The Determined Society with Shawn French

Episode: Coyote Hills: Kellermans on Crime, Family & Legacy

Recorded: October 6, 2025 | Host: Shawn French
Guests: Jonathan Kellerman & Jesse Kellerman

Episode Overview

This episode of The Determined Society dives deep into the creative partnership, family dynamics, and literary craft of father-son bestselling authors Jonathan and Jesse Kellerman. The conversation moves beyond the surface of their new thriller, Coyote Hills—sixth in the Clay Edison crime series—to examine why authentic character development, curiosity about people, and an openness to creative flow set their work apart. The Kellermans offer sharp insights into the realities of both family collaboration and sustained creative productivity, all delivered with warmth, sharp humor, and practical wisdom.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family & Creative Collaboration

• Bonding through Work: Jonathan and Jesse reflect on the rare privilege of working together as family, emphasizing that their relationship comes before any professional collaboration.
  • Jonathan: "You love your children, you're not gonna compete with them...I can honestly say in all these books, honestly, we've never had an unpleasant syllable between us." (05:04)
  • Jesse: "The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will continue after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does." (02:58)
• The Origin Story: Their first joint book began serendipitously when Jesse picked up an unfinished manuscript from Jonathan's desk and suggested they tackle it together.
  • They compare their process to "playing in a band"—requiring trust, mutual skill, and joy in creative exchange. (03:38)

2. Creative Process: Structure vs. Spontaneity

• Working Styles: Both Kellermans blend discipline with receptiveness. They stress extensive planning (outlining, character backstory, plotting) balanced with openness to new ideas as they emerge.
  • Jonathan: "You have to be open to spontaneity and new experience ... there's a limit how much you can plan things." (10:12)
  • Jesse: "There is no surer way to choke off your creativity than to say, 'I'm going to be creative now.' ... It happens in a state of relaxation." (11:03)
• Flow States & Non-Verbal Creativity:
  • Jesse draws from his theater background, explaining that collaboration and flow come naturally when ego is set aside (06:20).
  • Both pursue other hobbies (music, cooking, painting, gym) to rest the "verbal" part of the brain, finding that non-writing creativity aids their fiction (16:41).
  • Jesse: "For my dad and, and I think for me, our brains are very busy places. ... So like, things that enable you to temporarily step outside that stream can be very healthy." (17:56)

3. Depicting the Writer’s Life: Myths vs. Reality

• Pop Culture vs. Truth:
  • They note how writers are inaccurately portrayed as either glamorous or dysfunctional in media (e.g., Limitless)—a contrast to the day-to-day grind of actual writing (27:12).
  • Jesse: "Writing life is about ... sitting down in a chair day after day and letting your brain do what it's supposed to do and then going back and fixing the mistakes and polishing it. There's nothing romantic or particularly interesting." (24:30)
  • The key is professionalism and treating writing like a job, not a romantic fantasy (22:27).
• Advice for Aspiring Creators: Focus on the craft, not fame or book publicity—ideas are cheap, but execution is everything (25:22).

4. Crafting "Coyote Hills" & the Clay Edison Series

• Character Evolution: They consciously write protagonists who grow and change over a series—unlike the static heroes in classic detective fiction.
  • Jonathan: "We want to write real characters who change over time...it's a novel like any other novel based on character, but the catalyst is a crime." (29:31)
• Setting as Character:
  • The Bay Area, especially the East Bay, is brought to life as an integral "character" in the series. Coyote Hills uses the varied local geography—especially its often-overlooked relationship with the Bay—as a thematic and plot element (37:25; 39:14).
  • Jesse: "The bay itself is a really important character. ... What does it mean that we have this whole area built around this hugely important natural feature? What does it hide?" (37:25)
• Plotting & Fair Play:
  • Surprises and plot twists are key, but readers must always have enough honest clues—“you have to play fair.” (36:26)
  • Jonathan: "It's all about preparation ... it takes me as long to plot a book, to plan it, as it does to write it. ... Unless you have that foundation, unless you have that structure, it's going to collapse." (40:37)
  • They discuss their meticulous process: starting with general notes, evolving to detailed outlines, then drafting chapters. (41:55)

5. Curiosity, Openness & the Human Element

• Why Authentic Characters Matter:
  • Jesse and Jonathan seek to understand not just law enforcement, but the everyday realities of all professions to bring three-dimensional characters to their books.
  • Jesse: "Understanding the reality of what somebody actually does day to day is so helpful for, I think, creating characters who have a full life and are not these cartoons." (27:58)
• Curiosity as a Creative Engine:
  • Both men are natural extroverts, finding ideas everywhere by engaging strangers and learning about their unique experiences.
  • Jonathan: "The more you know about people, the better writer you are ... you have to be engaged with the world." (47:45)
  • Jesse: "People are often amazed that I really want to know: What do you do all day? ... Especially when someone cares about what they do." (45:42)
• Human Connection: The episode closes on a warm note about empathy, respect, and seeking connection in an increasingly divided world. (49:51; 50:05)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Collaboration as Family:
  • “The relationship preceded the collaboration. It will continue after the collaboration ends, assuming it ever does. Who knows?”
    — Jesse Kellerman (02:58)
• On Professionalism in Writing:
  • “Those of us who keep doing it are professionals. We attack it professionally … it's a job. It is a great job, but it is a job.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (22:27)
  • “Writing life is about ... sitting down in a chair day after day and, and, and like letting your brain do, do what it's supposed to do ... There's nothing romantic or particularly interesting.”
    — Jesse Kellerman (24:30)
• On the Craft of Mystery:
  • “With a surprise and with a plot twist, you have to play fair, in my opinion. It has to make sense, and that's a real challenge.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (36:26)
• On Setting as Character:
  • “The bay itself is a really important character. ... Even if you live here, it's a thing that gets in the way when you’re trying to get someplace else ... What kind of mysteries are attached to the coast?”
    — Jesse Kellerman (37:25)
• On the Human Element:
  • “The more you know about people, the better writer you are ... you could be a poet like Emily Dickinson and be isolated, but if you’re going to be a really good novelist, you have to be engaged with the world.”
    — Jonathan Kellerman (47:45)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Clay Edison Series Intro & Premise – 00:00–00:55, 29:51–30:18
• Father-Son Dynamic & Collaboration Origin Story – 01:55–05:52
• Creative Process, Flow, and Relaxation – 11:03–19:45
• Reality vs. Myth of the Writer’s Life – 24:03–27:02, 27:10–29:31
• Plotting, Preparation, and Handling Writer’s Block – 40:35–42:40
• Setting: The Bay Area & Coyote Hills’ Themes – 31:05–41:55
• Curiosity, Interviewing, and Everyday Humanity – 45:42–48:38
• Empathy, Human Connection & Closing – 49:51–50:58

Tone & Atmosphere

Steeped in warmth and mutual respect, the episode flows with candid humor and thoughtful asides. The Kellermans openly discuss the gritty realities and subtle joys of both family and writing life, seamlessly combining wisdom with practical takeaways for listeners—whether aspiring writers, fans, or the simply curious.

Summary Takeaways

• Genuine collaboration in creativity is rooted in relationship, not ego or competition.
• Sustained writing success demands professionalism, curiosity about humanity, and disciplined preparation—balanced by creative openness.
• Complex, evolving characters and settings grounded in real experience provide depth, relatability, and surprise.
• Writers are craftspeople—the work is often unglamorous but deeply rewarding for those who are drawn to it.
• Human connection—both in fiction and life—is built on mutual respect and curiosity.

Coyote Hills releases October 25th—readers who crave authentic, unpredictable mysteries set in a vividly rendered Bay Area will find much to love.

For listeners wishing to be inspired by creativity, family, and the art of seeing the world deeply—this episode is not to be missed.