← Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset
Determined Society with Shawn French | Adversity & Mindset
The Hollywood Reality Check | Adversity Builds Discipline
01:24:45
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A curve in the road, a change in plans.
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Well, what do you say with the all new Audi Q3? The answer's always yes. Yes to adventure, yes to escape, yes
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to performance, yes to comfort.
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Yes to right now.
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Because saying yes without hesitation, that's real luxury. The all new Audi Q3, made for the yes Life.
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I had been auditioning for some crap sitcom pilot. All these actors sitting in the hallway on the floor. I go in. The casting director didn't look at me. Once I read my scene, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm done. And I left, like, so depressed. And that feeling of, like, how those walls just seemed impenetrably high. And then there I was. Three months later, I showed up for my very first day of rehearsal on Ghost. That was Demi Moore and me at this rehearsal. And here I was way beyond whatever the hell that pil. What it was. And I look back and I see that, and I was like, never forget this moment. I couldn't believe that I had this big part in this big movie.
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Every time we think about these walls being so high and where are we going? It's so hard to get off that mindset because it can truly tear us down. Hey, what's up, guys? Welcome back. I got an absolute legend here today. I got. Tony Goldwyn has been in everything. I mean, hell, he was Carl and Ghost, like, that was. That was a violent death for such a. Yeah. Mainstream movie.
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I've had several violent deaths. I'm still here to talk Dexter.
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Yeah.
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The Last Samurai.
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Yes.
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I think I've died like 20 times. I don't know.
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And you still look great, man.
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Vampire, you know?
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Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Excited to have him here today. Let's not forget scandal, obviously. President Vince sometimes, like, you know, I still still think you're my president. Well, I mean, that's how I want you to be. Dude, can you actually run?
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I so don't want to do that. I really enjoy my life. I don't want to destroy it.
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Oh, man, I hear you on that One too. But thank you so much for coming and sitting down with me. It was awesome meeting you at Fox 5 and.
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Yeah, it's crazy, right? Yeah, that was fun.
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That was weird. You know, it's like an experience. I'm sitting there, you know, Matt says, like, hey, that's so. And so I go sit down. I'm like, no, I don't think it is. And as soon as you opened your mouth, I'm like, sounds pretty damn presidential. That's crazy, man. But dude, I, I appreciate it, man. I really, really do. And you're such a nice dude. You know, it's the thing that, you know, I've spoken to many people that I've met you and it is a constant thing. I met Tony Gold when he's a super nice guy.
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Oh, that's nice to hear.
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Well, dude, that's a reflection on who you are, man.
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Kindness is important.
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I think it is too.
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It's not that hard.
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No, it's not that hard. Well, I mean, people are making it hard.
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Yeah.
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I mean, how hard is that today?
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It, I, I keep, I keep at it.
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Yeah, you do.
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I don't know. I'm happier. I think it's a. Yeah, it's a force you want to keep. Keep alive in the, in the universe.
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It's strange because when we met at Fox 5, we had a long conversation about just where society is at right now. Everybody wants to fight, you know, and it's just this, you know, pick a side. And we discussed the fact that if we just peel back all the layers and the onions and all the bull crap noise, we're all the same. We all want the same things, you know, So I appreciated that, man. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's wild. So how the production in D.C. talk about that real quick.
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That's great. So I co directed this musical with my choreographer, this, the amazing like genius Savion Glover, who's for. People don't know. He's like the most famous tap dancer in the world and a visionary artist. We did this show called Shay Joey starring Miles Frost who was actually a DC natives. Miles was the youngest winner of a Tony award for best actor in a musical. He played Michael Jackson on Broadway when he was like. Well, a few years ago he was 19, I think, or 20. And. And this is his next big thing. So it's called Shay Joey and it's set in a black jazz club in Chicago in 1940. And it's about this guy who has dreams of having his own club. He's Got this sound he's determined to put out in the world and the struggles that he goes through to make that happen. And it was amazing. It's an amazing show. Incredible music. Savion's work is insane and as is Miles. And we had a big hit in D.C. at the arena Stage. So it just closed on Sunday.
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And you sold out and we sold
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out and looks like we're going to be coming to Broadway, you know, the next season, so.
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Congratulations.
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That's great. Yeah. I want to come watch the details. Yeah, for sure. You'll dig it. I'll draw it.
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Because that, that I wanted to do the DC one. And Miles is super cool too.
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He's a really cool guy. Yeah.
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Great kid, you know, very talented.
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Amazing.
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You know, admittedly I didn't, I hadn't known who he was before, but then when he and I, you know, you know, shot follows on, on Socials, I'm like, I do know who he is, you know, And I was like, what a talented young man.
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He's amazing. He really is.
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Yeah, absolutely. So I'm glad it went well.
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It was great. Thanks. Yeah.
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Broadway though, man.
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Yeah, that's, that's, that's funny. It's a long journey. You know, we've been working on the show for years, trying to figure to fine tune it and get it right. And I think we finally kind of cracked it.
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B
So that's, that's an interesting. When you just said we worked on it for years and I want the audience to really tune into this because people think when you start working on something, it's quick. You know, things are built easily and there's so much behind the scenes.
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Yeah.
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You know, there's, there's adversity that, that is a big driver that people, once they feel it, they run. I think that's the point where you just. That's when I run forward. Even though it hurts tremendously at times. But like, walk us through that. Years of preparation. Right. For what were you there for like, what, three months? Right. Two to three months. Is that how long the production was?
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It was just around six weeks. So we were there for a few minutes with rehearsal and everything.
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Yeah.
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But, you know, our goal has always been to bring it to New York, to Broadway, but it's been almost 10 years working on this. But almost everything. I, you know, as an actor, when I get hired, you know, production's already on, getting ready to go, so that's all. They've been through, all the development.
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Right.
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But as a director, you know, movies that I'VE worked on one of them. Took me almost 10 years to get made.
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10 years?
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2 or 3 years is fast. The one I'm gonna do next, you know, the. The writer's been working on the script for two. Two. Almost three years. That's very fast.
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Wow.
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So in some things, you know, just art takes time to get right.
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That's. That's so nice. Like, 10 years for that one movie.
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Oh, yeah, it was labor of Love. That one man almost killed me.
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Which one was that?
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It was a movie called Conviction. It came out in 2010, and it was. It was a. It's an amazing story, a true story I had heard. One day in 2001, my wife was watching the Today show, and she said, tony, come here. You got to hear this story. And it was a story about this guy who had just been released from prison after 18 and a half years for a murder that he didn't commit.
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Oh, damn.
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And his sister got him out. His sister was the only person who believed in him and had not graduated high school. She was a single mom. And when he went in, she said, I'm going to get you out of here. And she went. Got her ged, went to college, went to law school, put herself through law school, raising two kids by herself, and ultimately got him exonerated. Found DNA evidence, and with the help of this amazing organization that I'm now very involved in, sit on the board of, called the Innocence Project, which, you know, defends people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes. So, yeah, with the help of the Innocence Project, got him out. So we made a movie about it, and it was a great story. And, yeah, Hilary Swank played the sister and Sam Rockwell played the brother.
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I've seen that movie.
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Oh, really?
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That's a great movie. Yeah.
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Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Right?
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Yeah. Wow.
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Yeah. So. And I just felt this, you know, a. I thought it was an amazing story about love and a brother, sister kind of love story and about adversity and about, you know, the cracks in our criminal justice system. So, yeah, and I felt this tremendous responsibility to Betty Ann Waters, who the story was about. I told her I would get it done, so I wasn't going to quit.
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B
It's wild. You took the words out of my mouth because I was going to segue into. Once you started talking about that, the Innocence Project that you're so heavily involved in. You know, for someone like you that's busy constantly with your career, it's important to also do things like this. How has it fulfilled you, though, like, in a sense of, like, man, this feels really good to really do something super impactful for people.
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For me, you know, when I first experienced the phenomenon, I always loved my job, loved being an actor. The work was always. I felt so lucky to do it. But the whole phenomenon of celebrity felt kind of fraudulent to me. You know, you get all this attention for a piece of work. I'm like, it's just my. I'm just doing my job. And so I was kind of uncomfortable with it. And then I discovered, oh, well, I could use this platform to shine a light on things that. That don't get enough attention. So that. Then I started looking like, well, how can I. How can I help? How can I be of service in that way? So with, you know, the. The. The actual differences that are being made are the people that dedicate their lives to this work, whether it's the Innocence Project or there's another organization called americares, which is an incredible organization that's a humanitarian relief organization that. That I work with. You know, they do the. They're the ones saving lives. Right. I'm helping to tell their story so that I use my, like, skills as a storyteller and my, you know, whatever profile I have at any given time to, you know, to get attention for the work that they're doing. So I don't pretend to be.
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Yeah.
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Changing lives in the way that they are, but it's really. It's a privilege to. To. To beat the drum for. For people who are.
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It's amazing, dude. Your humility, bro. Like, honestly, like, you. You're so humble about everything that you've done. Like, when you're. When you're talking about that, you say, I've always been very uncomfortable with the whole celebrity thing. There's a lot of people that take advantage of that. Advantage of that. And it's. You know, I love when you said, like, that's just my job. That's my art. It's what I do. And I. I look at people like that as well. You know, my wife does, too. She's like, it's their job. You know, they're people, too. Yeah, but a lot of people don't stay grounded, you know? And I know you come from a family of, you know, actors and producers and directors. Is that something that they instilled at you at an early age?
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So I think so. You know, the thing that my father and mother instilled, it's just that it's a. Which I've done with our kids, with Mary Jane, my wife and I with our kids, that's a. You know, it's a working profession. And my parents were really concerned that we would get that. We never be enamored of all the glitz and glamor, you know, the. The. What they thought was sort of the foolishness of it, but also it's. It's toxic. It's a hazardous thing. You know, you have to be very careful. It's like, you know, it plays into all the parts of ourselves that we need to be careful. You know, the ego gratification and things where we can get our heads blown up and it's just on. It's just. It's not. It's not a way to make you happy.
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Yeah.
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You know what I mean? In addition to being destructive to other people, it's not.
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Yeah.
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It's not a healthy way to live your life. So. Yeah, I mean, we all know people who have. I just know so many people who've allowed that to kind of drive the bus, and not one of them is a happy person.
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That's wild, man. Hey, guys, we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna slide into our recovery segment brought to you by therabody. What an amazing technology that therabody has. And it was founded on a really cool story by Dr. Jason Worsland. It was founded on pain. He got into an accident and had this extreme pain in his arm and found that percussive therapy really helped. So he created the very first version of the theragun with a makita drill just to pilot and test to see if his pain could be relieved by percussive therapy overall. And surely it was. So now birth to the theragun and now therabody, who has a multitude of products to help you recover emotionally and physically. And some of the products even help with stress, meditation and better sleep and just overall better wellness. And when I had Dr. J on the show earlier in 2025, it really spoke to me because his platform was founded out of. Out of physical pain, and the determined society was founded out of emotional pain. And so it felt natural for us to partner up. So here we are, an official partnership with therabody, and I want to talk to you about some of their products today that I've been enjoying that I think you need to understand and know more about so you could potentially implement them into your life. And I'm not going to get into a big deep dive of the actual science and everything like that. I'm just going to give you some Anecdotal information based on the products that I'm using and that my wife is actually using too, that is helping us out a great deal at home. Because the great thing about these products, guys, is you can use them anywhere. You can use them in the gym, you can use them at home, in your bed, in your living room. Hell, you can even drive with the Theragun Pro plus in your car and use it on your quads, use it on your arms, whatever that is. The first thing I want to talk about is the Theragun Pro Plus. I bring that in my gym bag every day to the gym, and when I'm warming up, I use it to warm up, I put it on my arms. Whatever body part I'm using that day, I activate those muscles. And what I find is I'm able to move my body a lot quicker and I'm a lot stronger on those days that I do actually bring it and utilize it. I just think it's a great way to understand your body and the connection between your strength and your muscles and being warm and being able to perform. Because it's one thing to go work out, but it's another thing to perform while you're doing it. And the Theragun Pro plus helps me do that. Another thing that I really, truly enjoy is the jet boots Pro plus. These things are wire free. There's no hassle, there's no cords, there's infrared LED light, there's that compression therapy. And I've been having bad pains in my ankles, both of them, actually, for about a year. And I don't understand where it's coming from. But when I started using the boots religiously after a leg day or after a cardio session, I throw those boots on and I find myself a lot looser afterwards. I find myself lighter, and then the next day, there's no pain in my lower extremity like my feet. The other thing that I really enjoy is that product really helps me recover a lot quicker. And let's face it, that's the most important thing when we're trying to move our bodies or we're trying to succeed in life, is we want quick recovery emotionally and physically. And these products help me do that, and they can help you do that as well. One of the other things that I really want to go into, because it's helping my wife out a ton with headaches and being able to distract from the noise in her mind, and honestly, it helps me with that too, is the smart goggles. Whenever we feel a slight headache coming on, or things are getting really heavy just in our minds just thinking about all the stressors, all the things out there that we can't control. We throw the goggles on, get in a quiet place, and there's. There's different cycles on there and different intensities of vibrations and massaging that you can either turn it up or turn it down. And what I really enjoy is it allows me to focus on what's going on with just me and I think about things. And the massaging with the smart goggles relieves either headaches and it relaxes me and relaxes my wife to a point where we can fall asleep better. We are preparing to kind of downshift and shut down and slow down for the evening. So I heavily recommend them. The other thing it's really good for is just creating a peaceful time in your day. And what I found since using the smart goggles and then the other products is it works for me, it works for my family, and I know it can work for you too. So I want you guys to think about things that you are struggling with. If it's lower back pain or you wake up in the morning, your neck is tight, I'm going to tell you, the theragun pro plus will help that out. They have cold therapy on it, hot therapy. I mean, think about that when I open that box and realize that I could have heat therapy and cold therapy and a theragun changed everything for me and also really made the thing that I hate doing the most is warmup. Made that very easy for me just by applying it to the muscle group that I'm going to use before I do it and in between sets, which promotes quicker recovery between sets. So if you're looking to go high volume or to lift heavy weights, I strongly consider that all these products are there to help you move along in your day with less pain and recover quicker. So go check it out because now, like I said, the official partnership has begun. And from now until the end of March, in your first order, you get 15% off your first order. Not every order. So if you're gonna buy some stuff, load up there in that cart for that first time and you get 15% off. Go to therabody.com and at checkout, the code is determined. So let me know how you guys like it. Until then, stay determined. You know, it's. There's nothing worse than meeting somebody that you hope is going to be cool and then they turn into complete opposites. Right? That's why I was just really Excited when I met you, because I don't know if I told you this, but, like, dude, I've watched every. Mostly everything that you're in for a lot of years, and you. You are one of my favorite actors.
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A
Oh, thanks.
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Straight up, dude. Like, when I told my wife I met you, and she goes, wait, are you serious? She goes, like, how was he? Was he nice? He's just such a kind human being. But, I mean, I. I probably watched Scandal season one through seven.
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A
Oh, really?
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B
Five times.
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A
Wow.
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Oh, no, dude, I love it. I've been watching it through again. My mom and I started it the other day.
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A
Yeah, it's so fun again.
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B
It's. It's. It's a great show, you know? So let's talk about that really quickly, because, you know, I'm really upset. Seven seasons. I. I was hoping that you guys would have a friends run, man.
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A
Yeah, right. No, Shonda wanted to. She knew when she wanted to end it, so good. She told us a year ahead of time. She was like, okay, Just so you know, guys, this is it.
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B
Wow.
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And it was. It was great. So it was very purposeful.
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Yeah.
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She didn't want to just keep it going. Just to keep it. Some shows were like, look, Grey's Anatomy first is still. They're going. But that show, that story, you know, she just wanted to keep telling ours had a definite end for.
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B
Yeah, it was. It was amazing work, man. It's just one of those shows that I think so many people can connect with. Not because of the setting, just about the story between you and Olivia Pope.
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Yeah.
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B
Just like you. You can't help who you fall in love with. Energy is energy. And it was just a beautiful story, man. Yeah, it was so good.
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A
It was great. And setting it like in the White House was just made the stakes super high, which makes it super fun to watch, you know?
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B
Yeah.
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And all the craziness. But that's Shonda's real. She's got such a gift, you know, writing about things that are just real human emotions, you know, stuff that we all can relate to, and yet putting it in a context that's kind of operatic, you know, and completely outrageous. And it was wild. Super fun.
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B
It was wild. The thing that I really liked about it, too, was most characters in that. In that show had a certain cadence to their speech.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It was really fast. It was really impactful. You comical and collected all the time. It was a complete contrast. I mean, you know, when you look at every character, like, even Cyrus Bean, you know, Millie as well, she would sometimes go really, really fast. And you were always just like separate from that. It was a cool contrast, but it was just, it just showed the genius of Shawna Rhimes.
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A
She had and that was super important to her from the very beginning. She said, there's going to be a pace to this show. Everyone has to talk extremely fast. She said, the only time this show slows down is when Fitz and Olivia are together. She said otherwise. And so for our first season, she was constantly sending us emails going, scandal, pace. You guys aren't talking fast enough. Faster, faster, faster, fast. So as a joker, if people would be hired to be guest stars on the show, they'd be like, warned, you better.
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B
You better talk fast.
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A
You better know your stuff and talk fast.
- [21:43]
B
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- [22:59]
C
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A
terms subject to change so it was a skill we had to develop, but I guess I was more yeah, I was calmer, but I still had to. I still had to talk pretty fast There were no. But then when me and Carrie got together, there were lots of pauses.
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B
And, you know, that's interesting you say that, because I knew that, but it never really registered. And then I'm going back to when you said it, how everything just slowed down. I'm going back to, like, season one.
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A
Season one. Like, the whole one minute thing. I don't know if you really like that. You would say one minute, and then we have silence. And Shonda would have literally silence for a minute of television. No one would do that. You know, if it's just sitting there together, if an audience has loved it. She's.
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B
She's.
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A
She's a genius.
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B
It was wild, man. I think my favorite. I don't want to say my favorite scene, but probably was like, if you're. My favorite moment that you guys had was in season one when she's like, you gotta go. You gotta get out of here. And you just said, one more minute, and you guys sat down on the couch.
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A
That was all like. And I'm in her house. Right?
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B
Yeah, you're.
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A
I love that scene.
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B
It was the.
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A
In her apartment.
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B
I mean, it was.
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A
But every time I watched very early on, it was maybe in the. Yeah.
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B
Season. I think it was episode two.
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A
It was episode two.
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B
Something like that. I think so. Yeah. See, I told you. I think I'm all over this, man. I watched it. It's crazy, but, like, the. The emotion behind it, right? Like the. The connection to you and Carrie as. It's. As actors and professionals that. That scene, to me, I saw it differently two days ago than I saw
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A
it 10 years ago.
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B
Yeah. Whatever it was. I mean, I don't know because I watch it so often. Right. But it's. It's literally my favorite show. So that. That whole moment was like, all right, one more minute. Let's just hold each other.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because it's over. And I could just see the pain.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, in both of you. And then it's just like, damn. Like, you look at that and it's like, yeah, it ain't over.
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A
Yeah, right. Exactly.
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B
But, yeah, that was. That was a really cool scene. What was your favorite moment? I mean, there's probably a ton of
- [25:30]
A
them, but I don't even remember. I mean, there was so many. The thing that comes back with that, for me, it was just the people, you know, that was just so. We were like. We still are. It was like a family that was created. So it was like your high school best. High school friends is sort of what it ended up being. Like, gosh, I honestly can't believe There were so many. There was a beautiful scene with the two of us on a bus. A bus. There was this episode about a campaign trail where you sort of flashback to their. How they met.
- [25:59]
B
Yeah.
- [26:01]
A
And I. I said something to her. I don't remember what it was exactly, but I sort of say to her, God, why didn't I meet you before? Like, if I. Well, how did this happen that I'm meeting you now? Yeah. And I'm already in a. I mean, what he was sort of saying was, I'm already in. In a marriage that I don't really want to be in. But, you know, and I thought it was really beautiful. But anyway, yeah, there was so many fun moments in seven years.
- [26:23]
B
And that's the thing, though. Like, that is such a hard topic to cover because. But it's so relatable. How many people in the world get into a marriage and then they meet somebody is like, dude, where were you eight years ago?
- [26:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:37]
B
You know, and. And I. I think that one of the biggest reasons why that show took off the way it did was, like, was for that reason. It's just very relatable.
- [26:47]
A
Yeah.
- [26:47]
B
And also, it's a little steamy.
- [26:48]
A
Right.
- [26:49]
B
This is the freaking Oval Office here.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah.
- [26:51]
B
Like, this is. This is kind of forbidden.
- [26:54]
A
And.
- [26:54]
B
But it was just. It was just those elements that just. It just punched everybody in the gut. It was so good.
- [26:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Kerry, the other day, I. I was in D.C. going down to watch the show down there, and I'm in my hotel, and the phone rings as Kerry go, hi, Carrie. And she said, tony, I just want to ask you a question. What was your favorite sex scene that we did in Scandal? I'm like, what? He says, Because I'm. She said, I'm doing a podcast. She was doing. She was on Daddy.
- [27:24]
B
Yeah. She was with Alex Cooper. Yeah, exactly.
- [27:26]
A
I had no idea. I'm like, well, I think it was this. She's here because I'm doing a podcast. Of course you are.
- [27:30]
B
Of course.
- [27:31]
A
And I was like, I'm here with Jane and the girls. You know, it was pretty funny that millions of people listen to this podcast. I think the thing went viral or something.
- [27:38]
B
Oh, of course it's funny, because Matt, he's like, dude, did you see this? I'm like, I don't know. Does he want to return the favor? Does he want to call her?
- [27:45]
A
Call Carrie?
- [27:47]
B
But no, it. It was. But. But that's the. That's the thing. Years later, and you mentioned. It's like, you know, high school. You guys are state. You guys are still connected. You can literally see it. Because I grew up in a world of sports, and once you're a teammate, you're a teammate for life. You may not get along 110 of the time, but when a push comes to shove, you're there for that person.
- [28:14]
A
That's right.
- [28:15]
B
And that's what I love to see in that moment with Kerry Washington calling you when she was on Call Her Daddy. Like, that was insane. Yeah, like, that was so cool. Yeah, like, it was a. It was silly as hell. Yeah, silly as hell. No, I saw the clip. It was. It was really good. Yeah, it was really good, man.
- [28:32]
A
Absolute. But anyway, yeah, no, it's. It's. It was great. It was a beautiful experience.
- [28:38]
B
Yeah, man. When you have a project like that that takes so much of you, right? And I would imagine seven seasons on one show, there's an emotional attachment. How do you break free from that when it's over?
- [28:54]
A
Well, I felt really lucky to be a bit older when that happened because I really appreciated it while it was happening. You can get. Sometimes success like that or when you're younger can really, you know, the stuff we were talking about before about your ego can get challenged or you just get an anxiety, it can create anxiety. Like, what do I do with all this energy coming at me? You know? Whereas when I. Since I was older, I just knew, like, man, just enjoy this ride because it's not going to last forever. And so by the. By the time it came to a close, a. We had a year to kind of process it because she told us ahead of time. And I. I found myself just super grateful that we'd had that time. And knowing having been through many cycles of life and ups and downs, not, you know, you, you, you know, you don't expect things to last. So, you know, things come to an end. And that's a beautiful thing, too. It's. It's sad. So, yeah, it was. It was a beautiful ending, man. I was like, I have this video I made of the last shot of Scandal that we made. And, yeah, it was awesome. So we all. We all put in. We have all stayed friends, so we have like a text chain that's always popping out and we see each other, we try and do try and get together as much as we can. And those of us who live in the same cities, we're. We're all just close friends.
- [30:16]
B
That's really cool.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, it's great.
- [30:17]
B
You know, you mentioned at One point when you're just talking ups and downs, I want to, I really want to touch on that, because this show, the determined society, is built on discipline, grit and resilience. And we have to understand that when moments get really hard, that is not the time to pull back. It may hurt emotionally, but you can't break your word to yourself. You have to keep pushing in your career. I want you to walk through the audience. You don't have to give specifics, but people have this ridiculous notion that celebrities like actors and musicians, they don't have any adversity, they're good, they're rich. Debunk that for us, please, because there's a lot of struggle in what you do.
- [31:04]
A
Well, every successful person, you know, I used to obsessively read books about great people or successful people. And we have, from a distance, we see all the high points, the public successes, because of course, that's what we promote or that's what gets attention. And you think, oh, that would, that's that person's life. And when you, when you read the story of any successful person, it's basically a whole string of failures punctuated by a few successes along the way, you know, and, and they, and the commonality is that is tenacity and often like vision or something that just drives people, you know, so for me, You know, I, I started out with this desire to do this thing that I had no idea if I had the ability to do, but I knew I couldn't really not do it. So I, you know, and I, I've said this several times to people, but my, I had a brother in law who was a jazz musician who gave me some great advice when I was about 19. And he'd said, he said, tony either. He said, I was in your position when I was 19. And I told myself he'd come to New York and he was a prodigy musician. He had no idea if he could. He said, either If I commit 100% to this, I'll either get where I think I want to go, or it will lead me to something I don't even know about. But if I don't commit 100% to this thing, this goal, then I'll always be the person who said, oh man, maybe I could if I'd really stuck with it. He said, you don't want to be that guy.
- [32:36]
B
No, that's regret.
- [32:38]
A
And, and, and that honestly got me through so many tough times when it just wasn't happening. And I, and I thought, I just don't. I don't see where the walls just seemed so high. I was never gonna. And I was like, well, I committed, so I'm just gonna keep going. So. And then over the years, you know, when things I, I've made friends with, I don't even call it failure anymore. I used to consider it failure, but when things fall apart and don't come to fruition in the way that you imagine them, it's always disappointing and painful, but it doesn't invalidate them. And oftentimes, like we were talking about projects taking a long time. You know, sometimes you say, okay, I'm done with this one. But for me, I. If there's something about a project that I just don't want to let go of, I'll just keep at it.
- [33:35]
B
I love it.
- [33:36]
A
Just keep, keep at it. And I don't evaluate it on, on the terms of how am I doing. You know, when I was younger, I did, I'd be like, where am I in relation to my dream? You know, where am I in my relationship? To the top of Mount Everest. Am I, am I there yet?
- [33:50]
B
How far?
- [33:51]
A
How far is it? Am I there? Oh, God. I mean, you know, and then you're exhausted, you want to go back, go to sleep. It's an emotional drain and that you waste so much energy, you know, I would, I used to burn so much emotional energy.
- [34:04]
B
You did.
- [34:05]
A
Oh, my God. Freaking out about, like, why it wasn't happening for me, why I wasn't getting what I wanted, why I wasn't able to have the success that I thought I should have, or, you know, why it hadn't happened yet or that I wasn't on, like, it should have happened by this time or this thing should have happened or look, that person is getting that is doing that. And I, I, why aren't I there?
- [34:24]
B
All that stuff, you know, comparison thing,
- [34:26]
A
man, in comparison, you know, like the thief of joy. But now that I'm older, you know, for several years now, I've sort of, you know, it's been a while that I've been able to be more centered about it. And you learn that that, that just is just a completely ass backwards way of looking at anything. And so now it's like, look inward to the why of what you're doing and what it's like raising kids, man. It's like, are they grown yet? Are they grown yet? No, you don't look at it.
- [35:01]
B
No, slow down.
- [35:02]
A
Don't grow, don't grow. Like, I love you. I just want to be with you all the time. You're three years old, man thing that's happening. Insane. And sometimes you drive me crazy, and I'm like, but, you know, it's the same. So you wouldn't look at a child like that. Why do we look at ourselves like that? So. And, you know, and. And of course, we want our children to grow up and thrive and have happy lives, but we don't. Unless you're, you know, mentally unstable, you don't, you know, live in that space of, like, so how are you rating to how you're going to be when you're 25 or 30 years old?
- [35:34]
B
Oh, wow.
- [35:34]
A
You know, are you there yet, dude? Do you know what I mean? But we do that to ourselves.
- [35:39]
B
I've been there, though. Like, I've. I mean, my dad and I have fixed a lot of things in our relationship. I love him to death. Right? Talk for about an hour the other day, and a lot of it is him apologizing for moments like that.
- [35:52]
A
Wow.
- [35:53]
B
Yeah, right? Like, hey, if you don't play Major League baseball, what are you gonna do? You don't have any other skills, right?
- [36:00]
A
Was that your. You were a baseball player?
- [36:01]
B
Yeah, I was baseball. I played at lsu. I played.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. I forgot.
- [36:06]
B
I mean, you know, so it's. It's moments like that where I think parents are just really trying to prepare you. Like, hey, you need to have a backup plan or you need to have something that you're good at. You know, for me, I was just like, hey, I can talk to people. And they're like, yeah, you can't make any money doing that. Well, then we couldn't. But now, like, it just kind of worked out for me. Right? But as you're. As you're going through these, you know, when you're talking about the walls, right, they seem so high, or where am I in relation to the top of Mount Rushmore? Dude, I'm going through that right now. Like, it is hard for me still because, you know, I haven't matured to the point where I can just be like, okay, I'm just gonna stay in my process. I talk about it a lot, right? And I coach myself through it. And again, I'm not telling the audience that I don't practice what I preach, because I do. But it's a struggle. It's still hard for me. I'm still learning how to try to turn the noise of the top of the mountain off and just be here now and understand that this is the gift. Because if I try to Grow up too quickly, like you said. Then I'm gonna forget all this.
- [37:12]
A
Yeah, this is the gift. Don't miss it. Because that's the other thing, I guess, honestly that only because I've like, had a lot of things that didn't work out and then did work out, you know, like we were talking about the show Shay Joey, that took 10 years. So we're at Arena Stage in D.C. and the audiences are going insane. Like, they loved it was sold out, it got great reviews. You know, our final performance, like Miles has this big number in the middle of the show. They got, he got three standing ovations with this one number. Like the audience stood up cheering. They wouldn't stop. They sit down, they jump up again. Like, like that stuff doesn't happen very often. So it was, I was thrilled. It was so fun. But. But someone who just came to that is like, oh, you did that thing. Isn't that great? Like that, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the thing. Like, that's the thing. You're, you're. That's. That's what it's all about. I'm like, no, that was just like this amazing moment that happened. That was a reflection of the fact that we've worked our asses on this for so many years. Isn't it great that we sort of now have found a formulation in a group of people where it. We had this moment that was beautiful.
- [38:22]
B
I love that. But it's not like, let's be honest, finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where most online therapy platforms fall short. I lost my grandma in 1997 to pancreatic cancer and the depression hit me so hard. She was everything to me. My best friend gone forever. I could have used Rula back then. Affordable and accessible mental health care shouldn't be out of reach, but too often it is. Have you used your insurance to cover your physical health? So why shouldn't it also cover your mental health? Rula makes sure it does. Rula partners with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. Rula also partners with a network of over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, helping you find the right fit based on your needs, preferences, and where you live. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.comtds to get started. That's R U L A.comtds. you deserve mental health that works for you. Not against your budget.
- [39:39]
C
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- [40:09]
A
You know, if I'd been thinking that was the goal the whole time, I would have quit years ago. Yeah, I would just, oh, we're not there now. I want the. I want the shiny penny or whatever it is. So that's all I. I mean, look, my dad and I had the same thing. You know, he, he, he. He said to me once, a story I've told before, but God bless him, I love him. He was my biggest cheerleader, but he had a lot of fear when I, as a parent, you know, when I said I wanted to be an actor and do this risky thing, you know, maybe you're dead, too. Like, being a professional athlete, I mean, that's like one of the odds of that.
- [40:47]
B
Yeah.
- [40:48]
A
Happening. It's like razor thin.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah.
- [40:51]
A
So I'm a lot older than you, but I was, like, in the late 70s when I was a teenager. Saturday Night Fever opened. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie. It was a classic. John Travolta made John Travolta the biggest star in the world. John Travolta was like, God, yeah, okay. With my dad, we walked by a poster of Saturday Night Fever, and he's like, you know, Tony, I'm really happy you have this passion, but you just need to understand if you're not John Travolta by the time you're 25, there's really no career.
- [41:20]
B
25. Hey, there's your end game, dude.
- [41:23]
A
Because maybe travolta was maybe 25. That. I don't know. But I was like. And I said to myself, I was like, that can't be right. That just can't be right. But it was hard to man, like, over the fort for several years. Several, you know, 10 years or whatever it was while I was starting out, my dad had a lot of anxiety. So he was, he was always like, you know, it's my. I could feel him feel like, this isn't Working out. This isn't working out. This isn't working out. Then when good stuff started to happen, he. He was super thrilled. But. But I. I learned it was his fear. You know, I was mad at him for a number of years about it, especially in those years. But then when we kind of. Kind of, I was like, no, he was just scared because he loved me. So then I. As a parent of adult children now, like, when they start. We're. At that point, it was really hard for me to not, like, it was so painful to watch them struggle and to watch them fail and fall in their face and, like, have a dream and work really hard for something and not get it and, you know, bang their heads against the wall to try the thing that they want to do. And I had to. I had to coach myself as a parent to not, like a. Want to rush in and solve it, not to do that thing of, like, well, maybe you should do something else. Maybe you should. You know, maybe you should cut your losses now. And whatever those impulses we have, I just don't want to see you suffer, which is all parents feel. So, you know. But I. I bit my tongue and I started to realize, oh, no, all of those trials are necessary, critical to their success. Do you know what I mean? Like, to see them bang and then they're like, smash into a brick wall, and it makes them turn, right. In a way that they didn't know they were. You know, they make a turn they never would have made if they hadn't have done that or bust through that wall. If it took them a hundred times hitting it, they busted through it. Or they turned and found a path that they never would have found if they hadn't gone through it. And they're tougher and smarter and more experienced, resilient because of whatever it is, you know. Oh, if they hadn't gone through that, they never would have done this. So I was like, oh, thank God. I didn't feel that I needed to, like, fix it or rush in there. So that was a big parenting lesson. So hard.
- [43:38]
B
Because, you know, we talk off camera. I have three kids. Mine are younger 12, nine, and seven.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, like, you're. I'm like, I'm in.
- [43:43]
B
I'm in the right now. Right. I'm like, middle school, you know, elementary. You know, my son's starting to play sports that, like, if you ain't good enough, you're cut. Right, Right. And so we went through those things this year with them, and. And. And automatically it's like, sometimes I just Want to run in and save his ass?
- [44:03]
A
Yeah.
- [44:03]
B
Because, I mean, I'm a high level, you know, athletic guy. Like, I coach. I coach for many years, and, you know, I see things differently. Right. And because of the work I do now on the show and. And I've grown. I know what it looks like. Like, just like with. With. With the. What just happened in D.C. that moment was not the moment.
- [44:23]
A
Right.
- [44:23]
B
That was the payoff for 10 years of pain. And that's what most people don't understand. And when I look at. I want to tell you a story. So my son tried out for the middle school soccer team, and when he was in rec ball, he dominated. Like, he's like, I'm. I'm just. He was doing the messy thing and like, all this kind of stuff. I'm like, this is freaking wreck ball, dude. I didn't say that. Always pump him up, right?
- [44:45]
A
Yeah.
- [44:45]
B
Like, in my. My comment, whether he plays great or. Absolutely dog. I go, I enjoyed watching you play, but I did that. I didn't. Did you have fun? Did you do your best? It's it. That's all I want to know. If you answer no to, did you do your best? That's on you.
- [45:03]
A
Yeah.
- [45:04]
B
Not about. It's not about the goals. It's not about the. How many hits you get in a baseball game. I could care less. But my point is the opportunities as a parent that you get to really check yourself. Right? Because there's something that, like you said, there was a little of your dad in you, right? You're like, you wanted to rush in. You wanted to say, hey, well, I want to help. You got to let him struggle a little bit. But he comes home after the first day of soccer trials and he was bummed. He's like, I'm going to get cut. I said, well, if you think that, then you probably will. I said, because what you don't understand, you got 66.67% left of your trial. You got two more days left. So what are you gonna do tomorrow to show the coach that you wanna learn? What are you gonna do tomorrow to work hard, no matter how you feel emotionally at that time? Cause, see, that's the key, son. It was a better day. Then the next day he comes home. It was better. He goes, dad, I don't know if I'm gonna make the team, but I'm okay. I'm like, explain that to me. I'm okay with the outcome because I did do the best that I could. I was like, you're the only One that knows that, and I have to trust that you're correct. And so we get an email later that night, midnight. I woke up to go to the bathroom. I'm not that young, Tony. Okay? I'm almost 48. All right? So I'm getting up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom now. And one of my biggest flaws is I will look at my email. But something told me that. And I like, you have to look at your personal email, not your business email. So I look at my personal email, and it was the soccer coach announcing that whoever's on this email, you made, your son made the team.
- [46:44]
A
Oh, that's great.
- [46:45]
B
He made the middle school soccer team. He wasn't a starter, you know, but, dude, they won the championship. Undefeated. No, they lost one game. I apologize. But he. He plays it and did his role, learned, got better and won a championship.
- [47:03]
A
I've never.
- [47:04]
B
Dude, I've played a lot of sports. I have never won an actual championship. I've won an SEC west championship. We lost the SEC Championship game my senior year. We got beat up in the College World Series. Two games and we were out. So, like, I've never won the last game of my season. And we remember taking him to dinner and we went to this Mexican food place and I said, hey, man, I just want to let you know how proud I am of you. It's like, yeah, we did it. I'm like. I was like, dude, I'm so proud of where you started and where you got to. But most importantly, to your point. Yes. You. You won the last game of your season. I've never done that. He looked at me. What are you talking about?
- [47:47]
A
Yeah.
- [47:47]
B
I was like, I never won a championship. He's like, dad, you went to lsu. I go, we didn't win a championship when I was there, man. So you've done something that I've never done. I don't know what it feels like to be right. Wow. Like, I'm getting like just thinking about that, right? It's like my. My 12 year old had an experience that I didn't. And no matter what the route was, the end, the end goal was attained, achieved for that team. But everything here, the pain of tryouts, the getting one minute a game until the third to last game, gets his first goal. Like there's the gift.
- [48:25]
A
Yeah, right.
- [48:26]
B
Like the moments here. So like every time we think about these walls being so high and where are we going? It's so hard to get off that mindset because it can truly tear us down. Yeah, we have to understand that. Let's be here now.
- [48:42]
A
It takes years. I mean, you know, it's. It's a lifelong process because, I mean, I remember having this. My first big break was the movie Ghost, right? So I bit up to that time, like, working my ass off. Struggling, you know, working, but always feeling like an unemployed actor. I. I showed up for my very first day of rehearsal on Ghost, and I. I couldn't believe that I had this big part in this big movie. And I pull onto the lot of Paramount Studios and there was a parking space with my name on it.
- [49:17]
B
Whoa. What?
- [49:18]
A
And I walk to the stage, and I. And I'm walking to the stage where we have our first rehearsal. I remember, but it was Demi Moore and me at this rehearsal, and I was like. I saw the. This stage 19 as it was. And I turned around and I looked at a building behind me, and I saw this stairway going up. And I remembered a building, like, three months ago. I had been auditioning for some crap pilot, sitcom pilot, and they had made all the. Like, made me wait over an hour for my. You know, for my reading. And they didn't even have any chairs for the actors. I remember all these actors sitting in the hallway on the floor for like, an hour or more while this casting director was, you know, it was, like, very dehumanizing feeling, like, we're never gonna get this. And I walked it. Finally, it was my turn. I go in. It was hot. I go in to the. To the thing. And the woman behind the desk was the casting director who was reading the scene with me, didn't even look at me. I come in. She's like. I said, yeah, Tony Goldwyn. Yeah, honey, sit down. Okay, the other side. Yeah, read. And she read this thing with me. Didn't look at me. Once I read my scene, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm done. And I left, like, so depressed. And that feeling of, like, these walls are so high, I'll never, ever smile. So there I was three months later, walking. It's my first rehearsal for this movie, and I look back and I see that. And I was like, never forget this moment. Because that was the feeling I had, was. I remembered how those walls just seemed impenetrably high. And then here I was, like, way beyond whatever the hell that pilot was probably never was. I'm sure it never even became a TV series. And now I was in a big mood. Like, I was like, oh, okay. Never forget this moment. But the other thing I wanted to share was, you know, Many years later or over the years, I, I would, it took me a lot for. I would often do that thing of like constantly comparing, okay, so where am I to where I think I need to be or with the barometers of success that we hold for ourselves. So any project that I was in, like, how's it doing? How's it doing? How's the, how are the reviews? What do people think? How are we comparing? What, you know, all that stuff. And I go, oh, I know I'm not supposed to care about that, but I really do. I really do, you know, so. And it was, it would all create this tension to me.
- [51:41]
B
Yeah.
- [51:41]
A
And, and when I became a film director, so I directed a couple of movies and the first movie I did, did very, very well. So I got a lot of attention. I got a lot of attention for it. It was great. It was very personal thing. It was very organic the way that it happened. It was beautiful, beautiful experience. The second one was more of like a studio movie and was the one where they were like, you know, giving me really commercial. Okay. So I do this and I just always try to keep my head level. But it did not do well.
- [52:14]
B
Okay.
- [52:15]
A
And I remember like, and it was not, honestly wasn't. I was not. It wasn't, didn't turn out that great. I don't think it was fine.
- [52:22]
B
But it wasn't.
- [52:22]
A
It's a movie. It was called Someone like you. It was a romantic comedy with.
- [52:26]
B
I know that one.
- [52:26]
A
Ashley Judd and Hugh Jackman and Greg. It was great cast. Marissa Tomei and that was a good movie. I'm sure it was like. I'm sure it's perfectly good, but it's not, it was, it was fairly generic.
- [52:36]
B
Okay, gotcha.
- [52:36]
A
You know, it's like a run of the mill rom com. People seem to love it, but for me, you know, critics were kind of dismissive of it and, and I think it did okay at the box office. But it wasn't like people were like, yeah, you're the new whatever, it's going to be this huge hit. And it was not. And I, I really, I took it so hard. It shocked me. It was like I got really depressed after it and I wasn't, that wasn't a project. I was hired to do this and, but I, I over and I don't know, I just, it was, it was very, very painful to go through the failure. Having had a big success my first time out as a director and everybody oohing and ahhing over me and now people are like, oh, I guess. I guess that was a one. One and done. Who knows? That's what I thought.
- [53:22]
B
Right. No, that's the story you're making up, right?
- [53:24]
A
I'm making it my.
- [53:25]
B
Yeah, you're thinking, like, okay, I'm a Vanilla Ice here.
- [53:29]
A
Yeah, we completely create all this crap.
- [53:31]
B
Yeah.
- [53:32]
A
So then the next film I did was the one I told you about, conviction, that took 10 years to make. No, no, no. I did one other one between them, so I did one a couple years later. And then when I made the film conviction, I was 10 years older than that. I'd worked so hard to get that movie made. And we did it, and I made it. And the woman whose story was Betty Ann Waters was thrilled with was a great thing for the Innocence Project. Whatever failings the movie may have had. I felt like we made the movie I wanted to make. We did that. We made that thing. And when it came out, it was all. Again, a lot of hoopla. People go, oh, this is gonna be huge. Oscars. It's gonna be incredible. It's gonna be the one. And I was a little skeptical. Okay, just chill.
- [54:21]
B
Yeah.
- [54:21]
A
Let me just. Hold on. And it didn't really perform at the box office. So the studio, after, like, six weeks in the theaters, they were like, we're stopping spending money on this because it wasn't performing for them. So it just. It ended. And I had no. Almost no negative reaction. It was kind of amazing. I was like, okay, I have no control over that. I did everything I could to try and get it out there. Maybe it's. Honestly, maybe it's flawed. Maybe there's things that didn't work. I don't know. In my opinion. I know I made the thing that was in my heart to make, and we had this incredible experience doing it, and I fought like hell, almost died to get this thing made. And we did that. I'm not gonna let. Like, what's happening today. I'm gonna let it invalidate all of that. Really?
- [55:11]
B
That's powerful, man.
- [55:12]
A
That would be insane. Like, why would I do that?
- [55:14]
B
Yeah.
- [55:14]
A
And it was a huge lesson for me. And I was. And I was cool with it, you know? And I. You know my friend Sam Rockwell, who was in and gave this brilliant performance. And Sam. Everyone was telling, oh, Sam, you're gonna get an Oscar. Right? And they. And they were, you know, pumping him up. And it was hard for him because he was hearing all that. And I called him. I was like, man, you're so incredible. And he was like, I started to believe I Started to believe it and it was really hard. I started to, like, buy into that. And he's not like that at all. He's a great artist and a few years later he won an Oscar. So he's okay at the end of the day, I'm just saying, you know, it was like, anybody can fall prey to this. So that was a real lesson to me that I've tried to hang on to because it's. It just made. It made me enjoy my work and life so much more. You know, I realized to what degree I was allowing those. Those. That. That comparison thing and the having your eye on the summit all the time to completely just, you know, invalidate these amazing experiences that we.
- [56:17]
B
It's hard. Like, very, very freaking hard.
- [56:20]
A
Yeah.
- [56:21]
B
You know, and. And it's like the one thing that I want the audience to take away from. From that is, you know, we don't know when things are going to hit. We don't know for sure.
- [56:33]
A
Nope.
- [56:33]
B
And you're going to go through loss and it's going to be painful. We lost a multi million dollar deal last two weeks ago.
- [56:39]
A
Oh, did you?
- [56:39]
B
And I thought my world was done. And then I realized I was being a little about it.
- [56:44]
A
Yeah.
- [56:44]
B
I'm like, dude, I don't know.
- [56:45]
A
Yeah.
- [56:46]
B
Like, what am I?
- [56:47]
A
This.
- [56:47]
B
This could be a saving grace.
- [56:49]
A
Right.
- [56:50]
B
Maybe. Maybe God saved me from something. It's like. And then I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, Tony.
- [56:56]
A
Right.
- [56:58]
B
Something could hit tomorrow and it could change everything.
- [57:02]
A
Yeah.
- [57:02]
B
And then all of a sudden you're a little bit higher up the wall. Right. But I think. And my wife gets on me about this all the time. Isn't it's great to have a good
- [57:10]
A
woman in your house? Oh, man.
- [57:11]
B
I mean, you know, you've been married to your wife since 1987.
- [57:14]
A
Yeah.
- [57:15]
B
You know, and when I look at my wife, Jackie, it's a, you know, she says, just enjoy where you're at right now. Because if you think it's going to be the end, you're going to attract that. You're going to attract more of that.
- [57:26]
A
That's also true.
- [57:27]
B
That's very true.
- [57:28]
A
That is very true.
- [57:29]
B
But the end game is like when. When something hits and I'm able to take my breath and she goes, see? Was it worth that? And the answer a hundred percent of the time is no.
- [57:42]
A
Yeah.
- [57:42]
B
Like, let's just be where we're at.
- [57:44]
A
It's hard, too. I mean, look, it's. It's great to be ambitious, to be passionate to have drive. Those are all great qualities. And it's an expression of passion. And you can't. You can't make things happen. You can't build things if you don't have that.
- [58:01]
B
Yeah.
- [58:01]
A
But when you do have that, it means you care a lot. Yeah. So you're risking disappointment and pain, heartache.
- [58:08]
B
You are.
- [58:08]
A
It just is. So you're like, all right, that's part of the. That's part of the. It's part of the deal, man.
- [58:13]
B
And we're competitors.
- [58:14]
A
Yeah.
- [58:15]
B
I mean, exactly. You're not in your industry. I'm not in my industry. If we're not. If we're not fierce competitive, I'm here. I'm here to win.
- [58:22]
A
Yeah.
- [58:23]
B
You know, I'm not at your expense, but I'm here to beat you.
- [58:26]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [58:27]
B
Like, straight up. Like, that's. That's what I'm here to do. And when I look at everything that we've gone through with the determined society and the growth patterns and the doubting from people, like, when I started it, dude, people made fun of me, like, oh, hell yeah.
- [58:42]
A
About what?
- [58:43]
B
Just about, like, what are you doing, dude? What? You'll be Tony Robbins. What are you doing, man? Like, how's your little podcast? Sitting here with Tony Goldman. Like, it worked out, like, because I kept going, you know, but I. But I think when. When people look at, you know, things like building something, it. You want to compete, but you all. And there's numbers and you now, too. We're going to get to this. I want to be respectful of your time, but I want to. I do want to get to the new thing you started with your daughter.
- [59:14]
A
Yeah.
- [59:15]
B
Because that is heavily driven by analytics. It's like. Like, how big of muscles do I have, man? Like, where am I at today in this podcast industry is like that. Right. But, you know, to. To constantly worry and not move forward because of what people may think is truly concerning, because a lot of people will pull back. And like I mentioned, man, when I look at everything that we've been through on this show, let's be honest, finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance, that's where most online therapy platforms fall short. I lost my grandma in 1997 to pancreatic cancer, and the depression hit me so hard. She was everything to me. My best friend gone forever. I could have used Rula back then. Affordable and accessible mental health care shouldn't be out of reach, but too often, it is. Have you used your insurance to cover your physical health? So why shouldn't it also cover your mental health? RULA makes sure it does. RULA partners with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. Rula also partners with a network of over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, helping you find the right fit based on your needs, preferences, and where you live. Thousands of people are already using RULA to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.comtds to get started. That's R U L A.comtds you deserve mental health that works for you, not against your budget.
- [60:56]
C
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- [61:26]
B
it and there was times where I'd look at my wife and go, I don't know how much I have left.
- [61:31]
A
Yeah.
- [61:31]
B
And she goes, you got a lot more left in you. What's the brand? I said, determination, discipline, resilience. So that's who you are. So, yeah, I know. I'm just talking shit. I'm just like, I'm just tired. I'm just tired. And I think it's okay to be tired. I think it's okay. In moments like you've had in your career and moments that I've had in building the show, it's okay to think about, like, I'm done. I'm gonna quit.
- [61:55]
A
Yeah.
- [61:56]
C
But.
- [61:56]
B
Because I don't think people really understand, you know, how powerful those moments are because you're able to be. You're able to reflect a little bit and be like, okay, I'll just.
- [62:06]
A
You get to your. Why? Like, I had that. I've had it several times. I. I do that all the time. Someone's like, you know, I want to do this. I'm done. I don't need to do this. And then I'll go. Then. That frees me up to go, oh, but I want to.
- [62:20]
B
Yeah. Because it's in me.
- [62:22]
A
You know, like the first time I directed a film, this movie, A Walk on the Moon, which was like 25 years ago. I remember being on Set. And it was so. The pressure was so enormous. Like, I just had not experienced, like, all this money it cost to make it. And all these people breathing down your neck about, are you on time? And the budget and all this stuff. You're just trying to, you know, create this thing. And. And these producers were giving me. And. And. And I was really. And I. I had to take a walk. This one guy was like, on my ass about where we were in the day and my schedule, you know, it was behind schedule, whatever it was. And I, like, I got up and I went for a walk, and I was like, I don't have to do this, right? Yes. I'm in the middle of this whole thing. I chose to do this. I don't have to do this. I could literally, I can. For me personally, I can make a living as an actor. I can go back just being an actor and make a fine living. It was all good. I do not have to do this. They can if I want. I can say, you know what? You guys direct this movie. I'm out.
- [63:24]
B
See ya. Yeah.
- [63:26]
A
And I was like, yes, I could do that. And when I once I was like, I could just throw in the towel, then I was like, oh, but I don't want to. I really want to do this and screw them, like. And I went back and I was like, shut up. This is what we're doing. I found that a very. The thing of going, maybe I'm done is. Is. Is can be also powerful.
- [63:46]
B
I think it's very. Because you're able to uncover certain things, right? And I've had many points like you're talking about. It's like, wait a second. This is what I love doing. Like, I love doing this. This is not, you know, I think it's all a matter of, like, you. You've mentioned the why, you know, or purpose or what the burn really is of why you do something. I think for a lot of people in. In, I could say our industry now, because you have a pod, is they see people ascending to a certain level of social media fame, and they think, well, I can do that too. And it'd be nice to, you know, be bothered by the public and, you know, say, oh, I know who you are. You're the person that has this show.
- [64:28]
A
Right?
- [64:28]
B
But they don't realize it doesn't happen like that very often, you know, and the. The problem is, when you get into it, out of this vanity aspect of, like, I just want to be known and I want to be seen. If that were my case, I would have been done five years ago, like maybe three months after I started.
- [64:45]
A
Yeah.
- [64:46]
B
But for me it's this deep rooted sense of purpose. It's like I truly feel that someone's going to listen to our interview and they're going to listen to the words that you say and it's going to change their life. And that's what we're here to do.
- [64:58]
A
Yeah, it's for hope. Yeah.
- [65:00]
B
Like, no one ever said this shit was going to be easy. And I'm talking about life.
- [65:08]
A
It's hard and it's not supposed to be. Like, it's, it's no good if it's easy. Yeah, it's not good.
- [65:13]
B
But we, but they, but we want it to be right because we, because it's pretty comfortable.
- [65:17]
A
Yeah, but then, but, but then to make friends with the discomfort so that you're, it's like being an athlete, you know, if you're not feeling the pain, like you're doing something wrong, like you're not, you know, and then you're like, okay, well that's just what it, that's what it is. My daughter was a, my wife and my, my eldest daughter were rowers and my knife works like a champ, national champion in college. And then Anna was a D1 rower at UCLA. And so that sport is painful, man. And you know, when I listen to her talk about the training that they had to do way more than anything I ever did, it was just making friends with the pain, you know, because they like to win and they like the, the, all the things that came with the teamwork and the bond and all the, you know, the challenge and all of that, but the, the discomfort of it, you know, you can't do that sport, I mean any sport on a high level and not. So what, what keeps you in it? What is that thing, you know, that constantly trying to get better or. Absolutely. I mean, everything, every day I go
- [66:22]
B
to work,
- [66:25]
A
when I say like the what. Why am I here? What am I grateful for to be here? It's always like, oh, how can I get better? How can I do this better? How can we make this. What else can we do here that's hasn't that we haven't done? Or that can be more interesting. It's never, oh, someone's going to come up to me on the street and tell me how great I am or I'm going to get a great review. Someone's going to write something nice about me. Those are pleasant moment, like that's pleasant. If someone says, hey man, love Love what you did. Like, how many jobs can you have? What is that? That's really nice, but isn't. To me. It has nothing to do with the work itself.
- [67:05]
B
Yeah.
- [67:05]
A
That. That was also a period of the separation. A distinction I learned well along the way was those. That validation has. Is a completely separate thing from the work itself.
- [67:18]
B
Yep.
- [67:19]
A
It's not. It's positive, and it's a bummer if somebody hates it. You're like, oh, that's too bad.
- [67:23]
B
Yeah.
- [67:24]
A
But it doesn't. It doesn't. I know what I'm doing. I know what. Like, I'm. I'm doing my thing here some. You know what I mean? The reaction. It's super nice and exciting when you get, like, the hoopla or something really works out or you make a ton of money or whatever it is. That's great. But do you know what I'm saying?
- [67:43]
B
I'm just listening.
- [67:44]
A
Separating it out from the process itself is, like, completely. I feel it's completely. And the way I evaluate it, I may be doing something, and I'm like, that's not good enough. Someone else may come and go. I love that. Like, thank you. I'm glad you do. Yeah, I don't. So I got to keep working on it or something I think is amazing. And someone's, like, dismissive of it. It's like, too bad you don't like it. I love it. Sorry.
- [68:08]
B
Yeah. But no, you said the word process, man. Like, that. That word right there is so powerful, and people overlook it all the time. You have to have a plan, you know, and you have to understand not just what you need to do in order to get to that point, the top of the Mount Rushmore, but you got to think about who I need to become. Like, what does that person do every day? Do they sleep in? Do they break their word to themselves? Or do they follow through on every freaking thing that they say they're going to do? And if you can do that, just like you said, you might hit a wall, and it might take you right to somewhere where you don't even know it's. What's over there. But it could be the thing.
- [68:46]
A
Yeah.
- [68:46]
B
Because you stayed in your process. I just think it's super important for people to understand that real quickly. You know? Let's talk about the pod. It's with Anna, right? Yeah.
- [68:55]
A
My daughter.
- [68:55]
B
Yeah. Yeah. You guys are.
- [68:57]
A
We have this. So I can't remember if we even talked about it yet, but. So I think you mentioned it. Like, I'm the third generation of People in show business in my family, and my daughters are the fourth. Um, so Ann and I got really interested. We were joking about the whole Nepo baby thing, and she was actually gonna do something with her cousin, like a comedy podcast about Nepo babies. Cause she's a. She's a television writer. Right. And a screenwriter. So. But we started talking about it seriously and we were like, you know, we love the fact that we can talk about whether we're in the same business. Like, it's a real unique thing that we share. And ultimately, even though my dad had a lot of trepidation at the beginning, it ended up being a very important part of our relationship that we had this intimacy that we shared. We had the. Shared a passion for this business. So we thought, wouldn't it be cool to do a podcast where we talk to other parents and children who work in the same business and find out what their relationships are like?
- [69:52]
B
So cool.
- [69:53]
A
So we call it Far from the Tree. And we launched in September, I think, and we've done, I guess, 24, 25 episodes now. But we've interviewed actors like, we started with Jane Fonda and her son Troy Garrity, who's a wonderful actor. We've done a lot of athletes. So we just had a great episode with Sarah Strong and her mom, Alison Feaster. Sarah's the star of UConn women's basketball. Whoever's having a right in the thick of it at the moment. Yes. And her mom, Allison, was a WNBA player and played collegiately for Stanford and now works for the Celtics. And they're these two amazing women. We did also in sports, we've interviewed coach Vic Schaefer, who's the head coach of the University of Texas women's basketball team, and his daughter is his assistant coach.
- [70:40]
B
Oh, my God, that's interesting.
- [70:42]
A
And we talk about their relationship and that was awesome. But other. Lots of actors and musicians and people in business. And today we just had this. We recorded this amazing episode with these two women who live are activists in Louisiana, in St. James Parish, Louisiana. They live in this place called Cancer Alley, which is a 75 mile stretch of chemical and plastic plants that are the highest cancer rate maybe in the world.
- [71:14]
B
Wow.
- [71:15]
A
And Sharon, the mom in 2018 said, this has got to stop. And she had a call in from God and she said, I'm going to do something with this. And she started this organization called Rise and Within. You know, I think she's was named on the Times 100 list of most influential people in 2020, like three or four years later.
- [71:36]
B
So cool.
- [71:37]
A
And it's become this big, and they've really shut down plants and they've, you know, then. So. And her daughter works on, you know, took on this mantle with her, and they're activists together, and so talking to people who have a shared passion. So that's what we. That's what we do. And we have these amazing conversations. Sometimes we'll do it, whether we do one with our family. We do one with Jane, my wife, and we did one with our daughter, Tana's sister, Tess. And sometimes we just talk to each other, but mainly we have these amazing, accomplished guests.
- [72:03]
B
I'm looking forward to that one coming out because that is generational change. Like, that's massive, dude. Holy shit. That one hits hard. Yeah, that one hits hard. That's going to change lives.
- [72:15]
A
Yeah, though these two. That's amazing. Yeah.
- [72:17]
B
Yeah.
- [72:18]
A
So, yeah, it's been really cool and just getting to do this with my kid. Like, we had the best time. I literally, you know, try and find things that. To give us a reason to. To be together, to do. She lives in la and I'm here and I'm in New York. And so, yeah, it was really just like, let's do a project together.
- [72:36]
B
That's so cool, man. I love the fact that you make fun of the Nepo baby thing. Like, I don't really believe in that, because if you weren't as good as you are, and if, you know, I mean, you can look at LeBron James and Ron.
- [72:47]
A
Oh, my God, look at that.
- [72:48]
B
I mean. I mean, yeah, he might be there because of it, but I mean, to. To stay there is up to him.
- [72:54]
A
Dude, it's gotta have game.
- [72:55]
B
You gotta have game and you have game. So you're not a Nepo baby, man. You had. You had opportunities. Yeah.
- [72:59]
A
And you made the best out of it. Absolutely. And the other thing that makes me laugh is, like, if you were a plumber, you'd go, well, of course you're a plumber. Your dad was a plumber. Like, you took over the family plumbing business. Or if you're a doctor and your father or mother were doctors, well, then of course you're a doctor. So somehow in. I don't know, in. In other parts of our culture, it's sudden somehow. It's like this. It's taken on this negative thing, which is not why we're doing it. But that's just amusing to me.
- [73:26]
B
Yeah.
- [73:27]
A
And especially because I've found to be such a privilege to have.
- [73:30]
B
Yeah.
- [73:30]
A
To have that.
- [73:31]
B
I. I think it boils down to one thing, man. It's all good as long as you're not doing astronomically better than somebody. And it. Once you do and it's so high profile, they're like nepo, baby.
- [73:41]
A
Oh, maybe that's what it is. Yeah.
- [73:42]
B
If you're a plumber, like someone's gonna give a shit.
- [73:45]
A
That's right.
- [73:45]
B
It's like, you know, like. And so that's just. That's just how I feel about it. You know. One day I think my kids will take over this.
- [73:53]
A
Yeah.
- [73:53]
B
Because I. I think it's gonna be my girls specifically. I think it's gonna be my seven year old. And. And Matt probably knows because, you know, he's very close to my family too. And Mia is just a little.
- [74:05]
A
Be a media empire by then.
- [74:07]
B
It will be. There'll be a. There'll be a show for all three of them.
- [74:10]
A
Don't look to the top of Everest. But I'm telling you, man.
- [74:12]
B
I know. Seriously, it's.
- [74:13]
A
It's just know that it's there.
- [74:14]
B
It's a guilty pleasure of mine.
- [74:16]
A
It's just there. It's just hard sitting up there and
- [74:18]
B
you know, you know, I. I believe, I believe that whatever we put out and then we enthusiast. Enthusiastically act upon. That's what happens. That. That eventually comes to pass in your life.
- [74:31]
A
100%.
- [74:31]
B
But we. You have to be aligned and you have to work your tail off, man. And that's just the one thing that you've done. That's the one thing that I've done. Anybody with any amount of significant success to get even a quarter way up that damn mountain, you better work.
- [74:48]
A
It's just a work. That's been the freeing thing for me is it's not magic. It's just like. And you don't have to like kill yourself. You just need to keep. Keep at it. Keep. Just have a work ethic and be like a therapist that I want to say he was like, have a workman. Just a task. Task oriented mentality.
- [75:06]
B
Yep.
- [75:06]
A
A workman like thing like, oh, okay, what's. Now what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? We just keep. Keep at it. And then there are moments of, of elation. Like wow. Yeah, that was. That's sometimes really exciting. But a lot of times it feels like drudgery or. Yeah. But just do it like training, you know.
- [75:25]
B
For me it's the chase. Right. So like not the chase. It's. It's a bad way to put it. But like when, when in our business and like you know, like when you, when you have a really interesting guest that's about to come on, you get excited about it. Right. Don't you? So it's like when you have that and then you're going through the whole scheduling thing and you're, you're back and forth with pr and then all of a sudden it hits, you're like, oh, right. Like that's the moment. But when the cameras are on, that's game time. Yeah, right. And then you look back at it, at the finished product, and you're so grateful for how it turned out. But I know for me, like, when I look back at this interview, I'm going to go back in my mind, I'm going to go back to D.C. it's like being in the right place at the right time because I decided to show up.
- [76:09]
A
Right, Right, right, right. Yeah.
- [76:10]
B
Right?
- [76:11]
A
Yeah.
- [76:11]
B
I mean, I mean, how many people would sit there in that room and be afraid to come up to see.
- [76:16]
A
Right?
- [76:16]
B
Come up to you.
- [76:17]
A
Yeah.
- [76:17]
B
I'm like, not, man, to hell with that. Like, I'm going to say, what's up?
- [76:20]
A
Yeah.
- [76:20]
B
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- [77:42]
C
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- [78:12]
B
Success is so cool because it leaves the breadcrumbs to what actually got you there, you know, and it's just doing the work, you know. And I. And my definition of determination is this. It's simple. Doing what you said you were going to do long after the emotion wears off. So you can. And it's quiet. I used to think early on, I used to think that it was this roaring thunder, look at me, hustle culture, I'm going to bury you type shit. It's not some days, it's you taking your shoes on and off 10 times before you actually walk out of the door and get to the gym.
- [78:46]
A
That's right.
- [78:47]
B
It's quiet.
- [78:47]
A
Yeah. No, that's sort of what I was saying before.
- [78:49]
B
Yeah.
- [78:50]
A
About the task oriented thing. Because also the, the hard charging thing, aside from being exhausting, that's that that can become overwhelming. Like, because also when you'll. Like sometimes when I have a lot going on and I'm like, I got to be doing this, I got to be doing that. I got. And it can be quite overwhelming. Like I'm never going to be. Or I'm never going to be able to work hard enough to get to whatever it is. And you just go quiet. Like, I'm not do that much. Just gotta do one little thing. Just gotta, you know, and maybe, maybe. Or punishing yourself. I didn't get to the gym. It's like, no, may I have to go take my shoes off 10 times. That's what's happening today. Yeah. You know, the other day, I just don't have my together today. So I. But I'm gonna go. Yeah, I'm gonna get there.
- [79:33]
B
And once you get there, you struggle through the first set.
- [79:36]
A
Yeah.
- [79:37]
B
Get some water. You wait a minute, wait two minutes because you're not. You don't really want to do it.
- [79:41]
A
Right.
- [79:42]
B
But somehow something's magic about the second and third set.
- [79:44]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [79:45]
B
You're in a flow state now.
- [79:46]
A
That's it.
- [79:47]
B
You're. I'm all right. I'm here. I'm gonna get my effort.
- [79:49]
A
Yeah.
- [79:49]
B
And what to your point is, is like task oriented. What that really is for me is like the way I equate that is, I just remove the emotion from the task. If I can remove the emotion from it, that's great. Right? And it's just like, this is what I said I was going to do.
- [80:04]
A
Yeah.
- [80:05]
B
My emotions don't fucking matter.
- [80:06]
A
Right.
- [80:07]
B
So if, you know, I had to make. I don't like the word had in the morning when I get to make breakfast for all three of my children and have my coffee while after the gym, while they're eating at the little island in the kitchen and I'm also standing up eating and talking to them. I would never emotionally shut down and not do that for them.
- [80:27]
A
Right.
- [80:28]
B
They're my children.
- [80:29]
A
Yeah.
- [80:29]
B
So it's like when I look at things in terms of, of doing the task, it's just like I'm, I'm not going to bring emotion to it now because there's other emotions going on.
- [80:41]
A
Right.
- [80:42]
B
Of wanting to be successful and wanting to, you know, overcome and wanting to be the face of this industry because I know if I can get there, then I'm helping more people with actual impactful conversations instead of, you know, but
- [80:54]
A
that's the result that will just happen as a result of the incremental stuff one day. But it's like, I mean, parenting, I found very much that like 90% of everything in life is showing up. 95. So like with kids, it. The things of a. What a beautiful thing. Those, you know, those making breakfast for your kids. I mean, I wish I would have those days back, you know, when I was doing that every day or you know, so. But I realized, you think, oh my God, parenting is so hard or there's gonna be this, these obstacles or what? How do I, you know, you think of the big swings like what am I gonna. And you realize that, no, actually it's just, just being present for the dumb stuff as much as you possibly can and you're not going to be able to do all of it. But that those little things where nothing really happens or no, do you know what I mean? Accrues to people, creating people who feel they have the solid foundation and just they know that you love them and they know they're just things that are never in question and you're always there. It's not like the big, oh, we had this amazing talk today and we, you know, we saw this big problem. Those aren't the things those happen, but those aren't the, the determinative things. So the same thing I find it's just like the little task oriented things that keep that, like, how do you get in shape. People ask me, like, how do you stay in shape? Like you're older and how do you. And I'm like, well, I just do it every day. Like, I don't have to go and hit a hard workout every day. I don't have time to do that. Sometimes I do. I really like to. But if I. If I do something every day, and then if I skip a day for whatever reason, okay, I skipped a day. But the next day I want to. You know, if I just do something every day, I've. I don't know. I've just. It. Then I'm on the road. And. And that's. That's everything.
- [82:48]
B
That's consistency and that's compounding interest, man.
- [82:50]
A
Compounding interest. That's what it is.
- [82:51]
B
Yeah. You know, it's not about these astronomical, you know, swings of, you know, getting in shape. It's like losing.
- [82:58]
A
I gotta lose £50 or what?
- [83:00]
B
No, no, just move.
- [83:01]
A
Yeah.
- [83:02]
B
Like, isn't that the win?
- [83:03]
A
Yeah, like.
- [83:03]
B
Like, move. Get on the process in the progress of that. That goal. And to not measure yourself every single day of. Out of shame. Because there was a long time where I could not get in shape. Let me explain. I could, but I wouldn't because I was shaming myself because I hated the way I look. Oh, you can't get anywhere like that. It has to be, again, taking the emotion out of it. Okay, I need to eat better. What does that mean? Okay, so then you don't eat, you know, the fast food all the time. You don't eat this. You don't, you know, you're not shoving cookies, you know, in your mouth at 9pm Right. Doing the thing and moving your body. And then all of a sudden, things start to happen.
- [83:42]
A
Yeah.
- [83:43]
B
You know, and it becomes not just something that you feel like is a chore to do, but it's. I get to go do this.
- [83:49]
A
Well, then it becomes a habit, because then. Then that's the thing about fitness, for example, is even just a little bit every. The regulator, then if I don't do it, my body's like, what? What?
- [83:59]
B
Yeah. What are you doing?
- [84:00]
A
You can't even eat healthy, you know, if you then eat crap, your body's like, all right, you just ate crabs.
- [84:07]
B
Then you're about to pass out.
- [84:08]
A
But it's not. But, you know, it's. Yeah, it's just giving yourself like this. Doing it in small bites is just fine. The other thing. Is that what we were talking about before the constant evaluation. I feel that we have to be very disciplined about that. But not allowing ourselves to be in constant evaluation. You know, once in a while. Yeah. We check ourselves in the mirror. Okay, yeah, I'll look the way I want to look. Leave that shit.
- [84:40]
B
Yeah.
- [84:40]
A
It's why I like social media gives me so much anxiety. Because I. I like. I do social media for, you know, it's part of our. What's part of our promotional system. That's what this is. What it's up. We have to. We do. It's. It's a useful tool and it can be fun, but I find it gives me tremendous anxiety, so I pretty much try and stay off it as much as I can or like. Because as soon as you start checking, wait, how many followers do I have? How many likes did I get?
- [85:07]
B
How did this do even get me fucking started?
- [85:08]
A
So once in a while, like, check it. You go, oh, yeah, that's nice. Okay. That's where I'm at. Fine. Yeah. And you either get a dopamine hit or you're like, oh, plumber. Yeah, well, but. But if you're doing that all the time as a habit, you.
- [85:22]
B
That's.
- [85:22]
A
That's. But it's the same thing. It's like working out in the gym and every day going, how am I?
- [85:27]
B
Yeah, how.
- [85:28]
A
How am I. How am I looking? Or how many my. I'm on the scale every twice a day.
- [85:32]
B
The scale doesn't tell you anything about
- [85:34]
A
your checking your, like, investments every second. Like, how my stock. That's insane.
- [85:38]
B
What the hell's going on?
- [85:39]
A
You're not going to ever know. Just live your life and then, yeah, check back.
- [85:43]
B
You know, it's funny because I mentioned to you before I had the Ted. TED Talk last weekend.
- [85:50]
A
Yeah.
- [85:51]
B
And you know, there was there, like, my. My team was there taking pictures, and, you know, they took professional pictures as well. And there's a bunch of video that's not out yet, but you need to let the measuring stick be what the proof actually is. So you never know what you look like, because we're talking about fitness now. You don't know what your work even looks like until you look back at it and you see the finished product, which I don't think I'm a finished product by any means. But I saw the pictures on the stage and my. So my friend was making fun of me because I sent it to him. He's like, dude, do they put a muscle filter on you? He's like, what happened to you? I was like, I don't. I don't know. I'm just. It's every day, right? It's every day. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm, I'm actually blown away by what this looks like because I did not think that's what it was.
- [86:35]
A
Right.
- [86:37]
B
Because I didn't focus on it.
- [86:38]
A
Right. You know, and we have, we have body dysmorphia and, you know, cannot.
- [86:42]
B
Mine's bad.
- [86:43]
A
Can't evaluate.
- [86:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [86:45]
A
That's why I, like, when I don't, I don't even looking at myself, evaluating my work as an actor, you know, it used to make me insane when I was younger because I would watch stuff and I'd be so highly self critical. I literally had to go to a psychotherapist about it because I started to become very, very tense in my work as an actor because I was so self critical that I'd watch my goal that wasn't good, or, you know, so every time I get up to be like, oh, I'm gonna beat my own ass, but I'm trying to get better, I'm demanding, I'm tough on myself. I thought that was supposedly a good thing. And I, you know, went to this shrink, it was like, you're not allowed to do that anymore. He said, so every time you do a piece of work, whatever it is, a stage performance or a take on a, on a movie set or a audition or whatever, it ends, you take 10 seconds. What did I learn? Did I achieve what I wanted? Did I achieve what I set out to do? How did I. What can I learn from that? Okay, done. Never think about it again. Never think about it again. It was so hard, but I was like, it was like an extra. I had to. I was like, never think about it again. And what, what started happening was I became very disinterested in watching myself or even in evaluating what I did. It wasn't that it became not interesting to me. And what became interesting to me was the doing of it. Like, that was cool. Like, that was interesting. And also sometimes frustrating, like, oh, feeling. How do I find. But I was present in it, right? As opposed to it always being, how am I looking in the mirror? Or how's my, you know, measuring my whatever. You know, if you're a weightlifter or because you cannot be, it's not you. You're not a good judge of yourself.
- [88:26]
B
No, I, I'm clearly not. Like, I, I'm not.
- [88:29]
A
Sorry.
- [88:30]
B
You know, I mean, it just, it is one of those things, man. It doesn't equate to actually what's going on what reality is, but you can't.
- [88:37]
A
I think it's impossible to be if you do it constantly. Like, imagine what a terrible parent you would be.
- [88:42]
B
Oh, my God.
- [88:43]
A
If you were constantly evaluating your kid, like, how are you today? So how did school. So what, did you get this today? Did you get that today? How is your, you know, do, of course, that you destroy your child and. And you would have no joy in parenting. So we check in with our kids. Like, they're doing fine. That's all good. Yeah. Oh, the great. Yeah. That moment. Downside. Oh, bummer. You know what I mean? So. So how's it generally going? I get generally, it's going pretty good, you know.
- [89:08]
B
Yep.
- [89:09]
A
Is that. That's. Anyway that.
- [89:12]
B
I mean, I. I hear you, man. It's just important. I mean, I think the. The. The moral of everything we're saying is just. Just do the thing, man. Do what you love to do, and if you don't have the opportunity to do what you love to do full time, do something else, but also do what you love as well.
- [89:26]
A
Yeah. Do what you have to do to do what you want. Yeah.
- [89:28]
B
That's what I was trying to say. Like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You took the words right out of my mouth. But I mean, I just think it's important because we have to enjoy this life. We get one shot. One shot. And I found what I love to do when I was 42 years old. Was 42, dude. So I'm almost 48. Yeah. And you know, I could sit here and say, I'm so fucking behind.
- [89:50]
A
No, I could.
- [89:51]
B
I mean, exactly. Right. I was like, I don't know. Right.
- [89:54]
A
I would say you're ahead.
- [89:55]
B
Well, yeah. I mean.
- [89:56]
A
Or you're where you are, but.
- [89:58]
B
Right.
- [89:58]
A
But it's like, that's a beautiful thing to have found something. Yeah.
- [90:01]
B
Like, I truly enjoy. Like, and. And I know I would do it for free if I had the opportunity, because I did it for free for almost four freaking years. It took that long.
- [90:10]
A
Yeah.
- [90:11]
B
And you know, it was just something that I loved so much. It's like, oh, man. Like, I love this more than I love to play baseball.
- [90:17]
A
Wow.
- [90:18]
B
And that's. And when do. When I said that to my. My. My wife and my son, My son shot like this and said, what did you say? I go, it's not even close, bro.
- [90:30]
A
Wow.
- [90:30]
B
It's not even close. Baseball is my first love, and she's still my mistress. You put me on a baseball field. I don't want to be around any of you people.
- [90:37]
A
Right.
- [90:37]
B
Like, I can go hide there. I will literally hide on a baseball field and enjoy myself. But this is just better. Yeah, I just love it. I love it so much, dude. Thank you so much, Tony. This has been so much fun.
- [90:49]
A
Sounds so fun. Yeah.
- [90:50]
B
We have to keep in touch and, you know, I'm definitely going to come to the Broadway.
- [90:53]
A
Definitely do. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully later this year, you know, it's
- [90:57]
B
going to be in 26, or is it going to be 27?
- [90:58]
A
It depends on. We're. We're now trying to find out when the theater is available, because that's the game of. Yeah, I bet Broadway. You know, what's going to close, what's going to be. So we're trying to find the right space for it, but. But it all looks. All looks good.
- [91:09]
B
So I will be there with bells on.
- [91:11]
A
Yeah.
- [91:11]
B
Well, I want to go to the. The opening night. That. Okay. I want. I want to go to that.
- [91:15]
A
Stay in touch. Yeah, for sure. That'd be really cool.
- [91:18]
B
Thank you. Well, thank you again, bud. Like, this has been a real treat and such an open and honest conversation.
- [91:25]
A
Yeah, your show's great, man. That was really a cool conversation.
- [91:27]
B
Thank you. I love your show, too.
- [91:28]
A
Thanks.
- [91:28]
B
I do watch it. I do watch it. I'm proud of what you and your daughter Anna are doing together. That's really, really freaking cool, man.
- [91:34]
A
Cool, man. We'll check out Far from the Tree.
- [91:36]
B
Far from the Tree. And we'll. You know what we'll do is I will make sure that they link that.
- [91:42]
A
Oh, that'd be amazing.
- [91:43]
B
I can link it in the show notes at the bottom of everything. They check out Far from the Tree and anything I can do, man. Like, we have each other's numbers now. Just. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. This is a completely different industry, you know, and there's. There's a lot of things that are moving constantly.
- [91:58]
A
Yeah. I might hit you up for some advice.
- [91:59]
B
Yeah, anytime.
- [92:00]
A
Because I'm always like, what are we doing?
- [92:02]
B
Any dude, any freaking time. Open invite. I would be more than honored to help out. So.
- [92:08]
A
Great. Great.
- [92:09]
B
All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. Share this episode with somebody. You know, love and trust. A lot of great advice from Tony on, you know, persevering through hard times with your career and even parenting, so. And also, you know, second chapters and starting new things and doing fun things with your children. So I. I thank you guys so much. And what I really want you guys to do is share this episode with everybody. You know, love and trust. And until next time, guys, stay determined. There's a reason Chevy trucks are known for their dependability. It's because they show up no matter the weather, push forward no matter the terrain and deliver. That's why Chevrolet has earned more dependability awards for trucks than any other brand in 2025, according to J.D.
- [92:53]
A
power.
- [92:54]
B
Because in every Chevy truck, like every Chevy driver, dependability comes standard. Visit Chevy.com to learn more. Chevrolet received the highest total number of awards among all trucks in the J.D. power 2025 U.S. vehicle Dependability Study Awards based on 2022 models. Newer models may be shown. Visit J.D. power.com awards for more details. Chevrolet Together, Let's Drive Ever walk past a place for rent and wish you could just take a peek inside? Maybe even explore the layout? Envision the natural light streaming through the windows, or plan where your vinyl record collection would go. At apartments.com you can. With tools like their 3D virtual tours,
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A
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B
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