How David Royce Built a $500M Pest Control Empire From Door-to-Door Sales

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Determined Society with Shawn French

Episode: How David Royce Built a $500M Pest Control Empire From Door-to-Door Sales
Date: January 2, 2026
Host: Shawn French
Guest: David Royce

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the remarkable journey of David Royce, a serial entrepreneur and founder of multiple pest control companies, with his last venture exiting at an approximate valuation of $500 million. The conversation explores David's beginnings in door-to-door sales, the brutal grind of startup life, and the mentality required to scale “unsexy” businesses by applying a white-collar, systems-driven approach to blue-collar industries. David and Shawn discuss the realities behind overnight success myths, the importance of obsession, emotional intelligence, and resilience in entrepreneurship, and how trauma or adversity can be a potent motivator. Throughout, they offer pragmatic advice for aspiring founders and those struggling to scale their ventures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Beginnings and Breakthroughs

• Starting Point: David began selling pest control door-to-door in college after a friend claimed to have made $25k one summer, and soon turned a rough start into a record-breaking sales run.
  • Quote: "The first week I'm just… it's miserable. I'm horrible at sales… I go the first five days in a row with zero, just zero. And you don't get paid. It's a commission only job." (05:45, David)
• Self-Improvement Approach: After the bad start, David hit the bookstore, read sales books daily by the pool, and rapidly improved.
  • Quote: “I’m going to commit myself to 90 minutes a day to reading… by the end of the year, I was the top sales rookie.” (06:00, David)
• Rapid Scaling: David moved into leadership and training roles quickly, building teams and earning serious summer money: “By the end, I’m making $225 grand a summer… that’s almost a half a million in today’s money.” (07:44, David)

2. Sales Mastery: Tactics & Psychology

• Learning from Failure: Both host and guest shared stories of initial failure in sales, stressing persistence and adaptability over innate talent.
  • "Everything is hard before it's easy... Persistence is genius in disguise... If you really want something, how hard are you willing to work for it?" (12:37, David)
• Objection Handling: David’s approach involved scripting rebuttals, learning body language, and fine-tuning every detail of persuasion.
  • "It's not just what you say, it's how you say it... your volume, your voice, the speed, the pitch, pausing..." (13:34, David)
• Emotional & Social Intelligence: They argued mastery in sales is fundamentally about reading people and relating to anyone—”People like people who are like them... If you can talk in a language they can understand, great.” (16:07, David)
  • Quote: “If you can find ways to relate to all of them, you're going to be fed.” (17:48, Shawn)

3. Scaling Up: From Operator to Entrepreneur

• Building (and Almost Breaking) a Business: David recounts how his first pest control venture nearly bankrupted him due to runaway sales and cash flow miscalculations:
  • “The first year I almost bankrupt the business... we grew too fast... when you’re paying out sales reps, you’re paying out the money before all the revenue comes in.” (27:16, David)
• Lesson: “Revenue is vanity, profits are sanity, but cash flow is reality.” (28:53, David)
• Iterative Growth: He used his early profits (and lessons from a brush with disaster) to build, sell, and scale larger ventures—eventually leading to an empire operating in 34 states.

4. Culture & Differentiation

• White Collar Approach to Blue Collar Industry: David implemented tech company perks (NCAA basketball court, movie room, golf simulator, epic travel retreats) to attract top talent and differentiate the company.
  • “I don’t care what every other pest control company is doing… We’re going to make our headquarters look really cool.” (47:06, David)
• Core Values: As the business scaled, culture and core values mattered more than metrics alone. “It gets harder… Instead of ‘what would Dave do?’ it becomes, what should the company do as a whole?” (49:02, David)

5. Adversity, Determination, and Obsession

• Work-Life Alignment: David stressed the importance of partner support—his own grind coincided with his wife’s grueling law career, which allowed both to chase their ambitions.
• Never Rest: Both host and guest discussed the trap of “enough,” and the value of staying humble and hungry: “Never forget where you came from… only the paranoid survive.” (51:59, David)
• Obsession as a Superpower:
  • Quote: “People often ask, what is the one skill you have to have as an entrepreneur... I always say it’s obsession.” (52:57, David)
• Resilience and Trauma: David credits childhood financial insecurity for his drive: “Every entrepreneur has a chip on their shoulder about something.” (60:17, David)
  • “You have to decide what is that one thing that drives you… And know you’re good with that, you can really lean on that chip.” (61:58, David)
• Applied Knowledge and Action: Mere access to info or online learning isn’t enough—it's about aggressively and repeatedly executing.

6. Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

• Where to Start: “Today you can go on ChatGPT and just ask it, what are the top 10 blue collar businesses out there with the highest margins? And it’ll tell you everything you want.” (37:20, David)
• Scaling Tip: “Take a 30 day vacation, and if you come back and your business is still there, you’re ready [to scale].” (42:09, David)
• Focus on A’s, not B’s or C’s: David advises entrepreneurs to structure their time so they do only the most valuable tasks (strategy, new products, efficiency) and offload everything else.
  • Quote: “As an entrepreneur, you should focus only on your A’s… ask yourself, what is the best use of my time right now?” (44:18, David)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Blue Collar Riches:
  "There is an article in the Wall Street Journal… called the Stealthy Wealthy... the top 0.1% of income earners... 43% of all businesses are these guys." (34:14, David)
• On Scaling:
  “A lot of people want to work in the business as opposed to on the business.” (42:41, David)
• On Grit:
  "Obsession. People love to bag on obsession… but every high achiever I’ve ever spoke to… that’s exactly what they say. They’re like, 'I’m just obsessed.'" (53:54, David)
• On Quitting:
  "People always say, be careful, only 1% of people are successful at this. Is it because it’s impossible? No, it’s because the 99 of the other people just quit." (55:54, Shawn)
• On Adversity:
  “Trauma… I really think that’s the secret, is looking at it as a gift, because the big question in my mind is, would I have done what I did without it?” (65:41, David)
• Definition of Determination:
  “Doing what you said you were going to do, no matter how you feel emotionally at that time… showing up.” (59:41, Shawn)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |:-------------:|:-----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:01 | When do you know a business is scalable? | | 05:45 | Struggling in first week of sales—turning point | | 12:37 | Overcoming sales struggles & persistence | | 16:07 | On mirroring and selling to anyone | | 27:16 | Almost bankrupting the business—cash flow lesson | | 34:14 | The “Stealthy Wealthy”—blue collar riches | | 42:09 | The 30-day vacation test for business scalability | | 44:18 | Prioritization—A, B, C tasks for entrepreneurs | | 47:06 | Company culture: building a unique, appealing HQ | | 49:02 | Scaling & values over metrics as business grows | | 51:59 | Paranoia and never resting on laurels | | 52:57 | Obsession as key to success | | 60:17 | Finding your “chip” or core motivation | | 65:41 | Viewing trauma/adversity as a gift |

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Memorable Moments

• David’s honesty about his early failures and loneliness in sales.
• Discussion on the psychological edge of having a “chip on your shoulder.”
• The basketball court, movie room and skydiving as company perks for pest control staff.
• Both men opening up about their family dynamics and support at home.
• Host’s endorsement of obsession and learning, contrasting ‘passion’ with long-term resilience.
• David’s admission that he kept an obsessional focus on business every waking moment, but deliberately recalibrated priorities after building wealth.

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Overall Tone

The episode is refreshingly raw, practical, encouraging, and direct—a blend of hard truths, inspiring anecdotes, and blunt business wisdom. Both David and Shawn share in a spirit of humor, humility, and unconventional thinking, making the lessons accessible whether you’re a grinding founder, a college kid, or a corporate professional at a crossroads.

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Useful for Listeners Who...

• Are considering entrepreneurship, especially in “unsexy”/blue collar sectors.
• Want to understand scaling, systems, and the behind-the-scenes work of building a business.
• Value frank advice, real stories, and psychology over buzzwords and clickbait.
• Are seeking resilience, emotional intelligence, and honest discussion about work-life balance.

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Recommended Action:
If you’re stuck, struggling, or about to give up—listen to these insights on self-drive, resilience, and getting comfortable in uncomfortable settings. Understand that perseverance, continual learning, and obsession—channeled wisely—are the real compounding factors of outsized success.

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For more from David Royce, find him on Instagram or by searching his interviews online. Every show covers new angles and nuggets—don’t miss what could spark your next breakthrough.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

A lot of people ask me, well, how do you know if you have a scalable business? And I'm like, take a 30 day vacation and if you come back and your business is still there, you're ready.

[A]

You've made an amazing, amazing empire. What are your tactics?

[B]

The first year I almost bankrupt the business. Persistence is genius in disguise. You know, it's just that if you really wanted something like how hard are.

[A]

Willing to work for pest control.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Not the sexiest. No.

[B]

Built four different of the fastest growing pest control companies in the nation. The entire country tearing about what we were doing in Corona, California when we first started out.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

There is an article in the Wall Street Journal this last year. It was called the stealthy wealthy people who make $2.3 million or more per year. 43% of all businesses are these guys.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Lots and lots of opportunity.

[A]

What's up everybody? I'm back here with David Royce. What an amazing story. This gentleman built a pest control company to a massive exit of 500 mil. We started in college. His buddy had mentioned him, he can go make some money in the summer going door to door. And he made an amazing career out of it. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you could probably see why. He's probably the most handsome dude we've ever had sitting in our seat here in the studio of the determines to sell society. So who's gonna tell this face? No, but hey man, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hey, thanks for the opportunity. Appreciate it.

[A]

Dude, I'm super jacked to meet you, man. You're, you're out here from California and you're you're flying back on me. I was hoping to take you to breakfast afterwards.

[B]

I know it's, it's a quick in and out. I. I love getting back home to see my kids at night before they go to bed.

[A]

See that? So let's touch on that, man, because that is so important. I'm the same type of father. When I'm building out my schedule, I have to make sure that, that I need to make sure I get a flight back at a certain time so I can put my kids down at least.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially if I'm in, you know, the west coast and I'm flying all the way back to Florida.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I want to be able to see my kids, you know, and we have, I mean, that's, that's a blessing because, you know, there's a lot of parents that they'll go on the road trips, man. They're like, I'm gonna say, gone as long as humanly possible so I don't have to go home. But, you know, I'm, I'm happy to hear that you're not just a successful entrepreneur. It sounds like you really, really care about your family.

[B]

Yeah, I do. You know, it's. It times and seasons. Right. Like, you can bust your ass for a bunch of years, you know, but when you start to have your family, your priorities change. Yeah, that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And you just realize, like, what's important to you and where you want to put your time.

[A]

Absolutely. How old are your kids?

[B]

So they are 13 and 10 and a half.

[A]

Okay. Wow. Yeah, you're about. Oh, you got a teenager.

[B]

I know, it's, it's starting to happen.

[A]

Is it two boys, two girls, two. Oh, gosh. So I have a 12 year old son and then a nine year old daughter and a six year old daughter.

[B]

So you know exactly.

[A]

I know exactly. Yeah. You're gonna have to send me some, some ideas of what happens when they hit 13, because sometimes my 6 year old, I feel like she's already starting, like, great soul, but she, she will tell you what she thinks. But, but did you have an amazing story? So, of course I did some research and reading up on you. You try this thing for the summer and it didn't start off very, very good for you. Right. Walk the audience through that origin story because I think there's a major lesson here. But as you close it out, I want you to also tie in because a lot of people look down on people that go door to door.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

And and when they come into our neighborhood, our HOA is like, get out. I'm like, no, I want to. I want these people at my door because I want to see how they're doing it. Right. So I just also want, if you can inspire the audience to not look down on certain types of careers. Because, sure, you've made an amazing, amazing empire by, from, starting from there. So I'll let you. I'll let you roll into it now.

[B]

Yeah, so I had a friend in college, you know, I'm working at a snowboard shop for minimum wage, and you know, it's hard going to college at the same time and trying to work part time. It's hard to get the best grades possible. And he just said, hey, last summer I made 25 grand going out to California. And we had a lot of fun, you know, on weekends, but I made 25 grand these three and a half months, and, you know, it's like double in today's money. And I thought, okay, there's nothing else I can do that can make that much money. Yeah, I'm, I'm going for no idea. Right? I don't know exactly what that is. Pest control. I've never really heard of it, but I'll, I'll go try that. And so we get out there and the first week I'm just, I'm. It's miserable. I'm horrible at sales. I, you know, I hadn't really studied up on sales, didn't know what I was selling. And everybody else around me selling one to four accounts per day. And I go the first five days in a row was zero, just zero. And you don't get paid. It's a commission only job.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that weekend, you know, I'm questioning, I'm going, gosh, like, am I cut out for this? Like, what's the issue? And I said, okay, well, I'm going to go down to the bookstore and I'm going to buy some sales books and try to just start setting up. And by the end of that summer, what I said is, I'm going to commit myself to 90 minutes a day to reading. And I would sit up by the pool, read. You know, a lot of my other friends are hanging out and playing or doing whatever they want to do. And I was the top sales rookie by the end of the year. And so I figured it out. It's just my personality. It's just like I'm relentless when it comes to something I really am excited about and want to do. And then the next summer I Worked for a big company that first year. The next summer, I was recruited by a small company to go work as a sales manager and then to bring out some friends. And when I got there, there's. There's no sales training manual. And I'm like, oh, crap. Like, I want my friends to do good at this. So I asked the boss, I'm like, can I write a training manual for you? You know, to train everybody? And he's like, yeah, that's amazing. They'd only been in business for a year. I didn't even realize that. It's probably one of the key questions I should have asked.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

But he had worked for a much larger company previously, and he was one of the first guys to kind of break away from a marketing company for door to door and go do his own thing. They were doing about one in a million, maybe a million and a half. When I first got there. They had one year, and it was fairly successful. And then when I got there, we. We doubled what he had done previous the previous year, and it was twice as. We were twice as successful as his other sales team. He had another sales team down in Austin. He'd open two locations, and we were in Dallas, Texas. And so at the end of the summer, he said, look, I would love to pay you a commission off every single person that you recruit, and you can oversee the entire sales program. You can develop, do whatever you want to do. Like, I would love for you to multiply what you're doing. So the next two years, next two summers, like every year, every summer in college, I'm going out and I'm doing this, you know, sales program. And by the end, I'm making 225 grand a summer.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

Right? And so that's almost a half a million today's money.

[A]

That's insanity.

[B]

Making a ton of money. So I was recruiting, like, 100 people, you know, training them, managing them over the summertime. And then I was gonna go to get an investment into investment banking. I was studying finance, and I go to my boss, and I'm like, hey, I need you to write a letter of recommendation for this, because, you know, pest control is probably not going to be very sexy to investment bankers. You know, they probably will even look down on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if they understand what I've done, I think that's what will really sell them. And, like, the idea of also having a sales background mix with finance, I think was super. Would have been super helpful for M and A. And that was the point where he just looked at me, he's like, what are you doing?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

He's like, you, you're like the top 1%, 1% in sales in this industry and you're gonna go work for somebody else year round for 800 hour weeks. He's like, I just don't get it. He's like, you should really go start your own company. So it was him that actually like encouraged me. And I, when he first told me, I'm like, no, like it's blue collar. Like I have a college degree. Like I'm yeah. Gonna go to New York, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's sexy.

[A]

Yeah, that's cool, man. I went to, I went to all this school. I'm gonna make good of it right now. I'm gonna go to New York. I'm gonna do something big.

[B]

Yeah. So that's, that's how I originally got into the industry. Ultimately I took his advice. I'd saved like 300 grand while I was in college. I was thinking I was going to go to MBA school, you know, needed to save money for that. And yeah, the idea of door to door for me, what was always exciting about it is it's, it's not a glamorous job. You know, it's hot outside, you're working, you know, a lot of times you're working all the way through the day and even into the night until dark, you know, until maybe 8:30 at night and tons of rejection. But it was damn good money, I bet. And for me, like I've really enjoyed creating like the best job possible for college students. And even today it really is, I mean we have some, there are some salespeople that will make up to a million dollars a year, you know, in a four, maybe five month summer. They'll like expand their summer a little bit so they can make even more.

[A]

A million dollars. That is wild, dude.

[B]

It's crazy. I mean they're, they're freaks of nature, but you know, to make a hundred thousand dollars and it's not totally uncommon, a lot of, there's a lot of salespeople that make that, especially the sales managers. I mean they're typically making a hundred thousand dollars or more a month in a summer. So three and a half months. Yeah.

[A]

Wow, dude. Yeah.

[B]

So most of them are college students. It's just like they're, they're willing to grind and work really hard that you know, they want to pay off their college debt while they're in school. Not think about it, dude.

[A]

It's so funny. Like I'm thinking about, I'm thinking back to me because you know, I was the baseball player, right. I was at lsu. We, you know, thinking, thank God I didn't have all that money back then. Like I don't know what I would have done with it. And you're saying like, oh yeah, these people want to pay off their college. I'm like, I would have blown that money. That would have been very irresponsible.

[B]

It's like all these people, football players now, everybody in college. I cannot believe.

[A]

Could you imagine? Could you really imagine? Like, oh, here's, here's your nil deal. It's 12 mil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For three, four years. It's like, wait, what'd you say? It's like a friggin rookie contract, man. It's crazy to me. But anyway, I digress. No, it's, it's interesting to me because you know, when you, I want to point something out at the very beginning he said, you know, the first week I was terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't sell anything. And you started contemplating is this really for me? And I think a lot of people will do that initially, Right? I think I did that as well. When I was selling payroll for paychecks.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

My first three months I was God awful. I was terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I ended up being one of the best sales reps in the company. Right. For many years. But I started working on things. I started pick, you know, pointing out a process of mine, Right. I was like, I have all these zip codes, so Monday I'm going to be in this zip code. I'm going to write everything down, I'm going to take notes. I did the same thing every single day. And within three weeks my business blew up. Right. That's kind of what you're saying. You took control of your struggle and I want you to dive more into that because there's a lot of people listening or watching the show that are sitting in that trouble right now in that thing that they're not very good at and they want to either blame somebody else or this is just the way it is. It's not written for me to be successful. All these different low energy excuses. But you took control by reading books and, and spending that development time for 90 minutes a day. Walk them, you know, dive more into that because I think there's something really big there.

[B]

So it sounds like you cut your teeth in sales.

[A]

Oh my God. Yeah, dude. Yeah. So payroll, then medical and then that was medical business was the last business I was in in 2024. I was like, no, I'm going in this. I'm doing this full time. Like, I'm. I'm going for it.

[B]

You know, it's. Everything is hard before it's easy. Right. And the. The old phrase persistence is genius in disguise. You know, it's just that if. If you really want something, like, how hard are you willing to work for it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's answers out there. Like, for me, if I've seen somebody else do something, I know it's possible, like, that seeing is believing. If you can see it, you can be it. So, okay, well, it's just like, what do they do to get there? And so I just slowly start studying, trying to figure out what are those steps, you know, So I went out and got the, you know, half a dozen sales books, started reading up the. On those. I looked at all the different rebuttals, you know, that a customer could. Or objections.

[A]

Objections.

[B]

Yeah. I wrote down rebuttals for all of them. And I just said, okay, here's. Here's how I would get over this. And I started wordsmithing it and making the vocabulary just right, you know, because I noticed these sales books, they were. They were like masters. They're like magicians of their wording and how they would say things. And then I might take it to the next level where I started reading body language books.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

How do you. It's not just what you say, Right. It's how you say it and how your body language communicates. And also para verbally, like, how you say it. You know, your. Your volume of your voice, the speed, the pitch, you know, pausing, all those sorts of things. So that was like the next step to really develop it. But having lots of different rebuttals. Yeah. Multiple rebuttals for the same objection. Because sometimes they don't accept the first one. And then having I call them aces, you know, it was something else you were able to lay down to offer that maybe you hadn't told them yet about the service. And then having even a different close so they didn't hear the same close. And psychologically think I'd already heard that close. So I don't want to accept it. Again, there's a lot of psychology in sales, and if you. The nice thing about commission jobs is you're incentivized to get better and to learn more. And it's like, gosh, if I can make another 10 grand, like, that was life changing at that point, right? College.

[A]

Absolutely, dude.

[B]

But then it was like, if I can make another Hundred grand. How would that change?

[A]

Wild. The mark always moves, doesn't it?

[B]

It does it?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Just kick the goal post back.

[A]

Yeah, just move it. Yeah, we'll move that goal post this way. We'll just keep going. It's interesting to me because, you know, you talked about the body language. You talk about just even hearing somebody's voice. That's why I love speaking on the phone with some. You know, if I'm talking to somebody, I. Instead of just the texting, I like to hear their voice because I know what they really mean when they say it. Yeah, I'm good with that. Like, yeah, I can do that. Well, wait, wait a second. Are you really? I don't think you are. I'm. I'm hearing this. Am I wrong?

[B]

Right?

[A]

No, you're actually right. I'm like, okay, cool, then let's just not do that. Right. So it's super important. And with sales, I always thought, because always ask me, like, what's your technique? What are your. What are your tactics? How are you selling so much? How are you so good? I'm like, I'm likable, right. I have conversations with people. I don't beat them up with a brochure. I don't beat them up with the features and benefits. I ask them what their issue is, what their problem is. And I asked them, okay, so if we can find a way to solve this for you, you'd be interested in, you know, moving forward to the solution? Yes, absolutely. You already have the. You just pre. Closed them and then you solve their problem. All right. When do you want to run your first payroll? Next week. Cool. Sounds good. Yeah. But you're having this conversation and you're dialed into the person. I think a lot of salespeople think too much about the sale and the features and benefits. What are your thoughts there?

[B]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that kind of what you're talking about with dialing in to the customer, what's. What's critical is to have that sensory acuity to know who is this individual? How do they need to be spoken to. Right. In order for somebody like you. People like people who are like them. And so if you can be. If you can talk in a language that they can understand and that they can hear, great. So, you know, how did they stand at the door? That's what I'm. What I'm thinking when I'm first there.

[A]

You know, are they.

[B]

Are they leaning up against the door or whatever else? I lean up against the door too. You know, I would Start my body language. Yeah, you start mirroring, right? And then. Same thing. You start echoing with your voice almost in a similar way, the speed at which they talk, you know, the type of slang they might be using. You can adopt things very quickly in the South.

[A]

It's y'. All.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, if you're in California, you guys.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I mean, these. This is important stuff, man. This is. Guys, this is why he was so good or is still good. He'll be doing something else soon. I'm pretty dang sure of it. Ain't gonna keep this guy out for long. But. But this is important because you know, when. If you're able. And I hate saying be a chameleon, right? Because you don't.

[B]

I love Santa. I say it all the time.

[A]

But sometimes, you know, people take it a step further and they're different everywhere they go. But I think professionally, it's super important. The one thing that I always pride myself on is like, can I talk to a homeless person the way I can speak to a doctor, the way I can speak to a psychologist or. Or a manager of a grocery store or a owner of an H vac company? If you can find ways to relate to all of them, you're all. You're going to be fed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that's what people are missing. That is what people are missing when they say, I'm struggling with sales, like, or I can't build my company. So there's a big disconnect because you're thinking about one thing, and it's just yourself. So if you can get into what you're saying, mirroring language, mirroring body movements, everything. This is. This is. To me, that's everything with sales. The tactics, the skills. Those aren't it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I remember somebody once asked the question, if you could be an animal, what type of animal would you be? You know, and some of. Some of the people in the room were like, I'd be a lion or I'd be this or that. I'm like, all right. And I said, I'd actually be a chameleon because I love having the ability to talk to anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the same thing when it comes to politics or whatever else. I don't want to pick a side. I want to hear one. I don't want them to think or have bias against whatever my actual view may be. It's like, here, tell me more about that. You know, I can listen and I can adapt, and I can, you know, build on, really build a relationship of trust. Based on the things that I do believe in and that they believe in. At the same way, to be able to, you know, build a relationship, sensory acuity. You know, some people will say, oh, well, that sounds like manipulation. I'm like, no, that's just good sensory acuity. Like, it's just good being a good neighbor. Like socially being able to talk to somebody.

[A]

You know, it's so funny when people say that, right? It's like, it's manipulation as I know. It's emotional intelligence.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I mean, there's books about this thing like, it. You don't have to be IQ smart, but if you're, if you're I. If you're EQ smart, right? Like, dude, there's nothing you can't do because you're understanding people. If you understand people, you understand the psychology of people. You understand how things move and things work and then how to infuse yourself in ways to benefit. Right, Right. There's their problem or. And in your gain as well. Right. Because it's business. I mean, we, you know, we don't do things for free. You know, we like to make money when we do them too. But I think just the, the overall, I would say, what is that word I'm looking for, man? I'm looking forward. I don't always get stuck, but sometimes I do. It's just like your motive, your motive. What's your motive? Right? What are your intentions? It's like, no, I'm gonna be good for this person. I'm gonna hear what they have to say. But, you know, ultimately, I think that's that, that's one piece. A lot of young salespeople, or even the ones that you get beat up in your email all the time, you know, hey, you know what I heard the other day? You know what I saw? You're gonna enjoy this one. I have to bring this up. My email gets bombarded constantly by, you know, you know, alternative production clips, marketing coaches to scale my business to a million dollars in, in. In 60 days or I don't pay a dime. Like, dude, get out of my email with that. This guy said, hey, long time no talk. I was just going to call you today, but I figured I would just write you to see if you had any availability tomorrow to talk about what we spoke about a few months ago. And I, and I wrote back. I go, I've literally never spoken to you before in my life. How are you going to call me? How are you going to call me when you don't have my number? I was like, you may have the best thing ever, but I'm going to tell you right now, I will never buy from you because you lied to me. Yeah, There's a lot of that going on, too. Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's. As someone, like, we're all in sales. Right. If you're an entrepreneur, you're. You're. You're in sales. Um, and it's often those who are in sales admire other people's persuasiveness.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or their sales pitch or whatever else the most. It's like you're okay with someone knocking on your door.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm the same way. I'm like, come on. If you can get past my. No. Soliciting science. Exactly. Knocking my door. All right, I'll hear you out.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm critique you. I'll tell you what, you can do better.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, because I thought of you as a couple weeks ago, you know, because we knew we were doing the show, and. And I use a certain pest control company. I'm not very happy with them. And then somebody else knocked on my door and said, hey, you know, I was just over there servicing so and so.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and I wanted to come introduce myself. I said, I know they use the same company I use, so why don't we start over?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, you guys.

[A]

I was like, I know for a fact, because I saw their. Their little post on their.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because. Let's start over, man. I'm gonna give you another opportunity to start. Hey, I'm just canvassing the area. I do have some, you know, some homeowners in this neighborhood that. That I do service. I said, right, that is true. Because I see you, and. And we had this great conversation, and I was like, I'm good, man. And he's like, you sure? I'm like, I have one problem, and if you can fix it, I'm all in. I go, my pool cage. My. My. My current pest control company says they can't spray for these spiders. He goes, oh, we treat them. We go around like Ghostbusters. I'm like, can you show me what you're talking about? Boom. Hired him on the spot.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But. But we had this conversation, you know, and I was open. I was open to him because he knocked on my door and I answered.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think there's a lot we can learn from that. Right. Just be open people. Just because they're knocking on your door doesn't mean they don't have any value. Right. And they. He had A solution for this problem that my wife is consistently upset about.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I felt like I, you know, won the war that day my wife got home, I said, guess what I did for you.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

I fix your spider problem.

[B]

You know what's funny too is man, if, if, if you're truly self interested, never lie because the relationships are like long term. The way you get more business not just from one individual, but it's from their neighbors by, by real, you know, referrals. Say I, you see some people and it's just like they're early on in their sales and they think I can just say this and hopefully they'll believe it. And it's like, well, if you're servicing other people neighborhood, why would you say this neighbor is doing it? Just say, hey, I've got about 10 of the neighbors in the neighborhood. Yeah. That we're treating, I'm trying to build.

[A]

My, we're doing, trying to build my portfolio here in, in Westbrook. Like, what's up? Let's, let's do this right. You know, I, I want to get into the, the adversity side of things, man. I mean, and, and you know, this show, the determined society is based on determination and discipline and just showing up for yourself even on the days you emotionally don't want to. Right. And so at the end of the show, I'm going to ask you your true deter, your definition of determination. But before we get there, I want you to talk to the audience and describe to me that building process. Right. Because a year ago you sold, but there was a lot in between there and there was a lot of work. I'm sure there was a lot of adversity and a lot of things that you had to work through to stay steadfast in your mission in order to get the end result that you had. So why don't you walk the audience through some of the hardest parts of building this company, you know, personally and professionally.

[B]

Yeah. So about a year ago I sold my business and exited. Been about 20 years. And I built four different of the fastest growing pest control companies in the nation during that time. This last one, I have an NDA, so I can't say how much it sold for, but we're doing about 500 million that's public. And the average pest control company sells between one and three times revenues. Usually the large you are, the, you know, higher a multiple you get. So, you know, it was a big company. We're in 34 states, you know, in 5,000 cities, third largest residential pest control company In North America.

[A]

We started googling this stuff right now.

[B]

We started out with just one location, you know, and what happened was I, my boss told me, you know, by the way, I'm selling my business and yeah, I'm getting out and I'm selling it for 10 million bucks. And I was like, wait a second, okay, so I was here for three of the four years that you did this. You, you know, you're only doing a million and a half. We took it up to about 9 million. Now you're going to sell it for 10. That's, that's actually good money. You know, if I was to use, utilize kind of that same model and I don't like pest control, then maybe I'll just go back to MBA school because that was my original plan. So he was the one who originally encouraged me and I had a, there was a bunch of advantages. I had a finance degree, which most people don't have, and pest control. Most pest controllers are mom and pops. Yeah, it's just like a one man show. They probably work for a big company, broke off and started their own thing. And they're very focused in the business as opposed to on the business. And so for me, I, I was excited about building something, you know, becoming an entrepreneur and scaling. So the first company I started, it was very similar to. It's kind of like me working in a lab and trying things out. I'd knocked on 60,000 homes over four years and I picked up a lot of information, you know, in terms of what customers were looking for. You know, the residential side. You know, we love working with people who had families and had pets. That was really our niche. And I never, I never wanted to go knock a door again. I never wanted to go service a home myself. I wanted to study and implement, you know, test different things out, different ideas to see what would work and how we could improve the business and how we could scale as far as a struggle. The first year I almost bankrupt the business. So, you know, you think you know a lot, you just, you got your college degree or whatever and we grew too fast.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

I, so I actually, I convinced my old boss to invest in me. Said, look, I don't want to do anything. I'll be, you know, I'll be a silent partner, but I'll invest into you. I'll match what you are putting in. And then that gave me the ability to grow even faster. And so I thought we might put on maybe four or five thousand accounts. First year we put on almost 7,500 and the problem was cash flow. So when you're paying out the sales reps, their commissions, although you pay it out over time, you're still paying out, you know, the money before all the revenue comes in. Yes, because you're thinking, well, these customers might stay on for five years. I can pay out X amount. But, you know, if you're going to pay them out within three and a half, and even if you pay out some bonuses, like six months out or whatever, you just don't have enough money if you go too big. And so I actually had to convince them. They all had great summers like we were. I mean, the entire country was hearing about what we were doing in Corona, California, we first started out.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

And so, yeah, I just went to them, I said, look, like we did way better than I thought we would. Are you okay if I, you know, pay you in two months from now? You know, I'll pay you 10% interest or whatever, but when you need to get through this. And I'd worked in the trenches with them, training the guys, and they were like, yeah, of course they're all coming back the next year. They, you know, had a great experience. So I learned from that. I said, okay, let's. Let's not go quite as big. Let's do about the same amount the second year and make sure our cash is good. And then I'll have a better idea of how the cash flow is working and go from there. You know, it's the someone who once told me that revenue is vanity, profits are sanity, but cash flow is reality. So I learned. I learned that lesson very young.

[A]

It's so funny. You made me think of something, too. Dave is. So I have another business, right. I have a partner, and we have a payroll company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. And admittedly, I don't go hard on that payroll company. You know, I kind of get things here and there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But when we were building it, that's the first thing that I saw. And I was like, okay, we'll get these sales reps. And then I said, hold on, hold on. Because my partner was like, yeah, we need to do that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And he's like, you come up with a comp plan? I go, I can't. He goes, you know this stuff. I'm like, oh, no, I've got the comp plan already in my mind. I go, but if I execute this comp plan in two, and we have two sales reps at this early juncture, and they get 10 grand in revenue each, Right. We're Cooked. I go, because we're doing, we're bootstrapping this thing. Right, right. I'm like, he goes, well, how do the, the companies like paychecks and ADP do? I go, do you want to see the reserve accounts? Like, they have a ton of money, so they pay net 30 on all of their, all of their sales. But like, I think that's a, that's an interesting point because you're the only other person I've spoken to that had that issue immediately, like, oh, this is a problem. And a lot of people right now are thinking, well, I'll just build it so quick and then I'll pay people. Right. Some commissions. So you guys gotta be careful because you may not have the cash flow to pay those individuals, and that would be a very bad thing.

[B]

Yeah. And as a business owner, like, you get paid last.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Unless you also have to think about yourself, which you know, I couldn't do at the time and I'm paying everybody else out. But even then, you know, if you have a great business model that can grow too quickly, you can actually grow yourself out of business real quick.

[A]

That's wild, man. Yeah, we're on the right track here. You know, we've, we've been slowly building this, the, the business side of it. Right. It was just, it was just a good show before. We were doing great numbers. I'm like, this is just a hobby. We better fix this, man. Better fix it. But you, you never want to grow too quickly. You want to make sure you have everything in place. And, you know, I think the growing, the scaling quickly is just the sexy thing people talk about on social media. You know what I mean?

[B]

That's what gets clicks, right?

[A]

Yeah. Damn clicks, man.

[B]

Everybody's an overnight success.

[A]

Everybody. It only took me 10 years to get here.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

It's just crazy. So talk about some personal struggles because you talked about the, the professional struggle. Was there anything in your personal life that, that kind of needed attention because you were spending so much time doing this over here, you know, So I.

[B]

Was very, very fortunate. And this is something I'd actually recommend to everybody. Not necessarily how I did it, but you have to decide, like, the thing you're giving up is your time. Right. Like, and I love working 16 hour days. I, I was crazy. I got married in college. I, I married my college sweetheart.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

And she wanted to be an attorney. And so the reason why it worked out so well was because she was working 78 hour weeks, you know, in law school. And Then she got this insane job doing securities fraud litigation working 78, 80 hour weeks. And so we both had, like, our dreams and we were both set on, like, let's both help each other go achieve our dreams. And then, you know, on Saturday nights, we'll get together, we'll go to a great restaurant and enjoy ourselves, and then we'll spend the day with each other. Sundays, you guys are still married? We are, yeah. 25 years later.

[A]

Shoot. I mean, you know, when you see your wife three, ten times a month, you know, I mean that, that. I'm teasing. That's awesome, man. That's good. Because you both were in your grind. You both understood you're on a journey.

[B]

Yeah. And absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Saturday night date nights, man.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

But yeah, that, that's, that's the key. It's making sure you have somebody that's on board with that. Because if she hadn't been, it just, it wouldn't have worked. It probably, you know, we probably end up divorced because we wouldn't have both said yes. We're on the same page in terms of what we want. And we did that for about ten and a half years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I mean, just, I mean, before having kids.

[A]

That point, though, Dave, is super interesting because you look at what could have been, like what actually is, and what could have been or what might not have happened. Being on the same page as your partner is so important because I know a lot of dudes and a lot of women out there that are married to individuals that'd be like, when are you coming home? Yeah, like you're still working. Like, you, are you going to come home now? Like, imagine that heaviness when you're out there knocking door to door. Right, right. Of course. My wife asked me, hey, what's your eta?

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, that you have kids.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's like, hey, I need some help at home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So my schedule, over time, once we did start our family, that question became more common, more frequent. Yeah, it's okay. Like, I realize I need to be helpful.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool, man. It's a really cool story because I can just get a vibe for your energy, you know, I can just imagine you would bring the same energy to what you did out there in the field, and then training your sales reps and then training the people within your companies to build this massive success. It, it's, it's interesting to me because a lot of people are sitting there, like, listening right now, like pest control, right? Like pest control.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not the sexiest.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right.

[B]

One of the least.

[A]

But dang, that's just that. That's really cool, man.

[B]

You know, so there is an article in the Wall Street Journal this last year. It was called the Stealthy Wealthy. And there's a professor out of Princeton that has labeled us the stealthy wealthy. So the top 0.1% of income earners. Not the 1, just the 1%. The top 0.1%. People who make $2.3 million or more per year. 43% of all businesses are these guys.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so most people write like it doesn't get a lot of clicks. You know, it's not good clickbait. But almost half of the business out there are these kind of boring blue collar jobs that a lot of people don't think about or that just don't get the hype. And many of them are really great business margins because other people don't want to do them. And so it's a really fascinating thing to think maybe I should be. Instead of just thinking about maybe AI, where it's insanely competitive or, you know, a lot of people say, I want to be passionate about what I do. I'm going to go look into Hollywood or I want to be a music artist or whatever else. Everybody's running into those industries because they think it'd be fun. But what about the smart way looking at other industries where you don't have people maybe that even have. You typically have a college education or an MBA or just the drive to get out there and bust their ass and scale something with more of a white collar approach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lots and lots of opportunity.

[A]

So I like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you're talking about a blue collar business with a white collar approach.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And so I know there's somebody listening right now that's going, wait a second, that clicks. Like, all this checks out to me. I need to not be worried about running to where everybody else is running to. I can run to an area that wants me that is needed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What would you tell those? How would you instruct those people to start? Because there might be a man or woman right now, but like, hey, it's time for me to make a move in my life. Where do I start?

[B]

Yeah. So today is such an amazing time. Right. So when I went to college, you went there because in theory they had the knowledge, Right? Like you could take a business program, you know, go through a business program and graduate knowing business. You know, the Internet was. Shows how old I am, but it's just getting started up and.

[A]

Well, I think we're the same age.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

So I'm 48.

[A]

Yeah, I'm 47. So we had the AOL, the dial up. Yeah.

[B]

So you get it?

[A]

Like, I get it.

[B]

And so, I mean, there were no podcasts to go listen to? Like, no. Oh, I remember when Harvard, Stanford first started putting their lessons online back in like maybe the late 2000s. And I'm like, oh, this is so awesome. I can learn more. And now, like, guys like you, like, you have incredible podcasts. There's so much knowledge to learn out there. It's almost like I go to college. Other than like, you're putting your butt in a seat, you're forced to sit there and learn. But for those who are self starters and self motivated, why wouldn't you just go online and learn and, you know, listen to podcasts and continually? You can be growing and learning. So today you can go on chat, GPT and just ask it, what are the top 10 blue collar businesses out there with the highest margins? And it'll tell you everything you want.

[A]

That's wild, man.

[B]

So it's easy to like, pick, you know, figure it out. Whereas before it's like you had to know somebody, you know, that was doing it or, you know, they understood business. Maybe go to like a private equity guy or something and try to ask them like, hey, how do you, what's a good business to get into?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

So totally different world. It's never been easier, in my opinion, to figure out how to start a business and to start it with less people than before. Right. Because there's so many ways to be more productive through software and AI.

[A]

It's, you know, you made a good point. Like in this era that we live right now, there's all of these, there's all of these entrepreneurs putting free information out there on how they built their business. It's funny, I don't know if you know, but you know who Andy Frisella is.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

So he owns first form, it's a number one online supplement company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In, in America. And he's viral. He's had a very good podcast called the MF CEO Project. And yes, it mf. Yes, because he is the MF and CEO, he said. But he and Von Kohler went through the whole journey of building first form and how he did it, like sleeping on a mattress, painting lines in a parking lot. He was such a great storyteller.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Such a fantastic storyteller of the struggle. Like him and his buddy that owned the first supplement superstore, they took turns sleeping on the mattress because they weren't going to sleep there together. You know, they're like, we're not doing that. But. But like, he went through everything. He told all. And that was my. That's still my favorite podcast to date. Like, they just. They sunsetted it and he started another one, but they're bringing that one back. They're now recording to bring that back again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the thing that I loved about it is exactly kind of what you're doing, and you're giving people this information of how you built this. Like, literally, here's. Here's what I did. And I tell people this all the time because I learned from Andy. You want to know how to build a show? Here it is. You're not gonna go do it. Yeah, I know you're not gonna go do it because it. It is intensive. Right. But for those that are. I'm here for it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I really loved listening, and that's what inspired me to start this. Right. It was, you know, right around Covid. But not everybody and their brother had a podcast just yet. I got in right before. Now everyone's got one. Right. But. But the point is to what you were saying. I took time and I listened to a podcast, and it helped me sort my mind, it helped me sort my feelings. And I didn't know what I wanted to do at that point. But the moment I went deeper on myself, all those answers came to me. And then I applied those principles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're doing pretty damn good. But the amount of information out there for people like you should. You can't be stuck. You can't be sucked. Chat. GPT can write your workout program for you. You can write your nutrition, you can tell you your macros, everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's all based on SEO.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is all information. So what other tips would you give someone right now that that is. That has just started their business in a hyper. In a high margin area. But they. But they're. But they're kind of kind of tightening up a little bit, and. And, you know, they need some help. What would you say?

[B]

Yeah. So one. Just based on what you said, you know, it goes. It reminds me of that point. Knowledge is power. And they say that and I.

[A]

Is like.

[B]

It's potential power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you don't have the inertia, the energy and the drive to go put it into action, it means nothing. Yeah, right. It's like, and that's why like this super skill set today, it's not the knowledge, it's almost like, yeah, you just gotta know where to get the knowledge.

[A]

I think it's applied knowledge, man.

[B]

Yeah, it is like applied knowledge. It's, it's the, the difference in my mind is, is that drive that you have, you know, that ambition, it's the ability to become obsessed about something and just keep noodling on it and thinking about it and tweaking, you know, and working it, making it better and better. So as far as like if for other entrepreneurs who are maybe out there, maybe you have like a single location or you've got a little bit of traction, like how do you improve it? The biggest gap I see is how to scale. So that first company, I realized I didn't have enough money. Almost going bankrupt on the first, the first one. And so after four years I sold it. Have an NDA on that one too. But Forbes said I sold it for 13 million. And now I didn't just have $600,000 now I had, you know, millions of dollars to be able to invest and expand. And so then we expanded. The first company, it was figuring out how to scale or was figuring out the model in order to be able to scale. And so a lot of people ask me, well, how do you know if you have a scalable business? And I'm like, take a 30 day vacation. No. And if you come back and your business is still there, you're ready.

[A]

You're ready.

[B]

Right? And so scaling, I know it doesn't sound sexy, but it's, it's getting, it's, it's creating, you know, training manuals. Right? And it's, it's training job descriptions and getting all that secret sauce. Like it's creating that recipe for the secret sauce so that you can scale what made you great at that single location. And the problem is it's not the big things that hold us back, it's the small things as entrepreneurs. Like a lot of people, they want to work in the business as opposed to on the business.

[A]

This is one that's really good, right? Because. Explain that to the audience because I know a lot of individuals that struggle with this and sometimes I get really caught up in this one too. So this is a real thing.

[B]

Yeah. So the problem is it's, it's, it's a function of time. So I divide my time into A's, B's and C's. A is something that's really important, but not Urgent. A B is something that's somewhat important, somewhat urgent. And then C, it's urgent, but it's not important. So a C might be paying bills. It's urgent. You got to pay your bills. But it's not that important for you to do it. You can hire somebody else to do it or obviously, just set up on autopay.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

And then maybe a B might be hiring people. You know, it's critical. You got to hire the right people. But can you train somebody else to do that for you so that they're hiring? Create standards. You create what your values are. You know, here's the job description in terms of what they need to have. But also help them analyze the body language and how they communicate so you really get great people. But you can train somebody else to do that. You don't have to do that. And then you have your A's. Like strategy. Right. Or coming up with a new product or service line, you know, figuring out how to make your business more efficient, you know, more productive, more profitable. Those are the most important things. And so as an entrepreneur, you should focus only on your A's. Like, get your C's and your B's dialed in, where you hire people to do those things for you, but maximize your time. Ask yourself the question, what is the best use of my time right now? That's the question I always ask myself.

[A]

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Because we recently, you know, I stopped worrying about my B's and C's, and I'm only work. I'm only worried about the A's, and it's the first time I've ever heard it, you know, explained like that. But my wife and I and my partners were sitting down. I'm like, this is everything that I'm doing every single day. Yeah. And I can't, because the actual conversations are going to struggle. I cannot grow this company. I cannot grow the show. I'm worried about B and C. So I need. We got to put some guardrails in. We got to figure out who's covering what but the responsibilities. Right. And then we need to hire maybe one or two people so they can go take care of this. We hired one. We hired my buddy Dan. That was my boss at Paychex. Turned to be one of my best friends ever. Yeah. He's like a brother to me. Yeah. And now he's transitioned out of corporate, and I hired him.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

First official hire.

[B]

Great hire.

[A]

Cool. Yes.

[B]

You know what's funny, too, is we feel productive when we're doing Bs and Cs, but it's, it's a, it's the wrong feeling. You still feel productive when you're doing things and you feel like this animal productivity. It's just that you're not focused on the right things. And what happens is you become like this glorified manager. You can hire a manager.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To do all those things and there's nothing wrong with that position. But you just have to decide if I really want to scale, what does that need to look like? And so for my second company, that's what the focus was. I took my four most loyal managers and we went into four different states and I said, okay, the next step, I want to see if we can actually scale, you know, this recipe that we created. Scaled that one, you know, over another few years and then sold that business too. Why? Needed more money to grow faster. And I, because I was in a blue collar industry, I wanted to take that white collar approach. I finally, now I had, you know, tens of millions of dollars to be able to invest in the company. And so I started thinking, okay, what, what can I do? Because I'm not learning a lot from pest control at that point anymore. So I started looking at Silicon Valley because, you know, the tech companies started like, you know, 2000. Everything was in the pot, like, right. People weren't as excited to go into tech anymore. And that's why I was looking at investment banking. But then towards 2010, things were starting to pick up again. And so I started looking at Silicon Valley going, what can we do? And so I went toward Google, went to Meta, the Nike headquarters, Zappos, and I started studying all these different headquarters and amenities and things they were doing. Right? Because to attract the very best talent, tech had to get software developers in there. And so they had these really amazing facilities, you know, and so I just said, all right, I'm going to start doing that. I don't care what every other pest control company is doing. We're going to put in an NCAA basketball court.

[A]

That's cool, man.

[B]

Like, we're going to have, you know, a movie room and a ping pong foosball, you know, pool tables, a golf simulator. And we're going to make our headquarters look really cool. Because I, my, the issue we were having is I'm like, look, if we're going to grow into thousands of cities, I need to get the talent here and a differentiating factor because nobody else is doing it. I can make our headquarters look really sexy. We can have really Cool company retreats. Like, we started going initially to Hawaii and it's a Caribbean. Then we started doing like Egypt and Africa, Australia, all this really cool stuff. You had a lot of college kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so they were super excited to see the world. And you know, these trips were legendary. We'd like skydive out of planes, you know, swim with sharks.

[A]

You were skydiving?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like just if you signed up with us to come back the next summer to sell, you had to skydive. We all were going skydiving together.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

So my attorney, like, granted, I didn't have an in house attorney at the time, but you know, later they're like, you might want to rethink this one in case something happens.

[A]

Can't throw them in a, in a cage with sharks, dude. You know, you just can't do it.

[B]

It was always, it was always part of our thing. But it's really a question of like, how do you, how do you differentiate and make it interesting? Then we got into software and like, like when we recently sold the company, we had 60 different software developers at our company. And so we started thinking more tech and how to make the business more, how to make the sales productivity go up, how to make it more profitable, all those sorts of things. So we just kept thinking of different ways to differentiate the business as. And as far as scaling goes, you know, we really nailed it. On the second company. It's like, okay, we've got a model. Let's keep growing. Let's create core values, you know, so that we, we can stay the same. It gets harder and harder. Right. As you grow a business, it gets bigger. You're. It used to be, what would Dave do? But then it's like, what should the company do, you know, as a whole? And so by creating core values and picking out key managers for each location, that's how you replicate yourself.

[A]

It's really smart. What's the biggest lesson that you learned in growing all those companies? I'm sure there's a thousand lessons.

[B]

Yeah, there's thousands. I think as we got bigger and bigger, it's really critical that you're hiring the right people. Like everything comes down to hiring. If you want to be able to continue to build it, you can't build it on a Sandy foundation. And so the core values and the people, you know, the metrics are kind of easy to figure out. Yeah, I'd probably say the number one thing is never stop growing. Don't just build a bigger business, but build a better one. Yeah, that should be the focus. If you decide that you're big enough, you know, or that you, you've always done something a certain way or that you're good enough because you're just the biggest in the industry, that's when things start to go downhill. I always say there's like a startup, a scale up and a screw up, you know, a startup, you're just getting going. The scale ups when you're starting to scale across the country are really get bigger. But the screw ups, you know, you've seen it. And almost every company that gets really big, they start to rest on their laurels. And if you lose that entrepreneurial edge, it's really hard. If you stop in business, it's not like you're just stopping, you're actually going backwards because all the other competitors are.

[A]

Moving forward at light speed because they're still hungry. It's really interesting because that right there is something that I refuse to fall into. And so as you grow and you know this, like when you were doing really, really well, people will come up to you that know you for like, man, I'm really proud of you, man. You must be really proud. Like, you know, is it enough yet? And you're like, I'm just getting started. Like, this is, this is nothing yet. And so when people come to me and say, wow, like, you've grown, you go, look at this, what you're doing. This is incredible. You're sitting down with people like Jay Leno. I'm like, okay, like, what, you're not happy? I'm like, no, I'm happy, but this ain't it. Yeah, like, I'm nothing. And, and like, I, I think that's a healthy mindset.

[B]

It is.

[A]

You know, I just, I think there's a lot of people out there say, no, you should always think very highly of yourself. I do. When I put in the work, like, I, I get very proud of myself, but I also don't sit idle. So someone comes up to me, he's like, man, you're number, number two on Apple or number two trending on Spotify. Yeah, okay. Like today. Yeah, cool. But, like, my point is this. To me, I still see the dude that was recording in the car, right? And I think every entrepreneur needs to never let go of that beginning entrepreneur in them. That is the most powerful place you can be, is still seeing yourself as the dude or the gal recording in an suv because it's the only quiet spot you can find. Let everybody else sing your praises but me. Like, I'm Just that, dude.

[B]

Yeah. Never forget where you came from. Right. Like, pride cometh before the fall, you know, and it's. I was always worried that if I didn't stay humble and just keep working and grinding, trying to figure it out, like, I really believe only the paranoid survive. You have to have that mentality in order to. If you're number two now, a year or two from now, you still want to be in that spot. Or number one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't rest on your laurels.

[A]

It's like this. It's so hard to explain, because sometimes my wife, she'll be like, I don't understand why you're so, you know, paranoid about this. You're good. You don't stop working. You keep going like that. You don't have to worry. You don't have. You don't have to worry about you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I know, but, like, what if? Like, so I got to be ready for these what ifs, and I have to foresee things that may or may not come. And I think that is also, like, being really locked in and having intuition about what you're doing. And you can only be that way if you're truly obsessed with it, because then you connect with it.

[B]

Well, that's a great point. Obsession, like, people often ask, what is the one skill you have to have as an entrepreneur or the most important skill? And I always say it's obsession. You have to be able to dig in and just. No matter what happens, if it's just passion. Passion comes and goes. It's like the first part in a relationship. It's exciting. The chemicals are flowing, and you want to be around each other all the time. And after a couple years, you know, scientists say that that wears off, and then you're with each other.

[A]

All right, this is it. This is the deal.

[B]

We got to figure out how to work together. And if we want to, you know, have a family and, you know, build something, then that's. That's about commitment and sticking to it and being obsessed about the relationship, working on it continually. That word, you know, assuming it's good enough and just kind of letting it go to the wayside.

[A]

Obsession is a funny word. People love to bag on obsession. You're obsessed, you're upset. Negative connotation everywhere. I know with that word, it's like, is it meant to be negative?

[B]

Every high achiever I've ever spoke to, they. They'll. That's exactly what they say. They're like, I'm just obsessed. Yeah, I'm. Except about the Process what that looks like, how to get better. I was. I went on a spring break with one of our family friends. His name's Ryan, but his stage name is Cascade. He's like a famous dj.

[A]

I know who he is.

[B]

Tens of millions of dollars a year or whatever.

[A]

He just name drop Cascade. I went on vacation with Ca Cascade.

[B]

We're sitting on this beach in Fiji, and I'm like, so how did you get to where you are today? Like, what? You know, what was it really like, what. What's the secret sauce to what you do? Because I actually don't listen to, like, a lot of DJs. Like, I like music, but, yeah, I don't listen. I'm super into.

[A]

My wife does, but.

[B]

And he's like, you know, I just. I stuck with it. It's like, there are so many other DJs out there that were better than me, but it's a hard life, you know, getting into it and just going. And he's like, I just never gave up. He's like. And, you know, 20 years later, here I am.

[A]

Yeah, he's a man.

[B]

Dude. He's big.

[A]

That's a. That's a. He's a big dj. That's the point, though. People always go. And I mentioned this on the. On another show this week. It was. People always say, well, be careful, because only 1% of people are successful at this. It's like, but why is that? Is it because it's impossible? No, it's because 99 of the other people just quit. Yeah, they just stopped. They just stopped going for it. Like, you. You have to be able to stick with something. You have to be able to be like, all right, I'm in this. Like, can I do this every day? If I would never make a dime, would I like having conversations on. In front of a camera, on a microphone? Hell, yeah, why not? I get to learn about somebody, right? To learn your whole. Most of your journey right now, can't fit it all into an hour, but, like, I get to learn about you. And I'm obsessed with this process of getting to sit down with people, hearing their stories and seeing how we're similar, right? Like that. That's a main passion. But never giving up is super important. Like, people. People quit, man. Like, what's that book, Three Feet From Gold? Have you heard about that one?

[B]

I don't know if I have. So I've read a lot of network.

[A]

Marketing companies use the reference. This book, right? Because they want you to keep prospecting and sliding into DMs and getting people to watch your video. But essentially this one guy stopped digging. They were trying to find the gold. Stop digging. Somebody else came in, dug three feet gold.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, literally, you don't know. You better exhaust every option, you know, if you're going to quit on something, you have to know you have to be okay. If somebody else hits it, I can have no reaction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I'm just done. But, dude, his advice, it's so funny because, like, I laugh and I get speechless because somebody so big as Cascade, what was your secret to your success? Just kept going.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel, I feel I like that too. Just like, I just kept sticking with it. There was. I had a college professor and I said, you know what we were talking about, like, how do people create lots and lots of wealth? And he said, you know, over my lifetime, what I've seen, I've studied, you know, thousands of businesses. They, you have an entrepreneur, he just sticks or he or she sticks with it, like long term. And they'll go all the way in their 60s, 70s, 80s, grinding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they'll build billions of dollars of wealth. And it's like, oh, yeah. Well, yeah, if they'd quit after 10, 20 years, you know, then they may have had hundreds of millions or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. But, yeah, it's funny because I always. You always. You always get the question right. Like, I don't know. It's funny to me because you people always push back on this part and I don't understand it. Like, I just don't understand. They're like, no, give me the real. You're saying, stick with it. Give me the real story. Like, what did you do? I'm like, this is it. Why does there have to be a drawn out answer? It's like, this is the most simple, direct approach. Don't stop.

[B]

Yeah. And every waking minute I'm thinking about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm totally focused on it. And maybe it depends on your life. Right. Like, I think of the same, like, I think of the word workaholic. You know, it's like it's this negative thing. But every manager loves a workaholic or every entrepreneur is a workaholic, you know, but it's. It's times and seasons in your life when you can dedicate it, it becomes negative. When it's distracting, it's pulling you maybe away from your family. When it's like you need to have certain priorities or whatever and you have to learn how to scale back to it.

[A]

That's definitely not helpful. When you're Taking your time. So much time away from your children, and they don't know you. You're not there to parent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think that needs to be reworked. Right. But you can still be obsessed and still be a mom or a dad and be an amazing present parent. Yeah. And still be a workaholic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, because from the. From the guardrails of eight to three, I'm locked in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, when I go home from 3 to about 7 or 8 or 8:30, it's them.

[B]

Yeah. And when you start out, you're young and, like, you don't know crap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, your advantage is working crazy hours because you got to accumulate all that knowledge. And then 10 years down the road now you. You're a lot smarter and you have more experience, and you can lean on your experience while you start to step back as you start to build, you know, have a family, and you need to spend more time outside of the office. It's like, well, I got the experience to run circles around these younger ones, but the ones who are, you know, working crazy hours and gaining that knowledge, like, they're going to, you know, they're going to be your boss someday.

[A]

Absolutely, man.

[B]

Or go be an entrepreneur and something else.

[A]

Well, listen, man, I know. Oh, shoot, man. You. You. You got to get going to the airport, somebody. But before we end the show, I want to ask you the one specific question. The word determination, to me is super important. And for me, what it means is doing what you said you were going to do, no matter how you feel emotionally at that time. I don't believe determination is this gritty, sexy thing that everybody thinks it is. It's just showing up. If you can't put your shoes on, just put one of them on. That is determination. And your determination is going to look different every single day. What is your true definition of determination?

[B]

I tend to think as I've gotten older, I started to analyze myself a lot more, asking questions like, why did I do what I did? And when you start to go back, you know, most therapists will say, we'll go back and look at your childhood. That'll probably give you the majority of the answers for what you're looking for. And I had this theory that every entrepreneur has a chip on their shoulder about something. I found that most high achievers, they didn't come from easy circumstances. There's something that was hard, and then it later drove them. And for. For me, it was actually, I. My parents almost lost their home when I was a kid, and my mom kind of slipped and told me about it when my dad was gone five days a week traveling. It scared me to death, like. And I never talked about it with them, but I realized at a young age I needed to have financial control. And so I got a job when I was 14 at a pizza parlor. At 15, working McDonald's, you know, working a bunch of construction jobs, like all that kind of thing. Just, you know, trying to, you know, have extra money to support myself. I think you have to decide what is that one thing that drives you? And for a long time I didn't quite realize it was that. But as I got older, I started to look back and for a long time I was just having fun, working my ass off, you know, just thinking, oh, this is what successful people do. But I realized, like many of my other friends, like, that wasn't as important to them, you know, And I had to figure out, like, what. What is it that's driving me? And do I really need to be running as hard maybe you know, as. As I was?

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And so when, you know, after 20 years, when I finally decided to sell, I really felt like I'd learned everything I was going to learn from that industry. And I was starting to get bored. I was already getting bored when I became chairman and founder of my last company. And I just said, you know what? I think there's, there's other things I can learn, other industries I can go explore. There's new things for me to go seek out. But know what it, if you actually can know what it is that drives you and know you're good with that, you can really lean on that chip. Somebody else told me that chips put chips in people's pockets.

[A]

Yeah, they do, man. I mean, I've got a, I got a crater sized chip on my shoulder, man. It's just the way it is. I know how to, I know how to work through it better now because before it was more of a. I was so. A lot of trauma, you know, just, it was basically what it was is if you don't make it as a baseball player, what are you going to be? You don't have any other skills.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So now it's like, hold my beer. Watch this, right? Like, you can't make money on your voice. Watch me.

[B]

Right? And there's nothing better. It's like gasoline on a fire. When somebody who sells tells me, you can't do this, you can't do that. It's. It's too hard, it's impossible. You know, only the 1% of 1% can pull that off. Okay, watch me.

[A]

Watch. Grab your popcorn, dude, because you're gonna. You're gonna be watching for a very long time. And. And for me, it's always that. It is. If I'm ever slighted in such a way, if someone says something to me in a certain way and. And minimizes what we've built.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will never forget that. I will never forget that. And I will work endlessly to make you see me wherever you go. Like, literally every time you open up your phone, I'm gonna be there. My face. I'll never say anything to those people, but.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I'm gonna win so much that it. That it makes you think. Like, damn, I was wrong.

[B]

Yeah. You just put your head down.

[A]

I just put my head down and.

[B]

Let your work speak for itself.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's funny. I remember real quick, and I know you had something to say, but we were at a. Like a. An annual meeting when we were with paychecks. My wife was in the Miami offices. I was in the Fort Myers office. We're both sales reps. That's how we met. And we had a new one come in, a new sales rep come in. And we're. We're good friends to this day. Like, we don't see each other talk much, but when we do, it's like, what's up, man?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was standing there with my wife. We weren't married yet. And he comes up, and he introduces himself to me. He's like, nice to meet you. He's like, I'm going to beat your ass this year. And I just looked at him. I'm like, okay. That's all I said. And my wife goes, you have no idea what you just did. You just put jet. You just put jet fuel in an engine. He's going to bury you. I just. I operate like that. I don't know why, but I've learned to deal with it in a healthier manner now because before it would. It would tear me apart. Like, I would be quiet on the outside, but on the inside, I was so angry and just felt like. Just disrespected, and I just had to just pound my chest and win. Now I just do it silently.

[B]

You know, if you. If you want to supercharge your business, you know, have a villain, you know, find a competitor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you want to compete against. Yeah. That has maybe said, you know, talk crap about your company or, you know, done, you know, hurt you in some way. It'll drive you, like, Crazy to build the business the fastest in those times. Over my. Over my career.

[A]

Yeah, I got some villains. I got some villains, man.

[B]

But the one other thing I'd say is, in terms of, like, trauma, I really think that's the secret, is looking at as a gift, because the big question in my mind is, would I have done what I did without it? And so for how long do you look at that and go, I can't believe that happened? Oh, so tough. I really didn't like that point in my life, but maybe who I am.

[A]

And I'm grateful for that.

[B]

Right, Absolutely.

[A]

So I'll just. I'll just sit there in that energy, man. Well, dude, it's just so nice to talk to you, man.

[B]

Of course, yeah.

[A]

When I have to want to go out to la, I have to hit you up, dude. We'll have to get some dinner or something. Be great to connect with you again. But thank you so much for coming on the show, telling your story, and give them some real value to the audience. So we've got a lot of people that want to either start things or. Or do have their own businesses that are just kind of looking to. For another. Another perspective of how to build something. So I think they learned that from you today.

[B]

Yeah, I've got mine. I'm excited to help others get theirs.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, guys, share this episode with someone you know love and trust. Go check Dave Royce out on Instagram. Go just Google search his name and watch all the interviews he's been on so you can hear more of his story. Because every host that talks to Dave has a different approach and something may have been said on another show that you don't want to miss that just wasn't necessarily said here. But again, go check out everything he's done and thank you guys for watching and listen. Until next time, stay determined.