← The Deep Dish
The Deep Dish
Your Church Needs You to Show Up
00:36:03
Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor talk with Vanessa Hawkins about the vital and beautiful role church should have in the life of every Christian.
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- [00:00]
Courtney Docter
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- [01:27]
Melissa Krueger
I'm not a Lone Ranger Christian. I mean there just aren't it's impossible because when we abide in Jesus, if he's the vine, we're connected to everyone else who's abiding in Him. We have to show up physically and that's that's the church. It's just the people of God.
- [01:50]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast where we have deep conversations about deep truth truths. I'm Courtney Docter. I'm here with my co host and friend Melissa Krueger, and we are delighted to be joined again by Dr. Vanessa K. Hawkins. Vanessa is the Director of Community Life at Redeemer Lincoln Square Church in New York City. And that is exactly what we're going to be talking about today is the local church. We have all actually served on staff in the local church at different times times in our in our callings and even the Gospel Coalition, the ministry. We say we are a ministry from the church and for the church. And so we love the local church, but we want to talk about today is why we think every believer should love the local church. So Vanessa, at what point? Because I had a, I had a time in my life where it, it dawned on me or, or my love of the local church grew. So when was that for you? When did you understand that, the importance and the essential nature of the local church?
- [02:55]
Unknown
Yeah, I think I've always loved the local church because I grew up in it. But I've loved it for different reasons. And I think as a kid I grew up in a very rural church out in the middle of a cotton field. It was very rural, but it was a small family church. And I loved it because it was the meeting place where I got to see my favorite people. You know, it was just, it was just a great place and some great meals got served there and some good singing happened there. And my family was a large family, so we were a significant part of that little church. We all had jobs and inside the church, but we also had jobs is where I learned how to mow the lawn. My family was responsible for caring for the lawn at the church. And so it was very much a meeting place and it was like a, it was the family home that we got to take care of. And so I think that's how I thought about the church as a kid. And then at some point the church became more than just individuals to me, but it became people who were connected and indwelled by the spirit of God and they were less individuals and more. There was a cosmic unity that I understood more of. And I think now though, as a 51 year old woman, I am more concerned about the people coming after me in the church, particularly the young women who are coming after me. And there's just a different interest.
- [04:26]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And I love that you didn't talk about, you know, like it was, it wasn't necessarily. You didn't lead with talking about the sermon or talking about. You talked about mowing the yard and, or the lawn of the church and showing up and seeing people. And Vanessa and I were just recently in Kenya together and I remember after the conference for the lunch, we walked out and all the women were having lunch out on the lawn and Vanessa looked at me and she said, this feels like my childhood home. And there was a fellowship and a joy and there were people just out there and they were eating and talking and it really was beautiful. So we talk about this idea of showing up. Right.
- [05:04]
Melissa Krueger
The importance, I think it means that yeah, we are physically present in the lives of others. So there is this in some sense, I mean, I think we can talk about. There's the church universal, you know, so in some sense, we are connected to more than what we are physically connected to. Right. Because there is one church that is the Bride of Christ. And so that spans history, that spans every tongue, tribe, and nation. You know, we know are all going to be there as the Bride of Christ, but then we all believe that we should be part of a church locally. And so that does. That means being an actual part where I can use my gifts and other people can share their gifts and that there is this. I'm not a lone ranger Christian. I mean, there just aren't. It's impossible. Because when we abide in Jesus, if he's the vine, we're connected to everyone else who's abiding in him. There's no ability to really just say, oh, it's just about me and Jesus. You know, it. We have to show up physically. And that's. That's the church. It's just the people of God.
- [06:13]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. And showing up also, for me, I know it's really easy to just think, well, checklist. I walked in the door, I sat through the service, and then I walked out the door. I showed up. But was I really showing up? You know, is there more to it? Do I stand and have conversations with people? Am I known? Am I willing to be known? Am I showing up to the things that are outside of that one hour a week or two hours a week, depending on what church we're in? Right, right, exactly. We just experienced that, that whole idea of showing up. And I think, like, even Vanessa, your title as director of community life. So what? How does that play into this? This may be a bigger definition of showing up other than just walking in the door for the one hour a week.
- [06:58]
Unknown
Yeah. And I will go back even to the one hour a week, though, per week. I think about times when I have shown up at the church empty. I think about times when I've shown up needy, particularly. I can remember just as a young mom, just showing up super needy. I remember one Sunday in particular, I sat through the message and literally wrestled through the message because I had three girls with me. None of them were in children's church. And I didn't hear a word preached from the pulpit. Didn't hear it because I was too busy wrestling kids. And at the end of the sermon, there's this older lady who came up to me and said, baby, you're doing a great job. Keep going. It'll get better. And that's what I got out of church that day, was her encouragement. And then there have been other days when I've had to show up for other people in a similar way. And so we show up for each other in that. And so now to answer the second part of your question, as director of community life, I get to create these spaces by the grace of God and by his kindness of where people can be known, loved and cared for. You know, we're growing together in the word of God, growing in the likeness of the Lord, knowledge of the Lord until we see the Lord, affections for the Lord and so all of those things, but also growing in deep community. And so it's what JT English in his book Deep Discipleship, it's both, he, he talks about the one handed nature of, you know, kind of how people tend to one or the other. Either we're just really theological groups and we are just, we, we grow in theology, but we're not much, or we're growing in community, but it's kind of shallow because there's no real substance. And, but deep discipleship is where the two of those meet. And so that's what we're, that's what we strive to do. We strive to be these places of learning and community and growing in the knowledge of the Lord in that way and in love for each, deep love for each other.
- [08:59]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Oh, that's fantastic. Well, even at that, you're getting at the difference between showing up in your neighborhood and like knowing that you need community, right? That's a human, that's something we share as just human beings, that we need community. But what you're saying is the church, we don't, we can't just say, well, I'm really involved in my community center. I am very involved in my neighborhood or at my children's school. And so that is actually satisfying that need in me. So what's the difference? What are we saying here? Why are we saying that the church is the place that we need to show up?
- [09:35]
Melissa Krueger
Well, and one thing I was just thinking about, in comparison to those type of places, they're all seasonal in some sense. Like, oh, you know, even that community center, I mean to be quite honest, they're normally age segmented, right? At some level, or you're at your child's school, you know, that's all segmented. Or you know, even your neighborhoods, you tend to be in a, this neighborhood when you're young, this neighborhood in midlife or whatever. Whereas the church is a place you can show up all your life. It's not. It's not season of life dependent, you know, And. And I love, you know, the verse in Isaiah where it says, he sets the lonely in families. Like it really is meant to be a family. So what I love about showing up in the life of the church is I now have grandmothers, I have mothers, I have sisters, I have daughters, I have fathers, I have more uncles, you know, for my kids, I have more children, many more children than my biological children. Like, this is a place of family. And I think too often we think of it as a intellectual exercise, maybe, or we think of it as a. Oh, I'm gonna go get my juice for the week. Yeah. My spiritual workout for the week or whatever, rather than. No, it's much more than that. And we've actually often lessened what it really is. And I think we all felt this, to be quite honest, during COVID Yeah. You know, when a lot of us couldn't worship physically with others, we realized, oh, it's not enough. Right. It is not enough. I want to be physically present with my brothers and sisters and worship together. And there's something just beautiful about singing together the truths. And it matters that I'm not alone in my. Trust me. Everybody would rather hear a collective voice than my voice, but there's something that it does to my soul when you realize I'm not alone.
- [11:40]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Oh, that first time that we gathered corporately again after Covid, and we were singing together, and it's meant to be that. It was so emotional for me, but it's meant to be that way, because I am meant to look around while I'm singing some theological truth or I'm hearing it preached from the pulpit, and I look over and I see my friend Vanessa, and I know what's going on in your life. And so I hear those words that I'm singing through my experience and through your experience, and then I look over and I see Melissa, and I see it in the. In a different way than I would if you guys hadn't shown up.
- [12:13]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [12:14]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
So. So your presence matters for me, and my presence matters absolutely for you. But, Melissa, I love how you just said that the church is like a family, but scripture talks about it like that. So scripture uses a couple different analogies, a couple different word pictures for helping us understand what. What the church is meant to be. Not just the. The building, but the people. And so, Vanessa, what are some other ways that scripture talks about the church?
- [12:39]
Unknown
I do love the metaphor of family. I mean, just over and over Again, it goes back to that, but even beyond family, narrowing that down to a body, a body with many members and members not like members of a club, but members. Like your arm is a member of your body. You know, that's true.
- [12:56]
Melissa Krueger
Because a member of a club, you can disposable, you can dispose of. Yeah, but please don't take my pinky.
- [13:02]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I need that. I need that. And so I love the beauty with which the Scriptures continually drive home our need for one another, our interdependence, and the beauty of us being together, being whole.
- [13:18]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Well, I know I. I talk with a lot of people that. That are following Jesus and don't really see the essential or necessary nature of showing up, of being involved in the life of the church, everything we're talking about. And I remember hearing when I was in seminary, a quote from Cyprian, one of our church fathers, that he said that you cannot have God as your father without having the church as your mother. And when you stop and think about that, and you think about what a mother traditionally does. So there's nourishment, there's feeding, there's comfort, there's discipline. There's all these things that. It's the hands and feet, it's the body of Christ, it's the bride of Christ, but it's the body of Christ. And so the necessity of knowing Christ through the means that he's established, you know, he is. He is coming back for his church. So we want to be a part of that thing that he's coming back for. And it really highlights and elevates the necessity of our commitment to the local church. What, you know, Melissa, what would you. I mean, you've been. You've loved the local church for a long time, and it's deep in you. And so how would you, like, kind of flesh out that you really can't have God as your father without having the church as your mother? Like, what would you. How would you respond to that?
- [14:54]
Melissa Krueger
Here's the thing. I think in some ways it can sound like this. Oh, you have to be in the church, as though it's a bad thing. And actually what that quote is pointing to is the good of it. Like, it'd be like saying, well, you have to have a mother and a father, right? Okay, well, that's actually a really good thing to have a mother and father. Like, that's what we would like, you know, for. To. To have. And the reality is we. God has given us a place because we were created in his image and just you know, when Adam. What. What was the very first. Not good.
- [15:31]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah, that he was alone.
- [15:33]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, that he was alone. And so he created what he went through. All the animals, there were none like him. You know, all these ones come. Nobody can be a partner for, you know, and it's this. It's this sense of loss because God is a trinitarian God. And so he created us in that image that we need fellowship with one another. And so the reality is this isn't something that makes us. It does. It does help us become holy, but it does. It's not something to check off on our list of things like, oh, I'm supposed to do this because now God will be pleased with me.
- [16:07]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right.
- [16:08]
Melissa Krueger
It's actually his gift to us, you know, as, we need a mom, and we get that comfort and we find that place of belonging and we find that support. That's what the church is meant to do for us, and we need it.
- [16:22]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Well, yeah. And even just that, I had such a low view of church for so long, and it was almost like waking up on Sunday mornings. That's when we would make the decision on whether or not we were going to go to church that day. Because it was just week by week. And if there was nothing, I mean, as a child, it was just like, well, I mean, maybe we'd rather go get brunch. Maybe we would rather go play tennis. I don't know. Or maybe, yeah, let's go to church this morning, get dressed. And so that idea of it being optional is also part of people thinking that it doesn't matter if I'm there or not. And I know even just in the last few weeks, I had gotten home really late on a Saturday night, and I thought, you know what? I probably could just watch from. You know, I could watch it online today. And I thought, no, I need to be there. And it turned out that I actually did need to be there for some relational dynamics and some things going on. And I was just like, it was a rebuke from the Lord. Like, this actually is not an optional thing because your presence matters, and their presence matters.
- [17:31]
Unknown
I think even in your comment about the. The church being our mother, God being the father, it speaks to the inextricable tie that the church is because we're reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ, who is the head of the church. And so there is an inextricable tie, you know, and there is something that is so vital that we need from the church that keeps us connected to God. It keeps us in fellowship that keeps the health of the relationship. And so I think that that is beautiful. It could never be optional. But I also think about in Hebrews, where we see Jesus himself singing amongst the congregation his love for the church. We see that in a million different ways. Just even how he depicts the church as his bride and how we're living stones, but all of the ways that he animates the life of the church and that how he is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters, but he sings among the corpor body of the church. And so there is a beauty of seeing Christ in the church, and that's the Christ who reconciles us to the Father. It's an inextricable tie, and it's so vital.
- [18:43]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. Even in Revelation, where he's saying the seven churches or the seven lampstands. And where is he? He's standing in the middle, and he says to each of them, I know you. I'm paying attention. And these are. So instead of this being the church universal, this is the specific local church. And he commends what they're doing. Well, and then there's a rebuke in there, too. But it's this intimate knowledge of the local church. He loves the local church.
- [19:13]
Unknown
We are so thankful for our sponsor, Crossway. And one of the things that I love that Crossway produces so well are Bible studies. They want to get people in God's word. And this study that we get to talk about a little bit today, Behold and Believe, a Bible study on the I am statements of Jesus. This is by my good friend Joanna Kimbrell and Courtney Docter, both of whom are good friends. And they created this resource, really, for one of our TGC conferences as we studied the I am statements. But they do such a wonderful job of walking women through each of John's I am statements that are in the book the Gospel of John. And what I love about this study is it's this introduction to Jesus. If you want to know who is Jesus, this is a Bible study that takes you by the hand. And they're so warm and relational in how they write. It takes you by the hand, and it leads you into the text. And I think it's just this wonderful study that helps you just see, who did Jesus say he was? Courtney, can you tell us a little bit more about why y' all wrote it, what you were so excited about with this Bible study?
- [20:27]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Well, it was such a privilege to. To take Jesus at his own word and. And ask the question, who do you say you are? Jesus. And he answers us. And John recorded it for us. And so it was just a privilege to look at those seven, seven statements. I am the bread of life. I am the light of the world. I am the door, the. The good shepherd, the resurrection and the life, the way, the truth and the life, and the true vine. And to see how he, how he explains from different vantage points just exactly what he came to do, what he accomplished, and who we are when we're united to him. And so it was, it was just a joy. And it was a joy to do it with Joanna.
- [21:08]
Unknown
It's such a great resource. And the other thing that's great about it is if you've got a friend who's wondering who Jesus is, this is a great study to do with them. So I just encourage you pick up a copy of Beholden Believe, Behold Jesus, Believe in him. Share him with someone else. You can pick up a copy of that wherever books are sold or you can visit Crossway.org to find this book. It's a great resource. Highly encourage it. And you can get a copy and study with a friend.
- [21:37]
Melissa Krueger
So what would you all say to a young woman? Because you've both done local ministry for a lot of years and, and we've all heard this before. What would you say to a young woman who's like, yeah, I just don't think I need the church. You know, I'm, I'm pretty good. I'm doing fine.
- [21:53]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I spend my Sunday mornings walking in nature and thinking about God and talking to him, but I don't need the church.
- [22:00]
Unknown
Yes.
- [22:01]
Yeah, Yeah, I, I just have a lot of questions because sometimes I hear it stated even a little harder. I mean that I, I love the church. I just. I mean, I love Jesus. I just don't want anything to do with his church. And so to. Well, one, I wanna understand what's under that. I've got lots of questions about the pain and the disenfranchisement of that. And so it's helpful to ask lots of questions in those types of situations, but also to help them see Christ's delight in her as imperfect as she is. She is his bride. But just helping people to understand his delight, because even in that, I can help them to also see his delight in you.
- [22:42]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Well, and I like that, that you're able to move towards somebody in their pain because the reality is the church is a wounded sometimes, you know, you were. I've heard you tell a story before about, you know, a man getting married and, and somebody saying that his bride was, you Know, really ugly and like not nice and really messed up. But the whole point was they were pointing towards the bride of Christ, right? And it's so true because we are not a beautiful, radiant, spotless bride.
- [23:19]
Unknown
And yet he loves us.
- [23:20]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And yet he loves us. But the reality is that brokenness where we are in redemptive history, the church can be a painful place. The church has hurt people, those with it, not the church itself, but those within the church that are not. I mean, scripture calls them bad shepherds, right? And God, God condemns them for that. And yet the reality is we know people who have been hurt by the church. And so I know one of the things that we're trying to do, even in this podcast we're hoping to do, is to remind people of the beauty of what God intended and what it's supposed to be and how we play a part in, in the health and the vibrancy of the church. And so what would you say to someone listening who doesn't have a high view of the church, might have been hurt by the church? How would you encourage her to come back to the local church and invest in it and be present and be healed, be in a place where she can receive what the church is supposed to be?
- [24:36]
Unknown
Well, one, I've apologized on behalf of the church countless numbers of times because it is real. It is very real. The church is full of broken people and hurt people, hurt people. And we are all pressing, some of us more than others, towards the mark of Christ. And in the pressing, we hurt people. We just do. And so, so one of those things is I apologize and try to set right expectation that the church is a hospital for the sick and not a place for those who are glorified. And so just trying to set right expectations. But also I have some spaces, like I have particular groups where I know people will get a certain level of care. And so I try to put them in spaces where I know they'll be cared for one or, you know, I try to care for them individually sometimes when that's needed until they're at a place where they can trust again, you know, and so, but you know, I, I am, I am the church too. And so if you're saying you don't trust the church, you know, perhaps I can, you know, help with that one on one.
- [25:47]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Do you remember the church? There was a church in St. Louis that, the marquee out front, we were driving down the road and it said, we love hurting people. Well, you can also read that we love hurting people and the irony of that, I was like, I know what you're trying to say. Like, we love. If you're hurting, we love you come in here. But we also love hurting people. And I thought, wow, the irony of.
- [26:11]
Unknown
What you're saying, is that action or is that descriptive?
- [26:14]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Exactly.
- [26:15]
Unknown
Clarify how.
- [26:16]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
How is this playing out in your church? But there is that reality that we do hurt people. I love. There's a. There's a little ditty that I've quoted so many times, but it's to live above with the saints I love. Well, that will be bliss and glory. But to live below with the saints, I know. Well, that is another story, and I love it because what it does is it reminds us that there is a day coming when the church will be glorified. That's what you were talking about. And the church will be perfected. And it tells us that he is going to clothe us in garments of white. This pure, radiant. Like, that's who we are going to be one day. Not just individually, but as the bride of Christ, corporately.
- [26:56]
Unknown
I do very much love pointing people to. I mean, in particular, as you're talking about the coming church, it is helpful to point people to. It won't always be this way. You were hurt by the church, you know, and we're all moving to a place, you know, it won't always be this way. I love John, I think in one John, where he talks to the saints and he says, beloved, I don't know what we shall be, but we will be just like him, for we'll see him as he is. And so someday the church is going to look like that. But until then, until then, we're a work in progress. And so helping people to see, you know, beyond to, you know, where we're moving, but also to understand where we are in the story that we are broken messes, you know.
- [27:42]
Melissa Krueger
And I would say, though, even in the midst of that, yes, we're looking forward. But I'll never forget what our friend Jackie Hill Perry said one time. We were talking about that. This. And she said, what did God use to heal my church? Hurt the church.
- [27:57]
Unknown
Yeah, the church. That's beautiful.
- [27:58]
Melissa Krueger
So. So the reality is, yes, you know, there are. And I think it's helpful to distinguish between, yes, there are bad shepherds, but there are also just other sinners. So, you know, there are bad shepherds out there that we have to be on our guard against. And here's the thing. Paul's not surprised by that. So, like, when that happens in our churches, Sometimes I think we wonder, does that mean it's God true, what's going on? But you know what? The scriptures actually warn us that they're going to be there. You know, Paul, Paul said they're going to be there. So the fact that. And that was the early church, you know, and, and he still had to deal with that, but he still loved the church. What did he do? Everywhere he went, he planted churches because he knew it was the hope and the language that we see in his letters. Like when I think about his letter to the Ephesians, it's blessed be the God of our Father who has blessed us, us with every spiritual blessing in Christ, even as he chose us in Christ before the foundation, that we might be holy and blameless before him, that it's all this we language, like there, you know, he's just constantly pointing to we belong.
- [29:12]
Unknown
Yes.
- [29:13]
Melissa Krueger
And so it's not going to go well for us, you know, in a spiritual sense, to not live our life in the community of the church. We need each other. It's vital. It's where we, you know, we haven't talked about this. I mean, it's where we have a family meal. Yeah. I mean, those things matter. Yeah, yeah. That we, we share communion together in a. In a rich sense. And what are we always hoping for? That day he will return and we will eat it together in his kingdom. So we're looking forward, but in the middle of this journey, it matters that we have each other.
- [29:49]
Unknown
It does matter that we have each other. And I think for me, just from the vantage point of training leaders, one of the things I like to train leaders in, well, one is just how to have good discussions and so how to have this hospitality to create space for people to wrestle with truth, but also good conflict management. How do you do that? Because if you're in a family, if you're up close, and personally, if you're growing, conflicts happen and so to not be surprised when these things happen, as James would say, but to actually have some good skills by which you were able to benefit, move through the conflict to a place of greater understanding and a less fragile unity, but a more robust unity before the conflict. And so, so I do think as a, as a person who, who trains leaders, I'm thinking to that end as well, how do I upstream, help people to kind of help prevent some church hurt? By training, giving leaders some tools to help have good discussions and move people towards a more robust. More robust unity.
- [30:51]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
That's great. Okay, well, I am going to ask two questions A little bit rapid fire as we wrap up before I ask my final deep dish question, but I want to. Let's end on a note that is reflecting the beauty of Christ. When tell of a time that the church has showed up for you, that the church has been. And how is that one of the most powerful witnesses we have to a watching world?
- [31:14]
Unknown
Oh, I mean, countless ways, I think when my children were small, I used to call the church the village because they knew where my kids were. But when my. When my children became young adults, they are right now. My daughter will call Craig doctor, you know, because, you know, she loves him and she trusts him because he's been her pastor, you know, and so, you know, there's that. But then there's this beautiful memory that I have of when I was about to move away. My husband and my family and I were about to move away from St. Louis, Missouri, and the church showed up early morning. We came out to leave to get in the car, everything packed up. We were about to go. And they're everywhere. It's like a huge tailgate. It's coffee, it's bagels. They're handing me breakfast. We're taking pictures on the lawn. And it was just the most beautiful memory of the church showing up. And so I've got lots of ways that the church has shown up. Yes, we're broken, but yes, we're beautiful.
- [32:17]
Melissa Krueger
I know. I wonder how many casserole dishes I have in my kitchen that don't belong to me. You should definitely, if you bring me a meal replacement, please write your name on the bottom of the Pyrex dish because it might not get back to you, but it's that type of care. But actually, what's been interesting for me, we have lived overseas at different points, and this speaks a little bit more to the church universal. But it was still the church embodied in those particular places. And what I remember distinctly is coming with nothing. You know, like, when we moved to Scotland, we moved with four suitcases places. And even when we came another time when we lived, you know, in Cambridge, we came with maybe a few more than that, and we had three kids. But I wrote, here's what I remember the church doing. All of a sudden there were bikes for my kids to ride because they knew, oh, you're only gonna be here a little while, don't you don't want to buy those. Let me just hear some bikes for you guys to borrow for the time you're here. Yeah, I mean, it was like, oh, God's people are everywhere. And they're all into. And I can remember our first church service in Cambridge. We go to church and we don't know anyone. We're sitting there and. I don't know, somehow I guess we stood out. They must be American. I'm not sure. Or maybe. Or maybe we even didn't. Couple came up to us, we started talking. They had us over for lunch that day.
- [33:39]
Unknown
Wow.
- [33:39]
Melissa Krueger
And, you know, I can think about so many times, and especially when you are living far from anyone who you're biologically related to, to just all of a sudden feel at home. Like, I can remember the prime family when we lived in Scotland. Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, they had us to their home and invited us into their family. And it just, you know, it was this wonderful picture of. Yeah, I don't have any physical family around right now, but God does.
- [34:09]
Unknown
I know what that's like. Yeah, that's amazing.
- [34:11]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
- [34:12]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [34:12]
Melissa Krueger
It was a sense of belonging while I wasn't even in a country that I knew well.
- [34:16]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And it's. So if you've been in the church or around the church for a while, those, you know, the Pyrex dishes, casseroles, the parties on the lawn, they're not. They're not unexpected sometimes, right? They're. They're kind of like, of course, this is what we do. But I remember taking a meal to an unbelieving neighbor in St. Louis. And I mean, she was like, what are you doing? And it was. She had never experienced somebody just bringing a meal over. And so I think we forget the beauty of caring for other people, how it nourishes and nurtures. And it is a. It is a powerful witness to the watching world. I mean, by your love for one another, they will know that you are my disciples. And so it is. It is a visible, tangible way of. Of showing the love of Christ to each other and so. And then to others. Well, I also want to ask. The second question that I wanted to ask was if you have experienced church hurt or you have a lower view of church, what are some resources we could recommend? So I'm thinking specifically our friend Megan Hill wrote Sighing on Sundays.
- [35:23]
Melissa Krueger
So good.
- [35:24]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
So good. If Sundays are a difficult place for you right now and yet you're still wanting, or you are now convinced that your showing up matters. That's a fantastic book to read. What are some things that have. That have ministered to you and increased your understanding and love of the local church?
- [35:44]
Melissa Krueger
You know, what I'm going to say that is maybe strange and weird and you might Think I'm crazy, but we can link to it in the show notes. That's really impressed upon me. The importance of the church is just the Westminster Confession and reading through old confessions. And, you know, I know that that is, you know, just saints of old and why they said these things matter. They took time to write these things. And, you know, they talk about what the purpose of the church is. They talk, you know, and they put all these things in for us to glean from even older saints. So one thing I like about that is we're not doing something new.
- [36:20]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Right. Right.
- [36:21]
Melissa Krueger
We're doing something very, very old. And it's just always helps me remember, reminds me that I'm connected to. Yeah. And we can learn from church fathers and mothers who are long past.
- [36:33]
Unknown
Yeah, that's so good. And I guess, similarly, I think about the Psalms in that way because they have the full breadth of human emotion. And I'm not the first to lament injustice. I'm not the first to lament hurt. I'm not the first to describe how painful that is. And so to be able to use those words and to know that those were used in the context of. Of worship, of corporate worship, it kind of normalizes that for us and gives us sometimes a heart language and a verbiage by which to express some really hard things. And so I like the Psalms for that.
- [37:08]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I love that. Well, and I would also recommend Megan Hill, again, a Place to Belong. You know, if that is something that Megan Hill is.
- [37:16]
Melissa Krueger
Megan's just great on the church in general.
- [37:18]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
She is, because she loves the local church. And I think that that's one reason we wanted to have this conversation in this way, is because the local church is so near and dear to each of us. And I know that even my spiritual formation has been part of it, has been informed by how my love for the local church has grown. It's been a part of how Christ is forming me more into his image. And so I am really grateful for that. And I've been really excited. Excited about this conversation. So thank you for joining us for this Deep Dish episode where we hope you are leaving with a greater love for the church. We always end every episode with one. Just kind of fun get to know you. Question. And so, Vanessa, what is. What is your favorite hymn?
- [38:10]
Melissa Krueger
Oh, that's a hard question.
- [38:13]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Is it me? Oh, it's. I can.
- [38:15]
Melissa Krueger
I know for one you love a lot favorite. That's like.
- [38:18]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Oh, you're right.
- [38:18]
Melissa Krueger
You're right.
- [38:19]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. It's like the.
- [38:22]
Unknown
Listing and prioritizing what.
- [38:24]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Is one of your favorite hymns? And will you sing it for us?
- [38:27]
Unknown
I will not sing it for you. The audience will thank you. So I've got so many, but one of them from my childhood is my grandfather used to pray in the mornings. And so whenever he first woke up in the mornings and just as a little person coming through the door, I will set off this chain of activities when I came in. But when he woke up, he was an old Baptist deacon and he would sing, he would belt out this hymn, Father, I stretch my hand to thee, no other help I know if thou withdraw thyself from me, whether shall I go. And he woke up every morning declaring his dependence on the Lord. And it has been formative for me. It's the cry that I have cried out many times.
- [39:12]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Like my grandfather taught me, he never leaves that hand outstretched without taking.
- [39:18]
Unknown
I love it. I love it. So there's, there's, yeah, there's, there's one that was the first one that came to mind chronologically.
- [39:26]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
I love that. Well, thank you for joining us for this episode of the Deep Dish. If it was helpful, we would love for you to like it, share it with others. Leave comments for us wherever you're watching or listening to, to this and and let us know how the local church, how it is such a part of your vibrant life in Christ. And we hope to see you next time on the DEEP dish.
- [39:54]
Unknown
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.