← Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset
Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset
Kanye, Control, & Celebrity Abuse: A Lawyer’s Unfiltered Take
00:57:18
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- [00:01]
Shawn French
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- [00:23]
Kanye. The super bowl thing was an absolute shit show. What the fuck's this guy's deal? Wife wears a naked dress.
- [00:29]
Michelle O'Neal
Oh, my God.
- [00:29]
Shawn French
There's talks of a separation now.
- [00:31]
Michelle O'Neal
And here she comes in her beautiful coat. And then all of a sudden he like, whispers something at her and she drops the coat like a robot. Some media reported, you know, that he said that he has, this is the quote, complete dominion over his wife. Dominion. The next day or two, it was like she's going to consult a divorce lawyer. And then a few days later, it's like, we're going to try to reconcile. And so you know me, I'm like, are we trying to reconcile or is he silencing her again? As a lawyer who represents, I'm going like, who do we need to call to help you leave.
- [01:11]
Luck
Sharp this one. Luck. I let the pain inspire me. I put my all in. Everything I'm doing up until it's done, I'm me for the entirety. I put in overtime. I be working. Just know I'm a go for mine. Cause I earned it. They watch and I know it's time I confirmed it. A whole society. Determined.
- [01:32]
Michelle O'Neal
Determined.
- [01:35]
Shawn French
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Determined Society. I'm your host, Shawn French. I have an amazing guest today. But first, please hit the button to follow the show on Spotify, Apple podcast and YouTube. I have an amazing Texas attorney today. One of the top attorneys in the state of Texas. She's amazing. She's dynamic. She has a hell of a resume and we're so blessed to have her today. Michelle O'Neal, welcome to the show.
- [02:02]
Michelle O'Neal
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm. I'm excited to be here today.
- [02:06]
Shawn French
I'm super excited. You know, we had a lot, you know, good conversation over the weekend before. You know, we recorded and we had a fun kind of off the air conversation prior. So we're. The juices are flowing here. We got the creative juices going right now.
- [02:20]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, I'm ready to talk. What are we going to talk about? Let's do this.
- [02:22]
Shawn French
Let's do this, dude. Well, first let's talk to the. Tell the Audience a little bit that may not know you are, give them a little rundown of your background, you know, where you're from, what you're doing and all that kind of good stuff.
- [02:34]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, so I have been a lawyer for 30 plus years. We won't go into the plus part. And mostly did, mostly I've done family law. But within family law, I tell everybody the thing I love about doing family law are for those who are more refined, domestic relations law, you know, for those of us from the streets or from the country where I'm from, we call it just family law. You know, what I love about doing family law is that we actually touch on every single practice area there is in law. Like you can't name a practice area that I probably haven't touched in 30 years. I've done criminal law within family law, you know, which that's kind of obvious, but I've done a shareholder derivative rights lawsuit within a divorce. You know, I tried a marital rape tort claim to a jury trial within a divorce. Like so it's. And most people don't understand that family law kind of has this all encompassing thing that anything that touches a family can happen inside of a divorce case. And maybe that's a whole nother episode. We can talk about that. But that's what I love about family law. And so it makes my experiences really diverse. And so I know a couple of the topics we're going to talk about today. You might think, what does that have to do with family law? But they actually do touch family law because, you know, they have these intertwinings into the family or children or contract rights that can, you know, come into the family law aspect. And they're actually things that I have dealt with in my practice. And you know, so I tell everybody that I learned everything about business and running a business, which I own my own business. We have four offices, Dallas, Frisco, Texas, Houston, Texas and Fort Worth, Texas. And so we can handle family law matters all over the state of Texas. Only in the state of Texas though, because we're not licensed anywhere else. But I learned everything about life from my mama. I learned everything about business from my daddy.
- [04:43]
Shawn French
So there you go, some good influences in your life. I'm actually going to be, I'm gonna be in Houston the end of this month.
- [04:50]
Michelle O'Neal
Awesome. Well, that's a long way from me. I wish I'd known that we might could make a plan. Maybe you should hop on up to Dallas and I'll buy you, buy you a drink or a steak. You know, Dallas, I would love that.
- [05:02]
Shawn French
I would love that. It's for a wedding, though, so I can't bolt, you know, Gotta be there.
- [05:08]
Michelle O'Neal
Well, I mean, you could add on a day and just drop down to Dallas. We're steak and a drink.
- [05:13]
Shawn French
Done.
- [05:13]
Michelle O'Neal
Dinner and a drink.
- [05:14]
Shawn French
Absolutely. We could talk about that. For sure, for sure. But no, family law is crazy. There's a lot of different things that can go on in family law. Right. And, you know, I. I think the big thing that, you know, always ties in if there's kids involved, you know, property assets. But, dude, there's some interesting things going on right now in the news media that.
- [05:32]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, dude.
- [05:34]
Shawn French
Well, I mean, I'm. I'm, you know, I'm from Cali, you know, I. I'll do up, dude.
- [05:38]
Michelle O'Neal
I'll be a dude. Better than being a hunter.
- [05:42]
Shawn French
No, that. That could be bad. That could be bad.
- [05:44]
Michelle O'Neal
Hun's bad, not good. I'll answer to whatever.
- [05:47]
Shawn French
Okay, awesome. So Kanye, I mean, there's been a lot of stuff going on with him, right? The super bowl thing was an absolute show.
- [05:56]
Michelle O'Neal
Oh, my God.
- [05:57]
Shawn French
What the. This guy's deal?
- [05:59]
Michelle O'Neal
I. Has he lost? I. You know, I think whenever people are celebrities and they're so used to getting all of that attention, and then, like, as. As what happens. Like, this is what happens when you're in the limelight and you're the current flavor of the month, eventually that shit slides, right? And so then the. The attention of the media, the attention of the public, the lemmings, like, they go on to something else. Squirrel, bright light. Like we're going to look at somebody else, somebody younger, cuter, smarter, sweeter, better looking. And then you start to slide, and you don't quite know what to do with that. And so you start, you know, kind of pulling these stunts to try to get the limelight back on you. And I think for some of them, they start kind of losing their. Their marbles a little bit. And maybe that's what's happened to Kanye. I don't know, but I feel like that's happened like five.
- [06:53]
Shawn French
I feel like this happened to him five times. Yeah, it's constant. It was Taylor Swift, right? I mean, that was a long time ago. Now we have this. So the most recent one is what? Wife wears a naked dress. And then there's talks of a separation now.
- [07:10]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, I mean, she wore. She wore the naked dress. You know, in Texas, we said naked, not naked like y'all in California. Neck dress. Yeah. I mean, I was watching that on the Red carpet. And here she comes in her. In her beautiful coat. And then all of a sudden, he, like, whispers something at her, and she drops the coat like a robot. And I mean, and I'm a divorce lawyer, right? I'm pretty jaded and cynical. And he whispers, and then she drops the coat, and it's like, what? What? Whoa, whoa. Like, like, I'm sorry you or I dress like that out in public. We getting arrested. Like, Like. And I mean, first of all, nobody wants to see all that from me. I don't know about you. Maybe you got some washboard abs or something really fun to see, but I.
- [07:57]
Shawn French
Who told you about the washboard abs?
- [08:01]
Michelle O'Neal
But. But, like, I mean, she was very lovely. I mean, her body was lovely and. And worth seeing. But I mean, you or I or anybody else in the world goes out there and drops their coat and has on a neck address that looks like pantyhose. I mean, or do people even know what pantyhose are anymore? Not anymore.
- [08:22]
Shawn French
I don't think so. I know what you're talking about.
- [08:24]
Michelle O'Neal
Got on a pantyhose dress, right?
- [08:26]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [08:26]
Michelle O'Neal
And. And anybody else is getting arrested. I mean, I mean, down to, like, showing you. Hoo. Ha. So, I mean, I mean, they showed her who now on tv, it blurted out, but I mean, we're showing. Wow. So, you know, I mean, we're getting arrested for that. And so as a divorce lawyer, I'm sitting there going, like, wait a minute, there is something really wrong in this situation. And so the next day he came out and on. On some media reported, you know, that he said that he has complete. This is the quote, complete dominion over his wife, family lawyer. I'm like, dominion. That's a word. That's a word. And then, you know, the next day or two, it was like, she's going to consult a divorce lawyer. And then a few days later, it's like, oh, we're getting back together. And, you know, we're gonna. We're gonna try to reconcile. And so you know me, I'm like, are we trying to reconcile or is he silencing her again? Because the reports of her being silenced and not being allowed to speak in his presence, like, those reports are widely reported in the media. And so I'm sitting here going, like, as a woman, as a. As a lawyer who represents women, I'm going like, do we need to call somebody, honey? Do I. Do we need to call the police to come help you leave? Like, do we need to call your daddy to come beat his ass and Help you get out of there. Like the call to help you leave. Because what I'm seeing is psychological abuse. I mean, I'm not accusing him of it. I don't know anything. I haven't been there. But it's just these signs are just. I mean, I'm just so concerned about her.
- [10:16]
Shawn French
What it sounds like, from what you're saying, you know, obviously the quote of, I have complete dominion over my wife. That's an abusive statement, right?
- [10:23]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah.
- [10:23]
Shawn French
You feel you own her. Right. Is that. Is that what that really means? And then also the whispering in the ear, do this now, do this now. Right. Is kind of how I'm interpreting it. And, and to me, it's just like, what do you think is really going on when you say silencing her? Like, I don't understand this. Right. There's another topic we'll get to in a little bit that, that has been, you know, talk. Widely talked about by silencing. Right. It's like, I guess I just don't understand that world. Right. It's like, what does that actually mean? And how can it actually happen?
- [10:59]
Michelle O'Neal
I don't know. I mean, nobody's ever been really successful at silencing me.
- [11:04]
Shawn French
There you go.
- [11:04]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, in a lot of instances, people might. Would have wanted to silence me, but. But nobody's been very successful at it. So I have, I have zero understanding of that concept. But, but it is definitely, you know, when. When you look at the signs and symptoms of the emotional control or emotional abuse or psychological abuse, I mean, that's definitely one of them. And when you look at the reports in the media that have been reported, reported about their relationship, where people are reporting that she's not allowed to speak in his presence and she's not allowed to speak out in public, and she's never, as far as I've been able to find, never done a media interview, and certainly not since all this has broken. She's never, you know, spoken to anybody about what's happened in the last week or two. And, and if she were acting under her own free will, like, why doesn't she go talk to, you know, to somebody in. On one of the news channels and give a little interview and say, I'm fine, I'm good. I wanted to do it. I wanted a publicity stunt of my entire lovely body because I like the way I look, and I want women to see my body confidence or some. I mean, but she's not doing that. And, and, and when you add to that Kim Kardashian actually spoke out the other day, there's a media report of that where she talked about some of the control of her. And so not now. Nobody ever accused Kim Kardashian of being silenced either. But there were some similarities in what she said to what's kind of happening now. That it's just very concerning. At a minimum. It's odd.
- [12:45]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [12:46]
Michelle O'Neal
And weird. And. And at a maximum, I mean, it's very concerning now.
- [12:54]
Shawn French
So when you were talking about Kim Kardashian, were you hinting around the fact that there was moments where Kim was also controlled or potentially controlled by Kanye West?
- [13:03]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, I think she's kind of said that. And then there's been some discussion, even after the divorce, where he has attempted to exercise some coercive control of her over their co parenting and hiring private investigators and, you know, following her around and stuff like that. Now, I don't know that he's been that successful. Successful with her because certainly between her wealth and her security team and, you know, she has ability to get out from under any control that he would attempt to exercise. And her family unit, you know, she has some different abilities. You know, where this, this other gal, Bianca, she. She doesn't seem to have that same support system.
- [13:50]
Shawn French
Right.
- [13:50]
Michelle O'Neal
That Kim Kardashian has. And I think, you know, when, generally when there are people and we can be sexist about it, but it's not always men. But when men are in this position where they're controlling of women like this, they tend to prey on women who don't have that support system, who don't have a daddy or a brother who are going to go beat their ass if they treat, you know, this woman wrongly and who don't have, you know, the wealth or the means to get out from under it. And so I. I don't know these people. I don't know what's going on. I sure wish that we did know a little bit more about what's going on behind the scenes, because it's, you know, it's. It's very strange and very concerning, and I sure wish I could get her in with a lawyer. You know, I know a few in LA that are really, really good. So I'd love to get her in with one to see what actually is going on.
- [14:48]
Shawn French
So there's a massive difference between Bianca and Kim Kardashian. Right, to your point. Right. You know, just from like a familiar, like a family standpoint, Kim's unit, everybody's together. I'm not saying beyond, because this is not. I don't Know about her family. Just the Kardashians are public eye, Right. You see everybody involved. Right. But the big thing is, I think, financially, right, Kim. Kim has you money. Like, you can't control her. Right? The family has you money. Correct. Like, it. You're not gonna. You're not gonna get the same result. She's gonna be like, yeah, okay, dude, try it. Like, go ahead. I think more people like me than they like you, dude. Right. Yeah. But for this girl, it's concerning, right? Because, well, she may not have that financial stability like a Kardashian has.
- [15:36]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah. I think the media has reported, you know, that. That it appears that she doesn't, because when they first started reporting the possibility of divorce, they were talking about the fact that it appears that they don't have a premarital agreement. And California is a community property state, which the media reported. I don't necessarily agree with their conclusion, but the media reported that under some scenario, because he is apparently greatly in debt and has very little in assets left. I don't know this, but this is what this report said, that he had a lot of debt and that if they got divorced under the community property scheme without a premarital agreement, that she could get sacked with a. With a bunch of his debt instead of getting any assets. Now, I don't necessarily agree with that because I think there'd be a lot of factors, like was the debt incurred, you know, before the marriage or because he was a schmuck or because of some wrongdoing? And. And is it. There's a fairness element to that that a judge would look at in California. So, I mean, I'm not a California lawyer, but I know enough to know that there would be a fairness element and the judge would have discretion not to sack her with all the debt also. So I don't think. I don't think that's a realistic assessment of what would happen to her in that scenario. But certainly the report to me says that she doesn't have her own source of. Of funding to get her out of it.
- [17:06]
Shawn French
Dude. So what do you think? Like, what do you think's going on? Right. Because we have. We have reports stating that they are. They are not moving forward. They are rumors. We're staying together. We're looking to work it out. Like. Yes. Like, what does that look like, though? I mean, you. You're a family law attorney. You've seen this many times play out, right? Like, where does this go from here? Like, where do you think it goes?
- [17:31]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, you know, I'm as much of a media conspiracy theorist as anybody. So it could just be that the media found something salacious to report about because she wore this neck address. That was a bad attempt at getting, you know, some media attention where there wasn't any. And so it could be that it was a stunt and everybody's happy at home and the media is blowing some things out of proportion. Or, or it could be that, you know, that there's really something to be concerned about and that, you know, that Kanye is. Is exercising his dominion. And, you know, when women are under this control, this trauma bond, or this manipulation, you know, maybe he has manipulated her back into the fold and through money or. Or some sort of psychological control, and she's now kind of brought back in the fold and is. Is either through physical manipulation or, you know, or monetary manipulation, she's just not able to get out and go see the lawyer she wanted to go see. So, I don't know. I mean, I. I hope that if that's the case, that she's got somebody somewhere that cares enough about her to help her, you know, go get her nails done and then get to a women's shelter or something and get out. But, you know, but if. If, you know, if everything's fine and she's happy and. And everything's happy there, then, you know, then go be happy and. And the media needs to leave them alone. But I don't think anybody knows the truth except those on the inside of that situation. And I guess at the end of the day, we can just send her good, good vibes or prayers or whatever works for you and, and hope that she's okay.
- [19:24]
Shawn French
Great points. Right. We don't know. Like, we. We don't live there. It's not for us to judge. We can only assume and kind of put the storyline together and it's, you know, it's entertainment. Right. As well. But how. Here's my thought. What if it was just a stunt?
- [19:39]
Michelle O'Neal
What if.
- [19:40]
Shawn French
Yeah, what if it was staged?
- [19:42]
Michelle O'Neal
That's what they reported yesterday. I mean, Kanye came out with a statement, or his publicist did, that said that there was some sexual, something, lawsuit against him by somebody, and they did it as a stunt to, like, take away attention from that lawsuit.
- [20:00]
Shawn French
I'll never understand it.
- [20:02]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, maybe.
- [20:03]
Shawn French
Would it bring more light to it, like, here he goes again.
- [20:08]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, look, I mean, I think it bad. It's a bad stunt.
- [20:11]
Shawn French
It ain't a good one, but neither was a Super bowl link.
- [20:15]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:16]
Shawn French
You know, one T shirt.
- [20:17]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah.
- [20:18]
Shawn French
SW Stick on it. Like yeah, let's.
- [20:21]
Michelle O'Neal
Let's get real.
- [20:22]
Shawn French
That's, you know, also too shame on. I'm sorry. Shame on the. The tv, right? Shame on the Super Bowl. Like, how do you not proofread or look at what that link's going to pull up when you. When you put it on the tv?
- [20:36]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I think there's so many things that, you know, kind of go into this and, you know, I hope that, you know, I guess I kind of hope it was a stunt. I mean, like I said, we started this conversation with me saying that I. You know, I think that sometimes celebrities, when they start losing their celebrity status, start doing desperate things to get that limelight back on them, especially if they've lost their money. And I wonder if that's kind of where he's at. Like, he's trying to get some fame or. Or in. In infamy back and trying to find a way to get some sort of contract or, you know, something back to get. To earn some money. And I. I don't know. I mean, maybe that's what he's doing.
- [21:24]
Shawn French
I wonder how many streams of Kanye west on Spotify or Apple Music or any Pandora or any type of platform has taken place since the super bowl and since this has gone out.
- [21:37]
Michelle O'Neal
Oh, I imagine a lot.
- [21:39]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [21:39]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean.
- [21:40]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [21:40]
Michelle O'Neal
You know, I. I mean, I don't know. I. I think it's going to be interesting. I. You know, we were talking offline about the Diddy trial. I mean, there's also some.
- [21:49]
Shawn French
Here we go.
- [21:51]
Michelle O'Neal
Sorry. Parallels. You know, there's some allegations of parallels between Kanye and Diddy, too. And so I'm wondering if there's going to be some, you know, some parallels that come out in the Diddy trial with Kanye, too. I mean, maybe that'll be his next claim to fame. I. I don't know. I mean, I. I don't know.
- [22:11]
Shawn French
Okay, so let's. Let's spill the tea here. So two months before that trial. The Diddy trial?
- [22:15]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah. Two months. Two months. May 5th. May 5th. Something like.
- [22:19]
Shawn French
That's my grandma. Like my. My late grandma's birthday. Can they come up with a different date?
- [22:27]
Michelle O'Neal
I know, right? All right. I just hope they televise, like, at least some portions of it. I mean, I do hope they come up with a way to protect the victims, because certainly the victims don't deserve all the publicity that's going to surround this thing, you know, But I. I mean, the publicity is going to be what it's going to be, whether they televise it or not, but I, I, I mean I have to confess as a lawyer, just from the pure legal drama of it, you know, I don't know that there's been, you know, certainly the Johnny Depp trial was, was legal drama. You know, I go all the way Back to the O.J. trial. You know, I mean, I mean this is the trial of the modern era. So I'm looking forward to the Diddy trial. I'm ready for it start, I'm ready to watch the lawyering and, and see, see what goes on.
- [23:22]
Shawn French
I'm very, very interested in this, obviously, because it's, I mean you see the, you, you hear people talking, you know, and there was people in on social media for years warning everybody about this, right? How this was all going to all come out. And then, you know, then it did and then there's all of a sudden these videos of, of, of Diddy literally beating the, out of his girlfriend. Was it Sierra? Sierra? On, on film. On film. And it's just like, damn. And there's documentaries out already. Everything came so quickly with this, with, with P. Diddy and, and just everything, like all the platforms like Hulu and Max, like they have all these different, the, the fall of P. Diddy, like it's, it's a lot to take in.
- [24:08]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, I think that, and I think that may be the problem, like me being a lawyer, that maybe the problem with the trial is that there's just so much like, and they, what they. I read that the prosecutor expects the case to take, to their case to take two weeks and then the defense expects to take a week. Now, in the grand scheme of lawyering, that's actually not that long of a trial for as much stuff as we think they have. So how are they going to fit that all in? Like, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I, like I said, from just the pure legal drama of it, I'm, I can't wait for it to start and I hope they televise it.
- [24:53]
Shawn French
No, I agree. I mean, like, listen, you and I were talking, you know, before we hit record it, you know, going back all the way to the O.J. trial. I mean, I was, you were in law school. You know, I was, I was younger too. I remember, I remember the day I was going to a baseball game that I was playing at and it was this, Reports came out that O.J. allegedly killed his ex wife and you know, her friend. And I'm like, there's no way, like, like this is, this is wild. I remember I was going To Brentwood, California, to play a summer baseball game. And this. This thing exploded, and you couldn't help but be in front of the TV and watching it.
- [25:31]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah.
- [25:32]
Shawn French
Like, to see a popular, a public figure like that be reduced to the most simplest. You are just a normal human being.
- [25:41]
Michelle O'Neal
Right. You're going through this chase. I mean, I don't know if you remember the chase. And I remember it.
- [25:46]
Shawn French
I. I remember the chase.
- [25:47]
Michelle O'Neal
Bronco. And at the time, I was a country girl. I mean, here in Texas. And, you know, a Bronco was like my dream car. And, you know, there he is, like, driving in my dream car, like, chasing off and. Yeah.
- [26:02]
Shawn French
Never. You've never got a Bronco, did you?
- [26:05]
Michelle O'Neal
Well, I got one of the new ones, but then I didn't like it, so.
- [26:09]
Shawn French
Is it white?
- [26:10]
Michelle O'Neal
No, I got a red one. Yeah, you know, my red, my color.
- [26:13]
Shawn French
See, look at that. I love that. I love that for you. You got rid of it.
- [26:17]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, I didn't like it after I got.
- [26:20]
Shawn French
Was too big for me. It was too big coming from. So I know how someone like myself would view these trials. The P. Diddy thing. I'm looking. I mean, for me, I'm just gonna be honest. Like.
- [26:34]
Michelle O'Neal
Entertainment.
- [26:36]
Shawn French
Yeah. But then also like, yo, dude, if this is all true, I. I hope you pay for it. Like, I, I, you know, I don't want this. You know, if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. Thai bullshit. I mean, we talked about that too, you know, like, no, if you did all this, man, and you're guilty, you need to pay for it, man. Because there's all these people's lives that have been impacted over the years that have regular relationships with men that don't have regular relationships with people or even careers because they've been impacted by this trauma. And in all the while, how much of empowerment does that take away from a woman to deal with that or the men?
- [27:19]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, I mean, how about the.
- [27:22]
Shawn French
Video servicing of Justin Bieber in the club? Like, the insinuation of what he allegedly was made to do in a club as a.
- [27:33]
Michelle O'Neal
And, and as a child. As a minor. As a child.
- [27:39]
Shawn French
It's like, okay, so then it begs the question of, like, okay, so this guy really does have this much pool in that industry that he can say yes or no on an individual as an artist to whether they are going to blow up and have a great career or not.
- [27:56]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, yeah. You know, and so from the lawyer perspective, I mean, you know, what we hope from our justice system is that the justice system is designed for prosecutors to do their job and defense lawyers to do their job. I was a defense lawyer whenever I first started out my legal career. I represented people who were accused of crimes. And, and, and the goal of a defense lawyer as, as much as the general public thinks that it is so distasteful and difficult to represent people who are accused of, and maybe guilty of crimes, you know, the goal, the goal for a defense lawyer is that we really represent the constitution, you know, that the lawyer represents the idea that as a person accused of a crime under our constitution, you are entitled to a defense, and you are entitled to a lawyer to give you your best day in court, to oppose the wheels of justice just ramroding the crap over you. And, and so, you know, as, as a criminal defense lawyer, like, we, we genuinely. And I say that as we. I don't do it anymore, but I did it one time. You know, like, criminal defense lawyers approach it from the standpoint of we take the constitution very, very seriously. And I know prosecutors do too. I'm not diminishing that. I'm just saying that, you know, that's the perspective of a criminal defense lawyer. It is to, to present the defendant's defenses, you know, to make sure that their voice gets heard because the system is designed against them, even though it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. But our natural tendencies as humans is when you first hear an allegation and you go, ew. Like, you have a tendency to believe it, but we have standards of evidence and standards of proof. And so the defense lawyer's job is to make the prosecutor jump that high. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard that, that criminals are entitled to have the proof. And that means 99%. Okay? In family law, by, by comparison, we only have to prove preponderance of the evidence, which is 51% or 50.1%. So it's just that smidgen of proof but beyond a reasonable doubt is like, I'm almost at 100% sure that this happened, right? And so a criminal defense lawyer's job is to make the prosecutors jump this high, not this high, not this high, not this high, not this high, but this high. And, and if there's defenses that excuse this, that bring it down to this, like, defense of a third party or, you know, whatever, some defense that the law allows, the defense lawyer's job is to present the evidence of that. And that comes from our constitution. And without our constitution, we don't have a civil society so, you know, so you hope that the prosecutors do their job and the defense lawyer. I hope as a lawyer that everybody does a good job and tries a clean trial, and at the end of it, the jury holds everybody to doing their job and evaluates just what evidence is presented in the courtroom, not all the crap, the circus that's going on outside, and bases it on what happens in a clean trial in the courtroom based on the rules of evidence and the Constitution and the, you know, standards of proof, and that it happens very cleanly. Now, being. Being, you know, a little bit cynical, that's not always how it happens. Like we talked about the O.J. trial before we went on air, you know, the famous. The famous OJ Thing, you know, Johnny Cochran gets up there and in his closing argument has the glove and he says, you know, he's trying to put the glove on and it doesn't fit. And he says, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. And like I said to you before we went on air, sometimes it's not the evidence, sometimes it's not the best. Sometimes it's the best salesperson.
- [32:30]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [32:30]
Michelle O'Neal
And so that part of persuasion by lawyers is so important in a jury trial, because the way that we craft our message, it's not any different than being a car salesman or a salesman in any other standpoint. Like, salespeople get so much training in how to persuade the person they're selling to buy what they're selling. And lawyers are the same thing. We just sell a different product.
- [32:55]
Shawn French
You're selling the different product to a different subset, which is the jury. Right?
- [33:00]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah. And we train with trial lawyers in sales tactics, too.
- [33:05]
Shawn French
Okay, here's the thing, though. Here's the thing. Like, the reality is, like, all those things are obviously true. Right? Upholding the Constitution, that's your fiduciary responsibility. But you guys are also human. Right. And so it's like you, when I look at this, I admire you guys. I admire attorneys. Whether even in family law, there's going to be. There's going to come a day where a family law attorney is representing a male or female that they know is in the wrong, and they have to give them their best day in court. And it could. It could conflict with their moral or core beliefs. Right. Like, this person potentially could be bad. So I just admire you guys for being able to, I guess, filter that information and, and be like, okay, you know, the defense attorney for O.J. right. The defense attorney for P. Diddy. Right. And all those kinds of things, like, to Be able to flush that and do the job and trying to prove right or not prove innocence, but, you know, bring down the, you know, guilty by any stretch of the imagination. Right. Beyond a reasonable doubt. Like, to me, that is, that's intense.
- [34:18]
Michelle O'Neal
I mean, it is intense. And, and it is a, it is a tough job, but it is an important one. And everybody can criticize lawyers. I mean, you know, the general public criticizes lawyers about that part of our jobs until they need one.
- [34:33]
Shawn French
Exactly.
- [34:34]
Michelle O'Neal
And, you know, and, and so it is a very important part of our job. And, and as law, I mean, we each have to decide on any given case, are we, you know, are we capable of advocating for, or I call it sometimes gladiating. Sure. Advocating for that client's position in a way that, that we are comfortable with. And, you know, and really the way I look at it is that my personal belief system gets checked at the door. My personal belief system has nothing, or maybe I should say very little to do with the job that I do when I enter the courtroom. You know, the, the, there are, I do have boundaries. I do not represent or take cases that involve sex, abusive children. That's just not a topic that I want to handle on a day in, day out basis.
- [35:30]
Shawn French
Too much.
- [35:31]
Michelle O'Neal
Well, whether you did it or you didn't, whether I believe in you or I didn't, it's just not a topic that I want to spend my day in the middle of. And that was, that's been my policy for my entire career as representing criminal defendants, representing family law cases. Like, if that's an issue in the case, somebody else needs to handle it, because that's not my, that's not a case for me. But, you know, but mostly other issues, I, you know, within reason, you know, it's not up to me to decide. And the way that I look at it, representing a client, my job is to present their perspective. Not my perspective, my ego, my viewpoint, my personal moral standards. You know, whether I would get a divorce based on these facts or not, whether that would be my choice or not. That, that's not up to me. That's not my life. It's their life, and it's their story to tell. And I am a vehicle through which their story gets told. And the way that I look at it is that I go in and I am the vehicle that tells their story, and there's somebody that's telling a different story on the other side, and the judge is the one that makes the decision or a jury. And I basically, before this is maybe telling you a little more about me than we intended. But I go in before I go in a trial or whatever, and I pray to God and I say, help me do my job and advocate for my client to the best of my ability and present their side of things in the best light that I can and help the judge make the decision. The decision that you, God, would have made, not me.
- [37:17]
Shawn French
Love it.
- [37:17]
Michelle O'Neal
And so it's not in my hands, it's in God's hands. You know, it's in the judge's hands and God working through the judge. So that's my viewpoint.
- [37:26]
Shawn French
There's, there's so much to unpack there. Like in, in the thing that I can say, what I enjoyed mostly was just hearing the real time. Not the real time, but the real life process that you go through. Right. These attorneys go through when they're deciding to take a case. Right. Because you have certain topics, like you said, you know, any type of sexual abuse of a child, you won't take. But on the outside of those things, you do have the opportunity to entertain the facts as they are presented. And if it's something that you want to take on. Right. And I think that's what Joe Public doesn't understand that, that, that they don't understand the fact that, like, well, how could you represent so and so, like, how could you do that knowing they're guilty? Well, because right now, P. Diddy and anything Kanye does, they're going to be guilty in the public eye right away. They already are. Like, literally, the public has already decided the fate of P. Diddy. Yeah, like they, they're like, oh, yeah, like they, it's even a verb now. Don't Diddy me. Nice try, Diddy.
- [38:25]
Michelle O'Neal
And I mean, in the media is so much a part of that because they believe, you know, they are not believe they are swayed by the way that the shall we say, salesman of. Of the day, whatever media outlet they're listening to presents it. And it's not any different than political person of the day, political topic of the day, media circus of the day, whoever is in the cancel culture snare of the day. You know, it's the same problem. And it's the criticism of the media under the current standards, you know, and, and the media very much, very much talks about that, you know, that problem. The media sways the public opinion and the public isn't parsing those problems of how the media is presenting it.
- [39:23]
Shawn French
Yeah, it's, you know, listen, it's hard. The public should really understand the media's job. You Know, I don't think anybody at this point trusts mainstream media. Right. I think everybody has a hard time doing that. Right.
- [39:39]
Michelle O'Neal
I don't know.
- [39:39]
Shawn French
But it's their job to bring the sizzle.
- [39:42]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah. I mean, right now, I mean, it's not like. It's not like years ago when you had the 6 o'clock news with Walter Cronkite, who you basically trusted to give you a fair assessment of what happened today. You know, the media's job is not any different than any influencer who is paid to tell you about, you know, the shoes that they're wearing. They're fucking getting paid to tell you this.
- [40:08]
Shawn French
Come on.
- [40:09]
Michelle O'Neal
Like, yeah, that's the bottom line. The media is getting paid to get you to view their media station 247 and give them views. They get paid for that. That's how they make money. We don't have advertising anymore. And so, like, they're not any different than Joe Blow, influencer, you know, Joe anything else, like TikTok of the day, you know, getting a million views. I mean, right. The media these days is just paid hacks. And I mean, you have some that are more authentic and credible than others, thank goodness. But for the most part, like, how does the media. You've always got to trap the money, like another. Another life lesson. Always track the money. And in the media, like, it used to be that Walter Cronkite, you couldn't track the money because Walter Cronkite got his. I mean, most people don't even know who Walter Cronkite is. I know who he is, but, you know, like, he got paid his salary and he had ethics and he just reported the news. But now, like, you got to track the money and who's getting a bonus on their views and who's making influencer money based on their TikTok reels because they reported some salacious details.
- [41:31]
Shawn French
Well, the. The big. The big thing there, what we're talking about here is the emergence of social media, which is another one of your expertises, Right. It's like, what. Wait a second here. You know, before it was just the news and we were going for ratings, like. And that was it. Right. If.
- [41:44]
Michelle O'Neal
If people watched revenue, which was a whole different separate section and a whole different floor of NBC or CBS or whatever, you know, totally separate. We don't talk to each other.
- [41:55]
Shawn French
Yeah. Now it's views on TikTok social media. Right. It's brought another level of dramatizing drama to these stories, these storylines, because every station is going to tell their slant on the story.
- [42:12]
Michelle O'Neal
That's right. And use. And, and it's all about adjectives. Like let's go back to grammar school. It's all about adjectives. Like you use the salacious adjectives and what's the difference in this little adjective than that adjective? Like one might mean he's, he's a slimy piece of crap. And one might mean, oh, that's not that bad. I mean, based on adjectives. I mean it's terrible.
- [42:40]
Shawn French
It's so funny because like when I was talking about slants, I was thinking they're going to go off their slant. It's usually the most salacious one. And then you said the word right. I mean that's really what it is. Like it's, it's the hook. We live in the world of the hook right now. How can we hook the reader? How can we hook the viewer? How can we do that?
- [43:00]
Michelle O'Neal
That's right.
- [43:00]
Shawn French
Can we do that? We do it. We do it here. We have to know the audience.
- [43:07]
Michelle O'Neal
That all changed, you know, that all changed in my view in the crash of 08 when everything changed because the consumer's viewpoint of marketing changed. In the crash of 08, when you study marketing and you look back at it, that's really when there was this shift, a tectonic shift in consumers view of the authority figure of marketing of advertising commercials. Who do we rely on to tell us that a product is worthy versus do we rely on our neighbor next door? Do we rely on some Joe Blow just like us to tell us a product is worthy? And that shift that started to me around that, the crash of 08 is when that really shifted. And since then it's, you see that in, in, in the growth of the Internet in blogging, which is where it first started. And blogging turned to YouTube and then YouTube turned to this and then we turned to social media and then it's grown and grown and grown and that's, you know, when we started to go from you know, advertising and traditional television to YouTube and blogging, traditional typed blogging, you know, that's where it like kind of switched and everybody started getting their websites and that's like, that's when that switch started happening and it started going downhill. And now we don't have newspapers anymore. We don't have really. I mean we still have traditional tv, but does anybody really watch it? You know, and, and we don't have news. I mean we still have, I mean they still have the 6:00 news, but does anybody watch it? You know, and and you know, most people, I guess the stats are, I guess that everybody's watching Fox now, Fox News national, and nobody's watching CNN anymore or something. I don't know. Like, that's a big shift in the last years. But, you know, and now everybody's basically getting their news. You know, a couple of years ago, everybody got their news off of Facebook and YouTube and now it's basically tick tock.
- [45:13]
Shawn French
Yeah, yeah. So that in podcast, right? Because they're typically podcast clips. Right?
- [45:17]
Michelle O'Neal
Well, it depends on your demographic. Right. But podcasts 100%. And we saw that in the election. Not to get political, but we sure saw that in the election. And nobody, except a handful of people on one side, nobody understood that. You know, I mean, I mean that was a blind side to a whole lot of people that are blind to where people are getting their news from. And. Right. I mean, I mean that, that is, you got to understand, this is another thing I learned from my daddy about business. Like, you got to understand where your customer journey comes from. And in politics, your customer journey is voters. Right. And, and so you've got to understand your customer journey. And that was, I mean, for Trump, for example, talking to Barron and understanding this customer journey of where I can find some new voters, man, Brilliant. I think that will go down as where a few years before Obama going to the late night shows and kind of going on some social media, that was a shift in political maneuvering that helped Obama get elected. Like that rock star thing that Obama did that helped him get elected, the Baron Trump factor and podcast is going to go down. They are going to study that in political science for years. Yeah, genius.
- [46:46]
Shawn French
I mean, he went on Rogan too. I mean, I mean, that's like, you know what I think. And not to get political like you said, but like Harris, she, she went on Shannon Sharp show and declined to go on Rogan.
- [46:59]
Michelle O'Neal
I, you know, I think two things. I'm, I'm a, I am a. I try. I, I look at politics again, setting aside my personal views. Like, I look at politics like a tennis match. Like, I enjoy the, the match of it. Right. And so, you know, so for me, I think, I think Harris missed the mark on two things. Number one, I think that she completely missed the mark on where her customer journey was coming from and she was hyper focused on one particular demographic of her person of her customer journey and not on the broad brush of what she needed to fully get elected.
- [47:37]
Shawn French
Agreed.
- [47:38]
Michelle O'Neal
And number two, I think she missed the mark on what she needed to exhibit as a Woman in leadership.
- [47:46]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [47:47]
Michelle O'Neal
And that may be a whole topic we could discuss another day. But I think, you know, she really didn't exhibit what I would want to see as a female leader in power. You know, her word choices, to me, like, her.
- [48:03]
Shawn French
Her full presentation presence just to me was just not. It was lacking. I'm sorry. It was lacking, like the leader of the free world. Like, I. I'm sorry. I. And I didn't mean to cut you off, but everybody was saying, like, oh, you just don't. You're not ready for a woman president. Yeah, I am. One billion percent.
- [48:21]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, dude. Yeah.
- [48:23]
Shawn French
Like, come on.
- [48:24]
Michelle O'Neal
I think. I think our country is ready for a woman leader president. And I think that by and large, most of our country would tell you that women. And I'll even take it a step further. I think our country would even agree with the statement that we would trust a mom to lead our country more than we would trust anybody else. Moms lead their families. They manage to get their kids to school, they carry their families on their backs, and then they still go to work, and then they still do the dishes, and they still do the laundry, and they still do everything. And moms are where it's at. And I bet you that most of our country would think a moment that's also a leader could do all of it.
- [49:10]
Shawn French
I don't disagree.
- [49:11]
Michelle O'Neal
Right. Leader qualities. But the problem is we just haven't found one of those yet that can balance being authentic and real and smart and all the qualities that we want to see in that. We have Hillary Clinton, who was a little over on the smart and aggressive category, or assertive, you know, if you want to use the right word, smart and assertive category. And I love that she wore the pantsuits, you know, but. And then, you know, and then, you know, and then there's some other women leaders. I think Nikki Haley was great, and I love her, but I think she was maybe a little bit too soft in her presentation of, you know, how. How she was so smart and is so smart, and she was a little bit more moderate in kind of this juggling of all the issues of the world. But I don't think she really kind of was able to overcome this Trump factor versus the. The other issues of the. The liberal side of things and get her message out there. She had a problem getting her message across. And then, you know, Ms. Harris was just unable to overcome this far liberal wing of the messaging, and she missed the mark.
- [50:28]
Shawn French
Yeah.
- [50:28]
Michelle O'Neal
Where the country was at.
- [50:30]
Shawn French
I agree.
- [50:32]
Michelle O'Neal
I just don't Think we found the right woman yet?
- [50:34]
Shawn French
No, we haven't. And that's, that's why America spoke what they spoke. Right? It. And it's, and it's really sad and it's almost victim mentality to hear like we're just not ready for a woman president. That's not true.
- [50:45]
Michelle O'Neal
No, I think we are.
- [50:46]
Shawn French
True at all. I think America is ready and willing and wanting that.
- [50:51]
Michelle O'Neal
Wanting not to go back to our social media topic, but sure. I also think, like, who in the world is crazy enough to want to dive into politics? Like, I almost think that anybody who would make a good candidate, you know, is like, oh, hell, the. No, like, I would not subject my family to that. I would not subject myself to that. I mean, I mean, I mean, who wants to be in the middle of that, you know? I do want to be in the middle of that. I mean, no, they'd have a dope.
- [51:22]
Shawn French
Ass house for a little while, though.
- [51:24]
Michelle O'Neal
Well, I mean, I, you know, you can make a lot more money and have a dope ass house. Sure. No, no, I mean, who wants to be subject to a 24.7Media cycle and everybody misrepresenting your words and spinning the out of you and, you know, and, and what do they call it when they call up the police and say shit's going down at your house. What's the word for that? And then the police descend on you and nothing's happening. And anyway, whatever they did, they did it. Yeah. Swatting your house like they did it to Nikki Haley's parents a few times, like, yeah. I mean, who wants that? Who wants your family and friends to be. I mean, nobody wants that in the death threats. And who wants to be in the middle of politics? It's gotten to be so nasty.
- [52:09]
Shawn French
I don't even think. That doesn't even sound appealing to me whatsoever.
- [52:12]
Michelle O'Neal
No. And so anybody who would make a good president or who has the qualifications, like, I'm good, thanks.
- [52:19]
Shawn French
Yeah, no thanks.
- [52:20]
Michelle O'Neal
No, thanks.
- [52:21]
Shawn French
You keep the death threats. You keep all the, you know, I'm.
- [52:24]
Michelle O'Neal
Gonna live a normal life. I'm good.
- [52:28]
Shawn French
The impact on the family is just so tremendous, you know, it's just too much. But, well, look here, this was amazing. We talked some good stuff, man. We talked some really good stuff.
- [52:40]
Michelle O'Neal
We didn't even get to all of the topics we had on tap.
- [52:43]
Shawn French
We didn't, we didn't. You will have to have you back. But I wanted to be in person.
- [52:49]
Michelle O'Neal
Oh, ooh, ooh. When I'm in Florida or when I.
- [52:54]
Shawn French
Come to Texas, we'll figure something out.
- [52:56]
Michelle O'Neal
There you go.
- [52:57]
Shawn French
Hey, you know what we'll do? You know what we'll do? You know what we'll do? Get Valerie on it.
- [53:03]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah, no, Valerie can get on it. I've got a studio in Texas we can do when you're in Dallas or. I, I come to Miami pretty often. Where, where are you at?
- [53:11]
Shawn French
We're in, we're in Naples, but we'll, Miami is like down the road, so. Yeah, if you're in Miami, we'll, we'll get it worked out. That's easy.
- [53:18]
Michelle O'Neal
I come to Miami several times a year, so we can do that too. But I've got a studio right down the street in Dallas that we can hook up and, and hit record, so.
- [53:28]
Shawn French
I would love that. That'd be fun. That'd be a lot of fun. We'll do it again for sure. We'll do it again in person for certain. But, but no, thank you so much. You know, I had a. We've never talked about the certain topics. So my audience is like, what's going on? Because I, you know, I'm, I'm broadening my topics and in, in my range here. What we're talking about on the show and, you know, these types of things is what's in the news cycle. People are talking about it and wanting to know about it. So thank you for, for stretching me today because, like, for real, that, that's. It was different than anything we've ever done and it was fun.
- [54:05]
Michelle O'Neal
Hey, I'm all about it anytime.
- [54:08]
Shawn French
So where can my audience check you out? You do speaking engagements. Do you have, you're, you have two books like talk. I mean, let's, let's direct everybody.
- [54:19]
Michelle O'Neal
Yeah. So I have a book about social media ethics for lawyers. So most people wouldn't be very interested in that. And then I have the book Wisdom from mama that talks about the life lessons that I've learned from my mama. Both are available on Amazon. I am these the Michelle O'Neill on all social media platforms. So you can find me there. Michelle O'Neill.com is my website. And then if you need a lawyer in Texas for some family law, my law firm website is owyers.com. so don't email me at my personal websites about lawyer stuff because, you know, I'll just send you over to the lawyer law, the lawyer website. But if you want to follow me on. On, yeah, billiard a lot. But if you want to follow me on social media, it's the Michelle O'Neill on all the platforms I love it.
- [55:08]
Shawn French
Michelle, thank you so much. I look forward to continuing the relationship and the new friendship. And it won't be the last that we have conversations. I can tell you that. I. I dig it. You're amazing. And there's a lot we could do together. So now for the audience that had just listened or watched this show, I want you to share the episode with somebody that you know love and trust that needs to hear this or that is interested in some of the topics that we spoke about, or if you're in Texas and shamelessly, if you're going through something that you need some, you know, family law advice, don't, do not hesitate to look her up and, you know, schedule a consultation. So with that being said, guys, thank you so, so much for tuning in. Once again, your viewership and your loyalty is always appreciated. Until next time, stay determined.
- [56:01]
Luck
Sharp. French. What up? This one Luck. I let the pain inspire me. I put my all in. Everything I'm doing up until it's done, I mean, for the entirety, I put in overtime. I'll be working. Just know I'm a go for mine because I earned it. They watched and I know it's time I confirmed it. The whole society determined determination.