Kindness Is Power and Rejection Built Me - Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset

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[00:01]
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[00:30]
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[00:33]
Brad Meltzer
Right?
[00:33]
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[01:01]
Brad Meltzer
13 years old, my dad lost his job and we had nothing left. We moved down to Florida just for a free place to stay. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself and two grandparents in a one bedroom apartment. And everyone in the condominium because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted, saying you can't have that many people in such a small space. A stranger across the hallway from my grandmother sees what's happening to my family and she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm gonna move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple weeks so your family can get back on their feet. But as a K, I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake, Mercy is what she showed us today. Cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with. It's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy.
[01:54]
Sharp French
Sharp French. What up? This one Luck. I let the pain inspire me all and everything I'm doing up until it's done, I mean for the entirety. I put it in no time I'll be working. Just know I'mma go for mine cause I earned it. They watch and I know it's time I confirmed it. The whole society determined determine.
[02:18]
Shawn French
What'S up everybody? Welcome back to another episode. I am your host, Shawn French. And before I introduce today's amazing guest. Please go subscribe on YouTube, Spotify and Apple podcast and let everybody know what you loved about the show. Share it with somebody you know, love and trust that needs to hear this message of kindness, empathy, and overall badass. Or so today I have with me an American novelist, Brad Meltzer, who is, get this, 13 for 13 on the new York Times bestsellers list. Everything he touched turns into gold. Brad. What's up, buddy? Welcome to the show, brother.
[02:49]
Brad Meltzer
Good to see you.
[02:50]
Shawn French
So good to see you, man. I'm a big fan of your work. I've. Before even having the prospect of being able to interview you. I have. I have seen your name in your face, so I am familiar with your work. But getting to know you briefly, you're just. I think it's important to start off with this so the audience knows what they're getting into. You are a very kind human being.
[03:13]
Brad Meltzer
I appreciate that. You know, it's funny, my father, and this is. I love when podcasts immediately turn into free therapy. My dad was someone who used to, like, he just had a temper. You know, he was struck by lightning and his father was struck by lightning, which means, you know, my grandfather and my father were both struck by lightning. Do not hang out with me in a thunderstorm.
[03:37]
Shawn French
Yeah, I'm not going to. I wanted to, but now I don't.
[03:39]
Brad Meltzer
No, you do not. And. And the thing was, is my dad was like that bolt of lightning. Like, he would just get pissed at everything, and everything he saw, he faced with anger, so he'd throw over a pool table. You know, he. Everyone was a jerk. Everyone was terrible. If you came to my house growing up in Brooklyn, there was a hole in every door in our house where he would have. When he would get mad, he just punched the door. Bathroom doors, his bedroom door. The only place that didn't have a hole in it was my sister in my bedroom that we shared. And when we were growing up, he just was like, he knew that, you know, that's how stuff rolls, right? And his dad was a boxer in the military and used to beat my dad up. And the truth is, Sean, my dad should have kicked the crap out of me. That's how violence works in families, right? It gets passed down generation after generation. But my dad was like, I'm not doing that. And I think gave me, you know, even though he was stubborn and everything was a disaster all the time and anger was always coming, he did give me that. That ability to see, you don't have to relive what you've been given in your life. And. And that has been, for me, kindness has become right to the forefront. Because of that is like, instead of facing things with anger, just do the opposite of your dad on this one.
[04:59]
Shawn French
It's interesting, right, because as we grow up, we have certain things that happen to us in our lives, whether it's, you know, I grew up in, you know, a rather, I would say, explosive situation. You know, my dad wasn't punching holes in the wall, but, you know, I remember my parents fighting a lot in it. You know, there were screams and there were things like that. And typically, you know, as. As these kids grow up, as you grow up and as I grow up, we have the opportunity to determine how we, I guess, raise our children and how we are in the house. And the cycle, at some point has to stop, right? And. And so how hard was it for you to break that cycle because you created a completely different POV for your kids?
[05:40]
Brad Meltzer
You know, I appreciate the question. I feel like for anyone listening, it looks like, oh, and this guy turned out nice. How great. Like, it's not easy. What you guys get to see is that final product, right? And I get to tell you. And you'll say, oh, I'll tell you some stories. And you'll go, I like that guy. But it took years. It took decades of my life. I used to meet everything with anger, every frustration was I. Because that's what I learned. That's what I was taught. And my dad passed away. My mom passed away. And I'm thankful. I hope. I think what changed my dad's life, truthfully, is, you know, his dad used to beat him up. He wasn't taught how to love, but my parents always loved me. They weren't perfect. They'd screw things up, but boy always knew they loved me. I remember there was a. There were a group of bullies who came and started, you know, they were all picking on me. They were five years older than me in Brooklyn. And I went up, they put, like. Remember those itchy balls? Those things you. That, like, once you put in someone's hair, they won't come out okay? And. And they were like, come play with us. Come play with us. And then when I went there, they just jumped me. And. And I remember coming upstairs crying, and I was so upset. I couldn't have been, like 8 years old. And I remember my dad was like, where are they? And he ran downstairs, grabbed the main bully by his throat, lifted him into the air, his feet this far off the ground. And I remember looking up and him saying, if you touch my son again, I'm going to kill you. And I remember in that moment going, I don't know who I'm rooting for here. I really thought my father. I'm like, this is just turned really bad. And I tell you that because he had that terrible side. But, boy, if you messed with us, you got the whirlwind. And so that love. Even in his worst moments, we never doubted he loved us. And I think for me, if you don't have that, that's the hole that you never fill. But I always had that. And so when I was talking about it, when I was dealing with it, I could always at least fall back on that foundational thing. I knew for all the other faults, my parents love me.
[07:41]
Shawn French
Yeah, that's. That's an interesting story. I have a similar story. Not, you know, my mom or dad choking somebody, but I can remember, you know, because I grew up in California and I lived in this place called Kinwall Apartments. It wasn't in the best area. You know, I was young, we didn't have anything, didn't have any money. And at one point, I'm walking along, going to play with my friends in the apartment complex, right? And these guys upstairs were shooting bbs at me. And I don't know how old they were. They were probably mid-20s, early-30s, right? Or something like that, I'm not sure. But I went home and told my mom. I was like, hey, these guys in apartment, whatever number it was, they're shooting BB's at me. And my mom went up there, knocked on the door, they answered, and she goes, you shooting BB's at my son? They're like, oh, it's just a joke. And she lost her ever loving mind, Brad. Literally, they try to close the door on her. And that woman put her fist through an apartment front door.
[08:36]
Brad Meltzer
I believe that. I go, listen, I remember I was writing my dad's eulogy and. And I couldn't like my mom's eulogy. When I wrote it, it came to me, like, in a second. It was one of my favorite things I've ever written. I put it out on my social media every year on her death. But my dad's wasn't clicking. I couldn't see it. And because he's so. It was such a complicated relationship. It was like I, you know, I knew my dad loved me. I didn't know if he liked me. And that was always the pull, right? Because I was a serious guy and he just wanted. He was a bruiser. And I'm sitting there, and my buddy from junior high school and high school writes me a note, and he says, you know what I remember about you and your dad? And I'm like, I got nothing. And I'm sitting there stuck, trying to write my dad's eulogy. And he says, I remember when your son. When my son was little, about your son's age, actually, Sean, we went to was a Little League game they would go to. Everyone would go to Marlins Stadium here in Florida to go watch the Marlins play that one Little League day. And, you know, all the teams go. And there were. My. My son and all of his friends were in one row. And then there were older kids that were on, like, the Yankees. It literally was the Yankees. I'll never forget. It were, like, behind them, and they were, like, two years older, and they started bullying my son and his friends. And what these kids didn't know is I was in the row, a couple behind them, because all the coaches sat in the back. And I saw it, and my friend saw me, and he said, I'll never forget you ran over and grabbed that little kid that was bullying all these little boys and basically said, you do it again, you know, you're finished on this earth. And he said. And in that moment, he's like, I know who you are. I know you're a sweet guy. I know you put love in the universe. He says, but I saw the old Brooklyn Stewie Meltzer in you, and I was like, oh, that's it. That's what lightning does. It comes down and it strikes again, and it strikes again. And I was like, that's my. That's my thing for my dad is like, he was the lightning bolt that kept coming. But when it came to the violence and it came to. He just. Instead of showing us the violence that his father showed him, he showed me something different. And that's the only reason why the lightning didn't strike again with me.
[10:40]
Shawn French
Wow. So the protect. The protective aspect, right? It's like.
[10:44]
Brad Meltzer
Like, that's what he passed down. I am that. I am still like. I mean, again, the same way with your snif. Something happened with your son right now. You would put your. Like, your mother. You would put your fist through anyone's wall, car, or anything else.
[10:57]
Shawn French
You know, that's the thing. It's like. And my wife's the same way. They're one of our three children, right? We had two beautiful girls. And, you know, like, they're. They're at my middle daughters at this age, where she's starting to get picked on a little bit. She's eight. And there's some things that went down earlier. And I'm like. And I said to my. I said to my wife, I'm like, I need to find the dad.
[11:14]
Brad Meltzer
Oh, yeah.
[11:15]
Shawn French
I need to find the dad.
[11:17]
Brad Meltzer
Of course. I'm like, you do not. Oh, that's where Brooklyn comes. I mean, no doubt about it, because it's your kids, and that's your protective nature, you know? And I think in a weird way, right, Like, I firmly believe that if you put good into the world, the world becomes a better place. That is my core value of mine. It's a completely naive idea. That's an idea worth fighting for. I agree with it. I also believe that when you see injustice or you see someone getting picked on and the world's not making sense, you got to grab it by the throat and force it to make sense, right? Sometimes you just have to go. And that's also an idea worth fighting for. And to me, that's all life is. I've spent so long saying which side is right. I have characters that I've written that are my two main characters. Literally. One is that one. And the other. And which side is right. Of course they're both right. You do need to be a good person and put good into the world and show that kindness and empathy to people. And you do need to stand up for people when you. Especially when you see injustice, you gotta fight like you've never fought before.
[12:22]
Shawn French
I love that, man. And it's so funny, because nice guys like us, people think that there's not that other side to us, and they like to try to push around.
[12:30]
Brad Meltzer
Don't mistake kindness for weakness.
[12:32]
Shawn French
I. I hear you, man. You know, I. I tend to stay quiet in those situations because I'm afraid I'm gonna set what I'm gonna say. But, you know, the bottom line is, is, like, just because we're kind, just because we're real and authentic, doesn't mean we don't have that streak to us.
[12:47]
Brad Meltzer
And listen, and you have to be better than what angers you, right? I mean, I'll never try and do it. I mean, and my dad. Listen, my dad could turn that and then turn so lovingly. He would go into every Barnes and Noble, every bookstore in his neighborhood. He'd go in every day and he'd go, like, I'm here for Brad Meltzer's new book. He's my favorite author. And they're like, Mr. Meltzer, we know he's your son. We know. He's your son. We know. And so he was like this lovable, sweet guy, but again, you mess with his family and. Right. So proud. But if you mess with his family, just will immediately, you know, will turn on a dime like that.
[13:20]
Shawn French
Yeah, yeah. And. And you know, a lot of what you experience as a child, no matter what way you look at it, it molds you into the type of dad you are. Right. And the type of parent you are going to become. Spouse, writer, professional. Recently, about a year ago, you had the opportunity to speak at a commencement for University of Michigan, which is you're an alumnus of Michigan, but I want you to share with the audience what was really special about that day.
[13:48]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. No, I love you for this. So, yeah, I went to Michigan and always wanted to give the commencement address. In fact, at my commencement, when I was there, my sister was not there. And so I was fighting with my parents more than regular. And so I was just in a pretty bitter mood. And they had actually given students an opportunity to submit a speech to be the speaker. And I wrote a speech. I was like, I'm going to win this thing. I wrote this speech. I didn't even make it past the first round.
[14:16]
Shawn French
Wow.
[14:16]
Brad Meltzer
And I remember at 22 years old sitting there in that stadium and just being like so upset that day. And then 30 years later, I get the call from Michigan saying, will you be the graduation speaker? I go, 30 years later, I get to be the one on the stage instead of the 22 year old in the stands. And when I look at that, it's an amazing, can't even explain moment. Right. It defies all logic, but I mean, 70,000 people are staring at me, but I'm focused on one, one, which is my son, because my son was graduating Michigan that day. And so the 14th row there, and he's in the 14th row, I can see him. He texts me where he was. And I know 70,000 people are cheering and yelling, but I got my eye on this one young boy who I love. Like the sun is, you know, with the heat of the sun itself. And I got to finally put my. I was struggling with this speech and struggling with this speech, and my wife finally said to me, just give your boy the best advice you got. And I was like, that's it. I'm not writing for anyone else. I'm writing for one. And of course it became the, you know, when I was done with it, all these people wanted copies they wanted. They were like, can you send me the text of that speech, people were tracked down my sister's unlisted phone number and said, I saw your brother in a stadium, and I think he's your brother. Can you give me the text? That speech, I want to give it to my kids, my grandkids, my nieces, my nephews. I never in 27 years, Shawn, have had anyone ask me for the text of something I said. And I was like, what just happened? And the thing went viral, and people started passing all around, and it was just something I never anticipated. And what was it? It was for my boy. And you know that every good moment as a parent, the big moments you plan, you say, this is going to be the magical moment for your kids. That's always a dud. That never works out. The best moments with your kids always are the ones you don't plan anything for. They just show up. And that was it for me. I was like, I'm just doing this for my one kid. And of course, that's the speech that starts getting passed around the Internet.
[16:20]
Shawn French
Well, I loved it. I mean, it was. You were funny, you were kind, you're empathetic. But the thing that was special about that class, and as you mentioned, and for those that haven't seen the speech or read the book, Making Magic, it, that class was born around the time of 9 11, then their freshman year in college. They. That was when the epidemic started, right? The pandemic. Sorry, that turned into an epidemic. You know, like.
[16:47]
Brad Meltzer
My son. My son was born in October, the month after, weeks after 9 11, okay? In 2000, 1, pandemic hits, and he gets no prom, he gets no high school graduation. It's canceled. Covid canceled it. So. And then here we are at his graduation, and, you know, it was at the time of all the protesting and everything else, and they almost canceled it again. NYU had their graduation canceled. So this was a group of kids that never had a prom, never had a graduation since junior high school. And I'm the one in charge of it. And, you know, I'm sitting there speaking, but what worked out is every parent in that room, in the room in the stadium, was like, yeah, we all lost it. We all think that these things happen just to us, but it's one of those moments where you can come together. And what I talked about is there are things that are unexplainable, and then there are some things you can't explain at all. And that's what magic is to me. Magic is what you can't explain. And when you talk to magicians, they'll tell you that there are only four types of magic tricks. You put aside illusions and escapes. There's four types of tricks, right? One, you got to make something appear. Two, you got to make something disappear. Three, you take one thing, you switch it with something else. And the fourth is you got to take one thing and you turn it into something else. The hardest trick of all, which is transformation. And one by one, we can talk about each one. But I'll go with the third first, just because it's fun. So I talk about what you have to make appear and what you have to make disappear. But I get to this part, that's the third trick, which is you got to take two things and make them switch places with each other. And I said, here, let's talk about empathy, because that's what empathy is, right? It's switching places with someone else, putting yourself in their shoes. And I told this story, and I never get to tell this story, but I'll tell it to you. I'd never told it before in my whole life. Even my wife was like, I don't know if I've ever heard that story. But When I was 13 years old, my dad lost his job and we had nothing left. Nothing. In fact, we had so little they couldn't afford the money for a new apartment. We didn't have money for the down payment or even the security deposits. We had to live with my grandparents in Florida. We moved down to Florida just for a free place to stay. And it was six of us. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself and two grandparents in a one bedroom apartment sleeping on the floor. It was not a good situation. And everyone in the condominium, because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted, saying, you can't have that many people in such a small space. And this neighbor, a stranger across the hallway from my grandmother, sees what's happening to my family and she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm going to move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple weeks so your family can get back on their feet so they don't get evicted. And I remember always her name was Mercy. But as a kid, I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake, Mercy and empathy is what she showed us. And today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with. It's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing Kindness and showing empathy. And, Sean, when I said those words in the stadium, I thought people would, like, be like, oh, whatever, you know, I don't know how they were going to react. I never told the story before, and the place exploded. I remember going, what. What just happened there? Yeah, what happened? And my wife said, you tapped a vein you didn't know was there. And I realized in that moment that we are all, as a culture right now, starving for kindness. We're starving for empathy. And I think it's so vital. It's the reason why I wanted to come on your podcast is I saw your commitment to it is. And I realized the only way we can fight back is to encourage people to put that out there.
[20:37]
Shawn French
You know, I remember watching the commencement and, you know, there was a lot of funny points, you know, because you. You displayed humor and you were just. Your. Your speech was so eloquent and just different than a lot of other commencement speeches. It was almost like an interaction, right, instead of a lecture that most commencements are. And when it. When it came to the point where you wanna. You wanna shock the world, show kindness, the place went nuts.
[21:08]
Brad Meltzer
That was the end of that part. It says if you. It says, you know, one day someone is gonna hug you so tight that all your broken pieces will fit back together.
[21:17]
Shawn French
Yeah, man.
[21:17]
Brad Meltzer
And. And I. I heard that at a funeral, a friend of mine told me that line, and I said, I love that line. It just. I. I was, you know, move to tears when she said it. I said, you know, right now, you got. The world is starving for decency, for kindness, for empathy. If you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness. That's a completely naive idea, but also an idea worth fighting for. And I never saw a reaction. You know, I did, I think what were great jokes and great bits and whatever else, but that was the thing that brought the house down. And I loved in that moment, for me, you know, I firmly believe this, Sean. I'm not that special, right? I started writing, you know, even though I write thrillers and Real History in my books, I started writing kids books because I wanted to give my kids better heroes to look up to. And the one philosophy is, I'm not that special. And if I want that for my kids, and if I want to show people kindness and empathy, I'm not going to be alone. And sure enough, there's an entire massive group of people, your audience especially, that is committed to that as well. And when we realize that, then we're not alone in the universe. Anymore. Now we got something to be together about. And what it doesn't say in the speech is it's hard right now. Right? The world can be an upside down place. And sometimes when we get a lot of bad news, we shut down because it's just too much. Right? And that's why we swipe to a new channel or we swipe off our apps because we're just like, it's just too much. I can't hear all this bad news right now. But you can't shut down. You can't shut down. We need you right now. And here's the part that I didn't put in the speech, is that when you look at the studies of empathy, here's the crazy part about it, is that empathy is actually malleable. And if you want to have more empathy, all you have to do is want to have more empathy. So it's like what, your freshman year of college, that's when you make the most new friends. You want to know why? Because you're just open to making new friends. The moment you decide I'm open to it, they all come. And that's how empathy is. The moment you say, you know what? I'm going to show some empathy today. You will have more empathy, will show up. And that means, again, like we started, it's all in your control.
[23:27]
Shawn French
Yeah, it's. It's interesting because that, that is the exact message I got, right? And it's something that I try to live. I try to live by with on my, on my show and in my life in general. Right. Because what you see is what you get. I'm not one way here and then another way in my personal life. Do I have my flaws? Absolutely. My wife will tell you. Right. But it's one of those things, man, where what I've learned in building this platform is that multiple people from all walks of life who may have different beliefs want to be heard. And they want to not just be heard. They want people to understand their perspective. And that's what I've really tried to do with the platform is create a neutral place where they can go, not feel judged, can be heard, can give feedback and pretty much anybody's welcome.
[24:17]
Brad Meltzer
I wrote this line in my book that someone said to me once. It's one of my favorites. And it says the most intimate thing in life is being understood and understanding someone else. And I was like that. I was like that undid me. And that's what you're doing, right? You're giving people a place to feel Understood. No judgment, no politics, no BS involved. That. That's the thing, is we're so busy fighting each other these days, we forget how much we have in common. Right? That's what our apps do. Our apps are designed by. The algorithm is designed to make you mad. Why? Because the more mad you are, the more you stay on it. So it's designed to make you find enemies. And what you have to do is fight that urge and push that away and realize there's so much better you can offer out there if you just kind of open up a little bit more to the universe and realize you can't change anybody else. The only person you can change is yourself. That's it. That is all you got. And if we all say that, the whole world changes.
[25:19]
Shawn French
I was asked a question today, right? With everything going on, we're, you know, obviously this is not a political show, but, you know, everything going on in the world, the apps are designed to get us to fight, right? And then you just. Most recently, obviously, everybody's talking about the tariffs and all that stuff. I don't want to get into the details of it, but I was asked my POV and I said, here's what nobody wants to hear right now. No matter what you believe, where you sit on the aisle, whether you're left, right, middle, doesn't matter, confused, or wherever you sit, you are being impacted by the government's decisions no matter what. So you can play the blame game all you want, blame it on one side or the other. But the reality is, Brad, what we have to do right now as parents and humans in this society is stay in our lane, Focus on one thing, focus on our families, focus on our craft, focus on getting better and putting good into the world, and what happens, happens. That's all we can control.
[26:19]
Brad Meltzer
I firmly believe that most people, obviously, there are total douchebags out there, right? There just are. We know that there are. Of course we know that.
[26:28]
Shawn French
Oh, God.
[26:29]
Brad Meltzer
But the average person, okay, what we are trying to do is show our family love, give them a better life than sometimes that we had growing up. We all have hopes. We have dreams for them, right? And when you meet people, they don't want to fight, but the Internet is like someone said, and it's so right. The Internet is like the bathroom wall in a stall, right? It's like people just write the worst crap. And if you read the bathroom. What's written on the stall in the bathroom and thought that that was real, you're insane.
[26:57]
Shawn French
I know.
[26:58]
Brad Meltzer
So why do we give so Much power to some nonsense we read by some guy on the Internet. Like it'll be like listening to what's written on the stall. So ignore the stall. That's all it is. And I do hope you know, and I think telling the stories and reminding people of them is. That's where you get your power from. I mean, there was a. I'll tell you this story. When I was in high school and I was 13 years old, I used to work with a guy named Nick Wicket. And Nick Wicket, this was back in the, in the, in the late 80s. So everyone wore a gold charm and a little symbol on the end of it. And I wore a gold Superman symbol because I like Superman. And Nick used to wear on his gold charm. We would scoop ice cream together. He used to wear a. Like a whale dolphin tail, like the tail of a dolphin. Because his dream was to train one day the dolphins at Sea World.
[27:50]
Shawn French
Wow. Okay.
[27:51]
Brad Meltzer
And it was such a wild, weird out there dream. And if I had nothing, Nick had less than I did. Always. I had two parents. He was a single. He came from a single mom. If we had very little, he had less than that. And so Nick fought his whole life. And four years with Scoop and ice cream were getting yelled at by customers all the time. And when my first book comes out, Nick Wicked, I lost touch with him. It was pre Internet. I didn't know where he went. I just lost touch. But it was around time, my high school reunion. And they give us the addresses of everyone coming. So I sent invitations to everyone in my class saying, come to my book signing because who else is going to come? It's my first book and it's my third book. So I'm not far from you. I'm in Vero Beach, Florida. Nobody's there. It's my parents and my wife and nobody. There can't be 10 people there. And in walks Nick Wicket with a pint of Haagen Dazs ice cream. And I say to him, I said, man, what happened to you? Where are you? What are you doing? He says, guess. I said, I have no idea. Where do you live? He says, orlando. And I go, oh my gosh, you train the dolphins at SeaWorld, don't you? And he says, you have to come and see. So I, I get my butt up to Sea World and I. And I'm. You know, it gives us a little roped off section, makes us feel important. And all of a sudden the show starts and the. And the first trick is the dolphin comes out of the water and jumps, you know, 25ft in the air, and Nick Wicket is standing on the nose of the dolphin. He's not, like, throwing food to the dolphin. He's the star of the show. I start crying. I'm bawling, and I'm like. And to see that guy who came from nothing actually live his dream in front of my eyes. And he saw me after, he's like, why? The only person cried more than you is my mom. But to watch that, that's what gives me hope. In the universe, we spend so much time fighting, we lose sight of these amazing moments. And that's my core belief. I believe ordinary people change the world. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care how much money you make. That's nonsense to me. I believe in regular people and their ability to affect change in this world. And I've watched what Nick has done with Make a Wish kids and people you don't know and strangers and, you know, all these kids that come and. And, you know, just want to have that one day of. Of kindness before something happens. And that has more impact on the world to me than any stupid politician, than any nonsense out there. Whatever side you're on.
[30:16]
Shawn French
I agree with that. It's funny, real quick, before I. Because you touched on the gold chain and the. In the charm, so.
[30:22]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. What do you got?
[30:23]
Shawn French
Silver gold chain?
[30:24]
Brad Meltzer
Yep.
[30:25]
Shawn French
Two bats crossed and a baseball with a diamond in the middle of it.
[30:27]
Brad Meltzer
Beautiful. That's it.
[30:30]
Shawn French
My parents gave me this. This pendant when I was playing high school baseball. And my. My mom asked my son one time. She goes, honey, what would you like for Christmas? He goes, I want to change just like my daddy.
[30:44]
Brad Meltzer
Oh, that would undo me.
[30:47]
Shawn French
So. So here's where it gets crazy, right? So, you know, he got a white gold one, you know, so it's not identical to me, but it's a. Bats. You know, two bats crossing a ball in one day. I just hear this sobbing upstairs, and I'm like, what the hell just happened? I run upstairs. I'm thinking, like, he broke his leg or something. Or something happened. And he's in the bathroom, and the pendant completely snapped in half and went down the drain. The man. The young man was so hysterical because it meant something so much to him. And again, my. My mom ended up getting him another one, and it's all fine.
[31:26]
Brad Meltzer
Right, but, but, but, but you. But you hit on the point. That's what life's about. Yes. Right. That he wasn't. He wasn't mourning just the chain. It was he knew that that thing was you. And my dad and this person who loves me and looks out for me. You know, there's a sign in New York subway right now and it says, who will remember your name? It's a potent question, right? Who will remember your name when you're gone, who will remember you? And that's one of those moments, right? Your boy like you, what you're etching in his life is you make history every day. And that, that charm, he, I guarantee you when he's our age, in 30 years from now, he's going to still be wearing it, hiding behind his shirt and pull it out and say, here's my dad. Right? And obviously there's so much more, but here's my dad.
[32:13]
Shawn French
Yeah. And I just think that's the start of teaching young children like. And you mentioned, you know, ordinary people changing the world. Let's really focus on this for the audience right now. Audience, I really want you to think about this. The reason why you follow people and you love people and you, and you're influenced by them. Hopefully it's for the right reasons. And typically there's a lot of people out there doing good things in the world and we really need to tune into them. And they're just ordinary people. Like, hey man, we're ordinary people, me and you, right? You know, it's so funny because as my journey gets a little more intense and involved and become more known, people look at me different. Right? And they look at you different because, you know, hey, look, you're 13 time New York Times bestseller, but you're still Brad, you're still an ordinary person who is executing on their gifts. And, and by you doing that, you're living your real purpose in life and you're spreading love as a result. And, and that's where, that's where I really focus on things. And it just, to me, it's touching because if I look at everybody I look up to, all the people I look up to, it's not the normal people you would think. It's people that are. I can connect with when I'm having these conversations and know and feel where their heart's really at.
[33:31]
Brad Meltzer
I love you for that. Well, we did a study a couple years ago with a real actual, like a company that does this stuff nationwide. And one of the things we did is we asked people, who are your heroes? Who do you look up to? And I thought they were going to be like, you know, whatever famous people or, you know, famous athletes or a president, depending on your politics. Whatever it might be, they weren't even in the top 10. They barely were there. It was mom and dad and grandparents, even, whatever the age range, whatever you pick young kids, old kids, didn't matter. And I was like, I'm encouraged by that because it doesn't feel like that all the time. But I do think, you know, and again, even the people you don't like can be amazingly helpful to you if you change your point of view on it. At Haagen Daz, when I was scooping ice cream and I told the story, you know the story, but I was scooping ice cream one day, and this woman comes up and she starts snapping her fingers at me. And I'm like, ma' am, I'll be with you in a second. She says, no, no, no, help me now. And I'm like, you know what, ma' am, you're being rude. I'm not going to help you. And she's like, you better help me right now. I'm like, you know what, ma' am, I'm not. And she said, you know, you're going to be working. She screams in my face, you're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. And I calmly told her, ma' am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. And I used to, like, laugh and be like, oh, that woman never bothered me. But I'll tell you, Sean, it totally bothered me. It completely dug at me because my dad always struggled financially. And I was worried what that woman said to me, that I was going to have the same financial struggle. But I also, as I got older, that woman drove me, she fueled me. So we always say, like, when you say what you have to make disappear in the magic tricks, you know, people want to say, make your fear disappear. But I don't think that. I think, use your fear. Harness it. Don't vanquish your critics. Prove them wrong. And so whether it's a good person or a bad person, you decide what power they have over you or what they can do for you. And that, you know, when we were putting together Make Magic as a book is we wanted to give those magic tricks to people and say, you can do these every single day. And here's a little bit of inspiration you didn't know you needed, because, man, we all need it right now.
[35:44]
Shawn French
So it's so funny. Like when you. When you told that story, I kind of chuckled, right? Because we all have that person I remember, you know, growing up in seventh grade and, you know, my PE school teacher, Mr. Dorn, saying that you were the worst athlete. You'll never amount to anything.
[35:59]
Brad Meltzer
Oh.
[35:59]
Shawn French
And I'm like. I looked at him, I'm like. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you. You can't run the mile. You can't do this, you can't do that. I'm like, oh, that's all, you know, that's. That, That'll be fine. I go, we haven't got to the baseball portion of this unit yet. And then once I did, once we got there, you know, I showed everybody, you know, the athlete that I was. And, but, but the main thing is, is. Is having those people, those doubters. I mean, because, you know, there's been plenty of doubters on, on my current journey. I, I, at the beginning, there was a big chip on my shoulder, and I wanted to prove everybody wrong. Now I'm on this massive journey just to prove myself right. And, and, you know, in, you know, as a consequence, it's like kind of giving everybody else that, you know, that proverbial middle finger that said I wouldn't do it, that laughed at me and said, who is going to listen to your show? And I'm like, well, I guess now. I guess a lot of people.
[36:55]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. But for me, you know, listen, I got on my first book, I got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers. I got 24 rejection letters, right?
[37:04]
Shawn French
Double down.
[37:05]
Brad Meltzer
That. That means two people doubled down to make sure I got point. But I remember back then being like, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And the week after I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, Sean, I started my next book. But here's the part you don't know about that story is every day that I sit down to write. And here's the part, the 23rd and 24th rejection letter I thought were going to be acceptance letters. There were two publishers that actually said, we love this book. Can you come meet us? Because we want to make a bid on it. So I met two of those editors. I went to New York, I met with them, had big meetings, and I was in all this debt at that time. I had law school debt, I had college debt. I was just up to my years in debt. My agent said, we're going to get you out of debt. We're going to sell this book. There's going to be a bidding war on these, on number 23 and 24. Someone's going to buy it. You're going to get out of debt, Brad. I said, great. She told me to sit by my phone. She's going to call me with the number to tell me, because back then there were no cell phones. And I picked up the phone, expecting her to tell me, here's how you know, here's how much you want to get for your book when you're going to be out of debt. And I'll never forget. I picked up the phone, and I'll never forget the words. She said, sorry, kiddo, and my heart sank because it means 23 and 24 are both out, too. They didn't want it either. And every day, Sean, here's my secret that I sit down to write. I replay that moment. I re pick. I picture the phone that was in my hand. It was one of those clear, see through phones. You could see the wires because that seemed high tech.
[38:31]
Shawn French
Yeah, those were cool.
[38:32]
Brad Meltzer
They were cool. I picture the desk on my left with the swivel lamp every college kid has. On my right is a bed and a box spring. That's all I had. There was no headboard or anything fancy. I look over the balcony. There's an empty gross parking lot and a fire station with three doors. I count the doors in my head. One, two, three. And then I say those words to myself, sorry, kiddo. Because I never, ever want to think I made it. I never, ever want to think I got it all figured out. I never, ever want to be anything but thankful for this life I've been lucky enough to have. And for 27 years, every day I sit down to write, sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. That's my magic trick.
[39:12]
Shawn French
And see, and that's what I love, right? And for the audience as we land the plane on this episode is, you know, choose to get the lesson out of that. Like, you've wrote many, many books and they've all been successful, but that one moment was the pivotal moment in your life, in your career. You could have said, you know what? I just don't have it. I'm just not going to do it. And one major, I guess you would say, similarity to all successful people is that they have that moment where they are rejected for that last time. That kind of just breaks the ice. And it's like, you know what? I'm going to go hard. I'm going to continue to go hard, and one day this is going to be successful. And that's what you've done. And that specific moment and everything that you do every day, that is your process.
[40:00]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah, right. Listen, the Wright brothers. The Wright brothers, every time they went out to fly their plane would bring enough extra materials for multiple crashes.
[40:06]
Shawn French
Yeah.
[40:07]
Brad Meltzer
Which means every time they went out, they knew they would fail. They would crash and rebuild and crash and rebuild, and that's why they took off. But that's what people are saying. I love. That's what people love. That. That's what I'm saying. That's what you're saying. Of course. Same thing. Gosh.
[40:20]
Shawn French
Like, you know, it's like you don't get to the top without getting your teeth kicked in.
[40:25]
Brad Meltzer
Oh. Every history book we write, whether It's Rosa Parks, Dr. King, we did Abraham Lincoln. I showed you half the dozen elections he lost. George Washington lost elections. The new book is We Are the Beatles. And they talk about how they're terrible. They're a terrible band. And then they basically go to Germany and they play for the better part of a year, they play 1100 hours, just plain and plain.
[40:46]
Shawn French
They didn't care where, they didn't care.
[40:48]
Brad Meltzer
Where, they did not care where. They said they could smell the toilets as from where they were. 1100 hours. And they're like. And then we got good. And they were like. But what we all see is the end result. And we forget that. The best part, all the success, is the failure. That's not the bug. That's the feature. It has to happen. And when we come on, if we just build statues of heroes and we build this big granite statue and we worship at their feet, we do them a huge disservice. Because anyone we've talked about, Rosa Parks, The Wright brothers, Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, anyone you love and admire had moments where they were scared and they were terrified and they didn't know they could go on. But they do, baby. They just keep going.
[41:30]
Shawn French
That's it. It's like that. That. It's. It's the stubbornness. It's that discipline. That's the determination.
[41:37]
Brad Meltzer
I say, that's the right brothers. I'm like, I. I want my. My kids to hear that story. I want everyone to hear the story. If you dream big, you work hard, but you have a side order of stubbornness. You could do anything in this world. And I'll leave you with this is when I look back on the experience. I had 24 people who sent me rejection letters, 24 people who told me to give it up, said, you can't do this, Brad, you can't write this book. And I don't look back on the experience and say, well, I was right and they were wrong and haha on them. I look back and realize life is just subjective and all you gotta do is find one person. Sometimes it takes one yes and just one yes to change your whole life. And your job in life is to find that one yes. And I was lucky enough to find it because I just kept going at it. But just look for the yes. Don't hear the nos. Just look for that one yes. And that's how the whole thing changes.
[42:27]
Shawn French
The main thing is those 24 rejections are the 24 things that made you who you are.
[42:36]
Brad Meltzer
If my first book sold, I would either be insufferable or I think I did it all. Or did what? But I'm so thankful every day for those rejections. I'm so thankful for that woman at Haagen Dazs who told me I'd be working there for the rest of my miserable life. I'm so thankful for that whole condominium that said to me, you know what, Brad, we want to evict you. Get out of here. You got nothing. You know you're no good. Like that grounded me. It gave me humility, it gave me decency, it gave me empathy for other people. My God, man, I wouldn't trade that for anything. All of that was, was, you know, that was, that was all part of the action.
[43:11]
Shawn French
Now you're a superhero, man.
[43:13]
Brad Meltzer
I don't know about that. I'm just. Trina, we're like everyone just trying. You just, you just gotta love yourself for who you are. That's it. That's it.
[43:21]
Shawn French
I feel that. I feel that. Well, man, look, dude, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me. I know my audience is going to get a ton out of our conversation and I can't wait to read We Are the Beatles. I can't wait to read it to my children because, you know, for the parents out there, if you want great books for your children so they can read something to look up to people that are, that are worthy of looking up to. Check out Brad Meltzer series. Like, you're going to love it. I can't wait to read it. And like I said, read it to my girls. And I just did. It's just been a great pleasure having you on today. I just. Thank you so much.
[43:56]
Brad Meltzer
Thank you, brother. Appreciate the help with Make Magic from the start. You were so supportive of the speech and the book that we made of it and all that. I really appreciate it.
[44:03]
Shawn French
Well, I am positive this is not the end of our communications and our relationship, so I'm grateful for that. To the audience that listen to this episode or watch it, please send this episode to somebody that you know would get a ton out of it. Someone that's going through things that the world may seem unkind to them but they're struggling anyway. Let them listen to this episode so they have the courage to continue on. Until next time, stay determined.
[44:32]
Sharp French
Sharp French what up? This one luck I let the pain inspire me I put my all in Everything I'm doing up until it's done I'm me for the entirety I put in overtime I'll be working Just know I'mma go for mine cause I earned it they watch and I know it's time I confirmed it the whole society determined, determined.

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: "Kindness Is Power and Rejection Built Me"

Podcast Information:

Title: The Determined Society with Shawn French
Host: Shawn French
Guest: Brad Meltzer, American Novelist
Episode: Kindness Is Power and Rejection Built Me
Release Date: May 12, 2025

1. Introduction and Guest Overview

In this compelling episode of The Determined Society, host Shawn French welcomes renowned American novelist Brad Meltzer, celebrated for achieving a remarkable "13 for 13" streak on the New York Times Bestsellers List. French emphasizes Meltzer's ability to transform every project into a success, setting the stage for a deep and insightful conversation about personal development, resilience, and the transformative power of kindness.

2. Brad Meltzer's Early Life and Family Dynamics

Brad Meltzer opens up about his tumultuous upbringing in Brooklyn, highlighting the profound influence of his father’s volatile temperament. He shares a poignant memory from his childhood:

Brad Meltzer (04:10): "Cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy."

Meltzer recounts how his father's anger and the harsh environment at home could have perpetuated a cycle of violence, reminiscent of his own grandfather’s abusive behavior. However, his parents’ unwavering love provided him with a foundation of empathy and kindness, enabling him to break free from this destructive cycle.

3. The Power of Kindness and Empathy

A central theme of the episode is the profound impact of kindness and empathy. Meltzer narrates a transformative experience during his teenage years:

Brad Meltzer (04:30): "Mercy is what she showed us today. Cruelty and venom... what takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy."

He describes how a compassionate neighbor, whom he refers to as Mercy, offered his family temporary accommodation during a desperate time. This act of kindness became a cornerstone of Meltzer's philosophy, illustrating that true strength lies in empathy rather than aggression.

4. Overcoming Rejections and Building Success

Meltzer delves into his journey as an author, particularly focusing on resilience in the face of rejection. He shares the pivotal moment when he received his 23rd and 24th rejection letters, which initially felt devastating. Instead of succumbing to despair, Meltzer used these rejections as fuel to persevere:

Brad Meltzer (37:03): "Every day, Sean, here's my secret that I sit down to write. I replay that moment. I think about it... That's my magic trick."

Meltzer emphasizes that each rejection letter was not a setback but a stepping stone towards his eventual success, reinforcing the importance of persistence and determination.

5. Highlights from the Commencement Speech at University of Michigan

Meltzer recounts his heartfelt commencement speech at the University of Michigan, where he shared personal anecdotes to inspire graduates. The speech focused on the magic of kindness and the importance of empathy in building meaningful connections. One of the most impactful moments was when Meltzer shared his childhood struggle and the neighbor's act of kindness, resonating deeply with the audience:

Brad Meltzer (21:08): "Just because we're kind, just because we're real and authentic, doesn't mean we don't have that streak to us."

This approach not only captivated the audience but also underscored the central message that empathy and kindness are vital in overcoming adversity.

6. Impact on Parenting and Legacy

The conversation naturally transitions to the influence of Meltzer's values on his own parenting. Both Meltzer and French reflect on how their experiences have shaped their approach to raising their children, emphasizing the importance of instilling empathy and resilience:

Brad Meltzer (26:22): "I believe ordinary people change the world. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care how much money you make. That's nonsense to me."

Meltzer shares touching stories about his children, illustrating how the lessons of kindness and determination are being passed down to the next generation.

7. Concluding Insights on Determination and Empathy

As the episode draws to a close, Meltzer and French discuss the broader societal implications of embracing kindness and empathy. Meltzer stresses that in a world rife with negativity and division, choosing to focus on personal growth and compassionate actions can lead to substantial positive change:

Brad Meltzer (40:46): "I believe ordinary people change the world... We all have hopes. We have dreams for them, right? And when you meet people, they don't want to fight, but the Internet is like someone said, and it's so right."

Meltzer encapsulates his philosophy by encouraging listeners to harness their fears, use rejection as motivation, and prioritize empathy over aggression. He emphasizes that the collective effort of ordinary individuals can transform society into a more compassionate and understanding place.

Key Takeaways:

Kindness as Strength: True strength lies in showing empathy and kindness, not in cruelty or aggression.
Resilience Through Rejection: Persistence in the face of rejection is crucial for eventual success.
Impact of Personal Stories: Sharing personal experiences can inspire and connect deeply with others.
Empathy in Parenting: Instilling empathy and resilience in children is foundational for their personal development.
Societal Transformation: Collective acts of kindness and understanding can lead to meaningful societal change.

Notable Quotes:

Brad Meltzer (04:10): "Cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy."
Brad Meltzer (37:03): "Every day, Sean, here's my secret that I sit down to write. I replay that moment. I think about it... That's my magic trick."
Brad Meltzer (40:46): "I believe ordinary people change the world. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care how much money you make. That's nonsense to me."

This episode of The Determined Society offers a profound exploration of how kindness and resilience shape personal and professional success. Brad Meltzer's candid narratives serve as both inspiration and a guide for listeners striving to navigate their own challenges with empathy and determination.

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Transcript84 lines

[00:01]
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[00:30]
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[00:33]
Brad Meltzer
Right?
[00:33]
Degree Advertiser
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[01:01]
Brad Meltzer
13 years old, my dad lost his job and we had nothing left. We moved down to Florida just for a free place to stay. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself and two grandparents in a one bedroom apartment. And everyone in the condominium because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted, saying you can't have that many people in such a small space. A stranger across the hallway from my grandmother sees what's happening to my family and she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm gonna move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple weeks so your family can get back on their feet. But as a K, I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake, Mercy is what she showed us today. Cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with. It's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing kindness and showing empathy.
[01:54]
Sharp French
Sharp French. What up? This one Luck. I let the pain inspire me all and everything I'm doing up until it's done, I mean for the entirety. I put it in no time I'll be working. Just know I'mma go for mine cause I earned it. They watch and I know it's time I confirmed it. The whole society determined determine.
[02:18]
Shawn French
What'S up everybody? Welcome back to another episode. I am your host, Shawn French. And before I introduce today's amazing guest. Please go subscribe on YouTube, Spotify and Apple podcast and let everybody know what you loved about the show. Share it with somebody you know, love and trust that needs to hear this message of kindness, empathy, and overall badass. Or so today I have with me an American novelist, Brad Meltzer, who is, get this, 13 for 13 on the new York Times bestsellers list. Everything he touched turns into gold. Brad. What's up, buddy? Welcome to the show, brother.
[02:49]
Brad Meltzer
Good to see you.
[02:50]
Shawn French
So good to see you, man. I'm a big fan of your work. I've. Before even having the prospect of being able to interview you. I have. I have seen your name in your face, so I am familiar with your work. But getting to know you briefly, you're just. I think it's important to start off with this so the audience knows what they're getting into. You are a very kind human being.
[03:13]
Brad Meltzer
I appreciate that. You know, it's funny, my father, and this is. I love when podcasts immediately turn into free therapy. My dad was someone who used to, like, he just had a temper. You know, he was struck by lightning and his father was struck by lightning, which means, you know, my grandfather and my father were both struck by lightning. Do not hang out with me in a thunderstorm.
[03:37]
Shawn French
Yeah, I'm not going to. I wanted to, but now I don't.
[03:39]
Brad Meltzer
No, you do not. And. And the thing was, is my dad was like that bolt of lightning. Like, he would just get pissed at everything, and everything he saw, he faced with anger, so he'd throw over a pool table. You know, he. Everyone was a jerk. Everyone was terrible. If you came to my house growing up in Brooklyn, there was a hole in every door in our house where he would have. When he would get mad, he just punched the door. Bathroom doors, his bedroom door. The only place that didn't have a hole in it was my sister in my bedroom that we shared. And when we were growing up, he just was like, he knew that, you know, that's how stuff rolls, right? And his dad was a boxer in the military and used to beat my dad up. And the truth is, Sean, my dad should have kicked the crap out of me. That's how violence works in families, right? It gets passed down generation after generation. But my dad was like, I'm not doing that. And I think gave me, you know, even though he was stubborn and everything was a disaster all the time and anger was always coming, he did give me that. That ability to see, you don't have to relive what you've been given in your life. And. And that has been, for me, kindness has become right to the forefront. Because of that is like, instead of facing things with anger, just do the opposite of your dad on this one.
[04:59]
Shawn French
It's interesting, right, because as we grow up, we have certain things that happen to us in our lives, whether it's, you know, I grew up in, you know, a rather, I would say, explosive situation. You know, my dad wasn't punching holes in the wall, but, you know, I remember my parents fighting a lot in it. You know, there were screams and there were things like that. And typically, you know, as. As these kids grow up, as you grow up and as I grow up, we have the opportunity to determine how we, I guess, raise our children and how we are in the house. And the cycle, at some point has to stop, right? And. And so how hard was it for you to break that cycle because you created a completely different POV for your kids?
[05:40]
Brad Meltzer
You know, I appreciate the question. I feel like for anyone listening, it looks like, oh, and this guy turned out nice. How great. Like, it's not easy. What you guys get to see is that final product, right? And I get to tell you. And you'll say, oh, I'll tell you some stories. And you'll go, I like that guy. But it took years. It took decades of my life. I used to meet everything with anger, every frustration was I. Because that's what I learned. That's what I was taught. And my dad passed away. My mom passed away. And I'm thankful. I hope. I think what changed my dad's life, truthfully, is, you know, his dad used to beat him up. He wasn't taught how to love, but my parents always loved me. They weren't perfect. They'd screw things up, but boy always knew they loved me. I remember there was a. There were a group of bullies who came and started, you know, they were all picking on me. They were five years older than me in Brooklyn. And I went up, they put, like. Remember those itchy balls? Those things you. That, like, once you put in someone's hair, they won't come out okay? And. And they were like, come play with us. Come play with us. And then when I went there, they just jumped me. And. And I remember coming upstairs crying, and I was so upset. I couldn't have been, like 8 years old. And I remember my dad was like, where are they? And he ran downstairs, grabbed the main bully by his throat, lifted him into the air, his feet this far off the ground. And I remember looking up and him saying, if you touch my son again, I'm going to kill you. And I remember in that moment going, I don't know who I'm rooting for here. I really thought my father. I'm like, this is just turned really bad. And I tell you that because he had that terrible side. But, boy, if you messed with us, you got the whirlwind. And so that love. Even in his worst moments, we never doubted he loved us. And I think for me, if you don't have that, that's the hole that you never fill. But I always had that. And so when I was talking about it, when I was dealing with it, I could always at least fall back on that foundational thing. I knew for all the other faults, my parents love me.
[07:41]
Shawn French
Yeah, that's. That's an interesting story. I have a similar story. Not, you know, my mom or dad choking somebody, but I can remember, you know, because I grew up in California and I lived in this place called Kinwall Apartments. It wasn't in the best area. You know, I was young, we didn't have anything, didn't have any money. And at one point, I'm walking along, going to play with my friends in the apartment complex, right? And these guys upstairs were shooting bbs at me. And I don't know how old they were. They were probably mid-20s, early-30s, right? Or something like that, I'm not sure. But I went home and told my mom. I was like, hey, these guys in apartment, whatever number it was, they're shooting BB's at me. And my mom went up there, knocked on the door, they answered, and she goes, you shooting BB's at my son? They're like, oh, it's just a joke. And she lost her ever loving mind, Brad. Literally, they try to close the door on her. And that woman put her fist through an apartment front door.
[08:36]
Brad Meltzer
I believe that. I go, listen, I remember I was writing my dad's eulogy and. And I couldn't like my mom's eulogy. When I wrote it, it came to me, like, in a second. It was one of my favorite things I've ever written. I put it out on my social media every year on her death. But my dad's wasn't clicking. I couldn't see it. And because he's so. It was such a complicated relationship. It was like I, you know, I knew my dad loved me. I didn't know if he liked me. And that was always the pull, right? Because I was a serious guy and he just wanted. He was a bruiser. And I'm sitting there, and my buddy from junior high school and high school writes me a note, and he says, you know what I remember about you and your dad? And I'm like, I got nothing. And I'm sitting there stuck, trying to write my dad's eulogy. And he says, I remember when your son. When my son was little, about your son's age, actually, Sean, we went to was a Little League game they would go to. Everyone would go to Marlins Stadium here in Florida to go watch the Marlins play that one Little League day. And, you know, all the teams go. And there were. My. My son and all of his friends were in one row. And then there were older kids that were on, like, the Yankees. It literally was the Yankees. I'll never forget. It were, like, behind them, and they were, like, two years older, and they started bullying my son and his friends. And what these kids didn't know is I was in the row, a couple behind them, because all the coaches sat in the back. And I saw it, and my friend saw me, and he said, I'll never forget you ran over and grabbed that little kid that was bullying all these little boys and basically said, you do it again, you know, you're finished on this earth. And he said. And in that moment, he's like, I know who you are. I know you're a sweet guy. I know you put love in the universe. He says, but I saw the old Brooklyn Stewie Meltzer in you, and I was like, oh, that's it. That's what lightning does. It comes down and it strikes again, and it strikes again. And I was like, that's my. That's my thing for my dad is like, he was the lightning bolt that kept coming. But when it came to the violence and it came to. He just. Instead of showing us the violence that his father showed him, he showed me something different. And that's the only reason why the lightning didn't strike again with me.
[10:40]
Shawn French
Wow. So the protect. The protective aspect, right? It's like.
[10:44]
Brad Meltzer
Like, that's what he passed down. I am that. I am still like. I mean, again, the same way with your snif. Something happened with your son right now. You would put your. Like, your mother. You would put your fist through anyone's wall, car, or anything else.
[10:57]
Shawn French
You know, that's the thing. It's like. And my wife's the same way. They're one of our three children, right? We had two beautiful girls. And, you know, like, they're. They're at my middle daughters at this age, where she's starting to get picked on a little bit. She's eight. And there's some things that went down earlier. And I'm like. And I said to my. I said to my wife, I'm like, I need to find the dad.
[11:14]
Brad Meltzer
Oh, yeah.
[11:15]
Shawn French
I need to find the dad.
[11:17]
Brad Meltzer
Of course. I'm like, you do not. Oh, that's where Brooklyn comes. I mean, no doubt about it, because it's your kids, and that's your protective nature, you know? And I think in a weird way, right, Like, I firmly believe that if you put good into the world, the world becomes a better place. That is my core value of mine. It's a completely naive idea. That's an idea worth fighting for. I agree with it. I also believe that when you see injustice or you see someone getting picked on and the world's not making sense, you got to grab it by the throat and force it to make sense, right? Sometimes you just have to go. And that's also an idea worth fighting for. And to me, that's all life is. I've spent so long saying which side is right. I have characters that I've written that are my two main characters. Literally. One is that one. And the other. And which side is right. Of course they're both right. You do need to be a good person and put good into the world and show that kindness and empathy to people. And you do need to stand up for people when you. Especially when you see injustice, you gotta fight like you've never fought before.
[12:22]
Shawn French
I love that, man. And it's so funny, because nice guys like us, people think that there's not that other side to us, and they like to try to push around.
[12:30]
Brad Meltzer
Don't mistake kindness for weakness.
[12:32]
Shawn French
I. I hear you, man. You know, I. I tend to stay quiet in those situations because I'm afraid I'm gonna set what I'm gonna say. But, you know, the bottom line is, is, like, just because we're kind, just because we're real and authentic, doesn't mean we don't have that streak to us.
[12:47]
Brad Meltzer
And listen, and you have to be better than what angers you, right? I mean, I'll never try and do it. I mean, and my dad. Listen, my dad could turn that and then turn so lovingly. He would go into every Barnes and Noble, every bookstore in his neighborhood. He'd go in every day and he'd go, like, I'm here for Brad Meltzer's new book. He's my favorite author. And they're like, Mr. Meltzer, we know he's your son. We know. He's your son. We know. And so he was like this lovable, sweet guy, but again, you mess with his family and. Right. So proud. But if you mess with his family, just will immediately, you know, will turn on a dime like that.
[13:20]
Shawn French
Yeah, yeah. And. And you know, a lot of what you experience as a child, no matter what way you look at it, it molds you into the type of dad you are. Right. And the type of parent you are going to become. Spouse, writer, professional. Recently, about a year ago, you had the opportunity to speak at a commencement for University of Michigan, which is you're an alumnus of Michigan, but I want you to share with the audience what was really special about that day.
[13:48]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. No, I love you for this. So, yeah, I went to Michigan and always wanted to give the commencement address. In fact, at my commencement, when I was there, my sister was not there. And so I was fighting with my parents more than regular. And so I was just in a pretty bitter mood. And they had actually given students an opportunity to submit a speech to be the speaker. And I wrote a speech. I was like, I'm going to win this thing. I wrote this speech. I didn't even make it past the first round.
[14:16]
Shawn French
Wow.
[14:16]
Brad Meltzer
And I remember at 22 years old sitting there in that stadium and just being like so upset that day. And then 30 years later, I get the call from Michigan saying, will you be the graduation speaker? I go, 30 years later, I get to be the one on the stage instead of the 22 year old in the stands. And when I look at that, it's an amazing, can't even explain moment. Right. It defies all logic, but I mean, 70,000 people are staring at me, but I'm focused on one, one, which is my son, because my son was graduating Michigan that day. And so the 14th row there, and he's in the 14th row, I can see him. He texts me where he was. And I know 70,000 people are cheering and yelling, but I got my eye on this one young boy who I love. Like the sun is, you know, with the heat of the sun itself. And I got to finally put my. I was struggling with this speech and struggling with this speech, and my wife finally said to me, just give your boy the best advice you got. And I was like, that's it. I'm not writing for anyone else. I'm writing for one. And of course it became the, you know, when I was done with it, all these people wanted copies they wanted. They were like, can you send me the text of that speech, people were tracked down my sister's unlisted phone number and said, I saw your brother in a stadium, and I think he's your brother. Can you give me the text? That speech, I want to give it to my kids, my grandkids, my nieces, my nephews. I never in 27 years, Shawn, have had anyone ask me for the text of something I said. And I was like, what just happened? And the thing went viral, and people started passing all around, and it was just something I never anticipated. And what was it? It was for my boy. And you know that every good moment as a parent, the big moments you plan, you say, this is going to be the magical moment for your kids. That's always a dud. That never works out. The best moments with your kids always are the ones you don't plan anything for. They just show up. And that was it for me. I was like, I'm just doing this for my one kid. And of course, that's the speech that starts getting passed around the Internet.
[16:20]
Shawn French
Well, I loved it. I mean, it was. You were funny, you were kind, you're empathetic. But the thing that was special about that class, and as you mentioned, and for those that haven't seen the speech or read the book, Making Magic, it, that class was born around the time of 9 11, then their freshman year in college. They. That was when the epidemic started, right? The pandemic. Sorry, that turned into an epidemic. You know, like.
[16:47]
Brad Meltzer
My son. My son was born in October, the month after, weeks after 9 11, okay? In 2000, 1, pandemic hits, and he gets no prom, he gets no high school graduation. It's canceled. Covid canceled it. So. And then here we are at his graduation, and, you know, it was at the time of all the protesting and everything else, and they almost canceled it again. NYU had their graduation canceled. So this was a group of kids that never had a prom, never had a graduation since junior high school. And I'm the one in charge of it. And, you know, I'm sitting there speaking, but what worked out is every parent in that room, in the room in the stadium, was like, yeah, we all lost it. We all think that these things happen just to us, but it's one of those moments where you can come together. And what I talked about is there are things that are unexplainable, and then there are some things you can't explain at all. And that's what magic is to me. Magic is what you can't explain. And when you talk to magicians, they'll tell you that there are only four types of magic tricks. You put aside illusions and escapes. There's four types of tricks, right? One, you got to make something appear. Two, you got to make something disappear. Three, you take one thing, you switch it with something else. And the fourth is you got to take one thing and you turn it into something else. The hardest trick of all, which is transformation. And one by one, we can talk about each one. But I'll go with the third first, just because it's fun. So I talk about what you have to make appear and what you have to make disappear. But I get to this part, that's the third trick, which is you got to take two things and make them switch places with each other. And I said, here, let's talk about empathy, because that's what empathy is, right? It's switching places with someone else, putting yourself in their shoes. And I told this story, and I never get to tell this story, but I'll tell it to you. I'd never told it before in my whole life. Even my wife was like, I don't know if I've ever heard that story. But When I was 13 years old, my dad lost his job and we had nothing left. Nothing. In fact, we had so little they couldn't afford the money for a new apartment. We didn't have money for the down payment or even the security deposits. We had to live with my grandparents in Florida. We moved down to Florida just for a free place to stay. And it was six of us. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself and two grandparents in a one bedroom apartment sleeping on the floor. It was not a good situation. And everyone in the condominium, because it was Florida, of course, is trying to get us evicted, saying, you can't have that many people in such a small space. And this neighbor, a stranger across the hallway from my grandmother, sees what's happening to my family and she comes to my grandmother and says, listen, I see what's going on there. I'm going to move out. Why don't you take my apartment for a couple weeks so your family can get back on their feet so they don't get evicted. And I remember always her name was Mercy. But as a kid, I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake, Mercy and empathy is what she showed us. And today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with. It's become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is showing Kindness and showing empathy. And, Sean, when I said those words in the stadium, I thought people would, like, be like, oh, whatever, you know, I don't know how they were going to react. I never told the story before, and the place exploded. I remember going, what. What just happened there? Yeah, what happened? And my wife said, you tapped a vein you didn't know was there. And I realized in that moment that we are all, as a culture right now, starving for kindness. We're starving for empathy. And I think it's so vital. It's the reason why I wanted to come on your podcast is I saw your commitment to it is. And I realized the only way we can fight back is to encourage people to put that out there.
[20:37]
Shawn French
You know, I remember watching the commencement and, you know, there was a lot of funny points, you know, because you. You displayed humor and you were just. Your. Your speech was so eloquent and just different than a lot of other commencement speeches. It was almost like an interaction, right, instead of a lecture that most commencements are. And when it. When it came to the point where you wanna. You wanna shock the world, show kindness, the place went nuts.
[21:08]
Brad Meltzer
That was the end of that part. It says if you. It says, you know, one day someone is gonna hug you so tight that all your broken pieces will fit back together.
[21:17]
Shawn French
Yeah, man.
[21:17]
Brad Meltzer
And. And I. I heard that at a funeral, a friend of mine told me that line, and I said, I love that line. It just. I. I was, you know, move to tears when she said it. I said, you know, right now, you got. The world is starving for decency, for kindness, for empathy. If you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness. That's a completely naive idea, but also an idea worth fighting for. And I never saw a reaction. You know, I did, I think what were great jokes and great bits and whatever else, but that was the thing that brought the house down. And I loved in that moment, for me, you know, I firmly believe this, Sean. I'm not that special, right? I started writing, you know, even though I write thrillers and Real History in my books, I started writing kids books because I wanted to give my kids better heroes to look up to. And the one philosophy is, I'm not that special. And if I want that for my kids, and if I want to show people kindness and empathy, I'm not going to be alone. And sure enough, there's an entire massive group of people, your audience especially, that is committed to that as well. And when we realize that, then we're not alone in the universe. Anymore. Now we got something to be together about. And what it doesn't say in the speech is it's hard right now. Right? The world can be an upside down place. And sometimes when we get a lot of bad news, we shut down because it's just too much. Right? And that's why we swipe to a new channel or we swipe off our apps because we're just like, it's just too much. I can't hear all this bad news right now. But you can't shut down. You can't shut down. We need you right now. And here's the part that I didn't put in the speech, is that when you look at the studies of empathy, here's the crazy part about it, is that empathy is actually malleable. And if you want to have more empathy, all you have to do is want to have more empathy. So it's like what, your freshman year of college, that's when you make the most new friends. You want to know why? Because you're just open to making new friends. The moment you decide I'm open to it, they all come. And that's how empathy is. The moment you say, you know what? I'm going to show some empathy today. You will have more empathy, will show up. And that means, again, like we started, it's all in your control.
[23:27]
Shawn French
Yeah, it's. It's interesting because that, that is the exact message I got, right? And it's something that I try to live. I try to live by with on my, on my show and in my life in general. Right. Because what you see is what you get. I'm not one way here and then another way in my personal life. Do I have my flaws? Absolutely. My wife will tell you. Right. But it's one of those things, man, where what I've learned in building this platform is that multiple people from all walks of life who may have different beliefs want to be heard. And they want to not just be heard. They want people to understand their perspective. And that's what I've really tried to do with the platform is create a neutral place where they can go, not feel judged, can be heard, can give feedback and pretty much anybody's welcome.
[24:17]
Brad Meltzer
I wrote this line in my book that someone said to me once. It's one of my favorites. And it says the most intimate thing in life is being understood and understanding someone else. And I was like that. I was like that undid me. And that's what you're doing, right? You're giving people a place to feel Understood. No judgment, no politics, no BS involved. That. That's the thing, is we're so busy fighting each other these days, we forget how much we have in common. Right? That's what our apps do. Our apps are designed by. The algorithm is designed to make you mad. Why? Because the more mad you are, the more you stay on it. So it's designed to make you find enemies. And what you have to do is fight that urge and push that away and realize there's so much better you can offer out there if you just kind of open up a little bit more to the universe and realize you can't change anybody else. The only person you can change is yourself. That's it. That is all you got. And if we all say that, the whole world changes.
[25:19]
Shawn French
I was asked a question today, right? With everything going on, we're, you know, obviously this is not a political show, but, you know, everything going on in the world, the apps are designed to get us to fight, right? And then you just. Most recently, obviously, everybody's talking about the tariffs and all that stuff. I don't want to get into the details of it, but I was asked my POV and I said, here's what nobody wants to hear right now. No matter what you believe, where you sit on the aisle, whether you're left, right, middle, doesn't matter, confused, or wherever you sit, you are being impacted by the government's decisions no matter what. So you can play the blame game all you want, blame it on one side or the other. But the reality is, Brad, what we have to do right now as parents and humans in this society is stay in our lane, Focus on one thing, focus on our families, focus on our craft, focus on getting better and putting good into the world, and what happens, happens. That's all we can control.
[26:19]
Brad Meltzer
I firmly believe that most people, obviously, there are total douchebags out there, right? There just are. We know that there are. Of course we know that.
[26:28]
Shawn French
Oh, God.
[26:29]
Brad Meltzer
But the average person, okay, what we are trying to do is show our family love, give them a better life than sometimes that we had growing up. We all have hopes. We have dreams for them, right? And when you meet people, they don't want to fight, but the Internet is like someone said, and it's so right. The Internet is like the bathroom wall in a stall, right? It's like people just write the worst crap. And if you read the bathroom. What's written on the stall in the bathroom and thought that that was real, you're insane.
[26:57]
Shawn French
I know.
[26:58]
Brad Meltzer
So why do we give so Much power to some nonsense we read by some guy on the Internet. Like it'll be like listening to what's written on the stall. So ignore the stall. That's all it is. And I do hope you know, and I think telling the stories and reminding people of them is. That's where you get your power from. I mean, there was a. I'll tell you this story. When I was in high school and I was 13 years old, I used to work with a guy named Nick Wicket. And Nick Wicket, this was back in the, in the, in the late 80s. So everyone wore a gold charm and a little symbol on the end of it. And I wore a gold Superman symbol because I like Superman. And Nick used to wear on his gold charm. We would scoop ice cream together. He used to wear a. Like a whale dolphin tail, like the tail of a dolphin. Because his dream was to train one day the dolphins at Sea World.
[27:50]
Shawn French
Wow. Okay.
[27:51]
Brad Meltzer
And it was such a wild, weird out there dream. And if I had nothing, Nick had less than I did. Always. I had two parents. He was a single. He came from a single mom. If we had very little, he had less than that. And so Nick fought his whole life. And four years with Scoop and ice cream were getting yelled at by customers all the time. And when my first book comes out, Nick Wicked, I lost touch with him. It was pre Internet. I didn't know where he went. I just lost touch. But it was around time, my high school reunion. And they give us the addresses of everyone coming. So I sent invitations to everyone in my class saying, come to my book signing because who else is going to come? It's my first book and it's my third book. So I'm not far from you. I'm in Vero Beach, Florida. Nobody's there. It's my parents and my wife and nobody. There can't be 10 people there. And in walks Nick Wicket with a pint of Haagen Dazs ice cream. And I say to him, I said, man, what happened to you? Where are you? What are you doing? He says, guess. I said, I have no idea. Where do you live? He says, orlando. And I go, oh my gosh, you train the dolphins at SeaWorld, don't you? And he says, you have to come and see. So I, I get my butt up to Sea World and I. And I'm. You know, it gives us a little roped off section, makes us feel important. And all of a sudden the show starts and the. And the first trick is the dolphin comes out of the water and jumps, you know, 25ft in the air, and Nick Wicket is standing on the nose of the dolphin. He's not, like, throwing food to the dolphin. He's the star of the show. I start crying. I'm bawling, and I'm like. And to see that guy who came from nothing actually live his dream in front of my eyes. And he saw me after, he's like, why? The only person cried more than you is my mom. But to watch that, that's what gives me hope. In the universe, we spend so much time fighting, we lose sight of these amazing moments. And that's my core belief. I believe ordinary people change the world. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care how much money you make. That's nonsense to me. I believe in regular people and their ability to affect change in this world. And I've watched what Nick has done with Make a Wish kids and people you don't know and strangers and, you know, all these kids that come and. And, you know, just want to have that one day of. Of kindness before something happens. And that has more impact on the world to me than any stupid politician, than any nonsense out there. Whatever side you're on.
[30:16]
Shawn French
I agree with that. It's funny, real quick, before I. Because you touched on the gold chain and the. In the charm, so.
[30:22]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. What do you got?
[30:23]
Shawn French
Silver gold chain?
[30:24]
Brad Meltzer
Yep.
[30:25]
Shawn French
Two bats crossed and a baseball with a diamond in the middle of it.
[30:27]
Brad Meltzer
Beautiful. That's it.
[30:30]
Shawn French
My parents gave me this. This pendant when I was playing high school baseball. And my. My mom asked my son one time. She goes, honey, what would you like for Christmas? He goes, I want to change just like my daddy.
[30:44]
Brad Meltzer
Oh, that would undo me.
[30:47]
Shawn French
So. So here's where it gets crazy, right? So, you know, he got a white gold one, you know, so it's not identical to me, but it's a. Bats. You know, two bats crossing a ball in one day. I just hear this sobbing upstairs, and I'm like, what the hell just happened? I run upstairs. I'm thinking, like, he broke his leg or something. Or something happened. And he's in the bathroom, and the pendant completely snapped in half and went down the drain. The man. The young man was so hysterical because it meant something so much to him. And again, my. My mom ended up getting him another one, and it's all fine.
[31:26]
Brad Meltzer
Right, but, but, but, but you. But you hit on the point. That's what life's about. Yes. Right. That he wasn't. He wasn't mourning just the chain. It was he knew that that thing was you. And my dad and this person who loves me and looks out for me. You know, there's a sign in New York subway right now and it says, who will remember your name? It's a potent question, right? Who will remember your name when you're gone, who will remember you? And that's one of those moments, right? Your boy like you, what you're etching in his life is you make history every day. And that, that charm, he, I guarantee you when he's our age, in 30 years from now, he's going to still be wearing it, hiding behind his shirt and pull it out and say, here's my dad. Right? And obviously there's so much more, but here's my dad.
[32:13]
Shawn French
Yeah. And I just think that's the start of teaching young children like. And you mentioned, you know, ordinary people changing the world. Let's really focus on this for the audience right now. Audience, I really want you to think about this. The reason why you follow people and you love people and you, and you're influenced by them. Hopefully it's for the right reasons. And typically there's a lot of people out there doing good things in the world and we really need to tune into them. And they're just ordinary people. Like, hey man, we're ordinary people, me and you, right? You know, it's so funny because as my journey gets a little more intense and involved and become more known, people look at me different. Right? And they look at you different because, you know, hey, look, you're 13 time New York Times bestseller, but you're still Brad, you're still an ordinary person who is executing on their gifts. And, and by you doing that, you're living your real purpose in life and you're spreading love as a result. And, and that's where, that's where I really focus on things. And it just, to me, it's touching because if I look at everybody I look up to, all the people I look up to, it's not the normal people you would think. It's people that are. I can connect with when I'm having these conversations and know and feel where their heart's really at.
[33:31]
Brad Meltzer
I love you for that. Well, we did a study a couple years ago with a real actual, like a company that does this stuff nationwide. And one of the things we did is we asked people, who are your heroes? Who do you look up to? And I thought they were going to be like, you know, whatever famous people or, you know, famous athletes or a president, depending on your politics. Whatever it might be, they weren't even in the top 10. They barely were there. It was mom and dad and grandparents, even, whatever the age range, whatever you pick young kids, old kids, didn't matter. And I was like, I'm encouraged by that because it doesn't feel like that all the time. But I do think, you know, and again, even the people you don't like can be amazingly helpful to you if you change your point of view on it. At Haagen Daz, when I was scooping ice cream and I told the story, you know the story, but I was scooping ice cream one day, and this woman comes up and she starts snapping her fingers at me. And I'm like, ma' am, I'll be with you in a second. She says, no, no, no, help me now. And I'm like, you know what, ma' am, you're being rude. I'm not going to help you. And she's like, you better help me right now. I'm like, you know what, ma' am, I'm not. And she said, you know, you're going to be working. She screams in my face, you're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. And I calmly told her, ma' am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. And I used to, like, laugh and be like, oh, that woman never bothered me. But I'll tell you, Sean, it totally bothered me. It completely dug at me because my dad always struggled financially. And I was worried what that woman said to me, that I was going to have the same financial struggle. But I also, as I got older, that woman drove me, she fueled me. So we always say, like, when you say what you have to make disappear in the magic tricks, you know, people want to say, make your fear disappear. But I don't think that. I think, use your fear. Harness it. Don't vanquish your critics. Prove them wrong. And so whether it's a good person or a bad person, you decide what power they have over you or what they can do for you. And that, you know, when we were putting together Make Magic as a book is we wanted to give those magic tricks to people and say, you can do these every single day. And here's a little bit of inspiration you didn't know you needed, because, man, we all need it right now.
[35:44]
Shawn French
So it's so funny. Like when you. When you told that story, I kind of chuckled, right? Because we all have that person I remember, you know, growing up in seventh grade and, you know, my PE school teacher, Mr. Dorn, saying that you were the worst athlete. You'll never amount to anything.
[35:59]
Brad Meltzer
Oh.
[35:59]
Shawn French
And I'm like. I looked at him, I'm like. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, you. You can't run the mile. You can't do this, you can't do that. I'm like, oh, that's all, you know, that's. That, That'll be fine. I go, we haven't got to the baseball portion of this unit yet. And then once I did, once we got there, you know, I showed everybody, you know, the athlete that I was. And, but, but the main thing is, is. Is having those people, those doubters. I mean, because, you know, there's been plenty of doubters on, on my current journey. I, I, at the beginning, there was a big chip on my shoulder, and I wanted to prove everybody wrong. Now I'm on this massive journey just to prove myself right. And, and, you know, in, you know, as a consequence, it's like kind of giving everybody else that, you know, that proverbial middle finger that said I wouldn't do it, that laughed at me and said, who is going to listen to your show? And I'm like, well, I guess now. I guess a lot of people.
[36:55]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah. But for me, you know, listen, I got on my first book, I got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers. I got 24 rejection letters, right?
[37:04]
Shawn French
Double down.
[37:05]
Brad Meltzer
That. That means two people doubled down to make sure I got point. But I remember back then being like, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And the week after I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, Sean, I started my next book. But here's the part you don't know about that story is every day that I sit down to write. And here's the part, the 23rd and 24th rejection letter I thought were going to be acceptance letters. There were two publishers that actually said, we love this book. Can you come meet us? Because we want to make a bid on it. So I met two of those editors. I went to New York, I met with them, had big meetings, and I was in all this debt at that time. I had law school debt, I had college debt. I was just up to my years in debt. My agent said, we're going to get you out of debt. We're going to sell this book. There's going to be a bidding war on these, on number 23 and 24. Someone's going to buy it. You're going to get out of debt, Brad. I said, great. She told me to sit by my phone. She's going to call me with the number to tell me, because back then there were no cell phones. And I picked up the phone, expecting her to tell me, here's how you know, here's how much you want to get for your book when you're going to be out of debt. And I'll never forget. I picked up the phone, and I'll never forget the words. She said, sorry, kiddo, and my heart sank because it means 23 and 24 are both out, too. They didn't want it either. And every day, Sean, here's my secret that I sit down to write. I replay that moment. I re pick. I picture the phone that was in my hand. It was one of those clear, see through phones. You could see the wires because that seemed high tech.
[38:31]
Shawn French
Yeah, those were cool.
[38:32]
Brad Meltzer
They were cool. I picture the desk on my left with the swivel lamp every college kid has. On my right is a bed and a box spring. That's all I had. There was no headboard or anything fancy. I look over the balcony. There's an empty gross parking lot and a fire station with three doors. I count the doors in my head. One, two, three. And then I say those words to myself, sorry, kiddo. Because I never, ever want to think I made it. I never, ever want to think I got it all figured out. I never, ever want to be anything but thankful for this life I've been lucky enough to have. And for 27 years, every day I sit down to write, sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. That's my magic trick.
[39:12]
Shawn French
And see, and that's what I love, right? And for the audience as we land the plane on this episode is, you know, choose to get the lesson out of that. Like, you've wrote many, many books and they've all been successful, but that one moment was the pivotal moment in your life, in your career. You could have said, you know what? I just don't have it. I'm just not going to do it. And one major, I guess you would say, similarity to all successful people is that they have that moment where they are rejected for that last time. That kind of just breaks the ice. And it's like, you know what? I'm going to go hard. I'm going to continue to go hard, and one day this is going to be successful. And that's what you've done. And that specific moment and everything that you do every day, that is your process.
[40:00]
Brad Meltzer
Yeah, right. Listen, the Wright brothers. The Wright brothers, every time they went out to fly their plane would bring enough extra materials for multiple crashes.
[40:06]
Shawn French
Yeah.
[40:07]
Brad Meltzer
Which means every time they went out, they knew they would fail. They would crash and rebuild and crash and rebuild, and that's why they took off. But that's what people are saying. I love. That's what people love. That. That's what I'm saying. That's what you're saying. Of course. Same thing. Gosh.
[40:20]
Shawn French
Like, you know, it's like you don't get to the top without getting your teeth kicked in.
[40:25]
Brad Meltzer
Oh. Every history book we write, whether It's Rosa Parks, Dr. King, we did Abraham Lincoln. I showed you half the dozen elections he lost. George Washington lost elections. The new book is We Are the Beatles. And they talk about how they're terrible. They're a terrible band. And then they basically go to Germany and they play for the better part of a year, they play 1100 hours, just plain and plain.
[40:46]
Shawn French
They didn't care where, they didn't care.
[40:48]
Brad Meltzer
Where, they did not care where. They said they could smell the toilets as from where they were. 1100 hours. And they're like. And then we got good. And they were like. But what we all see is the end result. And we forget that. The best part, all the success, is the failure. That's not the bug. That's the feature. It has to happen. And when we come on, if we just build statues of heroes and we build this big granite statue and we worship at their feet, we do them a huge disservice. Because anyone we've talked about, Rosa Parks, The Wright brothers, Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, anyone you love and admire had moments where they were scared and they were terrified and they didn't know they could go on. But they do, baby. They just keep going.
[41:30]
Shawn French
That's it. It's like that. That. It's. It's the stubbornness. It's that discipline. That's the determination.
[41:37]
Brad Meltzer
I say, that's the right brothers. I'm like, I. I want my. My kids to hear that story. I want everyone to hear the story. If you dream big, you work hard, but you have a side order of stubbornness. You could do anything in this world. And I'll leave you with this is when I look back on the experience. I had 24 people who sent me rejection letters, 24 people who told me to give it up, said, you can't do this, Brad, you can't write this book. And I don't look back on the experience and say, well, I was right and they were wrong and haha on them. I look back and realize life is just subjective and all you gotta do is find one person. Sometimes it takes one yes and just one yes to change your whole life. And your job in life is to find that one yes. And I was lucky enough to find it because I just kept going at it. But just look for the yes. Don't hear the nos. Just look for that one yes. And that's how the whole thing changes.
[42:27]
Shawn French
The main thing is those 24 rejections are the 24 things that made you who you are.
[42:36]
Brad Meltzer
If my first book sold, I would either be insufferable or I think I did it all. Or did what? But I'm so thankful every day for those rejections. I'm so thankful for that woman at Haagen Dazs who told me I'd be working there for the rest of my miserable life. I'm so thankful for that whole condominium that said to me, you know what, Brad, we want to evict you. Get out of here. You got nothing. You know you're no good. Like that grounded me. It gave me humility, it gave me decency, it gave me empathy for other people. My God, man, I wouldn't trade that for anything. All of that was, was, you know, that was, that was all part of the action.
[43:11]
Shawn French
Now you're a superhero, man.
[43:13]
Brad Meltzer
I don't know about that. I'm just. Trina, we're like everyone just trying. You just, you just gotta love yourself for who you are. That's it. That's it.
[43:21]
Shawn French
I feel that. I feel that. Well, man, look, dude, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me. I know my audience is going to get a ton out of our conversation and I can't wait to read We Are the Beatles. I can't wait to read it to my children because, you know, for the parents out there, if you want great books for your children so they can read something to look up to people that are, that are worthy of looking up to. Check out Brad Meltzer series. Like, you're going to love it. I can't wait to read it. And like I said, read it to my girls. And I just did. It's just been a great pleasure having you on today. I just. Thank you so much.
[43:56]
Brad Meltzer
Thank you, brother. Appreciate the help with Make Magic from the start. You were so supportive of the speech and the book that we made of it and all that. I really appreciate it.
[44:03]
Shawn French
Well, I am positive this is not the end of our communications and our relationship, so I'm grateful for that. To the audience that listen to this episode or watch it, please send this episode to somebody that you know would get a ton out of it. Someone that's going through things that the world may seem unkind to them but they're struggling anyway. Let them listen to this episode so they have the courage to continue on. Until next time, stay determined.
[44:32]
Sharp French
Sharp French what up? This one luck I let the pain inspire me I put my all in Everything I'm doing up until it's done I'm me for the entirety I put in overtime I'll be working Just know I'mma go for mine cause I earned it they watch and I know it's time I confirmed it the whole society determined, determined.