← The Deep Dish
The Deep Dish
Why Can We Trust the Bible?
00:43:14
Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor talk with Vanessa Hawkins about the many reasons believers have to put their confidence in the Bible.
Loading summary
Transcript204 lines
- [00:00]
Christine Hoover
When hardship strikes, where do you go? When life overwhelms you, where do you run? In the midst of pain and crisis, we can struggle to believe God is enough to carry us through. Christine Hoover's new Verse by Verse Bible Study More Than Enough will use the truths of 2 Corinthians to help you understand God is More than Enough in your times of weakness. Great for women, small groups or individuals. More Than Enough will encourage you not to work harder or to hide your weaknesses, but to call upon God's strength and cling to Him. Shop the More Than Enough Bible study@lifeway.com MoreThaneEnough Are you seeking seminary level theological education that fits your ministry and life? Bible Mesh offers flexible, affordable theological training with personal guidance from PhD credentialed teaching fellows. No upfront lump sum payments, just a manageable monthly tuition while you're enrolled. Their credit bearing online courses can even transfer to partner institutions if seminary is in your future. Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, missionary, or simply passionate about deepening your biblical understanding, their structured approach strengthens your theological foundation while you remain active in your local church. Bible Mesh where theological excellence meets real world accessibility A Apply today, start next week visit biblemesh.com I think we've all.
- [01:26]
Melissa Krueger
Woken up one day and said, I'm kind of spending my whole life on this. Is this right? Because that is exactly what God's word asks you to do, right?
- [01:35]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yes.
- [01:35]
Melissa Krueger
The wise man heard these words and he built his home on this. And you know, when the winds and rain came, the house stood firm. Hey friends, welcome to the Deep Dish Podcast. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with my co host Courtney Docter and we are joined by our good friend Vanessa K. Hawkins. We're so glad you're here, Vanessa. And today we are going to be talking about kind of a deep topic, I think a deep topic and it's basically the reliability of Scripture. And so you know, it's, it's, it's not a light, fluffy afternoon conversation that we're having today and we all just did eat lunch, so I'm convinced my brain's not working that well. But we're hoping that this is going to be beneficial. And so I want to ask you, Vanessa, I mean, you minister in New York City. You know, you're in the middle of a lot of ideas, a lot of cultural moments and culture shaping things happen in your city when you hear people question the reliability of the Bible or question the Scriptures. What do you think is behind some of that what types of questions have you heard? You know, because you're kind of in the epicenter of a lot of questions.
- [03:01]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. I think sometimes I hear the questions behind the questions.
- [03:04]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [03:04]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And which often scream is, can there really be a God who's that good? Because what I see in the, in the Bible is this bloodthirsty God who is, you know, who's killing people. And I see things that it's hard for me to believe could be true or that intelligent people could believe, you know, you know, this, this fantasy. I hear things like it's. It's not culturally relevant, it's outdated. So can I trust it? Because it wasn't written in our time. It. Does it. If it were, if it was true, does it still ring true? And so some of those types of questions or stories that defy the law of science, the miracles in Scripture. And so I hear, you know, lots of those types of questions.
- [03:50]
Melissa Krueger
So it sounds like the doubts you're hearing deal with almost the moral nature of God. If he's over this book and this is kind of reporting his people, can he be good?
- [04:00]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right.
- [04:01]
Melissa Krueger
Or then you hear, could it even scientifically take place? Are these just. Maybe it was the sandbar, he didn't really walk on the water type thing, like, what are people talking about when they're talking about demons coming out? Maybe, you know, like, are they just making up stories to kind of answer questions about that? Now we, now we answer through science.
- [04:23]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right? Right. And I think very much in that space, you hear questions that, that lend themselves to almost thinking science is the only way that we can know something.
- [04:33]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
- [04:34]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And. And we know things a lot of other ways. I mean, we know things by history. We know things by oral account, you know, just lots of. But yeah, that's exactly it. The veracity of scripture, I think, is questioned in a myriad of ways. And at the core of a lot of them is, can there really be a God who is that good and could he be sovereign over a world and the things that happen happen?
- [04:57]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, that's really interesting. What about you, Courtney?
- [04:59]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think that just along those same lines, I think that some of the questions end up even coming the other direction, where it's like, I don't really if it's true. I don't like what that means for my life, like, the authoritative nature of it, that if it's true, it's authoritative.
- [05:15]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah.
- [05:16]
Courtney Docter
And so what it means is I have to do something with my life or stop doing something with my life that I don't really want to do. And so we don't necessarily want to believe it. So I think there are different ways people come at doubt, people arrive at a place of doubt. I think we hear a lot about the. The inconsistency, supposed inconsistency of the nature of God between the Old Testament and the New Testament, you know, and it's like the Old Testament is a God of wrath, and the New Testament is a God of grace. And, you know, we can talk about that because we see so much grace in the Old Testament from page one of the story, and then we also are told of God's wrath in the New Testament. So God is the same forever. But I think people, at a quick cursory glance, might see it as two different characters of God or even two different gods. And then I think experientially, people run into places where they are. They. They arrive at a place of doubt. And so sometimes that's just like, wait a minute, I was reading something. So I think of a proverb, you know, train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it. And it's like, well, that didn't play out for me because I was reading that as a promise, right? And so therefore, I'm gonna throw the entirety of scripture out when, you know, we would want to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's read it faithfully in. In the way it was written. Right? The genre matters, and we can talk more about that.
- [06:41]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right?
- [06:41]
Courtney Docter
But so I think people arrive at places of doubting the scriptures in a lot of different ways. And so maybe it's. They. They felt like they were trusting it and it didn't play out. Or maybe they realized that if it's true, it's authoritative and it means some significant changes for their lives. Or maybe they've just done kind of a cursory glance over of the whole thing and think, oh, well, this sounds either too good to be true or too difficult to believe.
- [07:10]
Melissa Krueger
So it sounds like some of the doubts, just to summarize, because these are all helpful. Some of the doubts are, okay, can these stories be true? I don't like the God of these stories if they are true. I don't like what they might require of me if they are true. And then what I've heard a lot in my context underpinning all of those is, is the text actually the word of God, Right? So that's a whole different doubt, right? Because, you know, I mean, I. I went to University of North Carolina. We Have a professor there who's fairly famous, Bart Ehrman. And. And basically one of his. All of his writings attack the formation of the New Testament canon. And they basically say, look at all these inconsistencies.
- [07:56]
Courtney Docter
What do you mean by canon?
- [07:57]
Melissa Krueger
Okay, by the canon. By what? We basically just the Bible as we have it. So there are 27 books in the New Testament, and his work is primarily there. So that's where he's kind of focusing in on. And he pretty much, you know, you come in as a freshman, and to be quite honest, in our high school youth groups, we were playing toothpick lifesaver games. We were not really delving into is the Bible reliable.
- [08:21]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right.
- [08:22]
Melissa Krueger
And so you come in to this very academic environment and he is in some ways an apologist or. Let me educate you. Let me tell you how maybe all those fantasies you heard about in the scriptures, you need to understand this book is full of errors and it's got all these mistakes in it. So why can you trust it? And I have to say, it's happening right at the intersection when morally there are maybe some choices people would rather be making that are against the scriptural call on their lives. And so it was very convenient, to be quite honest. It was this underpinning of doubt, of, can I even trust this book? Was it just written by men? And I even remember the tradition I grew up in did not believe in the infallibility of Scripture. So I can remember having conversations with leaders in my life when they said, well, you can't believe everything in the Bible, right? I mean, it was written by men.
- [09:24]
Courtney Docter
Is that not the original lie? So Genesis 3, I mean, that's exactly what the serpent comes on the scene saying, did God really say? And so we should not be surprised that all the different ways we are tempted to doubt the word of God, it's not original. It is. It is the foundation of all sin. Because more than anything, the Lord is asking us to trust his word. And so, of course, this is a battlefield.
- [09:54]
Melissa Krueger
And that's a really good point about Genesis. Cause it's. Did he really say? And is he really good? Because he's basically saying, isn't he keeping something from you? Because if you eat of it, you'll be enlightened and you'll know that what good and evil. Yeah. So the same attack to God's word is coming to us today.
- [10:15]
Courtney Docter
Did he really say. Because if he did, he is keeping the good life from you. He's keeping whatever that is, sexual freedom. I mean, whatever it is, it's being kept from you.
- [10:23]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right?
- [10:24]
Courtney Docter
Yeah. And so we don't want to believe it and we're tempted to not believe it.
- [10:28]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
That's so good. I think about, when you're talking about the infallibility of scripture, I think of BB Warfield who makes this statement and it's always stuck with me that, you know, it's the, of course it's based on First Timothy 3 that says that all scripture is God breathe. But B.B. warfield goes a step further and says, and God can't breathe out error. And I, and I just, I love that because he says all scripture is God breathe. And it's good for correction, reproof, training and righteousness. And it is. And if we, if there can be some doubt introduced in its veracity, man are we, you know, we're weakened. We are, we are at such a disadvantage in our ability to fight and to live and we're crippled in a myriad of ways. But I just love that he cannot breathe out error. Yeah, he's a holy God. He is perfect in all his ways and he cannot breathe out error. And scripture is his very breath.
- [11:26]
Melissa Krueger
So, okay, so we're saying scripture's God breathed, Jesus treated as so, but so how did we actually get these words?
- [11:37]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah, that's good.
- [11:38]
Melissa Krueger
Okay, you know, do you know what I'm saying? Because I mean, look, that's a really honest question. I don't think I asked for many years of my life. I just was like, oh, that's the Bible. And I never really thought, well, how did God get the Bible to men? How do we answer that question for people who are asking?
- [11:54]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think one of the most beautiful things is throughout scripture. So first of all, it wasn't written and I'm going to go ahead and contrast it with some other religions of our day.
- [12:05]
Melissa Krueger
Oh good.
- [12:06]
Courtney Docter
So both Islam and Mormonism were a one time revelation given in secret. Both of them were one person receiving the revelation from God. So of all the religions that are based on revelation instead of discovery or enlightenment, so the religion's based on revelation. Christianity and Judaism are the two that are, they are given over the course of thousand years. And they're given, all of the key moments are very public. They're all eyewitness accounts. So Moses, when he's given the law, it's an eyewitness account. The Gospels are eyewitness accounts and they're, they're given to us by these different people. So that, and sometimes people point that out as the inconsistency in the gospels. But the reality Is it's actually verifying the fact that we are getting different people telling the same story and they, they heard it from. From different ways. And so even Mark's Gospel, Mark was not the eyewitness account, but Peter was the eyewitness account. So we get a lot of the perspective of Peter in Mark's Gospel, but the fact that these were not done in, in private or in secret, but they were done so that people could testify to the, the reality of the events that are being told actually gives a lot of validity to the received word.
- [13:37]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Absolutely. And. And you know, it helps that the New Testament is the best attested text of classical antiquity. It is the best, I mean, by.
- [13:46]
Melissa Krueger
And the most attacked and the most.
- [13:48]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Attacked, but the best attested to in its original manuscripts. I mean, by scores any other historic document, even Romans or, you know, any other, you know, not Romans, the book of the Bible, but by other historians, I mean, literally hundreds of papyrus, Papyrus, papyrus, you know, for just pieces of documents, but also scores of, you know, manuscripts and, you know, partial manuscripts and so. But more tested than any other book in antiquity. Yeah, and so we've got. Yeah, and so that's also. That lends itself to its plausibility as well as the plurality of voices speaking the same message.
- [14:33]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, exactly. And they're in. Historians are still finding manuscripts.
- [14:37]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yes.
- [14:38]
Melissa Krueger
So there's this huge basically dumpster pit in Oxyrhynchus, Egypt. And the reason they've survived is because the air temperatures and they're finding manuscripts even today.
- [14:53]
Courtney Docter
Manuscripts are.
- [14:54]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, well, and there are different types. So. So this is what is interesting. I think when you go back to the early church, the word was important from the beginning, like these written down accounts of the Scriptures. And there's even a lot of evidence that people were traveling with all four Gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John together from a really early time period. So it wasn't like, oh yeah, that guy over there wrote it and that guy over there wrote it. And now come 4th century, we're gonna sew it all together, but from an early time, especially the Gospels. Yeah, they date them all to the first century.
- [15:36]
Courtney Docter
Right, right.
- [15:37]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, exactly. Which. And then the first list of the whole New Testament. And when I say canon, I mean the books of the New Testament, the 27, those books were first listed out by a man named Origen writing on it in 250 A.D. okay, so we're still close to, to when those things were happening.
- [15:59]
Courtney Docter
Like us writing on the foundation of our country. Yes, so we're still very close to that.
- [16:03]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, yes, Exactly. So. So that just adds a lot of historical validity to what these manuscripts were saying. Whereas actually if you look at like copies of the Iliad and Odyssey, we have a lot less of those.
- [16:16]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right.
- [16:16]
Melissa Krueger
So not only what it speaks to is the importance of these books to Christians because they kept copying them, they kept writing them over and over and over again and getting them out. So, you know, that was going on.
- [16:33]
Courtney Docter
So those are the manuscripts. Those are the manuscripts they would receive Matthew and then they would write it to send it on. And so that's a second manuscript. If you wrote me a letter and I wanted to make sure that 12 people got it and I copied it 12 times. Because we couldn't photocopy and because we couldn't. It's rewritten.
- [16:49]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [16:50]
Courtney Docter
So those are the. That's why we have different manuscripts. Okay.
- [16:52]
Melissa Krueger
Just making sure. And I even think. And we can fact check this. When Paul says, make sure I travel with the scrolls, does he say scrolls and manuscripts when he asked for his cloak?
- [17:01]
Courtney Docter
Oh, yeah. I don't know.
- [17:03]
Melissa Krueger
Because it's actually a distinction between the two.
- [17:06]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
That's good.
- [17:06]
Melissa Krueger
And it shows, you know, the scrolls were the Old Testament and they were actually differentiating already a scroll in the parchments, I think, I think it's the parchment. And so those were two types.
- [17:19]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
That's good.
- [17:19]
Melissa Krueger
And the New Testament was coming in these parchments, but he wanted the scrolls that were the Old Testament. So it's interesting that this distinction was already happening.
- [17:27]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
That's really cool.
- [17:28]
Melissa Krueger
In Paul's day.
- [17:29]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I think what I find really notable about the validity and the veracity of the New Testament is this, is that when you look at the contemporaries, the historians who attest to Jesus miracles even, who were, who were not in agreement with Christianity or the principles that Jesus taught, but they attest to the truth of what he did and how it defied science. Like Josephus would say that he wrought surprising feats and so they would attest to his miracles, you know, and really attesting to the veracity of the Gospel in doing so.
- [18:05]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah, well. And that's what, you know, when we talk about the Gospels with our kids. I remember when we started to study the Gospel of John together. The thing I said to them is I asked them this question to start it. How do you tell a good lie? And okay, to tell a good lie, you don't say a lot of facts because.
- [18:24]
Courtney Docter
Because you're going to get caught.
- [18:25]
Melissa Krueger
And you keep it really short.
- [18:26]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yep.
- [18:27]
Melissa Krueger
You know, you say very little. You say Jesus was died and Rose, again, like details.
- [18:32]
Courtney Docter
You don't get a lot of details.
- [18:33]
Melissa Krueger
No.
- [18:34]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [18:34]
Melissa Krueger
And you keep. Yeah. And you don't name names. Right. And you don't name places.
- [18:39]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [18:40]
Melissa Krueger
Because you might forget. You think about. If you're going to commit murder, you're going to keep those details. Sorry, let's go there. You're going to keep details really low when you read the Gospels. I always tell people, read the Gospels, you know, why do you have to mention Rufus and why do you have to mention all these names about who carried the cross of Jesus on the way? They wanted to be fact checked.
- [19:06]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah, Right, right.
- [19:07]
Melissa Krueger
They were like, actually, you can go to the town where he lived and you can ask him.
- [19:11]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Verifiable.
- [19:12]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, you can go to. Because it doesn't even just say Simon. It says Simon of Cyrene.
- [19:18]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right? Yes.
- [19:19]
Melissa Krueger
Why? Why?
- [19:19]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Why?
- [19:20]
Courtney Docter
Why?
- [19:21]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Go ask him. Go ask him.
- [19:22]
Melissa Krueger
If you're telling a lie, don't do that.
- [19:25]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right. That's true.
- [19:26]
Melissa Krueger
You know, and so the facts that we see put forth in the New Testament help us start to think, well, this is really a dumb way to.
- [19:35]
Courtney Docter
Lie in this day, in this month, in this year, in this place. I mean, it's so historically grounded or grounded in historical settings.
- [19:45]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [19:46]
Courtney Docter
And why is that?
- [19:47]
Melissa Krueger
Well, again, because it happened.
- [19:49]
Courtney Docter
Because it happened, and because the Lord wants us to know it happened.
- [19:53]
Melissa Krueger
That's right.
- [19:54]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I mean, down to the reigns of kings. Right. You know, who's king? You can. It's. It's verifiable fact.
- [20:01]
Melissa Krueger
Yes. And we have 12 men who were sent out as apostles to testify to this. Well, here's the other thing. If you're gonna lie, do it just you, yourself and I. Because what happens if 12 people commit a crime together? Someone is gonna snitch, someone is going. They're gonna get you on a room and they're gonna put the light on you, and Courtney's gonna spill everything, you know, or whatever.
- [20:25]
Courtney Docter
I mean, well, or then if you threaten to take my life if I don't tell the TR.
- [20:31]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Story.
- [20:31]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [20:31]
Courtney Docter
Well, you better bet I'm gonna tell the truth on your story.
- [20:35]
Melissa Krueger
That's right.
- [20:35]
Courtney Docter
I mean, I'm not gonna get beheaded. I'm not going to get crucified, maybe upside down. I'm not going to. I mean, I. I'm. It's not worth it.
- [20:45]
Melissa Krueger
That's right.
- [20:45]
Courtney Docter
For me to protect your story anymore. And that's. That's what we see play out is these men lost their lives and every.
- [20:53]
Melissa Krueger
One of them pre crucifixion. They Tell us. Yeah, they hid and they all scattered.
- [21:00]
Courtney Docter
Yes.
- [21:01]
Melissa Krueger
So something happened.
- [21:03]
Courtney Docter
Something happened.
- [21:04]
Melissa Krueger
So we went from men who were like, I am not with that guy who loved him, but Peter denied him three times. How do you get that guy to then become a writer of these epistles? I mean, a church father and a lot. But die for his faith. There's something going on in this book that doesn't make sense if it's all a lie.
- [21:27]
Courtney Docter
And the other part that I really love, and I've heard people refer to it in this way before, is the way God calls his shot over and over and over again throughout. I mean, from the beginning. I mean, from even Genesis 3:15, right. That when he steps on the scene after the fall, after the sin, and he says, you know, this is what I'm gonna do. Like, I'm gonna send. It's very specific. I'm going to send an offspring. I'm going to send a child. And then it's he. The song Singular male offspring, Genesis 3:15. I'm going to send a singular male offspring who will crush the head of the enemy.
- [22:01]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
- [22:02]
Courtney Docter
And so he's just calling a shot over and over. But my favorite one is in Genesis 15, where he's talking to Abraham. This is so early in the story, and we haven't even talked about the fact that it is a story, which I think is important because it's progressive revelation, like any story is. But where he says this, starting in verse 13, he's like, know this for certain. Your offspring will be res. Again, the details. Like you were saying, your offspring will be resident aliens for 400 years in a land that does not belong to them and will be enslaved and oppressed. However, I will just.
- [22:35]
Melissa Krueger
This is my promise.
- [22:36]
Courtney Docter
This is the promise. This is my promise. This is my promise. You're going to be. Yeah, you're going to be enslaved and oppressed for 400 years. It's so specific. And then I will judge them, and afterwards they will go out with many possessions. And it just. And then he's like, but you will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. Well, all of it. Right. It's down to the. The smallest detail. It's true. That's what happened. And nobody can call their shot 400 years down the line except the one who transcends time and the one who holds it all together. And so even that throughout. Throughout the story is just such a powerful testimony to the power of our God. But the truth of his Word.
- [23:21]
Melissa Krueger
Well, so let me ask you that question. How does what you read in the Old Testament make you believe what's in the New Testament? Even more so? Because. Because I think what's really interesting, the more I read, I'm more convinced. And you know, because look, I can get that one guy could make up a story. So what we believe is that men were inspired through the Holy Spirit, carried.
- [23:49]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Along by the Spirit.
- [23:50]
Melissa Krueger
Carried along by the Spirit. The catechism says, who wrote the Bible? Holy men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. And here's the thing, I get that, like, if the three of us wanted to write a story, you could do the beginning, you could do the middle, and I could do the end. Cause we're gonna all sit down, we're gonna chit chat, here's the plot line that's gonna take and all that. They didn't talk to each other. It was hundreds and hundreds of years in between these stories, and yet they're all telling the same story. So tell me how what we see in the Old Testament. Cause it can feel like, well, those are just random stories. We've got Noah with a little ark, and we got Moses happening. How did those stories correspond with what happens in the New Testament?
- [24:33]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Oh, my goodness. There's so much beautiful overlap. And particularly I think I go to the prophets. I just love the prophets. But I think Isaiah, some 7, 800 years prior to Jesus, predicts his birth. I mean, who could do that but God? I mean, and so as you read and then. And even in his talking about the suffering servant, how he would die, he talks about his birth and he talks about his crucifixion.
- [25:01]
Melissa Krueger
Can I say something about that?
- [25:02]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yes, yes.
- [25:03]
Melissa Krueger
Crucifixion wasn't invented when Isaiah prophesied, but when you read it.
- [25:08]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yes, yes. Beyond human recognition, he's describing his crucifixion as a suffering servant. And so as, as you read, even reading critically, and I invite people read, read scripture critically, you don't have to throw your brain out the window to read it. Does, it does help to have some good rules for reading and some good practices so that you understand how to approach the various genres of scripture. You're gonna have much different rules for reading the book of Isaiah than you have for reading the Psalms. You know, there are different genres with different, you know, rules for reading. But it's just clear these, some of the predictions, particularly like that one that I'm mentioning, Isaiah predicting the birth of Christ and then also his horrible crucifixion is powerful, beautiful, and compelling, y' all.
- [26:01]
Melissa Krueger
Have used the word genre a couple of times. What do you mean by genre and how. Give me a few of the genres of scripture.
- [26:09]
Courtney Docter
Well, type of literature. And we sort of intuitively know we're going to read an email differently than we would read an instruction manual or, you know, those are different genres. Well, the thing I love about the genre or the type of literature is that there is one genre that. That rides over all of them. So at its core, the entire Bible is narrative. It is a story from beginning to end, has a main character, it has a plot line, has a glorious conclusion. It has all the parts of a good story, has an introduction where the characters and the setting are introduced. It has a conflict. The thing that's going to be. You need to be resolved. And it has a great climax or high point where the conflict is resolved, and then it has a glorious conclusion where we're given a glimpse of what the world looks like when all is finally made right again. And so it is narrative. And understanding that it's narrative helps us understand how to read it, because we read any story knowing that we are learning more about the characters as the story progresses. And so we have. We call this progressive revelation. And we know more about God at the end of the story than we knew at the beginning, which helps us be good readers, because we are going to be. We're not Abraham. Right. We can receive a commandment from Paul much in a much more direct line than we would say something God said to Abraham because of where we are in the story. But then, like you were saying, there are other genres. There's prophecy, there's poetry, there's historical narrative, there's gospel accounts, there's apocalyptic. But the reality is they all fit into the greater story. And so we intuitively know that. I love to talk about the book A Severe Mercy. It's a fabulous book written by a man named Sheldon Vanokin. It's the account of his wife and her illness. But in this narrative account, this historically accurate narrative account, he receives letters from C.S. lewis. And you read the letters in the story. Well, you don't wonder what they have to do with the story. You understand that they are actually furthering the storyline. They're adding dimension to the storyline. And so even the epistles, I didn't talk about that. But the letters in the New Testament, those are not taken out of the story, but they're part of the story. And the psalms are part of the story. And so learning to read those as such actually helps us be more faithful readers.
- [28:46]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Absolutely.
- [28:47]
Melissa Krueger
And so you have texts that are describing what is happening, and yet you have texts that are prescribing how to live. And so that can be really tricky. Right. Because so we don't look at David's actions.
- [29:00]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [29:01]
Melissa Krueger
And say, oh, I should be like David and have many wives.
- [29:04]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right, right.
- [29:05]
Melissa Krueger
You know, it's like, oh, this is actually describing, hey, when you live like this, guess what? It's not going to go very well for you.
- [29:11]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [29:11]
Melissa Krueger
So a lot of the Old Testament is just descriptive, not prescriptive.
- [29:14]
Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [29:15]
Melissa Krueger
Where a lot of what we have in Paul's letters. Which makes sense.
- [29:18]
Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [29:18]
Melissa Krueger
He's a church father writing to churches, telling them, hey, this is what lifelike by the Spirit looks like. So he's writing differently. So it does look different, you know.
- [29:28]
Courtney Docter
I mean, but he's even grounding all of those in the rest of the story that's come before. He's explaining what Jesus came and did in light of the fulfillment of all the things in the Old Testament.
- [29:40]
Melissa Krueger
Testament, yes.
- [29:41]
Courtney Docter
Not just. It's not like you can pick up the story. I tell people all the time, the story did not begin in a manger and the story did not begin at the cross. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:49]
Melissa Krueger
So if someone is coming into this story and they're like, I hear what you're saying. I'm not sure I. I'm not sure I believe. What if someone is having doubts about the Bible? Maybe they believe. Well, if it's true, I don't like that. God. Because there's. Look, there are hard stories in the Bible.
- [30:11]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Sure.
- [30:11]
Melissa Krueger
Like, we can talk about, you know, it's this great story and things. But in that story, you get really uncomfortable when I read certain parts and I get in them. And then, you know, you get to a Leviticus and there is a lot of blood being shed. And I'm like, what's happening? And we start knowing, hey, that scapegoat that they're talking about in Leviticus, it's going to play a role. You know, we start seeing it. What do you say to someone who's just like, I don't like this book. I don't like how it's telling me to live. It doesn't seem relevant. How do we talk with people who are doubting whether this ancient book has any place in their lives?
- [30:51]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I think a lot of the disenfranchisement can be. I don't really understand what I'm reading. And so reading along with someone is a great way to do that so that they can actually see how it is active in your life and then just inviting people to give. You know, I usually invite people to give, particularly if you're a skeptic about Scripture. Give the gospel a read. Give. Pick a gospel, give it a read. And I usually give people John, but give the gospel a read. And then let's, let's, let's meet and chat. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about where those sticking points are for you.
- [31:30]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
- [31:30]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And so those are some practical things that I do.
- [31:33]
Melissa Krueger
That's really good.
- [31:34]
Courtney Docter
And I would say that to remind anybody listening that's struggling with doubt that your doubt does not mean you're an unbeliever.
- [31:41]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
No.
- [31:42]
Courtney Docter
Your doubt. Actually, I know I'm walking with somebody right now who, who desperately hates the doubt and wants to believe. And I'm like, unbelievers. Don't want to. Don't want to believe. Don't want this to be easy. And so, so look at how Jesus responded to Thomas. He had doubts. And Jesus didn't say, get away from me. He said, come closer, come closer. Let me, let me walk with you through this. And so don't let your doubts be something that either your doubts in the word of God make you doubt the fact whether or not you're an actual believer or not. And so, so draw near, wrestle through the doubts. I think what you said, Vanessa, in the Word and with God, we have examples of people saying, I believe, help my unbelief. And I think that's a posture that we go through life with. I believe. Help me. Help me believe more. Help me understand more and draw near to the word of God. Let it. We know experientially and by faith, we know that the Word of God is living and active and it will do the work itself. And so God and his Word are so much bigger than our doubts and our questions and our fears. And so come to the Word and, and let it do what only it can do.
- [33:01]
Melissa Krueger
That's right. Yeah, that's right. I do think there's a tendency when we doubt to start reading everything that feeds our doubt.
- [33:08]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Melissa Krueger
You know, because we want to make sure. And let's be honest, we all want to make sure we're not brainwashed. I don't know. I think, I think we've all woken up one day and said, I'm kind of spending my whole life on this. Is it worth. Is this right? Because that is exactly what God's word asks you to do, Right?
- [33:28]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yes.
- [33:28]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [33:28]
Melissa Krueger
I mean, Jesus said, you know, the wise man heard These words. And he built his home on this. And, you know, when the winds and rain came, the house stood firm. Okay. So, you know, whoever hears my words and does these things puts them into practice. He's like that wise man. He is actually asking us. He's not asking just to intellectually ascend. He is asking us to build our whole life on his whole. I always want to say it's really good to question before you start building. I mean, that's not a bad thing. All the costs, right? Yeah. And so my thing is always read it, which is what you were both saying. Read it and read it thoughtfully and ask good questions, and read it with someone so you can ask those questions. And here's what I believe. You'll see. I believe you're gonna see it's beautiful. That's the first thing I think you're gonna look at it, and you're gonna start seeing this. This harmony that we talked about. So beauty, harmony, and power. It's beautiful in that it does seem to explain the way the world works. Huh? This is why sin's here. It answers that question. I sin. It answers that question. I desperately know. I don't. I want to live differently. I know there's a better story out there. It points you to a story. So there's something beautiful in what it's pointing to, and yet it's uniform somehow. That, to me, is the miracle of scripture. You know, it's talking about things way back here in Exodus that really go with what Jesus is saying, you know, thousands of years later and then. But the main thing I always say is it's powerful. It's the most dangerous book you can read. And that's exactly why Satan doesn't want you to read it. It is completely dangerous because it will change your life, you know, and it has the power to convict, you know, to divide. It has power that my words don't have, that this. Our words on this podcast don't have. And so it really is reading is believing rather than seeing is believing. And so I always encourage people, don't sit in your doubts and just let them fester. Actually read the book and, you know, read it. Take everything you got at it.
- [35:52]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. And bring them to the Lord. One of the things with my children in particular, when they've had crises of faith, when they've said, I'm not sure I believe this because. And I can remember my own crisis of faith, everything that I have is what I have received from someone else's beliefs. Do I really believe this? If I grew up in another family. Would this be my belief system? And so when my children came to me with those questions, what I would say to them was, good, now you're about to make your faith your own now, because here's the thing, the Lord is able to stand up to your questions. The veracity. I'm so certain of the veracity of Scripture that you can road test it. It's good. It's good. And so when you test it now, you're putting yourself in a position to see that the Lord is exactly who he says he is. And so it's a good question.
- [36:47]
Melissa Krueger
That's good.
- [36:48]
Courtney Docter
And that he wants to be known. It is his self revelation, meaning we do not discover God. He reveals himself. He wants to be known. And he has said, here, give you. I'm going to give you my word so that you can know me.
- [37:05]
Melissa Krueger
So that's the prayer. Open the eyes of my heart. I mean, open the eyes of my heart. Yeah, that I may see you. If this is true. I mean, if it's true, then you're actually praying to a real God. If it's true, will you open my heart so I can see the wondrous things in your law?
- [37:21]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right.
- [37:21]
Melissa Krueger
You know, we can start with that prayer. If someone is doubting, you know, we say start with scripture, actually read it. Read it with a friend. Talk to your pastor about it. Are there any books you point people to that really can kind of help? There are different types of doubt, you know, so some are doubts about, hey, my life hasn't gone the way I thought it would and so now I just trust what's here. Yeah. Are there any books that you point people to? But some are doubts about the Scriptures themselves, some are doubts about is Christianity good for the world? You know, are there any books that y' all like to recommend to people?
- [37:56]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
One that I've recommended lately has been reading the Bible for all it's worth. That's been a.
- [38:02]
Courtney Docter
Is that Doug Steward and Gordon Fee?
- [38:04]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:06]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think what ended up helping me the most, not necessarily doubt, is not something that I have struggled a lot with. And I will say the other grandparent of one of my grandchildren one time prayed for him and he said, please give this child faith early and make it easy. And I love that. I've been praying that ever since because what a gift that would be to have easy faith. And in some ways the Lord has given that to me. But. But at one thing he's done to increase my trust in His Word is really show Me, the consistency of the story and the way it does play out. And so any of those books I love, I always want to say Bruno Mars, but it's Chris Bruno and his 16 words. And, you know, 16 words or 16 verses.
- [38:51]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Those are slightly different or whatever.
- [38:52]
Courtney Docter
Exactly, exactly. Nancy Guthrie has done great work in biblical theology. I've written a book called From Garden to Glory. Elizabeth Woodson has written a Bible says study from beginning to forever. There are different places that we can. We can understand the story. But that has been something that has been really helpful for me.
- [39:13]
Melissa Krueger
Those are good. So if you want to understand what is the story of the Bible, those are great resources. And it sounds like. What was the one you said?
- [39:22]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Reading the Bible for all it's worth.
- [39:23]
Melissa Krueger
And what's that one getting at? Primarily, if someone, you know, it gets.
- [39:27]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Into the genres and it gets into how to read.
- [39:30]
Melissa Krueger
Excellent, excellent. And if you're looking for books that might help you understand the formation of the canon and all that, I actually recommend, on a lay level, my husband's book, Surviving Religion 101. It sounds like it's for college students, but it's. That's what he wrote it for. But it's really. It's just a lay level explanation of a lot of the questions we've been talking about here.
- [39:52]
Courtney Docter
And even his website.
- [39:53]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, that's right. Yes. Cannon fodder.
- [39:56]
Courtney Docter
Maybe it's academic, but, you know.
- [39:58]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah, but he.
- [39:59]
Courtney Docter
He's pretty good.
- [40:00]
Melissa Krueger
He's pretty good at bringing it down to my level.
- [40:03]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, that's his. That is. That is Mike Krueger's specialty.
- [40:06]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, yes, yes, that's right.
- [40:08]
Courtney Docter
So it's. It's a good place.
- [40:10]
Melissa Krueger
I married someone who could answer all my questions because I had a lot of them.
- [40:15]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Convenient for you.
- [40:16]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But. But I think it is really helpful to know. Here's. Here's one thing. He always says it's actually okay that there are questions and doubts out there, and he always just wants to reassure people, especially younger people. There are people who have done the research and there really are answers. No one's hiding it. There really are answers out there and people want to help, whereas other traditions, I think they are hiding, I mean, things that aren't Christianity. They don't want to talk about where their books came from, whereas Christians really do, because they're pretty secure in the historical accuracy of these texts. The texts that we have are the ones that were written in the first century and things like that. But all of these things play a part of the New Testament.
- [41:07]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
They do. And I'm going to say, and I know that this could be difficult, particularly if you have doubts, but just even a heart posture when you're approaching the text, if you could try to approach it, suspending the disbelief for just a bit. If you could try to cooperatively read with the reader, with the, with the, with the writer. And. And then here's the thing. Even if you don't believe God is real, if you can say God, if you are.
- [41:30]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [41:31]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Would you show me?
- [41:32]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:34]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I just think that that's a great place to start.
- [41:36]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, he loves to answer that.
- [41:37]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah, it's a great place to start.
- [41:39]
Melissa Krueger
I think that we can all say the Word has been such an impact in all of our lives, not just in knowing God, but walking with him every day. It's not something, it's not just this intellectual. This is gonna teach me who God is. This is actually relationally the way we get to meet with God because the Word is living and active. So it's not like other books. You know, if you read a historical book about Abe Lincoln, it's not living and active, but the Word actually says it's living and active. We're actually getting to meet with God in this book. He's coming to meet with us. He's still speaking through his Word to us each day. And so that's the invitation of God's Word. And so we hope that you'll take that invitation. It's been such a great conversation. Thanks for going into these deep places with us and thanks for joining us for the deep dish and. Oh, I haven't asked yet our deep dish question for the day. So, Vanessa, what do I have for you? We just spent this episode talking about the reliability of the Bible, which has lots of good advice, but we have also received good advice from others. So let me ask you this. Is there any piece of non spiritual advice that you've received from someone else that you go back to on a regular basis? You're not. That was helpful.
- [43:00]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. Yeah. I'm reading Howard Thurman right now and he's. He's rocking my world. But one of the things that he says that I think is really good wisdom, he says, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive and go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.
- [43:20]
Melissa Krueger
Say that again. You got to say that again.
- [43:22]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
He says, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. And as you're talking about scripture is alive and active. That scripture is alive and active. And it lives in me and it has made me alive. And so for those of you who are having those doubts, know that it is alive and active, but it is alive in me. And I have committed my life to this word.
- [43:52]
Courtney Docter
Word.
- [43:53]
Melissa Krueger
That's right.
- [43:53]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And I, I, I intend to let it burn its way out of me.
- [43:57]
Melissa Krueger
Amen.
- [43:58]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
You know, all the days of my life.
- [44:00]
Melissa Krueger
Amen. And maybe that's all of our testimony. We're like those 12 disciples.
- [44:04]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah.
- [44:05]
Melissa Krueger
And we say this is worth our lives. And we'll run forward in that and keep having, keep having Deep Dish conversations over Deep Dish Pizza.
- [44:15]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And we hope the only way to have.
- [44:19]
Melissa Krueger
Exactly. So thanks for joining us. We hope you'll have deep conversations in your own life. Come and talk to us, interact with us. If you want to find some of these books, we'll have them listed in Show Notes. We'd love to hear more from you all. Wherever you're listening, come join us. And we hope you'll join us next time for the Deep Dish.
- [44:39]
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.