Coyote Hills: Kellermans on Crime, Family & Legacy

Summary

The Determined Society with Shawn French

Episode: Coyote Hills: Kellermans on Crime, Family & Legacy

Recorded: October 6, 2025 | Host: Shawn French
Guests: Jonathan Kellerman & Jesse Kellerman

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Determined Society dives deep into the creative partnership, family dynamics, and literary craft of father-son bestselling authors Jonathan and Jesse Kellerman. The conversation moves beyond the surface of their new thriller, Coyote Hills—sixth in the Clay Edison crime series—to examine why authentic character development, curiosity about people, and an openness to creative flow set their work apart. The Kellermans offer sharp insights into the realities of both family collaboration and sustained creative productivity, all delivered with warmth, sharp humor, and practical wisdom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family & Creative Collaboration

• Bonding through Work: Jonathan and Jesse reflect on the rare privilege of working together as family, emphasizing that their relationship comes before any professional collaboration.
  • Jonathan: "You love your children, you're not gonna compete with them...I can honestly say in all these books, honestly, we've never had an unpleasant syllable between us." (05:04)
  • Jesse: "The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will continue after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does." (02:58)
• The Origin Story: Their first joint book began serendipitously when Jesse picked up an unfinished manuscript from Jonathan's desk and suggested they tackle it together.
  • They compare their process to "playing in a band"—requiring trust, mutual skill, and joy in creative exchange. (03:38)

2. Creative Process: Structure vs. Spontaneity

• Working Styles: Both Kellermans blend discipline with receptiveness. They stress extensive planning (outlining, character backstory, plotting) balanced with openness to new ideas as they emerge.
  • Jonathan: "You have to be open to spontaneity and new experience ... there's a limit how much you can plan things." (10:12)
  • Jesse: "There is no surer way to choke off your creativity than to say, 'I'm going to be creative now.' ... It happens in a state of relaxation." (11:03)
• Flow States & Non-Verbal Creativity:
  • Jesse draws from his theater background, explaining that collaboration and flow come naturally when ego is set aside (06:20).
  • Both pursue other hobbies (music, cooking, painting, gym) to rest the "verbal" part of the brain, finding that non-writing creativity aids their fiction (16:41).
  • Jesse: "For my dad and, and I think for me, our brains are very busy places. ... So like, things that enable you to temporarily step outside that stream can be very healthy." (17:56)

3. Depicting the Writer’s Life: Myths vs. Reality

• Pop Culture vs. Truth:
  • They note how writers are inaccurately portrayed as either glamorous or dysfunctional in media (e.g., Limitless)—a contrast to the day-to-day grind of actual writing (27:12).
  • Jesse: "Writing life is about ... sitting down in a chair day after day and letting your brain do what it's supposed to do and then going back and fixing the mistakes and polishing it. There's nothing romantic or particularly interesting." (24:30)
  • The key is professionalism and treating writing like a job, not a romantic fantasy (22:27).
• Advice for Aspiring Creators: Focus on the craft, not fame or book publicity—ideas are cheap, but execution is everything (25:22).

4. Crafting "Coyote Hills" & the Clay Edison Series

• Character Evolution: They consciously write protagonists who grow and change over a series—unlike the static heroes in classic detective fiction.
  • Jonathan: "We want to write real characters who change over time...it's a novel like any other novel based on character, but the catalyst is a crime." (29:31)
• Setting as Character:
  • The Bay Area, especially the East Bay, is brought to life as an integral "character" in the series. Coyote Hills uses the varied local geography—especially its often-overlooked relationship with the Bay—as a thematic and plot element (37:25; 39:14).
  • Jesse: "The bay itself is a really important character. ... What does it mean that we have this whole area built around this hugely important natural feature? What does it hide?" (37:25)
• Plotting & Fair Play:
  • Surprises and plot twists are key, but readers must always have enough honest clues—“you have to play fair.” (36:26)
  • Jonathan: "It's all about preparation ... it takes me as long to plot a book, to plan it, as it does to write it. ... Unless you have that foundation, unless you have that structure, it's going to collapse." (40:37)
  • They discuss their meticulous process: starting with general notes, evolving to detailed outlines, then drafting chapters. (41:55)

5. Curiosity, Openness & the Human Element

• Why Authentic Characters Matter:
  • Jesse and Jonathan seek to understand not just law enforcement, but the everyday realities of all professions to bring three-dimensional characters to their books.
  • Jesse: "Understanding the reality of what somebody actually does day to day is so helpful for, I think, creating characters who have a full life and are not these cartoons." (27:58)
• Curiosity as a Creative Engine:
  • Both men are natural extroverts, finding ideas everywhere by engaging strangers and learning about their unique experiences.
  • Jonathan: "The more you know about people, the better writer you are ... you have to be engaged with the world." (47:45)
  • Jesse: "People are often amazed that I really want to know: What do you do all day? ... Especially when someone cares about what they do." (45:42)
• Human Connection: The episode closes on a warm note about empathy, respect, and seeking connection in an increasingly divided world. (49:51; 50:05)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Collaboration as Family:
  • “The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will continue after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does. Who knows?”
    — Jesse Kellerman (02:58)
• On Professionalism in Writing:
  • “Those of us who keep doing it are professionals. We attack it professionally … it's a job. It is a great job, but it is a job.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (22:27)
  • “Writing life is about ... sitting down in a chair day after day and, and, and like letting your brain do, do what it's supposed to do ... There's nothing romantic or particularly interesting.”
    — Jesse Kellerman (24:30)
• On the Craft of Mystery:
  • “With a surprise and with a plot twist, you have to play fair, in my opinion. It has to make sense, and that's a real challenge.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (36:26)
• On Setting as Character:
  • “The bay itself is a really important character. ... Even if you live here, it's a thing that gets in the way when you’re trying to get someplace else ... What kind of mysteries are attached to the coast?”
    — Jesse Kellerman (37:25)
• On the Human Element:
  • “The more you know about people, the better writer you are ... you could be a poet like Emily Dickinson and be isolated, but if you’re going to be a really good novelist, you have to be engaged with the world.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (47:45)

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Clay Edison Series Intro & Premise – 00:00–00:55, 29:51–30:18
• Father-Son Dynamic & Collaboration Origin Story – 01:55–05:52
• Creative Process, Flow, and Relaxation – 11:03–19:45
• Reality vs. Myth of the Writer’s Life – 24:03–27:02, 27:10–29:31
• Plotting, Preparation, and Handling Writer’s Block – 40:35–42:40
• Setting: The Bay Area & Coyote Hills’ Themes – 31:05–41:55
• Curiosity, Interviewing, and Everyday Humanity – 45:42–48:38
• Empathy, Human Connection & Closing – 49:51–50:58

---

Tone & Atmosphere

Steeped in warmth and mutual respect, the episode flows with candid humor and thoughtful asides. The Kellermans openly discuss the gritty realities and subtle joys of both family and writing life, seamlessly combining wisdom with practical takeaways for listeners—whether aspiring writers, fans, or the simply curious.

---

Summary Takeaways

• Genuine collaboration in creativity is rooted in relationship, not ego or competition.
• Sustained writing success demands professionalism, curiosity about humanity, and disciplined preparation—balanced by creative openness.
• Complex, evolving characters and settings grounded in real experience provide depth, relatability, and surprise.
• Writers are craftspeople—the work is often unglamorous but deeply rewarding for those who are drawn to it.
• Human connection—both in fiction and life—is built on mutual respect and curiosity.

---

Coyote Hills releases October 25th—readers who crave authentic, unpredictable mysteries set in a vividly rendered Bay Area will find much to love.

---

For listeners wishing to be inspired by creativity, family, and the art of seeing the world deeply—this episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

[Jesse Kellerman]

This book in particular is the sixth book in a series at this point. Our protagonist, whose name is Clay Edison, and over the course of that series he transitions out of being a law enforcement officer. He's established himself as a private investigator who has a very sort of interesting and collaborative relationship with another private investigator who lives down, down in Santa Cruz. And this book opens with her bringing him a case that she can't handle. She sort of punts to him.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Coyotes Hills is an exciting book. Agatha Christie's, you know, a huge success. She created a great puzzle, but her characters did not evolve. We want to write real characters who change over time. It's a novel like any other novel based on character, but the catalyst is a crime. It is so full of twists and turns and surprises. Literally to the last page.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

What's up everybody? I have Jonathan and Jesse Kellerman here, a father son duo that has published over seven to 10 books together, like literally together. They're New York Times bestsellers. And they have this amazing book, a psychological thriller coming out in late October called Coyote Hills. Welcome to the show, guys.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Absolutely. I mean, you guys are. We got to chop it up a little bit before we hit record and before the show started. So I'm just really excited about this conversation because one of the things that we touched on was the fact that you guys get to do so many of these things together. It's a great bonding experience and I'm looking at your guys's relationship in real time and how you guys edify each other. And I can just hope and pray that when my children get older we can have a side by side conversation. Them feel the same about me and me about them. So, you know, kudos to you guys.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I just turned 76 years old and you. I don't like to introspect because I think introspection is the enemy of creativity. But you do look back and I said, you know, I've written a lot of books, but the thing I'm most proud about are my children. And all four of them have turned out really. They still seem, seem to like me or at least they're faking it. And I love the people that they married. So I joke that my in law kids are my favorite kids because they call me dad and treat me nice. I didn't pay their tuition or go through their adolescence. So everyone. So that's, it's a much. It's much more important to me to have collaborated with my beautiful wife to create These four amazing human beings. I couldn't be prouder of my children. They're really all gems. Amazing. And they're highly accomplished. All of them happily married and prolific in producing other children especially. So.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Yeah, especially this guy right here. Good Lord.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

And he works hard at it.

[Jesse Kellerman]

You know, I. I think. Well, yeah, I think. I think my dad and I, when my dad and I started working together, we both realized that the relationship is much more important than the collaboration. The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will, it will continue after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does. Who knows?

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Maybe we'll be doing these things for.

[Jesse Kellerman]

The rest of our natural lives. But, but, you know, I think that level of trust and mutual respect, both as people and as craftspeople, is what has enabled us to be so, so productive together.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Well, you. You never know what it's going to be like until you do it. And we kind of fell into it, as I say, because I had started a book and I was writing another book. I have a series that I write. I did a non series book and I did about 100 pages of it. And I. It was just too much and I needed. I just. It was too much. And Jesse happened to be visiting with his family and he saw this pile of papers on my desk. He said, what's, what's that? I said, oh, it's a book I started, but I don't think I'm going to finish it. And then he, he picked it up, he said, this is really good. We should finish it. I said, okay, we'll finish it together. So we. And you know, it. It was a bestseller and it was a great book and we had so much fun, we decided to do another one and that was fun. So we kept going and we. It's been a wonderful experience. First of all, I liken it to playing in a band. You know, I've been playing guitar most of my life and I've done a lot of different types of music and I played semi pro and it really makes a difference. I'm sure in sports it's the same way you want your teammates to know what they're doing. It really makes a big difference when you play with people who know how to play. It just goes better for you. Same thing with writing. Jesse was already a highly accomplished writer when he was right out of college. He won the Princess Grace Award for best young Playwright in America. And he had his own bestsellers, so he was highly accomplished. So it wasn't an epotism thing. It wasn't a Nepo baby. This Guy was accomplished. You know, he, he got into Harvard Law, Law School, didn't go, and he had his own deals. And so it was really, it's been fun. And I never understood these people who, like, there was a British novelist, Kingsley Amos, very successful. His son was Martin Amos, more successful. And they asked Kingsley, what do you think of Martin? He goes, oh, is he the skinny one? You know, he just was competitive and scornful and I don't understand that at all. You love your children, you're not going to compete with them. And, but fortunately, Jesse has a lot of talents, so we enjoy writing together. It makes it a fun process. And I can honestly say in all these books, honestly, we've never had a, an unpleasant syllable between us.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It is kind of amazing because he was a teenager and gave me quite a bit of grief at times. But, but he's, he's a grown man now. You know, he's mature and, and you know, he, he was a great kid. I'm not saying we had major issues, but he was, he's not a saint. He went through adolescence, all my kids did. It's part of life. But as a writer, he's, he's fabulous. I mean, it's just great.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's amazing.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

What's your take on all that, Jesse?

[Jesse Kellerman]

Well, you know, I think that, I think one important thing to understand about me is that I come from a theater background. That was sort of where I was for many, many years. I was doing playwriting, I was directing. And that really primed me to be able to collaborate and work together with somebody creatively without your ego getting in the way. Not writing novels is generally a, a one person operation. You're the director, the, you know, the, the, the scenic designer, you're the actor, you're, you're put, you're putting the words in people put people's. No. So I think for a lot of novelists, it's, it's very hard to let go of that level of control. Whereas for me, you know, since, since I, I cut my teeth writing plays, I was very comfortable with the idea that what I do is part of something, something, something larger. Script is a, is a blueprint. It's not the, it's not the finished project product. And I was also comfortable and excited with the idea of, of, of coming to somebody and having that rapport and bouncing things off somebody. Like I love to, to sit around and, you know, and, and, and shoot the breeze with, with my, with my friends and, and this is in Some ways. No, no different from that. It's, it's sitting in a room or a virtual room with, with somebody. And it's, it's the yes and it's, it's the yes and of improv. Okay, what about this? And. Oh, what about this? And, and that state of sort of creative permissiveness and freedom that, that allows you to build a, a total that's much greater than this. The sum of its parts. As. I mean, I mean I don't get me wrong, I love to write my own books and I, and I still work on, on my social projects. But in addition to my dad, I also collaborate with other people just because like that dynamic is, is super fun for me. I have a collaboration. I wrote a, a collaborative comic book with a friend last year. We're, we're, we're developing it for television. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of fun and also comfort in going, being able to go, to go to your partner. Assuming you trust them. As my dad said, they're skull. And you don't feel like you're, you're dragging dead weight. We've all had that experience too, like on group projects where you're like you're dragging people behind you. Uh, you know, so the, the, the important thing is pick your, pick your partners carefully. You pick your partners care. But same thing in marriage. You'll be, you'll be fine, you know.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

And we're gonna take a quick break to hear from our Powered by sponsor. We're proud to announce a partnership between White Sands Treatment Centers and the Determined Society. With multiple locations across Florida, White Sands provides luxury top rated addiction treatment. From medical detox and inpatient care to outpatient support and long term after care. Their resort style campuses, expert clinicians and holistic programs create real lasting recovery. Together we're committed to bringing hope, resources and healing to those who need it most. White Sands Treatment Centers. Yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing to hear. The thing that I, I love everything that you guys said, but the one thing that sticks out to me is most great things come out of things that are unexpected.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Right?

[Sean (Interviewer)]

For sure that you're not 100%, you're not forcing and you know, doctor, you know doc, you had a book that you were trying to write and you're like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to finish it. Jesse picks it up and is like, hey, let's let, this is great. Let's do it together. And then that partnership and collaboration in the professional world developed and from that point you guys have done amazing things together.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Is just for the listeners to really think about.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Right.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

We cannot judge every single moment as it's going to be the end all, be all. We have to be open to the fact that things can develop and can evolve into something completely different than we had envisioned. And what can be born. An amazing run of amazing books and collaboration.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I think that's really an important thing. Obviously you want to do the hard work so you know what you're doing. You have the chops, you have the talent, the, but you have to be open to spontaneity and new experience. In my, in my life, certainly that's the way it's been almost right from the beginning. Even finding jobs as a psychologist, things just kind of, kind of happen to me. I never really, I'm not a big planner. Obviously we want to be organized. I'm not a, right, I'm not a flake. But there's a limit how much you can plan things. And I think you're 100% right. Some great stuff. It's like, like romance. Like meeting my wife. I didn't plan to meet her. You know, having children, I don't know how they're going to turn out. You kind of have to go, go with the flow to some extent.

[Jesse Kellerman]

And this is in creative work as in life, it's this balance between being, having goals and, and structure and also being receptive to what the universe is, is, is giving you. Right. I, I, I, I think. Right. And you can't, you can't do it at I, at either extreme. And you know, sometimes you're, you're, you're working more in the mode of, okay, I got, I gotta like, you know, write this outline. I gotta figure this plot point out. I got, I gotta build this skeleton. And sometimes you're more in that receptive phase where, where, where you're sort of letting, letting things flow through you. But there is no sure way to choke off your creativity than to say, I'm going to be creative now. Like that. That's just not, it's just not a thing. It's, it's, it's, it happens in a state of relaxation. It happens in the state. And for me, and I would bet for you, dad, also, almost when you're, you're doing, you're doing something else, your mind is elsewhere, right. And it's not quite so locked up. So that's why people have good ideas in the shower or whatever. Like when I'm exercising When I'm exercising, when I'm walking, if I feel, if I feel like I'm sort of like starting to, starting to, to, to sort of like run in, run into problems, I stop what I'm doing, get up and I walk away from the computer. Well, and there's, there's nothing better for sort of like relaxing the channels again.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I, I think it might have been Stephen King. Like we talk about the Chinese finger puzzles, those straw finger. The harder you pull, the tighter it gets you. You have to kind of re. Relax it. You know, we talk about left, left brain and right brain stuff. That's a cliche. Now the guy who invented the concept, late Robert Ornstein, who was a neuropsychologist at Stanford, he regrets it because it's been simplified and vulgarized. It. The truth is it's not an either or thing. You have two hemispheres, right and left. For right handed people, generally the left is omniscient. For lefties like Jesse and myself, we never know until we take an eeg. But there's a little, little bunch of nerves in, in between those hemispheres called the corpus callosum. And that's the freeway that transmits messages across. And that's what you need. And to me, writing a novel is the perfect job because think about it. On the one hand, you need what people traditionally think of as, as, you know, as, as. As just organized stuff, leoparding stuff where you, you have grammar, you have spelling, you have structure, you have logic plots that hold together. And then there's the crazy stuff where you're making up people and you're fantasizing. So it's a fantastic job because it engages your whole brain constantly, constantly back and forth. And, and, and Jesse's 100% right. You need to be in a, in a receptive, relaxed state to be able to free your brain up to do that kind of stuff. So it's a great job.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's interesting. It's interesting because if I have a block in creativity, right? It used to be to your point, Jesse, I would go harder. I'm like, no, I need to sit here and I need to figure it out. And then I just get frustrated and then I don't pick it back up for a week. What I started to really rely on is just be present in the moments that I'm not creating. Whether it's in the gym, I. So many of my ideas come from in between sets or in the middle of something. It's just like all of a sudden it pops and you're like, what the heck? Like, to a point where this show was created in a moment that I was driving down the interstate in 2021 and I was like, whoa, wait a second. I wasn't even thinking about this, you know, but it was in a moment of relaxation, thinking about something else, you know, really just, just driving down the road. And then all of a sudden I created the show and we have built to a certain point and now we are here. But even to now, if I get to a point where I get to frustration, I'm like, I'm gonna go play with my kids. Like, I'm gonna go hang out with them. And that kind of centers me because they have such a curiosity and such a playful nature and anything is possible. Like, if I could just have the confidence of my 6, 8 and 11 year old, like, wow, what could I truly do? So I really do believe in not like the Chinese puzzle, not forcing it, because everything gets tighter and constricted. You have to have a point of relaxation to where you can remove the resistance and then move forward. So I love hearing things like this.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Well, you know, that's the basis of hypnosis. When I was working at Children's Hospital, I worked with cancer patients for about a decade and we were exploring different ways of relieving pain, and hypnosis was one of them. So I learned how to do it and I learned about it. All hypnosis is, is strong relaxation and focus, concentration. And they have done studies where they would go in and hypnotize kids in the classroom and their learning actually picks up because they're relaxed. But on the other hand, you have to be able to do the hard work, which when you relax, well, you could do something with it. Others just sitting around smoking weed and nothing happens, you know, so there's relaxation, there's relaxation, but 100% you have to be receptive to it. And, and you talk about the word confidence. And I think after writing a bunch of books, both of us know that if we get into a fix, we can get out of it. So we don't worry too much about it.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Absolutely. Jesse, I believe you were going to say something as well.

[Jesse Kellerman]

I would just. I was, I was going to say to that point about, you know, how you access that, that, that side of your. Of yourself and become receptive. I think for me and for my dad as well, we have a lot of outside interests and hobbies. So for me. So we both play music. My dad paints, I cook. I'm also like a big gym rat. And it's all stuff that is nonverbal. And I think, and I think that that's actually really important. But particularly with things like music or cooking or painting, it's still creative. Like you're still in a, in a flow state a lot of the time. And, and I would, I would argue. I don't know how you feel about this, Sean, but like, even in the gym, there's, there is a flow state going on there. Like if you're like, very focused, you know, I power lift and you really have to concentrate on what you're doing so you get killed or crushed. So, so, so, so. But it's non verbal, right? You're in your body, right? Or you're in your hands as you're playing music or in your ears. And it just sort of like takes the pressure off the, the verbal Higher, higher, higher parts of your brain that, that are constantly sort of, you know, spewing out words. I. For my dad and, and I think for me our brains are very busy places. Like there's just like, there's a lot of, like you're noticing things, you're remembering things. I think, again, I won't speak for my dad, but I would guess it's the same thing. Like you live in a constant state of like recalling and imagining and experiencing. And it's just, it's like this, it's like this constant fire hose of, of words and, and, and, and images. So trying to. So like it. It can be over. It can be overwhelming at times. And, and so I, I think that like, things that enable you to, to temporarily step outside that stream can be very, very healthy and helpful.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

True. I mean, there's, there's a neurological aspect to it which I learned about because two of the things that I like to do for fun are painting, which is actually what I'm best at is painting and playing guitar, playing classical guitar. And I noticed that after a few hours of writing fiction, I can play guitar. But I really had trouble painting. So I asked this guy, Antonio Dimasio, who's one of the world's greatest neuroscientists. Like he studies the nature of consciousness and he's Italian. And I said, antonio, why do I have trouble painting after I'm writing? And he thought of. I said, john, when you are, when you are writing, you're painting pictures with words. You are probably exhausting the same neurons that go toward painting pictures. And it made total sense. Wow. Music's a different, different part. Part of the brain. So you can do it. And it's I thought that was a great answer. I had never thought of it. So, you know, things. Things get fatigued, neural cells empty out, they need refurbishing. You need rest, you need minimal stress.

[Jesse Kellerman]

You know, And I, and I want to say I want to see. I've never tried to describe this to anybody before, but, but. And again, I don't know what my father's experience. When I'm looking at the screen, right I. Right on my computer, I'm looking at the page, I'm seeing the words. But there's a completely separate part of my brain that is playing a very detailed visual image of what I am writing. It's like you're seeing but not seeing at the same time. Your brain is just going in and out of the words and the image and the words and the image and they sort of co. This is really interesting because I've never tried to encapsulate what this experience is like. It's like, it's almost like it's a form of self. Self hypnosis. And everything sort of fades away. Time fades away. It's a flow state. But insofar as the visual component of this is really, really, really strong for me, like, I think for me as a writer, being able to, and I was, as I said, I was a theater director, so being able to like picture my character, move them around in space. Like, I want to know, like, how close is he to the door? So like, if he's this close to the. What's the perspective on the room? What does the light look like from that angle? If he walks further, further in, like, how does the sound change in all of these, all of these things you really want to embody and experiencing and experience it, experience it as you're writing about it. And the words themselves are almost like secondary. They're like where you deposit these images.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It's really true. I mean, I've had. That's. That describes my experience almost exactly. You're in an altered state of consciousness.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

One thing about that's amazing.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Hypnoidal states, hypnosis like states. Do you generally experience distortion of time? Generally it's constriction of time where you, you look up and two hours have passed. That's true of writing. I mean, I will write for two hours and it seems to have been 20 minutes. And I look at the clock and it's been two hours. And it's, it's crazy. They say time goes quickly when you're having fun. And I think it's an element when you're engaged and you're focused. But it is tiring. It's tiring. It doesn't. Two hours of writing feels like eight hours of another job. At least to me. I'm tired after two, three hours, you know, I bet.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You know, I think you guys are touching on what really makes you guys successful authors truly. Because you can have an idea and think about an idea and try to get it on paper or try to create something different in life, but if you can't see it, well, I, it's much harder. The thing that I, it's not as effective.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

The thing that I've noticed about those of us who, who are long standing writers, I've been doing this for 45 years. Stephen King, Dean, Dean Coutts, even Jesse's a young guy, been doing it for 20 years. Those of us who keep doing it are professionals. We attack it professionally. You know, the movies always portray the writer as living some glamorous life and he's got his feet up and he's got, and he's just thinking about stuff and having a martini and there's some good looking chick is doing this. There can be an element of that to fame. I mean, some people like it, but those of us who take it seriously, it's a job. It is a great job, but it is a job and it means you show up on time and you do your job. And, and that's the other way writers.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Are portrayed as, as this like a complete disaster. Like, like where they haven't showered in a week and, and, and they don't know how much money is in their bank account and write it and. Right. So, so like either one is a, is a romantic and not very realistic portrayal of, of what writing life is like. Writing life is about, you know, so funny. Like a, a friend of a son's friend who's like 18 or 20 or something. And, and like really sort of wants to be in, in, in, in the creative world. Texted me recently. He's like, can I shadow you for a day? And I said to him, my, my vedad is laughing because like he knows how absurd that. So I said to him, you know, do you, do you want to like sit in my office and watch me as I type? Like, like, like that's, that's not, that's not going to be very helpful.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kellerman]

So we went to lunch and, and I, and I walked him through sort of the, the mechanics of the book industry and I walked into the mechanics of, of how a book goes from, you know, what the various stages are from idea to you know, development to out like you can, you can, you can chunk these things into, into discrete tasks. But, but it's, it's artificial. It's a, it's an artificial framework that you're imposing upon it to be able to explain it to other people.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Really.

[Jesse Kellerman]

It's, it's, it's just sitting down in a chair day after day and, and, and like letting your brain do, do what it's supposed to do and then, and then going back and fixing the mistakes and, and polishing it. There's nothing romantic or particularly interesting. I, I once had an idea. I was like, maybe I should rent a storefront, like a commercial storefront. And I, and, and I would just sit in the window and write all day long and like, just like see, I could. Because it's such a, it's such an absurd. Everybody's laughing because it's such an, it's such an absurd thing. But people, people, I think people don't do it. They just don't understand what the, what the act involves day to day. It's a very, it's an internal. Repetitive. Repetitive.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah, the pleasure.

[Jesse Kellerman]

All the action is taking place up here and on the page.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

The pleasure isn't typing, it's what's going on in your brain and what you produce. It's just. I found a big difference when people would come up to me and say I want to be a writer. That wasn't going to happen because you're really getting caught up in the Persona, which is a lot of bs. If someone says I love to write or even I hate to write, but I'm driven to do it and they concentrate on the activity, there's a little more hope there. And the other thing is I would have kids come up and say, how do I publicize my book? I go, have you written the book yet? No. And you're thinking about. Because they're so common influencing in the Internet and a lot of bs, you got to produce something, then we'll talk about. And the other thing is people. I have an idea. I said, well, you know, to be vulgar, ideas are like assholes. Everyone's got one. And you know, transform your idea into a book is a big process.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You know, I can speak to this because, you know, I've self published a book, but then I just recently signed my first contract publisher.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Congrats.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

My book that I gotta have the, I have to have the, the manuscript done by December. But I look at this and like this is very interesting to me because you Talk about flow state. You talk about all these different things and all these different experiences. I'm going through real time and you guys have literally unknowingly, unknowingly have given me really good tips on how to get in flow state, how to see the situations in my life that I'm. I'm really trying to bring to the reader in the blueprint of determination and what it really means, what it really looks like.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Exactly. Right.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

And so that's really helpful. I want to touch on one thing because, Jesse, you mentioned something and then I want to get to Coyote Hills.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Okay.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Okay.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Is you mentioned how writers are portrayed in, you know, films and a whole bunch of different things and, or just how the public perception is of a writer, right. Just sitting there struggling, you know, messy hair, not, you know, about to get evicted from the apartment. I look back at the, the Bradley Cooper movie Limitless. That's how writers were. Are portrayed in, in most, in most films, right? Until they're inspired and they're this, this massive intellectual. But, you know, I think that's a, Is a poor way to depict authors and professional writers. But you just triggered that thought and I wanted to bring that to the conversation because I don't know. Have you seen that movie?

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I haven't, but Jesse has, I'm sure.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Yeah. Doc.

[Jesse Kellerman]

I think, I think, you know, like a very. It's not just writers who get this treatment in film, right? Film or books. Right. They need to make something exciting and external. That's the job of a film. Right. They need to make it external and exciting. So, so a lot, a lot of stuff gets. It's. You're turning the contrast like way up on life, right? To it. To a, to an unrealistic point. And that can serve a dramatic purpose for sure. I think. And maybe I'm just unusual in this respect. For me, I often want to know what things are like in the normal moments for somebody. Like, we've talked to a lot of law enforcement because we write a crime series, talk to a lot of law enforcement over the years, right? And most of law enforcement is paperwork. It's not, it's not shootouts and stuff like now you can't write a 400 page novel and 10 book series about paperwork. But understanding the reality of what, what somebody actually does day to day is so helpful for, I think, for creating characters who have a full life and are not these cartoons. You know, I think we always, always, always to, to think character first, you know, per the person and the personality comes first. And, and that's where the story emerges from. You can, you can tweak the contrast, right? You, You. You turn it up when you put. You put a real person in an extreme scenario. But. But what you don't want is, is. Is a caricature or, Or a cartoon.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You know, it's.

[Jesse Kellerman]

That's. That's not satisfying to anybody.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

So. So, Doc, you're talking about the frameworks of a house, the foundation, and in the character, right? People remember the characters, but you can't have a character, and you have a great framework. So. Right, let's talk about this as it relates to Coyote Hills.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Well, that's what we spend most of our time discussing. We have. Jesse lives in a different city, so we do a lot of. Once in a while I fly up there, he flies down here, and we talk. A lot of it's over the phone. We have these conferences and we're trying to figure out this labyrinthine plot. The characters kind of work themselves out because he's a talented guy, so he knows how to play in dude.

[Jesse Kellerman]

So this book in particular is the sixth book in a series. And at this point, our protagonist, whose name is Clay Edison, he's pretty well developed. He's well developed as a person. His backstory is well developed. His family life is well developed. And we've been following him sort of in real time as he gets older, gets married, starts to have kids, and against that background is sort of his professional life. So he starts the series as an Alameda county sheriff, specifically working in the coroner's office. So, Sean, Sean, you were telling us off camera that you're from Concord, California. I live up in Berkeley, California. So you are definitely familiar with the territory?

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Oh, absolutely.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Yeah. So. So. So one of the things we really wanted to do with this series because I think it's a really interesting geography and there's like, lots of different pockets around here. Was take. Take each book and sort of move it around, move the camera around to different locations in. In the. In the Bay, particularly the East Bay. So. So it really doesn't focus. People think of the Bay Bay area as San Francisco. That's not my experience. My experience is. Is the. Is. Is the East Bay. So the books are set in Berkeley, they're set in Oakland, they're set in Fremont, they're set in San Leandro. All of these places that don't get a lot of exposure in it and treatment in fiction or film, but are really, really, really interesting. And over the course of that series, he transitions out of being a law enforcement Officer, because he gets himself into a certain amount of trouble by the time we catch up with him. In this book. In Coyote Hills, he's established himself as a private investigator who has a very. Who has a very sort of interesting and collaborative relationship with another private investigator who lives down in Santa Cruz. And this book opens with her bringing him a case that she. She can't handle. She sort of punts to him.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

And they're a great dyad. They're a great couple.

[Jesse Kellerman]

They're super fun.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

She's five feet tall. She's wisecracking. But just to go back a little bit, we had talked about being receptive to change and shifting gears. The genesis of this series came from the fact I had them thinking for a long time about what I was used to In Southern California, L.A. county coroner's investigators, CIS. Because I thought, no one's written a book about a CI. And they were the first people on the scene. You know, in the movies, they showed the pathologists showing up. Pathologists almost never show up to see no less there's a celebrity and they want to get on TV or something. These cis, they're ex cops, they're social workers, they're nurses. And they say, you know, the cops get the case, but the. But the Crip, the coroner has the body, so the cops can't. Can't touch the body till these CIS come. They empty the pockets, they inform the family. And no one's had done a book about them. So I was thinking my LA thing, and I was talking to Jess. I said, wouldn't it be cool to do a series based on the CI? Great. But we decided to put it up up north in California, because I already had a series in Southern California, and Jesse's up Northern California. We want to cover that part of the state. Well, what did we discover? That up in Alameda county, up in Northern California, totally different. The coroner's investigators there are sheriffs. They're cops. So we had to switch gears and change everything and go with that. And then we've evolved. Clay, he. He did several books as a CI. He got into trouble, and he's now working for himself. So it's the ability to, you know, to be flexible and change things. You know, when you talk about these crime. Crime novels, Agatha Christie's, She's a, you know, a huge success. But what Agatha Christie did, she created a great puzzle. A great puzzle, but her characters did not evolve. Poirot on the first book was Poirot on the 20th book, Ms. Marvel was Ms. Marvel that was not her genre. When. When my wife and I got into crime fiction, we decided we wanted to be part of something different. We want to write real characters who change over time, and that's what we do. It's a novel like any other novel, based on character, but the catalyst is a crime. The crime is what gets people bumping into each other and getting. And that's what we do, and that's what we do in Coyote Hills. And as Jesse mentioned, it's all about the setting, the physical setting, being a character. And, you know, Jesse's able to create these tremendous vivid senses of place up in Northern California. And it's an area that has not been covered extensively. So. And it's so varied. You know, Berkeley's really different from. From Fremont or from other places. So it's. It. It's limitless. So Coyote Hills. Coyote Hills is an exciting book. It is so full of twists and turns and surprises, literally to the last page. It really is. You want to be about surprise. When I read a book, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if it's a crime novel or a straight novel. I want to be surprised. I want to have a reason to turn the page. It's all about creating surprise.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

What I love is when I'm watching a movie, let's say.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

I want my brain to be twisted and turned.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Exactly.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

And go back and forth of what I think is actually going on. And it is the same thing I like to happen when I read a book because then I'm able to see on the movie screen in my mind.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Right.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

So I think it's super important. And to relate to the characters must evolve. If they don't, how can it be relatable? People grow. People have different versions of themselves. You know, me now is nowhere. Is nowhere near the same as me in 2007 or even 20, 23, guys.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Right, right. It never stops.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Why shouldn't a character in a book evolve?

[Jonathan Kellerman]

But, you know, with a surprise and with a plot twist, you have to play fair, in my opinion. It has to make sense, and that's a real challenge. It's really hard to create surprises and twists that you've been fair. You've given the same facts to the readers. You're not pulling something out of a hat. It's a very tough and wonderful job. That's all I can say.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You guys are firing me up. I can't wait to read this thing.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Oh, it's a great book. It's a great book.

[Jesse Kellerman]

It's a great book. Wow.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Really happy.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Interesting. One thing, one thing. And you'll appreciate this being an area, and you have one thing that, that this book really focuses on. So again, like. Like we said, like, the geography and the sort of, like the different communities here intersecting is really, really interesting to me. Because you have such a varied population and such a varied geography. This book is a lot about the water. It's a lot about the bay itself. The bay itself is a really important character. And I think it's so interesting because I've lived here now for 13 years. My wife grew up here.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

I've lived here.

[Jesse Kellerman]

We've lived here now for 13 years. And something we talk about in the book is like, even if you live here, like, I'm very close to the, to the water. If I drive like two miles that way, I hit the bay. But it's very different here than it is in Southern California, where there's, like, a strong beach culture. Like, a lot of times people in the Bay Area spend their time trying to get around the water. It's like a pain in the ass. Like. Like, it's a thing that gets in the way when you're trying. When you're trying to get someplace else, you know, which is not to say that people, like, surf and boat and all that. They, they. They do, but we don't, I think, have the same sense of, like, we're. We're like a, you know, like an ocean going. Ocean going people. My kids, we go to the beach when I go to visit my parents in Southern California. So to start to think about the. Well, what does it mean that we have this whole area built around this hugely important natural feature? Like, what does it hide? You know, like, what is it? What is it? Like, what kind of. What kind of mysteries are attached to the coast? So that was like. That was a theme. We were really interested in exploring that.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

That's so interesting. And you're right. I mean, being from that area, it's like, how do I get around this? I don't want to be at the beach. You know, it's super cold.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It's cold.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's always drizzling.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You know, not only cold in the city, but it's just the. It's the Pacific Ocean. It's freaking very cold, man. You know, rocks, you know, it's a. It's a. It's a.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

A very.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's. It's a rock surface. Right. And, you know, out here in Florida, you go to the beach and it's like beautiful sand. And I still don't like going. I still want to get around it because it's always a process. But what I really like is you're taking an object such as the, the bay and making it its own character. That just brings so much more depth to the book.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Yeah, it's super fun. And we got to explore a lot of settings that I think we, we wouldn't necessarily have, have explored. And to think about. Once you sort of set that, set that condition up where I'm not going to call it a constraint, but like you set that condition up of like. Okay, we're really going to be engaging with the water here. It sort of, it limits your set of possibilities, but what it does is, forces you to go very deep on those possibilities. Like writing. All creative work is about choices, right? Because you, you come to the page, it's blank. There's literally an infinite number of choices you can make. So the question is, how do you, how do you make. What choices do you make? What order do you put those in? And how do you structure them in such a way that it creates, as my dad said, this sense of mystery, but also a sense of fairness. You want by the time you hit it to, then you want it to feel inevitable and not cheap like we cheated you. It's not like that Scooby Doo moment where the mask gets ripped off and it's, and it's, and it's grandma. Right? Like that. Anybody, anybody can do that. Right. Like, that's not, that's not hard to do. But to get to that point where you're like, where you're at the end and you're like, oh my God, and you look good back, like that Kaiser Soze moment, everything sort of clicks into place. That, that is the, the, the challenge and the pleasure of, of constructing a book like this.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It's all about preparation.

[Jesse Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It takes me as long to plot a book, to plan it as it does to write it. It's about 50. 50. It's about a year long process. Half of that is, is plotting. And you talked before about blocking. I have never experienced writer's block ever. And I think the reason is I'm prepared when I sit down, of course I'm going to change things. I may think I know what I'm going to do, but I have the basic structure and I keep coming back to the construction, the building of a house as a metaphor. Because unless you have that foundation, unless you have that structure, it's going to collapse. It's going to be a house of cards. So it's all about preparation to me and learning to plot. And, you know, for me, I can't speak for just for me, it evolves. I start thinking about stuff. I start making notes. It's general. Then I start making a general outline. Then I do a chapter by chapter. By the time I sit down, I kind of know what I'm doing, or at least I've deluded myself. Then, Owen, you have idea block. You know, there was a famous writer, Robert Parker. He wrote the Spencer series from slightly previous generation. I love Bob. He was like a gruff Boston guy. When Jesse was in college, he, He. He jogged past Bob's house that his light would be on at midnight. So one time we were at this artsy fartsy arts festival and so on, says Mr. Parker, what inspires you to write? He says, I have a contract. So. So that was one. And the other one was, what do you do about. About writer's block? He says, when you call a plumber, does he say, I can't come because I have plumber's block? It's a job. Be a professional. Do your preparation know what you're doing? And I can't speak for anybody else, but I. I don't block because I'm prepared. I don't start it. And Jesse, I think it's the same way. You don't start. So we know, of course it's going to change. It's going to change. You know, you're surprised.

[Jesse Kellerman]

It's that tightrope between, you know, structure and receptivity that we were talking about.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's.

[Jesse Kellerman]

You're always walking that line.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Yeah, I, I love this aspect of the conversation. Not that I didn't like the other aspect, but this is very interesting to me. I loved it. I love it all, trust me. Because there's a lot of people that ask me, how do you do so many shows?

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

Do you ever run anything out of anything to talk about? Are you actually interested in everybody you interview? Yes.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

To the latter. Right. But I never get tired of talking to anybody. I never get. I never run out of ideas because guess what? Just like Doc said, this is my job. This is what I. I love to do this. So I don't get blockage on interviews because I'm generally aware of the outline and the structure, the framework of the conversation I want to have, which, as you guys can tell, is an open conversation. It's the most effective. There's no rapid fire of weird questions. It's just, hey, let's talk about this. And that allows me to stay free and not in that Chinese puzzle, the finger puzzle, within the interview. So there's two different types going on here, right? There's people that, that are doing because they think it's cool and something that, hey, it would be neat if I did this because everybody's doing it and there's those people and trust me, there's a lot of in between. I'm not, I'm not pigeonholing it. But then there's the professionals that take this very seriously that look at the potential storyline, plot it out, outline it, general outline, chapter outline, right? And in my sense it's look at the guest, look at the past, look what they're doing, what, what they are doing now. And how can I craft a conversation that is going to bring not just the publicity to the thing, but also engage the listener to take action on the thing and to feel inspired to take what is said and apply it to their own life. How about that, guys?

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I agree, like people and you're naturally a gregarious guy and you enjoy people. I love people too. I'm very extrovert person. My kids used to have this, this running joke because we'd go to the airport and I'd be end up talking to some stranger. And it was dad made a new friend now that helped me as a psychologist because think about it, I'm in practice and every day I'm meeting strangers and, and they're young strangers, they're kids and teenagers and I have to find a way to engage them and relax them. I didn't find this stressful because I'm really curious. I have, I have a nephew who's a super extrovert. He comes from a family of 11 kids. All the kids and all the parents are these super extroverts. And I said, what's it like when you're going to meet a new person? He goes, I'm really excited because I'm really curious. No social anxiety. It's a blessing to be like that. Not every single.

[Jesse Kellerman]

And I think, Sean, that, you know, there's a real art and skill to enter to interviewing people. We do, when we do research, one of the most important thing is you can read tons of books. The most important thing is to go out and meet the people who do the thing you're trying to learn about and talk to them. And it's again, it's this typewriter you're coming in usually with a set of questions, things you don't understand or don't know about. But that's all. That's never the most interesting thing you learn. The most interesting thing you learn is always going to be something that you didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. And, and, and so, and so, you know, like you said. Are you really interested in all these goods? Yeah, like, like I'm really. I think, I think in part because my job is so static most of the time I'm sitting in a, in a room. I am fascinated by people who do other, other stuff. Even things that I think to the purest person who can feel really boring and banal. Like, like, you know, I think people are often amazed that I, that I really want to know. Like, what do you do all day? One of my, one of my favorite books is, is by Studs Terkel, and it's a book called. I think it's called Working. I read it years ago and it's just. He goes out. He was. Studs Terkel, you know, was this great writer and radio host in Chicago. He died. He died like fairly recently, like 10 years ago or he lived to like, you know, 300 or whatever. So, so, but, but he, he went out and this book is amazing. It's just a series of oral histories or interviews with people who do their jobs. And he talks to CEOs and he talks to parking valets and he talks to dentists and he talk, talks to sanitation workers and what do you do all day? And they start to talk about it and it's, it's completely fascinating because especially when, when someone cares about what they do, like their level of interest in it and they don't get to. And very few people actually get to share that with the world. And I think it's. You're doing both yourself in the world a favor by, by accessing that. So you obviously have to be, as my dad said, a gregarious person, you.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Know, and open to it. One of the famous dad made a new friend stories. We were kids, were younger, we were going to Santa Fe, waiting in the airport, it was jammed up and I. This guy next to me just started talking to me. Well, it turns out he was a guy who repaired oil rigs in Oklahoma. Wow, this was really interesting to me. I had no clue about this and no one had ever asked him what he did. So I just kind of listened and learned a lot about fixing oil rigs. And you know, if I'm going to be a novelist, I'm going to write about all kinds of people. I might work that into my book. Who knows? You know, the more you know about people, the better writer you are. You, you could be a poet like Emily Dickinson and be isolated, but if you're going to be a really good novelist, you have to be engaged with the world, I think, you know, you have to. The more you know, the better writer you are.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

It's so funny. My wife always makes fun of me. Like, you know, she always. She always says to the kids, well, there's that again. Talk to one of the neighbors. I've never seen them before, but, yeah, he probably knows exactly what house they live in. He probably knows exactly what car they drive. But, like, if I'm running the neighborhood, if I'm running one day and I, you know, decide to stop on an interval run, I see somebody, what's going on, man? What's your name? Like, hey, how are you doing, man? Watch. Hey, come watch my car. Next, I'm over there on, on that street. The next time you see him, they say something back. And then you. You start to understand people. But I think the, the beautiful part about life is truly people, right? And, and truly the interaction and understanding other people's walks of life's perspectives. And, and, and we all know that's the, the worst thing we have going on right now in, in our society is we think if someone's different or thinks someone different than us or votes differently than us or looks differently than us, has different sexual preferences in us, then hey, they must be a bad person. And that's not necessary. I mean, I don't even want to say. Not necessarily. That is not fact.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

It's crazy. It's a crazy way to look. You know, it's just. But it's a blessing, Sean, to be extroverted and friendly and to generally like people. I was born that way and, you know, just the way I am. And I.

[Jesse Kellerman]

If.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

If I'm at a. At a restaurant and a server, a waiter or waitress comes over and they go, how are you today? I go, fine, how are you? I'm not bullshitting them. I'm not patronizing them. They're people too. I don't want them to feel like they're just slaves coming. Everybody needs to feel important for what they do. There was. I'll give you a good example. There was a famous rabbi named Moshe Feinstein who is the head of yeshiva in, in New York. He was a gentle, wonderful man, and he was one of the top Judaic scholars of his day. Now he would get driven around and he'd go across the, you know, the turnpike. And you had a choice of doing the easy pass or going to a person in a booth. And he told his students, you always go to the person because those people need to feel important. Never use easy pass.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

That's a great point.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

That stuck with me.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

That's a great point.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I don't, I'm not trying to make like I'm some.

[Jesse Kellerman]

That's why he was late to every single meeting, by the way. He was always.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Yeah, he's probably late all the time, but. But the point is that it's just, you know, he was thinking about the human element, and it's not a matter of being soppy or anything. And. No, if you're going to be a psychologist, like, I would. He should like people, don't you think?

[Sean (Interviewer)]

I would think so. I would think so.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Some writers are friendly, some are misanthropic. Some, Some. Some of them, you, you know, you, you would have a devil of a time interviewing them, but that's not us.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

So I've had, I've had an absolute great run of authors that I've had on my show. Every one of them has been engaging. Every one of them has been in such an interesting human being, and I just love seeing how their mind works. Right. Because it's just, to me, it's interesting. Like, hey, it's. It's fun to see how other people think differently than me. But. But look, guys, I, I, you know, I know we're running out of time, but I just, I'm so grateful that you guys were willing to come on and share a little bit about your history. And in the new book Coyote Hills coming out, and that's October 25th, guys, so make sure you pick it up. You know, I'm, I'm. I'm specifically interested to read this book because I always like things that keep my heart rate going. And it seems as though this is going to be one of those novels, and you guys are amazing, amazing guys. I would love to continue to be in contact with you guys, and I definitely take California trips to record, so.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Good.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You know, do me a favor, Sean.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Read it and let us know what you think. I, I'd be. I really want to know the feedback. 1000% succeeded in what we set out to do. I think we did. I'm feeling good about it, but, yeah.

[Jesse Kellerman]

I feel very good about it. And I think we're very grateful also to. For the opportunity to come on and, you know, talk about the book and talk about our process. Like I said before, you know, a lot of it is just sitting in a room. So this is a very, this is like a relief. You know, it's fun to get together with, with other people. Even if it's, even if it's virtual, we'll be able to talk, talk about this stuff because it's, it's, it's what we do all day. And just like, you know, I think we're interested in other, other people. I think other people are interested in what we do. And, and, and it's great to be able to try and share and encapsulate that for, for, for a wider audience. And, and we're grateful to you. This was awesome. It's so much fun. You did an amazing job.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

So thank you.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

Thank you.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

You guys did too.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

One thing you guys have in common, he deadlifts £600. I, you could probably do that kind of stuff too. I, I, I just, it's not me. No. Yeah, he's a monster.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

I'm not freakishly strong. Hey, so I figured out what's going on here, okay? I figured out why all the books were so successful. Why, why you're so chiseled, Jeremy, and can lift 600 pounds, brother. You're hypnotized your whole life, he's hypnotized you. That guy's like, that's like modern day warfare. This son of a gun has hypnotized everybody in his life. I, you know what? If I, if I go on this run where I just blow up and, and everything's working, I'm gonna go back to. What changed in your life, Sean? Well, I had this interview with the Kellermans, and I'm pretty sure Dr. Jonathan hypnotized me during the damn conversation.

[Jonathan Kellerman]

I don't do it anymore. No, but he's just one of those guys. He's always in freakishly strong. My dad was the same way. Skips a generation. I'm strong. I'm not like that. Not like that.

[Sean (Interviewer)]

I love it. Guys, thank you again so much. You guys have been a great pleasure and for the audience. In all seriousness, guys, that you're listening and watching, I don't have people on my show that I don't believe in, and I don't promote things that I don't feel create massive amounts of value. So. Hey, check out coyote hills everywhere. October 25th. Read the book and let me know what you think. And until next time, everybody stay determined.