Ann Wilson (3:18)

You just looked it up. We've done over 2,000 interviews.

Melissa Krueger (3:22)

I mean, 2,000.

Ann Wilson (3:24)

Isn't that crazy?

Melissa Krueger (3:25)

So what a joy to get to have you here today. I mean, that's pretty amazing. 2000.

Ann Wilson (3:30)

I love you. You are so fun to talk to. I could say all those things back to you. You're incredibly wise, insightful, biblical fun. So I'm really excited to be with you today.

Melissa Krueger (3:43)

Well, this is such a treat, and we're gonna be talking today about a topic that I'm so excited to talk with you about in particular, because you've just written a book on this topic. Did you write it with your. With Dave, or is it just from you, Dave?

Ann Wilson (3:56)

At the end of each chapter, Dave has, like, a couple pages of a husband's insights. They're so good. I feel like if guys would read what Dave wrote or if a wife would read it, it just gives you a guy's perspective into mar. And I think that's kind of helpful sometimes.

Melissa Krueger (4:14)

So it really is both of you speaking in. What a great thing to get to have. So tell me the name of the book again.

Ann Wilson (4:21)

Okay, I have a copy. How to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. It's kind of a memoir, which is embarrassing, actually.

Melissa Krueger (4:33)

Who would ever want to yell at your husband? And I don't even know what you're talking about. No, clearly we're gonna have a real conversation today. I'm so glad. And we know that some of our listeners aren't married, but I still think this is such a good conversation because marriage is really all about relationship and all about living beside another. So whether you're married or not, I think this is a great conversation to have, just to learn how do we live as friends with other people, roommates with other people, co workers with other people. And obviously the. The most intimate of those relationships is gonna be our spous. So I'm really excited about this conversation and just thinking through how can we Love one another better as we are married or in any relationship in our life.

Ann Wilson (5:22)

And I've done this too, Melissa, with some, like, with the groups of women and singles are in the room. And a lot of it just has to do with learning to speak life and even over kind of taken an analysis of the. What you're speaking in your own mind about yourself. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you speak life or death words to yourself and to others? Because it starts right here.

Melissa Krueger (5:46)

Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Okay, I can't wait to jump in. Well, let me. Before we jump into that, can you tell us a little bit about the first 10 years of your marriage and what was that like? Yeah. Well, first tell us how many years you've been married. So give us then a little insight into the first 10 years. And how did you try to change your husband so we'll get.

Ann Wilson (6:07)

Oh, you think I did. You think I tried to change him?

Melissa Krueger (6:10)

Maybe not. Maybe not.

Ann Wilson (6:12)

We've been married 45 years. We have three kids, seven that are all married and seven grandkids. And honestly, when Dave and I met, I thought, this is the most fantastic man on the planet. We both love Jesus and we are pretty new in our faith, but I thought, we're going to change the world together. We have terrible past. Neither one of us grew up in a Christian home, but who cares about that because now we're new creatures in Christ and God's just going to use all of that. And so I thought marriage would be so easy because we love Jesus and we're totally committed to Jesus and to each other. And Dave and I had gone to a weekend to remember Marriage Getaway that family life hosts. And we speak for them now, two weeks before we got married. And if you would have asked me on that day, like, what are Dave Wilson, what are Dave Wilson's weaknesses? I would have said, oh, boy, I can't even think of any. And then six months later, this is horrible, you guys. Six months later, I remember we were in this huge fight. We're going to the University of Nebraska to be on staff with crew. And I remember looking at him thinking, I can't think of anything I really like about him. We just. Horrible. And then we are in this big fight. So I yell, marrying you really loud. Actually marrying you was the biggest mistake of my life. And so I don't think I realized then too, that marriage has its valleys that are really low and it has the mountaintops. Like every single relationship, it's normal to go from peaks and valleys, that's normal. We just didn't know how to get out of it and how to build a relationship on the foundation of Jesus. And so that took us to a place of pulling out our old manual that we went through at the weekend to remember that we really didn't pay attention to because we assumed we would be so great. And we actually taught it. We had a Bible study because we had some married students ask us, hey, we're really struggling in our marriage. Could you guys help us? And Dave and I were like, we don't really like each other, but I guess we can see what God says about marriage. And it really helped us a ton. And so we kind of got through some of that. We learned what it's like to build a marriage on the foundation of Jesus. But then we went through another valley. When we had two kids that were 4 and 2 Dave, we were starting a church. Dave had been the chaplain for the Detroit Lions for 35 years. So he was on the road traveling with them. And we came to a point in year 10 that I told Dave, like, I've lost all my feelings for you. I don't know how we get out of this valley because it feels so bleak and so hopeless. And we both went through a journey of repenting. It's a long story. It's in this book right here, Vertical Marriage. But we really learned how to daily put Jesus as king of our marriage and our lives. But I think it was at that point that I realized, and I felt like God was telling me, Ann Wilson, you've been trying to find all of your hope and your meaning and your happiness through Dave. I never made him or equipped him to make you happy and to fill you up to the brim. That's my job. And I think it was the first time I realized that I had made my marriage, which is a good thing, and Dave, which is a good thing, as an idol. And I think when I take my. I don't know if anybody else is like this, but when I take my eyes off of Jesus, I'm looking for something to make me happy and to fill me up. And even though marriage is so great and God ordained it and he really distinguishes, still isn't the source of our happiness. And then about 10 years later, we hit another valley. And I think that's when I kind of started this idea of realizing, wow, my words today can tend to be really critical. And even my thoughts about Dave can be really critical. So I just feel like it's normal to go up and down. And what I've tried to figure out is how do I put Jesus at the throne of my life? At the throne. And he's in control of everything all the time. Because it's easy for me to take his place and try to find my happiness and joy through other things rather than Jesus.

Melissa Krueger (10:35)

Wow. There's so much encouragement in what you just said. I mean, first, just the acknowledgement of the up and downs. Right. Because I think that was shocking to me too.

Ann Wilson (10:45)

I was like, really? No, no, no.

Melissa Krueger (10:47)

We're going to be a Christian marriage.

Ann Wilson (10:49)

Yes.

Melissa Krueger (10:51)

So it's gonna just be from here to glory, a linear path of new delights all along the way. You know, I mean, I really did have this kind of mindset of. No, no, because we have all the right theology.

Ann Wilson (11:07)

Mm. Yes.

Melissa Krueger (11:10)

We're gonna be great.

Ann Wilson (11:12)

And then because we're new creatures in Christ.

Melissa Krueger (11:14)

Yeah.

Ann Wilson (11:15)

Not knowing that there's some baggage that God wants to heal and deal with.

Melissa Krueger (11:20)

No, there's no baggage. What are you talking about?

Ann Wilson (11:21)

Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Sponsor/Announcer (11:23)

Exactly.

Melissa Krueger (11:23)

And so it was, you know, and I would even say we agree on 99% of life, but, man, let me tell you, the battles we can get in over that 1%, like, wow. I mean, like, the lines can be drawn, the war can commence, and it's just. It really exposes so much of my heart. And I think exactly what you just said about it exposes that. I think he's supposed to fix my life and be the source of my happiness, which is why if I'm not happy, he must need to change.

Ann Wilson (12:00)

It's his fault.

Melissa Krueger (12:02)

Yeah.

Ann Wilson (12:03)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (12:04)

And I can remember sometimes particularly bad when we first moved overseas, we. We had moved for his PhD work, and I felt really lost, and I didn't. You know, I didn't want to be there. Let's just be honest. I didn't want to be there. I felt like I had followed him, and I pretty much made sure he knew every day everything that was hard about living overseas was a little bit his faul.

Ann Wilson (12:32)

Did you have any kids?

Melissa Krueger (12:34)

No, no. We had our first baby over there. We had our first baby over there. So that's fun too, you know, so, you know, different health care, all alone. Yeah. So we went through all that, but it was really the. But even before the baby was born. And I can remember the Lord getting a hold of me one day with the Word, which is always rather convicting. And it was that verse, do not be like the horse or the mule who have to be controlled by bitten bridle. Or they will not come to you.

Ann Wilson (13:00)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (13:00)

And I just felt this deep conviction of, oh yeah, you followed your husband, you came, but you're coming like a mule who's being controlled by bitten bridle to get there. And the Lord just started exposing. Maybe your problem isn't, you know, your circumstances, but your heart. And I think that's what marriage really exposes a lot of times.

Ann Wilson (13:21)

All the time.

Melissa Krueger (13:22)

Yeah. So when you think about your marriage and, and how has that changed? Like, how have you grown and even your understanding of your husband and like, what's come with that maturity of 45 years? Here's what I love that you even just said there's still the up and downs. Yeah. You talk about these valleys and I think that's really helpful for people to hear because if you're in a valley right now, you might just be getting ready to go back up the hill. So that's actually encouraging. But not to think you're gonna always stay on the mountaintop. So what lessons have you Learned in those 45 years and how has that changed as you look back?

Ann Wilson (14:04)

I think as we go through seasons of life too? Like, Dave and I were doing ministry together and we were loving it. Like, this is so fun. And then we started having babies and I start pulling back and I'm home more and suddenly I feel like, wait, you're still conquering the world and you're leaving me at home by myself and I want to change the world too. And it feels, it can feel like, wait, what's happening? You have no time, you're tired as a young mom. So I think that season of having young kids is really hard. Man, if I didn't have my friends and Jesus and the Bible and a good community and a church, I don't know what I would have done. And I talk to a lot of women too, that are empty nesters or maybe they've gone through teenage years where you're figuring things out. And so those stages are really important. But I think what I can tend to do, and as I've matured, I think maybe one of the things I'm realizing now is when I start to feel dissatisfied with Dave, I do an inner inspection because I can catch myself complaining and grumbling about Dave. We all do that. We can do it about our kids, our life, our circumstances. But when I find myself being bugged by him, like, I talked to this one lady yesterday, I was at Evereve getting some jeans and she was asking me about, like, so what do you do you do marriage? What? And so I told her a little bit that Dave and I do marriage conferences and we have podcasts. And she says, well, I hate marriage. I hate it. This is my second marriage, and I can't stand the way he puts the dishes in the cabinet. And so I'm thinking to myself, oh, man, I understand. Because you can get in this rut of negativity, seeing your spouse in a way that's so negative, and then you become resentful. Because that's what I feel like I did. I was angry at the circumstances, and then my anger turned to bitterness. My bitterness turned to resentment. And this is year 10. And then my resentment turned to nothingness. And if that's going on in your marriage, it should be like the engine light flashing on the lights of your. Of your car. Like, get this checked. Get it checked. Because when that happens, you should be thinking, oh, this isn't where we're supposed to be, and God is putting that flashing light to get your attention. And honestly, Melissa, here's what happened with this book. This is the craziest story. This is where the book starts. Because now we're, like, at this stage of marriage, I think we're like 20 years in, and we had some. All our kids were in elementary school, but things then take a different kind of busy. You're taking them to all their activities. And so Dave and I were asked. I was asked to speak to a women's group at our church, and I was busy. I'm like, dave, you want to do it with me? It'd be so much fun to do it with you. Because he's the pastor. Like, the women will love it. And he's just a great communicator. And so he's like, yeah, I'll do it with you. So I'm all excited. Like, this is going to be fun. And then I said, like, what do you want talk about? He goes, I don't know. Let's just wing it. Like, oh, okay. So we're. We're sitting on these stools, and Dave gets super amped up. My husband has a lot of energy and passion, and he gets up off of his stool, and he starts pacing on this stage in front of these women. And he's saying things I have never heard him share in our 20 years, like, ever. And he goes, women, I don't even know what you. If you get what it's like for us as men, because usually as little kids, we have a parent cheering for us or a grandparent or somebody saying, good Job, good job. You're good at this. And he goes. And then we get into our thing, like, what we're good at sports, school, whatever. And we have a teacher coach, somebody saying, hey, you're good at that. And they cheer for us. And he said, I played college football as a quarterback. So on Saturdays, I have people saying, dave, Pap. Dave Wilson, you're the man. And then he says, and then I meet Ann, and basically she says, of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson, you're the man. And I'm sitting on this school thinking, oh, wow. I've never heard him say this. This is cool. I've never thought of that. And then, Melissa, his entire demeanor changes, and he gets real soft and goes. And then. You know what it's like for us as men and for me as a man. Now it feels like I walk in the door at the end of the day, and all I hear is, boo, boo, boo. I'm sitting on this stool, like, wait, what. What just happened? What is. What is he talking about? He's never, ever shared anything like this to me in our lives, ever, Ever. I'm telling him stuff all the time, but he very seldom says stuff to me. And so I don't even know how we ended. We get in the car, and I'm like, you think I boo you? I am helping you. I am helping you to be better. I'm just pointing out things that could be better. And then he goes, but, Ann, is it even working? I'm like, no. No, it's not working. So I need to say it more often or just, like, you know, say it louder. And he goes, I don't know. Here's what it feels like for me. And he's never said any of this, Melissa, ever, in our lives. And it just feels like you have to tweak me all the time. You have to fix this, fix that, point out that, point out this, like I'm a child, and you're trying to, like, maneuver and fix me to become this man that you want me to be. And I said, everybody's cheering you all the time. Which I really. They did. Oh, Dave, you're amazing. Not realizing that my voice is the most important voice and my words are the most important words. And I thought, everybody. Nobody needs. He doesn't need that. For me, he's getting it. I didn't realize that I was having the opposite effect. And honestly, I didn't mean to hurt Dave. I really. I thought I was helping him. Just pointing out some things that he could be better.

Melissa Krueger (20:16)

In I'm hearing this, and I'm feeling so convicted. I mean, I'm like, yeah, you're just helping him. That's what we're supposed to do. Help them know what they're doing wrong. You know, I'm really like, oh. And then to hear how it was interpreted by him as, boo. Yeah, I think it's the Princess Bride.

Sponsor/Announcer (20:41)

Boo.

Melissa Krueger (20:42)

Boo, whatever. Like, oh, yeah, okay. That is really interesting, because I do think we. We feel like it's our role to help by fixing them.

Ann Wilson (20:55)

Yeah. There's things that we can see that would be helpful for them if they change or helpful for us. And I don't. And I mean, Scripture, Proverbs 18:21 says, the power of life and death is in the tongue. And even, like, I mean, you've heard these verses, Melissa, Proverbs 21:19. It's better to live alone in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife. But even this one, Proverbs 16:24. Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Like, even that. And I think the thing that for most of us as women, we don't want to hurt them. We're not meaning to harm them in any way. But I don't think we realize the power that we have and the power of our words, not only over our husbands, but our friends, our kids, our parents, all of that. It's really. We have the power to change things for good or for bad.

Melissa Krueger (21:53)

When you just said that, I was thinking, I think the proverb is, rash words pierce like the sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Ann Wilson (22:03)

Healing.

Melissa Krueger (22:04)

And I just think, whether it's our kids or our husband, often those closest to us are where our rash words are most likely to come and to hear their, like, sword thrust.

Ann Wilson (22:15)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (22:16)

You know, it's so convicting to think, wow, the tongue has the power to pierce like the sword, but it also has the power to heal. And I know. So I know you talk to women all over. You know, y' all have done these marriage conferences for years. Are there any things that rise to the surface that women come to you saying, yeah, but this is what I really. If this could change, everything in my life would change. Are there. Are there any patterns you've seen as you talk to women?

Ann Wilson (22:49)

Yeah, and I'd love to see what you say to that, too. One of the things that I'll start with myself, like, my husband's a pastor, but I had this idea of what it looked like to Spiritually lead or our kids, and to kind of pour into our kids so that spiritual leadership. I felt like he brought all of his energy to the outside and not the inside of our home. You know, I'm like, can you just initiate prayer? And he did, but I just had this standard of what it should look like. And he just seemed like it was an afterthought. I wanted him to be the one to do that. So that's one of them. I think that I've heard a lot of women. Well, a lot of times women want their husbands to have friends, accountability that they're not the ones always dragging the family to church. Those are some of the big ones that I would say addressing some of their. Maybe their laziness. What we can see is laziness, like, stop playing video games or stop watching espn. And so I think we have this whole list of things. I want you to talk to me. And so I think we have a list. But it's interesting because when I. I'm a visual learner and teacher. And so when I hear. Oh, by the way, let me say this. When I got home from that car trip, home from the boo story, I went before God. I got it. I went in my room, I shut the door, and I got on my knees. And I have a relationship with God. I love him. He's my father, God, the alpha, the omega. But I also vent everything to him as a daughter. Like, lord, can you believe that? Like, that was embarrassing and humiliating. And how would you know? How could he say this? And then at the end of my rant, because Psalms does that, where David pours out his heart before God. And then at the end, I said, God, do I boo Dave? Do I? And I felt. I felt this conviction, not a condemnation or shame, but I felt like God was saying, ann, yes. And start paying attention to what you think about him and what you say about him. And, man, that was an ugly eye opener. But one of the things that I did was because I was trying to communicate to women what this can feel like to their men. So Dave and I were doing a series at our church on marriage, and I put these two plants on the stage. And I said, as women, we're going to have these plants be men for this illustration. So we look at this plant like, this one's amazing. And I look at this one. It's lush. He has all the qualities I was looking for. And we marry him. We're like, look at him. Like, he's amazing. And then we look a little closer and we see this little brown, and so we pull out our pruners because we think it's my job. Isn't that helper word? Aren't I the helper? And so my job is to help him realize that he has this brown leaf. Cause he used to be super romantic and now he says nothing. And all he does is watch TV at night. And so we clip off that little leaf and we throw it away. And they're like, wait, this has more. It has a lot of brown leaves. So we get out our hedge clippers and I start chopping away. Because you don't lead, you don't initiate prayer, you don't listen to me, you never talk. I don't know your heart, you to ask me questions. I want you to. We have all these things we list, meet my needs. And we're chopping away to the point where there's nothing left but this stump. The whole time we were thinking we were helping him. And yet when we were done with this illustration, there was. It's in a thousand seat auditorium. There's this man and woman sitting there all by themselves. No one else left. So I went over to talk to them. They were sitting in these chairs in their 80s. They're in their 80s. And this man has his head in his hands and I can see these teardrops plopping on the floor. And she said, I don't know what's happening. He's been crying since you chopped up that plant. And I asked him, like, what are you feeling? What's going on? And he lifts his head with these tears just dropping off his face. And he points to the plant on the stage and he says, that stump is me. And his wife turned to me and she said, I had no idea. He's never said anything. I really thought I was helping him. And I think that's just the point of we do mean to help. We're hoping that our words will encourage. I thought my words would motivate Dave, like, I'll show her. And what they did is they pushed him away. And I think we all tend to go to where people cheer us and believe in us. And that wasn't happening in our home at the time.

Melissa Krueger (27:29)

That is really. That imagery is gonna stay with me of just this.

Ann Wilson (27:35)

Oh, you must be a visual learner.

Melissa Krueger (27:37)

Yeah, I'm a visual too. I'm like, ooh, that's powerful. I mean, just what am I trying to build, you know, I mean, what is it? The foolish woman, the wise woman builds her house. But the foolish tears down with her own hands.

Ann Wilson (27:52)

Yes, that's it.

Melissa Krueger (27:54)

Yeah. And it's that visual of that. And that's really interesting what you said, because that's the exact thing I hear from women, their belongings, about spiritual leadership. Like these women are not. I've never had a woman say, well, if he just brought home six figures, then I'd be happy. Yeah. Now, now I think some men, now, maybe, maybe some are feeling that pressure too. They probably do because of what she's spending. They might be feeling that pressure or.

Ann Wilson (28:22)

Whatever Amazon package is coming.

Melissa Krueger (28:24)

They might. They might feel it for those reasons. But the things I hear are exactly what you said. Although I was laughing because when you mentioned the male friendships, I was like, huh? Yeah. We want them to have male friendships and accountability so they'll do the work of changing them so we don't have to anymore.

Ann Wilson (28:40)

Yes. Yes.

Melissa Krueger (28:42)

It really comes back to some of the same things, I think, and those are good things. So I think this is. I'm gonna take a break in just a minute to hear from our sponsor, but this is what I want to discuss when we come back is, okay, how do we entrust those things to the Lord and wait on him? But then is there a time when there's sinful behaviors involved that there is a right way to confront? You know, I mean, these. Yeah, these are. These are really difficult topics. And marriages are going through different things. So let's take a break. Let's hear from our sponsor. And when we come back, I'm gonna ask for your wisdom on that. Cause I need it, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners do as well.

Sponsor/Announcer (29:33)

There is something powerful about walking through the Bible at the same time. When everyone is reading the same scripture each day. Conversations change, hearts open. People feel connected not just to God, but to each other. One Year Bibles are designed to guide readers through the entire Bible in 365 days. It is one reading a day. And by the end of the year, you will have gone through the entire Bible together. One body moving in one direction through one story. It is more than a reading plan. It is a way to build unity, deepen discipleship, and create shared momentum to know God and each other more. Find a one year Bible for your community@the1yearbible.com.

Melissa Krueger (30:25)

Okay. Ann, it's been such a joy to have this conversation with you. I am actually, I genuinely am just feeling convicted for how I want to use my words with my husband. And, and even. Even there might be times to correct, but to think daily. Have I told him What I love about him, because the reality is I deeply love him. There are things I just think the world of him, but sometimes I zero in. I remember Elizabeth Elliott said, if a wife just genuinely adores 80% of her husband, she should feel really blessed. And she said, but it's really easy to fixate on the 20% that isn't up to your standards. She's like, or you can choose to enjoy the 80%.

Ann Wilson (31:16)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (31:16)

And that has always kind of stuck with me. But the reality is we are sinners and we're married to sinners. So how do we as wives, as we live side by side, there is a right place. The Bible tells us that we're to confront one another. How do we confront sin? And then when is it just time to overlook an offense? Like, what's the difference between those two? It's a wisdom issue. But do you have any wisdom to offer us on how to discern between those two?

Ann Wilson (31:47)

Yeah. First let me say if any of you are in an abusive situation where your husband is physically hurting you or your children or just very abusive, we're not saying just cheer him on. We're saying get yourself safe first, get your kids safe. And you need to get help. Like that's the most important thing. We're talking about generally, like good willed men who are, they want a great marriage, they're trying their best. And so I just want to make sure that you hear that. And then I think too, one of the things I felt like God was saying to me was I'm not a kind of person that can fake it. Like, oh, you're amazing. Because I think there is a place where we do speak the truth in love and that's really important. And I think I was afraid to lose my voice. Like, I'm not going to be some fake. Oh, you're amazing, Dave. And be resentful. So what does that look like? And so I felt like God was saying when I asked him and talked to him about that, I felt like he was saying, anne, find the greatness in Dave. And so that became my prayer. Father, show me the greatness in Dave and then help me to communicate that, just as you said, Melissa, it's easy to see good things that we don't even talk about. We take it for granted, but we point out the things that are negative. And so I started very simply by saying thank you to Dave. And this just shows how sinful I am. I'm so embarrassed. Like, hey hon, thanks for bringing in the trash cans. Like, okay, it's that simple. Now you're starting to look for what he's doing right or well. And so thank you felt like, okay, I can do that. I'm gonna start thanking him for all these things. And here's why I didn't. This is embarrassing. I didn't say thank you because I thought, well, who thanks me? I do everything around here. Do you hear the pride and the arrogance in that? Like, who thanks me? You know, who sees you? Jesus, Father. God sees every single little thing you do, and he's cheering you on. So I started out by saying thank you. And this one night, we were having dinner, and I said, hey, guys, before we pray, I just want to say, dave, thanks for working so hard. Like, honestly, you work really hard to provide. You're a great provider, and I appreciate how much work you put into doing the best at whatever you do. And the boys are like, mom, can we just eat? What's happening? And Dave told me later, he goes, I knew that you were reading all this stuff in Scripture, and you're really praying about this. And I knew that I could see a book on the table beside you. It still felt so good. And he said it felt like this breath of air in my lungs that, like, what, you think I'm good at this? Like, it. He said, it energized me more than you can ever know. And so then if we start filling up our spouse or our kids or our friends, we start saying the things that we see that God put in them. Now they start having the surplus. Their tank is full. And you've heard this before. So you're depositing these deposits of life words. And if you're not good at saying them, text them, you know, in some way communicate that. And then if you see a truth. And here's. I have to say this, too. I am a verbal processor. If I think it, I generally say it. And so I decided, like, okay, Lord, I need to not do that because I'm getting myself in trouble all the time. And so I started praying these little breathy prayers. God, should I say it? Some women don't say anything, but it can build up inside. And you're thinking, I just don't want to say it. It's not that big. But if it keeps, pray. Lord, should I say something? And so let me give you an example of that. This one night. Oh, this is terrible. This book reveals so much sin in me, it's ridiculous. I hope other people don't judge me.

Melissa Krueger (35:40)

It's terrible to write a book because that's basically what it's gonna do. It's terrible.

Ann Wilson (35:46)

So this one night, Dave comes home. He's preached four times that weekend. He's been on the lion's sideline the whole day. So he goes to bed super late. He's exhausted, and he says just this. This quick little comment. He says, man, I've been getting critiques lately about my sermons. And I could tell that he was really discouraged about that. And here's what came into my mind, which I would have said in the past. Honey, I think if you would spend more time studying the scriptures, I think your sermons would be better. That's what I would have said in the past. So here's my prayer. God, should I say that? No. No. And then here's my next prayer. Lord, should I say anything? And when is the time to say that? And how should I say it? So then there's that little, like. Because James says, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives generously without reproach, so he'll give us that wisdom. Lord, should I say anything? No. Lord, should I say? Is there anything I should say? And then this thought pops into my mind, because now I've opened this door to let the Holy Spirit do this with me. And I say to Dave, like, man, hon, I can't imagine what it's like to be you. You have thousands of people dependent on your walk with God. That has to be a weighty thing for you to carry. And then he's just. Silence, silent. And then he pulls me over and he whispers in my ear, you are my life.

Melissa Krueger (37:16)

Ugh.

Ann Wilson (37:17)

Do you see the power that we have? And you see the power that it is not even us, it's that Jesus, he's always wanting to restore and mend and breathe life into us. And I thought, what if I would have said, if you just spend more time in the Word studying your Scriptures, which maybe that was true. It doesn't even matter. But it's like, should I say it? When should I say it? How should I say it? Because what we say matters. I've said some hard things to Dave, but because his tank was full, that he knows that I love him and I'm cheering him on. I think then he can receive it and be like, okay, I needed to hear that.

Melissa Krueger (37:56)

That's so good. And I think this is also really helpful for any women married to pastors in particular, and even maybe people who look at women who are married to pastors, because sometimes you're comparing your husband, who works at the bank, to the guy you heard on Sunday morning, and you're convinced that man always prays with his wife, always is reading scripture to her. It's just bathing her every day with blessings. And actually, what I feel for these men, I think what you said was 100% right. You know, our spiritual leaders, if they're pastors or, you know, my husband's been professor, but a lot of spiritual leadership, they carry the weight of that. And then they get home, and in a sense, we're like, well, this is where you're supposed to do it, the most important place you're supposed to do it. And it can just be one more weight on them. And I think it's really hard. It's the place they finally want to relax and not have to be. My husband jokes. He's like, yeah, every family gathering is always like, mike, will you pray?

Ann Wilson (39:04)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (39:05)

It's just like everywhere you go, you're kind of expected to be the pastor on call. And it is a high calling, and it's a calling both of our husbands love. But it does make it hard sometimes, especially in the home, when you just need a break. And so I love that you just spoke life to him like that, the way you turned it to say rather than, you know, well, I need. Yeah, I need from you or whatever, to just understand, like, to be kind and think about the weights he is bearing each day as a pastor. And when your life is lived before so many people, yet so many people have expectations on our husbands in a lot of ways. I mean, you know, beyond just the ones in the family. So I love. I think it's really helpful for. For people to even hear that, but just to think through, hey, what would actually encourage my husband in this moment? What would help him? Because, you know, you may have been exactly right in what you were saying, just like you said, but you were also exactly right in your empathy. Like, you saw who he was as a person. So both were true. And in that moment, what he needed was just to know you were a soft place to land and that you were deeply for him, you know, And I think that's beautiful.

Ann Wilson (40:26)

I don't know if you've had women ask you this, but I've had women say, I've been married to him. He knows I love him. I don't want to have to weigh everything I say. It's exhausting. Can I just say it? And the thought that came to my mind is something that my kids said to me when they were little, like, mom, why are you so nice to all the strangers, like, you're nicer to them than to us. And so when we're married, God instituted marriage before the church. This matters to him. And the way we love each other with our flaws, with our brokenness is a reflection of the gospel. It's miraculous. And it's this light that God wants to show off to the world. And yet I think it's easy to think, if he would just do this and this and this, I would be happy. So then it becomes about us. And so this one. I remember this one night, Dave, when I was saying that prayer. God, show me the greatness in Dave. We have a son also that's a pastor now, and he talks about putting on God goggles. He said, when you put these God goggles on, you see people the way God sees them, and then you say the things that God would say to them. And so it's almost. This has become my prayer every day. God, show me the greatness. Help me to put on my God goggles to see not only Dave, but our kids and our friends and our neighbors the way you see them so I can say the things that you would say to them. And this one night, I was. Because now I'm looking at Dave, and I get into the book. I get into even our neurological pathways that we formed of negativity. I would always go into the negative. Like, I remember folding clothes one time thinking, you know, if Dave would just be home more, and if he would just do this and why isn't he doing this? And I felt God speak to me in my spirit. What would happen if you prayed for him as much as you complained about him? And I had created a neurological pathway. Now the science backs it up of negativity. And so now I'm putting on this new frame. I mean, Romans 12:2 says, don't be conformed by this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And that new. That word renewal is a word of metamorphosis. Like, it totally can change. And so I was starting to pray that God, like, you need to renew my mind the way I think about Dave, because it starts here. So this one night, Dave's praying with the boys, and now I have my God goggles on, and God's starting to renew my mind and going down a new neurological path. And so I see him different. And when he comes out of the room, I said to him, man, I'm really jealous of the power that you have over our kids. He goes, what are you talking about? And this was my biggest complaint. You know, hey, why don't you read the Bible? Like Steve reads it every night to his kids? And, you know. Anyway, so I said that to him. I'm just like, I'm so jealous of the power that you have, because when I'm in there, it's like bedlam and chaos. Like, it's craziness. But when you pray and you speak to them, even about Jesus, man, they're clinging to every word. That wasn't something I was making up. I didn't do any of this to manipulate. But I'm just starting now to see Dave in a different light. And I'm telling you, the next night, he was up there again, and the next night, he was up there again. And he said, it gave me hope. Like, I feel like I'm a failure. And I think a lot of men feel this, that they're failing us, they're failing our kids. They don't know how to parent, how to be a husband. They keep a lot of that internally. And I think for us to be the ones that are saying, no, I see some things that you're really good in. It's so energizing. Nothing has changed Dave more than me seeing the way God sees him and saying it. He has become a different guy. And that's not why I never did it. It wasn't to change him. It was to change me.

Melissa Krueger (44:17)

That's so good. And I think, too, it's interesting, these things I have learned in parenting. One time, I heard, and this was actually. I always hate to kind of admit this, but one of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got was on the Oprah Winfrey show back in the day. But it was so good. I repeat it all the time. It was Toni Morrison, and she said, when that child walks into the room, you light up. So often the mom is pulling up the pants and saying, your collar's not right. Button this and do this. You're always critiquing when your child walks in the room. And she says, light up when they walk in the room, Melissa. And I was like, oh, now I'm hearing you talk. And I'm like, I should be lighting up when my husband walks in the room.

Ann Wilson (45:06)

See, I'm convicted by that, too.

Melissa Krueger (45:08)

I'm like, no, no, I'm doing work. I'm doing it. You know, Whereas I might stop for my child. I'm hearing you now. And I'm like, oh, I need to light up when he walks in the room and not just be fixated on, hey, pull up your pants. I mean, his pants pulled up. Yeah, but like, I mean, we can be fixated on the wrong things and.

Ann Wilson (45:27)

Like, you're late or you were supposed to be here at this time and.

Melissa Krueger (45:31)

Yeah, yeah. Rather than just be like, wow, my life is better because you're in it. And to let my face show that. And to. You know, when you were talking about the verse, I was thinking of whatever is lovely or praiseworthy, think on these things. And how often I'm tempted to just think about what needs to change versus really setting my mind on what is good and what is lovely and what is praiseworthy because. And sometimes, you know, in certain seasons of marriage, just like you said, we dig deeper to find those things. But I do think the more it becomes a habit of our mental battle, and I think we just get mentally lazy and so. But that mental battle of, I'm going to choose gratefulness, I'm going to choose to look at this person. And I love Tim Keller. In his the Meaning of Marriage book, he said, when we get to heaven, I'm gonna finally see you. I normally tear up every time I say this and I'm gonna look at you and I'm gonna say, I always knew you could be like this. Like, that's the person you wanna be married to. When you're looking for a potential mate, who's the person? You say, I know you're not there yet, I know you're not, but I see what he's gonna do when he glorifies. You knew you could be like that. That hopefulness as we look at our partner, that the Lord is the one who's gonna transform them and shape them. And we get to be part of walking alongside of each other. And of course we're gonna be part of that shaping. But it really is the Lord by his spirit, who changes us and who changes them. And I think that's so hopeful that, yeah, there is hope for growth for us both. I mean. Cause I think what I've heard from you and what I love about your wisdom is it's so humble because you're. You're willing to say it's me who needed to change, not just him who needed to change. And I think that's the glory of this thing called marriage. It is a sanctifying tool, but we need it as well. And so it's a really good thing. Can you give us any final encouragements as people are thinking about their marriage? And then I've got a last fun question for you, but any final encouragement?

Ann Wilson (47:55)

Well, I think some of us too. We might not say anything negative, but even as I studied this with some professors and some things that they've seen, that women give off more of their way of being than their words. And so I was so convicted as you said that too, Melissa, because I get so. I'm very focused and intense. So I get into something and Dave could walk in the door and I don't even acknowledge him. And so. And we just recorded somebody last week that she said, I was constantly in the principal's office, but it never mattered. Even if I was in trouble and I was the worst kid in the world or the best kid in the world, my mom's face always lit up when she saw me. And what would that look like for us as wives? That our husbands would. When we saw them, we would. And let me just say this, it's an act of your will. You can't wait for your feelings to be there to do it. It's almost an obedience. Because God the Father, can you imagine the way he would greet us every time because he loves us so much. We're all made in his image. And so to be a reflection of the Father, maybe that's a worship moment for you that I'm going to do this no matter how I feel. Even hug your husband when he walks in the door, give him a kiss. I love that. I'll just end with this. My friend was struggling with this. She had three girls and I had kind of been through this season and her husband was traveling every week, always busy, always home, just grinding at his job. And she was complaining every time we walked like four days a week. And I said, michelle, I don't think like it's going to help you just to kind of constantly complain and tell him about it. And so I kind of told her my journey and she said, I'm bad at words. It's really hard for me to get out those good words. And I'm like, yeah, but you're really good at texting. You have a shepherd's heart. So ask God, like show me the greatness and maybe you write it. I don't know what you do, but text it or something. So she buys this beautiful. And it doesn't have to be beautiful, but she brought this leather bound journal and she just started this daily practice and maybe it was weekly, but every once in a while she'd write in the journal and her prayer was, God, show me the greatness and the things that Rob's doing right? And then she'd write em in her journal it could be as simple. Thanks for putting up the Christmas lights outside in Michigan in the winter. I know you hate it. I know it's freezing, but you do it every single year because you love us so much and you serve us so beautifully. Hey, thanks for getting to the soccer game. I know you couldn't get there till the end because she would always complain. Oh, my gosh. She's not there till the end, she said. But when you walk into the stadium to see our daughter, I see her eyes, see you walk in, and her entire demeanor lights up. That's the power you carry as a father. So those are examples. And she just writes them periodically, and then she gives it to him on his birthday. He sits in the chair, has no idea what this is. He reads it and cries the entire time. And this is my husband's best friend. And so we ask him, rob, why did you cry? And he said, because I'm not that I'm constantly failing. I feel like I'm terrible at this. I feel like I'm not what I should be. She said, but her words, I want to be the best man on the planet. I want to serve her. I want to love her. I want to be the best dad. And I was like, oh, my gosh. This is just like this power that we have as women. And it's not that we don't speak truth that we said, but, man, when we can see the best in people and we say it, that's like being Jesus on the planet, you know, in our own broken nature, but our own, but our also renewed nature as a child of God.

Melissa Krueger (51:37)

I think that is such just beautiful wisdom to take the time. I think we think of fighting for our marriage always, like going to a conference or going to counseling or doing some things like that, but just to take five minutes a day and take some time to meditate on, why are you thankful for your husband? And write it down. I love what she did. And then give it to him for his birthday. I mean, that's really powerful. And those are ways that everyone can do. It doesn't involve a vacation, an expensive date night. I think it's just a really beautifully simple way that we can leave this conversation and say, I'm gonna work on building my marriage by just what I think about. And I'm gonna take the time to write it down.

Ann Wilson (52:23)

And it could be you just text something, you know, and it's maybe a thank you, because your heart may not be in it. Maybe you're at that point, but you could text a thank you. And just use something you noticed today.

Melissa Krueger (52:36)

Yeah. Well, let me ask you just as our final closing question. What's something you love about Dave? If you were gonna write that note to him and say it on here, what. What would you say to him today?

Ann Wilson (52:48)

First of all, I love him. He and I are very similar in some ways, but he's got these. These attributes that are so unlike me. One, he's way more chill than I am. Like, there's a laid back to him. Even though he's super successful in everything he does, he's like this anchor, you know, I can be like, oh my gosh, this is the worst. Oh, this is awful. You know, and I can be more up and down, but he's just like this steady guy. But there's this other thing that he has that I so admire about him, and that's this freedom to be exactly who he is. We're at this. We're getting. We're with all of our friends, we're gonna go on this cruise. And there's this. Before we get on this cruise, we at this. On this evening before the cruise, there's this concert on the grounds on the grass. And Dave plays the guitar. And he, he's. And this is. He's not drinking, he's not doing anything, but he's up on the stage. He's not on the stage, but he's beside the stage acting like he's playing the air guitar. And like, who does this? And it's not to get attention. It's just because he's funny and he's just free and. And I'm like, oh, what are people thinking? And I don't want to look dumb or whatever. And he just doesn't care. People can think he's the biggest idiot or crazy person and he doesn't care. He'll just do it. And I'm way more insecure in all of that of people's image, you know, whatever they're thinking. But I. There's this part of. This secret part of me is like, look at him go. He's so free. And I think I've always thought that was so fun.

Melissa Krueger (54:22)

I love that. I love that Mike nor I are the people who will be up on stage doing fun things. We're so boring. I mean, like, as we're aging, we're like, so you want to do the crossword puzzle again on the tv? That's like our exciting night. So I am.

Ann Wilson (54:41)

It's because you guys are brilliant. That's why. It's the smartest people do those things.

Melissa Krueger (54:46)

We're so boring. We're like, we are sad, but we are. We are boring together. And that's what I love about our marriage. I'm very thankful. I love fun people like that. I wish I had a little bit of it in me, but sadly, Mike and all, be sure it's so fun. Well, we'll be in the. We'll be in heaven's library together one day, and we'll. We'll come visit the fun people out there, so.

Ann Wilson (55:14)

And we'll sit at your feet and learn from you.

Melissa Krueger (55:17)

I love. I love hearing that. It's. It is really good to focus in on what we love about our spouses. And I think it's just a beautiful thing. And, you know, even last night, I was having a hard day, and, you know, I just. Micah's my safe place. I can just cry and be not strong and lose it. Like what you were saying about the anchor, and I'm so thankful. And he was like, hey, let's just go out to dinner and you can just tell me all about it. And it was just. Yeah, it's just that he's the safe place. And I love that about my husband. So it's so good to hear. But we still have valleys and we still have peaks. Yeah, everyone does, but it's choosing to rejoice in what is rather than always try to focus on what isn't. So I think that's really wise. Well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, please like and subscribe. Wherever you hear. Get your podcast. And, Ann, thank you for being here. I think I know I will leave really thinking about my words a lot more and wanting to build up rather than tear down. So this is great for our marriages, but it's really great for any relationship. So thanks for being with us today.

Ann Wilson (56:39)

Thanks, Melissa. It's always good to be with you.

Melissa Krueger (56:45)

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing, growing in your faith. We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.