Is This Andrea Bartz's Most Twisted Thriller Yet?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Determined Society with Shawn French

Episode: Is This Andrea Bartz's Most Twisted Thriller Yet?
Release Date: August 4, 2025
Guest: Andrea Bartz, Acclaimed Author
Host: Shawn French

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I. Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Determined Society Podcast, host Shawn French engages in an in-depth conversation with bestselling author Andrea Bartz. Known for her gripping personal development discussions and featuring accomplished entrepreneurs and influencers, Shawn delves into Andrea's latest work, exploring the intricate blend of personal struggles and creative expression that defines her storytelling.

II. Exploring "The Last Ferry Out"

Andrea Bartz introduces her newest thriller, The Last Ferry Out, which has garnered attention as part of Reese’s Book Club and achieved New York Times bestseller status.

Plot Overview: The novel centers on a grieving young woman who journeys to an island off the coast of Mexico to cope with the tragic loss of her fiancé in what appears to be an accident. Upon her arrival, she encounters a group of charismatic expats who knew her fiancé. As she integrates into their close-knit community, she begins to suspect that the accident was no accident. The suspense escalates when a text message hints at the truth behind her fiancé’s death, leading her to question if a killer is stalking the island.

Andrea describes the book as a "puzzle box mystery" with multiple timelines and narrators, aiming to create a narrative that is both twisty and engaging.

Notable Quote:

"The Last Ferry Out is a twisty, puzzle box mystery with different timelines and narrators. I had so much fun writing it, and I hope it's really fun to read too."
— Andrea Bartz [01:04]

III. Andrea Bartz’s Creative Process: Turning Anxiety into Art

Andrea shares how her naturally anxious and "dark" mind fuels her creative process. She explains that her tendency to dwell on worst-case scenarios allows her to construct intricate and suspenseful narratives, transforming personal fears into captivating storylines.

Key Insights:

• Channeling Fear: Andrea discusses how she uses her anxious thoughts as a catalyst for creating thrilling plots, ensuring her stories resonate with readers’ emotions.
• Mindset Shift: By viewing paranoid thoughts as creative fuel, she shifts her focus from fear to storytelling, enabling her to develop compelling characters and mysteries.

Notable Quotes:

"If I think about it, if I learn about it, then it can't happen. I've already thought through how my main character will escape a terrible situation."
— Andrea Bartz [08:21]

"If I can turning something scary into a narrative, that's empowering."
— Andrea Bartz [09:00]

IV. Embracing and Processing Emotions Through Writing

Andrea emphasizes the importance of confronting uncomfortable emotions rather than numbing them. Her writing serves as a form of catharsis, allowing her to explore aspects of herself that society often overlooks, such as female rage, shame, and insecurities.

Key Points:

• Vulnerability in Storytelling: By embedding her personal struggles into her characters, Andrea creates authentic and relatable narratives that evoke strong emotional responses from readers.
• Handling Feedback: She acknowledges that not all feedback will be positive, but views negative reactions as indicators that her work is impactful and thought-provoking.

Notable Quotes:

"The way that you defang shame is by taking it out into the light."
— Andrea Bartz [19:35]

"If someone hated the book, it means I triggered something in them. That's a sign that the writing is powerful."
— Shawn French [22:53]

V. Determination vs. Hustle Culture

The conversation shifts to the theme of determination, contrasting it with the prevalent hustle culture. Andrea defines determination as finding a balance between striving for future goals and being compassionate towards oneself in the present moment.

Key Insights:

• Healthy Determination: Encouraging a mindset that values self-care and acknowledges when to push forward and when to pause.
• Critique of Hustle Culture: Andrea and Shawn discuss how relentless pursuit of goals without regard for personal well-being can be detrimental, advocating instead for a more sustainable approach to personal development.

Notable Quotes:

"Determination means finding the right balance between moving forward and being kind to yourself."
— Andrea Bartz [40:00]

"Determination isn't just a gritty, sexy thing. It's about being kind to yourself even when you want to give up."
— Shawn French [42:09]

VI. The Role of Connection and Empathy in Creativity

Andrea and Shawn explore how creative outlets like writing and podcasting foster empathy and connection among people. They highlight the universal nature of human experiences and the power of storytelling in bridging differences.

Key Points:

• Universal Themes: By delving into personal and relatable emotions, Andrea's stories connect with a wide audience, transcending individual backgrounds.
• Creative Empathy: Engaging in creative pursuits allows both creators and consumers to step into different lives, enhancing understanding and compassion.

Notable Quotes:

"Art and fiction are just so important for connecting us."
— Andrea Bartz [31:23]

"We're all trying to do our best, and the commonality of adversity is so similar."
— Shawn French [30:39]

VII. Andrea’s Journey as an Author

Andrea reflects on her growth as a writer, discussing her experience in writing six books since 2014. She shares insights into her writing process, including drafting timelines and revisions, emphasizing continual improvement and mastery of her craft.

Key Points:

• Writing Process: Andrea takes approximately four to six months to complete a first draft, followed by extensive revisions to refine her narratives.
• Continuous Learning: She believes that each book builds upon the skills developed from previous works, contributing to her evolving storytelling prowess.

Notable Quotes:

"I'm working on my sixth book now, and each one builds on the skills from the ones before."
— Andrea Bartz [37:58]

"Writing is hard every time, but I'm leveling up with each book."
— Andrea Bartz [38:05]

VIII. Conclusion: Embracing Determination

As the conversation wraps up, Andrea and Shawn encapsulate their views on determination. Andrea underscores the importance of recognizing one’s inherent worth and the value of balancing ambition with self-compassion. They advocate for fostering a society where determination is fueled by love and empathy rather than external validation and relentless hustle.

Final Thoughts:

• Sustainable Success: True determination involves honoring one’s worth and pursuing goals in a way that uplifts oneself and others.
• Positive Impact: By focusing on serving others and contributing positively, individuals can create meaningful change and personal fulfillment.

Notable Quotes:

"Determination is about honoring your worthiness and keeping your vision on being the best you can be."
— Andrea Bartz [40:54]

"One is fueled out of comparison, and one is fueled out of love. I'm going to choose the latter."
— Shawn French [42:50]

Final Remarks

Shawn encourages listeners to support Andrea by exploring her latest book, The Last Ferry Out, available since summer 2025. The episode concludes with a heartfelt reminder for the audience to "stay determined," encapsulating the episode's central theme of balanced ambition and self-kindness.

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Key Takeaways:

• Andrea Bartz transforms personal anxieties into captivating thriller narratives.
• Embracing and expressing uncomfortable emotions can lead to authentic and impactful storytelling.
• True determination balances forward momentum with self-compassion, opposing the unsustainable demands of hustle culture.
• Creative endeavors foster empathy, connection, and a deeper understanding of universal human experiences.

Recommended Actions for Listeners:

• Dive into Andrea Bartz’s The Last Ferry Out to experience her latest thriller.
• Reflect on personal definitions of determination and seek a balanced approach to personal and professional goals.
• Embrace creative outlets as tools for emotional expression and personal growth.

Transcript

[A]

We don't like seeing women be full of rage. We don't like seeing women, you know, feel embarrassed because they're still single later than they thought they would be or any of these things. I bring those into my books because they are all aspects of myself and of my psyche and, like, the stuff that I'm sort of most ashamed of. I work it in different ways. Obviously, there's not a lot of real murder in my actual life, but these feelings real and actually none of the murder. To be clear.

[B]

What's she telling us, guys? She has bodies buried somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, well, only I know where the bodies are buried. Don't worry.

[B]

Andrea Bart's new book out, the Last Ferry out, you've wrote many, many books. You know, part of Reese's Book Club, New York time, bestseller. So talk to us about this specific book. And I know you can't give a lot away, but let's. I want to get. I want the audience to get a peek behind your mind, because this is a thriller. And. And from what I started reading, I'm like, whoa, this is kind of twisted. So what's wrong with you? Really twisted.

[A]

You know, twisted, twisty. All of the above. I'm a very nice person with a very dark mind. That's just. I think maybe. Maybe they feed each other. Maybe because I put all the darkness into the books, I can be very, you know, light and happy during the day. But the Last Fairy out, it came out summer 2025, and it tells the tale of a grieving young woman whose fiance died on an island off of Mexico a few months earlier in a tragic accident. So she travels to this island herself to just experience it, sort of, you know, say goodbye and have that moment of closure. But while she's there, she meets this really enchanting group of expats that have made this island their home. And of course, they knew and spent time with her fiance when her fiance was there. And the more she gets to know them, the more. The more she begins to suspect that maybe this accident wasn't an accident at all. Maybe something actually went down. Then one morning, she wakes to a text from one of these expats, and it says, you deserve to know the truth about Esther, your fiance. Meet me at the cafe, 9am so she rushes to meet him, and not only does he stand her up, but he seems to have disappeared from the island altogether. So now she's left with all sorts of questions and trying to figure out what happened to her new friend, what happened to her fiance, and if she's trapped on an island with a killer. So that's sort of the, the general idea and it's twisty, like you said, and it's kind of a puzzle box mystery. It's got different timelines, different narrators. And I had so much fun writing it. So hopefully it's really fun to read too.

[B]

You know, it's funny because it's like, it's like one of those storylines that you would, you know, pick up on one of the streaming services for the limited series and just go, just face into that thing and binge it and be done in two days.

[A]

I'm in. That's the idea. When people tell me that they read this whole thing in a day or two, that's the ultimate compliment.

[B]

I just think it could be a streaming thing too because like, that, that, like, if you look at what's going on in the world, right, you know, books come into life and, you know, then even like Netflix or Hulu creating their own type of, you know, shows that, that twist the mind of the viewers and. But also things that could actually happen. Right. And I think that's what's interesting about the last ferry out because it takes place, you know, in this beautiful island that it was very touristy, but then a hurricane came in, right, and swept it out, you know, a few years ago. So it's, you know, not as, I mean, it's more desolate than it was previously. And that could actually happen in real life. So, you know, I don't know, in your process, how did you think of, of this concept and then bring it to life in the pages?

[A]

Yeah, that's a great question. So back in February 2020, right before the pandemic, though of course, I didn't know that. I spent months traveling solo around Mexico by myself. So I was meeting people everywhere I went the way that you do when you're traveling alone. And I was just meeting these really friendly, welcoming, interesting kind of charismatic expats everywhere I went. And they were from all over. They were from Sweden and Australia and the U.S. canada and everywhere. And, you know, while I was there, while I was in town, I was just one of them. And there were these really interesting motley cruise of people who were so, you know, close knit and such good friends. But I remember thinking, I don't know if you, if you all lived in the same country where everyone spoke English, I don't know that you would be friends. Like, I don't think this is a, that would otherwise come together. Wow. And all they really had in common as far as I could tell was that they had all kind of chosen to parachute out of their lives, right? Like, left behind their friends and their family and their careers and just the whole life they were born into to be here. And it was interesting because they were sort of, you know, maybe learning a little Spanish, maybe a little bit integrating into this society, but they were their own little world, their own little microcosm. And I'm not super interested in talking about their past or talking about work or jobs or any of that. Just very kind of in the moment, like living in paradise. And I was envious, but I was also a little turned off. And I was like, but I also want to be you. I just knew I had some feelings about it. And, you know, I love taking kind of close knit, closed door social media and just throwing a dead body in the center and making a whole mystery around that. So cool. That was. That was what I did. And then that sort of desolate island that, you know, there's a debate on the island, the fictional island of the last ferry out, that the community is sort of going through of like, do we rebuild? Do we try to become a tourist destination again? And especially the expats are very against it. They're sort of like, you know, we don't want all those. Those tourists coming in and ruining our island time. Of course, tourism brings, you know, brings dollars and brings money and can supercharge the economy, right? So I wanted to watch that kind of play out on this island too, where it's a small community with a lot of different opinions about sort of the future of the island. And then the last element that I sort of sprinkled into this, this stew was that I'm first generation Hungarian. My mom was born in Hungary, okay? And I. And her, Her. She was brought over as a child, but my grandparents always had thick accents and had to learn English upon getting here. But they were always. They were so determined to sort of be seen as American, but they were always immigrants. No one ever called them expats, right? And so there's just this interesting dichotomy. I gave one of the narrators a similar background where she's first generation and her parents came over from Hungary, because I think that that sort of dichotomy to talk about people in the world shows up where, you know, one is a person, an expat or a visitor versus an immigrant versus a true American or Mexican or part of this community. And I wanted to sort of play with that tension as well. So I got into it.

[B]

So creative. Because I. Because, you know, like, I think we all can kind of. When I travel internationally, I always think of, like, all the bad things that can happen. Does that when you're there, right? And you're. You're traveling for a month by yourself, which is not a hundred percent safe, right? That's a risk. So good on you for being that open and wanting to do that. I don't know that I'm even brave enough to tackle something like that. Like, how do I pay for stuff? Like, what do I do? But, you know, I'm not a worldly traveler. But in those moments when you're kind of hanging around and thinking like, wow, this could be really messed up, something like this could happen in this way. Do you take your certain fears that you may have and then mold them into your style of writing?

[A]

Oh, absolutely. That's a really good way of putting it. I have the most sort of, I don't know, anxious mind where I'll be in even a neutral situation and friends will make fun of me because sometimes I do it a lot. We'll be in a totally neutral situation together, and I'll just be the creepy person who's like, you know, like, that person was so nice, but wouldn't it be weird if he actually, like, you know, locked us away in a cabinet and happened? And everyone's like, why would you say that?

[B]

Why are you summoning this on us? Why are you like this, that out there?

[A]

And I think for me, it's almost like. It's almost similar to the reason some people are obsessed with true crime. It's like, if I think about it, if I learn about it, if I hear about it or read about it or watch it, then it can't happen. And I think there's a similar thing for me where it's like, if the absolute worst case scenario happened, what would I do? How would I figure it out? How would I get out of it? And for me, that gets sort of channeled into these narratives, these, these mysteries of, like, terrible things are happening. How is my main character going to get out of it? Because then maybe if I find myself in a terrible situation, I'll have already thought through.

[B]

I've already done this. I've already been here. I've done it already. I've already escaped this. I asked the question because I also have a very anxious mind, right? And so, like, I'm very interested because, like, even when we just went to South America and we went to my wife's home country, Ecuador, and like, even Just flying in the plane. I'm looking out the window. I'm like, what happens if, like, what, What. What if I see another plane? Like, my mind is constantly, always working, and it's really hard. So how do you. How do you channel that? Because for me, it's been a challenge.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, it was a big mindset shift when I could start to see those sort of paranoid. Paranoid lines of thinking as. As grist, as fuel for creativity. And so when I'm in the mindset of what would happen if. Yeah, something went wrong with the plane right now, that's very scary, if I can say. But wait, it'd be interesting if what went wrong with the plane was this. But then, you know, the. Then this person got to stand up and do this, and then this happened, and then. Ooh. And then my brain is. It sort of shunted off its track of just spiraling around fear. And instead I'm activating, I think, on a brain level, right. I'm. I'm sort of shutting down the amygdala in order to let the prefrontal cortex, like, come out and be creative and. And turn it into a narrative. And I think I'm kind of playing mind games with myself. But if I can tell myself, ooh, no, this is interesting. Start writing this down instead of, this is scary. And I can't stop just circling around and around and around it. For me, that's empowering.

[B]

It sure is. Because you're talking about taking action on something. Right. And so it's like, a lot of times when we have these scary moments in our life, whether it's writing a book or traveling or something going on on a very deep personal level, if we shift out of all the bad that can happen, right. And you're all of a sudden go, okay, what can I do right now? To move forward just a little bit. It gives off a little bit of power.

[A]

And.

[B]

And if you do that enough, it becomes, like, this muscle that you work. Right. It's kind of my experience.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's really true. And I think. I mean, even for those who aren't fortunate, like me, to have a career of turning these things into, you know, I have a real reason to take those scary thoughts and turn them into something. But even with stuff that's not thriller book adjacent, it's like, if I can shift from being in that fear to actually looking at that fear from one level back in my case, it's like, as an author, then that sort of gives me the power To. Okay, and now we're going to hit pause on thinking about this. So, you know, I think even for scenarios that don't necessarily lend themselves to a narrative, if you can say, if you can sort of catch yourself, oh, I'm really stuck on this. Like, I've had this thought over and over, and you notice that you did that, and then you can sort of take this step back of like, man, I'm ruining this walk by just thinking this one thought. What if instead I tried to, you know, look at the flowers, the wildflowers around me, or whatever it is. You're gaining this control and you're taking some action to just stop that, you know, sort of swirling around a drain.

[B]

It's so interesting, Andrea, because on a daily basis, we're all doing things. We're driving to our next appointment, to our next lunch, or we're going to sleep at night or. Or something. And we never know truly what's going to happen that next moment. I think to your point, though, a lot of us miss a lot of beauty because we're so worried about all the bad things that can happen instead of shifting into how beautiful is this current moment.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, am I actually in danger right now? No. Well, then why am I acting like I'm in danger? Why is my whole body activated? Like I'm in some kind of danger, and I think I'm related. Go ahead.

[B]

It's like you're always on guard at that point. Right? You're always, like, tense.

[A]

Right? Right. Just like. Like girding your loins for something. And I find a kind of related issue that I have that I'm working on too, is there's. There's the fear of something bad happening, but we also have sort of this fear of boredom and fear of not having, you know, just fear of sitting with our own thoughts in a more positive way or daydreaming or wasting time. Which that sort of idea of, you know, wasting time versus allowing yourself to be in the moment actually gets explored in the Last Fairy out as well. But I know people who will have a portable. I'm thinking of someone I dated. He had a portable speaker, and he would have a podcast on all the time, and he would go from one room to the next room, and it was just podcast after podcast.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I just remember thinking like, you are never alone with your thoughts. You are never sitting in silence. You know, when I'm brushing my teeth at night, it can be quiet. That's okay. I don't need additional, you know, I Don't need anything. Sometimes if I'm driving, I just turn off the radio and it's just me in a car and, you know, just being. Letting myself be quiet for a minute. And I think that's sort of a lost art. And especially as we have our phones and we have games on our phones and we have so many things we can do while we're standing in line at the grocery store, can be really easy to never let yourself just be. And, you know, as a writer, I think it's essential. And as a human, I think it's essential.

[B]

I agreed on both points, right. As a writer and as a human being, because. And I can relate to. To him. There was a time where if I was in the gym or I was in my truck or just even around, I had to have something on. It was almost that crutch, Right. Like, I need to have this podcast on in order for me to move forward in my life. I'm looking for the silver bullet, right, That I can put in my holster in my chamber and fire it at any moment. And I'm good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the reality is, is I never found what my silver bullet was until I started taking action instead of listening. So there was a while, Andrea, where I took all podcasts and stopped listening. I stopped. Oh, absolutely. I stopped listening to all personal development. I stopped listening to all podcasts, and I just went so hard inward on me. And that's when I pretty much started creating the show. I was like, wait a second, I'm gonna find my own way. And too many people are looking elsewhere, right. When we really need to find, like, what makes us special, what makes us tick, what's going to make us bring some serious value to the world, because we all have that purpose. In order to do so, you just got to find the thing, and you can't find it if it's too noisy.

[A]

Absolutely. I agree. 100. And to be clear, we're very pro podcast here, right? And I'm very proud.

[B]

Freaking Luly, man. There's tons the determine society all the way. Just the only one, guys. It's the only one you need to listen to. No, no, but, no, I'm very pro podcast. But. But to your point, though, for a while, I had to be still. And that's okay, you know, and that's hard for someone who has adhd, you know, high anxiety. It's like, oh, my gosh. Like, my mind is a dangerous neighborhood that I'm walking through alone right now. And I don't like it, but I Also think for the audience listening, it's necessary.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's another kind of important dichotomy, is that it's so important to take action. Right? Like we said, it's so important to, you know, choose what's important to you and go after it and think about what you want in life. And also, they're not at odds. And also, we need to be still. Right. It's like knowing when to be moving forward and when to actually be pausing and just being in the moment because you can't really have one without the other.

[B]

It's true. And I also find that a lot of people, they'll see that, I guess that that part of their mind that's very, very scary, and they run from it. Right. Instead of. What I find very useful is leaning into that pain and just kind of find an understanding where it comes from. And so that way I know when to move on and take action, and I know when to sit. To sit there and literally just bathe in it, you know?

[A]

Yeah. We have such. Such an aversion to feeling unpleasant feelings. Right. And.

[B]

No.

[A]

And now, especially in, you know, 2025, we have so many ways to not. You can be on. You can, you know, be scrolling on your phone instead of actually feeling a feeling at any moment or something's, you know, difficult. Now we have AI to just jump in and kind of handle it for you. If all of these. These different crutches in different ways, not to say that any of them, you know, don't have a place, but we all gain so much from resisting the temptation to, like, numb those feelings, take the shortcuts and just, you know, the stuff that makes us human and that brings us actual, you know, joy and wholeness and comfort and all those important things is not running away from the negative stuff. It's letting that be part of the.

[B]

Experience, you know, that's very hard for a lot of people. Right. But for you, as. As a writer, how is that? I mean, because to me, that's an outlet, right? It's a way for you to sit with your feelings, but also know to know when to say, okay, this isn't real, or this is. This may be real, but this is fake. Over here. Let me. Let me dive into my creative mind. How has writing helped you filter through those moments?

[A]

Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, something that's really important in all of my books is that my narrators bring to light. Well, my books, through the narrators, bring to Light these sort of aspects of the human experience and largely the female experience that we as a society don't love talking about. We. We don't like seeing women be full of rage. We don't like female shame. We don't like talking about that. We don't like thinking about it. We don't like. Other than in sort of a mean, mean girls way. We don't like seeing women not support each other, be envious or jealous of each other. We don't like seeing women, you know, feel embarrassed because they're behind in life or they didn't reach certain landmarks they thought, or they're, you know, still single later than they thought they would be, or any of these things. And I bring those into my books because they are all aspects of myself and of my psyche and like, the stuff that I'm sort of most ashamed of. I work it in different ways. Obviously, there's not a lot of real murder in my actual life, but these feelings, real. And actually none of them are, to be clear, feelings are very real.

[B]

What's she telling us, guys? She has bodies buried somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, well, only I know where the bodies are buried. Don't worry. But these, these elements, whenever I am, you know, going deep in these. These tough emotions that a character is feeling, and I'm trying to put them into words, part of it is catharsis for me, because putting them into words is taking power over them, right? Taking some. Some control. But also it's like the more uncomfortable I am because I'm worried people will judge it, judge the character, judge the book. The more I know, like, I'm on the right track and that I have to put that vulnerability onto the pain page. And I mean, it has meant that there will be. There will always be people who read my books and say, oh, I didn't. I didn't like them. I just. The main character was so unlikable. I just, you know that there's going to be people who see that that's going to trigger something in them, probably something they don't want to face, and therefore they're just going to go, I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like her. I didn't like that she had these emotions. I didn't like that I had to read about them, you know, even if they're entirely internal, even if she's not, you know, hurting people or saying any of this, just having these feelings. Because. And the reason it's so important to me is because the way that you Defang shame is by taking it out into the light. Right. I have found this with, you know, my own career. If somebody tags me in an incredibly vicious review that just tears apart one of my books, I see that my chest sinks, my stomach sinks, you know, my. My heart just. Just. It's. It's so painful. And the temptation is, nobody can know. I can't let anyone know because this is so. They're right and I'm awful, and this is so shameful and so embarrassing. And I'm. I'm. This is really saying something about me as a person and me as a writer. But I have found that if I can have the bravery to share it and talk about it and express, you know, why I know I'm doing something right. If some people love it and some people hate it, and I. You know, how I have to keep going even though some people are going to hate my work, when I share it, that's when the groundswell of support comes in and I'm reminded, like, suddenly I have perspective. Suddenly. That was just one random person on Instagram who tagged me for God knows what reason. Right? So.

[B]

And it could be just about them, too, right? Like, to your point, you could have triggered something in them that really pissed them off, reminded them of somebody else in the past, and now you are the punching bag. But I'm going to tell you something from my perspective. I'm listening to this and, like, that's what gives your writing so much power, because you're able to evoke that real emotion through real life, even though it's thriller. You're taking your own experiences that people can really relate to, putting them on the pages and then what happens thereafter. That's not your. It's so funny. It's not your. It's not your. It's none of your business. Not your. Or your responsibility. Right? And so you're. You're now receiving what it did for somebody in their life. And I'm going to tell you something. That one person that said they hated the book or hated that character, that's the person that got the most out of the book.

[A]

That's a great. That's a great point. It brought something out, right? It. It did something to them. It made them feel something big.

[B]

Very visceral. Yeah.

[A]

Book that's just sort of milquetoast and forgettable. Like, that's not what I'm going for. That's not what I know.

[B]

Yeah, you like, hey, I want you to love me or hate me. Which one is it? Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I know I'm doing something right if I'm going to have extremes. And this is reminding me too. And this is something I'm always encouraging authors or really anyone to do. I have a. On my desktop, I have a folder that's just called Nice Things. And when somebody sends me either tags me in a really beautiful review or even better, sends me a DM or an email that tells me how much one of my books meant to them and why not? Just, I thought it was so fun. I read it in two days. But, like, this really spoke to me. This, you know, somebody said. And I'm going to tear up thinking about it. Somebody said it made me look at myself and my past in a new way. And like, when someone's really touched, I need to save those things because, my God, I'm going to need them later when I'm, you know, down in the dumps and really doubting myself. And so I save them, I PDF it, I screenshot it, whatever. I put it into this folder. But you just made me realize for the first time that, yeah, it's not just that they liked my books. It's sort of the mirror image of those really upset email. I could do good emails, too. The emails and the DMs and the, you know, tags where someone's really activated, it's sort of the, the inverse of that. And you're right, they both point to the same conclusion, which is that I am saying something uncomfortably true. And that's what I'm setting out to do. So in one way or another, I'm achieving that goal.

[B]

Well, I think you're playing.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're not playing, but you have two sides of emotion, right? And as long as there's emotion evoked on either end of the spectrum, I, I think that's. You're doing a great job because you, like you said, you don't want somebody like, milk toast. This is like, all right, cool. Like, like, that's not. You don't put years into writing a. Writing a book is not easy, right? You go through writing the, the manuscript at your level. Now you probably talk to your, you know, your, your agent, your publisher, hey, I'm going to write this book. And cool. It's done, right? Maybe. But at the very beginning, you're writing the manuscripts, you're sending it to an agent, they're book pitching it. You're getting a thousand nos before you get that one. One yes. And it may not even be the yes that you were looking for, but then you take it and then now you have this fabulous career. But you know what we have to realize when we're creating, right? You're creating, you know, through words. I'm creating through voice. Someone's always gonna. We're gonna get to a point where someone's always gonna hate us. I, I get. I, I and I, I started getting it that I started interviewing bigger names. I went out to California and I sat down with Jaylen. Now I'm in his car, garage. And it was, it was surreal. It was really awesome, right? And we, we launched the episode, and that was like, in June we launched it, and here we are back half of a April. What? I'm going, like, backwards back half of July. And now I'm starting to get the hatred on YouTube or. Or on Instagram. And one of. The, one of the ones. And I looked at it. This is funny. You're. You're gonna judge me on this, but I'm gonna say it anyway because I'm always real. So this guy writes me, he's like, hey, you know, I love Jay Leno. This interviewer needs to shut the F up. Like, your job is to ask the interview and shut up. No one gives a F about you. And I'm like, hey, man, sweet cat in your profile pic. You're crushing life. I mean, like, I looked at that. I'm like, I'm kind of playing with him. But also, like, I know you're a bot. Why am I even engaging? But I got petty for a moment. You thought it was funny because there was a cat, not a dog.

[A]

I mean, we love that. We love that a cat made an appearance.

[B]

The cat was there, the cat was there. But I mean it just to your point, there's always gonna be those people in, in those moments. And the reason why I tell that story out loud is because my moment right there needed to be a don't respond or thank you for watching. And what we have to realize is that held a mirror up for me. And that mirror for me was like, not everybody respects you yet. Be mad at it, right? So it gives me a little more gas in my tank to keep pushing forward. But at the same time, it was one emotion. At least I got it. At least I got a response, right? When you do big things, people are going to love you or hate you. There's very little in between.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's true. You know, you're reaching people. If you're not, you know, if you're not getting any response, then no one's listening. Or reading and you know, going into it, that, yeah, you're gonna get, you're gonna get comments like that, and if you listen to them, then. Then what? Then your career is over. Then, you know, that's the point.

[B]

I mean, hey, initially triggered me, right? Like, I'm like, what an a hole, man. I wonder. And then I forgot about it. But about a year ago, that probably would have ruined my day because at the beginning, I mean, we're about five years into it almost. But, you know, here's the thing. You know, three years and you're still brand new. Right. Especially in my industry. So, you know, when you hear things, it impacts you a little bit more. But as you start to understand who you are and what your platform or what your, your, your body of writing really is, you can move on from it pretty quickly.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you realize. I totally agree. And you know, I think you're always kind of a beginner in a sense. I feel like you said before, oh, you know, you're a bunch of books in. So now it's easy. No, it's never easy. It's hard every time. It's just hard in different ways. Yeah, but it's sort of, you know, accepting. And I'm sure that's true with you as well, like leveling up challenges, challenging yourself, different, you know, taking on different challenges. And, you know, you sort of know, going into it, if I'm going to be vulnerable, I'm going to get some pushback. And then you get far enough in that you start to actually experience that and, and hear from the people who, you know, have something to say and are going to be jealous of what you're doing or think you don't deserve it or think, I could do that, I would do it better. There's a lot of that and.

[B]

Well, that's what. I love what I'm hearing from you, though, Right, because you're talk. I mean, we're talking fiction, but you're bringing authenticity and vulnerability into it, and that's what makes it so good. I just think that when people disconnect from real life too much and don't bring some type of perspective into their work, I think that's where, you know, greatness is missed. So I love the fact that you do that. That's really cool.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, the phrase, the common phrase is there's. The specific is universal. Right. So if I can get really specific about a feeling I felt or a kind, you know, something that left some lasting impression or something that you Know, something that I had shame around or something like that. That is what's actually going to connect with people and that's what's going to feel universal. And I'm sure you know that with, you know, you're interviewing so many different kinds of people, so many different backgrounds and stories and fields and all these things, and yet, like, there's these commonalities that come up in these scenes that you sort of find and get to bring out.

[B]

It's so wild, right? Like to sit here on the other end of a camera with you right now, speaking with you. Never have met you, connected on social media, but never have actually talked to you. And then when you. When I. When I have the conversation with you, I start to really understand. And this is not just now, but for the audience. I'm just making it about this one specific example is how much we all are alike and go through the same things. Right? It. It. There's no difference. Just some people are really, really, really good at their profession and everybody knows who they are. And some people are very, very good at their profession, just as good as them, but people don't know who they are. But the commonality of adversity and everything that these people are going through is so similar.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And when you. And once you notice that and once you hang on to that and have that perspective, it's just. It's impossible to feel anything other than just sort of love for everyone and all of our little hard lives out there. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All just trying to do our best and. And, you know, it's. It can be very hard. And I think there's plenty of evil in the world and plenty of stuff that is kind of threatening to. To make us want to sort of wall off our hearts and put the armor up. Because it feels essential just to get through the day. I feel that too. But it's like what connects us is so much more powerful than what divides us. Right. I know I'm getting into the cheesy realm, but.

[B]

No, you're going. You're going right where I love. This is perfect.

[A]

Preaching to the choir. But, you know, it's like any sort of creator, whatever you're creating, it has to be about connection. It has to be about, you know, the universality. It has to be about empathy and, you know, fiction more than anything. You're literally putting yourself into the shoes of a character in a scenario you will hopefully never be in. And then as a reader doing the same thing, you're stepping into another life. And that's yeah. That's why I just think, like, art and fiction and, you know, creative pursuits, like, what you do, too, are just so important for connecting us.

[B]

I agree. I think to your point is, you know, we're talking about the same thing and in different, I guess, modalities. Right. It's like books, podcasts. But what we all. What you and I both understand is that we have more that brings us together than separates us. And it's just really hard to see society right now. Right. It's like, even if you look at the Instagram feed, it's like, it's always something negative or gossipy. It's like, yo, guys, all we have to do is switch the narrative a little bit. Like, can one outlet just switch to something positive so somebody else does? And then everybody gets flooded with this positivity. But it's almost like right now, like, yeah, no, no, no, that doesn't sell. Sad.

[A]

It is. Yeah. It's like. It's like we. We. They can capitalize on people by making them upset. And so that's the goal of social media, traditional media. A lot of it is upsetting people because it works on me if I open Instagram before bed, and, like, I will be on it way too long instead of sleeping because it's got me. Got his little hooks in me.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's one of those things where, you know, social media and the way certain angles are, I mean, it's costed people their lives. An app like, can. Can we, like, think about that for a second? You know, then go back to, you know, 1999, when AOL dial up was still there, and the biggest problem was the AOL chat rooms. You know, it's like, look at this. And it's like, man, like, you know, you got cyber bullying for the kids. Like, many kids have taken their lives. This is. It's. I mean, we're go down a completely different wormhole here. But. But to your point, like, if we just focused on positivity and had a little more empathy and. And served more. Right. I just think that we're put here to serve. Like, you're writing, you're serving your reader, you're giving them something, and they keep going back because they feel served. You know, I just think that if we focus more on that, we'd be in a much better place.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think. I think creatives of all type, and I think we're all creatives in different ways. Right. Whether you're a professional artist or not, I just Think, like, these creative outlets and the ways that we can communicate with people and. And connect people, like, have such a crucial role to play. And it's like, you can spend. Can you, like, just. Just thinking about your own time, like, that hour that you're spending, scrolling. And I'm so guilty of this. So I'm saying this to myself as well as. As much as anyone else, but, like, reclaiming our time to be in service and to think, like, what do I really have to offer? What do I really have to give back? Believing that there is something, because there absolutely is, and then figuring out, like, what are the first steps I can take toward doing it. We could all. There's just a day that we could get everyone to do that. Think of one thing you can do that would absolutely be.

[B]

And some people will do that one task a day, like, every single day. And they would. They would get back to the people and, you know, they cause their own nice little ripple effect, right. Of positivity. The way I look at it is, all right, what do I have to give? What are my strengths and what's my purpose, right? And so, like, for me, I found it, and now I utilize that every day to give. And, you know, and I say this very openly. If I did this show just for me, I would have quit a long freaking time ago. I would have. Like, hell with this. I'm going back to my sales career, like, because I know what one plus one equals, you know, like, but. But here with this, it's like, I'm giving. Like, I. I want to serve people. I want people to feel better after listening to our conversation. And I think based on what we've talked about, they will.

[A]

Let's hope.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Moving that needle in the right direction a tiny bit, right?

[B]

Yeah. That's all it takes, right? Just little by little. Let me ask you a question. All right, so multiple books, like I said, you know, Reese. Reese Witherspoon's book, you know, book list. That's pretty dang cool, man. Like, what has been your favorite book to write and why.

[A]

People ask this? And I'm always like, whatever I wrote last is my favorite book, so don't.

[B]

Make me tell you which kid I like best, damn it.

[A]

Well, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. And this surprises people. And I think other people do have different favorites. And I will say, yeah, my Reese's Book Club pick, that one was called We Were Never Here. And, like, it is my by far most popular pick and maybe my most Sort of commercial in that sense. Like, the story is really. You know, my last two books have narrators who are queer like me. They have queer storylines. There's other elements that maybe make them a little bit less mainstream. But, you know, I started writing books. I started working on my first book, the Lost Knight, in 2014, and now I'm writing my sixth book. I. I'm working on that now. If I started playing tennis in 2014, I would sure hope that I'm a much better player now than I was in 2014. Right. I've been doing this nearly every day for 11 years, certainly every week. So I do think any book I write, I could not have written without building on the skills I gained from the ones. The one or ones before it. And that's why I think the Last Fairy out is the best book that I have written yet in just sort of a technical sense, like, just a mastery sense of hopefully getting better and better. You know, that said, people jump into different books and there's, you know, topics that appeal to them, more or less, you know, a format will sound more fun to them. Or, oh, I want the. The two narrators who are sisters. That sounds fun. Or this. This concept to me the most. But I think, you know, I'm always learning. I had, I think, was my editor who was like, no, it's surprising. You just keep getting better. And I was like, do other people not?

[B]

Like, what. What am I doing if I don't? I'm dying. Like, what the hell is good? What do you mean it's surprising? Do you have a ceiling on me? Holy.

[A]

Is everyone else just, like, phoning in their later books? Like, no, I hope I'm getting there. It's still hard. Like I said, it's still very hard, but I think I'm leveling up. So, I mean, how long does it.

[B]

Take you to write a book?

[A]

How long does it take? Yeah, it's sort of a complicated question because I write, I pitch the idea, and then I write the first draft in, like, a panic with no idea where I'm going. And then I technically do write the end, but at that point. Point it's like, barely holding itself together because I figured out so much about the first half that I need to now go back and do while writing the second half. But to actually answer your question, it's about four to. Depending on my. My schedule. Four to six months to write a first draft. Okay. Done a lot of heavy revising before anyone gets to see it, even, you know, my agent or anyone very Cool.

[B]

Very cool. Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I've, I've. I've enjoyed every second of it. You're amazing. And I. I got the PDF today. I can't wait to. To dive into it and, you know, finish reading it and all that good stuff, and I will give you a review. I promise. I'll give you a good one, though.

[A]

I mean, I want you to mean it. So don't give me a good review.

[B]

I don't say anything. I don't mean. If you don't get one, it means, like, okay, like, oh, I guess he hated it. I'll never. I'll never give. I'll never give bad reviews. But, no, I'm sure I'll really, really enjoy it. I love your personality. I love what you put into your craft and your writing out there for your reader. One final question as we, you know, land the plane here. This show is called A Determined Society. And when I created it, it was out of frustration in my own life and in other people. And I said, you know what? I just want to wake up in a society where everybody's determined to chase their dreams, no matter how they felt about it emotionally, in that very moment, you still needed to move forward. So in your words, what defines determination for you?

[A]

Yeah, so for me, determination means finding the right balance between moving forward, keeping an eye on the future, and then also being kind to yourself and appreciating the current moment. Because I think it can be dangerous to say, you know, you always need to be charging forward. Ignore those negative feelings. Like, you know, if you're going to be determined, if you're going to be ambitious and successful, you need to just push all that to the side. And I think to actually, you know, achieve success in whatever form that might take, you have to also consider those negative feelings as feedback. Consider when your body is asking you to rest and to take a break instead of just charging forward. You know, we're not machines. We're not just here for our output. We're all valuable inherently just by virtue of existing. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think determination is sort of honoring that. That worthiness that we all have, seeing it in yourself and in others, and then keeping your vision on this idea of, you know, being the best you that you can be and figuring out what you're good at and, and figuring out how that can, to your point, how that can serve others, how you can reach that in a way that's going to actually actively make the world a better place and make things better for everyone around You.

[B]

I love that answer. No, I love it. I love it. Because, you know, what you were talking about is, you know, determination versus hustle culture. So back in the beginning, I thought determination was hustle culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just go anyway. Who gives a. No one cares. No, no, no. Like, there. There's moments like determination isn't this gritty, sexy thing all the time. It's like getting up, wanting to lay back down because you're exhausted or you're depressed. In that moment, it's like, what if I just had a nice breakfast? What if I just went for a walk? What if I wrote three words? What if I recorded three minutes? And what I'm trying to get through to people is, like, maybe just a little bit. It does. Your 100% is going to change every day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can go slower, but you can't quit. And that, to me, defines determination. But, yeah, my definition of it way before was completely skewed and ridiculous and dumb and unsustainable. Right. But I take my time now. I take my time that I need. I think it's important.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I love what you said about just. Can I just start with some breakfast? It's like, can I be kind to myself? Because that's going to fill me up so that I can be kind of to everyone else. To everyone and everything. Right. Like.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Keeping. Keeping your eye on that kindness and on that is sort of a guiding principle, and that's going to fuel you in a way that, you know, hustle culture, external validation never could.

[B]

One's fueled out of, I think, comparison, and one's fueled out of love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's going to go further? I'm going to choose the latter. Right. I'm going to choose the latter. So. Well, thank you so much, Andrea. I really appreciated you. We'll go ahead and we'll drop your website in the show notes. Everybody that's listening, go out and buy the book. Buy all of her books. Go check them out. Andrew. Bart's the last ferry out, most recently in summer of 2025. From what I'm hearing from her and what I've read so far, you're really going to dig it. Go check it out. Thank you again, my friend. I really appreciate you.

[A]

Thank you so much, John. This is really fun. I'm glad to connect.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we'll stay connected. But for the audience, you have one task now. Until next time, stay determined.