Chasing Evil: Voices of the Dead with John Edward & Bob Hilland

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Determined Society with Shawn French

Episode: "Chasing Evil: Voices of the Dead" with John Edward & Bob Hillen

Date: September 8, 2025
Guests: John Edward (psychic medium, author), Bob Hillen (retired FBI agent, co-author)
Host: Shawn French

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Episode Overview

This engrossing episode of The Determined Society dives deep into the collaboration between psychic medium John Edward and retired FBI agent Bob Hillen, co-authors of the new book Chasing Evil. Through their three-decade partnership, the pair recounts their work on cold cases, the skepticism and sacrifices behind their alliance, and how grief and determination fuel the pursuit of justice. The conversation is candid and often humorous, but always threaded with heart and vulnerability, offering profound insights on belief, loss, and the search for truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin Story: How a Skeptic and a Psychic Joined Forces

[02:54] Bob Hillen shares how, as a young New Jersey police officer in the 1990s, he became aware of the John Smith missing persons case—a case accentuated by suspicious repeat disappearances but lacking evidence:

"They couldn't bring the case together. There was no bodies, no physical evidence, and it went cold." — Bob Hillen [02:54]

After years away in the FBI, Bob revisits the cold case and, as part of his renewed investigation, approaches John Edward—a psychic he'd once dismissed as a fraud.
[06:58] Bob deliberately "tests" John with unrelated items mixed among the victim's belongings, and is stunned by John's accuracy in separating them and providing precise information:

"He separated these things out and says, 'I don't know what these things are, but they have nothing to do with the reason you're here.' … It could not be denied." — Bob Hillen [06:58]

2. Skepticism, Belief, and the Unexplainable

[05:59] John reflects on his own initial disbelief in psychic phenomena and how his approach with skeptics mirrors his personal journey:

"I didn't really believe that this world of energy existed in the way that it does… It's up to them. But it's no different than any other client that sits in front of me.” — John Edward [05:59]

[25:39] Bob describes hiding the collaboration from colleagues for years and how even after decades, the “young Bob” inside him is incredulous:

"The young Bob Hillen would be making fun of you two…The world was very black and white to me back then. John has taught me an awful lot…there's more than what we just see." — Bob Hillen [25:39]

3. The Emotional & Personal Toll of Chasing Justice

[16:10] Bob opens up about the strains on family life caused by his dedication:

"There's only so many hours in the day... I'm not a guy that does things by half measure. I'm all in. And that's a strength, but it's also a converse weakness." — Bob Hillen [16:10]

A poignant moment is when his young son throws his pager—symbolizing the intrusive nature of duty in family life [16:32].

[19:18] Bob reveals writing the book is, in part, a tribute to his children, explaining his long absences.

4. Spiritual Guidance Meets Hard-Nosed Investigation

[11:53] John likens the challenge of working with Bob to lifting unexpected spiritual “weights,” realizing he could stretch his abilities further than expected:

"It kind of was like a new discovery of an aspect of something that I didn't think I can do... it became a way that I can stretch." — John Edward [11:53]

[14:31] The episode also spotlights the relentless dedication of law enforcement behind the scenes:

"If I could show people the level of dedication and determination that Bob brought to the individual cases, I think it really shines a light on people who are like the unsung heroes." — John Edward [14:31]

5. Exploring Grief, Growth, and the Lessons Beyond the Cases

[24:39] The conversation expands beyond crime-solving, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own losses and spiritual evolution:

"It’s not just about the cases. It’s about getting people to look at their life. It gives a sense of comfort, right? ... The more introspective we can be…the more impactful.” — Shawn French [24:39]

[29:27] A recurring message: "look at what's right in front of you"—both in investigations and in life.

6. The Credibility Dilemma: Coming Out of the Shadows

[39:13] Bob details the delicate process of revealing his alliance with John to select colleagues, often camouflaged as confidential “sources.” FBI agents interviewed for the book verified the accuracy of John’s tips.

[43:00] John shares how people assumed Bob’s presence indicated security concerns due to death threats, unaware of the true psychic-law enforcement collaboration.

7. Navigating Public Vulnerability

[50:30] Bob shares the discomfort—and hope—of stepping out from behind the scenes and revealing personal vulnerabilities in the book:

"I am the guy that…I grew up…a guy doesn't have feelings, a guy doesn't have emotions. So for me, I feel like I am letting the world into my life, and that's scary…" — Bob Hillen [50:30]

[52:25] The journey has also taught Bob about his own emotional landscape and the value of facing family and personal history.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On skeptical beginnings:
  "If the young Bob Hillen was sitting here, he'd be...saying, what are you guys doing? Why don't you get a Ouija board out..." — Bob Hillen [25:39]

• On bridging skepticism:
  "Chasing evil is a great way to get them to kind of walk through that door without them realizing they're walking through that door." — John Edward [28:19]

• On family sacrifice:
  "My little boy, Connor, picked up the pager and threw it against the wall. Because for him, when he heard the pager go off, he knew that meant dad was going away." — Bob Hillen [16:32]

• On perseverance in the face of adversity:
  "Not saying no to something when somebody in the face of adversity is saying, you can't do that. Finding a different way." — John Edward [55:27]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bob’s First Meeting with John & Initial Test — [06:58]
• John Reflects on His Own Early Skepticism — [05:59]
• Bob Discusses Family Strains of His Work — [16:10], [16:32]
• Spiritual “Weight Lifting” Analogy & Growth — [11:53]
• On Keeping Their Collaboration Secret — [39:13], [43:00]
• On Vulnerability & Publishing the Book — [50:30]
• Host’s Reflections on Loss & Relatability — [24:39]
• “Look at What’s Right in Front of You” — [29:27]
• Skepticism as a Bridge for Others to Consider the Paranormal — [28:19]
• Memorable Over-the-Top Police Investigative Moment (Glamour Shots Photo) — [34:30]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The tone is alternately earnest, reflective, humorous, and raw.
Both guests are candid about the personal and professional costs of their journey, but also passionate about the meaning behind their work. They stress that the book Chasing Evil is not about converting skeptics, but about offering a record of reality as they lived it—a blend of empirical persistence, spiritual openness, and personal transformation.

For listeners, the episode delivers not just true crime and the paranormal, but authentic lessons about grief, determination, the unknown dimensions of our experience, and the possibility for unexpected allies to profoundly change our life's course.

Transcript

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[Bob Hillen]

John Smith came in one day, reported his wife missing. They couldn't bring the case together. Was no bodies, no physical evidence, and it went cold. When I first went to John, I, I thought he was a con. I felt, how could people be stupid to believe such a thing? John's assistant instructed me to bring items that belong to whoever the victim was in this case. I'm a guy who deals in logic and evidence. John had provided a lot of information that was very relevant to the case and even information at that time was we had not yet known about the case. How this man could know the specific details that he was providing me didn't make sense to me.

[John Edward]

How did Bob Hillen find that person? This is one of the ways Bob represents those people who don't have a belief system. So for anybody that has that person in their lives that you want to get them to think about, is there a survival of consciousness, paranormal, supernatural? Chasing evil is a great way to get them to kind of walk through that door without them realizing they're walking through that door.

[Bob Hillen]

Foreign.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Guys, I got a doozy for you. Today we have John Edward and Bob Hillard, co authors of Chasing Evil. And I'm going to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, this is a real page turner. For those of you know me very well or may not know, I'm not a, a massive reader, but when I, when I open this book, I literally cannot put it down. So I. Guys, welcome to the show. Excited to talk about this.

[Bob Hillen]

Thanks for having us.

[John Edward]

Thanks for having us.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Wow. This thing has been a long time in the making, guys, right? I mean, you know, this trust can be for John or Bob, actually. Bob, let's start with you. You know, this, this case, this cold case that would just kind of haunted the community. But you had interactions with this gentleman early on. They brought him in for questions. So why don't you start off your experience there and how it catapulted into this massive thing that you guys are creating together.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah. So I started my career many years ago in the 90s. I was a police officer in this small town in Jersey. And this man by the name of John Smith came in one day, reported his wife missing. I was not involved in the case. I was a young cop, but certainly was aware that this woman had disappeared. The investigators at the time ran into ground every lead, and they learned that this same guy had been married to another woman who disappeared many years earlier. And despite the efforts of many capable investigators over at that point, it was over 20 years. They couldn't bring the case together. There was no bodies, no physical evidence, and it went cold. In 97, I left and I joined the bureau out in the New York office working cold case homicides, organized crime cases, gang cases, that kind of thing. And I happen to bump into one of the old detectives that I used to work with. Literally sitting at his desk. I see the binders on this case, and I asked him, what happened to this case? And he said was it was dead in the water. So because of my connection, I decided to start investigating it. So that was my. My entry into the investigation.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

It's interesting. So for the license to know John. John Edward, you know, was previously crossing over. He's an author, you know, very big name in this industry. And you were doing readings on air. Right. And that's how Bob really kind of heard about you and really pushed back on that. On that fact, though. So, you know, eventually you guys started working together secretly. Right. Because, John, if I'm correct, you didn't want people to know you were working with law enforcement at the time, correct?

[John Edward]

No. My dad was a New York City police officer. And one of the edicts that he gave me was, one, don't sully our name and embarrass me. And two, don't say you're working with the police, like in a very cliche kind of way. Don't do that. And I really had no interest, like, legitimately. It wasn't what my calling was. It wasn't what I was interested in doing. My role was to help people kind of like evolve through maybe their grief or whatever the circumstances that they were kind of going through. I had gotten a phone call from Bob in the office and my assistant at the time, I think in hindsight, and Bob and I just discovered this not too long ago, I thought Bob had called me a number of times and he like, was like, nope, just once. But my assistant at the time was I think intrigued that the FBI was like calling the office. So she made it like urgent and Bob came in. And I think that one instance for me was like, I'm going to see if I can help. It was something I normally would not have done, but because of the way that it was, you know, put to me like, I was like, yeah, I'll, I'll try to help. And that connection is what sparked off a three decade friendship now relationship. He's like my brother.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's awesome. That's awesome. How was it for you, John, just to go back and kind of, kind of learn how Bob viewed the medium space, the psychic space, prior to working with you?

[John Edward]

You know, it wasn't ever something that I was like, oh, I can't believe you never believed, or I can't believe you were coming from a place of trying to like bust me as a fraud. I think because of the way that I came into the subject matter, I came into it in very much the same way. I didn't really believe that this world of energy existed in the way that it does. And because at, you know, the age of 15, I had my own meeting with a psychic that put me on my path. I discovered the reality of something being validated for me. So I kind of knew the journey that he could go on or would go on, that was up to him. But it's no different than any other client that sits in front of me. I can only do what I do. I can give them insights and information and how that they work with that in their lives is really up to them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know, Bob, I found it pretty funny. Thank you for that, John. I found it pretty funny when you're going to meet him for the first time. You brought all these things that were related to the case. Right. But then you, you brought a little test items too, didn't you?

[Bob Hillen]

I did. And you know, when I first went to John, I thought he was a con. I, when I first heard him on the radio, I felt, how could people be stupid to believe such a thing? And I would shut the radio off and this happened repeatedly. And then, you know, I worked in probably 20 cases at the time. This was one of many. And I really think the universe or the circumstances brought it together. So to your question, Sean. Yeah. John's assistant instruct me to bring items that belong to whoever the victim was in this case. They knew Nothing. They all, they knew I was Bob from the FBI and I was investigating cases. Somebody was missing. It's all the information they had. So the day I went to meet with John, I went to several women in my office and I, hey, can I borrow your necklace? Can I borrow your watch? Can I borrow whatever it is? And I put it in the bag with the belongings of the victim when I went to meet John and I was confounded. We put these items before him and if I had them in front of you now, you would not be able to discern one from the other. And he separated these things out and says, I don't know what these things are, but they have nothing to do with the reason you're here. And that certainly got my attention from the beginning. He then proceeded to pick up items that belong to that victim and gave information that was not ambiguous or general. It was specific. It could not be denied. It was things. And I'm a guy who deal and logic and evidence and how this man could know the specific details that he was providing me didn't make sense to me. It, it, it certainly confused me. But I could not, I could not deny what was happening.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Well, that's. That wasn't the only thing you learned that day, was it? Hey, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our Powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands Treatment Centers and the Determined society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury top rated addiction treatment. From medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long term after care. Their resort style campuses, expert clinicians and holistic programs create real, lasting recovery. Together we're committed to bringing hope, resources and healing to those who need it most. White Sands Treatment Centers.

[Bob Hillen]

No, it wasn't. At some point after John had provided a lot of information to myself and the detective that was very relevant to the case and even information at that time we had not yet known about the case, but very specific things because I heard John on the radio where he spoke to people on the phone via the radio, he could connect with their loved ones. So I arranged for him to connect to. To Fran was the victim's name, her daughter. And in doing so, somehow or another conversation focused on me and my family. And John revealed things to me that were impossible for him to have known and actually told me things about my family that were unknown to me and later verified through my parents.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Your mom. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. How was that for you? Because you know, when you, when you look, when I was reading this book. It was just amazing to me, this whole interaction and this building of this relationship you have with John right through the book. Right. But I honestly felt like I was actually in this story and just seeing the back and forth and, and the bridge that he was allowed. Well, I mean, was able to build between you and your father, I think was the most powerful.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, for sure. You know, I described my dad as Archie Bunker. If anybody remembers Archie Bunker, that was my pop. And I vividly remember the one I called my father and described some of the things. You know, he was not an emotional man by nature, but certainly that day on the phone he was. But for me, that experience with John, I couldn't understand it. So for me, I'm the guy. If I don't understand something, I want to ask more questions. So that prompted me to go back to John and ask him more questions. It's like watching a magic trick. I want to know how the magicians are doing this and I don't want to be conned. But yet I couldn't deny the things he was saying. So that prompted me to go back. And I think our relationship build slowly over time. And from that one case, John would start getting details on other cases that I wasn't bringing to him. And I. It was mind boggling to me.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

How is that for you, John? I mean, you're working on one thing and you start getting, you know, your, your guides are giving you more information based on other things. And it's, it's obviously hard to, you know, you can't ignore it at that point. But at that point, did you kind of feel like, okay, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be and this is how I'm supposed to help.

[John Edward]

So I think for me, I've kind of felt like if you would say to me back then, hey, can you, can you like, can you like do dumbbell curls and how much can you curl? I would, you know, and I go, yeah, I think I could probably like, you know, £15. You know, I could probably do £20. And then Bob came into the office and said, hey, can you lift this? And they were like 80 pound dumbbells. And I'd be like, yeah, I don't think I could do that. And then I went and did it and I was like, oh, I, I actually can do this. It kind of was like a new discovery of an aspect of something that I didn't think I can do. So for me, I think it became a way that I can stretch and another analogy I can give to you, Sean, is when I first started doing this in a public way, and I was, like, being invited on media, I was invited on a radio show in Florida, and I was also talking to somebody in Manhattan about going on radio, and the person in New York said, are you nervous about coming on? I went, well, I don't know if I could do this over the radio. I mean, I know I could do it over the phone, but I don't know if I could do it over the radio, especially adding in, like, nerves. So I said, she goes, well, you don't live in Florida. She goes, why don't you go do it in Florida? She's like, if you suck. She's like, only the people in Florida are going to know. They're not going to know in New York where you live. So I was like, that is a good point. It kind of felt like that. Like, it felt like, well, if I suck working with Bob, only Bob's going to know. You know, if I can't really do this, it's not going to be like I'm going to, like, fall on my face in front of people, right? And it was like this whole new fun way of stretching when you're used to doing something one way that nobody would ever ask me to do. So it was a new discovery.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

And it's pretty cool because you're playing, you know, you're playing a hand in justice, right? That. That's. You're. You're helping tie up loose ends and. And bring people, you know, to justice that, you know, these families, you know, that are out there, that are still. They can't stop grieving because the. The unsolved mysteries, the unsolved murders, I mean, it's a big part of everything that they were doing. You know, it was. It was funny because I was, you know, reading. When I was reading, I was going. I remember the show called White Collar where, you know, Neil Caffrey, he helps the FBI. And I just. Oh, this is like that kind of concept. But, like, way different, right? Like, way different. But there's a level of, you know, showing that true collaboration can really change lives. And that's what I love to see here.

[John Edward]

But it's also something that I discovered when Bob would come to me with information, right? Or a case, or he never provided me with details. It was almost like, here's. Here's something I need you to put your focus on.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

If.

[John Edward]

If I could show people the level of dedication and determination that Bob brought to the individual cases, I think it really shines a light on people who are like the unsung heroes that are, that are fighting for justice for everybody. That never gets an accolade, a celebration or an acknowledgement of what are the sacrifices that somebody goes through in order to get that justice, in order to achieve that. That I got invested in. I got invested in him, in what he was doing and where he was coming from, but because I was equally as passionate in doing it in my world, and now I'm watching somebody doing it in theirs, and I was like, if I could help here, I want to.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know. Thank you. You know, Bob, you know, we're talking about sacrifice, right? And, you know, when no matter what we do in life, whether you do what John does, you're an FBI agent or even what I do, there's certain sacrifices that come with it. Right. And a lot of times it could be family. I really enjoyed your transparency within the pages of the struggles, you know, with Alex in the beginning, like when this, when this case came up, you know, I just started getting to the point where I think she's getting really ticked off. Right. She walked out of the room saying, I hate, I hate your job. But I just would imagine that's such a hard spot to be in because you love your family, you love your, you love your two, you know, your, your son and your daughter. And. But you also have this sense of responsibility to bring people to justice and close this case. So, man, how did you walk through that?

[Bob Hillen]

You know, in retrospect, I wish I was better at both. Right. I mean, you want to be all things to all people. You know, I, I, there's only so many hours in the day, and I tried to use them as best I could, and I, I, it's funny. It's a great question you asked me. I vividly remember back in the days before cell phones, we had pagers. Remember pagers?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Bob Hillen]

And as you can imagine, in my world, my pager was constantly going off with all these different cases and things of that nature. And I remember vividly one day, and John, I don't think you know this story. I'm, I'm running around with my son in the living room wrestling with them. He's. He's a toddler. And my pager went off, and my little boy, Connor picked up the pager and threw it against the wall. Because for him, when he heard the pager go off, he knew that meant dad was going away. And I remember that moment, how sad that was. It's hard. I think that I wanted to Be all things to all people. I don't think no matter what your career is, it's hard to do that. Right. With age comes experience. And, you know, if I could go back again, I would probably do it a little bit differently. But I, I'm not a guy that does things by half measure. I'm all in. And that's a strength, but it's also a converse weakness. Right.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I could, I could feel that, you know, and thank you for that story about Connor throwing your pager against the wall. Because, you know, for the audience listening, that's not disrespect. That's. That means into playtime and into connection with dad. And we all know kids just. They don't. They don't want all the fancy things. All they really want is presence. They want those moments with their parents. And so that was a symbol. That was a. That symbolized the end of that time, you know, that time that he had with you, that, that, you know, most time, like, you know, you're at work and when you get home, you try to disconnect, but, you know, the world doesn't stop turning. You know, that. That's. To me, I, I wanted to ask that question because everybody talks about, you know, John mentioned determination and, and we talk about being determined to chase our goals and to become something, but no one talks about the underlying garbage, right? The, The. The hard parts. And, and, you know, I could remember early on where there was a lot of, I don't want to say arguments, but like some contention because I was recording, you know, after I left, after I took the show out of my car, I took it into, you know, my extra room, and then my family's upstairs locked away like some prison, like a bunch of prisoners. And we had those moments, right? And. And it's hard because you, you again, you want to be all things to all people and, you know, when you're trying to build something so you can be successful. So, like, the family also benefits from. They do get impacted a lot. And, you know, what. What allowed you to still continue forward without the fear or maybe even, you know, you know, attracting the fact that, you know, this could be something even majorly wrong with me and my wife.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I think I didn't want to let anyone down, especially the victims in the cases. I didn't want to let the FBI down. I didn't want to let my family down. And so I think I was all in on these things, as I said. And to be candid, I think for me and maybe for John, a Little bit for me, this book. I want my kids to realize what I was doing all those years, that it had purpose. And this is kind of like a tribute to my kids as well. This is. While I'm honored to be on your show, I want my kids to say, wow, that's cool.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, wow. I mean, you know, to make our kids proud. But also that explanation, right, guys? It's like, hey, Daddy wasn't missing. Daddy was just doing this and played a part in a really big thing, you know, that. That, to me, is just so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And I. I can concur. Like, I have three children, you know, just. I want them to. I want them to see what I'm doing. I want them to see all the cool things, all the amazing people I get to talk to, all the fun experiences, you know, traveling and things like that, because I just want them to know that they can, too. That's it, you know? That's it. You know. So, John, we were going back and forth a little bit on Instagram last night. Yep. And it was. It was. It was really eerie. Okay, Bob, you don't know this, but I think this is a fun story. So earlier on in the day, you know, I opened the PDF for the first time and I read for, like an hour straight. Then I had some things to do, came backed it for a little while. And, you know, later on, after we got the kids to bed, I went right to my computer and I opened up the book and it was already bookmarked. Like, I didn't close it out of my. If you knew me, you would know that this doesn't happen. Okay. So I opened the computer back up, and my wife looks over and she goes, you're on it again. I go, I can't stop. Like, I can't stop. And I said, my biggest fear is I know I'm not going to finish the book by the time that I have this interview. But even still, this is just great to connect with the actual people, the actual people in this book that I get to speak to tomorrow. So it's like, I'm super excited about this. And it was the part where you were doing the reading on him, and, you know, you said, you know, Bob, you were brought here for, you know, not just this case, but there's other things. There's a reason that you're in my life. And my phone lit up at that moment that I read that, and I'm like, that's weird. And I looked at it. I'm like, seriously? Dude, like, seriously. And it was at that moment John messaged me back on Instagram at that very moment. I mean, out of all the moments, I'm like, over there, like, what's going on here? And so. But, you know, I mean, if you.

[John Edward]

Believe in that kind of stuff, Sean.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I mean, hey, listen, I do. I do. I mean, absolutely. I've already submitted submitted inquiries to your website. Like, I'm in. I'll fly to New York. But. But no, it's just it, you know, we all don't know why we're in certain situations. And the thing that I'm really enjoying about your two's collaboration for all these years, almost three decades of it, is that. That it. There's constant proof in this universe that people are brought together for a reason. We are energetic beings. We are energetic beings. Like, there's. There's no mistake, there's no nothing. And it's our job to be all in. Like Bob would say in that moment, to figure out, you know, not to figure out, but to, as a consequence, figure out what this really is.

[John Edward]

Yeah, I. I'm. I'm gonna say that having. Having the experiences that we've had and even still, like, in the last couple of days where we're, you know, we're. We're doing this, where, you know, there's a. A tangibility of, like, our story is here. It's like, I could touch it. It's not just this nebulous thing that happened where we were, like, two people that would connect, by the way, mostly over the phone. Right. Hardly ever in the same place at the same time.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

It.

[John Edward]

It now kind of solidifies for me, like, okay, here's. Here's the reality. Here's the lesson, and then I take it to the next place I go for the people like yourself, right, who have this in their hands, and they're reading this. You know, they have this in their hands and they're reading this, and they're in this moment of, can they see themselves? Can they see their story? Can they see their journey? Can this make them reflect back on where their sacrifices are in their job as a CEO or mom, Right. Whatever it is that they're doing, and how can we help them evolve through what we're disclosing here? Because I can tell you privately for both of us, we're excited that this book is out, but we're also, like, nervous about being vulnerable that this book is out, because, yeah, it was kind of like we're both looking at each other like we're going to do this right. Like, we're. We're jumping now. Like this is happening. Like this is coming out.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

But that's the thing. That's what I really loved about it, because it's not just about the cases. It's not just about Bob's gift. And, you know, in law enforcement and investigation, it's not just about your gifts and what you do. What it was really about is getting people to look at their life. I'm going through my own losses in my life while I'm reading this book, because it's so relatable. I'm. I'm going to my grandma who died of pancreatic cancer in 1997. Then I'm going to a bunch of different, other places of people that I may have lost. Like, wow. Like, I bet you they're here. And it gives a sense of comfort. Right? And. And I think that the more introspective we can be about our own lives and the things that we're going through, through stories that you guys are telling or. Or whatever stories that they're reading or listening to, I think it's impactful. You know, I think it's ne. It's necessary. It's such a raw. Such a raw book. I just. I can't say enough about it.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah. I think to all these points, you know, John has often asked me, bob, if we go back in time to that first day and, you know, forecast this is how it was going to go, how would you react? I'm the last guy in the world that will be talking to psychics, right? So. And for 25 years, I had to keep my relationship with John hidden for many, many reasons. Right. But if the young Bob Hillen was sitting here, he'd be. He'd be making fun of you two. He would say, what are you guys doing? Why don't you get a Ouija board out, start talking to each other? You know, that's what the young Bob would say. The world was very black and white to me back then. John has taught me an awful lot over the 25 years, and I. I've learned to understand there's more than what we just see. There's more than what we just see. And. And to kind of tune into that and. And trust that a bit.

[John Edward]

Well, you know, you know.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Sorry. Go ahead, John. No, please, go. Go, go, go.

[John Edward]

So for so many. This is my 40th year doing this, right? So in 40 years of doing this, there's a lot of the same questions that come up. And one of the questions that people will always inherently ask me is if somebody loses a relative and they're in deep grief and they are open, they're objective, they feel like they're connecting. They.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

They're.

[John Edward]

It's not wishful thinking. They know they're seeing patterns, but their spouse is not, Their. Their dad is not. And they're like, how, how. How do I get that person to. To look at this differently? To me, this is one of the ways, because this is coming at it in a way of looking at objective truth where it's. It's not. We're talking about crime. We're talking about things that are outside of the scope of what most people are going to have to hopefully go through. And that gives them the opportunity to suspend their own personal loss and kind of come in a back door and say, well, how. How would. How would John Edward know that if Bob Hillen didn't tell him that, you know, how did Bob Hillen find that person on the side of the highway if that didn't come out in. In the. In the. In the first, you know, reading, how did he know that there were, you know, breast implants with serial numbers on them and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? All of that. All of that now represents the skeptical mindset of the person who doesn't believe in the subject matter, who can come into it in that way. So Bob represents those people for the people who don't have a belief system. So for anybody that has that person in their lives that you want to get them to think about, maybe something metaphysical, paranormal, supernatural, does there. Is there a survival of consciousness? Chasing evil is a great way to get them to kind of walk through that door without them realizing they're walking through that door.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I don't. To that point, the book wasn't written to try to convince anybody of anything. Right. This, this was not a. An homage to John. John is who he says he is. And I know that because I lived and read it with him. Right. I am not a salesperson for John Edward. He's my brother. But I can attest from my own time with him that he is who he is. And all the people who express skepticism, that was me. I get that. But this is what it is. The book is simply a documentary of the events that took place between us. And as I think you may have alluded to, Sean, when you read it, you're going to feel like you're part of these cases with us. And it's fascinating how I met him on this one case and how that one was like a domino. It led to so many other things and so many other cases, and it was just. I honestly believe that all these things happened for a reason, the way they were supposed to. I couldn't appreciate it back then. I didn't understand it. But looking back now, and, you know, you can. It's easy to connect dots looking back when you're going through it, it's hard to make sense of it, but it all seems to make sense to me now.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know, I think it. What it really also does, too, guys, and thank you both for that, is look right in front of you. Like, that was one of the things that was, you know, John telling you within the book. Like, look, it's right in front of your face. Look, look at it. Pay attention. Right? And. And everybody every day is going through something like that that they're not seeing. That's right underneath their nose.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, 100% right. And, you know, the book is going to detail things. You know, when you're an investigator, you want to score the touchdown, you want to put the guy in jail. And sometimes it doesn't always work out the way that you. You hope. But I've learned that sometimes the way it happens, it's supposed to happen that way. And it may be frustrating at the time when I'm experiencing it and it pissed me off. And I would call him up, yelling at him and in the world, and he would say, it was supposed to happen this way. So what are you talking about? It's supposed to happen this way. But I look back now, and that goes to everybody who's listening to this, our personal lives, when we're going through those hardships, you say, why God? And why me? And then years later, you say, you know what? I had to go through those things to get to this really great thing. If I didn't experience all those trials and tribulations and get knocked down, I wouldn't have achieved this great thing. And I think to me, that that's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Represented in the book as well, 1,000%. And. And look, you know those things that you're talking about, those trials, tribulations, those are the growth moments, right? You know, you're a big dude, what, six, eight? How tall are you?

[Bob Hillen]

Six, eight?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Massive, man, right? You know, strong. Lifting weights. But. But when you lift weights, do you stop when it hurts or do you go to failure?

[Bob Hillen]

Right?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Is this. I mean, like, that's the thing that confuses me about. About life in general is too many people want to lay off when, you know, when their Brain tells them, hey, seek comfort. Comfort's where you go to die. Right?

[Bob Hillen]

And yeah, it's easy to lay down.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, yeah. And I just, I really enjoyed it because, you know, all these setbacks in the cases, the, the natural evolution of your friendship, it all had to come out like that for it to be a strong and as riveting as it is now, right. And those things are built by design. And so there's a lot of people out there, right, that say that stuff. But if you bring the idea of a John Edward to him, oh, that's. No, no, no. Well, you can't believe in one thing and not believe in the other, right? Because they're connected in and we're true energy forms, right? That's, that's truly what we are. And so this just whole thing is just fascinating to me. And then, and to be fully transparent, I semi believed it was more hopeful, right John? I mean it was, I was very hopeful that this thing would exist and one day I would have an opportunity to go somewhere and have an experience with someone that can answer some questions about my past. Right. And then my wife's as well. And when I'm reading this, it's not just hope anymore. And that's what I want the audience to, to really dive into. Like guys, honestly, pick up this book. Just pick up the book, read it. I, I mean, preferably a hard, hard copy, but if you need to read it on the Internet or an audiobook, listen to it, read it. Because here's the thing, what they're gonna find, guys, is they're gonna find evidence of you guys piecing something together. And it was almost like moments where John would say one thing and then you would talk to maybe a former boss of John Smith and it would be like dead on. It would be dead on about control, just pure evil.

[Bob Hillen]

Or oftentimes he would say things to me that were silly. And he said, oh, they're showing me whatever, a soccer ball, they're showing me this. I'm like, what does that mean? The hell does that mean? And like I was, I don't want to say dismissive of it, but that's how it felt to me. And then when that moment happened, when that thing manifested or appeared, it was like an out of body experience. And I go, oh my God. And, and then the trick for me was not talking myself out of, oh, this was a coincidence. This was just. Because it's easy to do that, right? It's easy to explain it away. But through experience I started realizing this isn't just a soccer ball. This isn't just this. This has purpose and meaning. And I think as I grew with my relationship with John, the better I could appreciate that and understand that and not question it. Maybe that's it.

[John Edward]

And, Sean, for me, the fun part being like. Like the Robin to Batman here was kind of like watching the tenacity of some of the things that this man did where I'd be like, you did what now? And one of my favorite things is when he put Bob. When you put the photo in the window at the mall.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, my God. It's the glamour shots.

[Bob Hillen]

Oh, yeah. That didn't work out.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Dude, you got lit up by that lady.

[Bob Hillen]

That did not work out.

[John Edward]

That was like. When he told me he did that, I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe you did that. And the second part was. That's pretty brilliant. That's actually pretty brilliant because it triggered her.

[Bob Hillen]

Oh, it triggered her. Yes, it did. Did. But things happen the way they're supposed to, I guess.

[John Edward]

You know, that. And then, Sean, did you get up to the confrontation moment where Bob put, like, like, the whole sting operation together where everybody was being confronted in John Smith's world yet?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. So we were just. I'm at the part where we were just talking about it, and then the one agent said, no, this is a bad idea, and then went to another agent, said, well, what do you think? She's like, I think Bob's idea is a great idea. I think I'm.

[John Edward]

I got a front row seat to all of that. Like, I literally was like that. To me. That, to me was just, like, another reason why, like, I'm in. Like, this is, like, I'm. To be a medium, you have to be somewhat nosy and curious about, like, what's happening while you're in the zone, and. And to see the lengths that he went to try to bring closure. And I don't even want to say to Betty Fran's family, but to the memory of Betty Fran. Huge. Absolutely huge.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, I mean, we're just. We're. I can tell. We're just starting. The stove is just starting to get hot, so to speak, you know, in the book. And I'm, you know, like I said, I'm reading it on the computer, so I'm about. I'd say probably 100, 120 pages in somewhere around there. I don't. I don't remember, but, I mean, it's probably more pages than I read all year, guys. It has to grab me. You know, it really has to grab me. And, you know. You know, admittedly, my wife will tell you this. She likes to watch the hopeless romantic thing. She likes to watch the comedies. I'm like, ooh, let's watch something that twists my brain. Like, I want to be twisted. I want to be pulled. I want all the ups and downs, and then I want the wow factor at the end. And so this, the genre of the book, like you said, pretty much just a memoir biography of everything that went on is hitting me somewhere where I really like to be led. I like the aspect of the whole thing.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, well, you should have tried living it. It was quite an experience. Right. And then, you know, the circumstances where I had to hide it from the bureau, and sometimes things happen where I had to kind of reveal to some of my close friends what was really happening. And, you know, it was, it was, it was something. It was something to live through. It was. And, and, you know, the reality is there's, there's many cases covered in this book. The Smith case was the one that brought us together. But each one of these cases probably could have been a book in and of itself. So it was challenging to get as much as we did in this one book, but we, we did our best.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So you're saying there's going to be more?

[Bob Hillen]

Who knows, John? You're a psychic. Is there going to be more?

[John Edward]

I, I, I, I, I think that's to be determined. Right? Oh, no, let's see how this, let's see how this goes. I mean, there's more for us. We know that there's more for us. We don't know how much more public it'll get.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's, but we've got.

[John Edward]

Listen, here's the thing. You're. You're reading the, the PDF version, right? Yeah. So I want your, I want your immediate, because I like your energy. I like where you're coming from. What's your perspective? You see this in a bookstore. Does that make you go, I want to buy that. I want to pick it up? Or does it make you feel like, oh, no, that's too dark?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

No, no, no, no, not for me. I'm like, oh, chasing evil? Hell, yeah, let's do this right? Because I think everybody has that side to them where they like to be kind of, you know, tweaked around a little bit mentally, because, you know, it's a whole reality out there and it's happening out in the world. But for me, you know, it's a, it's a poll, right? It's, It's a. It's a pull to that book. Not even just the COVID it's the title. You're like, chasing evil. That's interesting. Why in the world would anybody want to chase evil? Like, but if it were conquering evil, be like, no, like, it's perfect. I actually want an autographed copy, guys. I'm just going to throw it out there to all.

[John Edward]

I think we can arrange that.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I think we can. You know people that know people that know my. People that can get.

[John Edward]

Yeah, we know people.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I don't have any people, so.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, you. You have people. You have people you know, so. You know, Bob, let me ask you a question, because you had mentioned that, you know, you started, you know, you had to be very careful on how the. The bureau found out about it, but also there was moments where you had to tell your closest friends what. What were the reasonings and how did that go?

[Bob Hillen]

Well, one comes to mind. There was a case involving somebody who disappeared at Yale University. And I was on the scene with some agents and Connecticut State police officers, and John called me from Ireland, I believe it was. And in true John fashion, he starts lighting up like an electrical storm. And he's telling me, she's right there, she's right there. And he starts guiding me through this labyrinth of hallways and doors and rooms. And ultimately later, the victim was found where he said she would be. But when we had searched there initially, we said, yeah, she's not here, she's not here. So all my colleagues see me talking on the phone to somebody and they go, who was that? And I go, it's just somebody. But then when the body was found, they're like, all right, what's the deal here? How did you. Well, then there was another. There was another case where unbeknownst to me, somebody was in my proximity at midnight on a hill, and I was looking for a missing boy, and he overheard me talking to John. That was. That was another time. So I was very careful. Right. I. I certainly did not want to disclose my relationship with John to anyone, so. But somehow we managed pretty successfully.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

How'd you guys work through that? I mean, when. When a couple people started finding out, did you. Did you call John and be like, hey, this is going on? And how did that work between you two?

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I think there were kind of one off occasions. Right. And the people who I did disclose it to were people that I had relationships with. And, you know, they were my colleagues, my friends. And the circumstances were so specific when they would say, hey, Bob, how did you know to look there? What brought you there? You know, it wasn't like I was psychic. It wasn't like I had this ability. What. What really is going on there. So, you know, when they heard the story, even from their perspective, and by the way, they are in the book, these. Some of these FBI agents have been interviewed for the book. Their testimony is in there as well. They would tell you it's undeniable. There's no way Bob could have known this. There's no way these things could have manifested. Right? So it is what it is. You know, that's how it went down. And then there were other times when I was able to kind of create some kind of COVID story. Just, ah, lucky guess, or. I had a. I had a source. A source told me. That's a big bureau thing. I got a source. You got a pretty good damn source. Who's your source in the Bureau? You don't say who's your source? That's like, you know, who's your girlfriend? You don't tell your girlfriend is right.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So.

[John Edward]

And I think, Sean, what was cool is like, about a week and a half ago, one of the producers from Crossing over got a copy of the book, and she read it and she called me up and she was like, dude, oh my God. All of this was going on while we were filming the show, and you never talked about it? You never, like, you never said a word. I was like, no.

[Bob Hillen]

Well, it's funny you say that, because I do remember early on in our relationship, you were filming in Manhattan, and I would show up and, you know, it's hard for me to not stand out, right?

[John Edward]

You don't blend, Bob.

[Bob Hillen]

And all of a sudden I would see all these people look at me and say, like, all right, are we in trouble? What's going on? Who is this guy? You know, and so it's interesting from your perspective I guess too, as well, but here's.

[John Edward]

Here was my cover. You ready? I was having severe death threats. I mean, you know that, right? Because some of them. Some of them, you actually. You made sure that I was safe. But we had gotten. We had gotten a really, really. A really bad one where somebody had described in great detail what they wanted to do to me, my wife, my dogs. It was pretty good, pretty graphic. It's a very scary period of time. So Bob showing up at that time, they just automatically assumed it's a security thing. He's just. It's. It's a. It's. We don't need to know about that it's about security. So that's what they thought. They had no idea. It was all this other stuff.

[Bob Hillen]

And then, ironically, my. My wife at the time, she never believed. And she's met John several times, you know, but she thought I was an idiot. I was a fool. What am I doing with this guy? How dumb could I be the whole time? So that was another friction point where, you know, my relationship with John was galvanized. I knew who he was and what he was. And I've got my wife next to me saying, what are you, stupid? You know? So that was. That was enjoyable.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, it sounds like a blast, man.

[Bob Hillen]

Oh, yes, it was.

[John Edward]

And then I have my wife, when she's reading the book, literally says to me, so how much of this was fictionalized? And I'm like, none of it. It's all documented from, like, Bob's stuff. And she's like, you know, probing me. Like, I know, but for, like, story purposes. Like, did you pump stuff up? Did you make it sound like you know better? So I legit called Bob, put him on speaker, and I said, bob, how much of this book is fiction? And Bob's like, none of it. You. You were there. He goes, why are you asking me this? I was like, oh, no, no, I'm on. You're on speaker. This is for Sandra. I need. I need a Sandra to hear it from you.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That this is all wants to know.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I'll tell you this, Sean. You know, law enforcement, just a culture we're great at. When we get together, we share war stories. It's part of the culture, right? And we do that for many reasons. Number one, so we can learn from each other. Like, I had this case. Let me tell you how it went down, what we did. But we're notorious for telling our stories. The few times, the very few times where I shared with my colleagues my stories about John, you could have knocked them over the feather. Their jaws dropped. They said, you got to be kidding me. So for me to have that reaction amongst people who were very experienced, very seasoned when they heard the story, especially me, I'm the last guy in the world. Bob Hillen doesn't talk to psychics, Bob. Not Bob. And for me to come forward and tell this to get their reaction, if. If your audience has any kind of interest in true crime and the paranormal, they're going to be riveted to the story.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I mean, it peaks a curiosity, guys, right? I mean, for the. For the people out there, you know, listening right now or even watching, could. Could that Right there, what you just said, no matter where they're at in their life, no matter what their belief level or hope level, that's. This stuff is real. You just made them think. But what if. Right. Like, you know, to me, it's. It's irrefutable. After reading the first hundred pages, like, with some of the stuff that went on, like, good Lord, I would.

[Bob Hillen]

I would offer that too. Right. I appreciate all the skeptical comments that, that we've heard, and certainly I get it because I was that guy. But, you know, law enforcement, no matter how diligent you are, there are times when you can run down every lead and you may know that this is the guy and this is what happened. But proving it is another thing. But to those skeptics, I would say, what if, God forbid, one of your loved ones was missing, something happened, and Bob Hillen is running this down, and I run into every dead end, and there's no Stern I've left unturned. But I just happen to have this friend of mine over here, John, who maybe can create new leads for me or maybe who could give me a point or give me some direction. Would you not want me to talk to him? Right.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I. I would venture to say there's going to be very few percentage of people say, no, I'm good.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, right, sure.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Like, why would you. What if.

[Bob Hillen]

What do you have to lose?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I mean. Yeah. I mean, you're already dealing with such loss.

[Bob Hillen]

Right. It's not like I had a magic. It wasn't like John was a Magic 8 ball. And I said, should I go do this? And the Magic 8 Ball said, Most definitely. It's not how it worked, you know?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

No. There was still a lot of work to be done on your behalf and, And a lot of collaboration with the Bureau and, And supporting law enforcement, everything like that. So I don't want them to think like, hey, he just told me this is what happened. Like, he. He gave you clues. He led you to it. Right. But what an amazing gift, John. Does it ever. I mean, does it. Does it tire you out ever? Like, it can be. Imagine.

[John Edward]

Yeah. It can be draining. It can be tiring. It. It really, really depends upon the circumstances of the people that I'm encountering. Some people are just really, really lovely to work with. Some people have a lot of heavy stuff happening around them and, and, and kind of navigating that is like swimming through jello, you know, molasses. It's not exactly an easy. It's not an easy swim, but I'm Dedicated to what I do. I want to leave people better than I find them. And, and, and I've said this publicly, I didn't solve anything. Any of these cases Bob worked on, he solved, he gets the credit. All I did was provide him insights and guidance. No different than when somebody comes to me and they're grieving. I can't heal their grief. I can hopefully empower them with information that there's a survival of consciousness. And that information kind of puts them into the spiritual gym and it's like spiritual fitness. What they do with that is really up to them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's a great point. Like spiritual fitness, right? We're all searching for answers. We're all searching for a feeling. And if you can turn that on a little bit for somebody and then they can build on that and go seek other answers for themselves and be more kinetic, you know, connected to the energy source and spirituality. I, I mean, heck, man, like that, that's a massive win.

[John Edward]

Yeah. I mean, I started my career trying to. And I, I kind of feel like it's gone. Like the beginning of my journey was building bridges, right? Trying to show people that we can build bridges to the spirit world. Then there was the crossing over era where I was actually showing people the crossing over. And then I knew I needed to leave television because I kind of had that like, been there, done that kind of vibe. And I knew that what I needed to do next, television was never going to let me do. And that was to empower people deeper and provide them with the tools that I use in my own lives. Right. So that's when I launched Evolve. Right. So Evolve plus TV was the place where I brought all of these things together so that when I recognize that somebody needs, not me, but a grief specialist, I've got those people. So whether people are interested in like mindfulness or astrology or any of the things that would be the circuit that you would run in your spiritual gym doing your spiritual fitness. I think it's important for people to be a seeker and explore so that they can discover new alternatives to put into action.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's amazing. So you actually help people turn that part on.

[John Edward]

I try to help people to recognize not to go be psychic, but to look at life through like an energetic lens and ultimately like, what's the lesson? And, and, and all through chasing evil. You'll see that with me and Bob. And I love the trajectory that early Bob has to now Bob. Right. To see the journey of the language even that Bob would use. Right. Like, even like today in the Interview Bob saying that the universe brought us together early. Bob would not say that.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I gathered that from the first 2550 pages.

[John Edward]

Yep.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's pretty awesome, guys. How. I mean, so you mentioned that there's a little bit of nervousness because now it's out, you know? You know, you mentioned also to me that someone from Crossing over reach out to you and absolutely love the book. You know, Bob, what's your experience been like since it's been out?

[Bob Hillen]

So this is new territory for me. I. I am a guy who always worked behind the scenes. You know, even though I'm a large guy, me doing what I'm doing now is new. And. And as you know, I started reading the book. It's very personally revealing too. Right. And I am the opposite of that. Right. I am the guy that I grew up. You know, a guy doesn't have feelings, a guy doesn't have emotions. You just tuck your stuff away and you put your head down, you move forward, and you don't talk about all this stuff. You just live your life and do your job and do your job. It's as simple as that. So for me, I feel like I am letting the world into my life, and that's scary. It's intimidating. But I think, hopefully, even if one person finds value in this, it's for a good, good cause. I hope that whatever I learned in here, whatever mistakes I made, somebody's going to say, hey, I get that. I'm that guy now. I can sympathize with Bob Hill, and I need to learn from his mistakes. Right? We do that with our kids. We all have to learn from our mistakes. But there are certain mistakes you don't want your kids to make. And you say, learn from me, but it is rather daunting. I am excited by the opportunity. I'm excited to see what comes from this. But this is opposite of everything I've done up until today.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Pretty darn cool, man. Pretty darn cool. You know, it's. I grew up kind of the same way.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know, it was real Men Don't Cry, you know, all these different types of things. If you feel a certain way, push it down. But that does create a lot of anger. As you grow older, that creates a lot of gaps in who you're supposed to become because you're holding on to this emotion, all this energy that's just holding you back from that next version of yourself.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I think that. I think that's. I think that's spot on for me. While I learned an awful lot From John, as far as his abilities and working these cases, I think in reflection, I learned a lot about myself in this process that I didn't even begin to understand back then. I thought I. I knew myself, you know, but, you know, hopefully with age experience comes some wisdom. And I look back and I go, john, you really did teach me a lot. You.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You really did well, I mean, I can go back to the Georgie story just even for that, like. And that was a big thing that your family didn't talk about, that you were able to bring out. I mean, that's a part. Even though you weren't around, that's a part of your history. It's part of your family history. And I would also like to think that it relieved a massive boulder from your mom's shoulders.

[Bob Hillen]

Yeah, I think every family has those skeletons, right? And, you know, especially the older generation. You didn't talk about things. My family's great. You sweep things under the rug, and when it gets too big, you get under the rug. Right? That's the. That's how a lot of old families were. At least mine was, man.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Bob Hillen]

And. And, you know, that's not the way to live life. That's not how healing happens. That. That just creates the opposite effect. And you got to sweep all that stuff out. You really gotta. You gotta reset everything.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know, guys, I. I just. This is a different interview than anything I've ever done. Right. And it's. You know, I want the. I want the audience to really be on this journey with me and know that this is something different, because I take. I don't take any pride in. In. In saying. And in keeping that in. I want everybody to know it because, you know, this is such a. An amazing topic. There are so many things that happened within both of your lives and in this book that if the audience just gives it the chance to pick it up and read this darn thing, like, they could start to see a whole other side to life and. And dimensions and spirituality that could not just. Even if it's not what you guys dealt with, right. At that level, but gives them that hope to move forward another day and know that they have impact on their life and that there's good forces out there, because we all know that you can't have good without the presence of evil. It just gives so much hope.

[Bob Hillen]

I think that's true. You know, recognizing your own weaknesses comes to strength. Right? And those areas you need to improve. John taught me that. And I will tell you personally, the best people I've ever met in my life, have some of the most significant scars. They've been through the hardest stuff. Right? Those are the people, like my go to people are the ones that have gone through. Gone through the stuff and have come out on the other side and are better for it. And, and I think the book will reveal that about me. And, and I hope, I would love to know, John, what did you learn from me? And all. In all the years we've been together.

[John Edward]

That list is a little bit too long. Perseverance, determination, specifics, details. Not saying no to something when somebody in the face of adversity is saying, you can't do that. Finding a different way. It almost like was like striking chords that existed for me under the surface. And I kind of feel like amplified it in almost every time you and I spoke about something that you were doing. Because I would always sit back and just be like, this man's got tenacity. Like, I can't even imagine.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

No, it's interesting because the show is called the Determined Society.

[Bob Hillen]

No.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know, in this whole story, your whole friendship is literally the actual definition of determination. I mean, it's incredible. I. I really appreciate you guys and I thank you guys. Thank you so much for coming on. I. I cannot wait to get this thing out for you guys and, you know, get this out to the public so people can listen and hopefully have an open mind. My DMs are open if you want to come at me, but it's okay, you probably won't. I don't get. I don't get too much hate, but now I'm talking to them. But, you know, I just encourage people to really come at this with an open mind. You know, go on the Internet, search the book, you know, read a sample copy. I can guarantee you'll pick it up. So, again, guys, thank you so much for coming on. You guys are amazing people, and it was just great to get to connect with you in this. In this level. So thanks.

[Bob Hillen]

Thank you.

[John Edward]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Bob Hillen]

Thanks.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

All right, for the audience, you heard it. Chasing Evil by these amazing men, John Edward and Bob Hillen. Go pick it up, guys. Let me know what you think. Follow them. Follow John on Instagram. Bob, do you have. Are you a social media guy?

[Bob Hillen]

I am not by design.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I didn't. I didn't take you for one. I didn't take you for one, but that's okay. Guys. Again, guys, thank you so much for listening in. Until next time, stay determined.