird gossip.
• "Crabs in a bucket": The urge to pull others down when one seems to rise (Courtney’s analogy) [15:03].
• Wanting relational power—“I want to prove relationally I’m closer to you” – Melissa Krueger [16:14]
• Gossip distances us from people and reveals much about the state of our hearts.

Memorable Quote:
“Our desire to gossip, our engagement with gossip is just so much.” – Courtney Docter [17:08]

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4. Recognizing and Re-Directing Gossip

(17:21 – 22:19)

• Warning signs: “Don’t tell anyone, but…” and Christian masking as “Let’s pray for…” can be entry points [18:20].
• Strategies to Intervene:
  • The direct route: “Hey, this conversation is really not going in a direction that I want it to go.” – Melissa Krueger [19:46]
  • Redirect to positives: “Let me think of something positive to say about this person…” – Melissa Krueger [20:00]
  • Set boundaries: “If you’re not supposed to tell me, don’t.” – Courtney Docter [21:14]

Memorable Moment:
Courtney admits: “No surprise that I’m more confrontational than you…I've started to say things like, ‘I don’t want this to slip into gossip.’” [20:37]

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5. Responding After Participating in Gossip

(22:19 – 26:18)

• Confession is often most appropriate before God and with the person you gossiped with.
• Only confess to the person you gossiped about if the information caused direct harm or was severely sensitive.
  • “If you shared information you shouldn’t have shared…then say, ‘I need to confess, I told Courtney about that medical diagnosis, and I’m really sorry.’” – Melissa Krueger [23:47]
• Not all confessions are helpful: “There are confessions that can harm.” – Courtney Docter [22:24]
• Nuance is important—seek God’s wisdom for each situation.

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6. The Damage of Gossip

(27:10 – 32:00)

• Gossip harms relationships; damages trust; causes people to pull away or isolate.
• Leaders are often the subject of more gossip simply by being visible (Melissa’s personal experience as a pastor’s wife) [28:00].
• Gossip “objectifies” people and treats them as topics, not souls.
• “It does affect your confidence and trust in that person.” – Melissa Krueger [30:06]
• Both hosts stress that while all sin is damning, gossip is uniquely damaging to community.

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7. Sin’s Deceptive Appeal and Real Misery

(32:00 – 34:39)

• Sin is often painted as what’s being kept from us, but it is truly corrosive. “Sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin. Not so we feel condemned by it, but so that we hate it and want to spit it out.” – Melissa Krueger [32:46]
• Gossip gives a fake bond; real relationships should be built on stronger foundations, like partnership in the gospel.

Notable Line:
“The strength of the friendship is only as strong as the thing that unites you.” – Courtney Docter [33:41]

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8. Gossip in the Age of Social Media

(34:39 – 37:22)

• Is it still gossip if someone posted their own news? Yes—when shared with negative spin, judgment, or for idle talk.
• “I think the thing about gossip is it objectifies a person.” – Melissa Krueger [35:28]
• The hosts urge listeners to check heart motives and to avoid fuel for idle, harmful conversation even when information is public.
• Philippians 4:8 and Ephesians 4:29 are suggested as benchmarks for our words.

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9. Casting a Vision for Life-Giving Conversation

(37:28 – 41:53)

• “Only have that [speech] be what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen—all those who listen. And that includes you as the speaker.” – Courtney Docter [38:17]
• Melissa and Courtney praise the women they work with at TGC for spiritually rich, edifying conversation. “It’s the women in my life who I know are in the word regularly.” – Melissa Krueger [39:01]
• Output matches input—what we fill our minds with shapes our words.

Touching Example:
Courtney shares her aunt’s words about her mother: “No matter how hard I’ve tried through the years… I cannot make her speak badly about others.” [41:24]
A life goal worth emulating.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “God’s words are omnipotent, but our words are potent and that we need to, like, give pause for that.” – Courtney Docter [12:24]
• “Sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin. Not so we feel condemned by it, but so that we hate it and want to spit it out.” – Melissa Krueger [32:46]
• “The strength of the friendship is only as strong as the thing that unites you.” – Courtney Docter [33:41]
• “No matter how hard I’ve tried… I cannot make her speak badly about others.” – Courtney Docter’s Aunt about her mother [41:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining Gossip & Scriptural Foundations: 02:00 – 13:00
• Why We Gossip & Its Damaging Effects: 13:00 – 17:30
• Recognizing and Stopping Gossip: 17:30 – 22:30
• Confession & Repair: 22:30 – 26:30
• Personal Stories of Gossip’s Damage: 27:00 – 32:00
• Sin’s Deceptive Appeal: 32:00 – 34:30
• Social Media & Gossip: 34:30 – 38:00
• Life-Giving Friendships and Examples: 38:00 – 41:53

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Conclusion

Melissa and Courtney invite listeners to take a sober look at gossip, acknowledge its real consequences, and actively choose speech that is life-giving, trustworthy, and gospel-centered. They model both practical wisdom and gracious vulnerability, pointing toward sanctification as a loving, ongoing process. Their prayer is that, as Christian women, listeners would be known for discretion, encouragement, and the kind of trustworthiness that builds true, lasting friendships.

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Call to Action:
Consider what bonds your own friendships—and be the friend “who cannot be made to speak ill of others.”
Reflect: What story will your words tell about your heart?

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Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Melissa Krueger]

But I think sin gets painted. And again, we were talking about this a little bit earlier as the thing we're being kept from.

[Courtney Docter]

That's what Satan did.

[Melissa Krueger]

He painted it as the one thing you can't have. That would be so fun. Wouldn't it be so fun to just chit chat with Courtney about this? You know, like, I can just. And, oh, it's going to keep us from fun. And I just think sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin. Not so that we feel condemned by it, so that we hate it and want to spit it out.

[Courtney Docter]

Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Docter, and I'm here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger. And today it just hurts to even say it. Today we are going to talk about gossip. And, you know, let me just start by saying it's. It's hard, right? It's hard not to gossip. I think for all of us, it's. It's easy to mask something as concern. And, you know, let's be honest, we kind of like talking about others and we're going to talk more about that. So what I want to do is start by getting a definition, Melissa, of gossip. But before you do that, I was gonna share with you. You know, have you ever heard of your, like, birthday verse or your golden verse or whatever it is, or you look up in Proverbs. Well, mine, Proverbs 11:13, because I'm November 13th.

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay.

[Courtney Docter]

So years ago, I got so excited, somebody said, yeah, you have like a, you know, birthday verse or whatever it's called. And so I ran to look it up, and this is what it says in the niv, which is what I was reading when I was told to look this up. Proverbs 11:13 says a gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy Person keeps a secret. And so here I am, a new believer in my 20s, and I just was like, Lord. So even early on in my Christian walk, the Lord was like, girl, don't do it. Don't do it. So what is it we are trying not to do? How would you define gossip?

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay, I'm totally sidetracked. I've never heard about the proverbs with the birthday thing.

[Courtney Docter]

Okay, let's confirm. For anybody who has listened to all of our podcasts, back me up on this. I mentioned it on another. On another Deep Dish podcast. Okay, put that in the comments. Please back me up. I am pretty sure I talked about, like, our birthday proverb in another. In another Deep Dish.

[Melissa Krueger]

I probably just was like, oh, pretending like I knew what that was and had no idea what that was. I'm like, that's really fun. Now I'm like, totally intrigued to go see what Proverbs 3. 23 is. It's probably like something about, like, murdered angry person.

[Courtney Docter]

I'm look it up. While you define gossip, don't even think that I won't. It'll probably be something about, like, the righteous woman this or that.

[Melissa Krueger]

I'm scared to know what it is.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, I'm going to tell you, but it's so funny.

[Melissa Krueger]

Even when you started with the phrase we're going to talk today about gossip, it feels like we're gossiping about gossip. I mean, I'm so, like, like, okay, because this is such a tough topic. And I would say, even for me. What I've thought about defining this in the past. I've had a lot of, like, Melissa definitions of gossip, you know, so one of those would have been saying something bad about someone behind their back, which I think that's what we often think of. But I've realized it's much more expansive than just saying something bad about someone behind their back. And so I actually looked up some definitions. So we'll throw these out. These are, you know, Websters or whatever, Google whatever, you know, but hopefully they'll help us get us started. And I thought these were really interesting. This is one definition, casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving events that are not confirmed as being true. So they're just not confirmed as being true. So that's something. And then in the biblical context, gossip is broadly understood as idle, harmful talk about others, often involving secrets or rumors. It can range from spreading rumors and secrets to casting doubts upon a person's character or actions. Essentially, it is any talk that is not beneficial or truthful about another person. Let's just stop talking now.

[Courtney Docter]

Right? That's. So I like the idol piece of that. Like, that's. And I have shared this on another episode that we had.

[Melissa Krueger]

Do you remember this one?

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Okay. That there is that little. Little piece of paper, you know, growing up on our phone desk that said little people talk about other people. And then it went on to say average people talk about things, and great people talk about ideas. And we've already discussed the merits and, you know, the pros and cons of that statement, but the reality is, it stuck with me. Little people talk about people. So I'm seeing this theme in my life all of a sudden that I hadn't seen before. So I grow up with this thing on the phone desk in front of me. Little people talk about other people. Then the. My birthday proverb is about gossiping. And then do you know what the very first verse that I memorized out of all of scripture was? Ephesians 4:29.

[Melissa Krueger]

I was wondering. That's.

[Courtney Docter]

Just. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit all who listen. Now, I think we need to unpack that. But that idol talk, that's what. When you. When you mentioned that in this definition, I was like, oh, that.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's.

[Courtney Docter]

It's idle to just not to not have it be beneficial to not have the words that we speak benefit not just those that we're speaking to, but to benefit anybody else who's listening to. Honestly, how does it benefit ourselves? And so anyway. Oh, I'm. I'm now really excited to talk about this. And maybe it's. Maybe this is the place the Lord's been bringing me all these years to really dig deep into. Into gossip. But let's start with what. What do the Scriptures say besides Ephesians 4:29?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, Ephesians 4:29 is so good. I mean, I remember we used to say that to each other. It was like, Ephesians 4. 2, 9. It was kind of like the way you stopped gossip. I mean, you know, it was high school. You could do that kind of thing or whatever. We'd be like, Ephesians 4. 29. Not gonna say anything.

[Courtney Docter]

I was not telling people Ephesians 4:29 in high school, just everybody out there.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, we have an interesting friend group. But anyway. But I think there are some really good verses. One that just comes to mind that we. I didn't even write down the verse reference is when words are many, sin is not absent. And so I think there is just a reality. We live in a words culture right now. I mean, we have so many ways to express ourselves. Thanks, Instagram, thanks, Facebook, thanks, Twitter. I mean, you know, before, I might be able to just tell you something, but now words are very many, and sin is not absent. And probably one of those sins is going to be gossip. That's probably the easiest of the bunch. We might get to slander, we might get to lying, but gossip's probably right up there. But another one's. And this one's really painful. This is Proverbs 16:28. A dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisperer separates close friends. You know, it's like you start to see the effects.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Of a whisperer.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like, yeah, just, like, lean in close, listen to what I have to say.

[Courtney Docter]

Whisper. You need to ask yourself, why, like, who do you not want to hear?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, that's right. Whispers should be about good surprises. Let's just say that.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Like we have a joke in our family. One of my daughters, friends, mothers, would say, I probably shouldn't even share this. It's so. It's not. Here we go, here we go, here we go. Unhinged. It's theologically not sound, so just let me. But she would say, a whisper is a lie, and a lie is a sin. Can't even say it. And when you get to heaven, you won't get in.

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay, okay.

[Courtney Docter]

So we might cut that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, we might cut that. Yeah, yeah. Because theologically we don't align, but it's good to think about what you're whispering about.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's like when I have to lower my voice, should I be saying what I. What I'm saying? You know, unless you're a mother disciplining. Because, you know, when I was disciplining, when I got real quiet, the children knew it was bad. They're like, that's your scary voice, Mom. It's not loud. It's real, real quiet. Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, what about you?

[Melissa Krueger]

Like, what verses come to mind when you think about gossip specifically?

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Besides the Ephesians verse and a ton of verses in Proverbs and a ton of verses in James. Right. I mean, they're just like. Like the tongue is just full of all this. I think about that verse in James, actually, all the time, where it's like, you know, you both. These two types of water, fresh water and salty water should not come from the same spring. And I think, you know, especially as A Bible teacher. Like, I want my words to be life giving. I want them. I want. I want to be speaking the word of God. And then how often is the same spring, my mouth being used for two different purposes? So that's a really convicting one.

[Melissa Krueger]

I remember in James because you wrote the Bible study steadfast on it, and you had the drawing of the rudder and the bitten bridle, you know, and it was that powerful. Like, the rudder is so small, but it directs the whole ship.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And it was such a. The visual image of it made me stop and pause and be like, oh, a very little thing.

[Courtney Docter]

A very little thing.

[Melissa Krueger]

Really powerful.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

James is so good.

[Courtney Docter]

I had my dinner. Draw those. Draw this for us. Because the bit again in the horse's mouth, it's so small compared to the horse. And I remember reading one time that our tongue is like three and a half inches, eight ounces. I don't know, it's like. It's this little, you know, slab of. Whatever it's made out of. It's a muscle, but it's. We don't know. It's. Yeah. Anyway, it's just this nasty little thing, but it's so little, but it can just do so much harm. And so also in Romans, you know, the first three and a half, two and a half chapters in Romans are just all about this idea that the wrath of God is being revealed against the wickedness in the world. And guess what's listed there in the first chapter of Romans? Romans 1:29. It says they were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips. I'm just like, what? Murderers? Evil, unrighteous and gossiping. Like, it's a. It's a. It's a serious thing to stop and ponder.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

The weight of our words and to kind of accumulate these passages together about what the Lord thinks.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. Because we just think it's not that big of a deal.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

You know, and I'm putting this together. I mean, sometimes it's. It's like, oh, yeah. How did the whole world fall on a lie?

[Courtney Docter]

On a lie.

[Melissa Krueger]

How did the whole world start on a speech?

[Courtney Docter]

God spoke with a word. Yeah, yeah. I've heard it said before that, you know, God's words are omnipotent, but our words are potent and that we need to, like, give pause for that. And so, yeah, our words can be right. God's words spoke everything into existence. It's the it's the ultimate life giving. He created life by his Word and so our words can be life giving. We should have a whole episode on that. On what? Life giving words.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love that verse. Reckless words pierce like a sword, but that the tongue of the wise brings healing. It's that exact picture. Our words can bring healing or they can be like sword thrust.

[Courtney Docter]

Right. So why is it so damaging? Because I think we tend to just. It's just such an excusable sin. Right. So clearly it's a sin. So gossiping is a sin. I mean, scripture is very, very clear about that. But, but why, like why is it so damaging and why are we so quick to be like, oh, you know what I mean? Yeah, I can't, I can't help it, you know, I mean, we don't say that about murder. We don't say that about adultery. I can't help it, you know?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. I think in the moment, and we've talked about this some before, I think in the moment it creates a false sense of. Sense of intimacy between you and the person who are chatting. It's such a lie. And it's such a lie. It's just like Satan in the garden saying, if you eat, then you will. Then you will know, you will understand, you'll be like God, you know, in some sense. And I think there's this false sense of we're better, we're. I mean, the hardest pride.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like to talk about someone else because you're. You're normally using it to say why they're not so great, you know. And I can remember, I mean, I've been in circles.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

You're standing around talking about someone and let's say someone's talking positively about someone.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

That talk. Or she let that Bible study. So. Well, and then I've watched.

[Courtney Docter]

Yep.

[Melissa Krueger]

Someone come in and just. Well, I mean, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't. Her husband's home every day at 4:00'.

[Courtney Docter]

Clock. Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

So she has plenty of time. Yeah, it's so. So that might be true.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Her husband might be. But it's just I'm gonna somehow take her character or. And make her seem a little lesser.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Have you ever heard that analogy about the crabs in a bucket?

[Melissa Krueger]

That probably, but I've forgotten. So let's tell me again.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah, I told you this yesterday. But no, I'm just kidding. Where if you have a whole bunch of crabs in a bucket. I don't know if this is true or not, but if you have a whole bunch of Crabs in a bucket. And one of them starts to crawl out, the others will actually reach up and grab it and pull it back down. And it's such an image of how we can be. Like you were saying with our words, like, why do we want to do that? Why do we want to take away a positive from somebody or promote the negative either to them or to someone else, which is what we're talking about in this episode. And I think you're right. I think we just. We love to be people that are in the know. Like, have you ever. I mean, I've seen it in myself. Even if it's bad news, I, like, be the one to share it. Right. Like, what is that? I hate that. I don't. I know. Why would I want to spread sad or bad news? Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

But I think when it does relate positionally, it says, oh, I know what's going on.

[Courtney Docter]

It's power. Knowledge is power.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, yeah. And it's even relational power.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

So let's say you're going through something and. And people are rightly chitter, chattering about it, you know, because they care about you. So there's a rightness that we say, oh, did you hear about this? I'm so sorry that that's going on. And then I step in because I want to prove relationally I'm closer to you.

[Courtney Docter]

That is so true. It's. It's like, I know more about this because I know her better than you. It's like a power play.

[Melissa Krueger]

Relations.

[Courtney Docter]

Oh, this. This does not make us as humans as, as, you know, people look very good. Does it? It also distances us when we're talking about somebody else. It distances us from them. You know, like you were saying, you're. You're alluding to that, like, this idea that, you know, what they struggle with. Well, that I just want. I want the person I'm in the conversation with to know that I'm not like that. I'm. I'm better than that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

There's just so much going on in our hearts, isn't there, at the moment, that we're. That we're engaging in gossip. Our desire to gossip, our engagement with gossip is just so much.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. So let me ask you this question. We've all been in scenarios, you know, where you're sitting around and a conversation is turning to gossip. Like, slowly it's just getting there. It's kind of building. Well, I heard. Oh, no, no, no.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Or whatever. I heard. No, I heard their marriage is really struggling or some. I don't Know, whatever it might take. Do you have any, like, ways to. How do you, how do you, how can we be hopeful in a conversation to turn it from gossip? Gossip?

[Courtney Docter]

Well, I think first recognizing, like, what are some things that Tim. What are some things that are like, phrases or what kind of happens prior so that you can be like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna look so that I'm ready to respond. And so, you know, the latest is, you know, I'm gonna spill the tea. Like, oh, give me the tea. Right?

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, my goodness. And I say this to my daughter, right? I want to know the high school tea. I'm probably not helping her.

[Courtney Docter]

Oh, yeah. All the time. Right? I mean, we want to know or the one that gets me. And I'm, I've said it a million times, and I, it's the worst thing I think we can say is don't tell anyone, but because the reality is someone told me and probably started with that phrase, don't tell anyone. Well, I just, you know, like, I'm just gonna run to Melissa and tell her because, you know, I want to tell you, but then I tell you, then I put the, then I put the burden of confidentiality on you, and it was a burden that I couldn't keep. Right. I can't keep it. I was not supposed to tell anyone, but. And then I can't do it. So then I put it on, on someone else, and I'm asking them to bear a weight that I couldn't bear. Obviously, in Christian circles, it's, you know, we need to pray for. I mean, we need to, you know, and we do need to pray for, but, but do we need to go into the details and the specifics that are not ours to share? No, we don't. So if you see someone heading in that direction, what are some ways to shut it down? Like, how can we better press into, not be. So we don't want to gossip ourselves, but we also don't want to be a participant in listening to a bystander in that. So how do you, how do you shut it down?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, I think it's tough. I mean, you know, there's the direct route. But to say, hey, this conversation is really not going in a direction that I want it to go. I will admit I don't usually pick that one. I, I, I appreciate when people do, though. I, I actually really do. I don't mind it. I think it's a good check and it reminds everyone. I tend to go the, Let me think of something positive to say. About this person or an understanding route to the. About the person. So I might say, well, you know, I know her husband does whatever, you know, work, get off at 4. But I know that she works really hard at this. And I'm so like, try to bring it back around to the positive because it can just stop the trend, whatever it might be.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

I don't know. Do you have any good?

[Courtney Docter]

Well, no surprise that I'm more confrontational than you. That isn't a surprise to anybody listening. I don't think if you know us at all all. But I have started. I'm not, I'm not as consistent as I would like to be in that. But, but started to say things like, you know, I don't want this to slip into gossip. And so that kind of means, you know, and I'll say I don't want this to slip into gossip. So I'll just ask her about it, you know, and try to just put it in that. Or if somebody says, you know, okay, don't tell anyone, but. And I'll say, you know what, if you're not supposed to tell me, don't. Um, just.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's good.

[Courtney Docter]

Trying to, trying to just say this. I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. But, but we all do and this is what we keep coming back to. So if you come away from a conversation and you realize that either you've been gossiping or you've been listening to gossip, what do we do? What's the appropriate response of repentance and of sanctification in a way that's not legalistic, that's not socially weird, that doesn't have to be, you know, and that isn't overly dramatic. Like I had somebody come to me one time and they took me to lunch and they confessed to me that they had been really bitter towards me. Well, you know what, I didn't actually need to know that. Like that is different than gossip because they could have just taken that to the Lord and just dealt with it, you know, but then now I have this 20 year knowledge that this person was really bitter. So we don't have to be weird about it. Right. So what is a.

[Melissa Krueger]

Or do more harm with our confession? Yes, because there are confessions that can harm.

[Courtney Docter]

There are confessions that can harm. I wasn't the person she needed to confess to, but gossip is a personal offense and so.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly.

[Courtney Docter]

So what do you recommend?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, I think, I think it's definitely before the Lord and normally he's going to put it on your heart, you know, if you say, lord, is there anything I need to be convicted of? And it just keeps nagging at you. I think definitely the person you gossiped with, if you can go back to them and say, hey, when I said that about Sue, I really shouldn't have. It was inappropriate. My words weren't kind, and I'm really sorry I did that. It wasn't helpful to do, and we've done that.

[Courtney Docter]

I mean, you and I have. Have definitely done that. When it's like we're just convicted. Like, okay, that. That conversation just slid into a place that it shouldn't have.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly. Exactly. And so. And in most of those scenarios, I don't normally think it's even helpful to go to the person unless it's something that it was maybe public.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

In a way that deserves a. Like, that they know about it. But if they don't know about it, the reality is that could do more harm. You know, like, hey, I was talking about how ugly your dress was. I mean, I don't know. You know, that might just not be helpful in the moment. So it might depend upon what it is. If you shared information you shouldn't have shared, like, let's say it's really sensitive, like, okay, you know, your husband is dealing with a disease. And I told. I might then say, hey, I need to confess. I told Courtney about that medical diagnosis, and I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have done it. It was wrong. I want you to know how far it went, and that's where it went, and I'm really sorry. That feels, you know. So it probably is situational about when it's appropriate to confess to the person you were gossiping. What do you think about that?

[Courtney Docter]

I totally agree with you. I think the. Of what you shared that was not yours to share. It matters. You're right. If you said something like, you know, have you seen that new haircut? Like, that's kind of ridiculous that you probably don't need to go tell the person that you.

[Melissa Krueger]

Not helpful.

[Courtney Docter]

Right. But you're right, if it's like you. You had shared something with me in confidence that was not mine to share. And so maybe that's even it. One of them. It wasn't something that had been. You were just talking bad about the person versus sharing something that they had told you. So maybe there's a little bit of a difference there. If you're actually passing information on from the person, and then when you pass it on, it's about the person, does that make sense?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Then maybe that is so. Again, it's not legalistic, but it is nuanced. And it is always worth taking to the Lord and asking him to show you what to do about it. And so to first confess to him.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's right.

[Courtney Docter]

You confess to the person to whom you were speaking and then pray about whether or not you need to confess to the person about whom. About whom you are speaking.

[Melissa Krueger]

And I think something about the level of damage could matter too. Like if something you said is going to cause further damage, especially if the person doesn't know it was said. Like, yeah, you just really have to be careful. And I think this is so important for us to remember about all of sin. I think sometimes we think sin is just the fun stuff and the Bible's keeping us from it. No, sin is a pit, can I say, from the bottom of hell. Yeah. Like, that is corrosive to our soul. Maybe that was too strong. Maybe I need to, like, say something different. But it's all bad, you know, so.

[Courtney Docter]

And it's damaging. I've said it before. Like, sin is. All sin is equally damning in that it deserves the wrath of God. But not all sin is equally damaging to others. And so our sin damages other people. Like, we go through life as both sin sinners and people who have been sinned against, people who suffer and who have caused the suffering of others. And so our sin is we've been damaged by people sinning against us, and we damage people by sinning against them. And gossip is a very common way. And I think we tend to think, oh, it's just gossip. But no, it is. It is damaging. So can you talk about a time that you have felt the weight or the repercussions or the damage of gossip?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. I mean, I think we've all maybe sensed it. Have you ever walked in a room, you're like, huh, they stopped talking. Yeah, that's awkward. And you're just like, what? What was that about? I sometimes rely on my mom at that point when she was like, people generally aren't really thinking about you as much as you're thinking about yourself. So that's always a good rule. It may have been. They were totally talking about something different, but we all have that feeling. But I definitely had some. I've had some situations in our life because of, you know. And you're in this situation, too. When you're married to a pastor, sometimes your life gets talked about more. There's just a public nature. And I think we have to be careful about this I want you. Yeah. Even listeners, as you think about people in your life who are leaders around you, sometimes they do just get talked about more, whether it's the assistant pastor of your church, where his kids go to school or whatever, where they went out to dinner. Can you believe?

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Wow.

[Melissa Krueger]

We must be paying.

[Courtney Docter]

Maybe we're paying them too much. Yeah, exactly. What in the world? Like, oh, my word.

[Melissa Krueger]

They can take that vacation. That's nice. I mean. Yeah, like, just these ways, but they're really painful because in that moment, what would it be great for that pastor or someone to hear? I'm so glad you all get to take this vacation. I know your family needs it. Like, rather than a biting, like, isn't that nice? They get to do that. So that can be gossip, too. Like, you know, just the way we're positioning something. And so I have. I have felt the sting of it when I realized, you know, I told something to person A, and now I'm talking to person E, and I'm like, there's. I told one person this, and now person E is repeating back to me this very thing that there's no way it wasn't heard. So I just knew it was talked about. And it was really painful because. And it immediately made me think, I can't trust this person. And so then it's really tempting when you've been hurt in that way, to become really isolationist.

[Courtney Docter]

Stick.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like, I'm just. Yep, I got a journal. I'm gonna talk to Jesus.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And that's not healthy either. So when we've been wronged by it, the answer isn't to isolate and go into ourselves. It's, you know, to realize, okay, this was a wrong done. I need to forgive the person, maybe confront the person. Like, hey, you were the only person I told this.

[Courtney Docter]

And it. It.

[Melissa Krueger]

I. I feel like it got discussed, and I've done that. I have done that.

[Courtney Docter]

And it's.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's painful to do, but it's just so. So even in that scenario, it wasn't some deep, dark secret that was being shared. It was just the notion of. I really asked you not to say anything about this. And it's. It just hurts, you know, and it.

[Courtney Docter]

Does affect your, like, confidence and trust in that person. In the same way, I don't think we really talked about this, but in the same way that when somebody gossips to me, I think, ooh, that is, like, if they're kind of characterized by gossiping, I'm like, you kind of just know, like, this is not a Person that can hold a confidence. And I think one of our hopes in this episode is to cast a vision for the beauty of being women that are. That use our words as life givers, not just to others, but about others. And as women who are increasingly women who can hold a proper confidence for each other and, you know, navigating our own hearts in this, that we don't. That we don't want to be the one that pulls someone else down, that we kind of start recognizing the things in our own heart that cause us to gossip. But that is. That is really painful. You know, I think I've probably been on that end, but also on the other end where I've been caught in a gossip, where I've been the one who, you know, somebody comes and says, you were the one I told, and it's now at person e and it's like, oh, you know, it's just. Because it does alter that relationship. It alters that friendship when. When a trust has been lost and. Yeah. How do we. How do we press into this? I think, you know, when we first talked about doing this episode, I was kind of like, oh, you know, we all, like, everybody knows it's wrong. And yet I think what we don't do often enough is stop and think about the damage that it causes to everybody involved, including ourselves and our own, because we're not pursuing our own sanctification, then if we're not paying attention to, you know, what's going on in our hearts and can.

[Melissa Krueger]

We can kind of pause on that really quickly because I think we maybe don't talk about the ugliness of sin enough. And what I mean by that is not to condemn the sinner. We're all that person.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

But I think sin gets painted. And again, we were talking about this a little bit earlier as the thing we're being kept from. That's what Satan did. He painted it as the one thing you can't have. That would be so fun. Wouldn't it be so fun to just chit chat with Courtney about this? You know, like, I can just, oh, it's going to keep us from fun. And I just think sometimes we need to take a really hard look at the ugliness and misery of sin. Not so that we feel condemned by it, so that we hate it and want to spit it out.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

As the most unsavory thing, you know, and that we just pause on it and say, this sin is yucky and ugly and we feel terrible. It's like eating that thing you knew you shouldn't eat, and then you feel cruddy. Yeah, it's. It's that. It's. It feels sweet to the tongue and it makes the stomach sour. And I think just sometimes we need to sit in its ugliness and how it can ruin a friendship.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, ruin a friendship. But even as you were talking and you were saying like, oh, I just really want to tell, you know, Melissa that one thing, and we alluded to this earlier about the bond that occurs when you, you know, because you're saying, like, hey, you and I, we can talk about this. And it. It gives this. It's a fake bond. And the strength of the friendship is only as strong as the thing that unites you. And you and I have talked about this.

[Melissa Krueger]

Ooh, that's good.

[Courtney Docter]

Right? And so if what unites us is sitting around gossiping about people, or what unites you and another friend is your love of tennis, great. Like, that's. There are different things that bond us with people, but the strength of that thing is going to determine the strength of your friendship. So if it is partnership in the gospel, if it is pursuing Christ, like, that is a. That is a friendship that is going to go the distance. That is a friendship that is worth pursuing. And so even paying attention to what is it that bonds me with this person, If I am characterized in my. In this particular relationship, am I characterized by just sitting around gossiping about people? Like, is that the thing that unites us? And we all know friendships, that. That is what unites you.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

There is just such a better way to have such a stronger, deeper, more true friendships. True friendships to be had.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, let me ask you this question about that, because this is what I see happening now. When someone shares something on social media, okay. They actually shared it. It's like they're gossiping about themselves. But then I've also heard. Can you believe she shared that?

[Courtney Docter]

Oh, yeah, we gossip about their gossip. Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like, I mean, that's a lot to put out there. I mean, you know, like, I said it.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, I'm the one you're referring to. You're like, no, I wasn't actually.

[Melissa Krueger]

I was certainly not referring. Right. But like, I'm just like, oh, so how. How do we interact with social media? Because at that point, in some ways, it is weirdly public. This person told everyone.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

And even maybe celebrity gossip, I mean, that's like a whole, like, just thing we're allowed to talk about. But I think the thing about gossip is it Objectifies a person.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. I'm going back to your definition and you said in a biblical context, gossip is broadly understood as idle, harmful talk about others. And so we're taking their own self report, but we're flipping it into a negative, into we're putting our opinion on it. We're putting our, you know, we are sitting in judgment of them and in whatever it was they shared about themselves. And so then, you know, James talks about this too, like, don't make yourself as judge. And so, you know, I think that that's part of it is then we are then trying to both spread that fact beyond what you know. I mean, maybe you don't follow that person, maybe you didn't know it. But I think it's the whole like, what is, what is our desire in doing it? What is our motive? What are we trying to accomplish? And so somebody could share. I mean, you could call me and say, I saw on social media that so, and so is, you know, got a promotion or has a new book contract or is having a baby or whatever it is.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

That's not gossip. That's like you're, you're sharing the, the beauty of something with me. But if you were to call and say, you know, I just read on social media that she is getting a divorce and you know what, I'm not surprised because, you know, so I think we just again have to pay attention to both the content of the conversation, but also our heart in it. So yeah, I think. And we can hide behind. Well, she posted it. It's public. You know, how is that gossip if she's posted it? Well, I think it can totally be gossip. When we go back to your definition, that word idol just really gets me.

[Melissa Krueger]

It is, it's just like, why are we filling our minds with this stuff?

[Courtney Docter]

Right. Why are we filling our days with this?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. I mean, and the scriptures do tell us what, you know, whatever's lovely, whatever's praiseworthy, if anything is excellent or trustworthy. Think about things.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. And talk about these things. It's how you become a gospel centered friend is you say things in the context of a conversation that point people to the gospel, that, you know, encourage sanctification, that encourage edification. You know, just even back to that Ephesians verse, only say only the talk that comes out of your mouth. Only have that be what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen, all those who listen. So there. And that includes you as the speaker. Like, is this wholesome? Is this Edifying. Is this encouraging? Is this beneficial? I mean, it just kind of dovetails with the verse in 2nd Timothy. Where is. Whereas if anything is excellent or praiseworthy.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. No idea where it is.

[Courtney Docter]

Second Timothy.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's in there.

[Courtney Docter]

We'll drop that one.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's in there. Laughs we'll find it.

[Courtney Docter]

Sometimes our brains are tired.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, I can't remember stories you've told me. Are you kidding?

[Courtney Docter]

You're really that.

[Melissa Krueger]

No.

[Courtney Docter]

You are the Bible memory verse queen. Those out so well.

[Melissa Krueger]

Terrible.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, okay, well, let's end on a positive note with a question. Who in your life has been a good example of someone who won't engage in gossip?

[Melissa Krueger]

This is a great question. And you know, I realized I love these conversations because I'm actually learning myself while we're having them. We always want to probably explain that I'm working some things out. And what I realize as we're talking about this, it's the women in my life who I know are in the word regularly. Because here's the thing, you can't put off sin until you're putting on something else. There's all. All through scripture. Put off, put on, put off, put on. And so we're never going to overflow with that. Those good things if we're not. Yeah. Putting off the gossip, but putting on God's word. And, and so when I think about women in my life who I'm like, ooh, we just always have rich conversations. And I want to honestly say it's a lot of the women we work here with at tgc.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, like our conversations. And I mean this, they are filled with, yeah, maybe what's going on with people's lives. But prayerfully meaning their own life, like they're going to share. Oh, this hard thing happened. But often it's. I saw this in scripture this morning and this is amazing. You know, this is what I'm thinking through. Or this hit me. I'm so thankful to work with women who are putting on.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Scripture and put. And memorizing it. We have some friends who memorize whole passages and all these long, long things. And I can tell, I know it comes out because they're thinking about different things and they're talking about different things. So that mindless scrolling we're doing or whatever. It's not mindless. No, it's actually an input.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And that's going to be your output.

[Courtney Docter]

So good.

[Melissa Krueger]

And so that for that. Those are the women for me. I don't know if you have anyone specific you might Have a.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, I was just thinking about it because this weekend, this past weekend, we were celebrating my mom's 80th birthday and we were all saying different things about her. I wrote her a letter and we were giving some toasts and my aunt, her little sister stood up and she said, no matter. She said, no matter how hard I've tried through the years, kind of tongue in cheek, she's like, and I've tried. I cannot make her speak badly about others. And I thought, wow. I mean, what a thing to say about someone else in their 80th year. That I have known her for 77 years.

[Melissa Krueger]

And believe me, when you can tell your stuff to. It's your sister.

[Courtney Docter]

Right, Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like that feels like.

[Courtney Docter]

And my aunt. And if you're listening, you know this is true. She wouldn't hold back. Like, she would not say that if that was not true. And I'm sure she has tried.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Because we all do. But I mean, I thought what a thing to say, say about someone else. Wow. Right?

[Melissa Krueger]

Wow.

[Courtney Docter]

May that be said of all of no matter how hard someone tried to make us say something bad about somebody.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's beautiful.

[Courtney Docter]

Right? I thought so too.

[Melissa Krueger]

Wow.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, I am grateful for this conversation, even though talking about gossip is always convicting. So let me end by asking, what is your favorite thing other than Jesus? We all know. So you can't say Jesus. You can't say the Bible, you can't say your faith. What is your favorite thing for you to talk about?

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, you know so well. Food. I want to talk about pizza. I want to talk about the cobbler. I want to talk about the food I'm growing. I want to talk about the food I'm eating. I want to talk about the food I'm cooking. I want to talk about the food. I want to. Have you ever to cook for you about. I mean, food.

[Courtney Docter]

She is speaking the truth. I have been working on this menu for a gathering. And I was like, hey, do you want to just talk to through the food with me? Because I knew she would like it. Okay, before we end, I want to tell you all Melissa's golden birthday verse. It's. Of course. It's exactly what it is. So it's in Proverbs 3. And he's. And the writer is saying, maintain sound wisdom and discretion, my son. Don't lose sight of them. They will be life for you and adornment for your neck. And then here's Melissa's verse. Then you will go safely on your way. Your foot will not stumble so as somebody who maintains sound wisdom and discretion, that is beautiful. Beautiful. Tell us in the comments what your birthday problems are to see some of you and let me know. Yours is about gossip. I just need some friends out there we hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, please like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and consider sharing it with a friend as you pursue gospel conversations.

[Melissa Krueger]

Hey friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.