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Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset
Fired Up: The Anti-Good Girl Playbook with Shannon Watts
00:42:45
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- [00:00]
A
What spurs people to figure out what their fire is? You know, for some, it's intuition. For others, it's faith. For me, it was anger.
- [00:09]
B
Ditto, my friend, Ditto.
- [00:11]
A
When I started Moms Demand action back in 2012, I got death threats. I got threats of sexual violence. I had to figure out how to endure that and to keep going. When you decide to live differently, there will be blowback. If I do what I want in my life, I'm a bad mom. I interviewed over 70 women for this book. You know, the most common deathbed regret in the world. World is that you didn't live a life that's authentic to you. When I asked each of these women I interviewed, almost all of them said that they would get to the end of their lives and feel like they spent too much time pursuing what they wanted at the expense of their children.
- [00:51]
B
So, Ms. Shannon Watts. So you new book out. New York Times bestseller. It's everywhere. You're doing press on it. It's been inspirational to see on the social platforms. But it's called Fired up, and from what I understand, it's a book about. That helps women ignite their fire no matter what stage or age in life, that they are removing limitations and just tapping into their inner power. So talk to the audience about that. Teach us about this book.
- [01:19]
A
Yeah. You know, what I realized throughout my career and my activism is that there's a thread through all of it, and it's really summoning the audacity of other women. I see women with so much, much promise and potential and brilliant ideas, and I want them to pursue them. And because I think so often women are trained from a young age to fulfill their obligations, but men are taught to fulfill their desires that we get stymied. We sometimes mistake what I call false fires for our actual desire. Or we believe we don't have a purpose or a desire, and it just becomes of life kind of on autopilot. That's how I found myself in my. My mid-30s. And I've seen it play out over and over again. And what I really want women to do is wake up every day and ask themselves the question, what do I want? And we know why we don't do that. Right? We see all the obstacles, and we realize it's easier to not do that because if we did, what would happen? Governments would topple, systems would fall. Family systems would. Would fail. Right. So we know there's a lot riding on the way society tells us we should be. But what I want women to do is to leave A legacy. And that means living differently.
- [02:40]
B
I love that. I love that. Thanks for sharing. You know, it's, it's funny to me, I want to ask this question because I mean, for a lot of women it could be like you said systematically and you know, governments, things will topple. But for some women, do you think it's more of just fear of being selfish and taking care of themselves and you know, they, they look at their children, they look at their husbands and they feel that they have to be everything for those people. Because I can, I can tell you my wife is very selfless to the point of, you know, not giving back to herself and doing things that you, she truly enjoys because the kids need her or she feels that I need her. And, and you know, I see that as a massive problem in society. So I just want to get your take on that.
- [03:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I say government systems would topple, institutions would fail, families would fall apart, there's fear. That is fear. Right. We don't kind of want to upset the apple cart. But I think even more than that, and I talk a lot about this in the book, is that we fear blowback. Women have these triggers of guilt and shame. Guilt says we did a bad thing, shame says we are bad. And when those, when those feelings are triggered, we go into behavior patterns that I refer to as extinguishers. For some people, that can be people pleasing. For others, it might be perfectionism. For others, it might mean martyrdom or even a desire to disappear. There are all these things that we do that are a form of self sabotage because we don't want to have blowback. And I tell the story in the book of when I started Moms Demand action back in 2012, you know, the blowback that I got from extremists, I got death threats, I got threats of sexual violence to me, to my family. And I had to figure out how to endure that and to keep going. And you may not have that kind of blowback, but you're going to get a snarky comment in the kids pickup line or your mother in law might say something about an event you missed. Honest. When you, you decide to live differently, that may mean doing more, it may mean doing less, but when you do things differently, there will be blowback. And it is completely predictable and really important to remember that it's not personal.
- [05:00]
B
You know, I, I love hearing that because I think everybody's worried about blowback in some area. Right? I mean, you know, I'm a man, I can never claim to know exactly what a woman goes through. And I think it's criminal for a man to sit there and say, like, I know what you're going through. We don't. Right. And, and, and, and also, you know, on the flip side, women don't know exactly what goes on with men in their minds.
- [05:23]
A
Right.
- [05:23]
B
But from what I'm hearing is that everybody has the fear of blowback. When I started my show, my fear of blowback was the people that knew me from the past kind of coming out and saying, dude, who the heck are you to even do this? You're an idiot. You know, we know you for who you are.
- [05:39]
A
We.
- [05:39]
B
Or for who I was. Right. And again, we've all. We all go through seasons where maybe we're not the best versions of myself, of ourselves. And for me, that was my late 20s and early 30s. It was really bad. But from the standpoint of what you're talking about, the blowback, even from a granular level, because, like, as you said, some women aren't going to get it from, you know, the national. You're an activist, right? You're what. What's the name of your mom?
- [06:06]
A
Demand Action.
- [06:07]
B
Moms Demand Action. Right. So when you put yourself on that platform, it's a big platform, even on socials, you're going to have people coming at you with the certain death threats, sexual violence threats, and threats against your family because you're a public figure. But for most people, their fear is to get judged by the people they love most.
- [06:27]
A
Absolutely. It's so true. And it. It's interesting because I interviewed over 70 women for this book. And, you know, the most common deathbed regret in the world is that you didn't live a life that's authentic to you. And so when I asked each of these women I interviewed, most of whom were moms, what they were worried their deathbed regret would be, I thought they would all say that, that they. That they would get to the end of their lives and feel like they didn't live a life authentic to them. None of them said that. Almost all of them said that they would get to the end of their lives and feel like they spent too much time pursuing what they wanted at the expense of their children, which is so fascinating because it goes back to this guilt and shame, you know, that we feel. And a lot of that society puts on us, our loved ones put on us. We put on us. I interview a woman named Eve Rodsky, who wrote the book Fair Play, about gender equity when it comes to household duties and work and she says, we become C I, Y O O, which is complicit in your own oppression. We start to believe the things that either others tell us or we tell ourselves. And that could include, if I do what I want in my life, I'm a bad mom. And I also interview experts who say nothing could be further from the truth. That really, children need two things. One, they need to know that their mothers in particular have other interests in their lives besides them because it's a lot of pressure on kids to be their parents whole world. And the other thing they say is when you pursue what you want, you set an example for your children of how you want them to live as they. When they're adults. Right? We don't. We would never say, I want my kids to be completely shouldered with all these obligations and to feel like they can't get out from underneath them and never really pursue what lights them up. We would never say that. And yet that's how we live.
- [08:27]
B
It's a great point. Right? I mean, I just, I. I just keep thinking of my wife because that's my only basis, right? And she's an amazing wife, an amazing mother. And a lot of times, you know, like, as I mentioned, she'll put things of her own on the wayside because of the obligations to the kids or to the household. And when I look at that, it really does break my heart. And as a man, it's really hard to navigate because I don't know how to help.
- [08:52]
A
Right.
- [08:53]
B
I'm a present husband. I'm a present father. Yes, I record a lot, but I'm home for dinner every night. You know, I, you know, you spoke about generals. You know, like, I. I do all the meals. You know, I do the lunches and the snacks for school because I want to give back. And I enjoy doing that stuff with my children in the morning and, you know, giving them the hot breakfast, giving them the lunch when they're home and the dinner. That's. That's the thing for me. Like, I don't believe in a gender role. I never have. Well, yeah, I mean, I just think that, like, listen, I want. I want my daughters. I have three children. I have a son and two daughters, okay? I want my daughters to see how a man is supposed to serve and love them by me loving and serving my wife. Now, hey, sometimes I fail, right? I'm. I'm a human being, right? I'm not. I'm not perfect. But from your, from your standpoint of, you know, we want to show these children how to live and how to go chase their dreams and if they're stuck and in a pattern or a pigeonhole of like, hey, you're just going to go through life to serve, you know, your, your husband or your children, I, how is that fulfilling? You know, that just, it's, it's very unfulfilling. And I can go back to Shannon, I want to share this with you because I, months ago I was on the Piers Morgan show Uncensored, and you know, we talked about the Netflix series Adolescence and it's talked about misogyny. And then there was gender roles included and, you know, feminism got brought into it. And I made a comment on the show that I don't believe a woman's job is just to be a stay at home mom. I really don't. I, I, I don't believe that. I believe that every single household has a dynamic. And if that dynamic is that, and that is what the woman chooses and it fulfills her and ignites her soul, then please, by all means do that. But if you're, if your ignition comes from being out in the world and working and, and helping people or. My wife's a teacher. Right. So I, I, I mentioned that I love the fact that my wife gets to go teach Spanish to high school kids. And that was her dream. She left a massive sales career making a ton of money to go teach school. And she is more fulfilled now, maybe a little more stressed, but more fulfilled. Right. Than she was just selling a product or a software. And the blowback on me was, is I was a covert feminist. I'm a feminist. And, and I'm, I'm not, I'm just like, hey, I love people doing what they want to do. Why does it have to be defined? Why am I less of a man? Because I'm okay with my wife going out there and working.
- [11:22]
A
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It, you have a happier, healthier relationship, you have a happier, healthier mother. And you know, I tell, as I said, the stories of 70 women in the book and many of them are stay at home moms, but that doesn't mean you're going to get totally rid of those obligations in any scenario that we're talking about. It's more about how do you make room to pursue the other things that light you up so that you aren't just the one identity. Right. This is what I am. I am only a mother because those things change. Right. You become an empty nester eventually. You become a retiree eventually. Want to make sure you have other things in Your life that. That light you up. And, you know, I tell the story of. Of one woman. It's actually John Fetterman's wife, Giselle Fetterman, who decided in her 40s that she wanted to become a firefighter. She had always wanted to be a firefighter. When she came to this country from Brazil, she couldn't speak English, but she would go down the street every day and help the firemen wash their truck. And it brought her such joy, and it made her always want to be a firefighter. And so as her husband was running for Senate, even though, you know, you could have said that should be everything she's focused on, she went to get trained to be a firefighter, and she has put out dozens and dozens of fires since then in her spare time. And so this is really just what it's about, is figuring out, how do you find something that's for you.
- [12:53]
B
I agree. And I think it helps a relationship in the house, right? Helps the marriage, and it helps the children see a dynamic of their mother and father coming together, but also living, I don't want to say a separate life, because that's not what it's about, but. But doing their separate things and going out there, contributing to. To society in such a positive way. I want my girls to be driven by my wife's drive. I want them to see how much of an amazing professional and human being she is. And I just think it's really sad when. When, you know, mothers or just women in general say, like, I'm going to temper this a little bit, and I'm. I'm just going to be here for him. And. And I, hey, look, I mean, if that's their sole desire, then, like I said, neato, go for it. But I surely didn't marry my wife or date my wife, because, I mean, hey, you're gonna be a great housewife one day. I'm like, man, you push me to be better. You make me me. Right? In so many ways. So I just think it's. It's super important for women to look under the COVID of what they really want and have that conversation and drive that narrative in the home.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah, I totally agree with you. And you were talking before about, you know, not being happy, just, like, selling widgets. And that's where I found myself. You know, I had a career in corporate communications, and I found myself, you know, in my. My late 30s, realizing I wasn't in a career that I was inspired by. I wasn't in a marriage that was working. I was in an emergency room covered head to toe in eczema. And what I figured out from that visit was that a lot, you know, my, my, my dissatisfaction was sort of burning me from the inside out. And I needed to figure out a different way forward. I didn't want to do this for the rest of my life. And I write in the book about how I couldn't afford a therapist. I couldn't confide my husband because that was part of the problem. And so I just began to journal and it really provided this roadmap forward for me. And I ended up leaving that marriage. We co parented well together, you know, for over several decades. And I also decided to leave my job and I kind of started all over again. And I spent five years figuring out who I was and what I wanted, and I ended up remarrying. And that's when I ended up starting Mom's Demand Action. And that's what I talk about in the book is there is a formula for what I call living on fire. And living on fire is just really looking at two things. What is limiting you and what is calling you. Right. And figuring out the formula is basically your abilities, your values, and your desires come together. It's like alchemy when that happens and you have to practice it a lot. It's a discipline that you're going to do throughout your life. But for me, in 2012, when I started Moms Demand Action, you know, my abilities, where I had a career in corporate communications, I knew how to build a brand and tell a story. My values were wanting to protect my family and my community. And those change throughout your life. And my desire was to do it with this army of women, right. Who wanted to protect their kids and keep them safe. So I think it's so important for each of us to understand what are our values, abilities, and desires and how do they make me different from everyone else?
- [16:07]
B
I love it. You mentioned something in that, that monologue about sitting in an emergency room with eczema head to toe and realizing that was, you know, it burning you from the inside out. Right. I think a lot of times when we create something so amazing like your activist, your activism, your, your books and everything like that comes from a source of pain, Right. And we're able to get that out and heal ourselves from the inside out, but also serve others. I just. What are your thoughts on a lot of amazing things being created out of a source of pain?
- [16:45]
A
Yeah, I, I think when something insults your soul and, and I talk about what spurs people to figure out what their fire is. You know, for some, it's intuition. For others, it's faith. For me, it was anger.
- [17:00]
B
Ditto, my friend. Ditto.
- [17:01]
A
I was so outraged that, you know, 20 children and six educators could be killed inside an elementary school that I had to act. And, you know, I grew up in the 1980s as a teen, and I was so inspired by Mothers Against Drunk Driving. I had seen them create amazing things, you know, in less than a decade. And I thought, okay, we need that for gun safety in this country, to restore the responsibilities that should go along with gun rights. And that was pain. I mean, I. I went to bed the night of the Sandy Hook school shooting devastated. And at some point in the middle of the night, that devastation turned into abject rage. And when I woke up the next day, I had to do something. And that's when I created a Facebook page that became Moms Demand Action. And so many other women, complete strangers across the country, had the same idea I did and reached out to me and said, I want to do this where I live. And we were all in incredible pain and knew that we had to do something. We had to funnel into something.
- [18:01]
B
It's really scary. You know, I always. I say this a lot. The scariest moment I have every single day is dropping my kids off at school.
- [18:08]
A
Yep.
- [18:09]
B
Because you just never know. And to me, to your point, the rage of, you know, educators dying, children dying, it's. It's nonsensical.
- [18:19]
A
It is. It's an outrage. And. And we are the only parents in the developed world who have that fear.
- [18:25]
B
That that is true. Funny story. Not funny, but just a story is my wife's from Ecuador, and, you know, we. We recently went there for vacation, and I've never been to South America. And I had heard war stories, you know, from her, about growing up and things that have happened to her, her classmates and things like that. I was so scared to go, right? And I said to her, I'm like, I really don't want to go. She goes, why? I go, well, all these things you tell me. And she goes, look where you live. Look where you live, Sean. Like, really look around. You know, you have school shootings. You have, you know, people getting ran over in the middle of New Orleans. You know, it happens here in America. And. And then the one thing she said, she was. I can tell you this. There's no school shootings in Ecuador. You know, children aren't dying like that. And so it really brings a sense of perspective. That's a point where you're Just saying. The only developmental developed country in the world that their children are dying by going to learn and to be educated.
- [19:27]
A
Yep.
- [19:29]
B
It's just crazy to me how much has your experience, and I think we've touched on it already, but I want to, you know, reiterate on it, of your experience and in your own life and going through helped you be that beacon of light for moms and other women across the world.
- [19:46]
A
You know, I, I, my, one of my memories as a nine year old is of my dad giving me a T shirt that said girls can do anything boys can do. And I wasn't excited about it. I was shocked. I had no idea that society didn't think girls were equal to boys. And it was such a turning point for me. Like, I woke up to, oh, wow, I am a girl, and therefore I'm considered less than. And I grew up in upstate New York, in Rochester, where, you know, on field trips we would always go to the homes or the places activists had passed through, everyone from Susan B. Anthony to Harriet Tubman to Frederick Douglass. And we were taught that those were people that we should emulate and admire. And I think that that combined with my, my love of writing and journalism, I mean, it was just really where I grew up and how I GRE up that when the Sandy Hook school shooting happened, all those things came into play. You know, my, my degree in journalism, my love of, of activists, my belief that in a democracy, one person or just a few people can make a difference. And I talk a lot about the fact that I'm not a unicorn. I think a lot of women that I travel around the country and meet think, oh, well, you're different. You were born to be a leader. You, you must have something special about you. I am not a unicorn. I grew up with severe untreated adhd. I barely made it through high school and college. I had a debilitating fear of public speaking. I didn't know anything about gun violence or organizing or, you know, really even the legislative process. And yet it turns out I was the perfect person for the job because of those values, abilities, and desires I talked about. They just came into alignment and helped me to, to be a leader. And that's really what I want women to take away. I mean, we are all leaders.
- [21:53]
B
I love it. A lot of things that you struggled with, untreated adhd, barely getting through high school and college. Hey, I'm your twin, right? I mean, untreated, still untreated. I, I've learned to channel it. I learned to channel it. Right. I also know it's my biggest superpower. Same like, dude, that's, that's my jam, you know, because I'm able to be in so many different places at one time, but when I get really fixated on something, hyper folk, I'm like, I'm unstoppable, dude. I'm Rain Man.
- [22:24]
A
Yeah.
- [22:24]
B
Like, I'll only think about that one thing, you know, that's what I did.
- [22:27]
A
With gun violence prevention for 11 years as a full time volunteer, seven days a week. I was obsessed, crazy.
- [22:36]
B
You mentioned Rochester. I worked. I started my corporate career at paychecks.
- [22:44]
A
Really?
- [22:44]
B
I did.
- [22:45]
A
That's so interesting.
- [22:47]
B
Yeah, I spent a lot of time up there. Love that place.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah.
- [22:50]
B
You know, went to Niagara Falls for the first time up there, you know, built a career and it led me to this, you know, so go Rochester. Rochester.
- [22:59]
A
Yay, Rochester.
- [23:01]
B
Beautiful place. But no, I just, I just love what you're doing. Can you, can you think of a time recently since this book has come out? Because there's been a lot of, a lot of buzz about the book, and rightfully so. A lot of press. Have you had a lot of women reach out to you that have read the book and told you what it's meant to them and how you've helped them?
- [23:23]
A
Yeah, that is the most rewarding part of this. I'm also an introvert. And so for me to go on the road I was in, I've been in like 20 cities and I have more to go. It takes a lot out of me, but it so fills my cup, these conversations that I have with women about, you know, some say to me, I just ended a marriage, I'm just had my kids go to college, I just retired. I mean, you know, the archetype is sort of college and high school and college age women who are figuring out their path forward. They don't want to go down the wrong path, so they want to figure out what they want. Young women who are either busy with family or career but still want to carve out something for themselves. Women like me, who just are suddenly empty nesters and have more time to pursue what they want. And then women who are retired and beyond who have all this wisdom to bring to the world. And so the stories that they tell me, you know, I told you I interviewed 70 women. And one of them was a woman named Carol Frick who wanted to be an author her whole life. She ended up being a phys ed teacher to pay the bills for 30 years. She retired, she went to volunteer in an Animal shelter. Came up with the idea of a couple falling in love at an animal shelter. Taught herself finally how to write a book. Create dialogue, structure, chapters, the whole thing. She writes a book and then decides, I deserve to be published. I don't want to self publish. She sent that manuscript to 218 publishing houses and was rejected 218 times. Finally on the 219th time, a man who, with dogs, who loves dogs, gave her a book deal. She became a published author in her 70s. You know, and I just, what I really love are these stories from women who know that it's not too old. You're, you know, you're not too old, it's not too late, you can still pursue what you want. That's the amazing thing about our generation. Our moms didn't have that opportunity. So the stories that women tell me about how they're using the book in something like 30 states. Women have taken the book and they've started creating real life empowerment groups, political, professional empowerment. Yeah. And then in September we're starting something called Fire Starter University because I don't think you can live on fire on your own. So anyone who has bought the book can register for free. And it's a year long online program. Just, you know, these are your people. So far over 800 women have shown up. These are the people who will help you figure out how you can come alive.
- [25:48]
B
It's amazing. So a couple things out of that you mentioned, your favorite part about doing this is, is hearing from the women that you have helped. I think anything worth doing has to come from great purpose and love. But at the, at the very, very tip of the spear has to be to serve.
- [26:08]
A
Yep.
- [26:09]
B
That, that, that's to me is so important. And that's why, you know, you're starting to see these, these groups in 30 states, starting these, starting these organizations like you've, you're ins, you've inspired more than half of America. Have you thought of that?
- [26:25]
A
That's very kind. I, I mean I, I find so much joy in helping women figure out, you know, what it is they want. I mean women who have run for office that I've worked with, you know, women who've asked for promotion, women who've left difficult relationships like whatever that is. It's so inspiring to me.
- [26:44]
B
Yeah, I mean it truly is. Right. And it's something that you can, when you look at your body of work, you can hold so close to your chest, be like, that was out of love. And I'm inspiring love. I'm Inspiring change. Because even to the point of the 70 year old published author, that woman, like, I want the audience to really understand this because there's people listening right now and saying, like, I had this dream, it's too late because of xyz. There's all these limitations that they're placing on themselves because of the certain blessings that they have. Maybe it's a husband that they love and maybe it's these beautiful children. Those are not your reasons not to be successful. That is your purpose, that is your why. To show them that anything is possible that's leading from the front, right? So the audience like, guys, if you're sitting there on your hands, you need to go pick up this book. I don't care if you're male or female, go pick up this book. You know, fired up. Because the reality is if a woman who taught for 30 years just to pay the bills and got 218 no's to get that one, yes, guys. And now she's a public author, published author, like, isn't it worth the risk? Just starts. Why do you think people don't start other than the limiting?
- [27:57]
A
I think it's, you know, some of it is what we talked about, this fear of blowback. They don't want to fail. I think women in particular, you know, there are so many men who fail publicly, everyone from Beto o' Rourke to Elon Musk, and they just continue to rise. And women, when they fail are sort of expected to disappear. And I interview a woman in the book who ran for office twice in Texas and lost both times. And it takes a lot of bravery, a lot of courage to run for office, to put yourself out there. And she said when she lost, like people were embarrassed for her. And she became this living, breathing example of what happens when you fail. And instead of disappearing, she took that experience and ended up running an organization in the state that helps train other women to run for office. She can use her experience losing to help them win. And that to me is what it is all about. You know, I, as I said, I knew nothing about what I was doing when I started MomStream in action. It shouldn't have succeeded, but I think I always had this mindset of what is the worst that can happen? I could fail. And then we all just go back to our normal lives and say, we tried, but you're never going to get where you want to go if you don't take that risk.
- [29:11]
B
So you enlightened me on a, on a subject that I want to talk about real quick. Because I don't see things as a lot of how other people see them. Right, but you said, like, when a man fails, no one pays attention to it. Right. They just keep rising, they keep going. When a woman fails, people are embarrassed for that woman. They shrink and they disappear. I see failure as necessary, whether you're male or female. Without failure, we cannot grow. And that has become like a big F word. But I didn't realize that women, when they fail, could potentially feel like they need to disappear.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah, absolutely. There's this pressure. Sometimes people talk about an imposter syndrome, right? But so few women are in so many spaces. If you look at, for example, elected officials, women only make up 25% of the 500,000 elected positions in this country. Women are less than 10% of Fortune 1000 CEOs. Like, we're not in a lot of the rooms where the policies that are being made, we have a role in that. And as the saying goes, if you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu. And so often women find themselves on the menu. And this idea that we should feel guilt or shame if we fail, I think is very ingrained in us. And it's easier to just not try. When I started Mom's Man Action, I knew that we were going to lose a lot. You know, when you take on a special interest, you're not going to always win. And we created this mantra of losing forward, seeing failure as feedback. So maybe you lost a legislative battle, but what did you learn to win the war? Maybe you grew your chapter. Maybe you have more relationships with state lawmakers. Maybe you know more about an issue. But whatever it is, it can position you to win the next time. And if you think about losing that way, you realize you're sort of always winning.
- [31:09]
B
My wife sent me this video years ago. We both worked for Paycheck. She was over in Miami. I was over here in Fort Myers. And it was this. This compilation of all these famous people talking about failure. And it, you know, had Will Smith, had Justin Timberlake, and like, the first five, maybe three and a half to five minutes was absolute white flame fire for me. And it just talked about, like, fail forward. Right? And that's what you're talking about, right, is like, when we see failure, we have to look at a sense of, like, fail early, fail often, fail forward. And that was something that Will Smith said in that compilation. And it really made me think, like, you know, where we may fail or fall as a man or a woman, it's really all information. Right. And what can we gain from it? And what do we. Not just informationally, but also, like, spiritually. And how do we grow from it? Because every failure that I've had in building this show, a failure as a father or a husband, because we all have moments of failure. Like, those are the moments where I can sit there and say, wow, like, I learned this about me or I learned this about my wife or my children, or I learned this about business. Now I know next time to do it this way and ab test it right to where if I'm not out there trying and if women aren't out there trying and working hard regardless of the outcome or the potential outcome, how do we learn about ourselves? How do we move forward?
- [32:54]
A
I think the other piece of what you're talking about isn't just pushing past the failure or getting over the fear of failure, but it's also, as the saying goes, building the plane as you fly it. I meet so many women who say I have to cross every T and dot every I before I can get started. And you know what that is? That is a delay. If I waited to know everything there was to know about gun violence or organizing or the legislative process, I still wouldn't have started. Moms to man action.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah.
- [33:24]
A
And instead, me and a bunch of women who I didn't know from across the country decided, if the worst thing that happens is that we fail, so be it. But we are going to just build a plane as we fly it. We're going to learn as we go, and we're going to make mistakes along the way. Knowing that we can trust and support one another and try to keep going forward, that's all you can do. But to say, oh, I don't know enough or I'm not the right person or it's not the right time. I mean, there's so many ways that we sort of back to this idea of being ciyoo. Right. Complicit in your own oppression. The book is full of exercises and journal prompts to really not only figure out what your abilities, values, and desires are, but also to figure out what are the blocks, what are the obstacles that are preventing you from going after what you want. And it could be very big. It could be starting an organization or going back to school, but it could be very small. Just having a difficult conversation that you've been wanting to have, you know, it doesn't have to be huge.
- [34:25]
B
You're speaking my language when you're talking about building the plane as you fly It. Right. I think all too often many people, like you said, are delaying, delaying, but they're masking it in such a way that it's. I'm just preparing.
- [34:36]
A
Yeah.
- [34:37]
B
What is your message to the woman sitting there right now saying, I don't agree with you, Shannon. I need to be informed. If I'm not informed, then I can't be effective. What would you say to them right now? That they're sitting on their hands, utilizing the delay as their actual reason?
- [34:57]
A
Again, I think this is the purpose of the exercises, to sort of like, decide what is. What is real and what is a bit of a delay. But jumping in and getting started with time is finite. Life is finite. And I talk about this in the book. You know, we always think, oh, we can put this off until another day. But the reality is we don't know that. And I want every woman to get to the end of their life and know they burned. And the only way you do that is by starting with little incremental steps. I mean, I've seen this in activism. Incrementalism is what leads to revolutions. Often it's a dirty word, like, takes too long. But it's really important, these baby steps. And I think that is what is important, is that you are taking steps toward what it is you want to do. Not just reading about it or thinking about it, but actually starting to do things that bring it to fruition.
- [35:44]
B
You. You brought up a fear of mine and you mentioned, you know, as women get to the end of their life, right, and are they fulfilled? Do they do what they want to do? One of my fears is that, you know, the women in my life, my. My daughters and my wife will get to that end point. But, like, I didn't do everything I wanted to do. And a lot of times, you know, men have a different perspective. They think differently. It's a little more rough at times. Like, well, just go do like I support you. So my question to you is very specific, and it's for all the men out there, including myself. How can we do better to support the women in our life so that their flame is not distinguished?
- [36:27]
A
First of all, I want to say that this is a process. When I started, moms demand action, and I talk about this in the book. I had just been remarried a couple of years earlier. We were blending our families and my roles and my ex husband's roles and my new husband's roles. They were all very defined in what we did. And I did most of the cooking, cleaning, driving, et cetera. And when I started Mom's Man Action. It turned everybody's life on its head and everybody had to start doing things differently. You know, my husband and I went to therapy because it was not what we expected that we were moving into, in our marriage. And it was at the end of the day beautiful because we realized the container is big enough to hold our relationship and what we want to do. One of my favorite pictures from my kids high school is she was getting a soccer award and I was traveling for Moms to Man Action and my ex husband and my husband were both on each arm. And that is not a moment that would have happened, you know, if I had not pursued what I wanted to do. The other thing I found interesting is that I've had men come to my book events, husbands supporters, and they've said, you know, I really wrote the book with women in mind. And they said I'm reading this book because it's so helpful to me to figure out how to help my partner, my daughter do what they want and how to make space for them to figure out what those things are. Because I didn't even like you were saying, I didn't even realize that they were being held back.
- [37:53]
B
Yeah, it's, it's a thing that as a man at least you just don't think about and especially if you're a man like myself, that, that doesn't see life that way. Right. Sees women as equally as powerful and, and wanting to see women do great things, especially my own. Right. I mean like I think that's what every man should want the best for their, for their ladies, whether it's their wife, their mom, their grandma, their children. And you know, I just think it's important as we land the plane here, I do, I do want for you to touch a little bit more on. You say Firestarter University. Yes, I want to get that out a little bit more and talk about that. What it's going to be, when is it going to be available? How does, how does one go and enroll and all that and all that.
- [38:41]
A
Yeah. So if you have a copy of the book, you just go to fired up book.com you can enroll there. It starts in September. It's free with the purchase of the book. It's online, it's a year long, once a month it will have a lot of women from the book who are helping me teach women from all walks of life. Jessica Yellen, who is the founder of News Not Noise on Instagram, she's very well known among women. She's going to Help kick it off. And so I'm really excited about that. As I said, I don't think women can live on fire alone. And so to find that community of other women who will support and help and cheer you on is incredibly important. And that's where these, you know, those women are in these 800 women. It isn't easy to make friends in midlife in particular. And so to just have that community there for you, I think is going to be really fun and wonderful. So we'll go through the book throughout the year. I'm sure we'll end up doing more of them after that first year course, but. But I think this is really exciting to. As an inaugural kickoff. And then as I mentioned to you, there's these, we're calling them bonfires, where women are taking the book in dozens of states across the country and starting to have real life interaction and conversations about the. The content of the book. And so all of that information is available@fire.book.com I love it.
- [39:59]
B
Thank you for sharing that. I'm definitely gonna pick it up for my wife. I think she'd really enjoy it. And I'm gonna pick one up for myself too, because I, I do want to understand more. Right. I mean, the. When I do interviews. And this is the thing that I think is special about what we're building here. I'm genuinely, genuinely interested in hearing other perspectives and wanting to learn more. And if I can be better for the women in my life than, hey, I'm all for it, man, for sure. Because it's not just the Sean show, it's the whole family in its society. And society, I think right now can use a woman's touch.
- [40:34]
A
Yes, yes, we need. If you're listening to this and you're a woman, I believe there's a moral imperative to run for office right now. I don't care if it's county coroner or city council, school board. Think about how you can serve.
- [40:47]
B
There it is. There's your call out, ladies. Listen to it. Shannon, thank you so much for coming on, discussing your life, your life's work, your. The book, your activism, and sharing personal details of your families and of your family. I just really appreciate you.
- [41:03]
A
Thank you. Sean, back at you.
- [41:05]
B
All right, thank you. And. And ladies and gentlemen, that you're watching and listening, go to firedup.com if you have the book already enroll into Firestarter University. You don't have the book yet. I'm sure you can get it there in any bookstore, Barnes and Noble, all those good places. Go pick it up. And if you're a man, go pick it up and learn how you can be better for your ladies. And until next time, guys, stay determined.