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Pamela Anderson’s Resurgence in The Last Showgirl – Creators Robert Schwartzman & Kate Gersten
00:52:39
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- [00:01]
Robert Schwarzman
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- [00:03]
Kate Gersten
Knows everything about money?
- [00:04]
Robert Schwarzman
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- [00:28]
Interviewer
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- [00:37]
Robert Schwarzman
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- [00:43]
Interviewer
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- [00:49]
Robert Schwarzman
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- [00:50]
Interviewer
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- [00:55]
Robert Schwarzman
This movie was such a. Carrying, like a bunch of like, plates with your feet and your hands every day to just make sure we could get to day one. Getting Pamela eventually to say yes.
- [01:05]
Kate Gersten
I don't know why I always sort of thought that Shelly needed to be played by somebody who could contort themselves into a vulnerable woman, you know, of a certain age. Pamela was just so naturally that the idea of a woman who is in a show that she does not realize is gonna close. We had amazing actresses attached to it, but they never really had the right quality. They never had that vulnerability that Pam brought to it.
- [01:34]
Interviewer
Robert Schwarzman, Kay Gersten, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to talk to you guys today about the last Showgirl. Amazing nostalgic movie that. That really plays on later in life, comeback stories or development and really pushes that envelope there. So just welcome, man. Thanks for.
- [01:50]
Kate Gersten
Thank you for having us.
- [01:51]
Interviewer
Wow, genius. Genius. You guys have done some amazing things. Like, you know, you have done so many different movies. You come from, you know, a family that's, you know, well established. The Coppola's here. And you know, I believe your mom's Talia Shire too, right? So I grew up watching her.
- [02:05]
Robert Schwarzman
Yeah.
- [02:06]
Interviewer
You know, like, that's so cool.
- [02:08]
Robert Schwarzman
It's funny cause I never. She's always just been my mom, you know, like, it's funny, but it's funny when you have a. When your parent is an actor. Actors are different than directors and producers. Actors are in the front of the camera, so they're recognizable, right? And then they take on a life of their own because you know them for a role possibly if they, like, if there's a movie that's a hit or a show, you can't escape. But knowing them as like, yo, Adrian. But as a kid, you. As you grow up, you Start to realize, oh, she means something to people as this character. And then you, when you see her on a TV or on a movie, you really start to, it's, you have to kind of, you wear two hats. You're like, oh, that's my mom. And oh my God, she's an amazing actor who's done so many cool things. So. But we still fight all the time.
- [02:49]
Interviewer
Oh, I bet. And you probably feel the same way about your uncle.
- [02:51]
Robert Schwarzman
We get into it. Yeah, but like, we get into it.
- [02:53]
Interviewer
With your uncle too, right? Francis Ford Coppola. Like, you see him as your uncle, but then to everybody else he's, you know, this, this director, you know, he's a legend. Right.
- [03:01]
Robert Schwarzman
So, you know, it's probably this similar thing if you, I bet you, if you talk to like, let's just say there's a forward facing personality in the entertainment business that you know of. And then maybe they have like family members you might meet along the way and they might have stories. But also people who probably work for those people closely. Like an assistant who's with them every day starts to see the personality shine through. Not of the person we know of their work, but just their human life. So you would hear stories from anyone around, anyone who's with them regularly, because you build up a closer relationship to their human, who they are as people.
- [03:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. And I think at the root of it, right, I look at people like, this is your profession, right? That is their profession. But the root of it as a human being. Right. And I'm always, yeah.
- [03:48]
Robert Schwarzman
I want to think so.
- [03:49]
Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, you would want to think that, right? But like, but like, I always try to look at that when I'm having conversations with people like, these are human beings, they just are really cool. They do really cool. They have really cool jobs and they're really good at it, you know. And speaking of that, I mean, your work is genius. You know, like, you did amazing job the last show girl. But then we were talking, you know, off camera about, you know, the good place. Like those are, those are well written films. How do you, how did you. And again, you know, one of you can take it first. It doesn't really matter what order. But how did you decide this is the route you wanted to go in your career?
- [04:25]
Kate Gersten
Well, I grew up loving the theater. My family was all in the theater. I grew up in New York City and I went to the theater all the time. My dad was a stage manager. My mom was a dancer before she was in advertising. My sister was an actress and I just loved going to the theater and I loved musicals. I loved plays. And I always knew that I wanted to be involved. And I studied acting and writing and all the things from when I was really young and went to college for it, went to Juilliard. I went to Juilliard for grad school. I went to UCLA for undergrad, studied theater then, then went to Juilliard for playwriting and just always knew I. Exactly. I just like, loved it so much. It was pure passion.
- [05:15]
Interviewer
I love it. I love it. What about you, big guy?
- [05:19]
Robert Schwarzman
Like, how did I get. How did I find my way into it? In a way.
- [05:21]
Interviewer
Yeah. I mean, I know it's part of like, you know. Cause like, there's some people that don't follow the family business. Right. So what about it for you?
- [05:28]
Robert Schwarzman
What drew me in? Yeah, I mean, I think it was. I'm always drawn to things that like being able to have an idea, whatever the idea is, and then put it into action and like see the result and see it happen. It could be anything. It could be like, let's paint this room red. Like if there's an idea and it excites you and then you can turn it into reality. That's amazing. So it could be a company idea, a technology idea, a film idea, a song, anything. Planning a family trip. Like. Sure. When you know, it's like those don't always turn out good.
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Kate Gersten
It's like it's the thing.
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Robert Schwarzman
Yeah. It's like that's the fun of it. And I think creating for I. Weirdly, I mean, maybe it's not a surprise, but it's like I always talk about family businesses. Like people. The movie industry is a business, the music industry is a business. And there are. It is a profession. And when you are growing up around it, you start to learn about this profession and gain your own perspective and what excites you about this profession. And then when you chase that profession for yourself, that's no different than if I grew up in a family that had any specific thing they did. Because it was generations of. Let's just take. We take a certain job. Like, I mean, like cobblers. Yeah. No, if I. If you were gonna do. It sounds so stupid, but if you're gonna replace your roof in your house and you're looking up companies that are out there and there's a company that was. It's a family owned business that's been doing roofs for like 60 years. You'd probably work with that company. Right, right. Of course there's history. And this he Learned from his dad. Learned from his dad. You pass on this like, understanding of, of this, what this job is similar to like film families, music families. You know, you grow up learning, watching, shadowing, absorbing, and you apply it to your own passions and excitements for the stories you want to tell. And you just gain a know how and perspective of how the industry works. So that's how I look at it. But I just really fell in love. I always wanted to make movies growing up. I grew up in Los Angeles. I don't, I don't, I don't think we grew up in a family that was like pushed into the industry. I didn't show up at like an audition as a five year old trying to be in a movie or something, which is fine if you are. But yeah, that wasn't really where the passion was. It was watching movies, mute, listening to music. You fall in love with the thing.
- [07:46]
Kate Gersten
You'Re making and the things that you're exposed to. I think that that's a big part of it. It's like when you're in a family that really is passionate about that thing, you're exposed to a lot of film. I'm, you know, he was probably exposed to tons and tons of movies that most little kids aren't exposed to. I was exposed to a ton of theater that most little kids weren't exposed to. And that just exactly like Robert was saying, really forms who you are as a person from a very young age.
- [08:11]
Interviewer
I love that, I love those answers because in your, in your analogy with, you know, whether it's acting or roofing, you're probably going to end up in the family business because you understand it and it's just the way of life. The thing that I really loved hearing about your perspective is the love that you have for it and what it creates for you. Right. I think that along the lines, and we'll get into the movie here in a bit. But when, when, when individuals are choosing a career path or, or chasing something down that's new to them, it comes with a vision, it's a seed. Right. And they want to nurture that thing because they have a feeling of what it's going to look like. Sometimes it doesn't end up like that and it ends up completely different. But it's always nice to experiment in it and see how it grows to your point. Right. It's like, wow, that was pretty darn cool. Right?
- [08:55]
Robert Schwarzman
You know, it's interesting too because the jobs that we've chosen or the career paths we've chosen, I mean, maybe this is actually. Maybe there is a difference actually with my kind of focus and Kate's like me. K Movies is a community, like building an experience. Community, collaborative experience. Like if you like being with people. Some people don't want to be social. Like, they're really antisocial. They don't like to put themselves. Like if, I'm sure if, you know, I don't want to speak for Kate. But if you're working on a screenplay and you like to just put on headphones and go in a corner and work or go in a space and just focus on your. Your work, that's probably, you probably have your own relationship with the material by yourself before it gets into a community experience where it's being discussed. I love the community. Getting people together, like hosting a party or something is very similar to making a movie. You're bringing these people together to create an experience together. So I just really like that environment and, and so I seek that out all the time. So even sitting here with you talking is this, we're community, we're sharing in this experience together. So the jobs, making movies is about bringing people together. It's really hard to make a movie all by yourself.
- [10:09]
Interviewer
Right.
- [10:09]
Robert Schwarzman
You really have to work with a cinematographer on the lighting. Cinematographers have to work with gaffers and your electric team to discuss how you're going to set up this shot. So it is. There's a trickle down of communicating ideas to each other. So it's about community music. I spent a lot of time doing music for a long time touring. You're living in a bus with all these people. Every day you wake up, you know, you're like sharing water bottles to brush your teeth every morning for 14 years. Like, you're just like living on the road, I'm sure. So any job you think of where people are kind of like, yeah, like moving away from their families, living with this community, coming back into their family environment, it's a different. It's a certain kind of lifestyle and you either like it or you don't.
- [10:50]
Kate Gersten
Yeah, theater is the same way where you're really making a family of the people that you're working on a show with. And you're, you're in this little microcosm of a world that you've created with this specific group of people. Same way with filmmaking. It's the thing that I loved the most about doing shows all over the country when I was an actor. It was like. It's the thing that's so great about being a part of the theater community in New York City or anywhere. It really is a special group that you feel like you're collaborating with on this very sensory level that's really exciting and just fun and feels like family in the best way. And actually, Francis has a great quote that I always really loved that he says that creating a group of people on a film is like creating your own little utopia. And I really always. It's so visceral, that idea of coming together with people to create this perfect world, to make a piece of art.
- [11:55]
Interviewer
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- [13:43]
Kate Gersten
I guess that I'm in my own little special utopian world with my characters. And so I don't really feel very alone when I'm in my process, but. And then I really love the process of actually seeing things come to life. I love being in a writer's room with a number of other writers. That's a very fun process for me. I love being in pre production for a television show or for a movie. I love that, you know, collaborative situation, whether it's with producers, if I'm developing a television show or something. It's like, I just like working with other people. And I think that as a writer, it's helpful to be able to interface with other people and communicate well and be able to feel like you're in this collaborative spirit with other people.
- [14:28]
Interviewer
That's awesome. And I'm gonna ask this question because I'm intrigued. So when you're in your own utopia with these characters you're writing about, do you ever find yourself just lost in those characters and really just kind of feeling those emotions of what they're feeling as you're writing?
- [14:42]
Kate Gersten
Yeah, absolutely, I am. I'm working on a couple of projects right now that are really. One of which is very personal to me about my childhood and the people who I grew up with. And I'm having all these, like, memories of people who were in my life as a child and reanalyzing these situations that I sort of, you know, that I sort of had had ideas about when I was little. And now I'm sort of re evaluating as I've gotten older, which is also the process that I had on the Last Showgirl. When I wrote it originally, it was very much that there was a part of Shelley that was my mother and a part of Hannah that was me. And my mother worked very late at night all the time. We weren't estranged the way that they are, but my mom had a very successful career that was really away from our home, and she was away a lot. And so I was with the neighbors all the time. But I also was with my dad, who I loved. But basically, now I'm a mom. And so now I can look at the character of Shelley. And when we were writing the screenplay, I was already a mom, so I could look at the character of Shelley through a much more compassionate sort of lens and be able to sort of reanalyze the relationship between Shelley and Hannah from that perspective. From the perspective of being a mother who also is away sometimes.
- [16:11]
Interviewer
Yeah. That's interesting, because as you're walking through that, we all kind of. Look, in your profession, you're able to reconcile those characters through, you know, through your childhood. Right. And have a different perspective, look at it differently. There's a. There's a little bit of healing that goes on with that, right?
- [16:27]
Kate Gersten
Yeah.
- [16:28]
Interviewer
Like, yeah.
- [16:28]
Kate Gersten
I mean, it's a very fun therapy process sometimes. And, you know, not all. All of that needs to make the page, but totally, you know.
- [16:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's awesome. So, okay, the last Showgirl. Amazing cast. Right? Pamela Anderson, Jamie Lee Curtis, Brenda Song Kiernan, your brother Jason.
- [16:46]
Kate Gersten
Wow.
- [16:47]
Interviewer
Like, walk me through that whole process and, you know, your perspective on the movie and, you know, how it turned out, because it was awesome. Right? Those. Those. That is not. That is not a small cast. That is some dynamic individuals.
- [17:02]
Robert Schwarzman
Yeah. I mean, I think to walk through it, I mean, there's a life before the film team got involved. Right. Like, there's the. Right. You know, Kate's experience with the material with Las Vegas, with the Jubilee, you know, just inspiration. You're absorbing all this great Las Vegas kind of inspiration.
- [17:21]
Kate Gersten
Yeah. Do you want me to talk about that? Yeah.
- [17:23]
Robert Schwarzman
Talk about the screenplay.
- [17:24]
Kate Gersten
So, I mean, I went. I was in Las Vegas while I was studying at Juilliard. I went to Las Vegas for a brief period of time when I was in, like, 2013, and I was writing the pattern between songs for this one woman's show. It's, like, very hacks, but it also was actually not like. It was just very much.
- [17:41]
Robert Schwarzman
It was.
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Kate Gersten
She was a vocal impersonator. Celine Dion was the producer of our show, and we were taking over the Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night performances of Jubilee, which was the last standing classic showgirl review in Las Vegas. And I went to see Jubilee while I was working on this show, and I was only there for, like, two weeks, but I was instantly captivated by what was happening in Jubilee because It was, like, 85 women on stage. I knew there were, like, 40 people on the crew, and then there were, like, 15 people in the audience, which I just thought was crazy. And it was. And we had. Our houses were, like, sold out, and our show was very sort of like, it was a vocal impersonator, but she was really sexy and cool, and it was just sort of an interesting. I was interested to observe the way that Vegas is changing and how what was sexy then is different than what's sexy now. And, you know, and I went home, and I immediately, like, I mean, before I even went home, I spoke to the dancers in our show. I spoke to the dancers in Jubilee. I developed a relationship with this woman, Diane Palm, who was the company manager of Jubilee, and started talking to her in depth and really just was very compelled by the idea of a woman who is in a show that she does not realize is gonna close. That's, like, this legendary show and that she's been in for, you know, going on 30 years. And it just struck me, and I went home and I wrote the play, and the play Was like, you know, we. We started doing workshops of it as soon as I got back to New York, and it was under option for Broadway, for the West End. For years and years, we had amazing actresses attached to it. But then. But they never really had the right quality. They, like, never had that childlike innocence. They never had that vulnerability that Pam brought to it. And it never got produced because of that, because there was just never the right actress there to play that role.
- [19:38]
Interviewer
The thing that I love most about it, and I want to share with both of you is what you had mentioned. She's been a part of the show for 30 years, has no idea it's about to close down. And it parallels life so well, because at any given moment, you. You are forced into an identity shift. Right. When I was younger, I called it an identity crisis. And that's very, you know, there's no power in that. Right. So as we move on in life and we're challenged to reinvent ourselves later on, is there is. It's an identity shift. And if you look at this like, there is a massive grind going on, but, you know, behind the scenes without you knowing it. So it just kind of. Kind of forced you into a moment where like, oh, wow, this is potentially reality. How do I react from this? And that's one of the things that I love about the show is, you know, you know, my show and then even the movie, right. It's. It's. There's a massive intersection there because we just don't know. And that movie just shows that, like, later on you can be challenged and there's going to be a little bit of a change. But how you respond to it is the other thing.
- [20:43]
Robert Schwarzman
You know, the. So the fun part of this movie that people maybe know or don't know is that, like, there's some family ties to this whole backstory. So, like Gia. So my cousin's Gia, my sister is Kate, so we're all family. Sister in law, so I didn't know that. Oh, yeah, yeah. My brother Matt. Yeah.
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Interviewer
Okay. Yes. Okay.
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Robert Schwarzman
So it's the way you hope it happens where, like, if family works in a certain industry or certain things they focus on, if things can align nicely, it's great if it works out that way. Sometimes there are projects that just don't make sense. You know, maybe there's something you're someone's working on for another company and there's no room to work on it. But Gia was making indie films as a filmmaker, as a director, and as a. As like a brother. Figure cousin. I always felt protective. My hope was just that Gia would get to work on a project that she was really, like, passionate and excited about. Because you should. If you're making an indie movie, you should love the thing you're doing.
- [21:49]
Interviewer
Sure.
- [21:49]
Robert Schwarzman
And what just on that sort of objectively. Sometimes projects take, like, years and years to make, and it can be. You're kind of burning a lot of time not getting your next thing going. So put that over there. But, like, so I was doing music for a long time, and then I started producing, packaging, and directing feature films. And I was making, like, a movie every year. That was my goal, was, like, one movie a year and keeping that flow. And Gia was like, how are you making all these movies so quickly? And I was like, well, because there's a certain way of, like, finding material that kind of works in the way where you can put movies together faster financially. And a movie's bigger and you have bigger talent, usually you're inviting in more voices, more things that take more time to make. It just happens like any movie. I mean, even if you sold a movie to big studio, there's a whole set of circumstances that then have to invite their opinions in. And it takes more time. If you make an indie and you can find a budget that is more appropriate and you can get the right pieces in place faster, you can create more speed, and, like, output makes sense. So in Gia, like, kind of waiting for the next thing to happen. What I was saying to her was like, let's find something. This is before Kate and Gia had time together, where she discovered that Kate had written this great play. But it was really like, let's find something. We can just go shoot quickly and not wait and talk about this forever. So there were, you know, in that. Out of that comes a what about a da da da da da. And you're kind of waiting for somebody to come along. Gia calls me one day. I don't know what their experience was together. I wasn't involved in that. But G is like, I think there's a great project that Kate has that I know about that's set in Las Vegas. She wrote it as a play. She's now adapting as a feature. I think it's amazing. We should. This could be one that could fit into this model of let's go make things right. It's set mostly in the backstage area. Why is that important? Because when you go in front, you have a big audience. You have a lot of set pieces. Kate wrote it as a play. Plays are done on Stage. There's a certain way you would write a play, right?
- [23:56]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [23:57]
Robert Schwarzman
It's consolidated. Right. So it's about the characters, the way they interact. But I'm just saying I'm a. As a producer, like, I'm looking for stories that you can tell in an appropriate. Like that fit a budget. Right. Because you can execute that story right. If you. If you find the right one that you can marry with a certain budget level. The Last Showgirl wasn't a micro budget. It wasn't like a. That indie, down and dirty version of what we had originally talked about.
- [24:24]
Interviewer
Right.
- [24:25]
Robert Schwarzman
That kind of a movie is. It's hard to pull off the Last Showgirl. Even though it's mostly consolidated locations, there are company moves. If you watch the movie, there's a house, there's this backstage, there's the upstairs, there's a stage, there's a restaurant. Those are company moves. Right. So that's still moving your crew around. There's still cost to do that. But you know where the complications come in are making sure the quality is there because you need these wonderful outfits. The costumes have to really be the ones that we would imagine in a show that we believe was of this level. So to do that you have to get supporters. So we were so fortunate, but we were talking about, do we shoot this in la, in a theater? Thinking about the versions of this movie that could have happened are crazy to me because the version that we made is so the right version. But there was so many last minute, tiny little decisions that happened at the buzzer that were so meaningful to the feeling of the film that helped lift up the story and help elevate things in a way that I think for Kate's material really did right by the story that was in her head and the story that we were hoping to achieve, you know, in this creative way. I think Gia also is a very visual person. So, like a lot, if you look at the film, there's a certain style to the cinematography shot on film. It's hard to make a movie on film in 18 days. Because if you said, why? Why is that? Right? It's because sometimes with film you can have things go wrong with it in the processing of film or the transfer of film. When you develop film, if there's any little light leak problems, you lose the whole thing. So if you have Jamie Lee Curtis for a few days and Jamie runs off to her next job, as she should, you can't get her back.
- [26:02]
Interviewer
Right.
- [26:03]
Robert Schwarzman
So you're losing that setup. Hopefully it's not a oner it was. There was a oner through the casino. If you lose the oner, what do you have? You have. No, you can't cut to anything.
- [26:11]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [26:12]
Robert Schwarzman
So I'm just saying there were, we were in the universe brought us wonderful things that really supported our film. And I think we, you know, this was the movie that was meant to be made. I think everyone's really happy with it. You asked about cast that, that if you kind of did a documentary about the cast in this movie, that would be a great kind of little mini doc. Just because we. You have to make any movie. It's so the industry, it's so you could do a whole episode on this. The industry is its own worst enemy. The film industry is its own worst enemy. It trips over itself every day. All day long people complain about not working this, that and the other. But the circumstances, typically we're, we're creating circumstances that are not helping things happen.
- [26:55]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [26:56]
Robert Schwarzman
Like responding to emails quickly. Like from, from agents and lawyers.
- [27:00]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [27:00]
Robert Schwarzman
The amount of time it takes to negotiate a film contract is a joke. Like I'm serious.
- [27:05]
Interviewer
Like how long does that take?
- [27:06]
Robert Schwarzman
Like wait way too long. Months. Months.
- [27:08]
Interviewer
Months.
- [27:08]
Robert Schwarzman
Months. Like, but here, let's go. Let's do like pretend I came to you and I was like, hey, we, I got this great India. Will you invest in it? You'd say who's in it? Tell me about it. Oh well, we have da da da and da da da in it. Really? That's amazing. You have da da da in it. Da da da should be a real actor.
- [27:25]
Interviewer
Yeah, exactly.
- [27:27]
Kate Gersten
Great.
- [27:27]
Robert Schwarzman
I'm tracking. And then eventually, eventually if you didn't know me. Right. You would want to see Da da does really in it. Send me data does contract.
- [27:37]
Interviewer
Right.
- [27:37]
Robert Schwarzman
I don't have it yet because it's not negotiated because I can't get the deal done because it's taking months. Because why? Because if you're an indie, you're not getting paid a gazillion dollars. So what motivation does anyone have to get the deal done? That's a trickle down problem because if I have to go get my financing, I need a show. My investors, that's they're attached to my film to get it because I'm sure people have been burned and hurt in the past by bad, you know, like not honest production people. So we hope we're running a more upfront operation with how we make movies and hopefully the track record shows. But I'm just saying it took, it's such a, like, like this movie was such a Carrying, like, a bunch of, like, plates with your feet and your hands every day, right. To just make sure we could get to day one. And that's like the cast, you know, like, getting Pamela eventually to say yes. And it was. Pamela wanted to do it. You speak.
- [28:34]
Kate Gersten
Well, what was amazing was that, you know, we had just started our process of trying to figure out who was gonna play Shelly. And my husband Matt, Robert's brother, watched the panel.
- [28:46]
Robert Schwarzman
Shout out. Shout out to Matt.
- [28:48]
Interviewer
Shout out to Matt, Shelly.
- [28:48]
Robert Schwarzman
Shout out to everybody. He's gonna love this shout.
- [28:51]
Kate Gersten
He's gonna also happens to be the one who gave my script originally to my play to Gia and said, oh, you're into Las Vegas. She wrote a play in Las Vegas. You know, Shout out to Matt Shire.
- [29:01]
Interviewer
Dude, he's killing it.
- [29:02]
Kate Gersten
He's great.
- [29:02]
Robert Schwarzman
Matt connected his wife with his cousin.
- [29:05]
Kate Gersten
Yeah. He put.
- [29:06]
Robert Schwarzman
Can you believe he.
- [29:08]
Kate Gersten
Also, the other thing that Matt did was he watched Pamela's documentary Love Pamela on Netflix.
- [29:13]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [29:14]
Robert Schwarzman
A little documentary that no one had heard of.
- [29:15]
Kate Gersten
It was right when it. I think it was the first.
- [29:19]
Robert Schwarzman
I'm a jokester.
- [29:21]
Kate Gersten
I do think it was right when it came out. I think it was opening weekend. Yeah.
- [29:26]
Robert Schwarzman
No one saw it. Well, he saw it before I discovered this fricking documentary. He found this little unnamed little da, da, da.
- [29:33]
Interviewer
You may have heard of it, you.
- [29:34]
Kate Gersten
May have not, but it was like the first weekend it was out on Netflix. He watches it. He said he was like, gia, I know who your Shelley is. And he was like, just watch this. Just watch this. And then. And then you talk to Kate about it. And then Gia texted me and she was like, just watch this.
- [29:50]
Robert Schwarzman
And.
- [29:50]
Kate Gersten
Because I think that, you know, we all have an idea of who Pamela was. And I think that in my head, I. I don't know why I always sort of thought that Shelly needed to be played by somebody who could contort themselves into a vulnerable woman, you know, of a certain age. And Pamela was just so naturally that from like the get go, when we saw her in this doc, I was like, well, this is amazing. We all wish to so aligned and. But then it was a process of trying to get it to her. Her first agent, like, rejected it within an hour.
- [30:29]
Interviewer
Oh, wow, that's pretty quick.
- [30:30]
Kate Gersten
And then without reading it, it was.
- [30:31]
Robert Schwarzman
Literally just like, I should touch on that. Cause that's come up a lot in these, like, sort of it's part of Hearst Journey for this new. Taking on new types of roles as an actor. Like, I think it's possible, you know, I look at the way the industry operates. I spoke about time and things get. Emails get lost, things get overlooked. People don't get responded to. It's so everyday business 101 here. I. I just don't. I think like for an independent film to just out of the blue offer the film to Pamela was maybe different, was new for maybe the team to see these kinds of projects coming in. So for whatever reason, it just maybe just didn't feel real enough at that time to really consider it heavily is my political way of answering this question. But it's so common. It's so often that you have to find ways in to people through other ways. Right. So it's the equivalent if you've seen the movie Bowfinger.
- [31:27]
Interviewer
Yes, long time ago.
- [31:28]
Robert Schwarzman
It's such a good movie, such a random. But it was Steve Martin. You seen both? Yeah. Oh, my God. So good. Rewatch both. I think Bowfinger is like a whole other. It's like on another level now. It's like amazing. But yeah, it's like it's not. It's like there's always some odd way someone ends up in a movie or you go through someone else, a friend knows somebody and. But that's how, like, you know, Pamela's son Brandon, kind of helps manage and oversee aspects of her business. And luckily he looked at the material, took a closer look at what was being made, and really gave it a. Gave it had the team really look at and give us the time. And eventually she. She really was excited about the film because it's a great role. Obviously, Kate wrote a great role for Pamela as a relaunch of her creative life. And Gia, as a filmmaker, spoke to Pamela stylistically. So there was enough there for her to say, yes, this movie. What's interesting about Last Showgirl is that it was made in a way outside the system, which is really interesting to talk about because I think more movies have to be made this way. I think for them to preserve their integrity and identity and get made faster and get. Just happen.
- [32:40]
Interviewer
Right.
- [32:40]
Robert Schwarzman
So what I mean is like. And I'm not saying that we didn't work with agencies or collaborate with great people because we had. We had great support. But there's a point where you create momentum with anything and then people jump on and they're like, oh, this is happening. Right? It's like totally human nature. You have an idea for a startup company, people, maybe they like your idea, but they're not sure how it's going to be executed at first. Oh, my God, you've already Launched your product. You've got this many users. Hey, man, how can I get involved? Total human nature. Right. To find that momentum point. But like, we, you know, Gia had grown up. Fortunately, she grew up in Los Angeles, an industry town. She had met Jamie and knew they had, you know, Gia growing up in la. Her daughter went to school together, took a Hail Mary. Hey, Jamie, would you look at this script? Pamela's gonna play the lead. Jamie was so excited about it. Absolutely. I would love to be part of this. She loved the material. She loved the character. If it didn't make sense for. If a role doesn't make sense for somebody, you can't just jam them in it. It's not going to work. At the end of the day, you have to. You, the audience, have to believe everyone in the film or else it doesn't work.
- [33:45]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [33:46]
Robert Schwarzman
So you have to make decisions. You can't just put someone in because they're famous. It's the kiss of death. If it's not the. The right match, you see through it. But I think what people like about last show Girls, it does feel like a slice of a world that they can believe in. And the casting was. Was. Was right. As you said earlier, forget who's. Forget the name and what level they are. It was just really good casting. That was all done. Very directive to.
- [34:08]
Kate Gersten
Yeah.
- [34:09]
Robert Schwarzman
There was a casting director specifically, that gave a list of actors. In the beginning, we did kick around ideas with the casting consultant, but we didn't have. We didn't continue that path forward. We really went direct to actor eventually and just kind of bypassed that way of doing it.
- [34:26]
Interviewer
It's resourceful, sure, but.
- [34:27]
Robert Schwarzman
And Dave Bautista had taken a general with Gia years ago. And I'd said to Gia, what about Dave Bautista for Eddie? And then I said, hit him up on Instagram. Like, just like, message him.
- [34:39]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:40]
Robert Schwarzman
So she literally messaged Dave Bautista on Instagram and he responded, or whoever works with him responded very quickly and said, just send me the script directly. He loved it because he expressed to G wanting to do, like, more exciting, challenging roles that are different than the roles he was known for at that time.
- [34:55]
Kate Gersten
And emotional.
- [34:56]
Robert Schwarzman
More emotional characters. And just. It was an interesting choice to have Eddie played by Dave. And it works. When you see the movie, you're like, that's amazing.
- [35:02]
Kate Gersten
Yeah.
- [35:02]
Robert Schwarzman
But Dave having the wig, he had great ideas to create this character. Yes.
- [35:06]
Kate Gersten
He had that wig made on his own. We didn't even see it until he showed up in Las Vegas with it, wearing it. And we were like, oh, My God. Is that not your real hair? It looked so real.
- [35:15]
Robert Schwarzman
That's where I just think that's the fun part of the film is like looking back is like, you know, the strikes were going on in this industry. The WGA and sac. Two strikes were going on. We had to be very mindful of the rules of the strike and supportive of those who were out of work. And we had to wait and see what was going to happen. And we weren't given. We didn't get a waiver as an indy. We were a waiver. We're the poster boy of the waiver, but we never got one. Waivers were given. Movies of multiples our budget. Right, right. That wasn't what it was meant to be. So I can't speak to that. It's a political problem. But I can just say that we waited out until there was a resolution. Right. And then we were able to re engage all parties and begin this process. And we were. We shot right after the New Year's, right after New Year's Day. Like literally a day later, we're all in Vegas. That means there's no real prep time. We moved our location literally after already doing a scout. We had scouted the movie. A tech scout is where you have your crew, your department heads show up and walk through every location and make notes about how you're going to shoot. Light it. We had done that for a whole other hotel location. And then I called Gia and I was like, this is going to sound crazy, but another plan B hotel just finally got approved. We're going back. We're going to re scout. You should move it there. She's like, are you. This is insane. It's like Christmas tomorrow.
- [36:38]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [36:38]
Robert Schwarzman
Got on a plane that day. She went back out re scout. I went scouted for her with our production designer, said, you've got to do this. She flew in the next day and we moved it to this. So there's a lot of these last minute things. But that's the fun of the movie was like. It was like this great balancing act. But I think that's how fun movies get made that we remember in a way. Great stories come out of these movies that we remember. But Brenda Song, Kieran and Shipka Jason was like not maybe gonna be in it like that day. Got on a plane and went out there, has this crazy look. But it worked out for the film. But yeah, anyway, I'm just kind of. These are the fun stories that don't really get discussed.
- [37:15]
Interviewer
But you know what I love because I'm listening to all this, right. And I'm going deeper than a movie here. Right. Like, I'm hearing everything.
- [37:22]
Robert Schwarzman
Sean, we're ready to go there.
- [37:23]
Interviewer
Come on, let's go deep. This is life.
- [37:27]
Robert Schwarzman
Yeah.
- [37:27]
Interviewer
There's, you know, using the network like this case, it was a lot of family, right. To come together and build something collaborative that. So people can tell their story, so you can get something out and can shoot it and. And people can relate to it by watching it, whether, you know, at home, like on, you know, Hulu, whatever. But then you have this underlying current of adversity going constantly that you guys continued to push through and to find solutions to certain issues, whether it was the strike or, you know, the first. No. From Pamela's camp.
- [38:03]
Robert Schwarzman
Right.
- [38:03]
Interviewer
All these different things. There's a lot of people that would sit there and say, like, hey, this just isn't happening. Stay the course. Right. And the. The product was a successful movie. In the audience listening, you know, I'm really. I have a lot of faith in my audience that when they're listening to what you guys are saying, they're taking the actual content and the ideals behind what you're saying. Like, I can apply this to my life, you know.
- [38:29]
Robert Schwarzman
You mean outside the industry?
- [38:31]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [38:31]
Robert Schwarzman
For anything, really.
- [38:32]
Interviewer
For anything. Because it's universal.
- [38:34]
Robert Schwarzman
Right.
- [38:35]
Interviewer
There's moves that you had to make. There's. There's obstacles that were coming up constantly, you know, whether it's, you know, two. Organization, strike, you know, a.
- [38:43]
Kate Gersten
No.
- [38:44]
Interviewer
A different hotel. Right. All these different things that are. That are going on gives the audience the feel like, hey, even in Hollywood, no matter what job you have, you're going through some shit and you may have to pivot at the very last second. I hope everybody's fluid and can make this adjustment with us. So I just. I really enjoyed everything you guys were saying because that, to me is. That's what speaks.
- [39:06]
Kate Gersten
Yeah, it's all persistence and.
- [39:07]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Kate Gersten
And resourcefulness and just.
- [39:11]
Robert Schwarzman
Yeah.
- [39:11]
Kate Gersten
You know, can do attitude.
- [39:13]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [39:14]
Robert Schwarzman
It definitely. Yeah. I mean, you can definitely apply it to a lot of things in life, I think. I mean, you know, it's. Problems are relative, you know, to whatever the circumstances are in everyone's individual lives. I. You know, everyone has their own set of hurdles they have to overcome. In other film experiences, you might zoom out and look at the last showgirl and see it on Hulu. And if you don't know, the industry might think it was made by Hulu even. I don't. People. Who knows how people are looking at it?
- [39:42]
Interviewer
Sure.
- [39:43]
Robert Schwarzman
We Made the movie. Every down and dirty is a very subjective thing to say. You could say down and dirty is this. But for someone else that's far from down and dirty. So I can't. I'm just saying for our own, the way we looked at this and our experiences, there's challenges within your own set of what your own experience is. Right. So. And that's a very personal thing. A lot of. I have a lot of filmmaker friends that have their own have. Could tell you stories about how they made films and how things happen. And if you go back in time and look at great films that were made over the years, you'd hear great stories of like, watch Hearts of Darkness. Like a bad Apocalypse Now. Like watch. Like when you look at. When I talk about last show rule stuff and I watch Hearts of Dark cuz I feel like so much better. I'm like, wow. Like wow. We didn't have it.
- [40:29]
Kate Gersten
Nobody had a heart attack on our.
- [40:30]
Robert Schwarzman
That was insane. So there's a lot of. Yeah, I just don't. I don't want to like generalize or make this the sort of like new norm of how things happen in any way. But I do think that every film that gets made, I will say a lot of people come together. Here's like a good kind of statement that put the bow on it. Studio movies, indie movies, TV project, whatever it is, everything has its own challenges and it's not easy. And there are a lot of people that come together to make it. To make everything you see.
- [41:01]
Interviewer
I love it.
- [41:01]
Robert Schwarzman
And really what it should mean to all of us is it's really important to go out there and support what people are making. Because it's so tragic. If you see a movie in theaters across the country and you go in and there's like two people there and you see the. Wait till the end and watch the credits go by and you're like, wow, look at hundreds of people worked on this movie.
- [41:19]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [41:19]
Robert Schwarzman
Like, think about that, right? Like they made that movie so you could go there and sit there and watch it and enjoy it.
- [41:25]
Interviewer
It's so cool, man.
- [41:26]
Robert Schwarzman
And no one's there. You're. You're in a world now where people are using software and computer technology to like quickly create like some products. Right. Without all the people that go into it. Probably. Yeah. Like we're all bracing for some new version of like society. But it's pretty cool. I mean, I'm sure there's an appreciation for like there, there. Maybe they're. Maybe it'll become like, what vinyl is to the music industry. Like seeing all these people work on a movie is like vinyl. Like remember the old days when all.
- [41:57]
Interviewer
Those people were actually there.
- [41:59]
Robert Schwarzman
That's so cool, man. You actually. All those people actually worked on it.
- [42:02]
Kate Gersten
Everybody had separate jobs.
- [42:04]
Robert Schwarzman
Maybe that's going to become the new like collector's piece. Interesting. But I don't know. But I just, I just want people to know that. I want your listeners to know and your watchers to know that. Viewers. Watchers. What am I talking about? Viewers. I want everyone watching this to know that it is true that like when a movie comes out, like when you make a movie and you edit a movie and you color grade a movie and mix a movie, you're watching the movie on almost like a theater size screen. So imagine. Why are you doing that? Because you're creating the product to support this experience. Right. And then it ends up like on this side screen. Right. So it's odd that we still make movies for that big experience, for that big screen when people are really kind of going the other way. But it's so kind of amazing that people are still keeping alive the hope of the big screen experience.
- [42:57]
Interviewer
I mean, I love, I love going. I mean that's, I mean constantly, I love to go.
- [43:00]
Robert Schwarzman
So it's important, you and all the viewers out there. Like when a movie is in theaters, that's not like a thing to take for granted. That movie will soon not be in theaters. That may be only in theaters for one day at this point. It may be in theaters for three days. It may get an awards qualifying run of 10 days. Right. But if it's there and you care about that experience, you should go out and see the film within that world because it's going to quickly go to digital and you're going to watch on your tv, not the big screen. And then it's going to go to a streamer and it's going to be basically free for subscribers. Right. So yeah, I'm just kind of saying the lifecycle of movie depends on the theatrical experience. If you're in the business of putting movies on the big screen, if you're making something directly for a streamer, which is fine, it will not be for the theaters, it'll be for the subscribers.
- [43:47]
Interviewer
Interesting. So very awesome. Yeah, it's very, very deep. And you know, I. Out of the industry, we don't see it like that. We're like, oh, I can, I can say, well, that movie wasn't in the movie theater for very long. But I don't know the reasons why? And now you've kind of given me a peek behind of what's actually going on. So go watch the damn movies, guys, okay? Eat your damn popcorn. Have yourself watch it.
- [44:06]
Robert Schwarzman
Well, it's interesting. I meet people, just everyday moviegoers, and they're like, hey, is your movie gonna be on Netflix? It's like, that's right.
- [44:14]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Robert Schwarzman
But I have to always say, well, Netflix is one of many platforms that licenses content, and it may not license my film or may not license, really any films that you want to see. It may be on Apple or Amazon or a TVOD platform to rent it. So I think there's this strange cultural. Almost like I feel it's important to talk about this because it's like a cultural, educational thing of saying, hey, do you know what Netflix is? It's a subscription platform. That means they have to license content for it to be available for you. That means they won't have everything you start to see. A movie on Hulu is not gonna be on Netflix unless it gets licensed after the Hulu window has gone outrun.
- [44:50]
Interviewer
And then.
- [44:50]
Robert Schwarzman
Exactly. So I'm just kind of important for people to know that they don't kind of kick back, relax, and wait for Netflix.
- [44:56]
Interviewer
Yeah. Get your ass.
- [44:57]
Robert Schwarzman
With all due respect to these great big tech companies, but I just think that. Yeah, like, I just think it's important to remember that movies like last year are being made every day, and they're out there in ways that don't get exposed because they don't have maybe certain talent spotlighting it, or maybe. Maybe the press aren't really giving a time of day or didn't get a big festival debut. But that doesn't mean they're not there.
- [45:17]
Interviewer
Yeah, good point. So as we come down to the end, I want to ask you both the same question, but, Kate, about Cilantro again. Yes. No, it's even better. It's even better. But I want you to go first. So show is called the Determined Society, right? And it's based on this premise that every single day that we need to display determination in our own lives, whether we're building a podcast that started in our car like mine did, and to a big, big platform that. That is getting a lot of love right now. I have amazing people like you guys on my show or, you know, a teacher, a writer, it doesn't matter. But everybody has to exercise a certain amount of determination every single day. So I'm going to ask you first, what does determination mean to you? Oh, sometimes your customers hide and you don't know where to find them. Don't leave me because I'll find you. But will you really? That's the problem. See, when we're pushing podcast episodes or we're pushing e commerce trinkets, it doesn't matter. Your customer can be rather evasive and your job is to keep everything in front of them so that they know where to find you, they know what to buy, they know where to listen, they know all that stuff. Constant Contacts award winning platform is all in one. It's all inclusive. It's like the vacation in the Bahamas, but for your marketing platform. Listen, guys, you can market your customer via email, text message, social media guys, in today's world, you got to grab them by the collar and pull them into your screen. That's what Constant Contact does for you, for us. So please, I use it. You should too. Get you some. Don't work harder, work smarter. Get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact dot com. Try constant contact. Free for 30 days at constant contact dot com constant contact dot com.
- [47:10]
Kate Gersten
I love this question so much and I'm really excited to go back and listen to your podcast and listen to other episodes because there is something I, I mean, what I have always, I mean, I, I know this sounds cheesy. Like I always just really loved writing. I, I've always just loved writing. But I have to love, be interested or like have further goals than just being like, I just want to sit down and write every day. And what gets me really excited is like making the thing that I'm writing because I can sit down and write. And I've done this every day for the last like billion years. Sit down and write.
- [47:55]
Interviewer
You're good for a billion years old.
- [47:56]
Kate Gersten
I'm like, it's amazing. Yeah, I work on it, I go to the gym. But I really feel like having a goal after the goal is one of the big things and having another goal after that goal and just really trying to, even though it may feel like pie in the sky or it may not feel realistic in the moment that I'm living in right now to just always have those further goals, those posts that I can either have that feel like they could be tangible one day, that those are what keep me very determined in the moment when it's like 7 o' clock in the morning and I'm like, I got to go sit down.
- [48:42]
Interviewer
You're speaking to my soul. Like, I love that answer. I love it. Because there's no finish line.
- [48:48]
Kate Gersten
Yeah, there's no finish line. And I Mean, I learned that especially with making this movie. It was like. It was like, we've made this movie. Oh, my God. One of my biggest dreams has come true. A movie that I wrote has gotten made, was in a movie theater, you know, starring incredible actors. And it came to fruition exactly the way I've always imagined it in my head. And that's a dream come true. But what's the next one?
- [49:12]
Interviewer
Exactly.
- [49:13]
Kate Gersten
And it really, like, just stoked the fire more.
- [49:15]
Interviewer
Love it. Good for you. I'm happy. I'm happy that you got to experience that. That's a massive goal and you got to accomplish it. But not the last year.
- [49:22]
Kate Gersten
There's a lot more.
- [49:23]
Interviewer
There's a lot more coming. What about you? What does determination mean to you, Robert?
- [49:28]
Robert Schwarzman
Well, you. I just. Maybe my answer won't be, like, the best answer, but.
- [49:33]
Interviewer
But it'll be yours. It'd be fine.
- [49:35]
Robert Schwarzman
Well, no, because I was. You. You mentioned starting the podcast out of the car.
- [49:38]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [49:39]
Robert Schwarzman
And then I was thinking about, like, how that sort of entrepreneurial spirit is what I really connect to, because I think filmmaking is, like, just a startup company. Like, every movie is a new startup company. It actually is a company and you need to get investors, believe in it. But no, I. So I started. Yeah, my sort of, like, determination was I was making films. I got totally bit by the filmmaking. Like, I want to make movies. I was doing music for, like, as a mystery for my. From, like, 18 or 17 to, like, as a profession. I was just touring and making records with Rooney, my band. And then I was like, I want to make movies and focus on filmmaking. Because I had grown up wanting to make movies. So that was a pivot point in my life where I kind of paused my music. This sort of regular, consistent life I was living, where it was like, could musicians live these, like, copy paste lives? Where it's. Unless you're making, like, perfume and like, fashion brands, right? Like, you, like, tour, relax, make an album or write an album and then go in the studio, make an album, release it, do press tour again, stop, make a record. It's like over and over again. So I wanted to bray. I was like, I don't, you know, I don't see myself always walking in with, like, my acoustic guitar. And that wasn't how I envisioned my life. I was like, here's my guitar, man. I was like, I want to make movies and do bigger things, so. And not that music is small, but I just wanted to expand my creative, like, life. So I started directing and I started putting Together these movies. And I was like, wow, this is so liberating. I can, like, dream up new ideas. I can collaborate with awesome people, I can find products I love and just put them together if it's the right thing. If I want to go make a crazy big fantasy movie and I need like a gazillion dollars, it's not going to be like an overnight thing. But that got me excited and I saw in this experience that film distribution was so broken you could make these movies, but no one was really taken a chance to support the releases of them. So my. I was determined to create a film distribution company. So I launched a company called Utopia. And we're seven years strong and we've put out a lot of movies, We've launched a lot of great filmmakers and their work and they've gone on to do great things. So I'm proud of what we've built because we found a world that we felt really needed more support and then. And then we've moved into production and stuff like that. So we've built a cool mini studio for independent film and that. So I said. When you said launch out of the car, it just kind of popped in my head of maybe. My answer was something similar, which was sort of taking on an entrepreneurial idea of let's. We found a problem in an industry. It's not making movies is not the problem, to be honest. There's so many movies that get made every year. It's not like, oh, man, we need more movies. Yeah, we need more movies to reach people in more creative ways. That's really the problem. So that's where I've kind of really focused. My time in a lot of ways is like still being creative and generating opportunities creatively, but also trying to solve problems in the world of film distribution. So that's kind of where my split brain focuses. So, yeah.
- [52:40]
Interviewer
Anyway, awesome answers and thank you guys so much for coming on the show. I enjoyed you both. Great conversation about the movie.
- [52:49]
Robert Schwarzman
Thank you.
- [52:49]
Interviewer
Introspective into your life, into your brain. In your brain as well. So I hope everybody's going to enjoy this. I know I'm going to enjoy listening and watching it back. And for the audience. Go check out my people. Go watch the last show, girl. Until next time, stay determined.